BIT BUY BIT PODCAST EP01 K.Brown Bitcoin

Welcome to Bit by Bit's first episode. My name's Max and I'll be your host. Joining us today is a very special guest, but before I introduce them, I think we should get to know each other a little better.

Firstly, I'd like to let you know my email will be open for any questions and I will help in any way I can. Secondly, I'd like you to know why I've started Bit by Bit and why I think the topics we'll be discussing in today's episode are so important. The best way I could think of,

to explain this, was to write a blog post. I then decided I'd narrate it back. After I listened to it, I was sick in my own mouth. It honestly, it really is one of the worst bits of reading you will ever hear. If you can't be bothered to read and you'd like me to email you the audio clip,

listen at your own risk, and I'm happy to do it. For everyone else, read money, time, trust on my website, bit-by-bit.com, and join us in eight minutes for episode one. Joining us now to discuss

the future and time is a good friend of mine, and I'll guess today, Kerim. Introduce yourself. I'm Kerim Brown. I am a physics teacher in secondary education in the UK. I have a genuine interest in things like quantum field theory, special and general relativity, the everlasting

quest for quantum gravity, which is the thing that drives it. And yeah, just really, you've convinced me to hear that Bitcoin is something that I should be interested in as well. I'm really interested to be here today and have a chat with you. Well, thanks for coming in today because

what always messes with my head is when I sit down with you, and basically what messes with everyone, I sit down with you just in general, because we always end up talking about these things that my little monkey brain just can't keep up. I mean, that's the thing that physics

does. We make measurements, we look at relationships, and it tells us stuff that's different to what we see. But that's exactly what you did in terms of money. You know, I thought I understood money, I literally didn't. The idea of what money was, what a note actually meant in my hand. I never

really understood it before. I don't think anyone does. No, but I'm understanding money is kind of straightforward when you recognize what it was, what you said, the gold standard. What it was is that it's a bill for a certain amount of gold. It's a receipt for gold. I remember a guy saying

this to me years back, you know, money's just a receipt for gold, but it's so messed up that there's more money than there is gold. And I didn't really understand why we're saying money is a receipt of gold. But now I get the whole thing. And I'm like, Oh my God, that's what we've done.

We've taken something that had value that meant something was backed by gold was literally like, you know, it was scarce. Yeah. And now we're just, we're just making it, it's nothing. It's just a piece of paper with a number printed on it. Whereas before, it actually meant something because a

nation had to have those gold reserves to back that money. But now they don't. They haven't since 1970s. And I think that's what we're seeing the effects. That's why it makes me question so strongly.

If trading our time, is that a smart move? It doesn't seem to be. It seems like, I think you hit the nail on the head, which is that time is scarce. You know, we, we, we, we all have a finite period, like time in physics is a difficult concept. I think we can all agree it exists. There are,

there are certain things about time which are crazy and weird, but I can't imagine, I try to imagine it in advance of this, try to think of a society where time didn't exist or wasn't the same. The only thing I can come up with is this idea that at some point someone's gonna invent a

time machine. You said to me loads of times before you can go forward in time. If you're going fast enough, because it warps space time or something like that. Yeah. So, but you can't ever go back.

Yeah. And the universe is like one big explosion and it just goes forever forward. The universe is definitely one direction or like the things that we can all agree with time is that it does kind of exist. It does pass. There is a general arrow of time. You know, we, we have a

common history in that everyone can trace back the big bang of 14 billion years. We can all agree that the universe would, you know, wherever you are in the universe, you should be able to measure the cosmic microwave background radiation and you should be able to measure the expansion of the

universe and work out the same age everywhere and get the same kind of background radiation that links to that date and time. And that's because of speed and light, I think you said to me.

Yeah. There's a lot of things, a recession or speeds of galaxies. But we have a common history. That's what I'm saying. Like, if we imagine that there are civilizations out in the galaxies, people are sat there doing similar things to us right now or intelligent beings are doing that.

They should, one of the basic tenants that we take in physics is that the laws of physics are the same everywhere in the universe. It's a weird that. That's an assumption and it has to be, we can't work without that assumption. Yeah. All theories are all based off that.

Yeah. No matter what, if you're on a spaceship traveling at 1000 miles an hour, a torch should turn on and, you know, a battery should shine and light should come out of the lamp. Those kind of rules that apply to us should apply everywhere in the whole universe. And that's

that's a general, I mean, that's a very, very logical assumption. Okay. And based on that, we can all agree that we have a common history and that things progress away from that common history. So we all have, we have a past. Everyone has a past and we got skeletons in the closet.

But what time actually is is very different to each person. There are certain things like here on Earth, we can say, I love this little fact that I learned recently, which is that every living creature on Earth has approximately a billion heartbeats, regardless of size or length of life.

Warm blooded, or is that insect? I think it was, it was regardless of the age of the creature, you know, a smaller creature tends to live a shorter life, but their heartbeats are faster, whereas bigger, larger creatures like whales and elephants talking about creatures, we've got a

lovely little noodle here, it's just having just jumping up the cuddles, we can hear your feet on the thing. If you just ignore him, he'll go sit on the towel. So fun fact is that yeah, every living creature has approximately one billion heartbeats, because it's something to do with

the way the systems work, that they scale. So a small creature will tend to have a faster heartbeat, shorter lifespan, but it will do one billion heartbeats. Bigger creature like a blue whale or elephant will have a slower heartbeat, but it will live a lot longer. And you know, people go, well, so I don't

want to exercise, no, it doesn't work like that, because your resting heart rate goes down, and it actually gives you more heartbeats overall. That's interesting, that's not an excuse, not to exercise.

So it's, it's not just humans, it's all, all living creatures on this planet. It's only, why is it only humans, I know we're more involved in certain ways and we trade and this kind of thing, but of all the living beings, it's only humans have created this idea of money,

really, like other, other animals trade things. You can teach, you can teach money to like dolphins and monkeys and primates can exchange. And not only that, when they, when they train them to exchange tokens for, for goods, they recognize a better deal. So if they're trading tokens for grapes,

and someone's giving them more grapes for their tokens, they'll go, well, they'll get a better value for money here. But not only that, if they, if they don't like false advertising. So if you say, I'm going to give you three grapes and give you two, they don't like you.

But if you offer them one grape and they, and then give them two, they'll love it, because they're getting extra, they're getting more than they bargained for. And even if they're paying the same token for the same two grapes, they'll always give it to the person you've

added the grape, and the person who takes the grape away. I'm no different, because I love a deal. I think it was done as an audio book. It's called loss. And it's about how we, how our brains are hardwired to avoid losing things. And loss is something that really drives us. I remember listening to

it and getting really good at playing poker. Oh, really? Yeah. Because I didn't realize that what I was doing in my game was loss aversion. I was scared of losing. And I was behaving in a way to protect assets that's actually detrimental to your game. I guess that's the same in most

aspects of life. You know, a lot of people who are scared to try starting this podcast. I'm really dyslexic. It takes me a long time to write. It's beautiful writing them. I think it's more of a book to me. Like, I'm thinking it's like, this is actually, this is a book. This is what you write.

You're writing is a book there. Really? Just a really short one. Well, I mean, it's just an introductory chapter in a long book. Yeah. I mean, that took me such a long time. I think we all fear things. And then we don't go for them because we're so scared of them. But

actually, most of the time, if something fails, like if I make this podcast, no one bothers listening to it, which is, you know, possible, then it doesn't really matter because you have experiences, you've learned something from doing it. I think that our fear of loss, a lot of the time it does

hold us back. I mean, there's a lot of factors that, you know, I'm not a biologist or psychologist, but I do find these things fascinating that the idea of loss aversion, which drives us the wrong way, but also confirmation bias. Yeah. That's a huge one that we get an idea into our heads,

and then we seek out evidence to prove our idea. And we actually ignore stuff that's contrary, a totally against the scientific method, which is that you will try and prove yourself wrong.

Do you know what I mean? You'll do the opposite in science. You'll be like, okay, I've got this idea. So if it's right, this won't happen. So I'll look for that thing. Yeah, I'd like to think that that's what I've done for the last couple of years with the subject we're talking about. Always say,

like, how are we wrong? Where are we wrong? What is that? What's that thought experiment? Then if Bitcoin, I mean, how could you test, truly test the, because I, I forgot to tell you this, I saw something really impressive the other day. A shop in town center, I had a in the window, we accept

Bitcoin here. Oh, really? This is the first time I've seen a retail outlet that's saying we'll take payments by Bitcoin. That's cool. Yeah. There's still not a lot of people use it. No, because it's still speculative. These things are happening and people are starting to slow. And there's a few,

there's a few rumblings from like a few people. But I've got to a point now where it's been least six months, maybe a year since anyone has come up with an argument, a legit, people have come up with arguments, but a legitimate theory as to why this won't work. It's been a long time.

That's why I want to get guests on here, because if I'm wrong, first of all, I'm wasting loads and loads of time. And if I'm right, people need to... Well, let's put it this way. Have you made money out of Bitcoin? It does. It does fine. Yeah. I mean, I've very played it down. It does fine,

because I mean, I know I've seen... I tend to use it as a cash. I don't use it as a store of value. So for me, it's just in my pocket, and then I use it in my wallet, and I use it. I've seen the value of my dust, double, and then triple in the last year or two, even just this year. Actually,

genuinely don't really watch the price too much anymore, because it's more than that to me now. Trying to think. I think I've seen it. I think I've seen it. I miss must be going back a while, but I've seen it at 2000, or slightly under three... Yeah, so probably that's about right.

Slightly under 3,000 pounds, a coin. And now it's seven. It's not a bit, but it was at 12. Yeah. I'd like to say it. I don't really watch it, because it's such a long term. It's so early.

Anyone who's buying it and going, "Oh, I want to make double my money," or something. It's madness, because the way this thing moves is that if you don't hold it for 10 days of a year, you can miss the majority of the gains, because it goes parabolic.

The gains are quick. So you might double your money, pull it out, and then you miss a 50x. And you'll be like, "Oh, what have I done?" I don't know. If you are looking at it as a store of value, for me, I'd do the kind of thing that would do if I was in Vegas, which would be,

if I start making money, the initial investment, I'd take the initial investment out and leave the profit into to build profit, which has got potential. There's nothing wrong with that system, because you've leveraged some money for a short period of time, and then it's branched off.

What you do with it then? At the end of the day, what you're saying is it better to hold that in your pocket effectively. You hold that in pounds over time. It does better. But I think the thing that really excites me is just the change that we can see with this. And I think that's where

it's really, really overlooked. And it takes a lot of time to get to a point where you start thinking about, well, what could this change in the same way the internet has changed our lives, barely imagine what it's like without now. And it's done it in 30 years. We're 10 years in.

Oh, it's not even that. Like, I remember using the internet properly for the first time when it was on the news, and it was referred to as the information super highway. Yeah, it's just, it wasn't that the micro software trying to do. That's an intranet.

So that's what, as far as I understand it. Yeah. So it's like curated content in the same way, all these alternatives with MSN and things like that. Yeah. And then it's not, it's not really the internet. I mean, if you say from what 18, early 90s? For me, I was, because I'm a bit older than

yourself. It would have been about 1998 when I first used an internet computer. No one else, no one really had it at home at that time. And maybe it was a bit early 97. But I remember using internet for the first time. And there was not a lot on there. No, it was just email, really.

Well, Jolly Rogers cookbook was there. I'd heard about that. The anarchist cookbook. There were already geek websites. I remember Googling Star Trek or Googling. I remember somehow searching, probably asking Jeeves. Jeeves got knees though. But by the time I was at Union

in 1999, there was a proliferation of websites, but there's a lot of homemade, very basic stuff. You know, you had your companies that had their first dot com type websites, but I can't remember a lot of GOCs. You know, GOCs, that must have been before. I remember first cycling down to

the news agent and getting a copy of AOL, a disc. And I think you've got like, you've got a certain amount of minutes included free with the CD. CD and then you got that. Yeah, it must have been it must have been quite quick, because I remember using it first time at school,

not long after that, my parents having that modem in the hallway, you know, you had a little volume control that you could always turn up the volume control when I tell them I walk past it, just so that every time Mum tried to connect to the internet and do an email, you know, two backers in the

hallway. Yeah, it was quick. It was quick by 2000 from 95 to 2000. It was like, bang, it's here, it's everywhere. With that Paul Krugman quote, if you just Google anyone who's listening or, you know, dug.go or whichever search engine, and just look at all the quotes from some of the brightest minds

and people who really know what they're talking about, talking about the internet. No one saw this coming. Everyone is just playing it down. They're saying, Oh, it's not going to be more important than the fax machine. It's not going to make any difference to the economy. You had

companies like Blockbuster laughing at the idea of something like Netflix and literally a couple of years later, bang, they're gone. Facebook came out of nowhere. Amazon. You look at pictures of Jeff Bezos in year 2000 in a shitty little office with Amazon written behind him on a bit of looks

like an old shirt. And now he's $150 billion. Was it 15 or $150 billion? That's an insane amount of money. That's crazy, crazy, crazy money. It's crazy amount. And that's one company that's using the internet to sit on top of. It's basically an application. Pretty much. Really. It's a supermarket.

Pretty much. It's just a supermarket online. You know, I mean, it's not a new game. It's just the way in which they do it is different. The clever thing is using the pre-existing networks of the post combining that with something that didn't exist. Like the online browsing platform

to go, Oh, I don't want that. But I mean, we're all in there. Like the, you know, things that you forget to get in the shops or there's odd random things. You're like, Do you know what? I'm just ordering online. Just ordering online. It's easier. Yeah. I keep meaning to buy ladies leg waxing

strips. Because I cut them up into little strips and just do the little bit between my eyebrow. So yeah, but recently I ran out and get some, get someone to go Tesco's or when I go to Audi's or whatever. And keep forgetting them. So it's just like, it doesn't matter. I can

forget it. And on a Thursday at 11 o'clock at night, I can be like, God damn it, just order some wax strips and they'll come in the post. That's it. They're there. And no one's all right. Come on. This is my point. It's like, what's that 20 years ago?

God. Yeah. Only 20 years ago, these companies were nothing. It was pretty clunky. Really only anyone used it for email and a couple of it's been not really anything other than email. And look where we are now. And that's where I see Bitcoin to me is in the same situation now that we were

in early 90s. And I think it's gonna blow up. I don't think it's gonna blow up. I just think it's gonna seep in and just be part of... But the way our technology works is when once something becomes convenient, the problem with Bitcoin at the moment is it's inconvenient.

Yeah. The user interface is a poor point of the time and it's not ready for like full mainstream adoption. It's just not... It's very technical at the moment. I think especially with the ideas that you have to... Like at the moment, if you're buying in Bitcoin, you're buying in milli-bitcoins.

For normal price value purchases, you have to operate on a thousandth of a Bitcoin. Yeah. So we haven't gone over this maybe. Well, I mean, if you think a one coin is worth 7,000 at the moment, that means one pound, it would be 7,000. Or 1,000th is seven pounds.

So that's the unit you work at. A thousandth of a Bitcoin is just at the moment. So 7-quid. So a half a milli-bitcoin is about three pound 50. That's how I'm... In my head. How you work out. Now, I'm happy using millis and stuff because I'm a physics teacher.

It's kind of my bread and butter. I know it's 10 to the minus. It's three. We're like, "Sats" on this show. We like satoshis. I like satoshis. So each Bitcoin can go into a hundred million pieces. So eight decimal places.

At the moment, if you're trying to deal in satoshis, a hundred millionth of a Bitcoin that's only worth 7,000 pounds. Like it is... I can understand why you do the milli-bitcoin or that because it's just more simple. Well, I think one milli-bitcoin is a hundred thousand satoshis. And so, I mean, yeah, a satoshis worth like nothing.

Basically nothing now. Absolutely nothing. But if we go where I see this going and few other people see it going, if it really takes over, which it could do, if it becomes the infrastructure for the global financial system, like is the global financial system and all trade... Well, in order to get that to that level,

where one satoshis is a penny. No, if it was a pound per satoshi, it'd be 100 million pounds. If it's a penny, it'd be a million. My thought is that we could get between one and 10. That's where I see it. But anything in between is nice. I mean, the Bitcoin has never got to

100,000 yet. So it's maximum value, sort of 12. I think the heights was like just shy of 20,000 dollars. So, I mean, going to a million is a big because you'd have to scale it by a factor of five to get to 100,000 and then scale it by another factor of 100. So, you know, we call factor of 500

away. It's pretty big. But 5,000? If you go off the moves that we've had already had, and we've consistently had every year that it's been around, which has been 10 years now, just over, that's how it moves. We're talking about how big the whole of Bitcoin, like

the market cap of this thing is 200-ish billion. I know that obviously is a huge amount of money, but we're not talking about a currency or like an individual. We've just said Jeff Bezos is worth 150 billion. We're talking about if this becomes all money globally, and it is the infrastructure

that's laid down for all trade and all trust, because that's what this really is, is a platform for trust where you can have agreements made that have to be executed and it cuts out middlemen.

You have to be careful not to mix up blockchain and big. Yeah, blockchain is a real buzzword and, you know, people are... I mean, that's the thing I find exciting. The idea that you can have a ledger that doesn't just transfer money, then technology can be used for a legal transaction.

Transport coins, criminal proceedings and things like that. All of that stuff, I believe, will be built on Bitcoin. I mean, it doesn't need to be built on Bitcoin, it just... It lands above.

I mean, surely for some kind of like safety, you would want the systems built separately. Because you can have you can have separate systems built on top or on the side of it, so it's like... I mean, using the same technology, but you wouldn't want the Bitcoin network also

running legal conveyancing processes in house sales. The only reason you'd ever use a blockchain, this is what people, I think, either get wrong and get confused about or genuinely know and are just trying to scam people. The only reason you would use a blockchain is if you need absolute

security, you need to make sure that this can never be rewritten and that it's immutable and anyone can view it. There's not that many applications for that. The obvious one is money, because it's like you don't mess about when it comes to money and who owes people what, because that

is like waiting. The only thing that's come to is voting. That's got to be those things things you described, you know, visible by anyone. And I voted and you can't change my vote. Voting is not something I've looked in too heavily, because I think if this takes hold,

the entire voting system and everything is going to completely change anyway. So that sounds like a prime candidate for blockchain, though, isn't it? Yeah, I guess so. I think the problem is that what people are doing is they're saying, this blockchain thing, which is one of the technologies within Bitcoin,

let's make it so that we have a little bit more flexibility, because Bitcoin's really slow and dumb and just does one thing really, really well in that security. What they're doing is they're changing the formula. So their security is nowhere near as high in any

system, nowhere near to what Bitcoin is, even the big ones like Ethereum, these sort of things, they're using unproven technology, proof of stake algorithms that are unproven. They are much more likely to be centralized, really, really easy with some of these, and they basically are

just centralized systems. Why have the trade off of a really, really slow, really inefficient database when it's centralized anyway? There's no point. You might as well just use an Excel spreadsheet or Google pages or any of these things, because you can all go on Google pages,

you can all update, you can all see what's the truth and the rest of it, but it's controlled by Google. If you're talking about money and maybe something like voting, do it on Bitcoin. Everything else, tracking wine on the blockchain, tracking your milk and... Yeah, it's unnecessary. It's just,

yeah, it's unnecessary. You can have that stuff centralized. There's only very, very few things that need to be decentralized, and the only reason you would ever use a blockchain, in my opinion, would be for those things. And the first thing, before you can sort voting, before you can make

things fairer and freer and more open in society, you have to fix money. If you don't have control of the money and the people don't have control of the money, how can they really speak freely?

How can they vote freely? How can you stop such massive levels of corruption? You can't. Another blockchain building and then saying, "Oh, we're going to do voting on the blockchain." Are you? Because it's not going to be immutable. It's going to be centralized. And are you really

going to solve the problems? No, I mean, one day. One day, yeah. But like the idea that one day, everyone will, instead of having a Bitcoin, while everyone will have their voter address, you know, and they can interact with the network, send their vote. At their convenience, it's

completely safe, it's completely secure, it's unhackable, it's a changeable, the vote to cast, and we vote in seconds. We could almost, you know, God help us if it happens, but we could have a system where everything is by referendum. Like literally, you just open up your phone and these

are today's political issues. Do you agree with this or not? But yes, yes, no, no, no. And if something gets a certain percentage of votes, it becomes, it goes into law. You can build it like any way you want. My point, I guess, what I'm trying to say is it will be built on Bitcoin,

because you do not mess about with money and you do not mess about with voting. They're two of the most important... We do. Exactly what we do now, it's exactly what we're saying is what we shouldn't do. These are systems which are naturally open to corruption and manipulation for personal gain,

but they shouldn't be and that this technology is a way of securing them and locking them down. Yeah, what it does is at the moment, we're relying on humans to not act like humans, every day as they control power and money, because humans obviously, we're trying to look after

ourselves, we want to look after our families, we're basically looking out for what's best for us. Generally, we're easily corruptible. What this system is doing is saying, right, don't allow politicians and banks to collude behind closed doors and decide where interest rates are going

and where the money's going to be sent and where the stock buybacks and all these things can go on, which are the things that are going to cause us, in my opinion, this crash, we're saying just trust in mathematics and physics. You're trusting in time and algorithms rather than human emotion,

and we trust these algorithms to do everything else. You don't ask directions anymore. When was the last time you stopped and went, oh yeah, you just go on Google Maps, you trust that that is going to do it, or any of these things? Basically, we trust in mathematics to govern the

systems that really matter. Okay, so that's how it could be applied to other things, but going straight back to the money, what do you think bitcoins can actually do in the future? Is it actually going to protect people financially? It's hard to tell really. What it won't do is

necessarily distribute wealth in a... It won't be more evenly dispersed, necessarily, because... It will still be open to capitalism and consumerism. You can still have rich people and poor people on a Bitcoin system. What I'm saying is I don't think it's necessarily going to make it so that

there's less of a divide. I wish it would, but I don't think it will. The difference is that anyone has the opportunity to sell anything, buy anything, build anything. However they want to earn, they can do that. I think it will reduce the divide, because I think you'll have less corporations,

holding large amounts of money, because there's still the opportunity for individuals and businesses to do well, but I don't think the financial institutions will have that much sway. It will just be trading institutions. I think that's a huge difference, because a company like Amazon,

or someone that's selling something, for them to do well was fine. That's okay, because they're selling products, and they're making something, and they're not really manipulating the financial markets in any way, shape or form. But if you're a bank and what you're doing is trading in debts

and investments, then you're messing with the money system, and those elements of the rich, the kind of more disruption than someone who's just trading, and a big trader. Are you talking about them? A financial institution. In the current system.

In the fiat money system. I think it will eliminate those rogue. What is the film with you and McGregor about the Wall Street guy just traded billions and lost it all? These people that are responsible for huge crashes and huge losses, because the way they just behave, that kind of. Right now, I think it's, in my opinion,

anyway, it's more down to who controls money supply, and who will devalue their currency? Yeah, I think you'll eliminate all that. That's where it really matters. I think what I was saying is how will it change things? I don't think the distribution will be

fairer, but you won't have your money debased. You're going to know what's the inflation rate, of my currency, in a year, 10 years, 50 years, 100 years, and you know that with Bitcoin, because it's just maths, and anyone can check it. It's already built in, so you know exactly

where you're going to be, so you can forecast better for business. If you're not going to be worrying about, well, I'm buying property, and maybe my rates and my mortgage is going to go up, you don't ever know that. It's always, you're always just playing a guessing game,

and other people control the outcome. Excuse my dog in the background. We're going to pause it here. All right, so that's my fault, my rat bag dog's barking. I mean, they may actually do it again.

We're going to be talking about whether we can create a fairer society, if we go to a Bitcoin standard. For people who don't know what a Bitcoin standard is, I would suggest you read a safety in a moose's book, the Bitcoin standard. It puts ideas together

in a really, really clear and understandable way, and explains how maybe we can make things better if we change off fiat, and whether we can go to something that's going to be better for everyone.

I've seen certainly over the last few years that life's getting harder for most people. I think that's massively important to put a stake in the ground and say that life is difficult at the moment. For a lot of people, one of the things I do on the side is I am the union representative

for teachers, and obviously the unions are quite involved in a lot of political issues. I received a whole bunch of union promotional materials through the post, and one of the big things is, where's all this extra money that we've been promised? Politicians are going around saying,

we're going to free up money, this, that, and the other, and just at the end of the day, everyone knows that life's getting harder. Everyone knows that your shopping is more expensive, that's always more expensive, that the cost of living that rent is more expensive, everything

compared to 10 years ago. We have money devalued every day that we hold it. The share gets smaller over time because we print more of it. It's not a scarce asset, it becomes less and less valuable to silent tax. Economists will tell you inflation is good, and that we need it for our society,

and otherwise everything will collapse. Good to have inflation, and I'm here to challenge that. I don't think it is good. The normal person has to lose money every day on top of all the other taxes that we pay, and I don't think it is good. The normal person can't just put their money in

the bank, and you get any sort of increase in value. In fact, you get the reverse, and if we go back not long ago, interest rates in banks, you ask your grandparents, I'll say, "I'll leave you money in your bank, you get your interest." Well, not anymore. We're in a society now where, in their

late 20s, early 30s, it's very difficult to get on the housing ladder. This is a shop. I remember, when I was growing up in 90s, I know people that left school at 16 got jobs, got mortgages, got houses, got on the property last super quick. They could get loans easily, they weren't skilled,

but they were able to get good paying jobs that allowed them, if they had good aptitude and a good attitude towards work, then they were able to make money. I don't even think that's true nowadays. Money is harder to get hold of. People aren't able to get on that property ladder.

Everything seems to have dropped off very, very quick. If you already got money, brilliant. They say that. They don't know. The shift in global financial, like the top 1% is getting the people that with the most money are getting a smaller and smaller

group. The population's increasing and we've got more and more people with less and less money. We're cutting out our middle class. We're just funneling stuff straight to the top. So to explain this briefly is that your money's being devalued. They have to print more.

That money tends to go to the people with the most money first. I believe, I'll have to correct this at the end if I'm wrong, but I believe this is called the cantillan effect. This is basically, if you have lots of money, it's very, very easy to borrow it and borrow at good rates.

And if you have that money, you can invest in assets. So you can invest in property, you can invest in the stock market, you can invest that the average person can't. Because we're printing money, that money must go somewhere and that money goes into property, for example.

And that's why we see roughly every 10 years the property market's doubled. Travis Cling, one of the things he said is that it's basically been universal basic income for rich. Because if you own assets, you get given money for free. I don't have a problem with people

making money. I think it's great. The chance to actually bring yourself up in this world is necessary, but I think that the way that things are balanced at the moment are not fair for the average person.

We're going to talk about whether Bitcoin can change that, whether it can allow people to store their wealth. If we think right now, let's just say you're in the UK, you've got an average job and each month, maybe you can put away £100 or £200 a month. And a lot of people can't do that,

but let's say you can. What do you do? How do you save that money or how do you invest that money? I look at what's available and it looked pretty bleak. I was in the property business. It was good.

It was hard work, but we've made money, not so much anymore. There have been some changes that have made it very, very difficult for landlords. On top of that, I'm thinking, we're pretty likely to have a recession here. The property market, I don't think is going to do very well. So you've

got a huge amount of risk and the rewards are diminishing. Well, what we've seen in the last 20, 30 years, as long as I've been able to keep interest in it, being just under 40 myself, property does seem to go up. I've got a house, it's under offer at the moment, and I have made

money on selling that house. So property is still pretty safe. I agree with what you say, though. I do feel that there will be, we've seen the housing market crash here in the UK. We know it's something that could happen, but for now, it does actually seem to be quite a safe bet. There are certain

things people need. People always need homes. People always need food and fuel. So I guess those would be the safest bet, you know, any investments in that. And these are the most cut-throat industries as to the ones that everyone has moral issues with. For someone who's putting away £100, £200

a month, their options are pretty slim with the generation before us, pretty much if you'd invested in any stock, any property, anywhere, you'd have made very, very good money. And I think the people of our generation who are looking to invest that £100 or £200, I don't see that option for them.

We are at the peak of both housing almost. I think every market basically is topping out. We're in more debt than we've ever been. Have governments who seem unable to coordinate, unable to solve any of the major problems that we have in the world? Either unable or unwilling,

it doesn't really matter. They're not doing what they're supposed to be doing. I would like there to be, for once, when everything comes crashing down, it's not the average person who pays for all the faults of the people who have made the problems in the first place. I believe if you

do something and you make a mistake, it should be yours to clear up. And that's not the current system. What would a world look like if, over the next five years, more and more people get involved in Bitcoin? Let's say that maybe they're not keeping all their wealth in it,

but maybe they're keeping a proportion. It might be 5%, 10%, 50%. What does the world look like? What are the pros? What are the cons? And it'd be interesting to hear from you, Karen, because I'm so involved and I'm so in a bubble. For me, this all seems so obvious. Frustrates me beyond belief.

Well, I see that. And I always feel like I'm trying to slow you down. And I always end up going, well, I can see where you're going. I just don't think it's going to be that quick or that easy.

My feelings with it comes down to inertia. Money will persist. When I say money, obviously we're talking about fear of money. I think that will persist as long as it has inertia. Bitcoin has to then catch up with it. They're kind of racing side by side. Only then does it

have a chance. That's going to happen one or two ways. At the moment, fear of money is a freaking huge juggernaut tearing down the motorway 100 miles an hour. And Bitcoin is a little scooter poogling along behind it at half the speed. If we're talking about percentage, if we actually scale

it up, it's not even, it's an am. So what has to happen for Bitcoin to have the impact that you, and I see it happening eventually. I just don't know the timescale. What's happening eventually is Bitcoin growing. And the only way that it can actually take over and protect us is from,

if it's of equal size, that's going to happen by fear of money crashing and slowing down, essentially. So we're going to see market crashes that are going to destroy and damage fear of money. But it's kind of like renewable energy. We're not all going to switch to a

renewable energy until we physically can't get hold of petroid. In the UK now, petrol is one pound 30. When petrol is like 10 pound a litre, everyone's going to have a Tesla because it's cheaper to run an electric car than it is to run a petrol car. This is that simple. That's what's

going to be the switchover between, and we're going from fear money to Bitcoin. It has to come to that point where it's almost inevitable that you're going to switch to Bitcoin because it's just an obvious, but what's worrying is it's going to take the destruction of fear, not just the growing

of big, but the collapse of fear money. You kind of gave the prologue to it when you were talking, saying the idea that you think people are going to lose money on fear money. We're going to have a stock market crash. We're going to have, and it's only then that the people who have stored their

money in Bitcoin will be like, well, my money's fine and say, and then we'll start to see that transition to Bitcoin after fear money collapses. So it's going to actually take a disaster to bring this into play realistically. I tend to agree with you in terms of it's going to take

a disaster for people to switch, and the reason it's going to take a disaster for people to switch is because they don't have time to research this stuff. No one knows what Bitcoin is, or almost no one knows what it is or why it's here. You're talking about huge systemic change.

So that kind of thing requires a huge investment to move. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And even if it is broke, we'll just kind of ignore it and hope it'll be OK. That's a direct quote from Peep Show, but it's absolutely true of our financial system. Because Peep Show fan in the world

sitting here, right? I won't reference them in future. I'll just keep quoting from it. But yeah, that's the way it is with the stock market and the energy economy. We know it's broken. We know that people are dying due to climate change. We're seeing fires around the world

right now with floods. We all know, but we're just kind of ignoring it and hoping it will go away until it's killing us and destroying us. Until it's us, I think is key. Yeah, until it's up. And I think that exactly about Bitcoin as well. We're out of pocket. We're not going to start

switching to digital nationwide scale. Hopefully you see this is a better money. Don't hedge your bets. Don't say look into it. It's really easy. You've just said it to me. Just put some money in Bitcoin and sit on it. Save it. Don't put it into an ISA. Buy some Bitcoin. Make sure it's secured

and stored. Use a site like 21 BTC and they can help you out and get you on that. Links below. Agreed. If for any reason, maybe explain why there's so much safer because it's the opposite of this.

So this is what you've said to me in the past. Basically, what we're saying is people won't change until it's too late because they'll do it when everything's just gone to it. And everyone's going to be on it as well at point. So you lose any advantage. The current financial system is broken.

Fine. You do a bit of research. Anyone can see it. Anyone who spends the time, you can see that the system is broken. Bitcoin is a completely separate financial system. It is a payments network as well as a store of value and many other things which it takes some time to really wrap your head

around. I think that's the cool thing to be able to understand is that it's not just here's some digital money. It's like here's a different way of exchanging value. So and that includes all of the stuff that we're talking about. The inflation stock markets bank. For people who don't know,

this is deflationary. It is the absolute opposite. Instead of printing more money, there's less and less supply each time that we have a block carving. All of this stuff, I'm going to go into more detail on another podcast because we'll be here for hours otherwise. The technical side of it is

kind of buy and buy. It's the global social economic impact that I don't think people really understand. And that's what you've spent a lot of time explaining to me is more that it will replace faulty system. It's not a new currency that works on traditional payment rails like these of it.

It's not that. It is a native digital currency and it is the first scarce digital asset. It wasn't possible. It's talking about what money is and where money comes from because that's a hard for people to understand. Before we go to Ferris Society, what is money? It's not the first scarce

currency because gold is scarce and there's a finite amount of gold in the world and gold was our first currency. Bitcoin's more scarce, provably scarce. So you know exactly how much there is.

It is modelled on gold. It's modelled on gold. Yeah. Whoever made this Satoshi Nakamoto, we don't know. I'm glad we don't know the system. That's an interesting thing in itself. The secret person or persons that invented it and released it and then just disappeared.

Satoshi, whoever you are, thank you. If you are one person, what did your mum feed you? How are you so bright? How did you understand the computer science side? How did you understand the cryptography? How did you understand how people interact? How did you take human greed and make

it an incentive system to make the world a better place? Do you think Satoshi actually intended for Bitcoin to be what it is now appearing to be? It was just digital cash. That's a simple idea of digital cash. If you go back through all the emails. There are some records. I don't know

huge amount. I know the basics that a white paper was published, a scientific white paper, talking about digital currency and how it'd be implemented. I don't know how it then was implemented and how the servers and how the technology, the code itself, was written. What money really was,

if we go back, we have gold. Gold is worth something. So a gram or a quarter ounce or whatever measurement you have of gold is worth a certain amount of stuff and you can buy things with that and exchange rates in different places vary due to the scarcity of objects that you're trying to change your gold.

Then I don't remember when it was. You can look this up but there was the first time any paper money was printed is because some rich guy deposited a load of gold in a bank and the bank gave him a receipt. Bill of receipt. He got his first bill, dollar bill and he was able to take that receipt

and then get more gold out at another place. Paper money is backed by gold. It's a receipt for gold. It's an IOU for gold. That idea that money was just a receipt for gold lasted up until 1970.

And Nixon closed the gold window. So you used to be able to take your dollar bills to the cashier or the bank and actually take your gold out, I believe. The money now is an abstract concept.

It's not backed by gold anymore. Now we've got this problem where we can print as more money and we've got more money than gold. So it's no longer backed by gold and it's just this esoteric made up thing that we just go, well, this is worth some money. The problem we're having is as we say

inflation. If I have 100 pounds in my pocket today and I travel in time to the future, which is possible, not backwards, I can find that my 100 pounds is now worth Jack. Are we going to even buy a car? I think we've all heard our parents or grandparents tell us how much they bought their

house for or their car for 50 years ago. It's amazing because you listen and you say, oh yeah, I bought a five bedroom house for 2000 pounds or whatever it was. Those pounds are still pounds, they just buy you less. So now you want curtains in your house. It's going to cost you what the house

did devaluing of currency. And I think the key here is we are no longer tied to anything. We are agreeing it has value between us as a society. Crazy idea that what we think as a society, the best thing is that money should go down in value over time. Even though we've seen huge crashes like

Germany at the end of the First World War where you see kids playing with millions and millions of switch marks. We know it can happen. Look at what's happening in Venezuela. They're extreme, they're extreme cases, but even in England now. It costs, I think how much it cost five, 10 years

ago to buy the same stuff. It's ridiculous and petrol. And these aren't things, these aren't frivolous things that people are just buying because they want. These things people actually need to survive in the world today. Food, quite energy. Yeah, water. Yeah. The cost of everything's

going up. That I think actually you summed it up really well. We understand. You can you can battle it back boy. What is Bitcoin? It's something that's been in the making for over 40 years.

People have been trying to make digital cash for a long time. There's a lot of libertarian who most of them ended up being gold bugs. They were the crazy uncle or granddad who was telling you keep gold buried somewhere because the government's deceiving your money and you know not to trust

them and keep it in gold. I agree with them. They were right clearly. 40 years also in the making. It came out of the financial crisis was when it was released. Anyone here who had property or stocks or anything around 2008, you will remember this pain. The banks were really,

really irresponsible. They were allowing people to invest in property and other assets that they couldn't afford. Essentially ran the car into the wall. Yeah, I think they knew that once they had caused all these problems, the taxpayer was going to bail them out anyway because we had no

other option we only had. They control it. They took the risk when they take the risk and it pays off for them. They keep all the reward. If they take a risk and it doesn't pay off for them, we pay for it. That's not very fair. They socialize their losses. 2008 happens. People lose their

homes. People lose their job. Unemployment goes up and the bankers get paid enormous bonuses. January 3, 2009. Satoshi Nakamoto releases on the world Bitcoin. Read the white paper, but basically it's a peer-to-peer electronic cash system modeled on gold. It's a deflationary asset and it has some

really useful properties alongside which I'll go into shortly. But he releases software. It's open source. It can be downloaded by anybody, anywhere, on basically any operating system. In the block header, which is the first block that ever came out. They come out roughly every 10 minutes. He had

quote from Times on January 3, 2009, which said, "Chancellor at bring off second bailout for banks." I believe what he's saying here is he was telling us why he's created this. It's basically saying, "We're sick of this. This is not for the average person to be paying you out. You shouldn't be

bailing out the banks. This is going to cause problems, especially for the poorest people in society. They're going to do worse." What he's basically said is, "You've taken the piss. I'm going to make you irrelevant." The idea is anyone, anywhere in the world, can send value to anyone

else anywhere in the world. No one can stop it. No one can seize it. No one can freeze it. You don't need to have an identity. You don't need to have an address. You don't have to be told by someone you're good enough to have a bank account, about one and a half billion people who have access to

banking like we do. We're very privileged. It's seven or eight billion. That's the majority of people that don't have a bank account. Not only do they not have a bank account, but sometimes this inflation is to a point price of things changes as you audio next drink. You have people going to buy

a chicken with a wheelbarrow worth of cash because their cash has been devalued to the point where people are starving. The idea behind the system is we don't leave them out. We're human. We should try if we can to include everyone and try and make the world a better place. Instead, it's actually

happened that less and less people have access to banking. So this system is meant to be open, fair, trustless. And the key behind it is you can't inflate this money. Now that wasn't possible.

The opposite, isn't it? There's going to be how many bitcoins are they going to be at the end? Just under 21 million. And that number will never, it hasn't got there yet, because in similar way to like gold, some is still being mined. People have heard that

mining of Bitcoin is the release of more minted coins effectively. There's more to it than that, but that's basically it. The Bitcoin mining will essentially finish at a certain point. 2140 roughly. And then this is all pre-programmed. So it's not just a surprise when it comes up

in the stock. We're going to keep slowly growing. And is it me or is the rate of increased slow down? 2020 blocks, I might have that wrong in my room, 20,000 blocks. But it's roughly every four years.

The reward for miners, so how much Bitcoin they find if you relate it to gold, halfs. So we started with 50. You went to 25. We're at 12 and a half now. It's going to half again in about 200 days. And this will continue until 2140. And then at that point, there'll be just under 21 million. But then the amazing thing about Bitcoin is,

okay, so you stop getting any more. But what actually happens is we can chop it up into smaller and smaller pieces. They can be. But you think about that like a pound or a dollar can be split into 100 units, which seems quite a lot. And perhaps when money was invented and used, it was a decent.

Yeah, it was a fine standard. I don't think people will realize that 10 to the 8 is such a huge number, 100,000 pennies per pound. And as you say, they can even be subdivided further. Which brings all sorts of businesses that couldn't survive with our current system will be born from

this system. A streaming money can't do it at the moment. The fees are too high and it's just not possible. But all these sort of things will be useful. But the fact that it's scarce, I think, is one of the most important things. If not the most important thing, it's the first digitally

scarce asset. It wasn't deemed to be possible. Satoshi Nakamoto invented digital scarcity. If you think about it, any file on the internet, picture, any video, any text, perfectly infinite amount of times. This can't. Pretty amazing invention. It means that your value

doesn't get eroded away. Basically, as more people join the network, and as the network becomes more useful to more people, and as this gets more and more scarce over time, the currency is tied to the network. Work is growing at an exponential rate. And because the currency Bitcoin is tied to the

network, it means the growth of the currency grows at an exponential rate. That's why we see, over time, generally, this is a very good place to store your money. That's very good. That's very useful. But on top of that, the fact that anyone in the world is welcome to use it. It doesn't matter

what your social status is. It doesn't matter what your race is. It doesn't matter what your gender is. It doesn't even matter if you are human. This can be a software agent. You can go pretty deep with this stuff. And for robotics and the way the future's going, I think AIs can have their own

money and manage and manage their own money. The fact that we can include everyone. And at the moment, 5 billion, 6 billion people have pretty much no access. Or if they do it, Paul, if they want to send remittance payments from people like Western Union, the poorer you are, the more you pay. For

people who are sending money back home, trying to support their families in a different country, they're charged like 20% upwards to send their money. And because all you're doing is sending data from one place to another. Now, how much does it cost me to send you a message? Nothing. Why should

there be someone in the middle leaching off the poorest people on the planet? For basically just sending information, you can send your money anywhere in the world. Your money can't be debased by anybody. I mean, it's definitely safer and more secure for people. But the idea that it's not going

to devalue is the most fascinating thing for me. The idea that if I put 100 pounds into Bitcoin, and I just sit on it, try and love to try that experiment. 100 pounds in cash, 100 pounds in Bitcoin, and then just follow them through time and see which one's going to buy me more petrol,

bread. And I can guarantee that in 20 years time, that 100 pounds in cash, as long as it's still kept up to date in terms of the notes. A lot of it still have it. And I just, you know, if they change the notes, I take the banking change, it's still 100 pounds. That 100 pounds will be worth

way, way, way, like a significant amount less than it was. And but the Bitcoin will be worth it. If it survives, just a pre a warning to people, I'm very involved in this. I believe it's going to survive. It's still an experiment. It's 10 years in, but it's still an experiment. And let's

be clear, every bank and every government does not want this to happen. The previous leader in the UK was was trying to push through legislations that would stop people from being able to use it.

A lot of the banks are blocking payments for UK citizens to buy. I mean, I still buy through my account and I haven't had any issues. It may be certain exchanges. Is it the size of the value?

No, it doesn't seem to be. It seems that just more and more of the blocking them if they know it's for that payment. I do know that when I want to purchase Bitcoin, it always says do not use Bitcoin or BTC or anything like that in the reference. You know, I'm because it's competition. Go and

ask taxi driver what they think of Uber. What they're going to tell you, go and ask a hotel owner what they think of Airbnb. What are they going to tell you? This is competition. It's the first time the banking sector and the financial institutions have ever seen competition because they control

the market through regulation. They basically have regulators as their pipples. This is the first time that the internet has come up against it. It's come up against every other industry in the world and it's won. It's now, I think, the time for finance. It might not work. I think it will need to listen

more, learn more until you become comfortable with it yourself. But there is a chance that this could not work. I'd be very sad if it didn't work because I think it is the best chance humanity has. I think this is kind of inevitable eventually now that the idea has been floated. Yeah, you can't

kill an idea. Yeah, exactly that. And it will just continue. It might not be Bitcoin. I think it will, but whether it's this or something else, yes. Also, we've got Elon Musk sending probes to the plant Mars. We're thinking we may actually end up building bases out of that will mean that we'll

need a light speed digital currency. Well, if we're going to transfer monetary through those systems, because if they will be trade between different planets, and we'll need high speed, because currently it would take four minutes to send a Bitcoin transaction to and from Mars. That's incredibly fast. You

couldn't go faster than that because of the speed of light. But how long does it take to send a payment on Earth for a house when you want to buy a house and you've got to transfer money? How long does that take to payment? You know, several hundred thousand pounds. Not just the payment for how long

does it take the sort of institutions to do what they need to do? How long does it take your solicitors and everyone else? The answer to anyone who's not involved in property is like four months of absolute pain of just banging your head against a wall trying to get people to do their jobs that

you've paid them to do and buy something. It takes four months. There's just two people who one wants to sell, one wants to buy, and it takes four months. And everyone's taking a piece. That is the system you're locked into. As if we have a Bitcoin system, I've got a house, you've got a house, the value

transfer, we can just do that between us. Done. And information can be recorded on there. No one can go back. No one can change it. For the average person, it's fairer and it's freer. The system we've got at the moment has kind of slowly evolved over time. And it's kind of like a dinosaur. And then

their period in the Jurassic period, dinosaurs were great. They ruled, they were great. But then there was, there was a change and they didn't survive that change. And I think that's what's going to happen. We are going to have to need a cataclysm. Bitcoin is kind of like the little rat monkey

only scurrying around amongst the feet of the dinosaurs. But when that meteor hits and the climate changes, Bitcoin is going to be the only thing left that survives and the only thing that can then grow and evolve. And it will, that's the thing, it will be better suited to our new financial climate.

Money just isn't up to the task. Everything's going digital. It would make sense to have a digitally native currency. It just makes sense. And who's, apart from the middle men themselves, who's going to stand up and go, Oh, actually, I think having a solicit to do my transactions for me,

when you just, you just, you can, you know what you want to do. Why isn't there a blockchain, Bitcoin style contract that just immediately does those things for you? But I mean, it's very early stage technology. Money makes the world go around. If you want something done, the more money or value

you have. Well, I think that's important distinction in the value, because you know, some people will have real estate, some people will have still, still deal with raw minerals, like gold or marble, or things that have value are not just fiat money. No, and the people who have the most money

keep the least money in fear. They keep it in property. They keep it in stock market. They keep it in wherever they see growth. That's where they put it. The average person is living paycheck to paycheck. They keep whatever they have in the bank, and it devalues. The average person does not buy

stocks. The average person does not invest in property. It's not that they'd necessarily don't want to. It's just, it's so far out of reach, because we've inflated all of these assets. And the reason we've done that is because when you print money has to go somewhere. And that's why

we come from somewhere, doesn't it? The value for that extra money has to come out of something else. And where does it come from? Is the average person comes out of their pockets, it goes into the pockets of the people at the top. It goes into assets. People talk about Bitcoin as a bubble. We

have a housing bubble. We have a stock market bubble. We have a bond bubble. We have everything bubble right now. What does that mean? It means that these assets have been inflated to unrealistic prices. As they're blowing up and they're going to pop. Like we saw in 2008, we're going to see it

again. But this time, it's everything. It's the same reason as before. And they're going to expect everyone to pay for their mistakes again. Now that there's a separate option, it's opt in. If you want to do it, you do it. If you don't, you don't. It gives people like a little escape raft. Oh,

well, this is all going to go to shit. Well, maybe we should jump onto this other system. That's the thing that anyone can invest in Bitcoin. Anyone can invest any amount in Bitcoin as well. Or earn it. You don't have to buy it. You can earn it. That's, that's the ideal way is if you have a service,

honey mine or mining, honey miner, not not a sponsor of the pod. I have no sponsors at the moment. I'll take any sort of sponsorship. If you want to come, you want to bring me a meal or a bottle of wine or, you know, any sort of sponsorships we are begging for. That's caring as well. I think

I speak for both of us money. Money makes the world go around. Yeah. And so that we can stack some stats. We just want to afford chairs. That's all. Yeah. If we can have chairs, 10 episodes in, somehow I've bought a chair and I'm not sat on paint pots anymore. And a town. I mean,

you are a luxury. That's true. We've got a town. That's true. We've got to think about what we've got. We're actually very lucky. We are very lucky. Yeah. I mean, but anyone can like use Bitcoin to donate as well. That's one of the amazing features of it is that maybe you don't

want to donate a pound to someone, but you, you can't, you can't send a penny, but you can do that. Or even less. You can pay quarter a penny or a tenth of a penny tomorrow. Now that might not seem a lot to you, but to someone else who's receiving it, it can make all the difference,

like the charity donations that most people have, the minimum amount, like five pounds. Now, what if you couldn't give five pounds, but you could give a pound, just a pound? That's, how much more like, how much more willing would people be to say, oh, I'll just give a pound a

a month? And then that can be digitally streamed into Bitcoin and just distributed to people all around the world in so much of a better way than the fiat money is allowing charity to be done.

Of course, the media and the, you know, bank by the banks who are scared of this, they push the idea that it's criminals who use it, but it doesn't take a lot to realize that the biggest money laundering organization in the world is HSBC. Or all of these banks, banks, if you're listening,

we all share this planet is beautiful. We've got some amazing animals. We've got, we've got some shitty people. We've got some nice ones as well. Yeah, people are so short-sighted. They see their nice suit, their lee office, their amazing view from their high-rise windows. And these guys don't

care. They are out for themselves. I'm not too ashamed to admit that if I was in that position, I probably would do the same things. People will look up for themselves. I think people do look up themselves. If you had the opportunity to make loads of millions of pounds, and I was the expense

of everybody else. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't be the guy who's, but it's a case of small cog in a big machine. I don't think it's the idea of this, that they occasionally are these uber arseholes who do terrible, terrible things. But in the case, it's mostly people that just do

small little things to make a little bit of money on the side. No one's really getting hurt. Oh, the price of this drops a little. The cumulative effect of all that, visuals get richer, but they don't see the damage they're doing. And it's the same with,

there's a huge similarity between Bitcoin and climate change. In that, all of us are doing the same thing. We'll drive our cars. We'll leave our electricity on. We know that we're pumping CO2 into the air and we can look outside the window and we see hotter days every summer. We can see the

news that the posters are burning, but we don't link our behavior to the outcome. Whether it is, this is something I struggle with quite a lot because I haven't had the time to really look into everything to do with climate change. I don't trust anything that's in the media, a little bit

in full hat like that. I want to find things for myself. Whether we are causing the climate to change with the way that we're behaving as a society or not, I don't know. But what I do know is if there's a chance that we're doing it and we should really, worst case scenario, if we're not causing climate

change, and this is just naturally going to happen with or without us. We're not making it any better though, aren't we? No, this is what I'm saying. So like, if we do our best to make it better, the worst case scenario is, well, okay, we've made life a little bit more challenging for ourselves.

But if we are making the climate change and we don't do anything, we're fucked. Yeah, I agree. We should, and these are the sort of things that this podcast is about. The governments are not going to fix this.

They don't have a very good track record. They are the most inefficient with their money of any organization. And it doesn't seem like they are going to fix this in time. I think that the average person does care about climate change because I think the average person cares about their

children and grandchildren. Yeah, maybe we get this still will same behaviors and habits because we don't link. I mean, let's let's think about this logically. Imagine you wanted to live with a zero carbon footprint, or you just wanted to live completely on digital cash. These two things are

impossible at the moment. They are physically impossible to live a normal life in our society. How are you going to travel to work if you live a distance away and you have to rely on low on zero carbon transport? How are you going to get paid if you're if you're a civil servant and the

government who pay you say, well, we're not paying you're in Bitcoin, you have to then transfer your money to Bitcoin, you have to then transfer the money from Bitcoin to make payment as well. So you're kind of being pushed outside the system. We all know, I think we all know that money is broken.

And a few people are starting to get the idea. I don't think it met as many people realize how impactful Bitcoin will be in replacing money and taking away the problems. Yeah, most people who know about Bitcoin just think I bought some and sold it when I went up in money and it went.

There's not many people who really have gone deep into this. And it's just because they don't have time a lot of them or they're not interested in economics. They're not interested in this kind of stuff, but it still affects them. The fact, like you said earlier, the media coverage of this stuff

is very much negative. So yeah, I was kind of saying we know what Bitcoin is. We see how it compares to fiat money, but how is it going to be different from the average person in a post Bitcoin world?

Everyone now using Bitcoin, you know, you get laughed at if you've got pound notes or they don't exist. Yeah, they don't even exist just a relic. So how does that look differently for the average person? You said something really interesting. We talked about retirement age. A dramatic impact.

I would say that due to inflation, even though it's very small, you don't realize it each year that as it compounds over time, I would say that the amount of time that we need to work is two to three times longer than it needs to be. We're talking about scarcity earlier. Bitcoin is

digitally scarce. It's scarcer than gold. It's going to be the most scarce asset on the planet. But what's more scarce than Bitcoin is time. But yeah, how many of those billion heartbeats are we going to waste doing something for someone else that we don't really like?

I forget the exact statistic, but it is something like 87% or 88% of people do not like their jobs, feel anxious about going in on a Monday. That's not great. I think everyone has an interest.

Coin isn't going to completely remove the need for meaningless mindless jobs that people won't like. Maybe with automation, some of these are going to be eroded away, some of these sort of jobs that people aren't so interested in, and maybe it's going to be more of a creative world.

It's certainly reduced the amount of time you have to do a job you don't like for. Most people now start work late teens, early twenties, and they work till the retirement age now in this country is 70 to 70 years. People are told they were going to get a pension at an age,

they're not getting it, more because the money is deflated. Our money is inflated so it's worthless, so we can't give our money to our aging population. We have all this debt, and to think, any of you sat here who you were in late twenties, thirties, that kind of age, don't believe the lies, you're

not getting pensions, there's too much debt. It would be nice if we didn't have that problem. The idea of pensions, and it did work back in the day, it was great for people who got them, but going forward. I think you said this earlier, basically all we're trying to do is do a job

until we are secure and that we can cover our own costs. Yeah, self-sustaining. That's the financially, that's what we try and do in life. We try and get a job, earn more of the job, buy a house, own the house, to pay rent on the house, so then we don't have to pay the biggest

cost every month, which is rent or mortgage. Then we've got more free money. The only things that we are always always going to need are food and energy, but then once we own our own home, we can then earn less to cover our food and energy costs, to become self-sustaining with less work.

Well, most people can do small, easy jobs that make them happy to earn that, those smaller costs. It's the bigger costs, so we need to work harder for a period of time to become self-sustaining, essentially to own our property. What you're saying is Bitcoin is going to reduce the amount

of time that you have to work because there's no inflation. Inflation is currently meaning that instead of you're working for 60 years, when you only need to work for 20 or 40. And the fact that your money doesn't devalue means that when you invest, you don't need to rush

to invest. You don't have to say, "Oh, well, I've got money in the bank. I know it's going to devalue, so I have to invest in the stock market and my financial advisor." By the way, don't listen to financial advisors. Every time anyone I know who's told them, "Well, you know them,

why? Regardless, if you lose money, they make money. You make money, they make more money." And also, if they were really good at their jobs, they would just do it for themselves. So don't listen to financial advisors. That's a really good point. If they're good at financial advice,

why are they worked? Because you just leverage yourself up. You'd make load of money and then you, "Why would you want to deal with people?" In this post-Bitcoin world, rather than having to rush and try and invest your money, you're a dentist or a doctor and you don't know anything about

finance. So you have to go and take advice from somebody and you invest. But on a Bitcoin standard, you wouldn't have to rush. You can really take your time because if you're just leaving your money in Bitcoin, that value is going up anyway. So you can take time. You can say, "You know what?

Money is its own investment." That's how it used to be. And I think that's how it should be because we all have to have our day job and then we also have to be an investor just to store our value.

Who has time for that? We can own our own house now. We've paid off those debts, have our own garden. Maybe we can grow some produce and maybe we can have solar panels so that maybe we can produce our own energy. The fact that we have more money at the end of each month than each year

means that we can make these investments. And that also speeds up the process at which we can become self-sustaining. If you can make your own energy and make most of your own food and you own your own property and you have an electric car because we're in the future and you make your

energy for that, well suddenly 80% of your costs are gone. It's also just mentally, the way people think time preferences is that you think about the future. You think of let's invest so that my children have good life and that my grandchildren and their grandchildren rather than at the

moment I feel we are so short-term. It's for politicians, it's what we're going to do in the next four years so that we get voted back in. What are we going to tell people that we're not going to actually do so that we get in again? And for everyone who's investing or just living their lives,

so what can I just buy now to make myself feel better? We lost our way a little bit I feel. The average person is less happy that they're more anxious. You see suicide rates going up, the rate of anxiety going up. You see people trying to buy themselves happiness. We haven't reached

it. When we think about ancient Greece or Rome, these ages where it was prosperous time and people were able to live easily and have that free time. I don't think we have that kind of golden image of people aren't free. I think there has been that time. I think that has passed.

Probably for me I think the 1990s were a pinnacle of what we call modern society was the time when we reached the biggest height. We started to lose Concord so we're not getting supersonic travel.

Actually travel is getting longer and slower and more difficult. Roads are more congested. We're becoming much more complex as a society and that's becoming harder and harder to sustain and grow. So we're not growing in our traditional ways that we have in the past and we're struggling

for things. We're struggling for homes. We're struggling for energy. It's basically it's the same thing. It's it's that people are controlling all of these assets and there's a massive amount of money being made by some people and everyone else suffers. It's this hierarchy. You're saying

that we're getting to this point where things are getting harder. I think potentially this is the end of hierarchies. If you look at how we organize ourselves socially now it's flat networks. The free flow of information is on a flat network. It's not hierarchical. It gives up time for people

to chase their dreams and passions and I think that's where really great ideas come from. That's where things that can change the world come from. Not from sat in a cubicle entering data for a corporation who doesn't care about you. I don't think that's very fulfilling either. No, I think

what is interesting is the idea that earning and spending will be streamed. So that that idea that you can do something that you absolutely love for as long as you want and earn as much money as you want. But if you are one of those people that even in the Bitcoin world has a job you don't really

like you can do it for the minimum amount of time. You can stream that amount of time because you can work until you've got the money you need for that month. And taxi drivers don't work on a sensible option. When it's raining they can get more fares. But taxi drivers will get whatever

their daily rate that they normally get is instead and they'll go home early on a rainy day. And then they'll work late on sunny days. The whole Bitcoin thing they can just stream and work as much as they need. I'll just stop quickly because we're talking about streaming money here. This

is something that me and Karen have talked about a lot over the last year especially. Streaming money just for anyone who doesn't follow this sort of stuff is basically the idea that with Bitcoin you can send value of any amount and you can go as granular as you want. And it's instant and

almost free to send that payment. So this is on the Lightning Network for anyone who's going to tell me if he's too high on Bitcoin. It's on a second layer solution and we've maybe we'll have layers above it as well. Bitcoin is the base. But basically it's the idea we can send value so you can pay

for everything second by second. So now we have subscription services like you were saying Netflix instead of paying the the paywall there's seven or eight pound a month that it is. You just log on and if you don't watch anything you're not paying anything. Yeah you watch two episodes you

paid for those. Yeah but you're streaming if you only watch five minutes at one and go this is rubbish and turn it off. You've only paid for those five minutes you watch everything you're paying per view essentially for every second. So the barrier to entry is lower. Much lower. You know.

No that might seem frightening like Netflix would be like oh we're going to lose our paywall ourselves but you're going to have more people subscribing. You have more people using the system. That's what's going to happen is going to allow people access to things that they couldn't

normally do but on a short term second by second base. They're target market now. If we just look at it simply and say well one and a half billion people have access to banking like we do. They're target market as Netflix is one and a half billion. What if now we're in this Bitcoin world and

everyone has a wallet? They now have eight billion people. So yeah they might have less people subscribing for their monthly and all the rest of it but actually they suddenly have so much more customer base that actually is going to be better is better for them it's better for the customer. And it's

the same with earning. You know you would earn as much as you as you need to you know and you can be paid exactly and correctly for everything. You know there'll still be monthly paid jobs and people have to work certain hours and things but it would just make life easier for people and

mean that you didn't have to do as much as you do now. I feel the last 10 years everyone sort of just feels like they're treading water. The general feeling for people is I've just got to make this paycheck. I've just got to make this paycheck. I've just got to and just hope that I have enough

money for the repairs and when my boiler goes and when this happens and just have something under the mattress for a rainy day but you're not moving forward and I think that's causing a lot of anxiety and a lot of things. We're having a world where whenever there's an advantage to be taken

everyone's on it. But we're at a population size where money was invented in a world far fewer people. I mean money's been here as long as people have really. Yeah but we were millions of people when we started using money. We're brilliant. If I gave you a million pounds now

how long? Yeah you're welcome. How long do you think you could live a basic let's say working class existence for with a million pounds? Just living and I don't work. Yeah but you have whatever car you've got now you have to buy a second hand car. Hands on right of inflation. Do you think you

could live the rest of your life on one million pounds? No. What's a working class way? So let's say 20 grand? 20 grand okay. That means if someone's getting just over a thousand pounds a month. You can pay the bills. You can pay the rent you can eat. You can live. You can probably get around but 20 grand

would last you. That's 50 years. So that would, with a million pounds you can live a working class existence until you die. Doesn't seem very good does it? But with a billion how long do you think you could live for? Me forever. A billion billions are a remarkable amount money. I have a very good

life. 50,000 years. But you know I don't think people really recognize that that huge difference in those in those amounts and that's why we we go oh we've got billionaires now. Now we've got Jeff Bezos. He's like 155 billion. His individual personal wealth. Like even if we don't assume a

working class wage. We assume a middle class or a higher class wage. There's no need for anyone to have a billion. Billion pounds or a billion dollars allows someone to live not just a middle class but an upper class wage. You've got a German sports car. You've got a really big nice house.

You've got lots of kids and pets and you go on holidays. Still a billion dollars will allow them to do that not work for the rest of their life. And allow hundreds of other people to do the same.

Hundreds of other people on one billion. So Jeff Bezos owning 155 billion means that he can make life better for thousands and thousands of people. He could live comfortably for the rest of his life and thousands of people also could. By the way I just carry out this with I do not believe in socialism.

If anyone can prove me wrong on this please come on tell me I want to be challenged but as far as I can see it doesn't work. It hasn't worked. It is never worked. However is it or we're seeing a divide? A strength of both left and left and right. It's just so polar. Yeah polarisation. I don't

want to go into that. Once you get involved in Bitcoin you just you can almost see answers. I think the financial problems that we're having drive the political problems and then they feed back to each other. A splitting of wealth drives some people to be conservative and right-wing and

want tax breaks for millionaires and they want to push themselves away and the poorer people want to be more socialist and they want to take that money back. The further the divide, the further the polarisation of these two groups and the political and it's driving our political spectrum

crazy. I think it comes down to share of the wealth and I think that it's not like we don't have enough wealth in this world. I mean we're more prosperous society than we've ever been. Things are better with healthcare than they've ever been. Yeah it's the best time to be alive. For sure.

It's not that we don't have the money. I think you know you're talking about Jeff Bezos and these sort of people. You could have a much much more fluid sort of transactions like we're saying are happening all the time. You can work at any time. You can store your wealth so the poor don't get

poorer. The way the current system set up is that the poorer you are, the poorer you get over time. The richer you are, the richer you get over time. If we can bring that more to like a flat network and you don't have all these middlemen, you don't have massive government who are really

inefficient. You don't have huge corporations that are just leaching because again, because they're bigger, they can pay to make sure their regulatory compliance and they cry out for regulation. So for small business owners and for people who, if you've got a great idea, after a while you think,

"Oh, bollocks to it. I can't keep up." It's too much money. The barrier to entry is too high. I have to cover all these regulations and everything is stacked against you. I think that changes.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think in the Bitcoin future, Jeff Bezos doesn't exist because Jeff Bezos agreed. If you don't know, you're living under a rock. He owns Amazon, right? So Amazon is just a purchasing platform. But in a future society where everyone has Bitcoin, I can go online and sell

my stuff online and stream the money. I don't need Amazon. Amazon doesn't exist. There's just a free and open marketplace. And instead of that one guy sitting on $155 billion, and the situation I described where you've got thousands of people living there, comfortable middle class existence

and happily for the rest of their lives is more likely because people are able to come up with an idea or a product or a service and sell that. If it's good and people buy it, they get all the money and they live comfortably. And there's no middleman as a bank who takes the rest of it.

We see it in pubs and cafes and stuff. It says when you buy food from here, you're not helping a CEO buy another home or a jet. You're helping a kid get ballet classes or a new football boots or something like that. You're helping individuals and the money's going from person to person without

this leaching system in the middle. We've only had this leaching system for 100 years. Maybe even less. Realistically, it doesn't start to post-second world war. Before that, it wasn't... Financial infrastructure is enormous and complex. I don't pretend to understand it, truly. The person who

admits they don't understand it is the person who understands it first because for people who say they understand it, if you really understood it, why does it keep crashing? Why do we keep having these massive problems? You clearly do not understand it. I mean, they understand it, but I think

there is this genuine fear of changing any system. We all know that electric cars are going to be better. What are you driving? Van. Not just any van. Not just any van. A VW. Transporter? Transporter.

Nice. Bolt standard spec. And what engine has it got? A TDI. That petrol diesel. Diesel. So you're burning fossil fuels? Yeah, I'm a terrible person. But you're not. I'm killing the planet. No, you're saying you're killing the planet. Why haven't you got a Tesla? I have no money to buy a Tesla.

Okay. What about a Nissan Leaf or some kind of electric or hybrid? Why have you got those? It takes a very, very long time to pay back the initial investment. And right now, the incentive is not there. It's too expensive. My van, 220,000 miles, I think it's done now,

something like that. Good. I look after it. My plan is to run that into the ground. And when I buy a new vehicle, it will be electric. Really? Yeah, it will be electric. Oh, the UK government have initiated something. I can't remember the date 2050, maybe. You can't buy a

petrol diesel fossil fuel car. But the point I'm getting at is the idea that until you absolutely have to transition, you won't. Correct. Yeah. And that's that's the case with all the politicians and the monetary system that we have. Unless until they absolutely have to,

they won't. The disgusting thing is we don't even need oil. We can use biodiesel. You can run diesel, isn't it? You know, you can pour vegetable oil in the tank. Yeah, then you put a bit of white spirit if it's cold. Yeah. Well, even like a teaspoon of white spirit in a liter makes it.

I don't think you can on the new ones because of something to do with the fuel injectors or something like that. I used to have an old G350D and that you could just pour vegetable oil in.

Yeah. Fine. I never did it. You're not allowed to do it. No, because if you did, you would have paid the tax on it. And if I did, I would have paid the tax on it. But what we've done was do it. They use their chip oil and all they all they have to do is pay the tax on, you know, as long as you're

paying tax on your fuel, then there's no problem with it. It's not illegal to do it. That's the only problem is you're not paying duty on it. So they save themselves money and use a, it's not necessarily a green technology. It just, it means they're not adding extra carbon because the plants grow

and they take carbon dioxide in and then the carbon dioxide is released in the burning process. So it just cycles the carbon through and we can get to that stage. We don't need to rely on fossil fuels. We can all have cars. These are cars more efficient if we're just using renewable sources

instead of digging up carbon that's stored in the ground. It's incentives. Yeah. This is the crux of the issue. I think with almost every single problem, all the biggest problems we have on this planet, it always comes down to people who are in power would lose money if you do that and the

incentives are not there for them to do it. It's better for the average person. It's not better for them and they're making the decision. So they're going to make the decision selfish. You can't put vegetable oil in your car. You're not allowed to. You get in trouble. Are we going to charge

more for vegetable oil now? Yeah. And so I think that it's possible if they no longer control the money, then when they ask us, you know, I think there's still going to be some form of government.

A lot of people involved in this are all out anarchy. Like, I don't know how it's... We need certain aspects, don't we? We need police force. We need fire, we need emergency services. But then there's nothing to say that Bitcoin won't individualize and those that people will you could almost be

streamed money from the things you need. Yeah. In that case, not only do we get to choose where the money goes and see where the money goes, but it's going to be so much more efficient because when governments overspend or they don't meet budgets or they try and do something and they

fuck it up, all they do is, "Oh, we raise taxes." And we just... We have to go along with it because there's no other system. If it's the other way around and they say, "We have this idea. We want to go bomb people." They're going to have to make a very good case to us why we're going to pay them

to do that. We don't have to at the moment. Our taxes go towards that. Every time you pay your tax, that's what you're paying for. I don't know about you. I don't agree with it. I don't think that, you know, if we can try and have less walk and... Stop being dickheads and stop killing people.

Just stopping ourselves. There's bigger problems. You know, all of these arguments and the things that they're saying are massive issues and all this talk about Brexit and not Brexit and this and that, it's not as important as climate change. It's not as important as trying to get the other

five and a half, six billion people to be able to be involved in our economy. It's not as important as stopping hunger. It's not as important as any of these things. Let's fix those things first.

We've got to ask us for money and prove where the money goes. We have the panopticon. Not because they treat us like criminals. Maybe we should do it the other way around. We see exactly where the money goes. We know I've paid for my road to be good. I've paid that tax. Why is there pot holes

everywhere? Yeah, you pay your road tax. Why are you still driving on crappy roads? I pay and the money's meant to go to schooling. That kills me. Obviously working in education, the current answer, we need more money in schools. Schools have got less money per head, per capita,

per person, per student. There's less money in the school than there's ever been. But what the government would just say is we're putting more money into schools now than we ever have. There's just more people. So they need to be putting more money in because there's 10 times as many people

in the schooling system. But just saying we're putting more in than we ever have doesn't mean doesn't address the simple. They just lie and use people's ignorance of numbers. It's very, very easy to skew data. Oh, so good. Just open the newspaper. You'll see it. Oh, but constantly,

though, we are struggling. Our health services struggling. These are the things that we should actually be focused on. Everyone should have their basic human rights covered. We should all be able to have access to a basic free education, basic sanitation, and living amenities, safe

environment with law enforcement and medical. To some degree, I mean, if you look back in time and you look at any law, almost any law, 20 years back, 30 years back at any time, you'll think, that's barbaric. I agree. But when I say law enforcement, I don't mean, you know, we've got

a lot of laws that now, that aren't enforcing something that is either morally correct, isn't actually supporting the mass, is supporting smaller groups. So there are those. But I mean, no one's ever going to disagree that it should be illegal to murder someone or. Yeah, the core

values. Yeah, if you solve or kill someone, we want someone to go out and find that person and then to bring them to justice, we're all going to want those basic things. Anyone who's stealing, those are the things that the police should be focused on. We need to, we should streamline and

collapse a lot of our financial and legal institutions because they're just bizarre. And then there's more money for those police to act like in England, any of you who are in England, how much faith you have in the police sorting a problem, it's got to be pretty low. They're so stretched. They're

focusing on things that most people don't care about, or like you say, only really help a very, very, very small section of our society when really they should be sorting out things like murders, like people going missing serious crimes. Maybe they'd have more time to do it. I think almost

definitely they'd have more time. I think almost definitely they'd have more money because it'd be more efficient system because now there's accountability. You're also, I think, going to have less of the problems for them to deal with because most of the time when people are, if someone

is robbing or if someone is doing something criminal, a lot of the time it's because they are in dire financial position and they is live or die for a lot of these people. And we can sort of be snooty about these things and look down our nose at people. But I'll tell you what, if you're in

that same situation, you've got a family to feed and you've just lost your job and you are in a position where you have someone who's ill and you need to pay their bills or, you know, there's there's something that it's to protect your family. You are going to do whatever it takes.

That's just human nature. You look after your own. Yeah, I guess when we I think we'll always have some forms of crime, I think in a Bitcoin future, we'll probably see less petty crime. Yeah. Yeah, I think we'll see much more large scale. Yeah, you're angry. And people are angry and they're

they're angers being misdirected. It's being misdirected. It's you're angry because things are harder. Life's really hard. It's saving money is really difficult. But we don't talk about that.

We talk about our immigrants. We point fingers or the media point fingers and we're all fighting. Basically, we want the same things. We want sanitation. We want good road. We want to. We want.

It's not ever going to be debated that poverty causes crime. And if we can eradicate personal poverty, and that means that everyone has those basic requirements, then we're not going to have that level of crime. Simple. If people are looked after and kept well, then we'll have less and

we'll still have it incidents and issues, but we'll have less for our police forces to deal with. But we need those. Bitcoin's not there yet. But the whole point is that Bitcoin is Bitcoin as a currency, technically, it's not perfect. It's still working live. But do you know what?

It's a very good monetary policy. It works. We've got some really, really bright engineers doing amazing stuff. Just keeping up with this stuff is really hard. So as a money, I think that actually, we're pretty much there. It can do some tweaking. I think it needs more privacy and some other

things. But it's there. These smart contracts and all this other stuff that's talked about, I don't think it's there. I don't think it's going to be there for a long time. But if we can just start with the money. So you think in our future world of Bitcoin, we have the money,

but we don't have the blockchain. So we still have government at this stage. We've got Bitcoin money. How is that going to work? How is government going to fit around Bitcoin? Because I honestly believe, and you've convinced me and presented me on this path, that Bitcoin is just the start,

and the blockchain will eventually supersede government so that everything will be automated by very basic AIs that are probably available now. If I want to buy a seller house, we keep talking about buying a seller house, but it's a really complex procedure. But now in the future,

I could literally go online and click a house. So this is the one I want to buy. It's an escrow. It's an escrow account. And then when everyone's clicked the button, it just automatically transacts. And everyone knows it's on everyone's ledger everywhere.

Yeah. And then we just check the exchange key. We just go to the house, pick up the keys, and that's it. We own the house. And there's no, I've not had to speak to a conveying solicitor. I've not had to deal with a mortgage company. It's all abstracted into the background.

It's just, it's just done through the blockchain. So I honestly think that's much more exciting that in the future that there will be no essentially governance as well. No middlemen anywhere. No. Exactly. No middlemen.

But with that, for that, you need a really good monetary base. Yeah. So you think there's going to be the explosion of Bitcoin first. So we, what you're predicting is that you can have a system of governments and Bitcoin before you have a complete system, which is just

yeah, you have to have a transition phase. I think that it will completely flip the power. Yeah. I was going to say, I think it'd be really quick once Bitcoin comes in, how fast government fades out. This is the thing that's made them irrelevant.

When they don't control money, they don't have an electronic power. Effectively, they go back to we have people to do the things that we need doing. We technically employ them and our taxes pay them to do the things that need doing.

Like we're talking about schools and the police and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, medical. So it would just change it to the power comes back to us. If they're not doing the job correctly, we find someone else.

And when you're contracting for things, rather than it. Sorry, anyone who thinks that we don't have corruption in this country, it's everywhere. You don't have that corruption because you have an open ledger.

So when the roads are being built or whether there's a government contract for a train or whatever it is, there's not somebody making the money on the back end. You have that specific job that needs doing put out to tender.

And any business can say, look, we'll do it. Here's our agreement. We promise to do it in this amount of days. Every day that we go over, we lose a percentage of this because it's inconvenient for you.

We promise to use sustainable materials or whatever it is. People vote on this. Go for whichever is the cheapest option. I heard recently, I can't remember where I heard it now. I'll try and link it in the show notes.

The US military were paying something like $2,000 for 30 milliliter face creams that you could buy in boots for $20. This is just mismanaged money because there's no, my opinion is they'll have someone on the back end who's pocketing the rest of that money.

And I used to work within the NHS. It was an absolute nightmare. We used to have things like that. You'd look at these things and they're paying four grand for a set of blinds or something like that.

And you think, I know I can do this for a tenth of the money. And you think, well, either they're just slapdash and then they know there's no consequence for them being so shit at their jobs that it doesn't matter.

Or they know, but they're putting them in for 40 quid and they're taking the other £3,960. They're just saying, we'll take that. So when you have this open ledger, they can't do that, which means there's more money to go around.

Anyone can dig through those transactions. We might have to see some good journalism finally, where instead of sensationalism and story, they're actually lifting through data and finding where problems are.

It would be nice. It would be nice. So there we are. This was our first session. I think we've touched on some pretty interesting subjects. From what we've talked about, it looks like maybe this can be a better money, most probably. Maybe it can give more access to more people in the world.

Maybe we can have a fairer society. Maybe it can help with mental health. Do you think we'll see that? I mean, what to do? But within the next 30 to 40 years, we're going to be looking at dying around that after that time.

Do you think we'll see a completely cashless non-feared society? Whether Bitcoin works or not, in 40 years, we will have a cashless society. It's every government's wet dream. No exit. Because cash can't retract. Digital cash.

And what happens when there's a run on the banks? There's no ATMs. There's no money. There's no cash. You can't take it out. What happens when they hyperinflate your money? What do you do?

Nothing. You can't do anything. You're hostage. So I think whether we have Bitcoin or not, we're going cashless. I hope we have Bitcoin because then our cashless society, rather than being run by tyrannical governments and everything we do and say and everything else is watched and controlled.

Rather than that, we have freedom. I think it's going to take another 10 years before people really wake up to this. However, we've got some real problems. I think this could accelerate the adoption of Bitcoin because people trust governments less than they ever have.

If you look at any charts, people trust governments less than they've ever had. They trust banks less than they ever had. We have more and more fighting and more and more polarizing views by governments.

We have all sorts of issues that it doesn't look like going to get resolved, like the global warming or the rest of it. I think if we have this recession and if it's bad, which looks like it will be, this might be the time where people wake up because we're saying for someone to change, they have to be forced.

Well, when they go to their bank and try and pull money out and they say no, and when their house is worth 30% less, 40% less than it was, and all their savings that they thought was their retirement money, they put in the stock market, it's gone to zero or not zero, but you know,

it's dropped heavily. I think those people are going to be pretty angry. They're going to think that, yeah, maybe if there is another option, maybe I'll switch to that. And at the same time, as all these currencies are hyper-inflating and everyone's in shit, the people who own Bitcoin are going to be doing very well,

and as one currency drops, the other goes up, you'll look at two charts and you'll say, what the fuck am I doing, only pounds? I mean, literally not owning Bitcoin. I know, I've already knew that I'm going to store some money, I've got some money stored in Bitcoin, but not huge amounts.

Definitely, I've got some money coming and I'm going to-- I'm going to send some, I'll buy it. Or I'll go, it's my retirement. You got me worried that my pension is not going to be coming.

So I'm going to be storing some money in Bitcoin. I'm also going to be looking into one of these cards where you have a Bitcoin wallet that links to a Visa debit card, so that at the end of every month, when I've paid off my cash, fiat money things and I've got money left over, that goes into my Bitcoin current account.

So it's not necessarily in a savings account that I'm sitting on in a super secure way. It's slightly less secure, but it's in Bitcoin. So that if it does crash, then I've still got that money I'm holding at the time.

So I've got my savings in Bitcoin, but also my general holding money is in Bitcoin. Store your wealth in Bitcoin, use whatever's the worst money to spend. The worst money is the thing that's devaluing, so pounds.

And use the best money, which is generally, over time, going up and becoming more and more scarce. Use that to save. This is going to become more and more obvious to people, especially when they have to.

When money breaks and really breaks, they're going to see that this was all an illusion. No one knew what they were doing and the ones who did know what they were doing and not doing it in your interest.

I think people are going to look at this and they're going to say, "Well, do I trust maths and physics to control my money? Or do I trust a load of probably corrupts, if not certainly morally corrupt people, to tweak and just make decisions on the fly and something goes wrong?"

"Oh, well, you know, tweak this and change that and it never works." I think that when they realize that this is pre-programmed and they know exactly what their value is going to be, exactly what the inflation rate is going to be for businesses and everything, it's so much easier to forecast.

I just think it's better money. It's going to become more and more obvious over time. And yeah, I do think in our lifetime, we are going to see these currencies trend towards zero and Bitcoin become the world reserve currency.

I hope so. If it can solve the things we've talked about today, sorry, this has been a bit all over the place. People are listening. It's just difficult. Diverse topic, isn't it? Because it threads.

We don't realize how big money touches everything. Money, literally, as you say, makes the world go around. And that's the thing that I think is the take-home message from this. Bitcoin isn't just another type of money.

It's not dollars, pounds, Bitcoin. It's a way in which we take away the middleman. You are a bank. Everyone is a bank. There is no bank. Swiss bank. Yeah. Thanks, everyone, for listening.

Well, we hope you listen again. Thanks very much.