BIT BUY BIT PODCAST EP04 Crypto Tony

Joining me today, I have a very special guest. He's actually the person who got me into this trouble in the first place. Without Anthony, I would probably not be sat here today. When we first sat down, I was very, very much involved in my art painting all day, every day.

Couldn't think about anything else. I saw a Facebook message at the time from Anthony talking about Bitcoin. I'd heard of it a couple of times before, but really had any idea what it was.

Anthony's quite a nerdy, techy, weird bloke. Thank you for that. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to reach out to him. We sat down, had dinner, and I walked away from there. It was about two years ago now, and I haven't looked back.

So Anthony, thanks for that. No problems. It doesn't sound like you're going to leave any time soon in this space. I don't think so. Yeah, deep in the rabbit hole. So what was it that got you involved?

Because a lot of people have heard about it, but almost nobody understands it. I agree. And when I sat down with you, a lot of what you said made sense on a really basic level. And it took me another six months for it to really click.

And then it's taken another year and a half for it to solidify. And for me to be, it really is. I'm fascinated. So thank you and not thank you. You'll thank me later. So how I got into it is, I get a similar to Max.

I mean, it's a very, very long journey, and it's not an easy journey. And thankfully, because my characteristics, I'm quite a compulsive and an obsessive person. So why not find their subjects very interesting?

I like to read everything and everything and watch anything and listen to anything. And it took me ages to fully, fully understand it. And I think, I don't think there's a simple answer to people understanding it.

I think you generally have to have your own personal experience with it. Try and understand it, even if it's just reading one article or watching one YouTuber day or whatever. I mean, I will one stage was watching and reading like 20, 30 articles a day, countless hours, podcasts. And I finally just started to click.

But how I got into it was my girlfriend's friend at the time was working for a very big company and quit his job to work on a company called Coinbase, which is now the largest Bitcoin exchange in the world.

So he would come to these social gatherings and I'd always ask him what he did. And he mentioned Bitcoin numerous times as a Bitcoin exchange, but never really understood what Bitcoin was.

So I'd always ask him like really stupid questions now, looking back. Examples? Just like standard questions, what is Bitcoin? And he would explain to me and I didn't really understand it.

So he would explain it to me like, oh, it's just decentralized form of money. And I'd be like, okay, because you just, you know, I barely know him. I'm just being polite. I don't want to go in too deep with him.

And you know, I'd just say, oh, yeah, naughty head, yeah, yeah, cool, yeah, yeah. But not really fully understanding the concept of it and it's place in the world. But the guy was super smart, very well educated.

And I was like, well, he can't be an idiot. I mean, he clearly knows something I don't know. But yeah, we would have a few social gatherings. And then one of my friends, uni friends, he was really into Ethereum at the time.

And obviously I knew it was a cryptocurrency, but didn't really understand what it was. He obviously made a fair amount of money out of it. And he said, and then one day he just sat me down and said, this is how he can get involved.

He just set me up a wallet, a software wallet. Thomas got a Coinbase. He used his referral link. And that was my initial entry into the space. And then, but I didn't really understand what I was buying.

So you would say, buy this, buy this, buy this, buy this. And most of them were ults and love them and our worth zero. But it was a good experience just because sometimes you need skin in the game.

Otherwise you won't really understand it. Or if it doesn't hurt you, you're not going to understand why it hurt you. So this was, unfortunately, I got in early enough where I rode that peak from Bitcoin from, it was from four to 20,000. So I experienced a bull market.

And yeah, it's crazy. A bull market, you mean, the percentage you're making was like thousands and thousands of percents unheard of in the stock market or any market. So, but I also experienced a very long bear market.

And in hindsight, I should have known better. And I should have just sold it all at the top. And at the time, I didn't own a single Bitcoin. Because everyone said, oh, this is going to be the next Bitcoin.

This is, but in truth and honesty, there's nothing that's been better or bigger than Bitcoin. Bitcoin is Bitcoin. And it took me a while to understand that. So first, I had to really understand what cryptocurrencies was.

And then I understood that Bitcoin was the only real value cryptocurrency. I mean, I'm not a Bitcoin maximalist like Max is. I do believe in other cryptocurrencies, but I do fundamentally believe that Bitcoin, if it is going to be motley like money, Bitcoin has the best opportunity to become money out of any of the other olds.

Yeah, I would say I'm a maximalist. But I'm open to the idea of something else. I'm never going to just close my mind completely and say nothing else is ever going to be useful. But like you said, when it comes to money, it's Bitcoin.

Like definitely. But if someone comes up with another use case for a blockchain, potentially it can be something else. But right now, I just don't see it. If someone shows me something and can prove itself, then great.

But it does seem, it took me a load of time to get to that stage as well. I bought all the olds like it's not like I came in. Well, that's all we did in the beginning. Yeah, about 20 years.

I remember sitting down with you and I remember. Let's do a phone. I'm five, 20 year olds. We bought like 20 year olds. They're all worthless now. They're absolutely worthless. And then I think I paid 20 quid for all of yours.

I sold them for Bitcoin. Yeah, so I really lost one over there. But it took like you say, you have to get burned. Yeah. And I had to go through that pain. And I was watching all the YouTube videos and there was all these Lambo boys just like telling you about these different olds.

Yeah. And until I understood the fundamentals, then I was like, "Oh, well, it's just like stocks." And I just thought, "Oh, it's just like penny stocks." But once I understood, well, this is competing to be global money.

That's when I was like, "Ah, okay, okay, I see, I understand this now." But it does take that time. But you also have to, when people ask me now what Bitcoin is, I always ask them, "You need to know what money is first before you ask me what Bitcoin is."

Because unfortunately, I don't think many people have had that education of really questioning money. You can't study money. Money is one of those things that you're almost like predetermined or by your parents.

This is a way of exchanging value. But you never question it. You just, you just, you adopt it and you accept it. But I don't think anyone's really questioned money. So when I questioned my friends, like, what money is, I don't think I've ever come across a credible answer to what money is.

There was a stumble about going, "Oh, it's money. I've used it. I can use it. It's been existence from the dawn of time." And that's their answer. And it is an answer. But I don't think it's an answer with any form of substance.

Yeah, absolutely. A lot of people ask me, especially when there's like a little bit of a rise in price, no one gives some shit normally. Yeah. But when there's a little bit of rise in price and people ask me about it, that is the first thing I will try and go to is, right, what is money?

Yeah. How does it work? Yeah. Why is it, you know, go through that with them. And very, very quickly, you realize even people who are deep in finance, like people who work in banks, traders, people who understand, or should understand finance, they understand finance, but they don't understand money.

Yeah. So they understand how to like navigate around within the financial system. 100%, yeah. For sure. And then this is a perfect example. My, my, the half is, is in finance. She works in one of the biggest banks in the world.

Yeah. And even she didn't really understand what money was. I mean, she knew how to play the financial game, but if you actually ask her what money is, I mean, even her, she would find very difficult answer, answer.

And she really knows her shit. And she knows, yeah. Like she really does, yeah. Yeah. And that's where that, and so, so then the next question people, or one of the next questions people ask.

Well, you're telling me that you think there can be this rise of 100, 100 X or 1,000 VEX from here in the next 10 or 20 years. How can that be possible? Because if it's so good, then everyone would know.

And my answer is that's where the information asymmetry is. Because no one understands what money is, it means that there's a tiny, tiny percentage of people who could possibly understand why Bitcoin's important.

And then there's an even smaller group from that that would actually have had the time to invest and look into what Bitcoin is. Yeah. And then you have to understand the technical side there.

Yeah. And you have to understand the geopolitics. Yeah. So the amount of people who understand this is tiny. And that's why there's the upside. Yeah. Huge upside, yeah. That's why, like, in my opinion, I think yours as well.

There's nothing on this planet that has this upside. I agree. I've not come across anything remotely. I mean, this is probably the single best bet in history. I mean, you look at the traditional stocks markets.

I think we'll overdo a correction. You look at the history of financial markets. Recessions have been every five to 10 years, typically. And we have now, well, since 2008, we have so experienced recession.

And I personally believe that Bitcoin will be probably the single best... Well, it already has a single best performing asset. But I think it will perform even better during a recession because it is not correlated to the monetary system, which has tremendous value.

Yeah. It's, like I said earlier, it's taken over my brain, completely. Oh, 100%, yeah. Because, um, weirdly, like I said before, like Anthony, you're much more, like, tech-y. Yeah. Well, not anymore.

Like, you've said... No, I'm really into my tech. I've always been fascinated by tech. Like, I've got... And I'm one of the biggest thing, which is why I found digital currency fascinating is that I'm really into gaming.

So having a, like, I get digital currency, I completely get it. I'm like, I've probably spent, yeah, I spent hours on games. And I spend real money to get in-game currency, to get the, like, latest skins, latest weapons, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

So I completely understand, like, digital currency, which is why I think it was probably a lot easier for me to understand digital, to understand cryptocurrencies. But I think it's, you know, I think we're getting there.

I mean, me personally, I don't ever carry cash anymore. I think all of my transactions are now digital. See, that's where we're complete offices. Yeah. And that's weird, so you understood it because of, well, lots of reasons, but a lot of it, because you are more tech in you, you are into a game on that sort of stuff.

Yeah. Whereas for me, you have always laughed at me because I hate your cards. I only believe in cash. Yeah. And I have a massive distrust of everything. Yeah. So people always take the piss out of me for that.

Even before Bitcoin, I was banging on to everyone saying, we cannot get rid of cash. It's a real problem. Like, this is so stupid to get rid of cash. But I didn't know about Bitcoin. But weirdly, what made it click for me was, I was like, oh, this is what I've been waiting for.

Yeah. What I've been ranting about for the last five years. Yeah. It's now here. And that's Bitcoin is digital cash. So I didn't understand the tech side. And I needed Anthony because, remember when you first spoke to me, I was like, look, mate, I'm really, really busy.

I'm doing my art. I was never really out of the studio. I said, look, can you just invest in money for me? Because I haven't had time heavily involved in property again. So like, whatever time I wasn't in the studio, I was in the property.

So I needed you to show me the technical side. And it is really a horrible interface. Yeah. Like sending that first transaction. I was shitting once. Yeah. Not that horrible. Yeah. And I still go through the same experience.

Well, I have to double check. They have to look at the blockchains, whether they've been verified or not. Yeah, it's not, and it can be a better process. And I think it will get there. It will get there.

For sure. It will get there. It already has. From when I started to now, I mean, I've spent so much time, actually, looking at the technical side now. Yeah. I've got much more into it. But from when I first did it, copying a private keys and I'm sending that across.

And you're waiting for a confirmation. And one thing is wrong. You lose all your money. And that's really stressful. But now it is getting easier. There's so many good wallets, so many good exchanges.

There's lots of decentralized exchanges that are much better. Yeah. You use this, yeah. No, something I've never really got into. Yeah. I've, yeah. Coinbase is my main thing. Yeah. But yeah, I completely see the value in that.

And the lightning network, everything that's happening. Yeah. The second is scaling solutions. It's all coming. And that will, I mean, that's, I guess, the biggest problem is people think that, oh, I can't spend the Bitcoin.

You know, and, and the thing is, there's a thing called Gresham's Law and money over time. So it's what is good money. And it's, for example, if I gave you what, if I said, here's a, here's a, here's a bath gold or bath silver.

And there were other, the exact same value, which one would you use to spend by a piece of clothing? And you used one as the worst. Exactly. So exactly. Exactly. The bad money it chases out.

Correct. Correct. So that's, which is why no one's spending. Bitcoin, because people who buy Bitcoin, generally believe in Bitcoin. So for me, I would never spend Bitcoin until it reaches that sort of threshold price, which I don't think is any time soon, but it will, it will happen.

It will take time. But yeah, I would most definitely spend cash because cash loses money. Yeah. Bitcoin ascends money. So the only, only chart you really need to look at is the US dollar versus the Bitcoin.

And you will see that dollar is losing value to Bitcoin. And why would I hold cash when I can hold Bitcoin? You have to zoom out though. Yeah. And that's, that's another problem. It's like people will flick on the chart and they'll be like, they'll look at five and a chart or 15 million chart or things like that.

Yeah. And then it doesn't make sense. But if you look at it across since inception, you know, it's an obvious clear pattern. Oh, yeah. It is like, it's clear as day. Yeah. Then that's the, that's the whole thing.

It's like a lot of this stuff is about zooming out, isn't it? It's zooming out of not just the charts, but zooming out and looking at the whole world, geopolitically. What's going on? What are the trends?

Yeah. And like you said, older generations, and even to me, naturally, other than technically, didn't make them a sense because I'm not into gaming and I'm not used to that sort of stuff.

Mm. But for the generation. Oh, coming. Yeah. That's, they're, they're living on Fortnite. A hundred percent. A little more of this, all the time. Yeah, yeah, 100 percent. They, they will be used to digital native currencies.

Yeah. And they'll probably think that is worth more money than, their money itself because they are in the world of Fortnite. They're used to it. Yeah. They're used to it. So did you think that's where, because I've almost not given up, but when I, for the first six months, year, I was trying to talk to every single person about this.

Yeah. And I was just like, stressing, guys, I don't think you understand. Yeah. What I'm telling you, even if you don't invest in this, understand what's going to happen to the stock market.

Yeah, 100 percent. Yeah. But no one cares. No one understands. They don't want to know. They don't want to know. And I've sort of given up, like, especially, especially with people I've tried with a few times, I now just think, you know what, just, I'm going to let you just, like, if you're the ignorant, younger generation.

Yeah. I think they're going to take this, like, duck's to water. I agree. It's just going to be an end. I agree. And they're, they're the ones coming into the workforce now. I agree. What does it take to get this?

Because gaming, I think, you're right. That's going to make this mainstream. Yeah. What does it take? Because obviously, these, like, four, nine, and these sort of games, they're probably not going to do it.

Certainly, yeah. Yeah. Because they've got a good setup. They sell everything in there. Is there going to be another game that's going to come in? And you're just going to have Bitcoin as the tokens.

I'll tell you what made me think of it. Was that ready player one? Yeah. When I was ready player one, I just went, "That's exactly what it's going to happen." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, that's exactly, yeah, yeah.

And those coins are going to be satoshis. And that's happening. Yeah, I can see that. It's all short. I can see that. I can't see how it won. Especially with Lightning Network. That is happening.

It's got, like, technically it's possible to build it within a game. And you've got the best money there's ever been. Yeah. Backing it in. Yeah. And it's the most secure money there's ever been.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So now that it's technically possible, I always say, like, I was five, 10 years away. But maybe it's not, like, not for games. Yeah. I think there will be a curve, a learning curve.

Unfortunately, I mean, all these systems, for example, gaming, you know, unfortunately people paid in cash. And they buy their software in cash, their invoices, you know, in cash, their bills are in cash.

So... When do you say that? You mean, like, that would curve. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's not, it's not, they don't pay their stuff in Bitcoin. So that will take time. But unless that changes, I can't see the digital currency being Bitcoin because of, because it fluctuates a lot Bitcoin.

Yeah, yeah. So it's not a stable currency, but that will come. And I think within 10 years, it will definitely stabilize. Because once it hits six figures, you know, it's, it's, it's very difficult for it to move, double that, double that.

It'll, it'll take more time to move it. So at that point, it becomes stable. And that's probably when, when you'll probably see more people getting paid in Bitcoin, invoices being paid in Bitcoin.

And that's when you'll start seeing their products being Bitcoin. It's going to be a while. It will be a while. Like you're saying, the whole of the, I mean, the whole of the market cap of Bitcoin is like a hundred billion.

Oh, it's tiny, yeah, it's tiny, like obviously that's a lot of money. But it is like in relative terms. Oh, yes. That is absolutely a drop. Yeah. Have you ever seen that in charge of how it compares to the stock markets, derivatives, real estate?

It is tiny, tiny, tiny, like, yeah, it's, and, you know, which is why I love it because there's so much upside. And what I love about it is that you have to compare Bitcoin to gold because fundamentally gold was backed, well, money was backed by gold.

Yeah, until 1970 is 171. Yeah, yeah. And gold's market cap is, I believe, is a trillion from memory. So, you know, I personally believe that Bitcoin is gold 2.0. It can do everything that gold can do except for being physical, which I don't, which I think is fine because we're moving into digital world where digital

things have value just because it's not physical. Does it mean it has no value? But it also, you know, traditionally gold, people who store gold, a lot of them, a lot of the people who store gold are not trusting their governments.

Mm-hmm. And they didn't trust the current financial system. So they would hold their gold and hide it and all the rest of it, which is great because gold doesn't degrade. It doesn't rust.

Yeah. And it has value pretty much any way you go. Oh, 100% yeah. And it's a long history. Yeah. You can, you can get rid of gold if you need to. Mm-hmm. But there are a lot of benefits with Bitcoin that gold just doesn't have.

I agree. No, it's not physical. But it's scarcer. Yeah. Yeah. And it's more divisible. Yeah. Yeah. It's more fungible. And you can't email gold. No. Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it costs much more to move gold.

100%. And it costs a lot of money to verify if gold is real. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. You cut is thousands of that. And it's not censorship resistant. Yeah. So for all those reasons, like, to me, like, there's this quote.

You know, Peter Schiff, who's always on Twitter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I troll him. I troll him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He annoys me now. Because I now think that he actually understands. But he has a business that will round gold.

Of course, yeah. He can't not understand. Of course. And he makes his money being a Bitcoin troll. Yeah. And it just, but he's like, neural rubini or that guy is ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because it was ridiculous, like, I just can't even watch him. Any more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For so many reasons, it is better. The percent of what love about it is, like, you know, if I want to try, if I want, if I had 100 million, you know, I could transfer 100 million pounds in my brain, all I had to remember is my keys.

Yeah. And that is a powerful, powerful thing. It's like magic. I mean, how are you going to transfer 100 million in gold? In gold. Impossible. Yeah. On your own? Impossible. Yeah, impossible.

Get that, take that through the airport. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know what I mean, yeah. You'll be in prison so quickly. Yeah, exactly. Where's it come from? Yeah, you can, you can do that.

And then there's the security aspect of it as well. It's like you can place the storage security around it. And with Bitcoin, you can open unlimited wallets for free. Yeah. Like to put it into perspective of how hard it is for someone to crack or hack one of those wallets.

You have to take the entire globe and you split it into boxes of 1 millimeter by 1 millimeter all across the entire globe. And now to, perhaps, just one wallet would mean that you would have to guess in sequence three boxes that someone has chosen at random.

Yeah. And you'd have to choose them in perfect sequence. Yeah. So that just shows quite how secure this is. And you don't have to have one. You can have hundreds or thousands or millions.

And you can split it as many times as you want. So you can have better security for free than any bank or any government on the planet. That's mad. Yeah. That's crazy. I know. And it's amazing.

It's amazing how this person discovered. It's a kudos to him. Yeah, yeah. We do, like on previous episodes, I had Karen on just to talk about. We sort of brushed and we talked briefly about Satoshi.

But do you have any theories on it? Of who he is? Well, it really matters. But I don't think it matters. But I think kind of who he is. But I don't want to guess. And nor do I really care.

I think the fact he is an ominous is amazing. I mean, you look at what happens to Libra. You know, everyone knows Facebook's behind it. And if the government want to stop it, they'll go straight to Microsoft Word and say, we're stopping this.

Who are you going to call for Bitcoin? Yeah. No one. Who do you think? How? Oh, what do you mean? How? How? Well done. If you have to guess, like, no one knows. I think it's a guy, but I can't remember the guy's name.

He craved right, he's suing this guy. He's claiming. He craved right, he's suing everyone. No, he doesn't know. He's a great writer. Yeah. Fuck with it. Who pretends to be a Satoshi. And he's got this shitty scam coin called VSV.

Yeah. And he's one of the most stupid people I've ever heard. Toxic to a community, yeah. Toxic. And not only that, he dresses like clown. I've never seen anything like it. He's the weirdest guy.

Yeah. And he just goes around suing people with this other idiot, sort of slash pedophile, Calvin Air. Oh, yeah. And suing everyone with his money. And with this weird little Jimmy the Snake, the little, their lawyer, Jimmy, I can't remember his name, but weird, weird people.

So you think it's someone who's suing? He's suing. I think, who he's subsequently, he's dead now. Right, OK. But he's suing someone who's dead. Oh, he's now dead. Yeah, he's now dead, yeah.

Oh, I can't remember the guy's name. I'll dig it up. I'll dig it up. But that's why I think it is. But I had a weird thought. It might be how. Really? It's the first person to have a rumbit coin.

OK. So like, if I was Satoshi and I wanted to like, this is almost the biggest double bluff, isn't it? Yeah, of course. Run it as yourself. And then he was dying. Yeah, yeah. He was dying.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's loads of conspiracy theories around it. And some people think he's British. If you looked at any of his earlier, earlier forums, he'd always use the word like bloody, etc., etc., which is quite an English terminology.

And the times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the most of European. Some people claim it. Some sort of Asian conglomerate of things that were all working together. Yeah, so Satoshi. So Samsung.

Is the, and then Toshi will be Toshiba and Nakamoto, will be Nakamoto Industries and then Motors, Motorola. But I don't think that's ridiculous. It's just a coincidence more than anything.

I mean, like I said, it doesn't really matter, but it is fascinating. Whoever Satoshi was. Yeah. And just because you don't know who it is, it doesn't make it not credible. Like it makes it more credible.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. Yeah, I mean, who invented the tyre? Who invented the wheel? Who invented the pencil, you know? No one remembers. But everyone uses it. That's true.

Yeah. It means it's more secure. Yeah. It means it can't ever be centralized. Yeah. Which is brilliant. I'd just like to know, just because whoever's done this, if it plays out the way that I think we both see it.

He needs the Nobel Prize piece prize. Oh, 100%. He needs more than that. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Whoever's done this really has a shot at changing the world. Like in ways that they've just- I agree.

They've followed the mind. I think the biggest, so you see all these protests happening all around the world. I'm- whether it's environmentalists, you know, people aren't happy about their political parties, or whatever it is.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to money. Always. Always. It just comes down to money. That was the last podcast. Yeah. That was exactly what I'm talking about. Protest. It always comes down to money.

Yeah, because there's no transparency on money. They never win. Yeah. These people are incredibly passionate about what they're- They're cause, which is, right. Flee, or so, yeah, yeah. But you can't fix any of these issues unless you fix money.

Absolutely. So money's power. Exactly. And Bitcoin is the solution, but people can't see it. They just can't see it. They're just- I've sat with, you know, Alice. A dental. Yeah. So one of my closest people in my life, I absolutely love her to pieces.

And she's really doing her best to try and help with all this fun. Change stuff. And, like, I respect her so much being it. She is putting so much effort in and she really cares. And- But I'm trying to explain to her and say, if you want to make real change, if you want to force the government to make these changes,

you need to take your money out of the system. Because that's so much more impactful. And you have millions of people protesting in the land. You have 21 million coins. How many people does it take to buy Bitcoin and exit the system to make this thing move like that?

And then there's a snowball effect. Oh, 100%, yeah. And as soon as it happens, these governments don't have any power. Yeah. And as soon as they don't have any power, they'll ask their power back.

Yeah. And then we're in the driving seat. Yeah. So it's okay. If you want to do X, Y and Z, it's fine. You listen to our terms and conditions. Yeah. We want to control back. Yeah. You stop fucking about.

Yeah. You know, whatever it is that you're protesting about. Yeah. You suddenly have power. Yeah. And this is something that can happen in, it's not, oh, it's going to take 100 years of fighting, which would never win any way because of protest.

I respect the people who do it, but it's never going to work. Yeah. They're not in the driving seat. Yeah. They have no control. This could happen. Like, if everyone actually teamed together, this could happen in months.

Yeah. It could be a complete flip in months. Yeah. And that's the main reason I've started this podcast is, well, there's a few reasons. One, I'm trying not to talk so much about it in my normal life because everyone just thinks you're a complete living the tick.

Um, people just get bored with it. Yeah. And it's basically a waste of breath. Yeah. So that's one. But I need, I feel that it's important to do it. So I'm putting it out there. And if someone finds it and I help someone then grave.

But the main reason is I had a fear of cash being eradicated before. And I have a massive fear and a complete mistrusting government. Mm-hmm. And always have. Yeah, a fair number. From day one.

Yeah. Always been that way. So I truly believe this can make changes. And I'm trying to get this information out there. But it's so hard. It is so hard. To get people to understand it. Yeah.

I've tried some of these different ways to frame it. Yeah. I've tried scaring people. Yeah. A few of the articles I've written recently are basically saying, if you want George or Wells 1984, just keep doing what you're doing for a few years.

Yeah. Basically, that doesn't work. Yeah. I've tried to sort of explaining what money is. That doesn't work. Yeah. I think humans are intrinsically quite reactive. Yeah. In life in general.

And maybe, you know, the irony of this whole thing is everyone knows I love Bitcoin. I'm known as crypto attorney. They know I love Bitcoin. Yeah. And the saddest thing is, when we do hear recession and when Bitcoin does hit six figures, all these people who knew I knew about Bitcoin will then start asking about Bitcoin

and wants to know about Bitcoin. And that point, yes, there is still some upside. But you could have had that upside when Bitcoin was 3,000. You know, it would have been a much bigger upside.

But each time, I mean, I've tried, no one listens. I mean, because I love my girlfriend. I mean, she's just about understood it. How long has that taken? Oh, wow. I mean, she's a banker and she's taken a while.

But now she understands it. But that's only because, like, sometimes we have long journeys, you know, we'd listen to really our long podcast. And the people on these podcast are not idiots.

I mean, like, well, Paul is ex-Goldman Sachs. You know, all these big bankers, they're already in it. A lot of them aren't pro guys. Yeah, they're already in it. They get it. I just keep...

I reckon a lot of them just keep quiet. Oh, 100%. It's a sign of a protest. You get so much shit through it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, some banks are saying employees are not allowed to buy it because they're generally threatened by the existence of Bitcoin.

Because anyone who truly understands it knows that, well, they won't have a job if Bitcoin takes off. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, I know. And that you get, even if you're not going to lose, your job, people lose respect for you.

Because it's still this fringe, like, the view of, from most people is like, "Ah, this is like, drug dealers." Yeah, which is the most pathetic argument. It's, yeah. There's like anyone who says like, "Oh, well, it's only useful money laundering and drugs."

And I'm like, "Uh, so does cash." Yeah. If anything's exclusive. Yeah, yeah, and like cash is way bigger. I mean, and it's actually cash is still the better form. So if you want to money laundering, cash is much better for money laundering and buying drugs.

Because I think almost every criminal who's money laundering or bought drugs with Bitcoin have been called. That's trackable. It's trackable. Well, it's pseudo-anomalous. But I mean, yeah, if they know where your IPs link to, they'll find you.

If you want to money laundering, use HSBC. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's why it was a big drug law system. The cartels they were using. They laundered, yeah. You said you'd speak to them on cash.

And that's the way to do it. But so that seems to be the argument. And even like, so I've tried it in an approach of, I'm saying like, especially with property investors who I used to be involved with.

And I'm saying like, because I thought they would get it. They laugh at it. But I've tried the other approach, which was actually, was from Popsiness and the Pomp Show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anthony Poppliano. I don't really listen to it that much now, because it's a little bit shit coiny. But what I found was quite good. What he said was, he was advising people, look, just allocate 1% of your portfolio.

If you do, over time, the difference, just having 1% allocation to Bitcoin to your portfolio is unbelievable upside. And the downside is 1%. Yeah, exactly. So I've tried that with people.

Even that, they view as like, so reckless. And I'm saying like, this is an uncorrelated asset. It's like having import is absolute holy grail for an investor. Yeah, they can't get it. No, they can't get it up.

And I generally think that's, yeah. Change or is it happening? It will change, but I think when I was in the coin. Yeah, it will change when it's too late, unfortunately. That's not too late for those.

No, even 100,000. But the thing is the upside is less. Yeah, that's the problem. The upside now is like, you can go from what's currently what? Seven, you know, seven to hundreds is a big upside, but from 100 to 200, that's only a 2x.

It's not that impressive. Yeah, but yeah, it's a hard one. But then, so then I've tried with the, you know, rather than saying, oh, look at this as an investment, like you said, this is a silent protest.

And it is so powerful. I've tried to, to the, to the people who are protesting and the people who aren't happy. So many people are not happy, right? Yeah, of course. You've only got a flick on the TV and you just look at the clowns.

Yeah, especially now, like a random election time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, random election time, you're like, right? Everyone's unhappy, yeah. Everyone's unhappy. Everyone's unhappy. Processing about whatever, yeah, yeah.

Everyone has their different views. Yeah. And, and like, you've got the choice of, what are you voting for? Oh, yeah, you do it. And this is always, it's always the same, it's always the same political cycle, you know.

Yeah. And nothing ever changes. Yeah. And everyone's unhappy. And everyone's stressing and they're saying, oh, we just want to change. But when it's presented, it's not, it's not seen as an option.

Yeah. And I think one of the reasons why people are, you know, are protesting is because the working class, you know, they can't afford wealth managers. They have some understanding of the stock market, but probably their family comes first.

So putting food to a table is, take priority then investing, which I get. But the thing is, there's a thing called inflation. And unless your money in your bank account is performing better than inflation, you are losing money in real terms.

And the sooner people realize that, then they need to understand that there is an alternative to that system. And that is Bitcoin. Although it doesn't look like in a short-term basis, because it's so volatile, it goes ups and downs, ups and downs, ups and downs.

In the long run. Long-term investing. It's a good store of value. Yeah. And, you know, it's only going one way. And that's up. Yeah. Yeah, massive. Yeah. And I think also people are so short-sighted.

They're like, they literally only look at a six-month chart. And they're like, "Oh, right." I was like, "Oh, right." So that's it. Yeah, you see that. Oh, it's not. Yeah, it came from 20,000 to 3,000.

Ah, it's awful. It's a really bad investment. Stay clear. Stay clear. And they're like... Zoom out. Yeah, it got zoom out, yeah. And look at the inception. I mean, it went from zero to 20,000.

It is incredible. It's phenomenal. Yeah. What was the first payment was for the pizzas. Laslo something. Yeah. It sent 10,000 bitcoins to for one pizza. And that's worth 44 million or whatever it is now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, crazy. So the first sale was two dominoes pizzas. Yeah. It was the first time it was ever traded. Yeah. So, yeah, $44 million for two... And they were dominoes as well. It was just one of the worst pizzas.

Yeah. Yeah. If you'd have gone for... I quite like a Pizza Express. Yeah. Or, you know, there's one round the corner from you that's quite a good nice little property. Oh, yeah, local, yeah.

A little local one. Yeah. If it was one of those, you'd go... Yeah. Well, it's dominoes. It's dominoes too. Yeah, yeah. For something to imagine. But then you needed that because that's opened up.

Yeah, exactly. It's the first transaction. But, you know, the rise of this thing, I think that is another thing where people say, oh, well, you know, everyone who... Their view is too late.

Yeah. It's not too late. Everyone thinks it's too late. It's not too late. I've heard from people who've been in for seven, eight years. Yeah. They thought it was too late. Yeah. Then six years, they thought it was too late.

Yeah. And then four years ago, they thought it was too late. Yeah, exactly. And when I got in, I thought it was too late. Yeah, exactly. And I think it will be like that for the next 20 years.

Mm-hmm. Because this thing is designed to just pump for the other. Yeah. That's how it's designed. Yeah. On purpose. Yeah. And I think the harvings were actually purposely, because a lot of people say, "Oh, well, the volatility around these harvings is not a good thing."

Well, I actually think it was designed that way, because as the supply then cuts in harmony, and the amount of demand is larger, it suddenly has this supply shock. And then the price shoots through the root.

Yeah. And as that happens, that's when people go, "Oh, yeah." They see it moving. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it's on CNBC, and all the, you know, you don't know how to talk show. Yeah. And then everyone else piles into it.

Yeah. So that's why you happen to have the harabolic moves. I agree. And I think the next parabolic move will be even bigger, because I think the infrastructure now is so much better than four years ago, or two years ago, it's incredible.

You see, like, you know, the owner of the New York Stop Exchange, I built this thing called BAT. Have you seen the volume done by it? It's great. It's very... The first name was really disappointing.

Yeah. First name was very disappointing. But once it goes down, the volume clearly, the institutions are buying it. It's the volume on this thing. Yeah, when it first launched, nothing, and it has been steadily growing.

Yeah. Cash apps involved, which is the biggest, I think it's the biggest downloaded and used. It's bigger than Venmo now. Oh, the... The actuality, yeah. So, cash app. And they're taking 8% of all coins mined at the moment.

Just out there. One company. Wow. And we're coming up with about 200 days from a halving. So technically, then it's 16%. And then you've got BAT, and you've got all these other companies out of all.

And even from when I got involved with it, the amount of hardware wallet manufacturers tripled. And it's so much better. Yeah. The amount of decent exchanges. Yeah. And the amount of big players who are stepping in, has more than like the tenfold.

And then we've got Lightning Network, and we've all the infrastructure. Have you seen that SAP, Jack Mallers. So there's this guy, he's the only young guy, but like... Oh, is that why he did that YouTube?

How could that translation win? I didn't know how to send it to you. I think he did, yeah. He's onboarding straight into Lightning. So he's like... Yeah, I've seen it straight onto something.

Yeah, I've seen it, yeah. Don't know your channel management for you. When I first got into this, Lightning wasn't even started. I remember watching the amount of Lightning nodes that had sprung up, and it was in like the tens.

Yeah. And now it's exploded, like it's in thousands. Yeah, it's growing, that's rapid, right? Yeah. And then you've got... How would you explain Lightning to your listeners? Because obviously it's quite A.

Yeah, so we sort of touched on it on a previous episode. But Lightning Network is what they call a second layer solution. And why do you believe that to be the solution rather than increasing the block size?

The reason is... So there's... With everything in life, there's trade-offs. That's just a simple pattern. Yeah. So the block size that we have, which is basically the amount of data that we store.

The story out. The transaction. What it does is it limits the amount of transactions that we can make per second. So a lot of people would argue, well, just increase the block size. The problem is, with that increase, every transaction that's sent is data that needs to be stored.

Yeah. Because that data needs to be stored on what we call nodes, someone who's on a full validating node, it pushes up the amount of data that you have to store. And at the moment, it's about 200 gig from the beginning of Bitcoin.

And then it goes back to 100 gig, which is manageable. Like, that's fine, you can run one at home, you can run it on a normal computer. If we increase the block size, that makes it very, very difficult to actually store the data, because it's like an exponential difference.

Yeah. And to be able to do the amount of transactions that we need to serve the whole world, we'd have to have a huge increase in the block size. Yeah. So rather than doing that... So the reason you wouldn't do that is if people don't run nodes, because the storage is too demanding, if they don't run nodes,

it means that the network is less decentralized. And what that does is it can be attacked more easily. Yeah. It's not a secure... Yeah. And that's really... I mean, without that, it's pointless.

Yeah, yeah, agreed with you. So that's why we've built this second layer solution. And the second layer solution that they've built so far, there's actually lots of them. It's not just that liquid and all that one.

But with lightning, it's a way to scale pretty much infinitely. Are your supposed visa, I think? Yeah, soon. In terms of transaction per second. Soon. Yeah. So on the blockchain, we can do seven transactions per second.

With lightning, it can be technically, it can be millions. Yeah. So... And it actually makes it more user friendly for a lot of people. Mm-hmm. Because people don't even really need to know that they're using a bit more.

And what it does is it settles back to the original chain. Yeah. So it makes it infinitely more efficient and fast. Like that video I said, like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is instant, yeah. It is absolutely instant.

You can set it up. So the same guy has set it up. So you can just blast through all these paywalls. So like, if you want to pay per article or pay, you know, pay pay for quick stuff. You can set parameters and say anything below this amount, just pay it.

And it's just abstracted in the background. So your internet browsing experience is seamless. Mm-hmm. Just right now, it's quite clunky. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Debit card details. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you're going to get all of them stolen. And they're all on the dark now. Yeah. Anyone who's listening, all your details. Yeah, yeah, or stored somewhere, yeah. They are available for sale on the dark now.

Mm-hmm. They're all stolen. Yeah. Every bank, everybody stores it. Whereas this nothing's stored. Like it's just amazing. Yeah. But I probably missed something there. How do you say that the line is available?

The problem is, you know, I do believe that we need second layer solutions for scaling. The problem is that with the block sides, I think it's two megabits, I think. The problem is like, what is enough?

Because if you scale it to 10 megabits, at that in a point in time, that will then become full. And then you need to propose 100 megabits. And that point you need-- Once you start, you need to start.

That's a problem. And if that is the case, then you have infinite amount of bitcoins, different bitcoins, like Bitcoin Quackash, who have proposed a 100 megabits. I think is there a block size?

It's block size, no one's running for me. Exactly. So that's the problem is, when is it enough? Which is why I fundamentally believe in second layer solutions, because you've kept to the original vision of Bitcoin, which I think is the correct vision.

And the second solution doesn't impact on the fundamentals of the original vision of Bitcoin. So yeah, I'm more for it. Yeah. And we need that, when you're talking about online gaming and all sorts of things, we have to have these solutions.

And there doesn't have to be one. There can be hundreds. There can be thousands, because it's a protocol you just build on top. Yeah, a software, yeah. And so it's open source. So anyone who's a software developer who has an idea, and they think, you know what, I'd like to scale this.

I'd like to do this. I'd like to change this. Yeah. Do it. Yeah. No one's stopping you. Yeah. You know, yeah. If you want to do it, you do it. Even if only you use it, valid. Yeah. If a million people use it, valid.

Yeah. There's no one telling you. There's no gatekeeper. And that's why, like, these things are growing so quick. Like, I feel like I blinked. And it is just in the last six months. Although the price movements haven't been one for, like, fundamentals are better.

I'm so much more confident now. Yeah, I agree. I agree effort. Like, I agree so much. I agree for them. And every time I see these new projects coming up, I'm just blown away by them. Yeah, but they're actually amazing.

Yeah. And you don't even need an instant connection to send bitcoins anymore. No. You can send them over. It's like, yeah, a block streamer doing that. This is crazy. Yeah. So basically, just saying, it can't be stopped.

No, it can't. It can't be stopped. Yeah. Blockstream got their satellite. Yeah. There's a few companies who are doing, like, mesh networking. Yeah. So you can send it like that. You can send it by emojis.

You can send it by text. I've seen that. Yeah. You can send it, yes. You can send it by text. Yeah. You can tweet it to people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Drop it. Of your wallet where you can just tweet it.

Yeah. There's a few, actually, who can tweet to it across. If you absolutely have to, you can send it, like, SOS signal. Yeah. So any medium, anywhere you want to send this-- Yeah, it's doable.

--is doable. Yeah. So to stop it, you would need to have one armed guard standing next to every citizen in the world all day, and then they'd need to switch with another armed guard to guard them all night, which obviously is impossible.

Yeah. Especially with no funding. Yeah. Because you now don't have any funds. Yeah. Everyone's using Bitcoin. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Came over. Yeah. It's just not happened yet. It's like-- Yeah.

--and countries are mostly all in debt. Yeah. When you look at the US national debt, it's like 22 trillion. It's ridiculous. One fifth in the national debt budget. It goes to paying off interest rates off that debt.

Yeah, yeah. It's not looking great. It's horrible. I wrote something the other day about, you know, there's this, like, OK boomer thing that's going around. And you have, like, all the people are slagging off millennials and basically saying, oh, yeah, yeah.

You're saying that's why they come and buy properties. Yeah. Well, I was trying to explain in the article the amount of debt that we have. Obviously, it has to be paid. Debt must be paid.

Of course, yeah. So what we've done is run up a credit card, or we, governors, have run up a massive credit card. Yeah. They've made houses unaffordable for the people of our generation. They've made everything that we want to call, basically, it's on finance.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Ownership is not really a thing anymore. Yeah. And if you do finally own a home, most people get, like, 10% mortgage. So you don't really own a home. Which is why you're now seeing, like, a co-ownership coming in.

You can now have, now, renting is the new thing, where you don't have ownership. So you've seen, like, co-living. Yeah. There's a thing now. Yeah, co-living. Yeah. So you don't have the ownership.

And then what's going to happen is, we're going to get passed over this credit card. They're going to say, do you want to pay that for us? We're going, hold on. We don't get free-schooling.

We don't get pensions. We don't get ownership of house. We don't get the benefit of all our assets rising in price, so that we can just basically do fund the entire. We're not probably going to retire.

And you're calling us lazy. And you want us to pay this debt? It's like, hold on a minute. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once they know, once people know that there's another option. Yeah. What do you think they're going to do?

Yeah, they're going to switch. Of course they're going to switch, but it's going to be too late for most of them. I agree. I agree, that's the sad. Once they realize it, once it clicks, they're going to go, oh, why do I, what was I thinking?

Yeah, yeah. When I was standing there with my banner protesting, all I had to do was open my phone, which is already in my hand, because it's all in every hand of everyone I read. Yeah. I had to download a wallet, which would have taken 30 seconds, and I had to press buy.

Yeah. That's what I had to do. That's how hard it is, and they won't do it. Yeah, they won't do it. Yeah, it's, yeah. I think it's the fear of the unknown from majority of people, which is they don't really understand it.

I mean, I've been, some of my friends are really super smart, but I just, I don't know whether it's a time thing, or just no interest in it, but yeah. Like I said, there'll come a point in time where it'll be just too late for these guys.

Do they still text you every time there's a drop thing? How's Bitcoin? No, any more. No, they used to, all the time. It was like, how's Bitcoin? Every time it drops 10%, 20%, I was like, don't care.

I just bought more. Yeah. I love those. Yeah, yeah. I love my favorite days. Yeah. I don't know. Stacksats. Yes. Yeah. I don't really get that many of those texting books like that. So it stops with my speech.

Yeah. But it used to annoy me. It used to annoy me, because you could see they're like so gleeful when it drops. Yeah, yeah, of course. Oh, yeah, it was Bitcoin. Yeah. It's like 20% like, yeah, but it's also done 250% in the last year.

Yeah, exactly. It's 20%. Nothing. Don't worry about it, man. Yeah, exactly. Because it's just too short-sighted. Yeah, too short-sighted. Yeah. So, is there any other projects? This is, I can't believe I'm even asking this, because I don't believe in them.

But is there anything else that you're... that has your attention to some degree? Yeah, yeah. I think what I've learned about this bear market is to keep 95% of your portfolio in Bitcoin.

Because, I mean, if you look at altcoins compared to Bitcoin, yeah, it's Bitcoin is winning without a shadow of doubt. You look at the market, the Bitcoin dominance, it's growing. Yeah, but don't get me wrong.

I think there is still money to made in altcoins. I think there's still a few cycles to be made from money from altcoins. Oh, for sure. Because no one understands it. Yeah, exactly. But I think there will come a realization that everything an altcoin can do, Bitcoin can do as well, and do it better.

And it's probably the only cryptocurrency where you could say it's truly decentralized, which has tremendous value, which has huge value. It's the only point, like, if you have a blockchain and it's not decentralized, it's probably an efficient database.

I agree. Just like... I agree. I agree. It's basically like having an Excel spreadsheet, but making it 10,000 times less efficient. If you try and sell it like that, if you're like, "Hey, guys, I've got this great idea, what I'm going to do is make an Excel spreadsheet,

and then I'm going to make it 10,000 times less easy to use and less efficient." Do you want to fund me? Yeah. Everyone would either slap you or tell you. Yeah, of course. But what actually happened is people have plowed billions.

Yeah, yeah. EOS. 4 billion. Yeah. Who was that brought per sky? EOS. EOS. EOS. EOS. And like, you only have to look it in. Here you go, scam. Yeah. Yeah. Like two seconds ago, you go to the scam.

Yeah, yeah. Obviously, scam. Yeah, yeah. And then you've got all these other ones that are trying to do the same thing, and people, like really smart people are still like, "Yeah, you know, these things are going to be amazing."

Yeah, yeah. I think that's also down to greed, I think. Most of that's greed, because I think they now have like... Because they have heavy bags. Yeah. They want to sell it. Yeah, exactly.

And do you think they believe in it though still? Or are they just acting and they're trying to sell it to... Well, I think any people who are doing other projects saw hold most of the value in Bitcoin.

But yeah, but you look at the life cycle of all these olds. I mean, back in the day, there was like Feta Cori and whatever, whatever. They all gone now. And I can almost guarantee the next bull market, the top 10 in the previous bull market, it will be a complete change.

What's your thoughts on... Like, I've got no interest in it personally, but with Ethereum. What is... Because that's the one where like, a lot of the time I'll speak to people about Bitcoin and then they'll go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, hear what you're saying.

Yeah, hear what you're saying. Yeah, you know, I'm going to buy Ethereum." And they're like, "No, no, have you not listened to what I'm saying?" "Yeah, yeah, yeah." "I've told you Bitcoin."

And they're like, "Yeah, yeah, but I've seen it on... Because it's on news channels and you've got a lot of people who have these legitimate business... Who sells, yeah. Who sell the Ethereum and talk about how wonderful it is."

Yeah. Do you like... Are you with the opinion now that it's just like it's a failed project? 'Cause it doesn't seem like... It's massive. It's a big project. And I don't want to say almost too...

There's so many people behind it. I mean, you look at their Ethereum Alliance. Some of the biggest companies are involved in Ethereum Alliance. 'Cause it's ETH 2.0 is coming out. Yeah. So it's like they're basically...

Constant updates. They're going... So they're moving away from proof of work, to proof of stake. They're going to proof of stake. Supposedly. Supposedly. We don't know when it's going to happen.

'Cause it seems like it's just like tomorrow tomorrow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, exactly. That's how it's going to work. Constantly, yeah. It's difficult. I think Ethereum does offer something slightly different in that it's sort of the first one that's sort of mastered the smart contracts.

But I do understand that Bitcoin can do smart contracts. But... I think Bitcoin conquered money. I think it's one. And I just think like in everything in the world, there's no such thing as a monopoly in anything.

Yeah, you don't see it. There's always going to be something. There's always to be something with something. So will Bitcoin be the Microsoft and Ethereum be the Mac? I don't know. Maybe.

Or maybe something like it. Yeah. I think... But then there's... So like I'm... Like decentralized finance is sort of like, you know, it's their next thing now. So their first base was ICO.

But that was decentralized finance. Decentralized finance stuff. The noise meter, it was absolutely bullshit. First, they were the world computer. Yeah. Then they were the ICO platform. Yeah, ICO platform, yeah.

Then they were the Bitcoin 2.0. Yeah. And then they started saying, "Oh, we'll eat this money." You can just like, "No." Yeah. Fucking clearly, you don't understand. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then now it's DeFi.

Yeah. It's just Fi. Because there's no D. It's not decentralized. It's not decentralized. Yeah. And no one's running these nodes. So it's just Fi. And so it's just banking. Yeah. But it's just banking, but a bit less secure and less efficient.

That annoys me. Like they're trying to constantly move the goal pose. Yeah. And it can't be money because they don't know what their suppliers stay. Yeah. And none of it's proven. But then you have like, Andreas Antonopoulos, who I really respect.

And like, he's one of the people who really helped me understand Bitcoin. But he seems to believe in it. Okay. And the way he talks about it is like, it's like lion and shark. You've got Bitcoin is money.

Any of you Ethereum people who you think is money like grow up? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just grow up. Yeah, I'm so fucking stupid. But he believes that Ethereum could be useful for other things.

Yeah. I don't know quite what things we can be useful. And he says that, you know, they're going for completely different, like you're saying, like, you know, you have an opinion. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But he seems to believe in it. And so he's a fucking smart guy. He is a very small guy. So it makes me sometimes think like, maybe there is something, yeah. But whatever it is, if there's something, I cannot see it.

Yeah. I have no interest. And like, I've never advised anyone. Fair. Oh my God. I agree. But, but, but always be open to just, you know. Oh, yeah. I mean, my advice is if you're interested, just have less percentage than you have in people.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because it's, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's. Bitcoin should always be your majority allocated assets. Yeah. Do you know anyone who's more from a traditional background, who's, who's got, who's starting to actually accumulate to some degree now?

Probably. Probably only my, my girlfriend. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she comes from a finance background, like I said. And she gets it. I wouldn't say she religiously invested in it. But if I asked her to, this is a good price to go in, she'll go in.

Right. She will definitely go in. So she will take your advice on things. Yeah. She just doesn't follow it. But she gets the message. No, no. But I bet the same is probably your girlfriend, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. She gets it. Okay. She gets it. Yeah, yeah. She's one of the... One of the... One of the... She religiously, like, every time a dip. So you go, she buys. Yeah. She just, but she's one of the only people in the world who I speak to, who's like, yeah, obviously.

That's good. Like, yeah. Which is amazing, because I didn't do think people need to be a little bit more open-minded. And first, question what money is. Yeah. That is the most important thing to understand Bitcoin's comparison, though, isn't it?

Like, what's ask? No, you're like, no, when you realize. Oh, yeah. That you didn't know. But how much would dickhead do you know? I know. Yeah, 100%. But the thing is, I was very fortunate, I think my dad never believed in money.

So that helps. So I always question money. Or all the time, always question money. And then I watched this film like, it was one day I just couldn't sleep and it's called The Zeitgeist. Yeah.

And one of the segments in the film is about money. How, how, how creation of money is an illusion. There is nothing interestingly backing money apart from armies, I guess. Military. It's a force.

It's money by force. Yeah, it's money by force. Exactly. And that's it. And when you realize there is an alternative, I think, I think because we work, we live in a system that, you know, it works.

Fairly well. Fairly well, it works fairly well. So there's no reason to understand it. But you look at countries where it's highly inflationary. You look at Zimbabwe, you look at Venezuela.

What's happening, you know, where money has been completely, it's nonsense. I mean, like, he's Zimbabwe is like 10 trillions by a loaf of bread. I've got what? Yeah, exactly. What, like, they get Bitcoin.

And I wouldn't be surprised these countries then become the next major players because they've understood and experienced the flaws of money, how it has no intrinsic value. And as soon as hyperinflation kicks in or any form of high inflation, your money just devalues.

Yeah, so they get it because they experience it. Correct. Which is maybe why majority of the UK won't understand it until we go through something of a similar kind of, I don't think it will happen in time soon because I think not at a level.

Because we've lived through it and we don't have a, I mean, our government's not great. But I mean, the governments in Venezuela are so corrupt and in Zimbabwe, they're so corrupt. Well, they're all corrupt.

They are, but not to that extent. So whether we go to that level, I don't know. It's, I always say, maybe it's calling us. We're all corrupt. All kind of corrupted, yeah. It's that some are just much more sophisticated.

The British Empire, we are very good at not looking craft and getting the line. So it's like, people question what's going on, they know things are getting worse. They don't know why. Why?

100%. So, but they get it to that right level. Whereas in Venezuela, it's like, well, hold on, I went to go and pay for this chicken. And now it's four times more money in one minute. And then you have to question it.

Because it's like, hold on and make it like, I can't even feed my family. Whereas for us, life's just getting a bit worse each year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a death. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I was this grandeur and you sort of forget. It was like a death. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. Was the surveillance day quite as bad and was I allowed to speak freely to me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And because it's creeping, it's like the frog boiling in water, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. And that's 100%. And we're just really skilled at it, like, even if it's like, there's so good, we do that.

Yeah, I've never thought about that, but yeah. So yeah, I guess it's, but it's, we are lucky and like, I'm ranting about it. But we are compared to the most of the world. Like you were saying to me, I'm like, I'm talking now, I'm slacking up government.

There's a point where like, you know, there's times where I think like, oh, just shut up, no, just don't say that because you're rocking the boat. Like the nail that stands out, furthest is going to get hammered hardest.

But I believe in it. So I think if I don't say it, then who will? Yeah. But the difference is it's unlikely someone's going to burst through my door right now and shoot me. Whereas if you're in a lot of these countries, you say the sort of things I'm just saying.

Yeah. That's happening. Yeah, I agree. Like not even a question that's happening. Yeah, agreed. So we are lucky that we can, we can say that, but it is sliding that way. It's slow, but it's sliding that way.

And if we don't talk about it and if we don't try and make changes and we don't stand up for freedom of speech and stand up for rights and stand up for freedom of expression and stand up for these things, then it will go, that it's definitely going that way.

So that's quite simple. Yeah. That's anyway. Well, mate, thanks very much for coming on. No worries. It's been really nice to chat about it because we haven't really... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we haven't had the chance to sort of go over this stuff for a while.

And yeah, genuinely thank you again. No problem. So I've enjoyed that stuff. It's been, it's been world changing, it really has. I mean, I just can't believe the mic's on you two years ago compared to now.

Hated technology, didn't want to update any of his apps. Yeah, it just, yeah. And then there's the Bitcoin that didn't know he was a Bitcoin. Yeah. And now I would say you're much more technical than me.

I'm not, yeah, I mean, I get the technical side of things, but you know way better than I do. But I'm more into the politics, the economics of it, that's what fascinates me the most. It's, yeah.

That for me is as well, but it just got to the point. I was following all of that stuff. I was like, you know what, there's one bit here where I don't understand. Like you said, you've got geopolitics, you've got all the finance side of it, you've got all of all these different aspects.

And the one bit that I was like, I'm just don't understand was the technical stuff. Yeah. I need to start learning to code. Yeah. Start playing with technology, it doesn't come naturally to me.

But it's something where I was like, this is where there's a hole in my knowledge. Yeah. I want to understand this fully. Yeah. So when I fully understand it, you now know it's someone's like the perfect system.

I would say it is. Yeah. So anyway, we'll wrap it up there. Thanks for coming on, mate. No problems. And before the next one. Yeah. We'll have a bite against it. Yeah. Open door policy. Always invited.

Thank you. All right. There we are.