Bitcoin mining and getting paid to take showers with @Schnitzel

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero. Yeah. Yeah.

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back, everyone. This is now the beginning of the Bitcoin mining month on ungovernable misfits. I've been hyped to do this for a long time, and we're finally here. I'm recording this ahead of time, actually a month ahead of time, just so that we have all our ducks in a row and that we can release some content every single day.

We're going to be having interviews. We're going to be having bite-sized bitcoins, fudbusters, and much, much more. So make sure you stay tuned in for this month if you are excited about home mining or just mining in general.

In this episode, I had the pleasure of speaking to Michael Schmidt or @shnitzel on Twitter. This guy is absolutely incredible. He has come up with such amazing designs and he's been documenting his progress.

He is on our mining panel, and if you have any questions about the things that we're talking about in this episode, you can reach out, you can send a boost, you can tag us on Twitter, get your questions in, and we'll start building.

During this whole mining month, every single sponsor who's getting on board for this month, everyone who's contributing and every single sat, is going to go back to the listeners. This will include value for value, and I will get into that in a second.

Before I do though, I just want to say thank you to my full-time sponsors. These are the guys that allow this show to continue. These are the people who allowed me the time to make this mining month.

So let's start with my anonymous sponsor. I had someone reach out to me a couple of months ago and they wanted to take a slot full-time to help this show continue. They were sick and tired of all the bullshit in the space and people dumping on their listeners.

They wanted to push the idea of value for value, so during their slot, I will be talking about value for value and why it's important. For this month, every single sat that comes to me via value for value on the podcasting 2.0 apps, I will be donating to go back to the plebs.

This month is all about you guys. This month is so that people can start mining. They can get these prizes, giveaways, merch and everything else. So any stats that come through to me will be helping cover the costs of the shipping and buying the merch and everything else.

So if you're not already using Breeze or Fountain, you can check the links in the show notes or if I forget to get to the show notes like I can do, then you can reach out to me and I can give you a link.

But it's incredible. You can stream stats per minute, you can send booths and questions and this is gonna be great for the rest of this month when people wanna dive in and ask questions to the panels and all this kind of stuff.

You can send a boost in, we will respond, we will get someone who can answer your questions and all of these stats will be going back to the listeners. I'd also like to thank FastBitcoins.

FastBitcoins have been sponsoring this show for over six months now and despite me slacking off KYC nonstop, they are here to support the show. They are real Bitcoiners and although they have to do things within the rules, they do everything that they can to keep their clients safe.

They push everyone to get their stats off exchange. They do not want to hold your stats. They were also the first exchange in the world to use lightning. They're always miles ahead of the rest and if my listeners insist on buying KYC stats, I'd at least like you to use a company that can be trusted.

I really love these guys and if you wanna check them out, you can go to fastbitcoins.com. Next up, we have foundation devices. You all know these guys. Bitcoin Q&A is on the team and recently Lily has joined as well.

I absolutely love this hardware. It really is simple to use. It's fully open source and the design is absolutely beautiful. If at the end of this month, you are mining away and you're thinking, okay, I actually wanna make sure I can secure these stats and you haven't checked out foundation devices already.

I suggest you go to foundation devices.com. You can use the code bit by bit to get $10 off your purchase. And if you have any questions at all, you can reach out to me and I will answer and if I can't answer, I will send you on to the team and they can help you.

I really do love this team and I pushed very hard to get this sponsorship. I've chased them, not the other way around and I'm very proud to be working with them. - Hi Michael, can you hear me?

- I can, hello. - Ah, there we are. Welcome to the show, nice to speak to you. - Thank you. - I've just been nerding out for the last half an hour. I asked John to send through some info of things that you've been working on.

So I had some ideas that write things to ask and pretty blown away, mate. You're not fucking around with your setup. - Yes, I think yes. If you would ask friends of mine or coworkers that yes, if I do something, then I do it right.

- I saw your cooking steak somehow using the heat? - Not yet, that's an idea, but that's the next one. - But I'm close. - And getting paid to shower and yeah, it's the dream. So yeah, like I said, welcome to the show.

It's one I've been looking forward to for some time. All of this mining month is really exciting me because it's something that I've been looking into more and more. I understand how important it is that we decentralize things and that we get plebs mining and there are so many alignments with the way

that I think, but it's just not something I've been able to do yet. It's not something I've been able to get my hands dirty with, but I desperately want to. So this whole month and this chat is just a chance for me and every other ungovernable misfit out there to start learning from you guys who are really at the forefront of this,

like really pushing ideas that I think most people could only dream of and some people who can maybe dream them up don't necessarily have the technical capability to do it. So I guess this month is really about trying to bridge that gap and get more and more people thinking in this way and getting paid to take showers.

- Yeah, no, that's exactly my goal as well. It's really about taking the fear from people show them how easy it is and give them guidance in form of videos and build tutorials and parts lists to really start doing this because at least I believe, like people always ask me like, do you have any education in plumbing or electronics?

And I don't at all like I'm a software engineer, but I always say, I know how to use a screwdriver and I have a YouTube account. So that's like, yeah, there's not much, there's some things that can go wrong definitely with like, I guess we're gonna talk about this later, but yeah, it's all about playing.

Like if you watch any child, how that they use something new, they just start using it, they start poking at it. And I think we as adults or the older we get, we lose that capability of just playing and learning.

And I think that's what I wanna go back and give people a little bit of guidance how to use it and that they don't have to start completely at zero and show them that it's possible. And so yeah, that's what I'm all about.

- Yeah, well, it's that curiosity with kids, isn't it? It's just like, they just wanna try and then they fail and then they try something else and they fail and they enjoy the process of building.

I know from my conversations with other pleb miners that they love doing what they're doing. I think you have to love the process here. The benefits are so amazing that why not give it a go?

But I think a lot of people are just a bit scared of making a mistake and a little bit scared of just diving in. But it seems that there are a few sort of boxes you need to tick, more basic boxes you need to tick.

And then you can learn from others in the community and see what other people are doing. And like you said, watch the YouTube videos and that's why it's so important when people are building these things out that they document it and looking through what you've done.

It looks like you've done one for your home. So like a hot water, like heating system replacement. And then you've been building more round. It looks like now you've got a business doing it as well.

So it means that people can actually go online and just say, well, I could can do it. Here's how he's done it. Why don't I give it a go? And that's pretty exciting. - Yes, yeah, I guess we can talk a bit about the history that I went through.

But yeah, that's really the end goal to basically create a resource where people that can say, hey, I have a little bit of money at I wanna invest and I have a little bit of time to try out.

Because none of the things that I'm building, at least right now, you can buy, you can order. So it's a lot of DIY. But I think if we look at other technologies, like specifically like 3D printers, like I bought the first 3D printer, like one of the very first first one, that was like more than 10 years ago.

And it was horrible to use. Like you had to know so many things. And I just recently bought like a 3D printer that you can buy now on Amazon. And it's so easy, but it's still the same. Like you still need to have this like, you need to build it yourself.

It doesn't come fully assembled. And so I think, yeah, we are with the miners. We are very early. We're like where 3D printers were 10, 15 years ago. But over the next years, it's gonna become easier, but it's always probably gonna be a little bit a DIY system.

But yeah, I think overall people, they learn more and they're less afraid of 3D printers and things like that. And that's what I predict is gonna happen with miners as well. And of course, there might also be companies that fully set up your house to have a water heater of miner and everything.

That's definitely also gonna happen. And that's probably gonna maybe need a bit more time. But right now, yeah, I'm focusing on the DIY stuff, which is all open source. And yeah, allow anybody that is out there to try it out.

And yeah, get paid to shower, who doesn't want that? - So what made you dive into all of this in the first place? You said you're a software engineer. I'm gonna go out on a lemon. Guess that sort of helped you quite a lot to wrap your head around Bitcoin.

But what made you dive into mining? Because you're not a heating engineer. Doing this kind of stuff scares most people. What gave you the push to do that, rather than just say, oh, just buy some sats on Coinbase?

- Yeah, so my Bitcoin story actually starts around in 2011. I was quite active. I'm originally from Switzerland. And Switzerland has like a little, it's not like Silicon Valley, but it's like a little community of software engineers that meet like once a week and talk about cool stuff.

And that's where Bitcoin was mentioned. But I actually was more interested in the cryptographic part of it. So just the possibility, or that somebody solved the double spending problem. That was just fascinating to me, that you can send something around, that you cannot immediately copy again.

Because everything in the internet is so easy-coppable. And so that was more interesting. And actually, fun fact, at that time, you couldn't buy Bitcoin, like specifically not in Switzerland.

The only way was to mine. But if you just installed Bitcoin Core on your computer, that also had the mining capabilities at that time, you mined a couple of Bitcoin in a day or two. And then we just sent each other like Bitcoins for fun.

And we looked at the protocol and the blocks and just tried to learn really again, more focusing on the cryptographic part of it. And I had no idea how broken our money was at the time. And so I lost contact with it again.

And got into it again, lost a couple of Bitcoin on Mt. Gox, learned that exchanges are bad, lost contact again. So it's just like in and out. And then I've heard about like the ASICs craze that you cannot mine with your computers anymore.

And so I got in a little bit more. And then in around 2020, I learned when all this money printing happened, like I had this hunch like that, how is that possible? Because everything that we've learned in school about personal budgets, it sounded to me like that the government doesn't apply at all.

Like none of this that you learn, they just buy a new credit card to pay off the old credit card. And I was like, how is this happening here? And so I got back into the whole money part, I got back into Bitcoin again.

And then I remembered it's like, oh, these are these ASICs. And so I just bought one, just for again, I'm like a curious person. And in terms of like learning new things, I'm saying like I'm addicted to knowledge.

And so I just bought one, played around with it. And it wasn't an S9, that at that point was like $600. So I got one, plugged it in. And the first thing that I realized is how freaking loud they are.

And so that's like, oh shit. - Horrible, isn't it? - Yeah, so you're thinking about like, okay, where could I run this thing? Because I wanna try, but I really like, I cannot, like I could even hear it outside of the garage.

So my office is in the garage, it has like an upstairs apartment. And I could even hear the miner from the house when he was running inside the garage. So I was like, okay, I have to do something there.

And I bought like a bigger fan, like for the people that know like a squirrel fan, that's like used for like house heating systems and stuff. Just a much bigger fan that is less loud. Played with that a little bit.

And yeah, just really realized like, learned about the pools, because at that point, when I mined, there were no pools. You just mined yourself and just learned all these different things about the mining part.

And yeah, this was like end of 2020, I think. Yes, and then my wife and I, we went on a longer trip, or we planned a longer trip to Colorado. I live in the US now, by the way. So we went to Colorado.

And yeah, one of the issues is, we're traveling with an airstream trailer. And one of the issues is heating the airstream or the trailer, because they're not very good insulated. And what we end up is basically every two days, we have to refill our propane tank because they're not very big.

And so the only way to actually heat the airstream at that point was a propane heater. And so I had this miner and I was like, wait, this thing is generating a lot of heat. I started at that point, heating my garage with it a little bit.

And so yeah, I had this crazy idea. Couldn't I heat the airstream with the miner? And so I came up with a solution that the miner was outside in a box, again with the bigger fan because it was less loud.

And I basically just pushed the hot air of the miner into the airstream. And yeah, I started to heat the airstream with that. And it worked, it didn't fully work. So one S9 wasn't able to heat the airstream completely.

But I reduced the amount of propane that we use massively by like 50%, which means I spent or I got some time back because I didn't have to figure out where to buy the next or where to refill the propane tanks.

But also I mined some sets during that whole time. And I was pretty excited, felt like, okay, that's cool. And I posted some pictures on Twitter about this. And then like the crazies happened of like everybody wanted to know how it was built.

I got interview requests and podcasts reached out. And that was really like that I realized, oh wow. Like that's actually something that could really be viable for other people or for like, yeah, for just DIYers to build themselves.

And so that's when I would say like that's the first step into the rabbit hole of where we are today. - That's so interesting. And the heating system for the airstream, did you have that in fluid or were you using fans?

Because obviously it'd be disgustingly noisy if you're using fans. - Yes. - So it was still with fans, so that's an air system. How the box works, it's basically, so it's like a normal like storage box.

The miner sits in there and it pulls out, it pulls air from the outside, pushes it through the miner where it gets heated up and then through a duct, it goes into the airstream. It was kinda, yeah, like you say dusty because it's outside.

So you have like, you have like moths that get attracted because the miner has some lights so they get attracted to it. So it was really like a super, super proof of concept, but it worked in the end, I was able.

And so that was all that it was about. But I always knew that yes, the air, the air part, it's okay, so, but if you really, really wanna use the heat, like if you wanna properly use it to either heat your house or heat water or do whatever you want with it, yeah, I realized that I really need to use

some kind of exchange material that is better than just air because the problem with air is that it's a bit hard to actually transport and it's actually quite bad in keeping heat. And so I've always heard about immersion.

So where you put your computer or server into oil or water, I actually played at the very early beginning with some water cooling of computers. And so I went to Bitcoin Miami 2020 and I saw some of the immersion rigs that they sold for like industrial mining, so really big mining with these tanks and the specific oil.

So there's a company called engineered fluids that produces a bit cool, that's a specific oil made for minor immersion. Yeah, and at that conference also talking with some other miners that's actually where I met tech engineer 21 that you already had a podcast with.

And he talked about his immersion system that he heated his pool. And that's where really the idea for the Bitcoin water heater became alive. And yeah, I came back and started working on that.

- Yeah, so you're iterating constantly. So it went from having it in the office, then into an air stream, then into a water heater. And as you progress through, it's getting more efficient and more effective.

I do wonder whether you could do something in an air stream with the fluid and whether that would work. I'm only thinking, 'cause I've literally just finished building one and we put a truma heater in there, which can run on electric and gas.

So if you're on a hookup site, you can run it on the electric, 'cause otherwise you just burn straight through the batteries, it wouldn't really work. But I'm wondering whether I fucked up and whether I should have thought of this and had a couple of miners running.

- Yeah, so I am thinking about what I'm gonna do because we are gonna actually go back to Colorado and go ski again. The problem with fluid and being on the road, it's just like, yeah, you need to go, you need to have very good tanks and like double insulated because like, if you think about like,

you're pulling this thing down the highway and I've seen people that put like seismographs inside the air streams while they're traveling down the road and they have like, level four earthquakes inside of it.

So however you transport a liquid, you wanna make sure that it's double or triple secure. And so that's the part that I hesitate a little bit. But yeah, so what I might wanna do is yes, to have the miner probably outside and then pump the hot liquid inside

and maybe pump it through some kind of radiator or stuff. The problem is with any trailer, you're in specifically an air stream, the size that we have, you only have like a 22 foot one, you're limited in space that you have inside the air stream.

So that's why I put the whole miner outside. And so that again, so I don't know yet. Follow me on Twitter, you will see what I'm gonna do. But for that specific, yeah, because the oil is just, it's a pain to handle.

So I might just fall back again and maybe just have two S9s outside in a box and duck them inside of it and that way. And the other thing though that I have to say is like, because if it's outside, it's not something that we like set up, like if we just stayed for one night, somewhere, we then again use the propane

because it's all part of it. So I don't think it's like a horrible mistake having a system that is fully integrated into the air stream. I only use the miners really when we were stationary for a couple of days.

- Yeah, maybe if we're more static than it's something I can rethink. But it's just one of those things which is like the nerdiness of that, like that would excite me so much. Every time I'd pull up somewhere, I'd think, ah, yes, I'm mining a wild-stime warm.

This is fucking amazing. (laughing) - And you know, one of the fun things is, at least in the US, you don't actually get paid charged by the kilowatt hours you're using. You just pay for like the slip of the RV park.

But how much energy you use, they don't really care. Also, like there's way bigger rigs, like there's 40 foot trailers sometimes there that have like four AC units on top of them or use like electric heating as well.

So I don't think we actually made a dent in any of the RV parks, but yeah, that's the other thing. Like you're literally mining for free because you don't pay the electricity or you already paid for it with the daily fee.

So it's less noticeable for you. - Incredible. Then you've moved on to build this into I assume your home, this like water heater. - Correct. - I'm guessing you took the heating element out and then replaced the miner with that.

Or did you have to do something a bit weirder than that? - Yeah, it's a bit more complex. - Okay. - Yeah, so the reason that I switched to the water heater was it was summer and all my heating systems that I did for the airstream and also for the garage, like I didn't need them anymore because we're now my AC is running.

So I was like, yeah, how could I use the miner again for the summer? And then I don't know how I found this, but somebody told me like, yeah, that the water heater actually uses a lot of energy in a house.

And I researched a bit and it turned me off. Like the water heater is probably like 50% of your electrical bill is just the heating of the water. And also like they're a hundred percent efficient, but they're not more efficient.

So that means they just normal water heater electrical one. It's basically just a huge cattle that just heats the water. It's much better insulated, of course. But yeah, it's just resistive heating.

So it basically, it runs the power through some resistive coils that sit in the water and that's it. And so there's a lot of water in that and it takes quite some energy to heat water. So that's all there is.

So I was thinking, how could I heat the water inside of it, inside of my tank? And then after some research, I found a whole community of people that are using wood stoves to heat their water.

So let's say you live in the woods and you have a lot of wood available that you burn to maybe even heat your house or you just burn it because you have it. There's some people that use that to heat the water in their water tanks, but because you don't have a fire running all the time, you wanna figure out the system

that you can still use your regular water heater and just basically augment the water heater with the wood fire. And so what they do is they actually have a heat exchanger outside of the water heater.

So that means that while you still have the electrical coils or if you have a gas propane heater, water heater, you still leave that all intact. But all you do is that you pump the water from the bottom of the water heater outside, run it in the case of the wood fire stuff.

You run it through the fire basically, like you pipe some coils through the fire through the heat and then pump it back into the water heater. And you basically with that heat up the water inside the water heater and then the electrical or the propane doesn't need to run anymore because the water is already hot.

And I use that system and connected my minor to it. The problem is that all these miners, like most miners that you buy today, they're all built for air. So they have a fan at the front and then at the back and they just run air through it.

So you can't just connect water to it. Like there's no plug to connect it to water. There are now miners that are coming out that are specifically hydropowered but they are super expensive, they're rare.

So it's not something we as the plaps could find and buy. And instead, yeah, we need to find a solution. And of course you cannot submerge the miner into water. Believe me, I tried with graphic cards, doesn't work.

I mean, it works for 10 milliseconds and then you have smoke. And so yeah, you need some kind of fluid. And in this case, it's an oil that is not electrically conductive. So the oil itself does not create shorts.

And so what you do is you put the miner into that oil. You try to run it a little bit through that you have either like from the bottom up because heat rises. That's what I have in my system.

And then you basically pump the hot oil to the water heater. But the problem is you can't put the oil into the water heater because then you have contaminated water and it's not fun to shower with oil either.

So yeah, you need some kind of heat exchanger. But they are like in industrial settings, you have these type of heat exchangers all the time where you have two liquids where you would like to exchange the heat from one liquid to the other.

And they're so-called plate heat exchangers that basically just run the liquid very close to each other. But they never actually touch physically. So they're always separated by like copper or some other material.

But it allows the oil to give its heat to the water. So the cold water gets pumped out of the bottom of the water heater because inside the water heater tank, the hot water is always at the top and the cool water is at the bottom just because of physics.

So you pump the cold water out of the bottom and pump it through the heat exchanger and where then the hot oil also gets pumped through and the hot oil gives its heat to the water because the water is cooler and the water is a little bit warmer.

It's not super hot yet. It's a little bit warmer. And then you pump this back into the water heater. And so that's the two cycles. So you have a cycle of oil and you have a cycle of water.

And then basically over a couple of minutes, in my case, like 30 minutes, 45 minutes, you can heat the water in the water heater to whatever temperature you want, which is usually with water heaters 140 Fahrenheit or 60 degrees Celsius.

- Okay. So normally when you're talking about people who are using this with like a fireplace or a log burner and then they're using that heat to pump into the tank and then they're using that rather than switching on the kettle basically.

- Yeah. - But obviously that's something that you're gonna use intermittently, you're not gonna always have the fire going whereas presumably with your miners, you wanna have these running as much of the day as possible.

You don't want to, I'd really be switching them on and off. You wanna have them running all the time. So do you get to a situation where you're having to then take some of the hot water away and pump in some cold water so that it doesn't get too hot?

Or is it actually that you have to add some hot because it's not hot enough? Or does it just depend on the tank because obviously that's gonna make a difference? - Yes. Yeah, so it definitely depends on the size of the tank and how much hot water you're using.

So that means how many showers you take per day, how often you run the dishwasher and the clothes washer and all that stuff. But yeah, so my system right now and uses the thermostats of the water heater.

So the water heater has thermostats that are measuring the temperature inside the water heater and they usually turn on or off the electrical coils. And what I basically did, I disconnected the electrical coils and I'm using the thermostats to measure the temp or to tell me when the water is not hot enough.

And that then turns the miners on and off. So my miners are not running 24/7, just based on the fact that it would be way too hot. Like if I take a shower and I use like a normal shower uses like 30 liters of water, so that's around 10 gallons.

And the miners only need to run for half an hour, 45 minutes to heat the water that was used back up. And then all the water in the tank is back at 60 degrees Celsius and the miners need to stop.

So I have to stop the miners because yeah, they literally would heat the oil above 100 degrees Celsius. So at which point you would generate steam and you literally have a steam bomb in your house.

So that's not something you want. And so yeah, my miners right now, they're only running maybe like for two hours a day. - And these are S9s presumably. - These are S9s, yes, correct. - Okay, 'cause the idea...

- So, sorry, go on. - And of course the cool thing would be is they're actually a way to run them longer. Now, in my specific case, and we haven't talked about that, but one of the crazy things about this system is it uses the exact same amount of energy than the water heater before because it's physics.

Like the water heater converts 100% of the electricity into heat and a miner does exactly the same. So that was one of the light bulb moments that I had that went before I started working on is that I realized that a miner or any computer for the miner converts 100% of the electricity that it uses into heat.

So the computing itself doesn't actually consume electricity in the tens that it stores the electricity or changes it into some kind of other energy form. It is 100% heat. So if you have an S9, which let's say runs at 1,600 watts, you generate 1,600 hot watts of heat.

So in my system, my miners or the whole water heater uses the exact same amount of energy than it was before. And that's why I can use S9s because right now, an S9, unless you have super, super, super cheap electricity, you're actually gonna lose money with an S9 because the S9, just the watts per terra hash

is just so bad or just an older miner that for the electricity that you pay, you would actually mine less Bitcoin in value of today's value of like 20,000 US dollars. But in my case, because I would use the electricity anyway for the water heater, I don't care that the efficiency is maybe not that good

because I would have spent the electricity anyway. I would have spent the money anyway. So any sets that I'm generating, I say I basically get for free because the alternative would be to use the water heater and then I get zero sets.

So every set that I get is for free. And so I also don't care that the miner is not that efficient. Now, of course, if you would like, if you put in like an S19, which costs way more than an S9, you would like to run this 24/7.

And then you would find a way how to pipe the hot oil after the water is heated somewhere else. And that's basically the next evolution of my water heating system that I want to pump the hot oil after the water is heated into a house heating system or a pool or some other way that I can use to heat.

But then that makes it a little bit more complex because yes, then suddenly you have to have like why valves and switching that you pump the oil in different places based on what you need.

- Yeah, it's so interesting how not only scalable this is but also that it can fit basically anyone's needs because for your system, it makes it, or your current system, it makes sense to have an S9 because the hardware is cheaper and you're not going to run it all the time.

So you don't have that capital expenditure to pay off. So that makes way more sense. You're going to pay the money for the electricity anyway. You might as well have the sats. So that works beautifully.

And then for someone who's building, like you're suggesting like maybe to have underfloor heating or to have a pool or have whatever else, you can scale that to any size because you just presumably add more miners.

It's down to the wattage of these miners and then that depends how much heat there is. And then depending on that, how big the tank is, et cetera, et cetera. So really what you're saying is there's no logical reason that anybody building a new home or even if it's a commercial place that you should be using a normal electric heater,

it's actually really fucking stupid to do anything other than have a miner running if you're using electricity rather than gas. - A thousand percent, yes. Yeah, I'm actually calling my water heater.

It's like a very dumb miner that like lost its connection to the pool or something. Like it's, and so that's why the whole steak idea comes from. Like, so I did some zubit steak and you have this heating stick, like to heat up the water.

And I'm looking at this and it's like, that's another assistive heater. Like, why is this not an ASIC? So that's where the whole tweet came from. It's like, wait, why do I use it? Like I'm literally giving away sats right now because like this could like, and so yeah, that's like the idea.

The problem is, so the oil usually that I use to heat up the water is in the water heater is like, is much hotter than what you need for zubit. So I'm gonna need to figure out a way somehow to not get the oil that hot.

And so I can zubit, but yeah, that's like basically the idea is to replace anything in your house that generates heat in the future, I believe, should be a miner. So your hair dryer, your hot water kettle, your water heater, of course, your pool heater, anything should be some kind, should just mine Bitcoin like that.

That would be the future. And if we wanna go further, technically from a physics level, it's possible to also convert hot oil into cool water. It is possible. So if you wanna spin this further, there might actually be a way that you could cool your house with a miner.

It's gonna be a bit more complex and it doesn't really exist on like normal retail level. So these kind of systems that are called absorption chillers, they more exist on industrial data center systems.

But actually, fun fact, most RVs actually have a fridge that can also run by propane and propane is heat. So that's one of the next things. Again, I have a lot of projects, but that's one of the next things I also wanna try is like, could I actually run the fridge in the air stream from the heat of the miner?

And could we maybe scale this up on a house level that you could actually run the AC, so the cooling part of your house system from the hot oil as well? Because that would be even more mind blowing that like everything in your house, heating or cooling is done by an AC miner.

- Yeah, that's crazy. When you really think about it, the incentive is 100% there for every single person on the planet to be doing this. There's only a few people on the internet doing this tinkering, building stuff themselves.

How far ahead do you think the pleb miners and the guys like you who are tinkering with this stuff and iterating on this stuff? How far ahead do you think you are compared to when the rest of the world wakes up?

Because presumably at some point they will and they'll go, oh my God. What are we doing not using miners in our heating and cooling systems? This is what an absolute waste. And when they talk about wasting energy and climate issues and blah, blah, blah, like surely this is the first thing you start thinking about.

- Yeah. Do you think it happens quickly or do you still think this is going to be a long process? - I think that's the million dollar question honestly. Like I would say it's very simple to predict what is going to happen.

It's super hard to predict when it is going to happen. Personally, I think we're going to have similar adaptation curves like solar panels on roofs of houses. Like I remember when like a couple of years ago people talked about this and like, oh, no.

Yeah, I know it's too expensive and all the stuff. And suddenly, like I feel like every, like if you don't have solar panels on top of your house you're already old, like you're like behind.

And I think, and the same of course happened with the internet that happened with smartphones. Like I do remember, I still remember when like Apple released the iPhone. And now like if you don't have one anymore like you're the weird person and that's like 10 years ago.

Like, so I would love to say it's like in two or three years but I think it's probably more like on a 10 year timeframe. And with maybe like the first product being really available in the next couple of years.

So we'll see. But I think it's a timeframe between two to 10 years. That's what I would guess. Yeah, 'cause you could almost see companies building these sort of systems and saying, you know, if you have someone who's a huge consumer of energy for heat, some of these commercial projects or like, you know, heating huge swimming pools

or doing stuff like that, you could almost see that the maths would work that a company could say, look, we'll put your heating system in, we'll charge half what any other system would charge but we want the sats, we keep the sats.

So anything that comes in comes to us. And the person saying, well, I mean, it's half the price and spending the same amount of energy. Why wouldn't I do that? Yeah, I could easily see that.

Especially when, like when I'm looking at this stuff, I'm thinking, well, you've got these mining, you basically boxes, you've got an S9 which has got a fan on there, it's got all the casing, it's got all that stuff.

It seems as though like you're kind of taking something that's built for one purpose and then you're having to tinker and do this whole, is it fan spoofing you call it where you have to switch the fan off if it's going in the cool and all this kind of tinkering you've got to do for something that's completely unnecessary

but someone's paid for. Do you think they'll come up point where you just effectively buy the chips and all the other bits that you need and you don't need the casing, you don't need the fans, you don't need any of that.

And then that's being built straight into these systems. So they're way more efficient. Yes, and I think we are right before this. So give it a couple of weeks or months and this is going to happen.

The reason for that is that we have to understand that until now, the only way that you could buy an ASIC chip was if, like you said, you bought the whole case. So there's two, basically two companies, Bitmain with the Antminer and Whatminer, that's the other one but they own the chips and they don't actually sell you

the individual chips except for repairs but there's no like spec sheets but now the fact that Intel and Samsung start to build these chips, at least what I've heard is that they're actually going to sell the chips individually like you buy any other computer chips.

So if you go to Intel, they will sell you the CPU or there are any other chips that they produce you and they give you a spec sheet is how you communicate and then you as the company, let's say Apple then builds the case around this.

They build the PCBs and stuff like that but these Bitmain and Whatminer, they don't do this right now but the company is Intel and Samsung and probably others as well, they will build these individual chips and then you can build it into whatever you want.

So yeah, there might be in the future a water cattle that has a Wi-Fi connection that just mines Bitcoin every single time. Now, what we have to understand, these are usually going to be chips that are very efficient and these chips put them into a water cattle, doesn't really make a lot of sense

because your water cattle maybe runs for 15 minutes in a day. So the cost of producing the chips and producing very efficient chips and the first ones are going to be very efficient, of course.

You're probably going to put them more into like industrial stuff like you mentioned. So like hotels or swimming pools or any other thing that needs like heat. But over time, they're going to be more efficient chips again, developed.

And so the chips that are coming out today or in the next couple of weeks or month, they're going to be less efficient and then you can put them. Like if you think about a Raspberry Pi, like if you look 10 years ago and you would show somebody a Raspberry Pi and you would tell them this is like $15, they would never believe you

because a computer at that time was like thousands of dollars and the form factor was way bigger. But because we have these chips that are developed once for very high cost, but after you develop them, you just need to produce them.

So over time, the price is going to drop massively. And so I predict the same is going to happen with these A6 chips. So the first ones that are going to be come out by Intel and Samsung, they're going to be used into systems that can, that will run 24/7 because they're just so expensive.

But over time, the price are going to drop. And then yeah, you can put these A6 anywhere. And yeah, like you said, the company that sells them could even say like, hey, here is a water cattle.

It's going to cost 25% of a normal water cattle, but just connected to the wifi. And yeah, we're going to take the Bitcoin that is mined from it. And in the end, the company just makes a bet that the sets are then going to be used and flowing in the future.

So I think there is so many business models and so many capabilities or things that we're not even aware yet. And I hear a couple of people talking about this, but like if you talk to like producers of water kettles, like they don't even believe you, that's possible.

(laughing) - Like it's like the real smart home of the future doing something that's actually really is smart. Yeah, the other thing that's interesting and obviously something we're going to be pushing heavily in this month is this idea of pleb mining.

So my dream is that all exchanges or most exchanges wither and die and fuck off. That's the KYC and AML and all this nightmare shit that is leaking into Bitcoin, which has no place here, dies off.

And the dream is that you have people leave them mining themselves at home. And so that is their DCA, you know, they're saying, okay, well, every month or every week where every day I'm getting this amount of sats in and that's what I want to scale to.

Or you have people who are building out a little bit more and then they're actually there the exchange. So if someone was coming by sats, they'll go, "Oh, Michael, can I come and buy some sats?"

And you might say, "Yeah, okay, I need to buy "some more machines or, you know, I would sell "for this reason or actually I need your services here. "So I'll give you some sats." But it completely cuts out this exchange or any of the legacy system because it becomes commonplace because like you're saying, someone's boiling a kettle

I mean, maybe that's an extreme example for however many years in the future but someone's at least running their heating system. Well, they've got sats and if it's done right, no one has to know they have those sats.

And then so what are the implications down the line and how does this change and make this circular economy possible? What are your thoughts on that? - Totally. I mean, first of all, yes, I agree with you, all the exchanges, I don't think they're gonna fully die because I think you will always want to have traders

that wanna trade and speculate and that's what an exchange is great for. But yes, to actually store, to buy the Bitcoin and store them, I mean, for that reason, yes, they should really go away.

And I think that is gonna happen over time, give it enough time and give it enough of exchanges dying and exploding and people losing their money there so that people realize. And yeah, that everybody in the end, yeah, it's gonna be their own little miner at home.

And generate sats with that. And actually, fun fact, I mean, like I said, I would love to put S19s into my system to be a bit more efficient. And I thought about, could I actually pump my oil to my neighbor to heat their water tank as well?

So who knows, maybe I'm gonna have a little shed in the middle of our street, like we're like five or six houses on the street. And there's gonna be all the S19s and everybody that uses water, they just connect to that system.

So we have like our own little heat grid because it's gonna be way more efficient than everybody having their own S19s and then you just measure on how much oil they used or like, and who knows, I mean, so technically like, we could all like, it could be a net positive.

So we could all heat our houses for free because we have this central heating system of all these houses connected to it. And all we need to do is like, we would have the CapEx cost, like off the buying the miners, of course.

But over time, this would like, would be a net positive. So yeah, I do think that Bitcoin allows these smaller groups of houses or people or communities to start exchange value between them again.

Like maybe somebody has a really big roof or has a better roof pointed better to the sun. So they will say, hey, I'm gonna put, instead of putting miners in my house, I'm gonna put more solar power on my house.

And with that, I get more water out of it and things like that. Like these smaller communities that start to exchange value. And I think that's, I mean, if you look at, if you look in the past, like thousands of years, that's what we have done.

And now, since it's a couple of hundred years, yeah, we have created these mega cities and these monster economies. But we see what's happening. And I think in the end, people are really made to live in smaller communities.

I myself now live in a town with 400 people. And it's awesome. Like it's just so cool to know your neighbors, to know them personally, to help each other. And I really believe that's what humans are made for.

And I think Bitcoin mining specifically for Bitcoin as a whole really allows us to do that. - Definitely, as you were saying that as well, and you're talking about a community pooling in with their resources.

I was thinking, if you are buying a load of S-19s or whatever hardware we'd be on at that time when that starts to happen, obviously that's a lot of upfront cost. I wonder whether there will be ways to finance that.

Well, not even I wonder, there will be ways to finance that. And then, will that effectively become a speculative attack on the dollar? Because people are taking out the loans to buy the hardware, which is going to push Bitcoin forward and into more people's hands.

Basically, what Pierre Richard wrote about all those years ago, but really around mining at home and mining in these communities, it could really accelerate things. - Totally, yes. Yeah, I think the fact that most minor companies today, they are all, I think they're all Chinese produced.

It just makes it much harder for them to actually start to finance things in the US. But as soon as we have actual US companies or European companies or whatever, local companies, they then suddenly can also do, yeah, they can do financing, you can buy maybe your S-19 and you have to connect it to a specific pool.

And then maybe like the first set that the S-19 or maybe 50% of the sets that it mines actually goes to the company that sold you, the S-9 for cheaper and things like that. Yeah, I totally could predict systems out there that have to do with financing and like making it easier for people.

And I mean, we already see this with solar panels, like there are already cases where if you want to buy a solar panel system for your roof, you get it cheaper if you make it a little bit bigger and then the money that you get back from the grid because you pump back some of the energy back into the grid actually goes back to the company

that built the solar panel for you. So yeah, I mean, these systems already are there and we just need to adapt them and build them with Bitcoin miners. It's very exciting. It does seem like this is going to massively help with decentralizing things.

It's definitely seems at the moment that it seems to be going kind of the wrong way. In my opinion, with my limited knowledge is that there's a lot of these big companies and warehouse miners.

Yes. They are in my eyes a big problem but a big problem waiting to happen. Yes. Do you think that it's realistic, what we're talking about, the more of the pleb mining and more of these communities and this kind of stuff makes enough sense that it balances things out because it does seem,

if anyone's going to get the financing at the best rates and get economies of scale and all those nice things, it is the big fat heavy companies who are buying thousands of these things but at the same time, they are the ones who are going to be attacked and they are the ones that are going to fold and they're going to do as they're told

when governments come knocking, whereas the pleb miners and these small communities, basically, even if someone knows what they're doing, they're going to say, fuck off, no, I'm not going to be turning off.

So what are your thoughts around that? I mean, I honestly think this is a massive sleeping dragon that not many people are aware of and I mean specifically is these massive big mining companies because they provide, of course, a huge service to the electrical grid.

Like, I think we totally have to accept that, that these big miners, they will help the electrical grid to be more stable and maybe become even more green or more renewable. Like, I totally believe that.

And you can only really do this at least right now with these massive mining systems and that's their great for that. But as soon as governments realize that they actually gain control through that because they give them tax incentives and stuff like that.

And so basically, the governments suddenly have leverage over them. What they could do, they could go to these massive mining systems and say, hey, we want you to never add, or add a Tren, a UTXO to a transaction of these specific UTXOs.

So what this means is in the end, it's the miners that decide which address or UTXO goes into a block. And even though that this address has a lot of fee included, it's the miner that decides if they put it in or not.

So the US, what they could do, they could go to all the miners in the US and say, we want you to ignore these specific UTXOs and these are, for example, all the addresses in Russia or all the addresses in Iran.

And that could create a massive problem because let's say 30% of all mining force is in the US, this means you're gonna have an issue with actually transacting your money. Now, it doesn't mean that the transaction never goes through because they're still 70% of miners that not gonna do that.

But now think about NATO. Now, let's think about NATO gives out a ruling to all its member stations to ignore a specific set of UTXOs. You might not transact anymore. Like you could sit in Russia, let's say, it's Russia.

You sit in Russia and you cannot transact your money anymore. Like it's not gonna be possible. And I think that's a massive, massive, massive risk. And that could actually, I could see one of the reasons that Bitcoin fails because I really believe Bitcoin can only succeed if it cannot be controlled by governments.

And the only way that we can do this is we have to push back with home mining. I think that's the only way. Of course, you can have all these big companies pledging now that we are never gonna do this.

And like we have, we have this already, but come on. Like if they are at gunpoint and not physically gunpoint, but like with taxes or whatever, they're gonna do it. We see it every single day today.

Like if you are like, I'm involved in software stuff, like we are not allowed to ship software to Iran. Or if we do, we go to jail. Like, so it's already here. It's just not in the mining part.

It's just with other software. But this is gonna happen for mining. And so the only way that I see is we can only push back with the home mining. Because like you said, the homeowners or the only ones that are gonna say, fuck you, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna add this transaction in.

And if it's in, the government cannot do anything. And do you really, and the government will never have a possibility to go to every house and shot off their heating system. Because imagine the government would say, okay, now you're not allowed to heat your house anymore.

Well, then you have your rights on the streets immediately. So I really think- - Well, I don't know, I don't know, would you though? You see what's happened over the last couple of years and people have just gone, yeah, that's it.

I'll just bend over, you can fuck me for the next two years. I'll do whatever you say. It doesn't have to make sense. I'm not gonna riot. I mean, for the most part, I don't think that we can rely on the general public to stand up.

I don't know if they're capable of it. Whereas I do know that there are a group of people who will mine at home, the proper pleb group who will say, well, this is important enough. Like what you're talking about is, if people truly believe in Bitcoin, they truly think it's necessary to make changes to the world,

then they're gonna say, well, actually, I need to start thinking about home mining. I need to start bringing some balance here because, I don't know, I don't feel comfortable relying on the public.

- Yeah, no, you definitely have a point. I mean, there will be people that say like, yeah, we need to stand up and block these UTXOs and stuff like that. There is a little bit of hope in myself that like if you look specifically at what is happening right now, like at least everybody that I talk to, like we talk about this like Russia

and sanction against Russia and everybody's for them, but then you ask them, well, but are you also for the fact that now individual people cannot leave Russia anymore? And it's like, oh, no, I don't want that.

And so like, well, but this is what's happening. Like we're literally actually hurting the people because the government themselves, they don't care. And so I, there is a little bit of hope in me that these people will say.

And there's of course also hope into the builders that they actually build technology systems that it's not possible to sanction specific UTXOs and stuff like that. But of course, you are gonna have these people that are just blindly following the government saying, oh, should I install a new firmware?

Yeah, sure, I'm gonna do this. And then the government maybe like gives you tax incentives if you run a specific firmware on your miners as we see it with Nest thermostats. Like, we already have this.

Like when you, I used to live in Austin and like you installed Nest and then Nest says, oh, I realized you're in Austin. Would you like to connect this to the power grid? Now I'm not saying that this is the government and it's evil, but I'm saying that technology is already there to do some things.

And that's gonna happen with the miners as well. I just, I don't see any other possibility than this. So now I think we have to take whatever there is and that is to get as many homeowners as possible into people's homes.

And that's actually a good transition to my newest project, which is just a space heater. So that's where I'm just trying to make a completely silent S9, again with oil, but this time with a radiator that then exchanges the heat from the oil into the air.

So that's something that you can build yourself with super simple tools. It's just, it's a pump you can find anywhere. It's a computer cooling radiator and a couple of pipes and a little bit of oil that you can install at your home and it's completely silent or almost silent.

I have to say there's still a fan that runs a little bit, but it's way, way, way, way less loud than like a normal S9 that you can just use at your home and heat your house with or rooms, individual rooms.

And again, it's all focused on actually creating the heat and the good negative effect is going to be that there is also going to be a minor that secures the network. - Is this Nakamoto heating solutions?

- Yes. - This is, okay. So I had a look at it, it looks really, really cool. And I think you're absolutely right. It is an amazing way that someone who's listening to this maybe is thinking, well, I don't know whether I want to rip out my whole heating system and replace it or speak to my neighbors

and do all the things that we're talking about, which I think is a little bit further in the future, but they might be thinking, well, I have got a garage and it gets pretty cold in the winter and it might be quite nice to have one of these things running and the cost of an S9, especially now is not massive.

And I think from memory, you've gone into quite a lot of detail of how to build it. So this is like an incredible way for someone just to dip their toe in. So what are the, if someone's thinking that and they go, yeah, fuck it, I'm going to do this.

I need to, I need to start. What are the steps they need to take? - Yes. So maybe to shortly explain the idea behind knock on all the heating solutions, I basically realized that running it under my own name is very tedious and I have other people that want to help me.

So we just created another Twitter account, knock on all the heating solutions to basically provide a bit of space for all these different projects. But it's all going to be completely open source for the, for what we're building right now.

And it just gives it a little bit in other home. But yes, that specific project. So I call it the silent Bitcoin space heater. All you're going to need is an S9 or I mean, technically any other miner.

I just happened to have a couple of S9s lying around. You're going to need a normal PC radiator. So a water cooling radiator. Depending on the size, the warmer you will, or the more energy you will be able to pump into your house.

I don't have data yet, but eventually I want to show like, how many of the heaters you need or how much the radiator needs to be for a specific size of house or size of a room. And then you need a pump, which can be a super simple like aquarium fish tank pump or again, a computer water cooling pump

and a couple of pipes, three fans, depending on how big the radiator is and the oil. So all in all, I hope that we can, without the S9, we can get to like maybe $200 of costs. And then the S9, which like you said right now is also super cheap.

You can find them for two, $300. So all in all, maybe five, $600. You can build it yourself. You don't need any specific tools or anything. Like you don't need a welder. You don't even need to like solder.

You just screw it together. I'm using as many existing screws that you already have. So you actually don't even need to buy any new screw. You just use all the ones that you already get from your miner.

And yeah, you have a little space heater and that you can connect to either 110 volts or 220, depends on how it's gonna work with both. And yeah, it's gonna heat your house and mine you some sets.

So that's really the idea. And actually it comes mostly from my friends in Europe because I have a lot of friends that are right now really, really scared about winter. And they have, let's say their whole house is heated by oil or propane gas.

There's really worries that this will either run out or be so expensive that they cannot pay it anymore. And the bet is that normal electricity will always be available. It might be very expensive, but at least it's available.

And so this is actually a project also to allow these people that are completely based on oil and gas heating to have a heating solution at home that doesn't use oil or gas and just uses electricity.

Yeah, there's a lot of people in that position at the moment all across Europe who are worrying about this. There's a lot of people who are gonna need some heat anyway. And it's just such an interesting project to start with because you don't have to throw fortunes at it.

It seems like it would be simple enough to put one of these together. Do you have a sort of rough timeframe for maybe someone who isn't that handy or that technical? Is it like a weekend project or what sort of amount of time do you think to get one of these?

Yeah, I almost would say like it should be done in one day. Like I built it in a couple of hours. So the next steps for the project is I need to find a pump that is reliable. Right now I'm struggling a little bit with the, so some of the pumps they don't like to heat.

And because you have very cheap pumps, like I said, like I wanna do like a 10, $20 pump, the problem is you don't really find good data sets at which point they stop. So I literally just went on Amazon and bought all the pumps I can find and we'll figure out which of them works.

So that's the steps. But yeah, the end goal is to have a full build video. So basically guiding people through from zero, so having all the parts to the whole system running. And I hope that this can be like in an hour or two.

Yeah, for people that maybe never played with it, that it maybe takes a little bit longer, but yeah, it really should be done. And by the way, I'm also doing the exact same also for the water heater as well.

That one of course is gonna take a bit a little bit longer because there's more plumbing involved, but I'm also gonna create a full build video on how to create all of this. Because like I said, for me, it's all about that people can buy it, build and buy this, buy the parts and build it at home.

- Amazing. And the other thing is obviously John has kindly said he's gonna put an S9 up as a prize for this month. So I'm not sure what day that will actually be running, but that could be an opportunity for somebody listening to this to say, oh, well, you know, maybe I can get my hands on that prize

and start with it, which would be pretty cool. Do you have an idea? 'Cause we're recording this a little bit ahead of time. I don't suppose you're gonna have these videos ready for the month, are you?

- I expect to actually release them all in August. - Okay, so in the August they should all be there, yeah. - Okay, so they should be up and ready. So anyone who's listening to this today should be able to go and have a look at these videos and then have all the info they need to build one of these things.

- Yes, yeah, and I'm happy to share like the links so we can put them in the show notes so that people can start right away. - Amazing. - Yeah, and then I really like also, like I really see this as a community thing.

So if other people using other minors, like there's so many more than just S9s, like there's all the what's minor series, there may be others, like I really encourage everybody to also record yourself or document it a little bit because I truly believe this is only works if we are a whole community that shares

as much knowledge as possible. So I'm just trying to be one of the first ones that does this, but in the end, I think, yeah, we need to figure out ways that we figure this out for all kinds of different things and that only works if everybody shares their information and knowledge.

- Yeah, totally agree. Well, I think that's probably a good place to wrap this up. It's been really, really good speaking to you. I'd love to do another one in the future and I look forward to seeing these videos and for anyone who's listening to this, make sure you check the links, which will now be in the show notes.

You'll be able to see these videos and good luck winning the S9, hopefully you win and you can build one of these things or if not, I guess a final question would be any advice on somebody going to find an S9.

Do you have anywhere that you would suggest they go and have a look for one? - I mean, if you are in the US specifically, Facebook marketplace, say it's actually a good place to find some, make sure that you're not getting scammed.

So don't let people ship them, pick them up. I had a couple of people that unfortunately got scammed. There are actually companies out there that sell them. One of them that I've used before is called Kaboom Racks.

They actually sell in two plaps and then there's Telegram groups that you can find if you Google for like minor selling Telegram and the problem is the Telegram groups, a lot of them have like minimum order quantities.

So you need to buy like 50 or 100 sometimes. I was also able to buy individual ones. So that's definitely in my market where I am right now. If you are in other countries, yeah, check Facebook, check maybe Craigslist.

Again, all of these go and pick it up, look at it, let it run before you actually buy it. And then maybe just go to your local Bitcoin meetup. Like there is many of them ask some of the people.

I've seen groups that decided, okay, we buy 50 together from like one of these bigger sellers. They sometimes they ship all over the world if you buy enough of them. And then they start to divvy them up in their own communities again, thinking communities.

And it's really about, that's what Bitcoin is about. And so that's maybe a possibility to find a couple of plaps that wanna buy some together. So that's what I can advise. You can also find them on Amazon and of course, but usually the prices are way higher.

And I'm saying like 50 to 60 to 100% higher of what you would buy. But it's also a possibility that you can just buy them on Amazon or any other online stores because yeah, you can find them as nine specifically.

So right now, yeah, they are super, super, super cheap because they are horrible inefficient. So for anybody that bought them for the mining efficiency and they are selling them right now.

And I actually get offers of like buying 10,000 as nines. Like that's the quantities that you can buy them right now. So you can buy like four or five ship containers full of them and for a price of like $50 a piece.

And these things when they came out, they were like multiple thousands of dollars. So now it's the time to buy if you have some capital and if you wanna really get into mining, I think that's really the time right now to get into it.

- Perfect, that's great advice. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show and thank you for all the amazing info you've been putting out there. I think people are gonna get a lot from this conversation and from the Twitter.

So yeah, I really appreciate your time mate. - Of course, thanks for having me. And yeah, I'm happy to come anytime again if we, who knows, maybe I will have my Bitcoin sous vide or any other project already done and I can talk about it.

- Awesome, well, if I ever have allowed back in the States and you have it running, we'll sit over a stake and some drinks and maybe record in person. - Sounds good. - Thanks for coming on and we'll chat again soon.

- Thank you, thank you. - Thanks again for listening. And if you enjoyed this episode, please do give me feedback on any of the podcasting apps. If you've been sending in Sats via boosts or streaming on any of the podcasting 2.0 apps, then thank you so much.

These Sats are all gonna go back into this month to allow us to give away prizes, send things out and make sure that this month is the best it can be. If you wanna check out the rest of the content, the bite-sized bitcoins and everything else that's coming, it will all be hosted on ungovernable misfits.com.

So check it out. It will also come through in your feeds. Make sure to give a follow to the guests and also the sponsors who are giving away prizes all the way through this month. Thank you so much to all of you for your support.

I really do appreciate it and for all the people listening now, make sure you listen now and try and win these prizes. Thanks again and we'll catch you on the next one.