Surveil Yourself with Stealth

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Freedom Tech Friday, a weekly live and interactive show hosted on the Ungovernable Misfits, X, Nosta, YouTube, Rumble, and Twitch feeds. We go live for one hour every Friday at nine usually at 9AM eastern, although I am well aware it is now 10AM eastern, thanks daylight savings,

or 2PM UK time. But you can also catch up later on the Ungovernable Misfits podcast feed. On Freedom Tech Friday, we like to cover the latest news and trends for anything relating to freedom technologies.

That could be anything from Bitcoin, Monero, encrypted messengers, privacy tools, and everything in between. Essentially, there's a news item tool or topic that can help you take back some control in today's digital Panopticon,

then we wanna talk about it. My name is Q and A, and I'm head of customer experience at Foundation, where we build Bitcoin focused sovereignty tools. As always, I'm joined by my good friends Max, the head honcho of the Ungovernable Empire, and Seth who is COO over at Cake Wallet.

Free and Tech Friday is a live and interactive show and you can help steer the conversation by commenting live, pre submitting your questions, boosting the show via podcasting two point o apps, sending tips or just sharing the show with your friends.

Top support from the last show comes from Hablamos

to Bitcoin, who sent 500 stats and said, the better improvements in UX we have, the more adoption will come. I think Hake have done a great job there. I think we'll all agree. Also a quick special mention to Cas Peland, Loofa Lou, and Nathan Day for their such streaming contributions last week. Thank you all for your support.

We do have some guests I'm gonna introduce very shortly, but without further ado, let's dive into the show and say hello to my cohost, Max and Seth. How are you doing, gentlemen? I'm doing.

I've waded back into the the the great Twitter wars of twenty twenty six, So I'm, I'm thriving. I'm thriving. I started a new war, but it's better than the BIP one ten idiocy. So I I'm you know, better discourse. I'm doing my part.

And I'm very sick again. The room is spinning. I'm snuffling away, but I couldn't miss this. And, the only thing getting me through the last twenty four hours has just been watching Seth going to battle, going to war, and thinking it could be worse.

You have a good case study of what not to do if you want a quiet life. Okay? It's not safe for the wrong thing, but if you want a quiet life, yeah, don't listen to me. Yeah. Don't listen to Seth. But, yeah, seriously, today, very excited about, what we're gonna be talking about. This is something that

me and Kew have been discussing on, I think, almost every Bitcoin brief for the last year or so that this kind of tooling would be incredible. So, yeah, very excited. Yeah. Absolutely. It we were talking about this on the Bitcoin brief, and we were recapping a little bit. And I actually made a a little wish list

where I was hoping that somebody was actually gonna vibe code something just like what we're about to talk about today. So where it pop over on my Twitter feed, I was very excited and literally jumped straight into into Bruno's comments to be asking him if he wanted to come on.

So yeah. As I mentioned today, we've got a couple of guests joining us. We've got Bruno and Josh, the builders behind a new open source tool called Stealth. Stealth is a Bitcoin wallet privacy audit tool for one of a better lack of a better term, that essentially runs the same characteristics that chain analysis like Chainalysis

like to use on all of us and into this. But the difference is Stealth puts those tools in your hands. You paste your wallet descriptor, it scans your on chain history, and it tells you exactly where your privacy may or may not be leaking.

Today, we're gonna hear about why they built it, how it works, and that hopefully, they're gonna give us a live demo so that you can see in it in it in action. Excuse me. But first off, Bruno, George, welcome to Freedom Tech Friday.

Before we get into Stealth, we'd all love to hear a bit about you both, where you're based, what your background is, and how you ended up getting into, you know, doing what you're doing today.

Thank you so much. I'm proud to be to be here. I'm very, very thankful for this invitation. I I see you a lot on Twitter and awesome work that you do. Well, I me and George, George can talk about himself a bit more later, but we are both in Brazil.

I'm the host of in Brasilia, Brazil. And I I work in in Bitcoin surroundings since 2017. I started in Bitcoin doing some kind of a I I started a a crypto investing company, and then but it was 2017,

Block Wars. And I was if I was trying to invest, I need to understand it better. So I dive deep inside that all those conversations of what actually is Bitcoin and what is not Bitcoin, why Bitcoin cash is not Bitcoin, big blocks are better or worse. And and I became a maximalist very quickly

because of that. And I've been and and since then, I've been in in this space. I I wrote a book, which is a 101 questions about Bitcoin. I'm think I'm translating it to English. I'm in the process to translate it into English.

I've sell sold, like, half a thousand copies in Portuguese, and I lots of people really enjoy the book, and I'm I'm translate I'm translating into to releasing to launching in English as well in maybe other languages.

And so so I we started the devs. We we just completed two two years of BTEVS. And Brasilia quickly after BTEVS, Brasilia quickly became a very big center of Bitcoin development here in Brazil. Like, Brazil is is already

getting really big because of Intune, of work Luca's work. And Brasilia is getting very, very good traction also. Like, there's there's people working with Arc, with Floresta, with lots of really cool relevant Bitcoin projects.

And and yeah. But I I am actually not a I I didn't came from computer science. I'm actually came from electrical engineering, and I went I I was initially a data scientist. And now I'm working with as machine learning engineer, AI engineer, depending on how you define it.

And and I worked in Spirit of Satoshi. Some some of you might remember with some some AI for Bitcoin not long ago. And I've I've been improving on my agentic engineering, and I have lots and lots of ideas. And this this was actually not my idea, Georgie. It was Georgie's and and and Herb Herb's idea.

And he could talk he can talk more about this. He we we did a hackathon before, and then he they had this idea and said, Dreno, can you you want me to to join? And I said, like, of course, this this idea is amazing. Let's let's do it. And, George, you can tell you about about yourself.

Hi, guys.

Thank you for having me here. I'm I'm very glad for being here.

So my my background is is Hagware web developer, and I started to to get things in Bitcoin since when I started to go into the devs, which brand hosts.

So this idea games,

especially for this event here in Brazil called the Bitcoin plus plus. This it's at worldwide. It has in a lot of cities.

So here, this this edition was edition talking about Bitcoin exploits. So

the idea was to track vulnerabilities in the user's wallet.

So

We thought it was a good idea to to present it in exploit edition.

Yeah. You you mentioned that you did this at the at the hackathon.

Could you talk us through what that experience was like? Like, do you just kind of lock yourselves in a room for twenty four hours and hash out some ideas and then build out an MVP? Like, walk us I've never been been involved in a hackathon like that. So walk us through what that experience is like.

Yeah. It was actually less than twenty four hours. I I believe it was twenty two, maybe. It was it was very quick. It's getting it's getting faster. We're we're getting less time, I believe, probably because of AI.

But, yeah, it's basically, what is a hackathon? It's a it's a it's kind of a competition where most of the hackathons you you build prod And, in Bitcoin hackathons, you're incentivizing building something some freedom tech, Bitcoin or Bitcoin adjacent.

And there sometimes there there are some tracks where, for example, this Bitcoin plus plus hackathon, there was two tracks. One, to find exploits. So you could, like, look for open source tech and find any vulnerability, and and and you get the best ones, the best findings are we're going to get some prizes.

And the other track was to build, like, basically anything. But, of course, if you are related to the team of the of the of the event, which was exploits, would be better. So in this so they they and there is there's some some side quests as well sometimes. Like,

there's sometimes the best for the price for the best design or price. In this edition was there was a price for someone that used the best use of Shakespeare, which is a vibe coding tool.

And so so, basically, that that's it, and you have to have an idea and implement this idea. Luckily, it works in kind of 20 less than twenty four hours and and then present them to some judges that will judge in based on some criteria in these events.

And usually, the PTC plus plus event, they they have they judge by how difficult it is, how how much work you put in, how well it performs, if it's if it's working or if it's just like an idea and you you couldn't make it work.

And so so how how complete and work working is the project? And the third thing is they call the swag, like, how they impact, how how they make the judge's eye shine, something like this. So and then we we just, like, work as our as of as much as we we can. We

I went to sleep at three 03:30AM, but Georgie Georgie Georgie, I think you went to sleep at 9AM. Right? Yeah. Around it. Yeah. He he went to sleep at 9AM, and then, like, at 10:30, he was already there at the event again.

Crazy. Impressive stuff. Well, it is was this hackathon the the first time you two guys have worked together to produce, like, a a Bitcoin related product? No. No. Actually, we we did one last year in November for SatsConf in for for SatsConf, is in Sao Paulo.

But the this is the second one that we work together, but I I know Jorge. We although we it's like we almost never worked together before, like, we we know he he went to the first bid devs, and he always goes to the two bit devs. Like so so we know him about two years now.

We've seen, like, every month. Awesome stuff. Well, it seems like you're you're quite a powerful combination, so long may it continue. Okay. Let's let's get into the tool itself.

I'm sure most of the Freedom Tech Friday audience are will have at least some level of understanding of kind of that chain analysis exists, but I don't think most people appreciate the the power that they they leverage and how much these types of companies with all of their different sources of data can infer about a specific wallet.

So I guess let's walk us in gently. Like, what what problem are you trying to solve here by building this tool, like, to to put it into the the the hands of the people? Like, what are you trying to enable?

Yeah. Bitcoin, as most of us know, is not anonymous. It's so anonymous. So everything is transparent in the blockchain and but they are not easily linked to the person. But we can eventually and with or without our consent link some

leak some information about ourselves. Like, for example, when, let's say, we go to an ice cream stand and buy an ice cream with Bitcoin, and then we use the the change to buy something else in, let's say, I don't know, a pair of shoes in a nearby store.

So the ice cream stand, if he if if they look at the blockchain, they would see that you use the change from that transaction to buy something else or to exchange the send send some other payment to another store. So so he can

he can start to have another he can start to to have some idea of what's going on. Like, you're you're already buying something else. He can infer that. He he maybe is not sure, but he can infer that. And other other something more common, for example, let's say you you buy lots of stuff and now you have lots of small small UTXOs.

The and and the fee the mining fee is very low, so you want to consolidate everything. Once you consolidate everything, it's very clear from someone looking at the blockchain that they are probably consolidating and they are probably from a one person because there's lots of small UTXOs going

and joining into one big u u UTXO. So so this this is a very strong signal for someone consolidating their coins. And if they're consolidating their coins, it means that all those addresses that were once separated, now we can, with a high confidence, infer that they are actually

the same from the same person. So we can go back on those transactions and try to okay. I if I know this address and I know that other ad that other address, I know that he bought something here and he bought something there. So I can we can infer the transactions that someone is making. And and when we are doing our day to day stuff,

we not always can see that this is going on. And this is what chain analysis do. They they have some some they get some information. They record, okay. This is the address for that exchange. This is the address for that company.

And when when someone uses an exchange or buy something in a company that they know the address and they somehow identifies you. For example, most exchanges have KYC. So they they identify you and they have some kind of agreement with chain analysis to provide that identification so they can track you from that single interaction.

And then even your other addresses that didn't touch that exchange in particular, they can start to infer from from other from not from address reuse, from behavior behavior experience, and and other things like this.

Yeah. It seems, especially now, like, this kind of tooling to for people to see what fingerprint they're leaving and who can trace them is particularly important, especially with all the attacks that have been going on, real world wrench attacks and

kidnappings and everything else. Like, it's stuff that forever we've talked about being a reality and that people should watch out for.

And people have sort of rolled their eyes and not really bothered or thought that they can have a boating accident and people will believe them or governments will believe them, but things have got very real recently.

So how do you think about that when you're building this tooling? Do you think stakes will continue just to go up and that this is something that anyone who actually wants to use Bitcoin going forward needs to be using, like, now?

Yeah. There I I say that there are no silver bullets. There are only trade offs. So sometimes you need to consolidate your quest, and and and people will know what you did in the last summer and maybe if they are looking for. But the thing is that there we are inventing

better ways to deal with this all the time. We are building there there's lightning already. It's very difficult to trace. There are swaps that you can do, like submarine swaps, for example.

There there are some some there are there are coin joins, pay joins. So there are there are several different tooling and some some of them more easier to to use, some more some harder to use. But the thing is even though you use them, it's still there was no thing there there there was no tool to see

your coins in the blockchain at the moment. So so even though you used a little bit of them, it's I I believe that it's very important to understand the leaks that you already gave, the the what what already leaked from your information so you can you can know what to do or or you can you you are prepared once

somebody uses this against you, for example. So if in in chain the difference between ChainAnalysis and Stealth is that ChainAnalysis is the is a company that is providing governments and big corporations to to spy on people, And stealth gives you the same leverage, the same opportunity for you to do the same.

So you learn from your mistakes and and you you have you decide the best track, the best path for for improving on on from now on.

Yeah. That makes sense. I think one of the main hurdles that most people have well, it is twofold is, number one, an understanding of the UTXO model and the the kind of trade offs of that in terms of change and rush for use that you just talked about, Bruno.

And also just having visibility on it, like, coins itself. Like, coin control is a common place as a feature within most wallets, but I I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that most people most average Bitcoin is just simply just not using it. They're they're not labeling their coins, so they they simply have no insight as to

where the changes come from, how how, quote, unquote, tainted any of their addresses are, what the links are. So having a visualization tool like Stealth and similar to, you know, similar legacy tools that we used to have like OXT and Boltzmann and KYCP,

which I'm sure you guys have have used in the past if you've come up with something like this, is imperative and can be a very powerful tool in the Bitcoin as tool box, especially when it comes to privacy. So I wanna leave more than enough time to

go through the demo, which is typical just as George drops off the cut the stream again. It looks like he might be having some connection issues. Bruno, just do you wanna just quickly walk us through, like, the current state of stealth in terms of where it's available, what networks it's available on,

you know, the current state of the development? Yeah. Sure. We did this for for the hackathon, like, two weeks ago. So we we didn't have time to improve much since then. We are discussing, like, now the hackathon's passed, and we we have we have actually time to think things through.

We we did, like, a very complicated mess on mix mixturing Python with Java, JavaScript, and lots of stuff because, like, different different languages that everyone was more familiar with. But now that we are planning to do this for real, we're we're thinking about

we've we're thinking harder about the the architecture, the the language, the tooling. We're for example, we are thinking about using Floresta. So you have the full node inside the the the tool itself.

And so you don't need don't even need to to connect. If I don't know. If you don't use a full node, you would have a full node already with with the tool and with Stealth, and you could

have the same privacy without needing, I don't know, to okay. I want to understand my privacy also. I need to, but I don't have a full node, I need to buy a a new computer. I would need to buy some some hard drives to store the blockchain. And so so we want

to embed Floresa inside it. So so we are thinking a lot of this. The current state right now is it is a proof of concept. It it works, and it's in it's in a repo from Georgia. He can we can share the link with you guys. I I believe that there was a link in the in in the in the hackathon project that I shared on Twitter before.

And right now, it it only works in Ragtest. Why Ragtest? Because we needed to construct some wallets that we would know for sure that they had privacy issues so we can demo to the judges in less than twenty four hours later. And so, for example, we we wouldn't be able to if we are going to look for random things, we we are we weren't

using our own public descriptors. Right? So we we created some wallet and imported their public descriptors inside the wallet inside the inside Stealth and

created the analysis according to the wallets that we construct so we know that it's catching the right errors that because we embedded the errors in this rack test wallets. So we it's not for for main net yet, but we want we are talking we are discussing architecture and and development future development. Then

soon, it will be releasing for for Testnet and then for Mainnet. Awesome. Jorge, you're back? Yeah. Hopefully, he's he's back and stable. Jorge, are you able to Yeah. Yeah. Take over with with the screen share and give us a demo?

Okay. Let's go. If you could take us through right from the very beginning so that, you know, what a new onboard user would see right through the whole flow. And just while you're bringing up your your screen share,

Coco Dude on YouTube is is asking a question. What is to stop the, quote, bad gas from using Stealth example to use it as a tool to dock and address? Well, they already already do that. They've got their own far more complex software to do exactly that, but it's all proprietary.

The the the plus point here is that Stealth is completely open source built by Bitcoiners for Bitcoiners. So this is more of a tool to level a playing field rather than, you know, worrying about it being able to be used by the the, quote, unquote, bad guys.

I I would something more that to use Stealth, you need to put there your public descriptor, and only your wallet has the public descriptor. So unless you, I don't know, leak your public descriptor somewhere, say you send to someone on the Internet and some some bad guy gets gets it.

No one has this this public description. So so Stealth is only looking at your own wallet. And so so Stealth has more information about you than, for example, some guy with a chain analysis tool because chain analysis is trying to infer the same things that Stealth is trying to infer, but but they don't have

all the information that you have from from Stealth. So so you can find your vulnerabilities first before, then then you can find your vulnerabilities before someone tries to find it on on a on a chain analysis tool, for example, and try to fix and correct them.

Great call out and great addition. Yeah. Very valid points. Alright, George Shay. Over to you if you could walk us through each step and just talk us through what you're doing. Okay. Can you see my screen?

We certainly can. Okay. So here's the start page from stuff and Yeah. Paste. Sorry. As you can see, it's very simple. It's just a a screen with a text box. You paste your public descriptor that you export

from your from your wallet, And, there's just one button. You paste there. You click the button, and we I lost your screen. Yeah. I think that might have been me. My apologies, Georgie. If you wanna just bring it back up again. Was trying to hide the chat to make to maximize the screen. And

by the way, this is all private. This is local. This this doesn't this is not running on a on a server, any one server. This is running on your own computer. So you just open the software. It's on your computer. It is not using the Internet besides your your node, your Bitcoin node.

So you paste the wallet descriptor, the public wallet descriptor. You it doesn't even have to make any contact with private private keys, of course. And you paste it there and click analyze wallet, and it does everything for you.

So it makes some analysis, and there is several, flags. So from from 36 analyzed, there are 33 findings. For example, address reuse, and there is the CIOH is a is a label that, that means that it's some some sharing,

of UTXO. And it gives you this we we of course, we need to improve a little bit better to make it less technical, to to make it easier for anyone to use it and not only Bitcoin experts. But the the idea is that you have this list of everything that we found

and we classify as it, like, critical problem or maybe some smaller some smaller issue. And what is the exact transaction? What is the exact UTXO? And we also give a suggestion of what can we do to improve it.

So there is this how to fix. And in right now, there is just

a a sentence there, like, explaining a little bit, but we can we we need to think a little bit more. Maybe we suggest already tools to use it. Like, for example, okay. We can we can make it better if we use a coin swap tool that there there are already these options here, for example, that you can you can use it

in with a link. So so you make it the idea is to be is is that it we want it to be, like, very simple and not not only that not not a very technical tool that you can, like, analyze and geek about it and and nerd about it. But but we want something that is very simple. You paste it there.

You read what's going on, what are the issues, and we you decide if you need to take action about this or not. Yeah. George, could you just zoom in a little bit just so the the the viewers can see some of the the comments that are when it says, like, how to fix and stuff. That'd be

useful to to show that on the on the screen. There we go. Right. Bruno,

what type of things are you looking for? Obviously, we can see some things on screen here. We've got a dust label. We've got a common input ownership heuristic, which I'm sure is is commonplace for for the privacy crowd. Like, what other things could this tool detect based on on the wallet findings?

Yeah. There's basically 12 different 12 different heuristics. There there are some very common one that long timer Bitcoiners and even people that use good wallets don't don't commit these errors.

Like, for example, reusing addresses. But still, there there are some people that, to this day, 2,026, are still reusing addresses. So so we look for, reusing addresses, behavior, behavioral problems.

Like, for example, let's say that you let's say that you you earn your salary in Bitcoin. Let's say your employ employer, they pay you the first day of the month, 02:00, I don't know, $5,000 every month.

So even though they are very they they are all different

they are all different,

addresses, and they are not linked in any other way. People can can, look at it and kind of infer that it's you because it's every year, every month you're getting in the same from from the same place, the same time, the same if they know, for example, the the wallet of your employer.

And and it's it's much easier to know the the wallet of a company than to know the wallet of a person because the the the wallet of a company, I I'm I'm pretty sure that not not long from here, governments will demand to know all the wallets from companies.

And so so this is going to soon every every this information will be very easy to know and and very common to, for example, chain analysis tool. And so you need to so so this is a simple behavioral privacy leak that you might not even think about it, but it identifies you in same in some way.

So time timing analysis and and amounts are a problem. What what do you think is a good way for people to deal with that now? Is it like receiving lightning or being paid in Monero or using pay join or like what's what's a good way around it if people are in that position?

Or or obviously, the other one is, like, the the employer not to pay the employee at the same time, same date, every every month would be, I suppose, a way around it as well.

Yeah. We have to there there's a

I believe that there is no as I told before, there there's not a one single bullet. There's not a silver bullet. There's different ways to to deal with it. And one way certainly is to use PayJoin.

And but there there could be problems in using PayJoin as well. For example, if you're using PayJoin, all all of the employees of the company will know each other salaries. You know what like, okay.

Now now people from outside, it's harder for for they to track you specifically, but it's easier for you to track your colleagues. You understand? Mhmm. Or pay them. So there's gotta be a there's gotta be a nice way that someone can deal with this or lightning like we said before.

Because, yeah, that is a big problem that that would cause big problems within a company and also with the tracking. The other thing I've noticed in the mining space is a lot of people I don't know if it's still the case, but we use reusing addresses or some even giving x pubs out to to

to get their payments come through, which is also a pretty big problem, which is something where pay NIMs was a a nice option where they could get their payouts without having to reveal the same address each time.

Yeah. I think that for for that case this case specifically, one thing that could be a good option is to use silent payments. Silent payments is never it's not very it it's not widely adopted yet, but I I think this could be a very good way to to deal with it. And

the the thing is that it takes a while. It's a there there's, like, trade offs as I as I told you before, but it's a it's a very good way to to deal with it.

But, yeah, other like, the the 12 detections that we are using right now is address reuse. So let's say you you repeat the addresses, of course. Multi input ownership. So if you're if you're use several different inputs

in a in a transaction, we can it this can, of course,

show that probably those belong to the same person. Also, spending, dust there there's a common dust attack that people send a small really small dust transaction to you so they can start tracking what you do with them after you spend with more with more money later.

Also, change detection. One one example of change detection is through address reuse. So if you pay someone and you send the change to your own address, again, it's obvious what part is the change and what part is the actual payment.

So this when you when you detect this, this leaks a little bit of information about you. There's also consolidation. When you're consolidating your UTXOs, they they you will basically link all your UTXOs together, and so your best transactions become linkable.

There are some some UTL it u it UTXO age spread as well. Some sometimes you have a very old UTXO and you spend a newer one together. So they can infer, for example, how long you

you've been in Bitcoin space. So probably if you spend a UTXO from 2013, they can infer that you might have a lot of Bitcoin maybe and try to make some some some range attack for you.

Exchange origin, of course, if if you're spending something that came directly from an exchange or or not necessarily directly, but it came from an exchange. It can the exchange for of course, will be able to track this this information.

And, certainly, chain analysis will be also being able to do it because chain analysis gets this information from exchanges. Tainted UTXO, merge, and also some behavior finger fingerprints.

Perfect. Thanks for taking us through that. We I'm gonna hit a couple of listener questions. Some of them have come through live, and some of them are presubmitted. Thank you to everybody that has submitted questions either way. This one comes from Matt on Twitter.

And he said, sorry. I joined late, but where is the cluster from? I presume, Bruno, from everything that you said today that it's all internal to the addresses and coins within a specific wallet descriptor and their relationship to one another. Is that right?

Yeah. It gets from both wallet descriptor, your public wallet descriptor, and your your own full node. So from your public wallet descriptor, you can create the addresses and from and and get the UTXOs.

But after we get the UTXOs, to understand the transaction history, you need to source them from from your Bitcoin node. So and that's the the source of information.

Alright. Perfect. Thanks. We had a presubmitted question from Smoke over on Twitter. And they said, assuming that this runs locally, which we've obviously established it does, what does a finished product ideally

look like? Could this be built into Spyro Wallet, for example? And this was my first thought actually when I saw this. I was like, you know, Spyro already does a very rudimentary version of this where it detects sort of

address reuse within the active wallet, but it feels like it could be made so much more powerful with, you know, implementing some of the logic that you've got here. So how do you foresee that in the future?

Yeah. I believe that this, of course, can be built inside inside an already existing wallet, but I think that could be even more powerful if we can use in basically every wallet. If we can just, like, export the the public descriptor into this app that could be an app in your phone. It's it's not very right now, it's it's

kind of big and heavy just because, like, we we did it, like, rushing, but we are going to improve it. But it doesn't need to be. It's it's could be very lightweight. It could be an app in your phone and also a desktop version.

So you just input your public descriptor there, and it it does your what it needs to do.

Yeah. I think where where this obviously, the information itself is very powerful, and what we can see on screen here is very useful. I think the next natural link is is being able to take action, you know, simple action based on what you can see here because, like, when you see,

you know, some of the warnings here, you you still have to get a base level of knowledge as as to how to start. And with, obviously, that that type of action that you need to take is specific to the wallet software that you you interact with. So for me, if we can bake this sort of logic inside the app itself so that it's, you know,

the action to actually fix the problem and prevent it going forward is much simpler. That's where, you know, this becomes even more powerful when we get some sort of false multipliers.

I know Seth has got a question to come in in a second, but before I unleash him, I'm just keen to hear, like, where you guys, other than what we already covered off, where you'd like to take this next? Is there any features

or implementation details that you haven't gotten around to yet that are that are on the road map that you're able to to share with us? Yeah. Sure. Besides refactoring and and make it way better because it's it's kind of clunky, there there's lots of other heuristics that we want to want to put in.

There there's, like, time pattern and fingerprinting, amount fingerprinting. Like, for example, you always spend the same the same amount in a in a certain time. There there's lots of these these other heuristics that I think they are super useful that we could implement them.

But, also, there is, of course, like having main net support, having a mobile app. But also, I believe that one thing that would be very useful is a natural cluster visualization, not only looking at the heuristics by themselves like the UTXO as a long string, but if we look as a as a network of transactions

and understanding how they are linked together, it could be easier to understand and also to improve the suggestions, the the suggestive actions to take. They are they are very they are they are very in like, we we didn't put put much thought in over

them. We we want to think a little bit more about them and and make them more precise, specific, and and more actionable.

Yeah. Ideally, like, one click solution. Like, click here and solve your problems. I I'm not sure we are going to be able to get to this point specifically, but this is the the end goal. Like, this is your problems. Click here. Solve them all.

Yeah. One one question I wanna jump in on, I guess it's kind of two separate questions, but kinda two main things jump to mind here. One is, like, as someone building a wallet, this type of thing is something that I would love to surface to our users. Do you have any plans to make this stuff

like, I don't know exactly how you would make this extensible to WalletDevs to easily implement. Maybe that's just documentation that explains how you detect each thing and some tips on how to do it. But it would be great to have something like this upstream in BDK and other Bitcoin SDKs that are widely used so that developers

can easily expose, like, hey. If you make this transaction,

this will show. Or on this transaction you made in the past, you should be careful of spending these UTXOs. Or when you're in coin control, showing these kind of flags would be really cool. So I'm kinda curious. I'll just finish with that first question and jump into another one second.

Just kinda curious, like, how you think about that getting it integrated into other wallets. I know Sparewell was mentioned before, but I think there's a lot of Bitcoin wallets that would love to surface this type of,

really kind of security and privacy info to their users in a an easy to understand way like you're doing here, but without requiring you to run a a server, that sort of thing. That's that's a very good idea, actually.

I I didn't think about this before. I'm not sure if Georgie and Herb and and Renato talked about it. But one way to do this, now that you you said it, was to be would be to create a library and a a separate library that we use for Stealth, but

that is completely open source so anyone could use it and use it inside BDK or whatever other libraries that they are they are using. This is this is a this is a good idea, like, the app itself from the heuristics catching, like, the vulnerabilities

the vulnerability catching, it's a it's a good idea. Yeah. I would I would love to see that. I mean, the, like, the main reason I ask is because I know most users, unfortunately, won't go to these links to run something like this. The hardcore ones will, which is fantastic. But I would love to see this type of information

with just with how easily vulnerable you become from a privacy standpoint when using Bitcoin if you use it incorrectly. I would love to see this in every Bitcoin wallet so that you know

you know a bit more about the issues that you're running into or what you've done in the past that could cause problems in the future, that sort of thing. I think it'd be really cool to surface. So definitely would love to would love to see that that kind of library created so we can do it more easily.

My my second question for you is just kind of, like, long term, how do you how do you expect to keep this project running? One thing that's tricky in the chain surveillance state is that Chainalysis, etcetera, have hundreds of millions of dollars in funding. Like, obviously, you're not gonna get there, but what's your

what's your idea for how long term you'll continue to iterate, continue to add new heuristics as they're developed or discovered?

Is that something that you've thought about yet, or is this I I know this was spawned out of a hackathon where it's not normally a a long term vision of this lasting five years, but I'm just kinda curious how you're thinking about it evolving from a kind of arms race with Chancellor and Company's perspective.

Yeah. That's a that's a great question.

It it's kinda funny because when Herb and and Georgie brought me this idea, they brought the idea just like, okay. This is a exploit edition. So let this is related to to exploits in Bitcoin. So let's do this this idea. And, like, guys, this idea is amazing.

We should like, this should definitely exist. And regardless of of hackathon or whatever, we should look for a grant to continue developing it. So so this is my my first idea. I also thought about it a little bit on on, like, if would be a product

for a company, like, if we could make a but I I I'm I'm not sure if this could be, like, easily monetizable. But and and also, like, if it wouldn't be bad for for the purpose itself. Like, if if I am charging you to to do this, like, are the are the the

are are you going to use it? Maybe you would, but lots of people wouldn't. So so I'm I'm thinking about, I don't know, talking with, some some grants. Mhmm. Like HRF, Spiral, Brink. I don't know which one's been shown.

And then, based on that, maybe after the the the it's done, it's it's like being useful not only in a in a stand alone way, but being useful for for for other wallets and wallets starting starts to use our our stand alone library for for for privacy leaks,

maybe maybe, like, even the companies want to support it to because they are using it. Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll say a couple things. One, like, if if you did create that and K Wallet started using it, we would love to help

help make it easier for you to maintain long term. Like, that's something we've done with PayJoin. We've done a PayJoin v two, contributed upstream, and now we support the PayJoin Foundation.

So these types of things that it's not easy for you to build a business model around, but are the that are vital to exist. Like, yeah, I mean, we would love to support that. Also, if you do reach out to specifically anyone at brink, h r f, or OpenSets, I'm more than happy to to

put in a good word for you as well. So please do let me know if you you do that. I would love to see this get a grant because it seems like the perfect kind of thing to get long term support for so I can keep improving.

Awesome. Yeah. Let me just just said here that she'd like to help. And there's an x here, but I I cannot see her her actual x handle. So but but I believe that you you know and you can

connect with her later. Right? Yeah. No problem at all. I can make sure that you guys link up. We are already at time. These these hours already always go very fast. Guys, I just wanna thank you for for building an awesome tool. I really look forward to accessing it on main nets so that I can

run it over my own wallets and see how good my privacy practices have been over the years. Thank you very much for for building what you build and continuing to to do stuff, particularly in the privacy space, which is very needed at the moment. So keep doing what you're doing. Thank you to everybody that's also stopped by to

to to listen and to watch and to post their questions. And as always, thank you to Max and Seth, my cohosts. This has been Freedom Tech Friday, and we will be back with more of the same goodness at the same time next week. Jorge, Braino, thank you very much. Hope you both have a great weekend.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you very much, Jess. Bye.

Thank you for listening to Freedom Tech Friday. To everyone who boosted, asked questions, and participated in the show, we appreciate you all. Make sure to join us next week on Friday at 9AM EST and 2PM London.

Thanks to Seth, Max, and Q for keeping it ungovernable. And thank you to Cake Wallet Foundation and my Nim Box for keeping the Ungovernable Misfits going. Make sure to check out ungovernablemisfits.com to see mister Crown's incredible skills and artwork.

Listen to the other shows in the feed to hear Kareem's world class editing skills. Thanks to expatriotic for keeping us up to date with Boost's XMR chats and sending in topics. John, great name and great guy, never change and never stop keeping us up to date with mining news

or continuing to grow the Mestadel. Finally, a big thanks to the unsung hero, our Canadian overlord Jordan, for trying to keep the ungovernable in check and for the endless work he puts in behind the scenes.

We love you all. Stay ungovernable.