AI Pro Energy & CoinHeated

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Welcome back to another episode of Plebminer Month, the extended version, the version that cannot fit within one month. In this episode, John speaks to coin-heated and to Anton from AI Pro Energy.

I lurked in the background for most of it, jumped in with one pointless question and then fucked off to do another interview. So not much of me in this one, but it was a brilliant interview.

And I love what these guys are doing. Make sure to check them out with the links below. And as they said in this recording, just reach out to them if you have any questions. I love how open these guys are.

I love how innovative it is. And I also really like the fact that they've got a phone. They can actually phone and speak to someone which is fucking cool. So, yeah, that's all from me. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who's been involved in Plebminer Month.

Really is incredible to see just how much content we have. And, well, we just couldn't fit it in a month. So it's a good problem to have. We have, I think, three or four more episodes in total to come.

So look out for those. And I just want to say thank you to my sponsors. Firstly, thank you to my anonymous sponsor who has made it possible for me to continue this show. I really do appreciate it.

It is pretty mind blowing that someone I've never met or spoken to listens to the show and gets enough value from it to give back. So thank you so much and to everyone who's been involved in the value for value using fountain or breeze.

I really appreciate it. Every sat helps and I love all the personal messages. I also want to say thank you to Foundation Devices. Foundation Devices are making my favorite hardware. They are also going to be doing two giveaways that were supposed to be out weeks ago, but just too much content.

So look out for that for the chance to win a Foundation Devices passport. They are fully open source. They are fucking gorgeous. And they're so simple to use. Check them out at foundationdevices.com.

And if you decide you'd like to buy one, you can use the code bit by bit. You will get $10 off. Next up is FastBitcoins. FastBitcoins are a team based in the Isle of Man. They are a KYC service, an on-ramp, an off-ramp for anyone looking to interact with Bitcoin and dirty, dirty slave notes.

Although I push very hard on this show for nobody to use these KYC services, they do continue to support this show. And I'm very grateful for that. What I would say to anyone is if you are going to use a KYC service, I advise against it and it's amazing they actually support this show.

But if you are going to use one, you really need to make sure you use a good one. These guys, in my opinion, are the absolute best. They really care about their users. They do everything they can to protect you.

They push you to get those sats off exchange. They do not want to hold them. And they don't do any extra bullshit compliance like some of the other fucks out there. I have a huge amount of respect for this team.

They are always at the forefront. They were the first exchange in the world to implement lightning, Danny Brewster and the rest of the team are fucking awesome. So if you are going to use a KYC on or off ramp, go to fastbitcoins.com and enjoy the show.

- Good morning, Anton. Good morning, coin-heated. How are you guys? - Doing good, good morning. - Morning, John. - Good to go, thank you. Thank you for your attention. - Yeah, thanks for all of your participation in plebminer month.

I think it's going pretty well so far. We are recording on the third day of plebminer month. And already we've given away a t-shirt and given away a hoodie. Today's giveaway is a seed signer build.

So it's pretty exciting to provide the plebs with that kind of gear, but also exciting to bring them innovators and creators like you guys are. So why don't we start with coin-heated? Can you kind of explain who you are just real quick, even almost everybody knows, and then Anton?

- Yeah, most everybody, but-- - Yeah, I will most everybody listen into this podcast. - Just to play that hard, I heard about Bitcoin back in the 2010, I really didn't understand it. I mean, hardly anybody understood the back then.

And I was just like, what is this weird internet money? What am I going to use it for? There's no exchanges. It's worth like almost nothing. And it's like, I didn't get it. And then for the next decade, when it started actually gaining in value, it's like, oh, I missed the best.

Oh, I missed the best time. Oh, I missed the best time. Oh, I missed the best time. And then finally in 2020, I'm tired of saying that. I'm just going to get into this. I don't care. But I mean, I didn't really, I wasn't on Twitter.

I didn't know any groups. And so I just kind of did my own thing. And then I learned about immersion pretty quickly. And then I just got completely obsessed with that. And I started heating my swimming pool and I posted a YouTube video.

And then that got shared by somebody. And I actually think it was Neil, Ronan Miner on Twitter. And he shared it out. And then all of a sudden everything exploded. And now here I am. - I remember the evolution of that whole thing for seeing it being posted by Ronan Miner.

And then I think you had a YouTube channel up as well. And like I immediately went to that. - Yeah, I shared it on my personal account because I just meant to share it with like a friend of mine or something.

And then all of a sudden people are subscribing to my own personal one, which just only has like four videos at all, you know, it's nothing. And then I'm like, okay, well, oops, this is too much.

And so then they just made a different channel for that. I've not really put much video on there. I'm not trying to make it be a content creator and it can wild like that. But just needed to keep it separate from where, you know, might have videos of my kids playing around or whatever.

- Yeah, that was kind of a smart move. But I saw like, wait a minute. I'm starting to get popular on Twitter here for what people are coming to look for, that kind of content. And I don't want my kids birthday party.

- Yeah, like what the hell is this? Why am I subscribed to this? - So you start getting into immersion and building all of your machines. And from what I, what I remember, that they were all kind of in aquarium tanks on a rack.

- Yeah, and so good. - Type environment. - Yeah. And so what I did is, I mean, I was on a shoestring budget. It was just, you know, I'm not rich by any means. And just doing what I can. And so, you know, I found people doing it in aquariums and I figured out that a 40 gallon breeder aquariums, only 50 bucks at Petco or whatever.

And I did that and set it up on the cheap for the most part. And had a lot of learning, which is good. I definitely enjoy that. But at that point then, that's when, you know, this in my video, I started to go up on the pool being heated.

And then that's how I found the guys over at AI Pro Energy. - Okay, so. - I should say that's how they found me. (laughing) - Anton, you saw it coin heated out once you saw that material.

What did you think when you first saw it? And why don't we back up a little bit for a second? Anton, why don't you kind of go over who you are and who AI Pro Energy is and what you guys do?

- Yeah, absolutely. Anton Guadalos, I mentioned partner at the AI Pro Energy. We are mining infrastructure company. So we manufacture and service in, you know, mobile mining infrastructure and technology.

Sounds cool, you know, offensive. But in reality, everything started from home, you know, mine and home. We grew up outside of home trying to place our miners somewhere and learn about shipping containers, both ones, modified 350KW, moved out on interesting energy, so it was like natural gas, which was likely to find one of the location

back then and then decided to build a little bit more later and, you know, end up to be in manufacturing. And, you know, just with containers and then one of those days, we are just browsing, you know, YouTube, not just some interesting video and I was coin heated, you know, showing some of this cool thing

that he's doing with his aquarium. And actually, almost like the next day, we already jumped on the plane as my business partner said, like, "Let's fly from Texas to Minneapolis and meet the guy."

So it's been like a couple of days, just, it's amazing. I mean, yeah, it's truly innovator and in general, everything I see, you know, Twitter play a significant role in a progress with just meeting people in miners, generally, plot miners, they really, in a way risk, taking a lot of decisions fast and major capital.

- Yeah, we don't have any investors or a board or anybody to please but ourselves. And so you guys saw the aquariums and the setup that he had and the pool and you fly up to the great, the great white North to see him and visit with him.

And what about his setups that were different and coin heated, you can kind of go into this too? - Sure. - About what, you know, what you were doing and Anton, what did you see that he was doing that was interesting, different from everybody else?

- Yeah, definitely. Simplicity, it's a big deal. You know, we already observed with, you know, on mobile mining containers, you want to be related with a plug-and-play, simple, and then efficient.

And he just, based on his like, you know, gaddish lap, it was amazing. He tried all kinds of variation of placing heat exchangers in different ways. And one of them most efficient was when he just used minimum fluid, place miners as close as possible, put radiator inside essentially.

And then using miners fans to move fluid around with like, you know, everything was bubbling and that was obvious, it was pretty good flow happening. And then we asked like, hey, is it reliable, coin heated?

And he said, yeah, we've been running it for like eight or at that time, eight months, I believe. - He's like four months by then. - Oh, okay, okay, yeah, and an absolute deal was just for laughing technology, he's an amazing guy.

And he said, like, how can we be part of it? And that's how we started. - I should say I've been running fans in oil for like a year at that point already. And you know, there's, there's the chain of fire, like, oh, you can't run fans in oil, that's terrible.

And it's gonna use at 10,000 watts of power. And you know, it's like, no way, I mean, come on. You know, it's an electric motor, it's in oil. So it's gonna be lubricated. And I've actually not had a fan failure, maybe only one at this point.

- And you could have that in the air pool environment as well. - Yeah, exactly, it's exclusive to fluid. - Right. The amount of flow going through was so substantial. And then in addition, you didn't need to really make any other mods.

- And so I was doing the, I was doing fans in the aquariums to begin with, just to get some flow through it. And then, you know, I was kind of just thinking, I got completely obsessed with this thought.

And then this is when Anton and Artum come down and they're like, okay, we wanna make a tank for a container. And so I'm like, all right. And then it just got completely obsessed with the most efficient way to do this.

And so, in my mind, I just have this open cloud of space in my mind. And then I have this miner just floating around up there. And then I have oil going through it and somehow magically circulating back into it.

And like, how do I make this into a real thing? How do I cool that oil in the loop? And I ended up taking a water to air heat exchanger and redesigning that in a way that it was inside the tank.

And then I used, you know, I just used the fans on the miners to circulate the oil 'cause it was already doing far better than pumps would and it's dramatically easier and it's less modification 'cause you don't need to, you know, flip the cards around it.

So far, as I know, every other immersion setup where the oil comes from the bottom, slowly rises up through the top and then you have to flip the ACic cards around because the flow is in a very specific way and that has to remain.

But then you have to flip the PSU and control board around because the cables come out, you know, they have to come out the top unless you can somehow have all your cables come out the bottom, which I don't know how you do that.

But, and I'm like, why am I doing all this? And then the last thing was, you know, pretty much everything else was designed with a more generic size and capacity. I'm like, well, you know what?

I'm just gonna make this only for S-19s and that's it. Nothing else fits. I don't care, it's not a catch-all solution. So I started off with just S-19s. I made it only for S-19s and I made it exactly perfectly efficient just for those machines to work in exactly that way.

- I just wanna give everybody a little bit of context that's not exactly familiar with immersion systems. A lot of the initial immersion systems kind of stood on a rack or a standoff and you could mix match all kinds of different miners in a giant tank and just kind of expect the laws of thermodynamics

to work there and he just gonna rise up through the cards and you're gonna kind of have an overflow on one side of the tank split off by a divider and that's gonna get pumped out to be cooled.

A lot of times that single loop dielectric cooling is gonna go out to be cooled and then get pumped back in. But what you're doing is a two loop design and you're not depending on the laws of thermodynamics, you're using two of the fans that are on the S-17 or S-19 to draw the fluid from the top down through the machine.

- Which keeps the flow the same way that it was designed for. I mean, it was designed with airflow but the oil flow or the heat flow remains the same, I should say. - And I'm sure that's kind of been a hurdle for you to get over and I've seen it with myself interacting with people in the immersion group

and then you've kind of been in there and the two of us and other people in the immersion telegram group are like, they just don't get it. How have you been able to get over those hurdles of people not initially understanding what you're doing?

- 'Cause I don't worry about it and. - Oh yeah, that sounds like you. - Yeah, like, you know, 'cause I just made this thing and like, look, this works. And, you know, if you don't believe me, just try it.

It's really that simple. I've been running it for, I said I've been running fans in oil for about a year, but by the time I kind of finalized the hotbox lead design and I did a lot of research on computers and stuff that were running oil and there's reports of like, yeah, we've been running fan in oil for three years or something silly.

And there's the whole, like I said, there's the, oh, fans use so much power, it's crazy. I'm like, well, you know, I looked at it at an absolute max draw of 12 volts, you know, whatever amps I figured out is like maybe 150 watts.

You're going to have to move the oil, whether it's an actual large pump or if it's individual fan, like, I mean, you're moving the oil, it takes X amount of energy to move the oil. So, you know, I didn't really worry about that so much.

You know, if you're talking about absolute maximum efficiency, you're probably looking at something else anyway, you know, or like absolute minimal cost savings. But what I did with the tank is I completely removed the oil fittings.

And that was something that always annoyed me is trying to find CPVC or, or oil-rated stuff, you know, oil-rated hoses. You'd have to get like hydraulic lines or, you know, there's stuff out there, but it's difficult to find.

- Yeah. - It's expensive. And quite frankly, it's like, why, why are we even doing this? Just because everyone else has been doing this. - And that's kind of how my brain works is like, I just basically throw everything out the door and be like, okay, let's start with absolutely nothing.

And that's what I was saying, kind of like in my head, I just started with this ASIC in the kit, you know, just floating out there with a loop of oil magically floating back to there. And then I started putting things in place in my mind that like, you know, would actually work in reality.

And then that's what I came up with at that concept. And like, so the only thing coming in and out of the tank is a water loop. It's technically a two-loop system because there's an oil loop, but it's all completely inside the tank.

And then there's a water loop that comes in to an external source and goes after cooling somewhere else. - And just to say like the CapEx on going immersion is already pretty high. And a big chunk of that is the fluid itself.

And so a lot of these systems like, you know, when engineered fluids kind of came out with their, their slick system and all the other systems after that that you're using a lot of that fluid, which is very advantageous for engineered fluids 'cause they get to sell a lot of that material

to be pumped around and cooled, but a water glycol mix is pretty cheap. So I want to bring things back to Anton. You guys, you guys go up to the great north and you see that he's doing things differently.

And so how did you kind of bridge that gap? You're like, all right, well, you're some guy in a garage who's got, what was at the time, he hit like 800 amps somehow. - 400 amps just for, just for A6.

I mean, because I had 600 in the house in total. I had 400 just for the A6 outside and then I had 200 for the rest of the house plus. - I remember it being quite a bit in your old house. So you go in-- - I put you in the transformer, like Excel had to come out and then my backyard with the trucks and everything three or four times.

- There's no greater war story than that. So Anton, you go up to Minnesota and you see what he's doing. How did you kind of say, okay, let's bridge the gap here. Let's go from a guy in your shed or in your garage to manufacturing something.

- Yeah, I'm sorry, so we obviously was excited with the system and we saw the cave. We'll try to build essentially some kind of ecosystem around this and we just return back to what we do good and we saw like, well, we built containers already at scale.

So let us try to build a immersion cooling container. And for that, maybe we need to start from using, you know, building those replicating those tanks and going through engineering design, like we got engineers and all this and just checking all this thermal modeling just principles.

And what is interesting at the beginning when we're now an engineer run model, he's like, well, it doesn't make sense. It should be a definitely improved, you know, placement of this radiators and area of flow and it doesn't look right.

And so it was an interesting communication between John and engineer and John actually won, you know, engineer at some point said like, listen, I think actually what John designed, it's actually more efficient than I thought.

And let's keep it as is. And he've done it after extensive modeling. So what John come up with was obviously very, very efficient. And then we got, we already believed in technology and to start building racks.

We built slideable racks, like, you know, free, you know, free tanks, per rack. At that time, we didn't discuss much about, you know, gentle overclock. We were thinking like, okay, we go like 4,000 watts.

Maybe that would be already good without noise and everything. - Yeah, not something extreme, just a 500 more watts over. - Yeah. Yeah. And so that's why I kind of overclock, it's a second milestone for us.

But yes, we built racks and then from racks, we kind of backed off and said like, well, let's simplify it. And maybe instead of doing slideable racks and going to continue our solution because, you know, it will take a little bit time.

Let's go fast and actually serve B2C market, serve web miners and try to bring something that handy, you know, not bring extra cost. I will be affordable. And we end up just, you know, building tanks itself and working more on overclock and working more, you know, optimizing electric and some other stuff around it.

And this is where kind of second milestone happened when John came over here to us. And we've been on a real field project when connecting all those, you know, tanks to chiller and testing how we can, how far we can go with overclock.

- Yeah, that was a whole different thing. So we're having like 42 degree Fahrenheit water. So I mean, it's cold water coming in very different than like, you know, what I was doing with a swimming pool and there's some different challenges with that.

But that's when we really got to see how much it could really overclock in that tank. And it was actually pretty wild. - Can I interrupt you for a second? Was this testing, was this testing in Minnesota or was this testing in Texas?

- This is testing in Texas, but it was hooked up to a chiller loop. So you got the really cold water coming in because of a chilling system.

- Yeah, and what is interesting, like in early experimentation, we didn't even change PSU. I don't know if you, you know, want to go to details, but yeah, we want to go into details, yeah.

- Yeah, stop PSU handles 5,000 watts. And the tank itself very easily handled all six at 5,000 watts. But we found that 125 amp PDU does not handle 30,000 watts. And so we're like right on that border of 125 amps.

And so we had to find a better PDU and then go to three phase. - And that you, did you guys get alpha minor power supplies? - Yeah, we used to type for minor, we actually put a couple of other suppliers, you know, PSU's that we installed.

- And could you name them? - Nobody's a sponsor, just to get more of the information out there for everybody. - Yeah, so it was my bit going, one of them, I'll double check exact name and one stop miners, the one stop mining they provided us is a fanless PSU's.

- Correct me if I'm wrong, but they were stock PSU's that had the hardware mod done to them. So they're not ground up built from scratch, like the alpha minor ones, they're the modified stock PSU's that have.

- Yeah, and companies like Kaboom Rax will take the PSU's and make the mods and resell them. Kaboom Rax is also helping out with plug minor months just to give them a little plug. - Yeah, and we communicate with Kaboom Rax and definitely are looking forward to test PSU's.

Just by that time we already grabbed three vendors and we just didn't get there, but we'll be absolutely playing to test it and they're looking forward to it. So, but meanwhile, just let you know that we bought a few 6,000 watts PSU's and runs them up to 6,000 watts.

And then we actually ordered 10 kilo on about 8,000 and then went to 8,000. - Wow, 8,000 was instantaneous and John can talk about this, but we went to the biggest one actually and most data was 6,500 and I would let John probably explain why we actually stopped at 6,500.

- Go ahead, Coinheated. Just for the audience, so there's no confusion. Coinheated's name is also John. - Right, well, we kind of stopped at that. And what we found was at 6,500 watts, having the flow that we had with the chilled water we had with the specific, the tank that I designed was,

that's basically the max thermal amount of BTUs that we could suck out of that small tank. And we're gonna probably look into doing a max overclock tank which actually has more cooling on top of that, but it's 6,500 watts on all six miners.

So what is that, 40, it was like 40, 44,000 watts. Something like that, I don't know, I'm just doing math math. Quite a bit though. And six times 32, 35,000 watts, something, anyway. - That's for $69,000, yep.

- There we go, yeah, that's right, it was almost 40,000. It was just shy of 40,000. And so, and we had that running 24/7. It was fine and good and it's no problem. Like I said, on stock PSU, no hardware modification we're running brains, so there's a firmware mod.

But completely stock hardware, 5,000 lots, all day long, not even a problem. No, I did take it to the furthest extreme, and I forgot who posted this, but there's somebody that posted like a overclocking challenge and then the efficiency challenge.

And then I took one of the machines up to 8,700 watts and it starts getting unstable at that point because brains only goes to 6,500 by default with auto tuning, they just haven't gone beyond that because you really, I mean, it's such an extreme thing to go anything beyond.

Even at 6,500, you're literally talking double the wattage going into it, right? I mean, it's a 100% increase, so it's substantial. And you're just not gonna be doing that at home 'cause you give it to somebody, they're just gonna go, wow, cool, I can go to 12,000 watts.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. You need a team of professionals for that. And that's it, I mean, you're talking to all kinds of things like you need thicker cables, like you can't even have standard cables anymore 'cause the 14 gauge stuff isn't even gonna handle that kind of amperage, you're gonna literally burn

through your stuff and it's dangerous. It's flat out dangerous is what it is unless you've really fat through every single aspect of it. So doubling the overclock there, doubling the power input from 3,000 something to 6,000 something and beyond, you're still keeping the fluid within that tank, that self-contained fluid in there

at a reasonable temperature. What is that temperature? Between, I think it went up to about 140 degrees Fahrenheit. It's right around there, it's pretty stable. So that kind of leads to a conversation that we can have here maybe in a few minutes or so.

140 degree heated water, that's got a lot of applications to it. So that just happens to be a nice sweet spot. I wanna backtrack for a second to get you guys a story straight here. You get together, you say, okay, let's develop this hotbox Leo.

Let's take the principles of coin heated where we're using the fans and drawing it down and the heat exchanger and all that stuff. And now you're taking the fluid from the heat exchanger, the secondary loop, you're running it through a chiller.

How did you say, okay, now that we have this box, it can be used in industrial applications in your racks and it can be used in the home for the industrial applications Anton, what did you have to modify for your containers to make that happen?

- Yeah, I would say like containers, we do have full design and at this moment we still, you know, produced only for B2C or B2B if you want, essentially not going beyond four tanks in a set.

Obviously it's model that you can go beyond for incrementally adding them. But in terms of modification, I think one of the things really it's just you need to think about electrical, whether you have free face power or not, you know, if you have single face at home, you might be, you know, to the extent limited

how much overflow you can achieve. But-- - Especially if you get a three-phase dry cooler. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) Yeah, and for three-phase, yeah, thank you for reminding. For three-phase-- - You're welcome.

- Yeah, and yeah, I brought these three-phase dry cooler and it is a way to go that we definitely plan to kind of get some of them for home mining to single-face using inverters. So there will be, and this goes back to manufacturing and actually even kind of offering this product and just thinking like, okay, how to make it still simple?

Okay, box is simple. You connect, you know, plug stuff in and remove top fans and keep bottom as an engine and essentially keep running it. But how to make sure that it's more like standardize and it's probably a good idea to offer 40 kilowatt dry coolers and dry coolers, obviously, as you guys know,

it just, it's good to put anyway, even in backyard. Of course, you need to think about your noise and that's kind of separate conversation people often ask about, you know, what kind of a noise level is acceptable.

You know, so we agreed on 40 kilowatt dry coolers, 70 and 120. That's kind of where we are right now. And then, based on this, you kind of add in boxes, like three boxes, two boxes, one box.

Actually, it goes in the reverse. But yeah, that's kind of how packages start forming for offering to essentially a plug miners and someone who trying to be between, you know, home and industrial.

- Would you mind just describing for people that aren't familiar with that process, what a dry cooler is? - Yeah, dry cooler, essentially, it's kind of a big heat changer with a fence placed close to it.

And there's different ways how those heat exchangers can be placed. Often, there's a table type, essentially, a V shape. And through this, inside of this heat exchanger, you got this copper tubes, small copper tubes, through which water glycol flow.

And as we know, water is the most efficient heat removal of, you know, removing fluid. But we need to add glycol to prevent, obviously, freezing. And then more glycol yet, a little bit less efficient your system became in terms of heat removal.

So you need to be mindful, usually, how much glycol you would like to add, whether it's-- - All right, so that can be tuned to the specific area that you live in. - Exactly, so, and there's a chart simply available in Google search, you can look, but you can consult with someone who advances this.

And I'm sure, John, you'll be covering, you mentioned this conversion of heat and there will be separate topics, so I'll stop here. - And that's really the one thing that I find most interesting about immersion is that you can scale the cooling way beyond the air cooling that you would ever get.

You know, and I think about, you know, like having them down in Texas, or in Arizona, or Nevada, you know, like out in the deserts, or even any of the Arab countries where they just have extreme heat, almost all the time, running in them on air when you're bringing in 110 degree heat to begin with is already difficult.

But once you take the surface area that those, you know, that the Asics have, you put it into the oil, then you can expand that out, you know, pretty much exponentially, as much as you want, to put that heat out into, you know, out into the air.

So you're not confined by whatever the machine can do, you know, the amount of surface area on the actual machine goes, those heat sinks on the chips themselves. - Yeah, no, it's a good point.

You definitely need to think about the surface areas and we discuss it, you know, and for hot, a hot area, especially if you go aggressive on our clock with hot boxes, we consider, we're not yet announcing it or showing it, but we definitely consider for really hot areas if you want to go extreme, like 60, you know, 6,500 watts.

We didn't mention about terraheshes, obviously it's changing depending on how efficient you run. On chillers, we was able to reach 165 terraheshes at 6,500 watts steady and just go from day to day and on tire box, you know, not in tire box, but in individual miners, you know, full of those as 19s.

It was, by the way, 110 terraheshes machines. - And you do lose some efficiency. I mean, you know, the stock efficiency is like 29. I forget what is it, like the hash is per watt? - 29 joules per terraheshes.

- That's what it is. And here's something for something. And it goes up to about 38, you know? So, and it's, so at double the, it double the power, you go to like S-17-ish efficiency. But the cooler you keep it, the better efficiency you get.

So it's kind of a, you know, it's kind of a wash. There's a lot of things that you can do. Like, let's say you have access to a very large water reservoir. You can actually just use that huge reservoir to cool stuff.

Or if you have a, you know, a natural spring and you're just going to run it through there, you know, there's so much you can do potentially once you have the heat in, you know, in that liquid and then you can cool it in many other types of ways.

- I think that's a good way to kind of describe to people what you mean by surface area. You know, like air cooling, you only have so much of that exhaust that is available to cool in the intake.

But a heat sink on a secondary loop can be almost anything. It can be a hydraulic loop in the ground, just a bunch of coils, you know, ran four feet deep in the ground. What do you have an average temperature of something like 58 degrees Fahrenheit in the ground?

- Yeah, the ground, yep. - So you run a giant loop, 200 feet down and 200 feet back and back into the machine and there's your heat sink. You can run it down well. You can run it on a radiator and run water over it.

Like you said, if you have access to a spring or run it into a pond. - I just thought somebody actually do, so they had a heat sensitive switch. And so when the temperature of the water loop reached X, it would bring in tap water, basically, you know, or groundwater, it was from a well.

And so that's that 60 degree water. And it would introduce that as needed, keeping a perfectly steady temperature of whatever they wanted. - If you can keep the, sorry, I'm just jumping in, I've been lurking for a long time.

- Who the hell is this? - Yeah, I've been lurking in the background. - Where's this? We've been hacked. - Yeah, you've been hacked. I was just wondering, like, the life cycle of these machines, if you can keep this consistent temperature and you overclock them, as their study's done on, like, how long these things are gonna last?

Are they gonna burn out quicker? - So, I mean, if you overclock, I mean, you're definitely going to, you know, it's gonna be harder on the machine. There's just no question about that. You know, it's like, you know, are you redlining your engine in your car?

If you're just, you know, if you're doing it on every stoplight, it's like, it's gonna have a lower, you know, lifespan. But when you keep those temperatures better, you know, if you really keep that consistent, you know, S17s are notorious for being just finicky and high failure rate.

But what I found is even with the minimal overclocking, when the temperature was stable, they just ran and ran and ran and it was fine. As soon as you start getting temperature swings, you start getting, you know, much different problems going on.

And so when I think about immersion and stuff, when I, you know, keeping those temperatures really steady is a lot better for them as opposed to dramatic cycles of incoming cool, you know?

Like, so I think about, like, out in oil fields and stuff, like when they're doing the flare gas usage and stuff like that. And if you, on air cooled, you have a dramatic temperature difference in 24 hour period that those, it's gonna stress those machines more.

And even more so when you have it, you know, if you, up in the Northern area and you go through seasonally, you can go from a hundred degrees Fahrenheit down to negative 30 in, you know, one year's time and having that major change all coming into the mire is gonna be, you know, it's gonna be a stressor.

- Yeah, so the consistency is key. - I guess it's just like if someone's considering overclocking and using immersion, they've kind of got to do this calculation where they take the capex of these machines and everything and then they work out.

This is then a depreciating asset. And if I'm overclocking it and even if it is steady, how much quicker will they burn out or, I don't know how you work this, it work it out to be. - There's a lot of variables in it.

You know, it's gonna be like, why would you do that? - Why would you have less efficiency just to get more hash and then at the same time, like there is less than two years until the next having?

Why wouldn't you get every last bit of hash going right now before the having and get as much as you can right now? Like, why would you, you know, why would you go down and overclock, you know, or excuse me, go down and underclock just to have the maximum efficiency, you know, both are completely legitimate, you know, ways to do it.

- What's your personal preference? Do you want the absolute maximum or do you want the absolute most efficient? Or, you know, it's up to you? - Yeah, I think one additional point I'd like to bring about this heat and specifically hotbox and dry coolers, you know, for hotter areas, you know, area inside,

obviously video is an air to fluid radiators that actually essentially used fluid to fluid. It's a different conventional way of doing it and John come up with this. And so there is definitely a so since temperature plays substantial or all inefficiency in hot areas, we even consider right now is two radiators back to back

installed inside each tank in a base version. But we might consider it even third one, just going through some of those hot areas, you know, hot states and observing what's happening on the efficiency side of cheap, you know, speaking about Celsius trying to be just close to 70, 75 on cheap temperature.

So it's probably opportunities to go with higher without any impact if you stay steady, but, you know, and that's at least target for us. - What's your target temperature for the oil? Is 77, 140 degrees, what's your target chip temperature?

- 75C, I think is what they were reading, like 75 to 80 at the most. - Yep, that's kind of what you was trying to stay at. And you have to obviously watch every minor, just to make sure that, you know, it was a conversation the moment about removing some of the stickers, you don't have anything that abstracting the flow

for your multiple engine that they actually like distribute the engine to your fans that move fluid. - Actually, no, I do, we were 70 to 75 at 80. We were like, "Whoa, why is this one too hot?"

So 70 to 75 was our target for the chip temps. - So when you, so you have a wall of machines in a container air cooled, that you can take a flier camera and see that you have certain hotspots on that wall and kind of identify what machines are running hotter or where are my gaps and my heat dissipation techniques.

If you were run a flier camera on your hot box, can you see that the middle two machines are running hotter or does it, you keep a good general temp in the whole box? - I do have one of those and I did, when I was, I haven't looked at them in a long time but I was looking at them with the aquariums

and I had different setups in the aquariums and so I was doing those flier images and I was looking at where those hotter spots were and like which one was which way and all sorts of things.

And you can see it pretty easily just from the chip temps but with the setup, there's not really much difference at all, maybe like one or two C between the machines next to them and it's almost, I mean, it's almost so trivial that it could be any other little thing but the way that it is, 'cause that the heat exchanger is in the center

and it goes from end to end all the way through. So each machine has a basically an equal amount and the way that the water goes through there, there's so much of that equally distributed all along that that there's really not much of extra hot spots in there.

- Yeah, and I would like to say that if one of those engines failed and we talked about fans on the miner, you still can run on the box and one of the things when you remove top fans, it becomes essentially your spare fans for replacement if you ever need it.

So essentially you're getting additional evidence just out of the box. - Anton, I know that you hired an engineer, right, like a thermodynamics type fluid engineer. What has it been like watching the back and forth between he and coin heated and coin heateds?

Kind of, well, I've done the proof of work kind of thing here and you have studied in a different way. What's that dynamic guys? - Yeah, I'll start off with this. And so the way that I work, I work a little bit more fuzzy logic in the like, I'm not writing down precise measurements and doing like real time calculations

and I'm not doing stuff in what's the, not out of CAD but solid works, I kind of have a sense of things and I have some rough measurements and some rough targets of what to go through and what makes sense into my mind.

And Anton had already mentioned this before but basically, I made my design, we turned it over to the other guys and he's like, "Well, if we did this in this other way "and this flows this way instead."

And then after a while he came in like, "Oh, no, actually this original way was the right way." - Yeah, no, it's absolutely interesting to observe those dynamics and in a way it's a balancing act but I truly believe what going here that came up is we are going back to numbers and trying to figure out why, for instance,

something not coming together. But yeah, we were forcing to get someone to make sure that we got all the thermal maps, especially speaking about scale-up projects on Chile so going to different cooling media.

But at this moment, tendency right now for at least engineers says like, "Well, if you go to super hot areas, consider one more "or maybe even two more radiators inside." And then at some point he even mentioned, "Maybe you guys at the top, your friends that you're moving, "I know it's for splashing, it's kind of in one fence,

"it's a bottom, it's enough." But if you keep it for those hot areas, actually you have even more flow inside, just putting miners as is inside back to back and you'll be able to merge those flow to the flow that you get to your dry coars and then you'll be able to achieve even more cooling efficiency.

So all these kind of interesting concepts, we're not removing them from the table, obviously it's first principles, so engineering design versus first principles that are coming up from coin-heated.

But from other standpoint, they agree on some stuff like additional radiators potentially will be added to a little bit wider box that we'll introduce and talk about in the future. - So that gives you a lot of flexibility when a customer comes to you and say, "Hey, I'm mining in Dubai, hey, I'm mining in Alaska, "I'm mining in Argentina."

To where you guys can take these heat sinks and different ways that the machine, that the hot box itself is configured and tune it to the customer. Have you had to do that yet? Or use this too early phase of production?

- Well, so the tuning comes into the cooling solution itself. So the box itself really is independent and there's those two parts to it, right? It's what kind of cooling do you have and then what's your ambient temperature?

And really then it's just scaling out whatever cooling solution you have. 'Cause like I said, maybe you just have a stream nearby and you have constant cool water, you can just pick it up from there and send it back out.

And if that's allowed and it's available, great. If you're in the middle of a desert and you have nothing but hot air, then you've got to scale it differently. - Yeah, at this moment, we've been staying with the same box, essentially and just moving a little bit with you guys, feedback actually, it's very thankful to early adopters.

There's a great feedback coming up on a place and PDUs inside or some other stuff, that's kind of quite interesting. But we try to change as little wearables at this moment as possible and work on external site, as I'm going to hit that mention about cooling.

There was interesting requests to using lakes to cool. It was interesting request when engineers especially need to jump on board when we kind of go in modular from three tanks to four to five and trying to use same pump, you know, one pump instead of two.

Those kind of hydraulics optimization and heart numbers needed. And often really, if you're not going beyond 50 feet, you'd really stay with the same design that you designed for, you don't need to oversize your pumps, essentially, for circulating water glycol.

That's kind of example that I'm talking about. One of the things which is important for dry coolers, and it's coming up from engineers very often as a reminder, please place your dry cooler a little bit about the ground.

You know, he's very, all the time cautious about making sure it also does not come in. You know, then placing, whether it's IP 5465 on fans, it's important, you know, there's classification, obviously 65 or more.

It's great, you can watch it with a stream of water, a heavy stream of water without any issue. Well, IP 54, it's a little bit more sensitive. It's stay good on still on rain, but if it will be like some kind of hurricane stuff, it's kind of less sensitive, you know, more sensitive.

So there's stuff definitely to consider. And again, in all this, back to miners, the question is, will you guys provide what comes in the package? Do you have, you know, valves, pumps, and dry cooler?

So you just got dry cooler. All this, like, obviously, is standardizing, trying to make it as easy as possible. And really plug in place a goal and make immersion mining affordable. That's kind of mission that we put right away.

And that evening when we met, it's going ketate and decided to add to our air cool solution in our stream. - Do you guys offer kind of like a consultation before you place an order to kind of get an understanding of what the situation that the box is going to be placed in, what they're going to use as a heat sink?

Do you offer that kind of service? - Absolutely, thank you for asking this. This is a great question. We offering free designs and, you know, it's not, you know, advertising here, which is saying that really we want to help and do 2D 3D drawings for the miner, making sure that everyone in agreement, how everything will be placed,

especially if you're not on location. We just learned recently that, you know, from some of those like city locations in commercial buildings require, obviously some professional engineers, stamp of approval.

So all of the drawings that we provide, it's actually a good input for, let's say, license engineer to accelerate, jump and get approval as soon as possible. So it's complimentary, it's free.

- It's nice that you guys kind of have that dichotomy of professionalism between coin heated, between you guys on the business side and the engineering side, that you can have an engineer tonight, design something and then coin heated could come in practically and say, hey, I've actually run into that situation before,

I'm the garage mechanic, I'm the inventor, I'm the innovator of this particular product, and kind of get that real world input from him. That's a good team. - It's been a good back and forth between us.

- Yeah, he was blessed to have this. And as I said, like he's coming from first principles. I like how you see, how you think, my business partner, Artian was super excited, both of us was, yeah, this is the way.

And yeah, he's actually, he's learning by doing, look at his gash, so many variations, he made his mistakes while we should go and do it again. - Oh yeah, I've done a lot of mistakes, trust me.

- Yeah, that's real proof of work. So this is plebminer month, and kind of what we're tuning towards is small scale miners, garage miners, people that are gonna start out at home, people are gonna start out at garage or a small business and potentially build up from there, because that seems like the natural progression of things.

You always want more machines. You always want more hash, you just kind of get that addiction. - Yeah, so there was one S9, a 20 gallon fish tank, cheapo pump and a $26 radiator from Amazon and off I went.

So it can definitely be done and it can be fun. I really enjoyed it. - So let's talk about how somebody gets involved with you guys, gets involved in the machines. All right, so let's use me as the example, and this will kind of help me out.

Talk to you guys at a conference, both of you. I see one of the prototype boxes. I order a box, I have my machines, I want to put machines in box. What do I do now? - Pray. - No, I'm just kidding.

- Yeah, no, basically if you're already older machines, you're older the box, you need to make sure that you have your, let's say, dry cooler other contacting us, older in yourself. And then if you do it other in yourself, just make sure that you can contact us or just go by yourself to size properly walls and pumps.

There's no huge magic going on around this, but we'll be able to support you. It's just essentially a connection site, hydraulic and electrical. There's two things really to worry about. And then obviously you need fluid and for fluid, there's multiple options on the market, as you guys know, from premium products to less premium.

And we personally testing multiple of them right now, but I'm sure you get all in experience. And if not, let's discuss. - What kind of prep do I have to do on the machines in order to get them donged?

- Basically just take the stickers off is the biggest thing. Obviously, and then the only other thing I'd say is if they're used and they're air-cooled, take it apart a little bit and blow it out and get all the dust out.

- Yeah, you have to decide also whether you want to, how far you want to go with overclock. That's kind of a good question to us because it will determine your PDU, it will determine essentially your PSU, whether you need to upgrade or not.

And PSU ranges, by the way, in prices from 300 to like say, 500 depending on how fancy you want to go. - There used to be a lot of discussions, you know, when Vixbit came out, DCX came out with their tanks as to whether to remove the heat sinks and remove the thermal paste.

What is you guys' opinion on that? - You know, I've left it on the thermal paste and stuff and my, it's not going to chemically change the fluid in there at all. It's already not conductive so that part doesn't matter.

There's not enough of it. The only thing I would say is if you're going to take it back out of immersion and go back to air-cooled and why anybody would do that, I don't know, but at that point you would need to re-evaluate the heat sinks and the paste and everything else before going back to air-cooled.

Other than that, I just take the stickers off 'cause it will dissolve the adhesive of the stickers and the stickers will come free and clog things up. - And you always have more stickers than the assault.

(laughs) - Including the fan. - That's more kind of than you think, there's ones on the fans, there's ones on the side, there's ones here. It's like, man, how are there any stickers down here?

- Yeah, how are you? - Go ahead, Anton. - No, I said, like, usually once you find it, find that some of the temperatures start changing, especially in the early stage, you're like, okay, it looks like one more sticker, I think.

I forgot about it. - So you have tank, you have PDU, you have cables, you have fluid. - You put your machines in the box, well, first you prep it, you take the intake fans off. Do you need spoofers on those fans or on those machines?

- No, you don't need spoofers, and that's kind of one of the beauties of plug-and-play and coin-heated approach, just removing and overriding some of the complaint from brains that we typically use to run it and it works perfect.

- So now with the stand-offs. - Yeah, I should don't real quick on the-- - The three of us have kind of, I'm sorry, go ahead. - Oh yeah, I just want to say one thing on the fans. If you're using stock firmware, then you would need to do very different things, but the reason that spoofers are not required

is because of aftermarket firmware, such as brains, I think the niche would do the same, although I have not specifically used that. You cannot use stock firmware and run fans and in immersion, it's just not gonna work.

- I want to kind of get into the control board thing here in a second. So the three of us have kind of been back and forth a lot throughout the past months about stand-offs. Now those machines need to be up off the bottom of the tank a little bit.

What's the solution that you guys have come up with? And can you kind of talk about the journey of your thought process? - So I do use a really basic 3D modeling and I have a 3D printing.

So I was just going through like general ideas of how do I get this oil to flow, coming, sucking it down through and getting it to go over to the side and then back up through. And the wonderful thing about 3D printing is you can just, I mean, it's not super fast, but it's a lot faster than making a mold

and going through an actual design process. I can make something printed out and the next day, I've got something to test with. So I went through a lot of different designs and a lot of ideas that were complete rubbish and ended up on one that was really a lot more complicated than it needed to be.

And even at the fastest speed, it still took like 18 hours to print one thing and it took a whole, an entire kilogram of material. And it's just like when we're looking at it, like, yeah, it works, but how do we do this?

And we can look into doing a poor mold. In the end, I actually went back to much simpler thing of just doing a folded aluminum standoff, which is what we're gonna go with as long term. 'Cause really the only thing that you need is to have it up off the bottom by about 50 millimeters and then have that downward oil forced into the center

of the tank, which then forces it through the fins of the heat exchanger and then back up and cooled along that half of the back in again. - But the fluid has nowhere else to go. - Exactly, it just cannot go anywhere.

- Yeah, and standoffs coming up is a box just, you know, and the latest design or the solomonum design, it's actually super simple. It's again, the purpose is to lift minor, creating individual channels of flow, even minor, top minor at the level of essentially your radiator and radiators right now,

you know, there is special size that currently designed for the box. It's actually Jones, you know, experimental. He tried different stuff and I think that was the last one that we are not going to change for a while.

And yeah, it will be part of the package and it's very, very simple to install. - Charging the secondary loop. So say a customer chooses the dry cooler option. You're gonna need a certain amount of water, you're gonna need a pump.

Do you need an expansion tank for that secondary loop and describe the customers what they would need to do, like what they would need to describe to their plumber or their HVAC guy or to themselves in order to get that secondary loop charged up with a water glycol mix?

- Yeah, essentially you will need the tank to mix water glycol, we'll provide you essentially a volume that you will need. There is a absolutely needed expansion tank, there's a standard, I'll reconfigure, I think it's like 14 liters, double check, five gallons expansion tank.

And at close to expansion tank, we'll have a connection to the pump that will be used, you can connect pump and charge the system. There will be procedures provided and we'll do a lot of videos and Jones also on the way to the probably couple of good videos that will be in a simple terms, explaining how to plug and play and stop throwing

in as quick as possible. - Can you offer people support if they had, they choose a different heat sink? So just to kind of reiterate on that. - What do you mean? - Well, a way to dissipate heat from that secondary loop.

- Oh, instead of a dry cooler, I mean? - Yeah, not everybody has to choose the dry cooler option. - Yeah, and when you say you think I was thinking that would be actual on board. - Oh, the radiator, the heat exchanger.

So like we went. - Oh. (laughs) No, not necessarily. In a thermodynamic sense. - We'll be offering support and already offering support. Absolutely. Just let us know dimensions and as much details as possible about your essentially heat exchanger, your friend, and we'll be able to, and make sure location, like draw it by hand,

just send it to us. We'll be able to design for you. And I tell you, at least from engineer standpoint, always it's efficient or not, or you need to upgrade yourself on fence, or just add a little bit more, you know, the increased size of the heat exchanger.

And it inspects, it will be like tubes, dimensions, and density, there's multiple things that you don't necessarily need to understand, but just try to get from your manufacturer supplier as much information as possible.

And if you have detailed drawings, and we're talking about installation of two free tanks, like a little bit big installation, not just one tank, we can do all this 3D model, you know, design and just, I mentioned, it will be complementary as soon as you get boxed on it.

We understand all this, you know, it's not, occasionally it's not straightforward, let's begin, but in reality, it's just plumbing work. And yeah, there's a lot of plumbers around, as I just need some guidelines, and guidelines will be provided.

- I just wanna say, you know, for my personal experience in knowing you guys over the past six months or so, that you guys are stand up guys, and any time that I've reached out to you guys, even for the stupidest of issues, or attempting to make my own stand offs, you know, or, you know, kind of the issues with,

that we've dealt with and run across, that you both have been men of integrity, and just a personal attestation, I'm impressed with both of you. Not to get too bushy. - Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I think it goes back, you know, really, I'm a pleb at heart, and I'm appreciative of everything that everybody else has done before me.

And just because I came up with this completely different way, I wouldn't have gotten to where I've gotten to, if all those other people before me hadn't done all the things that they've done.

Like, can you even put an ASIC in a, you know, in a tub of oil and, you know, use different firmware and all this stuff? It wouldn't have never even happened if it wasn't for all those people, and answering questions and stuff.

So, you know, I just like giving back, and, you know, I'm not in it for the money, I'm in it for the Bitcoin. You know, if that makes sense. - Yeah, totally. - You know, just Bitcoin's money and whatever, but yeah, it's just, you know, I'm doing it because I actually enjoy it.

- Yeah, John, you didn't mention about all your achievement through this communication. You've done a lot of cool stuff, from standoff preaching to beautiful, painting beautiful, beautiful, beautiful blocks and doing all this innovation of how you place and stuff.

You should brag about this. That's kind of very, very impressive. - Well, just the pictures on Twitter will be enough. (laughing) We didn't get a chance to talk about kind of, I think, one of my favorite things and one of Coinheated's favorite things.

So, we'll have to have you guys back on the show to talk about what we can do with that secondary loop and not just take it out to a dry cooler and waste that. I know that's something that we're all very passionate about.

- That's the biggest thing, yeah, absolutely. - So, I think that kind of deserves its own podcast. - I would agree with that completely 'cause there's so many options. - I think you and I kind of sat in the, or you and Sarah and I, after the afterparty of that conference, just nerding out on all the possibilities

that what we can do with waste heat. That's the conversation in itself. - Yep. - Guys, I really appreciate you stopping by for Plevminor Month. I appreciate your contributions to the community and helping out.

Where can people kind of see the hotbox and how can they order one? And how can they interact with you guys? - Yeah, at this moment, we are located out of Houston, Texas. Email actually provided in a telegram, also a telegram on a Twitter and website, info@aiproenergy.com.

We sat like working as a team with Coen Heated and both of us and we got engineers also. Ready to support, we say 24/7, we try to be 24/7, your installation. Yeah, I think that's kind of easiest way, just DM in Twitter or just send a mail, just call, there is a phone number as well.

- Yeah, and my DM show is open on Twitter too, @coenheated. - Guys are on behalf of Max and Mr. Crown and all the ungovernable misfits that are involved in Plevminor Month. We really appreciate talking to you and hearing from you and hope to talk to you again in the future.

- Likewise, thanks for having me. - Yeah, thank you for the invitation. - Thanks for listening. Make sure to check these guys out. I've put all of the links in the show notes. In fact, that's actually a lie, I haven't.

John did all the show notes because I'm too much of a retard to do proper show notes. So thank you to John. He's actually been doing quite a lot of that really helping me out and I really appreciate it.

Also a massive thank you to Mr. Crown. Mr. Crown is the man behind a lot of the design on the website, a lot of the clothing and he really pulls everything together. He lurks in the background.

He's not someone who really likes a huge amount of attention on him, but he's a fucking genius with this sort of stuff and I absolutely love working with him. Even if you do nothing else today, make sure you go and do this.

Follow @Mr. Crown. It's a fucking disgusting spelling, but I'm gonna read it out anyway. It's @mrcrow n n n n n n.

Go and do it now.