Arguments Against Vaccine Mandates with Zach Herbert

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

[ Laughs ]

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and deliver to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back, all you ungovernable misfits. Today, I have a very special show. It's something a little bit different. Today, I have Zach Herbert back on the show, the CEO of Foundation Devices.

But we're not talking about Bitcoin. We are talking about COVID vaccine mandates. Zach recently wrote an incredible article, and I said, "Let's get you back on the show. We need to talk through this.

This is so important if you want to keep our freedoms and fuck all these governments who are trying to push for it. Anyone with their eyes open knows what's coming. We've been seeing it for some time, and we cannot let this continue.

Zach has put a set of arguments against COVID vaccine mandates, and he's laid it out so clearly. I've put a link to the article in the show notes, so you can click on it and read through as we go.

I really think this is important. It's so good to have one article with all of the data here. So when we are arguing with these lunatics, we can stand our ground and be confident. I really hope you enjoy the show, and I hope this article will be useful for you.

Before we start, I want to say thank you to my show sponsors. Zach actually is one of them, so thank you, Zach. Thank you for writing this article. Thank you for making such incredible products with Foundation devices.

Thank you for making the passport, and for anyone who hasn't already seen the passport, it is my favorite hardware wallet. It's fucking incredible. It's fully open source. You can go to foundationDevices.com and use the code bit by bit to get $10 off your purchase.

They have just reduced it by 33%. It's fully open source. It's so user friendly. And yeah, I really can't recommend it highly enough. Next up, we have Casa. Casa are making it incredibly easy to upgrade your security.

You can have multi-sig with them from as little as $10 a month, and you will also get an additional 10% off your purchase if you use the code bit by bit 10. They're incredible. I've been using them for over a year now, absolutely hassle-free, and I really do sleep sound at night.

Go to keys.casa and upgrade your security today. Next up, we have FastBitcoins. FastBitcoins make it incredibly easy to stack Sats. You can do this on the Lightning network. You can do this from thousands of retailers across the UK and now globally.

Go to fastBitcoins.com to see what they're doing today. Enjoy the show. Zach, welcome back to the show. Thank you, Max. Great to be here. It's very romantic here. I've got a candle going.

It's dark. It's cold. I've got a talusca storm. Nice bottle of whiskey, single malt. I've just opened and from our conversation off air, I think we're going to really get into the weeds. So I'm looking forward to it.

Welcome back on a nice speech again, mate. Thank you, you as well. I think, my people are a little jealous. I got city construction noise in the background. I've got my green tea here. I don't think I have the exact same vibe going on, but I'll do my best.

That's OK. You've got a bit of a time zone difference there. A little bit, yeah, still working afterwards. [LAUGHS] Right, so how do I introduce this? I think, well, firstly, a few weeks ago, you sent me an article.

Be honest, I don't normally read many articles because I am a dyslexic fuck. It takes me a long time. But I thought, because it was you, I'll spend the time and I'll read through it. And I was really impressed.

Like, you put something out that I think a lot of people wouldn't have the bottle to do. And certainly, a lot of people who might think they'd have the bottle wouldn't have the patience to go through and so meticulously pick through something that I think is the most important thing that's going on in the world right now.

So before we jump in, thank you very much for doing it. For anyone who's listening, I'm going to be linking in the show notes the link to this tweet thread and not tweet thread, sorry, article so people can follow along.

Should we sort of kick it off with why did you decide to write it and then maybe go through it a little bit? Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I feel like this is going to be a pretty different type of conversation for me as well because I've done podcasts before, obviously, with you and then others.

But all Bitcoin related, all related to what we're building at foundation devices, nothing to do with specifically the state of this crazy world and specifically COVID, which is obviously a really polarizing subject.

Maybe not as much amongst the Bitcoin community. But even within, I think there's a lot of polarization. And within the families, too, that we all have, and the friends, and the peers, and our neighbors.

I think there's just a level of polarization that maybe we say is unprecedented. It's probably not historically, but it feels that way and at least for everyone who's living today. Yes, so this is a little bit of a different conversation for me.

Yeah, it is different. But I think it ties in perfectly because I know very much the focus and the goal of what you're doing at foundation devices and everything that I'm trying to do here is trying to promote freedom, privacy, self-sophency, and the things that are happening around us are the complete opposite.

Now, when I think of Bitcoin, I think of love and freedom and peace and collaboration, and it's such a beautiful, wonderful thing. It's very, very difficult to be on the side where everyone thinks you're a loony, and everyone thinks you're crazy when it comes to money.

We've experienced that for many years, and family and friends thinking that we're nutters. And that's fine because it doesn't affect your freedoms personally, and if they don't want to understand it, then that's OK.

But this topic is something completely different, and it's so divisive. It's something I'm struggling with personally, and I was particularly happy that you took the time to write this because I'm really struggling now, and I think a lot of people are.

And I find that in Bitcoin, Twitter, and everyone that I'm speaking to, it's almost hard to concentrate on building and pushing forward because it's driving a lot of us crazy. Agreed. Yeah.

So what I did was take a break from building to write this post. And no, I mean, it's been super distracting for me as well because, you know, ignorance is bliss, right? And if you just sit back and you focus on your day-to-day and you get your news from the traditional media sources and you don't really think critically about it,

you don't question it, you just take it at base value, I mean, your life right now might be a little more blissful, right? You go around, you take your vaccines, and you just think if we all just took our vaccines, we'll go back to normal.

And so the reason I sat down and I wrote this was because I was struggling with trying to express myself to my own friends and family. And I do my best expression in writing. I always have.

Because when you're speaking, it can get very easy to get sidetracked in a certain issue. But when you're writing, it's really easy to sit down and just do something more comprehensive and nuanced.

And so I feel like I went through the same COVID journey as many people where I was very scared in the beginning. And then I realized at some point that things are more nuanced and complex and maybe not as scary as they seem.

You know, I think all the COVID news spread on Bitcoin, Twitter, pretty early on before it was on mainstream media. And I remember telling my fiancee we got to go to Home Depot, we got to buy masks, we got to stock up on canned food, you know, all that kind of stuff, thinking that the world was going to end.

And having a lot of anxiety back then and just general fear about what is happening in the world. And I normally wouldn't talk about it, but I feel like it helps my credibility here. You know, I did get a dose of one of the vaccines.

I wasn't fully questioning everything at that point. You know, I wasn't really doing my own research. But once we started talking about vaccine mandates and once I started reading a lot more and listening to a lot more podcasts and just doing the research myself, I started to realize how crazy all this is.

And I feel like everyone has to draw a line in the sand when it comes to freedom. You know, if you stand for nothing, what will you fall for, right? And mine is now vaccine mandates, you know?

And that's why I want to write this post and that's why I wrote this blog post a few weeks back. It did pretty well, you know, on Twitter and everything. But I just wanted to write something that I could send to a friend who disagrees with me and say, just read this and see if it changes your mind.

And I really wrote it primarily for myself. And then I figured, you know, why not share it with everyone else? - Yeah, well, a few things I want to go over there before we dive into the points you've put down.

Firstly, the fact that you panicked at the beginning or in a lot of us did, I think that was reasonable to do at the time. You know, as is usual on Bitcoin Twitter, we had news, we had information before it hit mainstream, before people were talking about it.

Nobody knew what was going on. All you could go on was a few crazy videos of people keeping over and coughing up blood and people putting this information out and saying that, you know, there is this virus and people are dying.

And so obviously a lot of people are saying, shit, this could be really bad because it could have been. And so, you know, I experienced that as well. You know, no one was really talking about it.

And then you sort of saw the flip, which was once most Bitcoin has come to a point and go, yeah, this seems like it's probably all right. Like it's fine. Then the fear ramped up with everyone else.

So we're always on the other side, it seems. And the other thing I would say is with the vaccine stuff, I think this is really important. I'm really pleased that if you've had it, you can comfortably say I've had it.

And, you know, a lot of people I think have it. And then are too scared on Bitcoin Twitter to say anything, which I think is really sad because one of the goals that they're going to have is to divide us.

And it's really important that we show love and respect to everyone, whatever their choice is. Even if they want to get two, three, five, 10 vaccinations, you have to show respect, you have to show love.

We need to make sure that we don't behave like the hysterical people who are trying to scream us down and force stuff into our arms that we don't want there. So anyway, that's my little ramble there, but we can jump into the other bits.

- Definitely. By the way, are you just, are you seeing my on Zencaster, my voice, like the waves? 'Cause I'm not seeing my own, I want to make sure it's recording. - I'm seeing your waves, yeah.

- Okay, perfect, perfect, perfect. - Awesome, great. So yeah, so I totally agree though about everyone should feel free to talk about if they, you know, you should feel free to not want to talk about if you got it or not.

And you should also feel comfortable to say if you got it or not, right? I think everyone, the only reason I said it was because I thought it would improve my credibility, right? For writing this post, I didn't want to come off as some kind of anti-vaxxer, right?

I think my personal story, as I mentioned before, really mirrors a lot of other people's stories where, you know, you went and you got the vax. You took one of the shots because you were really scared about what could happen if you got COVID.

You were really scared for your family. A lot of us knew that we probably, if you're younger, if you're healthier, right? That you're probably fine, your risk is very low, but we were also all told things.

We were told things, for example, like the vaccine stops transmission of COVID. And so then it becomes, you know, if you're looking back, I think I got mine in May of this year, you're looking back then when there isn't that much data, you know, you're really afraid for your family, right?

For your parents, grandparents, you know, other, you know, older relatives or friends or people in your family who might have preexisting conditions that might be at a higher risk for getting COVID, you were told, you know, get this shot or these two shots and then we can go back to normal.

You know, do this and life can go back to normal. And when it's phrased like that and when you don't have that much data or knowledge yourself, it makes a lot of sense, I think, you know, to get it.

And so I got my one, you know, J&J shot. I waited as long as I could or I waited till I felt comfortable. And then sometime in, you know, in May and I think end of April, I was reading about potential heart issues with the mRNA vaccines.

And I only saw that on Twitter. There was nothing in any publication that I read. It was just talk on Twitter. And I said, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get one of those because that seems like for my group, it might be a little risky.

So I'm gonna, you know, get the J&J one and do what I think is the least risk for myself. You know, they say one and done is (laughs) and that's what I did, right? And I honestly, I kind of feel like I've been duped, right?

And I think a lot of people right now are feeling duped. They're feeling uncomfortable. They're feeling like they did exactly what they were told to do. They were good citizens, right? Good compliance citizens.

Kind of everyone get the jab in order to, you know, get life back to normal and protect the vulnerable. That's what we were all told. And I just saw a headline today about now a potential fourth booster for this new variant.

And, you know, this is what people were memeing about months ago. And I, you know, I personally feel like I said, I feel duped and I feel like we've taken it too far and we need to draw the line somewhere.

You know, my personal line is about these vaccine mandates. I think everyone is within their own right to make their own decision for themselves. I think these decisions should be made between, you know, you and your physician or just if you don't have a physician, just you, right?

Based on talking with your family and doing your own research, it's your right to, you know, do whatever you want, right? - It should be and historically has been sovereignty over your own body.

It is pretty clear. It's pretty basic. My body, my choice. - Sure, yeah. - And that's like at the most basic, even if you ignore all data, even if it was the safest thing in the world and even if it would be the wise thing to do, you should still be able to say, no.

Just in the same way that the wise thing to do is to eat relatively healthily, not drink like a fish and smoke like a chimney and go to the gym. If you choose not to and you want to be a fat disgusting slob, that's your choice and it always should be.

And so regardless of the data, that should always be the line. But what is worrying is how quickly people are forgetting, how obvious that is and how normalized it is for people to be screaming at each other and believing that they should have control over someone else's body.

It's very scary. - I completely agree. And so that's, you know, one of the main reasons I wrote this post, I think it's what I've noticed from having these kinds of discussions is that it's not enough to just give one fact.

It's unfortunately, no matter how much we want it to be, it's not enough to say what you just said, right? Because then there's so many arguments you could make to the contrary, even if you and I both think or know that they're all wrong, right?

And so this post I think has like, I think I did 18 or 19 separate arguments for why vaccine mandates don't make any sense. And even if you just agree with a couple of them, I think they make no sense.

But I want it to be as comprehensive as possible because over the last year and a half, I've collected a huge list of links and notes and I've listened and read so much. I just wanted to get everything down in one place, right?

So that's what I tried to do. - Well, you've absolutely nailed that. What I particularly liked about it was that you have it all in one place, you read something and then immediately after it, there's a link to show the evidence for the statement that you've just made.

And I think that's really important because people will throw out these statements and I'm guilty of it myself. So like, I'll have things that I know 'cause I've seen them and I have read them, but it might have been six months ago or a year ago.

And then I'll make a statement and then I know that if someone called me out and said, "Well, where's the data to back that up?" I'd be like, "Oh, give me 45 minutes, "let me just dig through it, I'll get it for you," which then makes you look stupid because you don't have it there like ready.

So what I love about this is when someone's reading through, it's like you go, statement, statement, statement, data. Statement, statement, statement, data. It gives someone very little wriggle room to fuck around and wriggle out of it with some other bullshit, which is brilliant, it's really, really well done.

- Well, I appreciate that finding all those links was, I actually had a lot of those links already. What I kind of did was I started with the links and then I went backwards to create and put everything in order, you know, to create like the headers and the sections and so on.

And I tried to set it up as like the most obvious arguments are first and then just, you know, tried to do that, but yeah. - Well, so should we dive in? - Yeah, we could, you know, kind of touch on each one and talk about it and see what else we think of as we chat about it.

- Cool. So, yeah, so where'd you want to start? - Let's just start at the top, right? Let's talk about natural immunity. I think that's a really important part of all this. I think like at a high level, right, what we've seen is we've seen this entire issue about vaccine mandates become incredibly politicized.

We've seen it almost become religious in nature where you have to trust everything that comes out of, you know, Fauci's mouth and the Biden administration and so on, like it's the gospel, you know, and that you can't dispute it.

Fauci even said something crazy in the last week or two in an interview and he said it multiple times, said something along the lines of, if you're disagreeing with me, then you're disagreeing with science.

And, well, I mean, I'm not kidding, right? This is real, this is not a parody. And I do think a lot of people actually believe that. So like the first argument that I always go to when I'm in a conversation with someone is what about the natural immunity?

Because if you genuinely believe that you need to give everyone a vaccine in order to get us out of the pandemic and in order to go back to life as normal, then you should have a carve out in that mandate for people who have already had COVID and who have recovered.

And there's been multiple studies, but the big one was the Israeli study from this past summer where they found that the risk of developing symptomatic COVID-19 was 27 times higher among the vaccinated and the risk of hospitalization eight times higher than the individuals who had natural immunity.

So just saying that again. - And this is the one you've released. - Yeah, and this is just of anyone listening. This is the one right underneath. So if you had COVID and you recovered versus if you got the vaccine, they found that the risk of developing COVID is 27 times higher among the vaccinated

than the people who have natural immunity. And so it's not just that as well. There's also a question of how long the effectiveness of these vaccines last. I mean, we're being told now that you got to booster up every number of months, based on which one it is.

You're looking at anywhere from a couple months to six months, right after getting your vaccine, you need to get another booster. But we've found that natural immunity is also just much longer lasting.

And it's, I haven't seen anything for the actual length of natural immunity, but it could be forever, right? That's how our immune system learns versus a vaccine that you have to take every two or six months.

And so my first argument is if you're gonna do a mandate and if you support a mandate, you have to have a carb out for anyone who has already tested positive from COVID and then recovered.

- Yes. - And that would give room for, I mean, it still wouldn't be right, I don't think even to push that, but it would, so for someone like me, I would say, like I'm fit, I'm strong, I'm healthier, go to the gym, I think I'll be fine.

I would rather have someone cough COVID in my face and just go, come on, I'll pay you, just cough it in my face, I'll be sick for a couple of days and then I'll get the natural immunity and then I can just live my fucking life and you can all leave me alone.

And so if they had that, no, it wouldn't be perfect, but at least it would be semi-logical because you would be saying, well, it's unlikely that you're going to get it again. And so if the reason for having the vaccines is to actually keep you safe, then there would be some type of logic to that

and then you could sort of semi-accept it, I suppose. - Exactly, and so this, and once again, I'm not saying that this is a good idea, but I am saying that if the mandates were driven by science, we have an abundant amount of evidence that natural immunity is better than vaccination.

And so what I'm trying to say is that it's clear that the mandates are not being driven by science, right? 'Cause if they were, they would include that carve out. - 27 times higher. Just to play devil's advocate here, is there anything in your eyes where you look at this study and you think, okay, there could be a reason for this.

Has anyone come back at you when you sent it to friends or family and questioned it in any sort of logical or meaningful way where you've gone? I'm not sure I need to check or from your understanding is this solid.

The best argument that I've seen against this is that it can't hurt to get vaccinated anyway. - Right. - You know what I mean? Because then you can argue that, oh, well, just get the vaccination anyway, you'll have incredible immunity and protection against COVID.

You have your natural immunity and you have the vaccine. It must be additive. And so, I mean, look, maybe that I'm not saying that's not true. I'm just saying that if you're requiring this baseline that everyone gets vaccinated so that they can have some baseline level of immunity and then you also have multiple studies showing

that natural immunity is significantly better than you should allow people with natural immunity to be included in a mandate and not require them to get a vaccination, right? So that's just kind of based like scientific logic here and no one is really talking about that right now and it's mind-blowing to me that there's,

I don't know the exact numbers but there's a very large, obviously millions of people across the world who have recovered from COVID and they're being forced to get a vaccine even though they already have strong natural immunity.

It's also very inefficient from an economic perspective 'cause it means the taxpayers are actually paying for all these doses, right? It seems silly that you would do a blanket vaccine mandate like this without thinking about all the people that already have natural immunity.

- Yeah, agreed. There's nothing there that I believe that anyone who puts any thought into it at all can argue with so far. - Yep, so the next one I wrote, I think this is a really important one as well which is that not everyone can actually physically take the COVID vaccine.

So there's a bunch of different circumstances where that could apply. One really basic one is if an individual is allergic to one or more ingredients in the vaccine. - What sort of things could be in there that people could be allergic to?

I assume there's a lot of things. - Yeah, there's a list of ingredients. You can go look it up for any of them, right? And if you are allergic to one of those ingredients, then I don't think you should be forced to take it.

You know, if you have a note from a doctor that says you're allergic to a specific ingredient in there, you shouldn't be forced to take it. Or, I mean, which is much more common than that, is if you had an adverse reaction to the first shot, if you're doing one of the two-dose vaccines,

or even now if you're considering a booster shot, right? If you've had an adverse reaction to the first dose, should you be required to get the second dose and then the booster? - When you say adverse reaction, should we clarify what we mean by that?

Because, and I'll tell you why, everyone in my family, Bahmee, has had the vaccine, right? They love it, can't get enough of it. All of them have had adverse side effects. So at what level would you say to all the lines?

So for example, my sister fainted, my mum spent two or three days in bed, my auntie felt really sick, and felt like she was gonna faint in the car, then spent a day in bed. But she was told, oh, well, that means it's working then.

That means it's good, that means it's working. And I could go on with a list of other stories, but basically everyone I know who's had it has felt terrible. - Yeah, I had heart palpitations that night, which I never had before.

- Shit. - I mean, it was very minor, right? But I was thinking like, yeah, if this gets, if this got a lot worse, I would, you know, potentially need to go to the hospital. But I was, I was fine.

I don't know how much of it, too, I was just being nervous about it, right, versus, versus actually caused by the vaccine itself. But I think the point is that you and I should not be the ones to decide what makes an adverse event or an adverse reaction to the vaccine bad enough to warrant not getting it again, right?

That should be a choice between patient and physician. Some examples would be if you did have an allergic reaction, you went into anaphylactic shock or something, or if you had some very bad like outbreak of, you know, hives or something else when you got the shot or shingles or something like that.

If you had serious heart issues or anything that you had to be hospitalized for, right? I mean, those are examples where I think most people would agree that if you get the first dose and then you get hospitalized with some kind of heart issue, you shouldn't be required to go get the second dose.

But the unfortunate reality with many of these mandates, I'll use New York City's mandate as an example, is that when there's a vaccine mandate to go into a restaurant where you have to show your vaccine card to get into a restaurant, there is no, it's true, it is, definitely.

But what I'm trying to say is there's no room. What are you gonna pull the host or host this aside and say, you know, let me give you a note for my doctor? That's not how it works, you know?

The way it works is that if you don't have your vaccine card and it's not filled in and it's not up to date with the requirements to be fully vaccinated as per, you know, the mayor of New York's, whatever he says, right?

Then you're not allowed into that restaurant. It gets more nuanced if it's an employer because there are often car bouts with these mandates for, you know, employers and other things like that.

But it does require you providing a lot of sensitive medical information to potentially numerous people. You know, never before have we required that you give all your employer, you know, you give your employer all this information.

This medical information that most people would likely want to remain private. And so that means that you have to kind of call yourself out at work to your boss, the HR department, whomever else, you have to give them notes from your doctor and proof that you had an adverse reaction

to one of the doses or that you're allergic to an ingredient. I mean, this is a serious, you know, privacy violation. And then everyone knows at work that you're not vaccinated and what are they going to think when they're all vaccinated and you're the one that's not vaccinated?

It creates a host of difficulties. And so I would say there's privacy issues here, but then there's also issues where it's just a blanket mandate with no exceptions, which we are seeing in different places.

And I think New York City is a really good example of that. - Yeah, it's just unthinkable a few years ago that people would be asking the question, like one that really gets me is like, even people are asking, "Have you had your back shit?"

Like, "What fucking business is it of yours? "Why are you asking me about my private medical data? "When did that become acceptable? "Am I gonna come up to you and say, "What's your bank balance?

"When'd you last fuck your wife? "What sort of weird shit is that?" So that's another weird creep that's come in. And I agree, like, that there's so many issues that you start to forget these, but that alone, the privacy thing, and being singled out, especially when there's this very media-driven,

divisive talk between the vax and the unvaxed, and that people feel it's acceptable to attack each other on either side. You could have somebody, especially somebody who's maybe not so strong-willed, could really get bullied over something like this, and it could affect their career, it could affect their mental health,

it can affect so much more than the actual risk of getting COVID, having any sort of problem from it. It's these second and third-order effects that people seem to not think about. Yeah, and there's numerous second and third-order effects.

I would argue, though, it's hard to estimate, but I would argue that the fallout from the economic damage of lockdowns and now vaccine mandates where people are actually losing their jobs, they're losing their livelihood.

It's exacerbating the existing supply chain crisis that we have, which I talk about in the post as well, a little bit, where you're already having a hard time finding people to unload these trucks.

Now you're gonna put a vaccinated effect and you're gonna reduce the employee pool even further. We have an issue right now where we need people to actually go to work, and instead we're giving them more and more reasons and excluding large percentages of the population from the workforce.

Not only does that have an economic effect on everything, but it has a huge effect in terms of health, mental health, family health, depression, suicide, and some of these things take place over years.

If you lose your job and you can't find work for years, it's a slow moving thing, right? It's not necessarily something that we'd have perfect statistics about today, but we're really not considering the second-order effects here when we're thinking about things like mandates.

And I started reading last week a really eye-opening book. It's actually, as of a couple of days ago, it was the number one best-selling book on Amazon, which does give me some hope. It's called Fauci.

And it's written by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Son of the Senator and nephew of the former president. And he is a well-known vaccine denier, so he has that kind of reputation against him. But the book talks about this a bit, about all these second-order effects

and about comparing the number of, and the increase in depression, crime, all those kinds of things between before COVID and then after COVID. So I don't have anything in front of me where I could properly quote that, but I highly recommend that if you're gonna read any book about this, you just go on to whatever site you get books from.

Like I said, it was the number one bestseller on Amazon a couple of days ago. It still might be, and you read this Fauci book 'cause it really dives into all of that kind of stuff and a lot more.

- Awesome. So what have we got next? I'm slightly conscious because I wanna get through all of this and I know you are slightly limited on time. So how do you wanna do it? Should we just do like a rapid fire through them maybe?

And then we like discuss at the end thoughts on them or just stop it there's something that's particularly. - We can pause as we think of any, if there's anything we wanna talk about or any of the big ones.

I think the next one we already touched on, I know that the effectiveness of COVID vaccines rapidly decline. We all know that now. We're already talking about fourth boosters. The actual numbers are something like Moderna goes in about six months or so from 89% effective to 58% effective, whatever the effectiveness actually means, right?

Pfizer from 87% to 45% and J&J from 86% to 13%. So by now I probably am like, five percent protected against COVID 'cause it's been, there was it maybe, it's been about six months. So I'm around 13% protected against COVID now, which is amusing, right?

And I think it helps here to compare it with the first point about natural immunity where if you know that there's such thing as long lasting natural immunity, you know these vaccines have pretty terrible efficacy over time.

What are we doing, right? We're requiring, trying to mandate these things. - Yeah, lunacy. - So I think number four though, is one of the most important points here, which when I tell people this, they are genuinely shocked.

So we've been told that or we were told originally that the vaccines actually prevent transmission of COVID, right? That's one of the entire reasons. If you ask someone, you know, why do you get the vaccine?

It's so that you can protect yourself and protect everyone else. But it doesn't look like that is the actual case. And it's still early, I want to kind of contradict myself and say there could be more data that comes out to contradict this, but there has been some data and a couple of studies that have come out

that show that the viral loads, as in the percentage like the actual viral load tested like in your nose and mouth between COVID patients who are vaccinated and unvaccinated is roughly the same.

- So-- - This is a massive one. This is like a huge-- - This is huge. I know. - It's probably the biggest, to me it's the biggest one because it's the one where when I'm having disagreements with people on this and it happens quite often is that it comes down to this and they'll say it's your duty to do it for the greater good, you know,

all of this sort of propaganda stuff that they'll spew out. It's selfish not to and all this kind of thing. And it's like, would it be selfish if the transmission wasn't a factor? Like me having it or not having it made no fucking difference at all.

Would you still be saying this? And like you said, people aren't aware of this. People just-- - They're not, not at all. - Blindly believe that the truth is if you haven't been vaccinated, you're a dirty, dirty, super spreading evil selfish bastard.

And like you said, the data doesn't support that. - Not at all. And so there's two things here to unpack as well. There's the logical piece that anyone can see by looking at country-wide data, right?

So specifically, we've already noticed that the most vaccinated countries or regions in the world are having significant COVID flare-ups this winter. So I use Gibraltar as an example where they have an average of 2.79 doses per person in Gibraltar, okay?

This was back, this was about a month ago in mid-November. And they already announced that Christmas was canceled, you know, this year because they have a significant COVID spike. So we have that data, right?

We have the data that shows that clearly something's not working. It doesn't matter what you think of the studies. Just look at the country-wide data, the places that have the most, like the highest levels of vaccination per person are experiencing COVID outbreaks.

And they call those breakthrough infections, right? Which is the term heard everywhere now, right? A breakthrough infection is just someone who was vaccinated but then still gets COVID. So that's one thing.

But you could kind of try to argue that. You could say, well, the unvaccinated people are the reason for this because they're the ones spreading it or they definitely are spreading it more.

You know, you spread it less if you're vaccinated. And it helps now that we do have some papers that are coming out. You know, this one that I linked to from the University of California from, I think it was in October, you know, they actually measured at the, you know, they tested real people who have COVID,

you know, both vaccinated and unvaccinated. And the abstract from the paper is very clear. It says they found no significant difference in cycle threshold values between vaccinated and unvaccinated.

Meaning that you're just as likely to transmit COVID to someone whether you're vaccinated or unvaccinated if you have COVID, right? And so this is like nail in the coffin kind of stuff, I think for these mandates because, and this goes along very well with our whole individual freedom and sovereignty argument,

which is if this quote vaccine, and I would argue that it's not really a vaccine, it's more like a therapeutic, you know? But if this shot, if the only thing it does is reduce your symptoms if you get COVID, if it has nothing to do with stopping the spread, how could you possibly mandate it?

It becomes a very, it becomes an individual decision for you to make, for yourself, where you balance those risks yourself. - Absolutely, and then like you said, it is a complete nail in the coffin because you can say, if you take that to its logical conclusion, you say, well, they're not spreading it,

and then there are gonna be a lot of people who will go, yeah, well, it's for your health, they're trying to protect you. And then you can say, well, okay, the data shows that personally within my age group and my level of health, I've got, even if I get it, like what is it, 99.98% chance of surviving it?

So I'm not worried. - Sure. - And if you're really that worried about my health, ban cigarettes. - Sure. Or soda, you know, even, or-- - Yeah, sugar. - How about corn syrup would be nice. (laughs) - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah.

- And so if that is the argument that it's for your health, then it's impossible to argue it because we all know that cutting sugar out of your diet is gonna do 10-fold what this could ever possibly do, 100-fold what this could ever possibly do.

So it's then very obvious to anyone with any type of brain is that actually this is about control. - Well-- - This is not about health. - I would push back a bit and I would say that it actually depends on your age group.

You know, I would-- - Sure, sure, yes, yes. - Yeah, and we can look at that too, but I would say that that's where it becomes an individual decision. If you have a pre-existing condition or if you're for some reason, you know, whether that is like an actual, like, you know, you have some kind of chronic illness,

you may be obese, you may have some kind of asthma or something, you know? That is for you and your physician to discuss if you, you know, if the costs and benefits of a COVID vaccine make sense for you.

And if you're, I would say like, if you're over 60, it starts to make, I think, based on just purely the data, I think there's some crossover between where the risk of the vaccine and the risk of actually getting COVID, you start to say, huh, it might be worth at getting the vaccine.

But the point is that, like, that's not my decision to make for you. And that shouldn't be a decision that's mandated by a country, a state, a city, an employer, that should not be the case.

These are intensely personal medical decisions that each individual needs to make with their own doctor based on their own circumstances, which include your age and your overall, you know, level of health.

- Yeah, completely agree. - And then just one kind of funny thing too, if you take, once you realize that these vaccines don't actually stop the spread. And by the way, I linked to one paper here.

There is another paper that I haven't posted anywhere. I should probably go through and like update this. But I was reading a few weeks ago an article in the Boston Globe where researchers at Harvard measured one of the first big breakthrough, outbreak of breakthrough cases in Massachusetts, which is in a kind of like a beach town

called Provincetown, up the Cape. And the majority of people were vaccinated and so they did a whole study on them. And even mentioned in the Boston Globe article that the study found that the viral loads for the unvaccinated vaccinated were the same.

So it's not just this one paper. If you start doing some research, you'll see that there's multiple studies now. And I think that's only gonna grow in the coming months. So I just wanna point out like it's not this one paper.

Then the other thing I would say about this is that I could probably make the argument here that it's really, really dangerous in terms of public health to tell vaccinated individuals that they were immune from spreading COVID.

Because that means that when you get the vaccine, you think that you are now immune to getting COVID. You think you're immune to spreading COVID. And if you do feel sick, you're far more likely to go out in public, to go to work, to go to school and infect everyone.

- Oh geez. - Sure. - Second shot. Whatever you guys do in the UK, you know. - We don't do anything, we're just about to be locked down. - But you see what I mean, right? Like there's actually this like reverse incentive here, which is kind of crazy where by not being honest with the public, you're actually encouraging behavior

that can lead towards further spread of the disease. Because you go ask someone who's vaccinated, the vast majority of people truly think that once they get it, they cannot give it to anyone.

- Hmm, adverse side effects. - This one's a tough one. This one I tried not to dive into too much because if I did, it starts to make all of us look like conspiracy theorists, right? So I wrote this post to be something that you could share with someone.

And I didn't want to put anything in here that was not factual. And that was not like very non-controversial, right? So we know there's a lot of side effects to the vaccine. The easiest data to reference is that the VAERS data, which is where the vaccine related adverse events are recorded already shows a thousand percent increase

in adverse events for 2021. And historically, we also know that things are under, like these events are under reported to VAERS because they have to be actually, there's a whole process to report it.

It's not like an automatic thing. You have to believe that whatever adverse event that took place, you have to believe it was caused by the vaccine. And then you have to go fill out all these forms and submit it.

And then you'll usually get a call from someone at the FDA asking questions about it. And they'll actually remove cases that they don't have definitive proof for. So when we say a thousand percent increase in adverse events in the VAERS data, we don't mean that I went in and I started submitting reports online.

We mean that these are all vetted reports. And this is a whole rabbit hole to go down. I think the only other thing I would say about this, besides all the anecdotal stuff that you can see all around Twitter, it's very common.

I'm sure you've seen in soccer, football players in your world. A lot of young athletes, we've seen pretty significant increases in heart issues and younger people as well. I know people who have had issues personally, young people who had some kind of myocarditis there.

I know someone on a heart monitor right now, just about late 20s. So I mean, we all have anecdotal evidence, but I think the most important thing here is that there is like the thing that no one can argue with, there's two things no one can argue with, okay?

Or maybe three. One is that there's this huge increase in the VAERS data. And you can go look through that data, you can download that data, there's plenty to read about the data. You cannot argue about that.

The other thing is that countries have started halting the Moderna vaccine for people under 30. Most people do not know this, but France is the one I cited in here. France recently told people under the age of 30 not to get the Moderna vaccine.

Denmark, Iceland, Finland and Sweden have all done the same. I think it was this week that Canada did the same thing. So regardless of whether you think all the adverse events are some kind of conspiracy theory, you cannot argue with the fact that there are enough adverse events for younger people under the age of 30,

specifically for the Moderna vaccine, that countries have started either banning it for young people or strongly recommending that you don't get it as a young person. So you cannot argue with that.

This is happening, right? And the only reason it's happening is because there are enough adverse events and they're typically heart-related. - And is it typically young males? - It's specifically, it's typically young males.

Yes, it's typically men. - I'll tell you why I ask is a really good friend of mine. He's a physics teacher, super bright, brilliant teacher. All the kids at his school love him to pieces and he's one of the only teachers.

You get that cool teacher that everyone sort of comes to and respects. And so he's losing his job now because a group of the younger kids, these couple of guys came to him and said, we're a bit, we're being told we should have this vaccine, but we've read that maybe it's dangerous and we're not sure what to do.

What do you think? What do you think we should do? And he said, look, I can't tell you what to do, but I can point you towards some data and he sent them a couple of articles and he said, look, this is for you and your parents to discuss, I can't tell you what to do, but I think that you should think carefully

about doing it as your risks are very, very low as these kids are like 11, 12, whatever they are, losing his job. - That's horrifying. It's horrific, that's the state of affairs. - Yeah, and what's horrifying to me is that in the US as well, FDA just approved booster shots for I think it was now 15 through 17 year olds,

they had already done as low as 18, now it's as low as 15 years old, I think this was just today or yesterday. And they're not differentiating between J&J Pfizer and Moderna. So as there are literally Western countries, Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark, France,

Canada this week, you have countries either banning or strongly recommending that the Moderna shot is not given to anyone under the age of 30. As that's happening, you have the FDA here, you know, saying, and not just FDA, I actually wanna say, you know, forget that, you actually have colleges and universities

in the US implementing vaccine mandates and you have young people here going and getting the Moderna shots and no one is telling them not to. And I would argue that 99% of them do not know that any of this is happening 'cause this stuff is not being reported on.

And that to me is infuriating, it's depressing, you know, it's just nonsensical to me that you can have other Western countries that are recognizing the side effects here. And they're not banning Pfizer, they're not banning, you know, the other vaccines for the younger people, but they're saying, hey,

there seems to be an issue with Moderna if you're under 30. So just don't get Moderna if you're under 30. Like even that alone is something based in science and the fact that any country that's just ignoring that at this point in time, I think it's, you know, it's disgusting.

- Yeah, it's horrifying. And like you say, most people are not aware. And it's the same old story, you know, that we've experienced with Bitcoin is like, it's not always through laziness.

It is that people are incredibly busy, people are tired, people are stressed, people have been locked down for a couple of years. There's all stuff going on. They're trying to rebuild their lives if they've, you know, had work go down or jobs go down.

They've had all sorts of psychological issues. Not many people have the time to start looking into this kind of stuff. Nothing's reported on the news. There's propaganda everywhere. Anyone who's trying to speak out against it is silenced on most platforms and attacked and called all sorts of, you know, crazy names

and conspiracy theorists and all sorts of things like that. And also a lot of people just still trust their governments. Like, you know, for me, when I chose not to do any of this and very early was like, this is all absolute bullshit, I will not comply from day one.

Was not because I'm really smart and because I read up and could understand the science behind it. It's literally just me going, government say it, it's a lie. If it's on the news and the governments are saying it, if they're forcing it, it's definitely not for my benefit.

Fuck that. And so, you know, I could have been wrong. It was just because my gut told me an over time. It's generally that if they say something, it's a lie. That's not the view of most people.

I'm not saying that's necessarily right. I'm just saying, you know, that's not the view of most people. And so they're not going to start digging. And then you have these kids who are going and having a jab for something they have practically no risk from getting sick or having any issues from.

And then there's all these adverse side effects. And you're saying it's like, it's not like one country is saying, oh, this is dangerous. You just listed some pretty major countries there that are saying no.

And they're forcing it into the arms of these kids. It is absolutely disgraceful. - Yeah, I completely agree. And that's why I said it to the country, country evidence. Like, because it can get really hard if you're talking with, you know, friends or family who are not reading every single piece of information

about this, it can be really hard to have that discussion about the adverse events. I would argue that the vast majority of people have no idea that there are any adverse events. They think that this is perfectly safe.

There's no side effects even for children. There's nothing to worry about. You're a terrible disgusting person if you don't get it, right? Because there's no side effects. What we know though is that's just not true.

It's not being reported on in the mainstream media, but it can be really hard to have these conversations with someone that has not read all this information. It's like going from zero to like sounding like a conspiracy theory nut job.

And so that's why it helps a lot, I think, to cite the government, the country-wide data, to say, hey, do you know that Canada just stopped Moderna for people under 30? They'd be shocked to hear that, right?

And I think it's really important if you're having this conversation with someone to start with that. Don't try to talk about the soccer players or football players, right? Don't, 'cause that's a very different type of argument.

It's even if we see the trend, you and I, it is much harder to convince someone. But I would say start with the irrefutable type stuff where it's being banned or strongly recommended against by Western countries.

And by the way, I can do it to the top of the hour, so I think I think we're good. - Okay, fine. All right, I feel like I was rushing through a little bit 'cause I didn't wanna keep your way from-- - I'm good, this is worthwhile.

I can give it another 30 minutes. I think this is a really important conversation. - Let's skip though, we know the booster shots don't really do anything against Delta or the new variants or anything, so we can skip that one.

That's a silly one though. It's like, get the booster, but it hasn't been reformulated. Be much more convincing of an argument if it was get the booster because we've updated it with the new variants, but it's not.

- Yeah, nice. - And so, just like, this thing that didn't work after two shots. - Do it again. - And when I say didn't work, I just wanna be really clear. I'm not talking about individuals.

I'm not talking about an individual having reduced symptoms. What I'm saying is it didn't work at a country-wide level to stop COVID. You know what I mean? When I say didn't work, it's like you got your two shots and they're still a raging COVID pandemic.

- And you need more. And you need more of the same shot to be able to stop the Delta and however you say Omicron or whatever. - Yeah. - You need more of the same shot that hasn't been reformulated.

See, I personally, if I was trying to sell this to the public, I would be reformulating these things as fast as possible, which is probably what's happening right now. - Yeah, repackaging it.

But the other thing is, it's a bit like in 1984, it's like we've always been at war with Oceania and they're questioning, well, were we, who were we at war with? And it's like, you forget what's actually been said and what's happening because the world's so crazy.

And I've sat down with family and I've said, look, you've had shots, even though I told you not to, you won't buy Bitcoin, you won't listen to anything I say, but can we just draw a line in the sand and say, what's the point where you start to question this?

Is it that you have to have a booster shot every six months, every three months, every month, every two weeks, is there a line where you'll say, well, hang on a minute, I've had vaccines before in my life and I've had it once and then I've not got that thing and I've then been fine and I've gone on about my life.

That's how traditionally, when I think of any other vaccine that I've ever had, I've sort of had it and then I never have to think about it again. That's it, it's done. I think sometimes it's important to not in a combative way, but just to say, where would you say no, I'm not gonna do that again and remind people

because this was not meant to be a quarterly jab. That was not how it was sold to the public. - It's supposed to be two weeks to find the crap. (laughing) - Let's not forget about that, right?

But no, I mean, I completely agree and let's talk through some of the ethical stuff here, right? And that's the next part in the post about the Nuremberg code, human rights, forced vaccinations, all that kind of stuff.

'Cause I like this line of argument. Before we talk about the Nuremberg, well, yeah, let's briefly talk about the Nuremberg code. So after World War II, after all the disgusting, you know, things that the Nazis did putting, you know, experimenting on people, right?

Like actual medical experiments. Like this, not like the COVID vaccine. I mean, let's be clear. Like this is truly a really fucked up. Like on twins and things like that, like truly disgusting things that I don't even wanna talk about here because yeah, that just ruined the rest of my day.

But, you know, afterwards they, you know, there's something called the Nuremberg code that was written, which is a, you know, it's basically, it's a high level standard for medical ethics, right?

And so I'm just gonna read just, you know, small block of text here. So amongst other requirements, this document enunciates the requirement of voluntary informed consent of the human subject.

The principle of voluntary informed consent protects the right of the individual to control his own body. So we've heard informed consent a lot, right? We've heard that term a lot in the last several months.

And so that's something that even if, like if you participate in a clinical trial for something, you know, that you'll have to read something and be told about the possible side effects, you wanna have a full understanding of the potential, you know, pros, cons, side effects and so on, you have to get the patients informed consent,

right, meaning that they have to be knowledgeable of the treatment that they're being given. You know, that you can't just be like, this is gonna be good, sign this document. That's not informed consent, right?

So, so let's be clear. So that's one aspect of the Nuremberg code. And then just to read from a specific section, the voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent, should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice

without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching or other ulterior forms of constraint or coercion. So that's what's really important here 'cause a lot of people will get so angry with you if you bring up the Nuremberg code stuff.

They'll say this is completely different. This is not, we're not talking about medical experiments on individuals. We're talking about approved vaccine, you know, whether it has the full approval of your respective health department, you know, or whether it's under an emergency use approval, whatever it might be, right?

We're talking about, you know, vaccines that are approved by the government. And we're not talking about forcible vaccinations, right? Well, we're not talking about anything like that. If you ask the person, if it is acceptable to pin someone down and stick a needle in their arm,

I think the vast majority of people would say absolutely not. And I think, well, yeah, that's true. But I'm gonna say at least right now, I think the majority of people would object to someone being pinned down and stuck with any kind of shot or, you know, regardless of what it is, right?

Just that scene if you close your eyes and imagine that, right? It's disgusting, that's inhuman. And so let's talk about, you know, specifically it says without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress.

So that's where I talk more about. - Do you have coercion there as well? - Coercion as well, any kind of constraint or coercion. This is where it gets really messy, exactly. And so this is what I talked about in a couple of the subsequent points.

What does coercion mean? I would actually argue that, look, I have nothing wrong personally with anyone making whatever decision they want for this vaccine for themselves. But I think we need to be really clear that COVID vaccine mandates are forced vaccination programs.

They're extremely coercive because what you're saying is you either get this vaccine or we take away your job, we take away your participation in society, and oftentimes we'll even take away, like your ability to even buy food, which is crazy to think.

And so when you view it like that, I think it really is enlightening where if you threaten that someone's gonna lose their job, that is coercion. Because if you lose your job, you're unable to pay your mortgage, you're unable to buy food, you're unable to support your, take care of your kids, right?

Like this is really, really bad stuff. And so if you are advocating for a vaccine mandate, you're basically saying, I don't think that you should be a member of society, you shouldn't be allowed to work, you should be poor, you should be unable to support your family, you should not be allowed to go outside,

maybe you shouldn't even be allowed to go to the supermarket. And that's really what this is. And I feel like no one frames it like that, 'cause if you frame it like that to any normal person, it's gonna give people pause, but no one's thinking about it like that.

- It ties in so well with, you know, funnily enough, this exact thought process was the thing that pulled me into Bitcoin, the hardest. And I remember watching a talk from Andreas Antonopoulos, but it was like 2016 or 2015, he'd done the talk, and I was watching it and he was talking about what happens if we go to full digital money,

what happens if we eradicate cash, what happens then if you go to the wrong protest, say the wrong thing online, you speak freely about something that you're passionate about, but your government doesn't agree with necessarily, you can't buy food, we'll switch you off.

Good luck, you're gonna starve. And I remember like thinking that through and thinking that is actually possible, that is really fucking scary. And I can see how we can get to that point and how people will nod along and allow it to happen.

And I remember that moment of that penny dropping and going, "No, I'm all in," because I cannot accept a world where this shit happens and I fucking know it will. And this is just, it's obviously slightly different, but it is another way where they're controlling behavior, they're not actually physically locking you into a room

and saying, "I'm gonna hold you down and put this in your arm." But like you said, when you can't feed your family, you can't go to the shop, you can't participate in society, you can't do your work, everyone's gonna discriminate against you.

- Can't go to the gym, can't stay healthy, you know? Can't leave your home in some places, right? I mean, they're starting to implement lockdowns for the unvaccinated. - It's fucked, it's fucked.

- Yeah. - It's fucked. So yeah, side note, but yeah. - Yeah, I just want to stick up for like the general population though. I think that if you phrased it to them in the way that we're phrasing it now, it would give people pause.

I really do, I'm cynical, but I'm not so cynical yet. Maybe I should be, but I'm, I still think if you say, look, you know, are you pro-vaxx mandate? Yes, definitely, right. Okay, well, do you think an unvaccinated person should be allowed to buy food?

Then we start to get into some interesting things here, 'cause I think the vast majority of people are gonna realize that this is crazy. And then if they say, you know, well, they should just get vaccinated, then you say, well, what if they can't get vaccinated?

You know, what if there's, what if they're allergic to one of the ingredients in the vaccine now they can't buy food? They're more allergic to tyranny. Yeah, you see what I'm saying. It's like I do, I do still feel like, I think the issue here is that no one is framing this conversation through this lens.

They're not, you hear a mandate. It's almost like a, it's like a euphemism. You're not talking about what actually is happening, what it actually means, right? And so, I think it's, you know, I linked to a couple things.

I linked to supermarkets in Frankfurt, Germany that can now refuse service to unvaccinated people. I linked to this crazy threat about what's going on in Lithuania, what society looks like.

And even in New York City that they were, you know, imposing vaccine mandates to go participate this year in the New Year's Eve ball drop and outside, like, we're getting to the, for children as young as five years old, we're getting to the point where it's just like a joke, you know, it doesn't make any sense.

Everyone knows by now after a year and a half, you know, of COVID that there's been no evidence anywhere of outdoor transmission. And I linked to a couple articles and very mainstream publications like The Atlantic, where there's been no evidence of outdoor transmission anywhere, yet you're doing a Vax mandate

for people as in as five for an outdoor event. It's really getting to the point of like, of just, it's almost funny, you know, if it wasn't, if it wasn't real. - Yeah, it's, yeah. It's timely our conversation because, you know, like you say, it's like, it's got to that level.

I'm quite open on the show, so I can say things like this. Like, I've had serious mental health issues in the past, like really, really not well. It's got to the point where I don't trust the NHS or going to speak to anyone and having anything on record, especially with all the stuff that's going on

because I think, well, I'll probably just be locked up. But I do have a few friends who are psychologists and, you know, I've been, I've been having to sit down and try and work through some of my issues at the moment because I've been fine for years because I've had this hope because of Bitcoin.

What has happened, especially in the last sort of, I don't know, probably four months, it's really started to hit me hard, is the crazy illogical bullshit and the constant ramping up and the fact that nothing makes sense.

And the feeling alone, I mean, it's different on Bitcoin, Twitter and having conversations with people like you, but in real world around people that are from my normal life around me, it makes you start to feel crazy and it makes me start to feel angry at people that I love, which is a horrible feeling because it's like this frustration

of thinking, well, it's either that I am completely mental or the whole world has gone mad and everyone around me's gone mad and no one will fucking listen. It's almost like watching a car crash in slow motion.

And you're saying to everyone, fucking get out or at least put your seat belts on 'cause we're gonna hit this wall, please, please, please. But it's not that you're doing it over 30 seconds, you're doing it over two years.

And it's, I don't know about you, but it's really draining and I'm speaking to a lot of other people who I'm close to, especially in Bitcoin world, who are feeling the same thing. And it's gotta stop, this thing about the way that you're framing it, I think is really good.

I think it's really important. I do think that we have to be more conscious of the way that we enter these conversations and having something like you've written here to send to people is really important.

But yeah, it's gotta stop. It cannot continue. - It's getting very tedious for me as well. I think I went through a phase, as I mentioned, where I was very stressed in the beginning of everything and then it was much better once I realized, we're not all gonna die.

People are not actually dropping dead in the streets. Thank you, China, for those fake videos, right? But we're not all gonna die. And then in the last few months, I think, like I mentioned before, ignorance is bliss, right?

I think when you, if you actually, if you read and listen to and see everything that's going on, if you look at the videos, for example, out of Australia, and you look at these quarantine camps, and then if you also think about what's happening in your own city, whatever policies or wherever you live, what kind of things they're enacting,

if you think about the stuff with Moderna, for example, about how you're still giving it to kids, even though countries are actually banning it, like it's very, very difficult to stay calm and to not internalize all that stress.

So I've, the last couple of months, especially the last, even just the last few weeks, so when you say this is very timely, it's like, yeah, I'm feeling it too, it's like it's weighing on me because I can't stop myself from reading everything.

Like I can't stop myself from just soaking in all the information, and it's really stupid when I do it before bed. That messes with me, so I'm trying to be better about like, don't read any of this stuff at night.

Read it in the morning, let me get all fired up, you know, when I'm going to start my day, not when my head is racing in the middle of the night, when I can't sleep 'cause I'm thinking about this stuff, but I think there's actually, I'm trying to remember, I think I retweeted something in the last couple of months,

but this is actually like a strategy to like, I think like a, when you're constantly, yeah, it's not even that, it's when you're constantly pummeling the public with policies and mandates and whatever rules that are not founded in logic.

Once everyone starts complying with them, it's really easy to introduce new rules that are also not founded in logic. It's like a psychological attack, it feels like. You know, even as, we've talked about a lot of the discrepancies already about like the national immunity stuff, for example, but you roll out these policies

that just don't make any sense, and then you force people to comply with them, and the policies get worse over time. It's like at some point, people like us who care and who are in the know and who see what's happening, we just get so damn fatigued by the whole thing, and it's like, I haven't figured it out yet

how to properly kind of remain stoic about everything, while also remaining informed about everything. It's like extremely challenging, and glad you said that, I mean, I'm not glad you're going through it, but I'm glad you said that you are and that you've mentioned other people are 'cause definitely something that's been affecting me,

specifically in the last few weeks. It's hard, and there are some things you can, you know, we all get to the point with Bitcoin where we say, right, that's it, I'm not speaking to normies about it anymore, I'm bored of it, I'm not gonna listen, I'm not gonna talk to them anymore.

This is something completely different, because if you do just shut up and not say anything and comply, that is very, very bad. Even if it's the smallest thing, you should be doing something, or I feel it's my duty, like every day, I have to deal with going into shops or anywhere I go and I get asked by every security guard

and everywhere, put your mask on, please, and I've got to go through, no, I'm not wearing a mask. And I know it's like small, but I have to continually have confrontation. People will say, well, why don't you just wear the mask?

For fuck's sake, can you just, look, can you just let it slide, please? Just not let it ruin your day, and I'm like, no, I can't, because there might be one other person who's behind me, and maybe they're a bit shy, or they're too scared to say something, and they're feeling that no, this is wrong, and maybe by seeing me stand up,

then maybe it will help them, and they'll think, do you know what, I'm gonna stand up as well, and the less people there are walking around with these fucking masks on, maybe, it makes it a bit more normal.

And so, yeah, it's probably doing close to nothing, and yeah, it makes my life harder every day. But I think, and it reminds me of it every day, 'cause I've got to have these arguments every day, but I think the second that you give up, the second that you just go, I'll just put my mask on, I'll comply,

I don't agree with it, I know it's wrong, you know, two plus two equals five, you know, and just go along with the bullshit, you die inside, and I'm not prepared to do that. - What I've noticed, Boston is pretty strict about everything, especially the indoor masking, in places like a grocery store, for example.

However, what I've noticed, and what's been more effective for me, because I wish I could be completely like you, I wish I could just say the security guard at the grocery store, just throw me out, I don't care, right?

But what I've noticed a lot of people doing is that they just have the mask down under their nose. And I think that's also a fun little way, if you're not in a situation where you feel comfortable, just like walking into the store brazenly like that, and potentially getting thrown out or whatever,

I notice that the gym now, three quarters of the people, just have it pulled down under their nose, or even further, where it's like on their chin. And that's only started happening in the last month, because some people had it down under their nose, and then everyone saw, and now everyone does, even the people who work there.

And that just gives me so much joy. It's like the same people going to that same gym every day, you kind of observe each other, and then all of a sudden, within a few weeks, no one even has it over their nose anymore, right?

- Exactly. - And yeah, I think that's fun. It's those little things I think are important. Yeah, I think, I wanna write a post about the mask stuff, but I'm not, I wanna write a post like this, but about the mask stuff, or it's like a very, like hard to argue with kind of posts, right, where everything is extremely fact-based,

but I haven't, the next post I'm actually writing is, I'm gonna, I'm writing it specifically for the city of Boston, because our new mayor is considering implementing a Vax mandate for restaurants, and other stuff, and that really scares me because, yeah, so I'm writing a post that's gonna be titled

something like vaccine mandates are racist, 'cause I think it's time to use the woke arguments against everyone. I think it's like-- - 'Cause we're minorities. - No, that's not why actually.

So let me tell you the Vax data for Boston roughly, and I'm not gonna get it exactly right. It's about 70% of people in Massachusetts are fully vaccinated, which means 30% are not. It's like 90% of Asians are fully vaccinated.

I think it's 72% of whites, and then you're down to the low 60s for a black and Hispanic. So think about that. If you implement a Vax mandate in a city like Boston, and those numbers from the state roughly carry through to the city, they're slightly different.

I have them, I'm gonna, I'll put them into the post that I write. If you implement that, then you're basically saying, oh, are you a minority? Well, you're not allowed to, 40% of minorities, oh, not allowed to go to work anymore.

Oh, you're not allowed to go out to eat. Oh, you're working in a restaurant? Sorry, you lost your job. So I wanna put it in the same argument that these people recognize-- - That's small.

- Right? - That's very small. So I'm not thinking about that. Just to tie this in as well to, I'm just gonna skip around in my post. Do you know the numbers? But we had some friends over for dinner a week or two ago, and I expressed how many people were unvaccinated in the US, and this person was shocked.

Do you know what in the US, what percent are unvaccinated, or I should say, not fully vaccinated? - You're never fully vaccinated, though, are you? - Well, that's my last section. That's my last section is you are no longer fully vaccinated.

- Let me guess. Let me guess. I don't know the answer. My guess is most of the red states are not, and most of the blue are, and so you've got, I don't know, maybe 60% are and 40 not? - It's actually spot on, it's 40% that are, yep, 40%.

- Literally, actually 40. - Yeah, it's actually slightly more. It's like 40, it's like 40 points something. - I don't say it's exactly 40, exactly 40. That's the biggest win I've ever had.

- I think it's about 10% of those are, I think it's like 10% of those are, there's another 10% that have partially vaccinated, like one shot or something. But yeah, so most people that I've talked to, where I've cited this number, are just completely shocked.

They don't think it's that high because none of the data they're seeing, nothing they're being told on the media, nothing is indicating that 40% of the entire country is on vaccinated. So if you are advocating, let's be super clear, if you are advocating for a vaccine mandate in the United States, or your local state or city,

depending on the breakdown, but let's just say the country as a whole. And let's say Biden's administration specifically, that they were trying to force through this mandate on any company that has over 100 employees, because they found some loophole where they thought they could do it and it's currently being held up in the court system.

You're advocating for 40% of people to get fired and lose their jobs and not be allowed or able to, let's say, support their families. Let's just say it's at the base level, you're just fired from your job.

Let's say you can still go to the grocery store or whatever, but you're talking about literally firing 40% of the United States workforce. If even with that bit of information alone, I think a lot of people would back down from the mandate idea, because you're basically saying, like the secondary effect of that,

forget the effects on individuals, which is terrible in terms of mental health and everything else, right? But you're basically advocating to send your country, depending on, I mean, not if you're a Gibraltar or whatever, where you have, like everyone vaccinated.

But if you're in a country like the US, you're advocating for an economic depression, basically, with this policy. That's what will happen. If you terminate 40% of the workforce, you're going to cause an economic depression without any doubt.

- Do you think there is a chance that this is a controlled demolition of the economy and this was just something that they needed to push, because it does feel it's timely? - It certainly feels like, I don't know.

- And it's so retarded, the stuff that you're saying, like... - I wanna say yes, but also I'm less of a conspiracy theorist and more of a follow the incentives kind of person. And so I think the system is just so broken from an incentive perspective that you look at someone like Fauci, and if you read this book,

you will clearly see all the incentives, it's crazy. Someone like Fauci is highly incentivized to pump out, to push the vaccines, the relationship between our regulators and the pharmaceutical companies are basically revolving doors.

The US actually holds like the Moderna. We hold a lot of the patents for the Moderna vaccine, so it's actually, it's almost like a joint project with the US and with Moderna. Other companies, like let's say Google, for example, Google owns or invests in a bunch of vaccine makers

like next-gen vaccine companies. They have extremely lucrative almost billion dollar contracts with some of the biggest pharma companies in the US. So I don't know about, I know it's like, I wanna say like yes to the control demolition question.

Well, I don't know, I don't know exactly. I'm a big believer in the whole theory though of kind of like everyone is vying to be the next global monetary standard, you know? So that's my thought.

It's that you have a bunch of different groups competing to be the next standard. I don't know if this isn't exactly a intentionally controlled demolition, but for whatever reason, the incentives have stacked up in a way where it's certainly causing a controlled demolition.

- Yeah, that's fair. - I don't know exactly if it's a small group of people planning it or if it's just a bunch of incentives stacking up where everyone has an incentive to look out for themselves and their own interests, right?

And if you kind of carry that out, then you can see why all the politicians are implementing these mandates because a majority of the population supports these mandates. You can see why Google's YouTube is censoring all this stuff is because they own or they have a lot of business with the farmer companies, you know?

A lot of like, you know, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars and money at stake here. And so you kind of start to game out the incentives. You start to see how each party that's kind of participating in this is very much incentivized to keep it going.

And so, and you know what, I've had a hard time thinking about this today. I was thinking about this today. It's like, how do I reconcile my capitalism, libertarian freedom views with that?

Where I think one of the reasons we're in this mess is because all these corporations, these large corporations are so incentivized to protect each other and profit off each other that they're pushing things like a fourth booster, all right?

(laughs) Because everyone benefits from the fourth booster. The farmer companies benefit from the fourth booster. The regulators benefit from because they have, you know, more power and sometimes there's even like a small, like it's, they talk about it in the Fauci book about how there's actually some economic benefit

for a few of the people. Fauci's actually the highest paid government employee, higher paid than the president, believe it or not. - I do believe it. - Which was a mind blowing fact that, yeah.

And then like, you know, the internet companies benefit because they get, you know, they get the deals with the farmer companies, right? Where they get all that money. And so you kind of start to think about the game through here.

And regardless of what's happening, it's like the incentives are all pointing us to a specific direction. How do you possibly, you know, justify that with my whole, you know, the very capitalistic approach, right?

Because you could actually, I understand why all like the kids are like, yeah, yay, communism, right? Because they see that this fiercely capitalistic system is actually causing a lot of these issues.

But I'm a big believer that it's more of a problem with the money itself and a more of a believer and they'll fix the money, fix the world kind of premise. - I agree, but I'd also say that it's not true capitalism.

- Yeah, that's what I mean. Right, that's what I mean. Yeah. - And yes, it's a big movement. I see it very much here as well. Many of the younger generation are going towards socialism, Marxism, they're angry and they fucking should be.

They really should be like life's hard for them. And people say, oh, yeah, they're soy, they're this or that. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's like seven, eight times harder for them to buy properties than it was for their parents.

They don't have the same freedoms. Sometimes, you know, in some ways they have more freedoms, but in other ways they don't, to actually save money is practically impossible. The dreams that they were told and sold as children are almost certainly not going to come true.

And they're angry. And what's happening is they're not understanding where to direct that anger and what their told capitalism is, is what we have today. And that is not capitalism. That is socialism for corporations.

Exactly. And it's theft from everybody else. And so, I don't think that that's something that we should look at and be concerned about because it is not capitalism in the way that we envisage it, I think.

Definitely. And if you look at how, you know, the most shocking thing to me actually about, maybe not the most shocking, but something I'm shocked by with the vaccine rollout is that these companies, these couple, you know, or handful of pharma companies are making billions of dollars.

Who negotiated this with them? Like, I feel like, and like, if this was in like the 40s or something, that these companies would have been like nationalized if it was truly a state of public emergency.

'Cause we do live in this kind of quasi socialist system. And, or they would say, look, you know, this is a public health disaster. This is a worldwide pandemic. You need to sell these drugs at cost.

Or we're gonna be able to fix them out. How the hell did we get in a situation where these companies are? I mean, we know how we got in the situation, but it's just mind boggling to me how we're paying full price for all these drugs and for the boosters.

And there's such a profit motive here. It's complete insanity that our governments didn't just say, you're giving us this stuff, you know, at cost. Or at this fixed, you know, fixed markup.

You know, if this fixed 20%, you know, mark up or whatever. It's insane. - And there's another comeback. - It just shows. Right, and it just shows how, like you were just saying, it's socialism for the, for the, the biggest corporations, right?

Where, you know, it's totally fine. It's our taxpayer money and our savings being diluted via money printing that's being repackaged and given to these companies at whatever terms they want.

Another thing I have in the post here is that these companies, these pharma companies have full immunity, legal immunity. So not only did they get exactly all the money they wanted per dose, which will only continue to grow with each booster, but they have full legal immunity.

It's fucking insane, you know, that you can't, you can't go sue them. The whole thing, I mean, that, that plus just the money aspect of it is, is really crazy and yeah, it shows just like you're saying that we're not living in an actual capitalistic society right now.

- Yeah, it is so far from it. And what's, what's particularly funny to me, when I can bring myself to laugh about it at least, is the people that push hardest for the mandates and are the first to tell you how selfish you are and stupid you are and how you should trust the science are the same people that hate capitalism

and hate free markets and hate these sort of ideas. And they hate, yeah, and they hate these corporations. They think that they're evil, but somehow there's this disconnect from the karma.

- Yes, I don't understand it at all. Yeah, I have no idea. - It's remarkable. - I mean, I can't stand any pharma. Personally, I stay away from all medications. I'm the one in your, in your Twitter mentioned saying, do the Wim Hof method, the weekend.

That's a whole separate podcast. Have you? Oh man. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been doing it. - That's a whole separate podcast though, I feel like, but. - Yeah, it is, it is. - That's, yeah, I mean, I'm all about that stuff.

You know how they've been saying take certain, I've been reading, take certain herbs and whatnot. I mean, obviously like vitamin D and stuff, they say is really great. But other things like corsetin is another one.

I'm not sure exactly how to pronounce it. There's been a few of them that have become corsetin. - Corsetin, corsetin, yeah. You know what's funny? I've been taking that for years. - Oh really?

- Yeah, I've been on these, I've had a bunch of, I've had a whole drawer of herbs and stuff that I've been taking for years. So it's, it's hilarious to me. I'm like, oh, I already have that.

I already take that once a day. This is great. (both laughing) But let me, let me, I know I gotta go in about 10 minutes. Let's- - Sure. - Let's touch on one last thing. Because I think we successfully, when we highlight a bunch of stuff in the post, we really hit the key points, right?

To really dismantle the common arguments for vaccine mandates. And try to arm people with some arguments that are pretty ironclad if you just can sit someone down and you know, very, they're not like conspiracy theory arguments, right?

They're just very fact-based and difficult to argue with. My favorite one though, is that the, and this is, this one is not received well by people. (both laughing) That I personally think the vaccines, and this is in the post, that the vaccines may be actually causing the variants.

This is the crazy one. - It's not that crazy. Just before- - It's not that crazy. - I just quickly dive in with, without doxing them, a friend of mine who is, I won't go into too much, but very highly qualified to understand this stuff.

Right at the beginning, said to me, I am deeply concerned that once we start having these vaccinations, we are gonna cause variants, and they're gonna be much worse. And she was really concerned.

And you, like, I won't dox. You do not get higher qualified than this lady. You really do not. She subsequently lost her job for her views on this, and had to move, but yeah, I kind of, I'd been hearing about this from day one.

So when I read in your post, I was like, yep, there we are. So, all right, let's dive into it. So we, all right, let's just start with a, firstly, this is a nice argument to present, after you've presented a lot of the first stuff.

That's why it's number 11 in my list here. Maybe it should be at the bottom. But we already know that, we already know that antibiotics specifically, can become resistant over time. Right, it's one of the, you know, they say don't use, you know, it's just one of the big medical issues right now.

I mean, you can go read normal articles about it. It's extremely mainstream, right? That antibiotics, or that I should say that bacteria becomes resistant to antibiotics over time. It's that you need to make new antibiotics, and then it becomes resistant.

So that, so we know that in that field. So that is like not controversial at all. What about in the field of vaccines? And so I came across this really interesting stuff about Maric syndrome, M-A-R-E-K, which is a disease that occurs in chickens.

It's pretty well studied. So I linked to an article in National Geographic, I think you would argue, that's a pretty mainstream publication. From before COVID, okay. So from 2015. And the article is called, leaky vaccines enhance spread of deadlier chicken viruses.

So what's a leaky vaccine? So the authors in this paper, and it's summarized in the National Geographic article, they differentiate between, quote, perfect vaccines, and quote, imperfect, or leaky vaccines.

A leaky vaccine, or an imperfect vaccine, is a vaccine that does not fully prevent the spread of the virus. A perfect vaccine is a vaccine that completely prevents the spread of the virus.

So quoting from the article in National Geographic, they said, you know, vaccines like those against mumps, measles, smallpox are perfect from the definition. Not perfect, like, oh, these are awesome vaccines, but perfect as in, they both protect you against getting the disease, and they stop you from transmitting it to anyone.

- Everything you want from a vaccine. - Exactly, and that's what a vaccine was before they changed the definition. That's also, by the way, in the post. But so a leaky vaccine is when it protects you from developing the disease, but it doesn't stop you from spreading the disease.

Sounds a lot like our current COVID vaccines, right? We know they offer some protection, they do, I mean, they definitely do, in some cases, but they do not stop you from spreading it. So what does that mean?

I'm gonna just read a quote from this National Geographic article, which is basically quoting off of their paper. Inadvertently, this made it easier for the most virulent strains to survive.

Such strains would normally kill their hosts so quickly that they'd die out, but in an immunized flock, they can persist because their lethal nature has been neutered. That's not a problem for vaccinated individuals, but unvaccinated birds are now in serious trouble.

So it talks about kind of what we're saying, where what they saw, they have to basically develop a new vaccine for this Maric's disease every number of years, because they give it to all the chickens, and then a certain number of years later, the chickens all become, I should say that there's a variant, right,

that ends up infecting all the chickens because the vaccines stopped this specific old variant, but then whatever new variant or variants that slipped through that were not stopped by the vaccines were able to run through the entire chicken population with no resistance.

And therefore, the theory that the authors of this paper have from six years ago is that leaky vaccines, as they're called, actually lead to more rapid variants, mutations of the original virus.

And actually one of the authors of this paper is very scared, he was talking about the Ebola vaccines that were in development. He said some of the monkey trials suggest that they may be perfect, but we need to be very confident that they don't leak if they do, and some vaccinated individuals are capable

of passing on Ebola, that might lead to the evolution of very dangerous pathogens. So how can we go from talking about this in 2015, through the lens of Maric's disease and chickens to actually papers being published, explaining how we have to be really careful when developing vaccines that are not leaky vaccines

so that we don't cause new variants to appear? How do we go from this to six years later, we have these ultra leaky COVID vaccines, and that really scares the shit out of me. Because we're basically giving everyone, we're trying to mandate on the entire world population a leaky vaccine.

- Wouldn't it be too tin full hat of me to say population control? - I mean, look, you know, I don't get, I intentionally don't get conspiracy theory. What I would argue here is I would actually just hide back to what I said before about the incentives.

What happens if you release a leaky vaccine and there's new variants all the time, every few months? Well, that needs to get to make more boosters. So I would say that regardless of the conspiracy theory angle here, I think that it's a leaky vaccine is potentially one of the best inventions that a pharma company could ever create.

'Cause if this holds up the stuff that I quoted, right, in my post, then you're basically guaranteeing that there's going to be an infinite market for your boosters. You just get to reformulate the booster with each new serious variant.

And then you have new variants and you have an unending global pandemic. And so I think whether it's a conspiracy or whether it's just a combination of incentives, some malice and incompetence thrown in from our regulators, I think that's the big worry here.

And that should be a wake-up call to anyone who is even thinking about vaccines where it's like, whoa, let's reframe the narrative, read this, read this article, National Geographic, think about the COVID vaccines and tell me what you think.

If you can actually get someone to sit down and read a National Geographic article and spend two minutes thinking about how it relates to our COVID vaccines, it's some really scary shit. - That it is.

Well, I think that's probably a good place to tie this up. I could sit and talk to you about this all day. And I'm sure when you write your next article, we'll have another discussion, but-- - Vaccine mandates are racist article, that'll be a fun one.

- I'm gonna send it to some papers in Boston. I really wanna try to get it published in like an actual local publication, you know? Because I think it's a really important wake-up call. I genuinely do think that most people, especially the local politicians, are trying to do what's right for them.

Oftentimes that means what's right for their poll numbers. But I also think that if you told them, look, this policy is gonna cause massive job loss amongst minorities. I think most of them would not do it.

And so I think it's really important to frame these kinds of discussions in that way. - Absolutely, you can break the Nuremberg code, but you cannot be viewed as racist. So I think it's a really clever way of getting people to think about it.

And yeah, I really look forward to reading that. But yeah, like I said at the beginning, I really do seriously appreciate the fact that you've taken the time to write this. I can only imagine the amount of hours and time that's gone into it and the stress, because as you write this and think about this,

you have to be constantly thinking through the arguments and having these sort of discussions in your head. And it can be very, very draining, as we've said before. So yeah, I really respect that you've done it.

And I urge anyone who's listening to this to go and have a proper read through it, because we've gone through some of it, but it's very in-depth. And yeah, always a pleasure to speak to you, mate.

It really is. - Yeah, this was great. Thank you, thank you and enjoy the evening. - Yeah, I'm half a bottle of whiskey deep now. - That's one way to cope with things. (laughs) - I'm gonna take the dog for a walk and then come back and switch off and do some Bitcoin things, get away from the COVID stuff.

But yeah, thanks again, mate, and we'll catch up soon. - Sounds good, thanks. - Cheers.