BIP47, AUTH47, PayNyms & More!

Hello. Welcome to Freedom Tech Friday, a weekly live and interactive show hosted on the Ungovernmental Misfits feed. We're live on x, Nosta when it works, YouTube, Rumble, and Twitch feeds.

We go live for one hour every Friday at 9AM eastern and 2PM UK time. But you can also catch up later on the Ungovernable Misfits feed. On Freedom Tech Friday, we like to cover the latest news trends for anything related to Freedom Technologies.

That could be anything from Bitcoin, Monero, encrypted messengers, privacy tools, and anything in between. Essentially, if there's a news item, tool, or topic that can help you take back some control in today's digital panopticon, we want to talk about it.

My name is Max, and today, I'm joined by my good friends, Max Tannehill and Jordan. This is a live interactive show. You can help steer the conversation by commenting live or with presubmitted questions, topics on socials, boosting the show via podcasting two point o apps,

sending tips, or sharing the show. Top support from last week's show, the Open Claw Paradigm Shift or Slop Hype, was from Riven Stokes who sent 500 sats and said, so it's like Siri but with an LLM model attached.

Thank you for your support, mate. Also, WebWipe in association with Bitcoin Bay will be having a privacy pop up in Tampa, downtown Gay Florida. Is that right? Gay Pete, Florida. Want to go and meet others looking to up their privacy game.

They'll discuss different privacy tools using Monero, Bitcoin VPNs, Tor, private messengers, and more. They have some swag too. Join them tonight from 6PM at the Tampa Bay Innovation Center 1101 4th Street.

So without further ado, let's dive into the show. Max, Jordan, how are we doing, gents? Doing well. Yeah. Doing good. Nice to chat to you again. It feels like it's been a long time. So, yeah, obviously, we kinda chat on a on on group chats, but, yeah, to to do any kind of podcast or anything in a while. So, yeah, it's good to chat again.

That's because Gabriel Hoggs yelled himself. Selfish. I've noticed that when those podcasts stopped, it was the end of end of Bitcoin culture, and, you know, the price went down, and, you know, AI took over, you see.

Yeah.

Very true. Well, today, we're talking about bit 47 pay NIMs. And I think the best thing to do for anyone who's new to this topic is, maybe Jordan, in plain English, you could jump into this and explain what we're talking about today.

So what we're talking about, it's been around for a long time, obviously. Right? Payment codes, bit 47. People probably know it, mostly from Samurai Wallet, Sparrow Wallet, and a few others that we'll get into a little bit later.

But this whole conversation arises because I've created a new website that could kinda be the hub for developers, noobs, and power users alike. And I'm hoping it can kind of extend on top of what, Pavel's done with the Dojo open source project website

and just starting to make things more clear for people and and give them a place where they can go and get more information. So much of the stuff that is in this space is scattered around, you know, maybe a document from, like, 2017 will tell you all everything you need to know, but it's hard to find, etcetera.

So we're kinda just gonna go through that today and, you know, maybe touch a little bit more on, like, the tech the technical, side of it as well and maybe use, Max Tannehill here as a resource to kind of explain that because I'm a little bit ratted.

But A little bit ratted? What the fuck does that mean? Well, that's what Ottawa always says. So you know? I think it's like a Okay. But it's a polite way of saying, isn't it? Okay. Don't know. I think I prefer retarded. It's Retarded.

That's true. I think I I like retarded. It's just such a nice word to say. It feels good. Yeah. So, before I forget or anything, I had a bunch of help from a a number of people just kinda giving me input.

So, obviously, Max Tannehill, Vibrant, Kordic. Hey, Kordic. I see you in the chat.

Otto Pavel. And, you know, if I didn't name you, I'm sorry. But yeah. Thank you so much for all your help. I appreciate all the input. One other thing I should mention is that, you know, I was always scouring and and trying to get my hands on a lot of documentation and whatnot because I was running into problems

implementing certain things because I've been working on an implementation of pay names in BlueWallet. And, you know, it was one of those things that I didn't want to, you know, obviously bother anyone or, you know, ask the BlueWallet team to do this.

Because, one, I'm not sure if they, are fully on board with it, or I hope they like it. But,

you know, so I just tried to take that task on myself. And, you know, I I encountered a few problems, and I I think I have all the information collected into a nice package. So if anyone wanted to, you know, do some extra work on Stack Wallet or, you know, any other wallet that they're a power user of and and would like to see these

kind of things in those wallets, that they could maybe take that task on with, you know, AI tools and the like.

Yeah. I'm just gonna add to this actually. Like, few kind of few thoughts for from from my side is, you know, like, obviously, kind of, you know, with the samurai guys doing time at the main and then being out of the picture, aside from just the obvious kind of issue of just, you know, general kind of,

you know, attitude towards privacy tech and they're being a bit of a kind of punch in the gut for a lot of people. Like, there's a real kind of impact to the kind of the community here.

The Telegram groups aren't as active as they obviously used to used to be. And for the obvious reason, there's no new software being released, really, on those Samurai groups except, of course, for Pavel.

It's a new dojo project. So you get kind of people coming in and, you know, asking questions. Typically, it's kind of of the recovery type. Right? And there is actually a ton of knowledge in those Telegram groups, and there's a ton of information.

And it's useful, and it's a good resource, but it's not really like, you know, it's not really like the kind of solid kind of resource that you need to build off. You know, it it it relied on being a very interactive chat.

I think it relied on having a very kind of active community, having both,

samurai and, like, T Dev around to answer questions. You could kinda get a feel for things. And I think, you know, one of the things that you realized, Jordan, right, is is that, you know, this all kinda came about because you're looking at, like, you know, how to you know, because Bit Blue Wallet already has Bit 47,

you know, with kind of varying degrees of support as we kind of realized as we kind of tested it. But, you know, paintings isn't in that. And then when you start looking at kind of what it takes to to get to get involved, you can kind of do with, hey, you know, it'd be good to have an API to to access documentation,

Some basic flow diagrams because, you know, if you're if you're a a developer or or or not even developer, like, even if you're like a kind of a business guy and you wanna get an idea of whether to build on something, you know, you're gonna take a look at API documentation workflow

and and look for open standards that you can do. And let's be honest, like, no one's really gonna do that if it's all kinda hidden away in a in a telegram group where you're gonna kinda go through it.

So, you know, I, for one, like, it's it's awesome to see, like, this stuff go go into a website, and I hope as well that from my perspective, it kind of is a bit of an inspiration for others. You know, if yeah. For example, Soroban,

you know, there's always other tools out there that are somewhat open standards that could be built upon. You know, I kinda hope that a similar thing goes ahead wherever it just kinda takes a piece of what they're interested in and what they wanna focus on and do the same here. But, yeah, yeah, I'll leave it at that.

But, yeah, I think it's it's a it's a really good solid foundational step for for for more people to build.

Yeah. I I agree. And especially, like, Soroban's a great point there. I I would love to see the documentation on that. And, you know, whoever's got it, please send it to me because I'd like to look at it.

Max, bit by bit, is there anything you wanted to add before I start going into the screen share? No. I wanna see it. I wanna see it's it's very rare you do a thing, and it sounds like you've done a very cool thing. So let's see it, mate.

Well, I said I'll let that happen. Yeah. Exactly. You gotta keep this guy in line.

Alright. So everyone tell me if you can see this. Mhmm. Mhmm. K. Great. Nice. It's gonna be a little diff difficult for me. Just to let everyone know, like, expatriotic told me to install Mantaro as my operating system.

Oh my god. On PopOS, I used to have this really nice thing where I could snap the windows to each side of the screen. And so I could do things you know, two things at once. But with Mounjaro, I can't even do that, so I have to click between the tabs.

So thanks thanks, expatriotic. He's obsessed with that. It's all I ever see him talk about. Oh, and and now he doesn't even run it anymore. He'd bailed. Do you know what? He should be a real man and and run a Mac.

Yeah. I'm gonna be doing that. It's always tough, though, to find a find a Linux guy that sticks to the same distro It doesn't help between

So we have the Bit 47 Paynames hub here. So a pretty simple, you know, layout here.

I have the four four card or sorry. Well, six cards here. And, so each one, we can kinda go through them, step by step. And, you know, obviously, I have a wallet ready to go to kinda show everything that how how it works.

You can see along the bottom here, I have a supported by. So, obviously, you know, Samurai Wallet still works to this day. So you can use these features with it still. Spero, BlueWallet, you know, with their bit 47 implementation, Stack Wallet, Ashigaru, which is the the wallet that I use,

And supported by, we also have LinkCoin and MyNimbox. MyNimbox can take payments using Bit 47 payment codes, and LinkCoin does payouts via Bit 47 payment codes, which I've been using since 2022.

I And so I'm a very happy user. I don't think they still offer it. I'm sure I saw a barn liner whinging about it that it's only if your grandfather didn't. It's only if you were using it.

I don't think it's available. Is it? Okay. Fine. Yeah. Sorry, Mehdi. Sorry. Sorry, fridge. Don't fuck. Don't fuck with the fridge. Sorry, mate. And then hopefully, you know, with this sorry. Go ahead, Max. I just say, just go to show, you you dare not not support this stuff. Otherwise, you're gonna get called out on this show.

Yeah.

Yeah. Especially if you had it before too. You can't. Okay. Even if you're a sponsor, you still you still get you still get some flames thrown your way. And, hopefully, with this website,

you know, Nima and Mehdi can look at, you know, how auth 47 works here. And maybe they can implement that on their side as well. Mhmm. So that was one of the things I had going through my mind as I was making the site.

So, yeah, hope maybe there might be some cool updates in the future on that front. Sorry. I'm just Are there any the wallet here. We go further, are there any other wallets that are discussing the option of integrating this or

or people working on doing this at the moment? I know there's been a few things mentioned, but I don't know what's sort of like public knowledge and what's not. I I have some thoughts on it.

It seems like in the wallet space a lot lately, it's going into a lot of, you know, not spending practices. So it's more focused on, like, multisigs and cold storage. Whereas, like, you know, from my perspective, you know, I use my wallet for, like, day to day spending and and yada yada. And so, like, it almost seems like there's a each

of these wallets is kind of fulfilling, a micro use case almost. I I don't know. Tannehill, do you see it the same way? Yeah. I mean, so yeah. I don't I don't really wanna kinda throw shade on some folk as well because, like, you know, I think it's probably worth just doing a kinda quick shout out. I saw another wallet get developed

recently. I haven't downloaded it, but it's a fellow I follow. I'm sure you've seen him as well. I think Aion DTC, and he's released a wallet called now I don't know how to pronounce it. It's one of these words I see written down and I saw Ibis. Yeah. This. Yeah. Mhmm.

And like, look, I mean, like, I think one thing I just kinda said on on the group chat and, you know, obviously, with all the new software that comes out, especially, like, the Bitcoin signing software, you wanna be a bit careful with it.

You know, you I've you know, ideally, you want it reviewed and all that and, you know, yes, it can be open source and all that, but you still kind of you need to be careful.

And, of course, you know, you also wanna be kinda sure that there's, a bit of a team to maintain it, you know, and all that. But, like, really cool and encouraging that that someone's gone out and said, right. You know, the wallets don't do what I want. You know, I'm gonna build this add this feature.

But what I would also say though, Jordan, is you're absolutely right. There's a lot that are kind of fulfilling the just a kind of a bit more of a niche use case. And I would say amongst the Bitcoin side, there's there's fewer that are doing that kind of, as you say, that kind of spend

and and privacy aspect and kind of, obviously, there's kind of pretty obvious reasons why people aren't really going going gnarly on all the on the privacy side because of, you know, the potential issues that come with that.

But, yeah, there's a lot that are kind of trying to do this kind of it hasn't really changed that much, but going back to what was probably pioneered by Armory and then later Electrum with this whole idea of, you know, multisig and and having a vault there.

And so I I know this this wallet does some of that, like, Electrum protocol. Yeah. It would be kinda cool to see if you have them, you know, adopt some of these standards because, you know, if you've gone ahead and created a wallet and you're managing the keys for that,

you know, if you're if you are dealing with other you know, paying other people or logging into sites that you're gonna use this wallet with, then it saves you having an extra pair, you know, set credentials to manage and you can just use the the key management and the whole identity aspect with this as well.

But, yeah, it's it's very it's definitely kind of heading that way of, like, there's a lot more focus on multisig. And I think as well with the since Taproot, like, some of the kind of the new wallets that are coming out and the ones that which, you know, I know Jordan and I have played around with you.

Yeah. Unsuccessfully, to be honest. But in principle, though my experience and practice hasn't been great, I'm actually fairly positive about Frost

as a as a kind of concept just because, you know, there's there's some good promises around key management there, although kind of UX in actual wallets and the complexity of managing those keys is a whole another thing.

Yeah. No. It is really sweet, and the being able to, like, swap out keys, like, you know, so easily. You know, in practice, not the easiest, but on paper, it looks pretty sweet. What happened to that fro was it frost snap where they were using, like, different hardware signers and you, like, link them together,

and then that would create a multisig? Do you remember that project? I think yes. I think it's still going. I I I'm gonna I'm gonna say this. I'm gonna feel bad saying it, but I just kinda look at that and think of, like, a human centipede kind of thing when I see those things

done together. That's exactly what I thought. I just couldn't think of the the name of the film.

Yeah. I've never seen it. It's just kinda one of those urban urban legends that kind of, you know, we talked about when I was at school because I was I was too young probably to ever kinda get there, which is really unfortunate that that jumps into my head, but I'm pretty sure it's a generational and probably probably a kind of

bloody old thing or whatever that we associate that with. I would never put that in writing. I'm pretty sure that those guys are a really good team. Yeah. They don't deserve that. They don't deserve that.

They don't deserve them. Let let them cook. Let them build that wallet. But as far as I know, people done orders. I don't know if they've received them yet. Yes. I know Katan. Yeah. So it's really cool, and they will do it properly for sure.

Yeah. The seeing the UX behind it look looks really simple too. Like, I mean yeah. You could talk about the aesthetics. Right? But, you know, the way it works and operates, I'm pretty impressed.

They could just do a a slight update. They could do a two point o and rather than human centipede like ass interface ones, they could just do side by side snap, then people would have less of a a filthy mind.

Yeah. I'm sure. I'm I'm sure it it would it would trigger someone else's Aesthetic. But,

like, I mean yeah. I I know this whole this whole session today was supposed to yeah. It is will continue to be about bit 47 payments, but it's like it is it is an interesting thing, though, the whole frost that I wanna say on it is, like, I don't think people realize, like, in my opinion, how much multisig sucks right now.

And this is also why I've also been kind of quiet. Like, I'm quite vocal in entire group where, obviously, that supports multisig and Craig's, like, a multisig guy. But I'm kinda quite like, hey, guys. Unless you really need it, just use a, you know, c phrase and and pass phrase.

But, you know, like, I have a major issue with multisig now in the fact that, you know, while it suggest that you can do key rotation, and then they're like, oh, yeah. You know, you can rotate one of your keys, and then your your wallet address has changed.

And you're like, hang on. That's not rotating keys. That's changing the entire wallet.

You know? And I think that's an unacceptable kind of way. I mean, you think about, like, just compute you know, doing any kind of security key management or anything like that. No one does something like where, you know, oh, I've gotta go and get a new laptop when I change my password.

No one goes and deletes their entire, like, Gmail when they change their authenticator app or something like that. And when you change your wallet, like, when you change dresses, you know, that's where your transaction's going. If you got a lot of UTXOs, that's a cost to move your wallet. So, like, the promise of having,

you know, some some form of threshold signing, but with a way to actually remove keys and and add them and without changing the underlying addresses and the transactions is is very powerful.

And I think, you know, I think people are gonna realize, like, how useful it is at the moment. Like, there is a wallet that implements that well, and I think there's unfortunately way too many guys, you know, doing their setups in a way because they they've been convinced of the security benefits

leading to some pretty confusing UX and some extensive and difficult wallet transitions

with the existing kind of multisig setups now. Like, it's, you know, it's not really ideal. I mean, actual fact, I mean, on the enterprise side, just before before you let anyone that's a multisig maxi in Bitcoin tell you that, oh, yeah. Yeah. It's fine, and that should be used.

Like, I've worked in, like, an enterprise multisig, and I tell you now that they will actually either keep a multisig key in an HSM where they can actually rotate shimmer shards of that key share, or they'll actually even use, like, software to actually shimmer it separately on, like, a on an air gapped wallet.

And that way, they can kinda manage personnel in an enterprise in a way of, you know, being able to have someone join the company, you know, can operate in a signing fashion and then leave later without compromising or worrying on that company's material.

What about So kinda like things like expanding or degrading multisix, like things like the honor when you're doing, like, business stuff and you got people leaving or or or joining. Have you got any thoughts on that outside of, like, you have to spend whatever it is every 14?

And then we will get back to bit 47, but, like, definitely do that. But but any thoughts on it?

I mean, I I'm not familiar with with Liana. I've not, like, used that wallet. But if it's, you know, one of the existing multisix at the moment where you've got, like, a fixed set of keys, then you actually can't really afford, in my opinion, to leave a key with any one of your individuals.

No. It's not fixed. It's it's expanding. So you have to sign every or, like, use the wallet every fifteen months or something like that. And then if you Oh, right. If if you do use it, you stay with either your single key or or two keys. But if you don't, then a third key or have you have it set up that you have,

that isn't currently one that you can sign with now becomes, signable. So you could still lose one or rotate out of one, and you can add another member, or you could use it for, like, inheritance stuff. So it's like Right. Alright. This key is useless. I give it to my son.

So if I get hit by a bus, they've got it, but they can't go and get a drug problem and go and spend it all because they don't have access. But if I don't sign for fifteen months, you can assume that I'm dead, and now you have access.

I mean, just one thing just to ask here. Like, if you do decide to change the keys at all, do you change all the addresses, or is the kind of the nature of I think you have to I think you have to spend each UTXO that's in there. So it wouldn't really be like a spending wallet. It'd be like a

I guess, like a company might have it as their as their kind of treasure chest or, you know, you might have it as your inheritance or something like that. But if you fuck up and you lose a key, you still have that backup because it's degrading down to one or it's expanding out to another. So where multisig

could fall over in that in that way or, like, a single sig could fall over in that way, it's, like, slightly more adaptable, it seems. Yeah. I look. I can see the point. I just think that, like, when I dealt with people, like, you know,

when people are wanting to use, like, any kind of enterprise wallet or something like that, then, like, you're they're they're looking for and it would a lot would depend on the UX,

but you really got if you do these things properly, you gotta do it in a way where someone can, like can actually imagine having a company where it's founded by two people.

In either way, you've actually gotta be able to have that survive those two original people leaving and then new people joining and still being able to follow in the next room and do that.

And I think, yeah, for something like a saving wallet where it's not being used that much, and if there is this kind of idea of after so many months, people do it.

I just you know, I've seen kind of user issues where, like, people just forget how to use it, and you should document it and maybe have some videos and maybe some customer support might might assist. But, like, I'm not I'm not I don't like that approach massively.

Like, yeah, it's I think, ideally, you wanna abstract the keys as much as possible away from from from people and not have them kinda have to deal with that kind of stuff. And, like, I say, from my opinion, the idea of having anything where, you know, you retire a key from a wallet and then change move UTXOs and change that is

is a pretty pretty bad UX. Yeah. Just yeah. I wouldn't wouldn't be keeping that. I think, you know, yeah, you you kind of, you know, sure you want, like, people to leave and join and and shift changes, yeah, like, ideally not change the actual keys themselves or the wallet.

Yeah. Into our our original discussion. I don't know that we really covered why bit 47 could be useful for people and having, like, one pay NIM,

to rule the wall kind of thing. I think that might be good thing to cover either Jordan or Max, like, for anyone who's listening and, like, what the fuck are these guys talking about? Why are pay NIMs useful and why is it a problem to reuse addresses, and how does this this help in that way? Like, why would anyone bother

listening to this discussion or or using this stuff?

You wanna go ahead on that one, Max? And then I'll just I can give some examples afterwards. Yeah. I'll do a quick one. So, you know, I I can get, you give you a few examples. Like, I know for one, from from the guys that, for example, used to work, they would get paid to their pay names.

So what that would enable is, you know, you as a as a doing payroll, for example, you don't need to go out to every user and say on the kind of the last day of the month or whatever it is you pay and say, like, you know, how you give me a fresh address so I don't keep on paying to the same address, which is, you know, poor for privacy.

And you're not having to ask your employees, you know, can you run like a BTC pay server or give me, like, manually, like, a whole bunch of addresses? It it gets pretty clumsy. And so if you're using a wallet like Sparrow, like Samurai, or like Ashigaru,

it's pretty neat. You can, like, make a payment to somebody you've done a repeat payment to. Do that bit 47 code, which isn't like a regular Bitcoin address. It's like a combination of two public keys or rather public key and a private key,

and it and it resolves different addresses. And your wallet will contain like a local index and effectively kind of manage its own x pub almost and be able to pay that. So it's kind of really good for for payroll.

I actually used it when I was running Mimushi as well. It was like it's actually a fairly popular method of payment. I did have, like, a range of payment methods. I supported Monero. I supported I had BTC pay server. I had another kind of before I did my own BTC pay server, I had, a,

like, a kind of cheap plug in. When I say cheap, it's actually free plug in that work with a payment processor. I could put in an x pub and just provide users with the fresh addresses. One of the nice things is is, like, for for certain users that are bit more privacy conscious,

when you pay, like, you imagine if you're paying someone's BCC pay server, you know, yeah, it's kind of private. You get a fresh address every time, but that BCC pay server is almost always hosted on someone's VPS and that's gonna be sitting on, like, maybe a digital ocean node or something like that. And sure you can pick a good VPS

that may not get, like, surveilled or whatever. But I can tell you now, like, my one, I'm pretty sure was was on a digital ocean in Singapore. So for example, you know, if you're if you if you wanna pay my business

with an address there, anyone that's got access to that server is gonna be able to access and see the the, you know, the actual the addresses that are being used for payments, you know, there. Whereas if you pay for bit 47, I used to just I amended manually to check out there.

Anyone that paid me the bit 47 addresses on the website, which was hosted in The US at the time, but no one could see what was actually, aside from the person who's paying me, the actual the actual actual address they actually paid to because only the sender

that made the payment could actually resolve the the Bitcoin address themselves. So for some users, I would get, like, I'd be selling phones and I'd get like a and it was quite often I'd a mailbox, an obvious name that was a pseudonym and they pay with a pay name. And, you know, it it meant that they could, you know, get

make it make it a payment in a in a way that was really, you know, not, you know, not surveilled or kind of obvious with what they're trying to do. So, you know, pretty pretty useful sort of kind of methods of payment from my perspective there. But, yeah, Jordan, if you got any others?

Yeah. Way to go on that one. That was perfect. What I I use it very often. And so one of them is BTC Wrestle will contact me when Monero is peaking on the charts, and he'll be like, oh, I'll I'll sell you some Monero.

And so I end up having to sell sell him some Bitcoin, and then, yeah. But I I do that all through Paynim, and I I mentioned the LingQoin, use case earlier. So, you know, that's been That's a big one. Like, four years now, getting payments. Like, it's about every month.

Yeah. Because that was a fucking that was a massive pain in the ass if you're mining. Yeah. Then every time you get a payout, you've gotta, like, log in, get a fresh address,

put it on there, then they send it, then you ought to do it again and again. And the truth is that most people just couldn't be asked, and they just reused addresses. Like, so many people just reused addresses because they either didn't know or couldn't be bothered or forgot.

And then you have to pay them, and it just works. On, before I was with Linkcoin, I was mining with brains. And, yeah, just, like, going, putting it, changing the address. You know? And that was when you were getting, like, pay pails, like, more often.

Like, even with an s nine, like, it was just like And, Jordan Jordan, on that, did did you were you aware because I've not mined at all? Were any miners taking, like, x pubs like Swan did for a while where they would support a a payout and stuff?

I hadn't noticed that. I know with brains, was just, like, single addresses. Like, you just, like, go and change it and then yeah. But that's wild. Just just put your x Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's worth kind of pointing out as well because I think a lot of people, you know, I think made apologies for the expub process with Swan,

and it was kinda done with the best intentions. Yeah. I genuinely believe,

but it was such a flawed way of handling that process because, you know, like, when you when you ask for an XPub, it's very easy for people that aren't entirely familiar with what they're doing to send to put in an XPub into, like, an exchange or if it was a minor, one that's actually fairly sensitive.

And then secondly, like, unless you've kinda got this capability where you're very rigorous, where this XPub is completely kinda tied, just this one entity, you know, you're still basically providing, an entity that's, you know, particularly gonna be a corporate entity.

We're just a way to derive all thousands of addresses that you have. And, like, you know, if you were to use that to then do further spends,

you know, or anything like, you know, that and import it into a into a wallet, very easy to just kind of end up just kind of basically doxing your entire transaction history to someone that's, you know, that's making payouts. But whereas if they've actually got a code for you, then, you know, they're just gonna maintain only an index

that they can send Bitcoin to. And once you receive it and then you spend it and it goes to a change address, you know, any other UTXOs, it's completely segregated from the rest of your wallet. So it's a it's a really clean solution, bit 47

from that perspective. And so here, certainly, like anyone that's just an x part of it, it's like it's it's super clumsy. Obviously, the single dress one is is horrendous. Yeah. And and the other aspect of it too is, like, you know, even if you're you know, I I don't wanna KYC exchanges. Right? Like, let's just say,

getting paid out to an address. Like, even if you had, like, DIP 47 in that instance too, like, that's still it's still there's advantages there, you know, obviously. On the KYC side, there's no advantage, but at least, you know, these addresses are Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I got to check this out here.

Look at that one, Tannehill. It's got all your favorite words in there. Multi six and or MPC using all 47 and Soroban would be cool. Yeah. I don't know who who who actually put that question in.

That was a crypto privacy tracker. Oh, okay. Cool site, by the way. Yeah. Like, fucking awesome to see that site. I'm happy to see that. I'm not entirely sure who's behind it. I think I know. But either way, it's not important. The tool's cool, and it's great to see.

I was gonna say, so, like, one thing to to point out, and, you know, this is kind of part of the challenge with a lot of these schemes and also why why you can see that often people just go just just use Monero, for example, is like multisig isn't, like, compatible with bit 47 because with bit 47, you know, you've got a,

like, a kind of a specific derivation path to that notification address that you've got, which is, you know, very, very specific to a single signature away. And, yeah, it's interesting you say something like MPC.

I've would love to see something like MPC being used with with something like a kind of Samurai or Ashigaru wallet and, you know, or like a bit 47 or anything like that. But one of the disappointments I've kind of had is when I started working companies, it's an MPC.

Without getting too technical, and it's not because I'm trying to keep things simple. It's just my general technical understanding isn't that great. But one of the things that you'll see with MPC just worth keeping in mind is is that the derivation for MPC wallets is typically different to single signature wallets.

Super similar in terms of having, like, a bit for type model, but they actually don't tend to use hardened derivation, and that's to do with the kind of the calculation on MPC. Like, the method of doing, like, the secret sharing is really slow if you're to do it on hardened derivation.

So if you look, and again, like on MPC, it's a bit more common on, like, the enterprise wallets. But you'll see those. And you'll actually if you kind of go into someone's like API or docs on the site, you'll actually notice it's typically done on a 44 derivation path and it's not hardened.

So yeah. Like, it's a bit it's gonna be a challenge if you're gonna hope to see a kind of an NPC wallet combined with something like a, you know, a bit 47, unfortunately. So, yeah, I think like a lot of things that we have here, we're gonna be using, like, very specific tools

to to do with very specific things. So you'll have something like an online wallet,

like a kind of action diary or something like that, which you will authenticate with, you'll receive to. But then if you're gonna use within an organization or anything like that, then and you wanna use multisick, you're gonna use a separate wallet stack to handle that.

Ten four?

Yeah. Maybe it is cryptography advancements and things like that. I know it's not impossible to do, like, a hardened derivation in MPC, but there are kind of complexities and, you know, depends on on, like, on the wallet on the cryptographers and the wallet providers that are out there.

There are a lot of different types of schemes and, you know, the other thing that kind of determines the complexity of all this is the type of thresholds there are. So from at least my kind of slightly non technical understanding, if you're gonna do like a two party MPC,

then that will you'll actually kinda see that described even many years ago. People were kind of exploring that as an alternative way of doing lightning. Rather than doing a two of two multisig, they could have done like a, you know, two party ECDSA as it'll be hold.

That that was being explored, and there's actually a very good blog post on, you know, actually, you know, because MPC sometimes gets a bit of a a rough reputation for complexity, and and there's been some historical vulnerabilities and some limitations,

that would tier two is fairly straightforward. But if you're gonna start doing threshold, like two or three, three or five, then, like, the rounds of communication get more complex, the secret sharing is more complex, And that's when something like the hardened derivation, you know, becomes a bit more of a challenge.

And, you know, without getting too much into this, but for, you know, a lot of Bitcoin is especially if you've using Bitcoin last few years, you won't even really be aware, I don't wouldn't think for a lot of folk about wallets that had hardened and non hardened derivation.

But, like, there are real security benefits when you're managing a single key to having hardened derivation because, you know, it was something that, I remember the tracer guys, managed to kind of, you know, like, do a kind of an interesting I think it was either a blog post or they did like a challenge, online.

But effectively, you know, there was almost like a kind of it's not an exploit, but if you use a non hardened derivation wallet, for example, if you ever expose one of your child private keys your

public key your master public keys, the whole wallet is known, If you combine those, then you can actually derive all of the child master keys in your wallet. So, yeah, you've gotta be really careful when you handle key material.

Whereas, like, pretty much all the wallets you see now that are kind of very much standard that using, you know, bit 44 and bit 84

and foot bit segwit and all that, those are gonna be hardened derivations. So if you were, for example, to expose a private key for, you know, like maybe make a paper wallet or something like that or you're gonna know, maybe you've got like a UTXO that you wanna claim a forked coin in, you know, like, you know,

there's been talk of that. Right? You really gotta be careful if, for example, what you're doing, which is something that maybe, you know, captures your your master public key if you're dealing with a non harm derivation.

Yeah, it's like some pretty kinda horrible gotchas there with stuff, and it's kinda sometimes the reason you you see certain things are not, you know, enabled in a wallet. Yeah. Wow. I knew that MPC question was gonna get you going.

That's your love language. Yeah. So,

Boys, should we should we dive in? Yeah. Do I show you all 40 I think they're all 47 specifically as well. Obviously, there's other stuff, but think that you definitely wanna kinda show that as well. That's what it's called.

Okay. Well, we'll go back to the screen share here. Everyone keep piling your questions in.

Oh, and crypto privacy tracker is making notes on, you know, what Max had said there. So stay tuned. Great website, by the way. Really is.

So

sorry. My tabs here. K. So we have the BIP 47 and PNIM's hub.

And so auth 47 is something that I've been dinking around with for, you know, a few years now. You know, just kinda revisiting it now and then and bugging Pavel and being like, oh, I don't know how this works. Like, I don't understand the challenge response and and whatnot. So what I did here was strictly make a demo,

and this is, you know, for users and developers alike that, you know, you go here and you could see, you know, who supports off 47. So you can tell right now that the, products and companies that were on the first page are not all represented here because

they have a certain amount of involvement with bit 47 payment codes and the extensibility that's been developed after. One that's had it for a long time is the Bitcoin company. And, you know, so I still use them for for gift cards all the time.

And so it's always fun just being able to, you know, log in with your off 47 and then, you know, pay with the same wallet as well. Obviously, Sparrow. So they have you know, if the auth 47 link is clickable on your desktop, it opens up Sparrow automatically.

And I've made the links all clickable, for mobile so that you can pop it up in Samurai and Ashigaru. And so there's instructions down here. You know, obviously, it's pretty straightforward.

You know, you're just gonna generate the, QR code. And I kinda have everything listed out too So you can see what the whole, auth 47 URI is composed of. Obviously, users don't really care, about that. But, you know, for a developer, you can kinda see how everything's laid out.

One of the problems that I had in setting some of this stuff up sometimes is, you know, like, what should the callback URL look like? Is the nonce correct, etcetera, etcetera. And then, obviously, you have your expiry time and, you know, there's things that you have to include in these URLs that make them valid

for the challenge response scheme. So now that I have the wallet open, I'm just going to scan it and authenticate.

And there we go. So simple challenge response. And, there you go. And, obviously, you can see, like, my my payment has been, communicated there. So you can see that pop up on the screen. And, you know, obviously, in any app, you could be using that and tying that back in with the whole scheme.

And I think just to be to make it, you know, just make it be kind of clearer to kinda what's happening for the user. Right? This is kinda similar from a perspective of, like, you know, how you kinda go to some sites and rather than setting up another username or a password, you click, like, log in with Google

and then just use your credentials. Like, this is the same way. And, you know, probably I should've given you this feedback before rather than saying now, but this all 47 supported by stuff that you got here. Like, the Bitcoin company is specifically a server side support. Right? You you log in to their account.

Yes. You know? There's Sparrow, Ashigarro, Samurai, like, they're the they're the wallet clients that you can use to authenticate with the server.

And, like, I don't know how many other places support, like, all 47 as a server, but it, like, it's not many. And I certainly think that there should be more, but I'm hoping that, like, all this amazing work you've done on the website would encourage more. But just off the top of my head, for example,

I know the new Ashigaru painting site, it's pretty limited what you can do, but, like, you can, like, once you are all 47 logged in, you can basically see your I think your followers or something or maybe both. So it's kind of like they've, you know, they've demonstrated, like, a way to use your your bit 47 login. And I know Samurai

Mhmm. Showing that on Twitter on the old Paym site, but I don't think it was ever actually kind of brought to production. And, of course, the other one, which I use quite often to to do a Bit 47 login sorry, all 47 login is with my Dojo DMT.

And that saves me Jeez. Awesome. Yeah. Like so yeah. Maybe, like, even we, you know, break this up so it's kinda like, you know, you can log in to these sites with all 47 here, the all 47 supportable clients, something like that. But, yeah, like, I mean, you know, would be great to great to see more sites,

like, host that. And I think, you know, the work you've done here Yeah. And, like, there's no, like, the part that I love about it the most, especially, like, you know, working with off 47 and what, there's, like, no tech debt.

It's a Yeah. It it could just become, like, a login method, and, you know, it's not, like, libraries and libraries of code that you need to parse through. It's, like, so simple.

Yeah. It can't be like, it can't be that difficult because it has been done in this in, you know, in in wallets and servers, and there hasn't been documentation. So, obviously, anyone that's kinda clearly motivated enough will work it out, but you really do wanna reduce the friction here.

Like, one thing I wanna say is, like, you know, a bit of a trip down memory lane, so apologies if I'm boring people. But, like, I think back to, like, now, almost ten years ago when I first got involved in Bitcoin.

And, like, a lot of this cryptography stuff was really, really new to me. And I remember Beauty on on Twitter telling me about BitID and BitOath where you could actually sign for a regular Bitcoin address and do, a kind of

it was called oh, shit. I'm forgetting the the name. But there was another protocol. It's a super similar tool. So it's something called I think it's called if my memory is not failing, I think it's a nice squirrel.

It pronounced squirrel. I'm just gonna Google it while I'm here or rather use Brave. I think it says QRL. So let's scroll. Yes. Secure, quick, reliable login. It was also secure QR login. Great like little name. But it was done like a kind of it's just, you know, similar to here

where you start with a private key, you sign on behalf for a private key with a challenge, and you can log in here. It was kind of seen as a way to avoid, like, obviously, having usernames and passwords.

But, like, you know, obviously, you have to get, like, is that that network that that network effect problem of of having to get, you know, popular sites to adopt your login. But once you use it and you reuse it, you're like, wow. Wow. It's brilliant. I don't have to kinda store passwords.

I'm always gonna keep, you know, hopefully, all my bit coin keys. It's not something I'm gonna lose. I'm gonna back those up. So, you know, you know, I'm not expecting North forty seven to to take over the world and, you know, be in all sorts of sites, but it certainly makes sense to include on on on Bitcoin and

and other kind of crypto sites where someone's going to be paying with a wallet, and it makes sense to to log in with their wallet and have that as their identity. Do you think this is a bit of a chicken and egg thing where it's not that many wallets and companies currently support it, and therefore

other companies aren't using it as login and everything else? Like, we suddenly saw this being used across, like, a lot more of the more commonly used wallets

and it becoming more normal, then people are gonna be like, oh, well, obviously, because people already have the a paying them and they kinda wanna log in like this, it's gonna become more of, an industry standard.

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I'm sure like, yeah, I'm interested to hear what Jordan thinks. But, yeah, I I definitely think that. And I also think that, you know, look, I think, you know, anyone that's been involved for Bitcoin long enough has has understands the the limitations of of mass adoption and appeal of our stuff.

And so I just think, you know and I think you'll see people anyway, just users get quite how to put it? They they're quite segregated with the tools that they use. You know, someone will kinda have, like, they'll keep WhatsApp for family chats, and they'll have signal for, you know, some

for some private chats with, you know, probably now more crypto friends or, you know, or they'll do it for work and Discord if gaming or god knows what they do on Discord. I I I shudder to think. But,

yeah, I mean, like, what I would what I would say here is just like and, like, this is where the I I think it's such a win that the Bitcoin company took it up. It's like, this is clearly a company that is gonna be marketing to Bitcoin people.

It's like, you know, you're gonna have a Bitcoin wallet. It doesn't make sense, at least in the initial try phase to try and get adoption with people that aren't Bitcoin users that would have these wallets. But for any of these services, you know, here's another one. Like, you know, if if you're operating like some kind of website with,

you know, maybe you've got like favorite coins or something like that. Obviously, you have to think about privacy things. But let let's say, you you know, we've all done things where you like log in to maybe a site and you have like a portfolio and favorites,

you know, or you have a new site with your favorite articles. You know, if there's crypto companies or whatever like that got services, you don't want to keep on asking people to set up new credentials. If you can give them a password,

sorry, you give them let them use their their password for their Bitcoin wallet to do that, then they're gonna be pretty happy to do that. And I would say, like, where this has kind of been a lot more successful in terms of widespread adoption, it's not as neat a protocol, but, like, it's had a lot of adoption, is WalletConnect,

which is more popular, which is on the EVM side. I think it's probably possibly works on stuff like Solana as well. But, you know, if you wanna go to something like web three event, you know, you know,

it's not unusual to, like, actually have something where you can kind of claim a free t shirt and get, you know may maybe this is back in the days when when there's more money in the industry, but you can claim a free t shirt and get airdropped in NFT

by, like, signing in with your with your WalletConnect. And it's kinda quite a good way to, like, cut out all the time wasters as well because, like, if you're kinda hosting the event, right, and you're doing it to, like, web three people,

you're like, well, don't want especially, I tell now, it's a problem in Singapore. You have an event, and you'll get literally, like, old aunties and uncles. They'll pop up and try and get free shit off you. If you're like, right. You got you got to log in via WalletConnect.

You're only gonna get, like, you know, as they're known, a to come there because they can actually functionally use a wallet. Like, you know, the stands are so low. If they if they can install base on their phone, it's like, cool. They're they're crypto.

So I just gotta get get rid of the freeloaders. Right? Like so so in the same No granny. Back to Bitcoin. Yeah. If you go back to Bitcoin, like, you know, Web Wipe or whatever is happening.

Like, you know, you could actually have stuff where, you know, you get people to authenticate who they are without obviously giving away their their credentials and, you know, log in, have favorites on sites. It's a really kind of it's a it's a sensible identity to have for Bitcoin. Yeah.

I keep on going tiny granny. We knew what we were getting inviting him on, didn't we? Yeah. Yeah. Hate speech. It's lucky you're not back in The UK, mate. You'd be arrested. He's geriatrics.

It's nuts. Yeah.

You got any questions? Like, from the chat? Yeah. Or from the chat or, like, pre submitted ones. No. We don't. It like, nothing really kind of applied to the whole conversation, so I just kinda just, like, you know Just one from the granny. Why do you hate me? So And I don't I don't need Max's opinion on Lightning. So, like, it'll just

it'll get too vicious at that point.

But yeah. So, yeah, while Max was talking there, I kinda went through some other demos as well going through the Bitcoin Bitcoin company, showing off paynim.rs. So, hopefully, everyone, got to see that too.

Nice. Yeah. So, the next one on the cards here, we have the Bit forty seven Lab. And I think I'll be adding to this in the future, so if anyone has ideas, just, like, let me know. But it was more of just, an interactive way of, like, dealing or looking at the BIP 47 protocol itself.

And this first one is based on Otto's blog. So Otto wrote a how many years ago was it, Max? Like, two or three years ago? Yeah. That's the thing. Yeah. Yeah. He he wrote that bit forty seven one. He wrote for silent payments.

Yeah. And, actually, that brings me back to you you had mentioned when you're talking about wallets and integrating off 47 and and such, one of the things that I think is great with, like, you know, all this AI powered stuff now, with people coding more and whatnot, it's like, the way I see it,

when you ask somebody to, like, add, like, Bit 47 or pay names into their wallet, it's the same way as, like, I would imagine somebody asking me to put silent payments in my wallet. You know? Like, I love Bit 47. I use Bit 47. And somebody's just like, when are you adding silent payments?

And I'd be like, probably never because I, I'm just focusing my time somewhere else. Right? It's not that, like, I I, you know, I'm I have a hatred for silent payments. It's just like, you know, time is

a limited resource, and and you don't wanna spend your time doing something that you're not even passionate about. Right? So if people want to get involved with, like, wallets and whatnot, you make the code yourself. I can, like, look at it, review it, make sure it doesn't break something,

and maybe it can become a feature that people wanna use. That's a good point. I mean, there is there is a website for silent payments. I'm I'm pretty sure it's on Seth's GitHub, Seth for Privacy. Right? And, like Yeah. He's pretty made it.

He's made it. Like so it's a it's a decent site. And quite honestly, I think, you know, seeing something like that for silent payments, it's a it's a good excuse to kinda say, hang on. Like, you know, bit 47 should have something too where it shows, you know, what you can expect in that ecosystem.

I'm personally happy for, you know, the various wallets I use to pick one or the other.

I suspect our Sparrow will try and integrate too. Good luck to Craig. I'm trying to make a nice UI flow and then I'll probably expect to see in the Telegram channel people getting confused and sending trying to send bit 47 payments to a silent payment address and blah blah blah.

You know, I think I think, to be honest, you're better off picking one or the other. But if anyone can do it, Craig can. But, yeah, like, you know, I I think, you know, just for any of these protocols, you want to see, like, a a site of the documentation. In this case here, I think, you know, you've you've brought a lot of, like, autos

stuff here to, to kinda be a bit more visual and play around with here. Right? Because you can actually see the secrets, and you can actually see what makes up the payment code, and and how they would combine.

Yeah. Exactly. Right? So it goes through the whole process of, like, how this notification transaction works and, using the characters Alice and Bob, you know,

a developer or, you know I remember, like, when I first came across all these things. And you go through that process, like, you wanted to, like, consume everything, whether it's a podcast or, like, technical documentation, and anyone just talking about the topic of, like, let's say, bit 47 or, you know, back day, like, Whirlpool,

Stowaways. Just like, oh, I just wanna, you know, cram it all in my brain. So, you know, that's also, like, yeah, just me fulfilling, like, the same things that I would want as a user. So And also, like, there's actually something else we should probably do a bit of a shout out to because I know Otto did some work on the q and a c tool,

but there's also super fat arrow. Right? And he added something similar to this here where you can kind of put, like, to the exchange codes and you can actually derive bit you know, the addresses between two bit 47 codes. So, like, on the q on the c tool. Right? You can

yeah. You can create your own c phrase. You can see what payment you'd get, see what bit 47. And if you put a counterpart as bit 47 code in, you actually see the send and the receive addresses between the two. So that's, like, really cool to do. Oh, that's sweet.

Yeah. Like, and actually, yeah, like yeah. We should, yeah, we should probably discuss that as

well because that kind of probably fits into the site because, like, I mean, like, I I was speaking now ill of the q and a c tool. It's amazing. But it's also it's also quite intimidating for a newbie to use even though it's, like, you know, very kind of, you know, detailed out. But but, like, yeah.

I mean, like, that's amazing, like, that tool. I know auto updated it to point to the new pane and directory when Samurai's went down. And yeah, like, q and a still kind of maintain that. And, like, that's a really kind of useful thing because, like, some people might get a bit concerned.

Like, you know, I'm using these wallets, but what happens if, the wallet support disappears?

Even though, obviously, these wallets are static software that you can kind of always maintain. But I think it's kind of quite comforting, right, when it's always you know, I'm sure all of us have played around with these kind of c tools here like Ian Coleman was the other one that's like super and user friendly but is actually very,

very popular in the space and gets used. Q and A's tool is, like, way more intuitive and better documented than that. And, it's it's just focused on Bitcoin. It hasn't got all these other shit coins in it. But, yeah, like, the whole kind of finding the payment codes is really cool because you can actually see your bit 47

derived addresses coming from that, and, like, that really helps you visualize.

Yeah. 100%. That's sweet. Yeah. I would like to get, like, some kind of, like, similar thing on on the website here. Yeah. Yeah. Super fat arrow. Hit me up.

Yeah. So, anyways, interactive scenario, Alice pays Bob. You know? Goes through the whole thing here. And then the second tool that I have in in the Bit 47 lab here is the payment code validator and analyzer.

And I to start off, I have a an invalid code. And so when you hit analyze payment code, it kinda tells you why. It's, like it kinda gives you a little bit of a rundown. But when you enter in a valid code, and I'm gonna use mundane punch, the RabbitRel or mundane punch

for the demo here. If we put that in, you get a massive breakdown. It kind of what it does is it takes the payment code, and I think it puts it into base 58, and then starts parsing out at every every byte.

So users can come here and learn which what byte represents what, you know, in the legend down here. And then it also gives you a breakdown through here, you know, whether it's the prefix byte, the version byte, and then even extracting out the public key. So going back to, like, what,

Max Tannehill was saying, you know, like, you can, take these addresses together, seed phrase, and, you know, you can take these two users, parse it apart, and drive addresses, etcetera, etcetera.

And yeah. Yeah. So then there's just some more information here, obviously, like, you know, notification path, address format. Yeah. You know, it's a you know, as deep as you wanna dig here and and as as shallow as you wanna the the information's there.

And then also, you know, if anyone sees, like, something that's missing or something that should be corrected, let me know.

Well done, mate. This is Yeah. Yeah. Don't let them tell you you're a useless cunt. It's not true. There you go.

I get that a lot. So

That's very cool. You you you just surprise people with these sort of things quite often. There's always something that you're cooking, and then you just drop it, and no one knows you're even working on it, and it's done.

Sometimes they burn up in flames. But Yeah.

Thirdly is the is the guest book. Oh, woah. Who's this voiceless individual guy?

Who that's said? Hello, guys. Hello, mate. I feel like I know that one. I'm pretty sure he's on my contact list. Yeah. Mine too. You could tell by the crying Pepe there.

So if you want to write a note in the guest book, it'd be great if everyone can go do it right now, then we can get a pile of messages. But I'll do an authentication here. Once again, we're using the, auth 47, and I'll just type a message here.

Hello, auto.

Doxed.

There we go. It's very straightforward, but it for me, I just wanted to make the a a simple application that people could use just to see, you know, these could be used like, the are great identity layer, but they could also be used, you know, for for social matters as well.

Fantastic. And this is, you know, I kinda stole this idea from, Ashigaru slash Samurai. I wanted to just expand on it a bit,

and give a bit more usability to it. But it's it's the same exact idea as I showed, with the paynim.rs site. Right? You're signing in or, and then you're able to see your followers and who you're following, paynims wise.

But, you know, for exploration purposes, I will take mundane punch again, and we'll kinda show you the extensibility of this, this version of it.

So this is using the, you know, PayNim API and just, you know, querying. You know, in in working with PayNim for for BlueWallet, I became very familiar with the the API, what you're able to create, you know, like, creating, claiming, pay names,

and, you know, figure out, like, what the followers are because, you know, grabbing it for the wallet and whatnot. And one of the things that I discovered, while I was going through it was that in the Samurai ecosystem as well as the Ashigaru one, there's two payment codes.

And so this was figured out through the API. And one is SegWit enabled and one isn't. So, for instance, in BlueWallet, there is no SegWit payment code. And in Ashigaru or Samurai or Sparrow, when you claim your paying them, both, payment codes are there for you.

And so, yeah, I don't know if, Max, is there anything that you could add on that side of it? Yeah. Are you aware of this? See, yeah. Yeah. I am. Because I was because I remember I remember this popping up because I'm pretty sure I hit up Samurai directly many years ago because,

like, I think, to be honest, I probably pissed him off. But because probably what happened is I imported my wallet, right, into I remember what happened now. I imported my Samurai wallet into BlueWallet so I could use it on iOS.

Right? This is this is my thing, right, which always pissed off Keanu. Right? Bless him. And then, I think that I got a pain in code, paid to it, and then it, like, rendered to a legacy address, I think. I got it was a while ago since I did this.

And then I learned about the whole kind of there being, like, a secret flag or something in that. So I think if I recall from the the API, like, when you if you if you do bit 47 and you're interacting with Panium server,

you can base I think, you know, like, I'll be corrected here if I, you know, if I say something wrong, but I think pretty much you can say, hey,

this is my bit 47 code and, like, you know, I'm gonna say a flag, which is I'm I'm happy. I'm gonna happy to do SegWare. And, of course, you gotta think back to, like, when Samurai was first doing this. It was probably around 2017,

right, or around that time. So, you know, where where the people were using SegWare or SegWare compatibility addresses, it was, quite a big big thing. Like, nowadays, pretty much, you know, you're not gonna find a wallet that can't send to a Beck 32 address.

So it's okay. But, like, I think that was from from it. I'm pretty sure, though, I was just, like while I'm, like, just on the on the call here now, I'm pretty sure like, I'm trying to look look through on the on the Ashagarro site.

Let's see if, like, they made any changes here because I'm pretty sure, like, that when you pay, like I've never had it go to, like, a an old address anymore or something. So there might have been a change there. But, yeah, I can't remember off the top of my head.

But, yeah, like, it's kinda it's more like a I I say it's more like just a kind of a detail now, largely speaking. Like, if you're gonna send anything to an address, you just would expect it to go to a a native secret address now.

Nice. Yeah. Like, I'm not too familiar with, you know, that side of the coin there. So thanks for adding some color there, boss.

So yeah. And then while while Max was talking about that, I kinda just went through, you know, clicking around. Right? You can just keep diving into, you know, pay names. Keep going. Check their followers, who they're following. Boom. Their payment codes.

So yeah. Once again, you know, using the power of the API and, you know, maybe people get ideas, like, how to extend the API, you know, make it better. You know, maybe, a pay name doesn't just have to be, like, payment codes. Maybe there could be some other stuff that's hooked onto it such as, like, social media profiles and whatnot.

But, yeah, once again, just trying to get people involved, you know, get them thinking about what what could be possible.

And yeah. So after Paint and Explorer, we have the documentation. So this is more, for, developers. So it kinda just goes you can pick, you know, BIP 47 protocol, auth 47 specification. You know, there's code examples, PaintM API. So, you know, once I got ahold of this,

you know, I really wanted to put this in a nice written form on a website, just so people can see. You know, obviously, if you make the call for NIM, you know, you can see, like, all this different information, which is the stuff that I'm using in the Painium Explorer. Right? So I'm grabbing followers following,

you know, and then you you extend the code to, you know, make it a little bit more lively.

I'll say. But, yeah, all the all the stuff that you'd want out of it, once again, you know, people can, you know, I've added resources here. Right? So walls that support, you know, all the links there, communities.

I listed. You know, obviously, the guys that really pushed the forefront on DIP 47, Bill and Keoni. Go and support them, sign the petition, donate, and get the word out,

and the signal chat, which, you know, you you might get in, you might not. While you're, just talking about that, I just wanted to say, letter two is now live on the feed. So anyone who wants to go and listen to that and, support,

a 100% of the sats will go to the cause. So except for there's, like is it 1% that fountain take if you do it that way? But outside of that, a 100% goes to the cause, and letter one did about half a million sats.

So, yeah, go and have a listen and and go and donate. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So if you're just, like, in the fountain ecosystem, yeah, they'll they'll, take a certain percentage of the top there. But, know, obviously, you can use other apps such as Podcast Guru, Podverse,

and, donate that way. Or you can just donate straight to, the Albie address. So billandchioni@getalbie.com. Yeah. And John did a lovely, reading there. I thought it was good narration. Yeah. No. It it was pretty awesome. It was a good listen.

So, yeah, I also wonder who's gonna boost. And do they wanna hear your shitty voice, or do they wanna hear John's sultry voice? Please please say John. Please say John because honestly, the last time took me, like, I don't know, maybe three hours to read one fucking letter. So please, because I am so specialist.

It it really it really is difficult. Yeah. You definitely didn't go to Cambridge. Fuck. No. I've been there before. I've I've been to the place. The sidewalk, like, outside? Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

Did a few robberies there. It's a nice place.

And lastly, like, just to tie it off here, like, this page is like, I I call this, like, the vibrant slash quartic page, because I didn't really know, like, how to structure it all, and they just kind of wrote me a bunch of texts.

And, you know, and here it is. So thank you guys for your help. And because they really want to push through that, bit 47 isn't just about, like, address reuse. Mhmm. And that, you know, with the extensibility of the pay NIM layer, you know, sometimes people just think that, oh, that's an avatar, and that's cute.

But, you know, like, all these things, kinda come together as you can see in this, like, little privacy stack, like, flowchart. So you have your pit the 47 payment codes, the extensibility layer with PayNIMs integrated with a network communication layer in Sorbonne, and then you start getting, you know, tools that go way well beyond

the initial initial stuff. Right? So your Stowaways, your Stowwell x twos. Yeah. Just collaborative transactions in general. Mhmm.

Yeah. So this, the about page, obviously, it's more targeted towards, you know, just your end user. So whereas the documentation, obviously, more of a developer focus, the about page is just for users to kinda get started with it and, you know, understand, you know, why this stuff even matters, etcetera.

And, yeah, at the bottom, once again, compatible wallets. I just listed the three. Obviously, Max might have some input here, But because of the mention of Kahoots and stowaways and whatnot, I didn't want to, mislead anyone in thinking that the other wallets had had that functionality as well. Yeah.

It's tough. Right? Like, everyone's kinda got like, they either go a little bit or they're kinda, like, in the middle or they've got, like, full full operation. Yeah. And you've also got these these brand names and lots of kinda confusing terms for this, which was kind of,

you know, all fun and good while Bill was around and tweeting. But, you know,

now it's a bit you know, we kinda got this problem that all this stuff fills that that extra level of distance when you haven't got kind of a a necessary as kind of an approachable community as there was before to explain some of this. And I like fantastic work, mate. Really worth it.

Yeah. No. That's actually a really good point. Right? Because, like, some of the terms, like, even, like, yeah, cahoots, they can get lost on people. You know, like, what does that even mean? So, yeah, that might have to be flushed out a little bit more because I wouldn't mind, like, keeping it as a term that continues on.

But, yeah, there has to be some,

what is it? Explanation. Yeah. It's it's an exposition in films and things like that. Yeah. Like, do you need a bit more context, I think, some of this? But look, I mean, like, overall, I mean, like, you know, I I think it's, great here. Like, I mean, you you get an idea of what this is all about. You got documentation.

Yes. You can kind of see see an already existing ecosystem of people there. And, you know, you've you've actually kind of got tools here that demonstrate how to actually deploy it. So, like, yeah, it's fantastic.

Like, it really is a it's kinda got, like, a lot of the makings of as you can see here for, like, an identity layer.

You know, like, there's there's no reason why you couldn't, like, I what did let's not say that you you definitely do this, but, I mean, like, you could, you know, you could have, you know, message boards. You could have chat service.

I remember, like, an early kind of concept shown to me by one the samurai team was, you know, like a kind of a tour only, like, message board, for example, for for doing

Kahoot style transactions. You know, you kinda hit people up, and it was designed yeah. Because, obviously, we kind of you know, the original Kahoot stuff was designed as very much an in person thing, and then people like me and BTC Backcap wanted to kind of do Kahoots to each other, but we're not in the same country.

And then start sharing payloads over Telegram and all that, and then that's kind of, you know but I think it was only then that's, you know, after those kind of online sharing through messengers that the team then thought actually shit rather than just making this a kind of physical man to man thing.

Let's actually have something like, you know, online. But, know, there's there's no reason why you can, you know, build certain kind of social tools and things like that. And, like, you know, I'll say a positive thing, right, about stuff like Lightning.

But, you know, Lightning have kinda got like a good l n is it l n URL or I I forget the the kind of the here, but we've got, like, a bit of an identity layer there, and people use that to sign into, you know, to, like like, micro blogging sites and things like that. So, yeah, there's a yeah.

There really is a whole ecosystem here that we built.

Yeah. No. Exactly. Right? I totally agree. And so it'd be sweet to, like, you know, anyone that has a good idea just there's never been a better time to, like, you know, just throw it in clot or something like that. It can be, like, spit spit back something at you, and then just get your brain going.

Yeah. Actually, you know what? I've just suddenly just randomly thought about something else here, but it just occurred to me is that Pavel, right, released that web tool for for doing better verification of signed bit 47 messages.

So and then, you know, like, if you now look at, like, the Dojo Bay website, pretty much everyone there is signing their Dojo credentials now, which is incredible. Like, that's kind of very much like a kind of just a kind of community effort. Right? And so it's happened. But now, like,

XTX, you run that site there. You don't even have to trust him to to be hosting those payloads correctly. Like, you can you know, if if his server is kinda compromised, you can actually authenticate those messages and go, does that message belong to that individual that I know that's got that bit 47 code?

And so, you know, that's a kind of, you know, very kind of powerful tool here. You know? This isn't just about, like, you know, doing a login. You know? It's kinda got a whole PGP aspect to it, bit 47, where you've you know, not only do you have an identity

and you got, like, a a nice friendly Pepe hash and all that to it, but you you can really basically say, like, PGP, I can start cryptographically signing a message and say this comes from me, and you know it hasn't been tampered with if you can validate it.

Yeah. Exactly. No. Like and everyone kinda filed in really fast on that too with the verification. They didn't wanna be left out. So it was it was really cool. I know you were probably the first one to do it. So Yeah. The me and XTX, I think

because XTX is kind of I think someone suggested it. I can't remember. Like, I remember it happened in the Telegram chat. I remember Pavel turning around like that that web talk. Because I remembered in the old I hadn't even seen it in his GitHub repo, but I remember in the Samurai repo, there was there was some kind of libraries around

bit 47 and all 47 stuff there. And, of course, that was also the stuff that super fat arrow had kinda utilized on the on the seed tool as well, you know, separately. But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of information there. But, of course, like, you know,

I you know, it's fine if you know where to look, but when you first come into this ecosystem, it's not always, like, really obvious where, you know, you know, how where these libraries are or or where to get this information.

Yeah. Exactly. So, like, one step at a time. Right? We got the Dojo Dojo website now that Pavel, like, did did the job on. We got this one.

You know, like, what's next? Adam to yeah. Yeah. Very cool.

Alright. Bit by bit.

Over to me, is it? Am I, closing this one out, or have we got any questions and audience participation here? I don't see anything coming through, like, on the, social media chats beside like, I haven't checked Nostril or anything. But Should should I quickly check the nostril? I doubt there's gonna be anyone.

Yeah. They only come out for, like, q, like, because he gives them so much love. Right? So Mhmm. He absolutely loves Noster. Let me just have a quick look. Have we got anything? Hold on. Hold on. We do. We do.

Is it Russell? Watch the South yeah. So watch the South Park episode about human centipede. Centipede. No. Thank you, mate. Observer. I'm waiting for the wallets PDF guide with some pictures from the movie for better understanding of how it works. Again, gross.

BTC Wrestle, What is the difference of Bit 47 versus silent payments? Seems a handful of wallets going towards silent payments instead of pay names and feels like we're trying to reinvent the wheel. Obviously, Bit 47 requires an additional on chain transaction to connect.

I think we didn't we do a full episode on this? But maybe you guys can break it down as well. Yeah. I can here, I'll I'll say just a couple quick things Yeah. Yeah. First, and then and then Max can rip it up.

K. So as you can see from the website, there's a lot of walls that have BIP 47 in different implementations. Whether or not they're fully fleshed out or not, that's another question. But, once again, going back to the AI coding and and, being able to contribute easily or, as just a user,

I don't see any reason why those can't become more fully fleshed out. And, you know, from my opinion, the what we have right now from BIP 47 perspective, is still greater than silent payments.

So there was some first mover advantage there, and now it's just about, you know, showing people why it's better, you know, because I personally believe that. And, and then going from there, you know, especially with the social layer and all that.

Well, not social layer, but, you know, the Paymium layer, the identity layer. You know, there there's a lot of advantages. And I haven't set what I think too, especially, like, you know, when you're dealing with a sub, sub one SAT, mempool and to get into a blog,

Like, it's there's never been a better time to, like, transact on chain. And in my opinion, like, the best payment channels are, you know, the ones that you make with BIP 47, and and not Lightning channels.

So that's all I really have to say there.

Yeah. It's I think, like, one is highly interesting. This is BTC Wrestle. Right? He says something like it's reinventing the wheel.

So, like, in fairness to silent payments, there are some, like, you know, you you know, different trade offs which make them a bit more improved to use over a bit 47 in terms of, like, some of the things you can get out of it. But at the same time, my slight irritation when it first came out was that it's a reinvention

because if you actually go back to like bit 47 and look at the, like, the original stack and it started off in like, I think there's a bit process in GitHub and all that. And then again, like, I'm a bit hazy in this. Obviously, I never worked on it, but I remember hearing some of this from from the guys.

But there was like there's there's different versions of bit 47. There's like v one, v two, v three, and v four, think it was. And I can't remember which version it is, but, like, something like maybe it was, like, version three or something like that. So I think version one might have been,

you know, the ordinary legacy payments, and it was obviously designed to be multi chain as well as it could work with, like, Bitcoin cash. But, like, I think

there might be an version, I think, again, a super kind of, you know, don't quote me on this, but I think there was a version that kind of gave a flag so you could say kind of this is SegWit. Then there was another version that was gonna basically be similar to silent payments where you wouldn't like,

you know, there'd be a heavier server side scanning. Now I don't know all the details, but I do know that, like, basically, the samurai guys were like, yeah, we're not really got an awful lot of interest in implementing that.

And then, like, silent payments came out and they're like, oh, yeah. It's this huge improvement. And there was like a lot of marketing around at the time, which annoyed me because they were like, hey. It's a big improvement. And I'm kinda like but there could have been like kind of common payment codes to like a different version.

They could have built on bit 47 or made another version of that. And instead they've kind of gone straight to, oh, yeah. We wanna make use of Taproot.

It was almost like that. I think that's kind of where, like, if if anyone thinks that I've been a bit harsh with silent payments and, like, they don't really see the reason or some people I think suspect, like, I'm I'm the tribal samurai and, like, I only support that.

But my kind of issue with signed payments is kinda like, well, you know, I don't really wanna fucking use Taproot. Like and, you know, I've already kind of seen, know, this wasn't like this, you know, incredibly

innovative payment thing. And then I think, you know, as Jordan was saying earlier, when you actually look at, like, what what wallets out there support this, like, you actually find, like, the ecosystem is a lot smaller. Now, obviously, you've got kind of what it's like Sparrow now that support sending to a sign of payments address.

I think cake has a receive. I think now it does actually have receive and send. But certainly in kind of the earlier days, I think, you know, there was they had to make quite a lot of improvements in the Electrum server protocol

stuff to be able to actually kinda handle that. And, obviously, you know, if you wanna run this yourself and have your own server, I, you know, I don't know kind of how how good it is to use, but I don't I don't hear much of people using that in in a kind of day to day aspect.

And I think a lot of that is still the limitations server side. And when you look at, like, the silent payments documentation, like, quite a few wallets out there that have moved towards it. And,

you know, it doesn't really matter for me, like, if even if you have a protocol that on its own seems really good to you. If, for example, the wallet that you use it with or that you can only use it with and the other ones you can send to limit the way that you're you're gonna use it,

then you're kind of up against that network problem and and the problem of just the fact that it's not just about, like, in the payment. You know, these other wallets support different things. So,

you know, if you are kind of very much like a user or an Ashigari user or a Samurai user, then, like, it's unlikely that sign up and says, oh, it's gonna be, you know, give you enough of a reason to move over.

I'm really interested as well, like, with this whole kind of quantum stuff happening on Bitcoin, probably shouldn't say FUD, but I kind of suspect a little bit it is. And not that I certainly wanna talk about quantum. The fact that there's actually now a proposal for, like, another Taproot script, like, output type plug in script

Makes me wonder kind of, you know, if there's gonna be another version of that on silent payments and how that's gonna do and, you know, whether this will affect the popularity

of people, you know, moving to certain Taproot wallets. But certainly from my perspective, this is that, you know, whilst the Taproot whilst Taproot gives silent payments the functionality with the, you know, with that type of address being able to use there, I still don't see an awful lot of enthusiasm for using Taproot wallets.

And and whenever people do use them, it's almost always because they've been sold, hey, you know, use Taproot. It's more private and it's cheaper.

And, you know, we won't obviously spend time now going through that, but, like, it really isn't as straightforward as, yeah, Taproot being cheaper. In some cases, it can actually be more expensive than Secwit. And certainly on a privacy aspect, there are huge privacy advantages of Taproot in terms of what the script reveals.

But in terms of your general transactional privacy and, like, you know, exposing transactions in the transaction graph and hiding in the crowd, like, yeah, Taproot is not doing anything for you there. So, yeah, it's a it's it's an interesting one really. And, you know, I'm kind of I'm kind of,

you know, keen to see how this is gonna turn out. I think a lot of what's gonna drive the popularity though, these respective implementations isn't just the trade offs of them and and how important you see them. It's really like what wallets they can use it with and what's and what services people find it's it's useful.

Assignments is, for example, to have a bit of an identity solution with it, then may

Did we lose you? Cut out.

You both gone. Jordan, are you there? Yeah. I'm here. Yeah. I'm here. Go ahead. Max is Is there Max, just texted me, though. Okay. His, his phone shut down. Oh, okay. He's probably using one of those shitty Mamushi ones or something.

Okay. Well, I mean, that's probably a good good place to leave it to. I didn't hear what you said, just before. But

Me? I didn't say anything. Yeah. Okay. Oh, I was I was I was only gonna say I was only gonna say is do you think that it's too confusing having both in one wallet? I think one of you touched on it earlier. Like, maybe I'm naive looking at things this way, but I always tend to look at it like, okay. There's two options.

We might prefer a certain one personally or more used to one personally. They'll everything has trade offs, but do not see it as a win that you have multiple options? Like, even if it's in something like Sparrow and you might use pay names over silent payments. Like, the fact that there's

both options available, does that not mean that there's more chance that more people use privacy tools, or do you think that that, like, that having too many options puts people off and then, it doesn't help expand the ecosystem because it's more, like, bifurcated?

It's like, to me, like, there's a there's a fragmentation aspect there. Right? Like, I don't wanna be, what is it? Because, you know, you're right, about that. You know? Obviously, there's what is it? Solo payments gives, like, certain guarantees,

and, you know, from that perspective, it's not bad or anything. It's just, you know, my my personal preference is everyone using BIP 47 and and, you know, having their Pepe hash avatars and just because I think it's awesome. So there's my bias.

Mhmm.

And then with your wallet, I I I agree with Tannehill as well. Like, if you're a wallet developer, you're kinda choosing which way you wanna go to. And, like, that's kinda what Cake's done. Right? Like, they they chose, like, what road like, Seth's not gonna take the dev time out to do

two different things that accomplish, you know, what I think a lot of people deem to be the same goal. I I obviously think that bit 47, etcetera, is is a little bit more sophisticated. So, but, yeah, clear vision for wallets is probably better.

Anything else to, add there, Max? Are you back with us? Can you hear me okay? Oh, that's even better. That's crisp. Yeah. Oh, sorry about that. Yeah. It it was the graphene phone, not the iPhone, Bitcoin Derby, so then you give me that shit. That was the one that I've actually just sent photographic evidence of it to to Jordan.

Yeah.

Yeah. No. Agreed on all that. I also saw Cortic. It's something I've made the point before is silent payments. Yeah. But the the the notification transaction gets a rough treatment, I think, for a bit 47,

but it does also mean that you know exactly who is messaging you. Sorry. Not messaging. You can do a message like it, but who is paying you. Whereas with silent payments,

you know, every payment can kind of you know, isn't on, that kind of channel. So they're actually kinda quite different tools as well. You know? And, like, although that's kinda cool as well if you wanna do, like, say, an anonymous donation on through silent payments, it's it's actually it's got an anonymity aspect

because you you know, no one could actually see who it's come from. But, actually, you know, like, you can also get dusted pretty easily because someone can just keep on just sending you kinda, like, transactions

in the hope that they just hit your wallet and you don't really notice them. Whereas, like, you know, look. It's not actually implemented in anything like Sparrow or Samurai at the moment. But let's say you have, like, a particularly troublesome, you know, user that's spamming you over bit 47.

Like, it's not really out of the realms of possibility to think, oh, you know what? I'm just gonna, like, hide all transactions from this channel. And then that guy's actually gotta, like, open up a different channel each time with you if they're gonna try and, like, dust you.

You know, I don't think dust transactions are too much of a problem nowadays in the same way, but, you know, it it it definitely is worth

kind of approaching this, I think, in, you know, really, like, honestly, in a in a nontriable way and looking at these protocols and just really appreciating that they they've got pretty different trade offs.

And they and when you actually look at them, like, you may find that you may prefer one versus the other for just certain scenarios. Like, maybe one's better for payroll, one's better for donations, you know, that kind of thing. And, yeah, which whichever wallet works for you best and which services you use.

Yeah. Very good. Alright, guys. Well, I think we should wrap it up there, but well done, Jordan. Love the website. Thanks for doing that. Thanks for joining us, Max, and, yeah, go deeper into these sort of things.

Yep. No. Really well done, Jordan. I'm looking looking forward to seeing this and put put painting up there on the site so you can get some donations.

Yeah. I'm gonna do that for sure. Well done, mate, and a pleasure being with you. And thanks also, everyone, for putting the questions in the chat. Feel free to hit me up. I prefer signal these days if you got my signal. If not, hit me up on Twitter and Telegram and ask for my signal or something like that.

But, yeah, you know, it's it's nice to see this all still going on whilst half of the fucking Internet is getting obsessed with shitty AI and all that.

One other thing I want to mention is that I just got a bunch of the code review back for, the BlueWalt stuff from, a couple of friends. And, yeah. So I'll be digging now that this project's, kind of done for now, I'll be jumping back into that. So, hopefully, you guys will be seeing some updates there.

I've personally been using it, as test wallet. So, like, actually spending real Bitcoin. You know? I'm sending the BTC wrestle from BlueWallet via PayNim, Bit 47. So

Stay tuned. Alright, mate. Alright, boss. Cheers. Ciao, guys. Bye.

You for listening to Freedom Tech Friday. To everyone who boosted, asked questions, and participated in the show, we appreciate you all. Make sure to join us next week on Friday at 9AM EST and 2PM London.

Thanks to Seth, Max, and q for keeping it ungovernable. And thank you to Cake Wallet, Foundation, and my Nim Box for keeping the Ungovernable Misfits going. Make sure to check out ungovernablemisfits.com to see mister Crown's incredible skills and artwork.

Listen to the other shows in the feed to hear Kareem's world class editing skills. Thanks to expatriotic for keeping us up to date with Boost's XMR chats and sending in topics. John, great name and great guy, never change and never stop keeping us up to date with mining news or

continuing to grow the Meshtadel. Finally, a big thanks to the unsung hero, our Canadian overlord Jordan, for trying to keep the ungovernable in check and for the endless work he puts in behind the scenes.

We love you all. Stay ungovernable.