Bitcoin monthly 0018 - scams, vulnerabilities and seagulls

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah! Oh! The greatest scam in history. Let's get it! Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Alright you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and deliver to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

In this episode of Bitcoin Monthly, I sit down with Brother Rabbit and Antimus. I had the pleasure of catching up with them in person at the Bitcoin Beatra Tree, which was absolutely incredible.

I recorded this about a week ago. It was last Sunday. And it was just so good to do it in person. We sat in a field, sun shining, and got to talk about Bitcoin. I really enjoyed the whole weekend, and I just want to say thank you to Dragon for putting everything on, for organizing it,

and also for doing, for allowing us to use his incredible land, and also for teaching me how to tow my trailer. [Laughs] I towed about ten hours down. I'd never done it before. And he saw me come in and was like, "Oh, I didn't realize you were such a fucking retard.

You can actually need some help here." So he spent an hour of his time very, very kindly teaching me how to tow properly. It made things a lot easier on the way back. So it just shows you the way Bitcoiners are.

Didn't need to do it. Just Bitcoin is helping each other out. And yeah, it was like that all weekend. All different people from all different walks of life just there to push this thing forward and make real friendships and real bonds.

So it was a really special time. Thank you also to FastBitcoins, who not only sponsored this show, but also sponsored a lot of the event. They gave extra sats for prize winners for the quiz and helped out with some of the food and other bits and pieces.

So yeah, thank you to FastBitcoins and thank you for sponsoring the show. I really appreciate it. And for anybody who has not already checked them out, you can check them out at FastBitcoins.com.

They have an incredible service and such a great team. It's good to see a team who actually give back and try and help people in the community, try and put things like this on. You don't see this from some of the bigger exchanges.

And this is just one of the many reasons I love this team so much. Also, I won the quiz, not to rub it into the rest of you, but yeah, I've got some amazing prizes. Picked up my beautiful piece of art from Chief Monkey.

Some hardware from Antimas and SNCC. And yeah, also some sats from FastBitcoins. So thank you very much. And finally, before we dive in, I just want to say thank you to Foundation Devices.

If you haven't checked out one of these devices already, you can go to foundation devices.com. Look at the incredible passport. It is fully open source. It is so beautiful to look at and use.

And they really take their privacy and security seriously. They have an incredible team and the support is amazing. I had so many good conversations while I was away with people asking me questions on this, people who are using them.

And there was a lot of talk also around multisig. Now if you're using multisig, a lot of people would suggest that you have a multi-device setup. If you aren't using Foundation Devices as one of these, I think you are absolutely crazy.

If you have any questions on the device, you can always reach out to me or the team I'll be happy to help with any questions that I can answer. And if I can't, I will pass you on to somebody who can.

If you decide to go ahead and buy one of these, you can use the code bit by bit that will give you $10 off your purchase. If you enjoy the show, I would absolutely love to hear from you any feedback or reviews on any of the podcasting apps would be appreciated.

If you have friends or family that you think could benefit from the show, please do share it. Alternatively, if you have any news, any projects that you've come across that you think are particularly interesting or just want to say hi, you can go to ungovernablemisfits.com.

Enjoy the show. Well, this is a little bit different. So I'll just set the scene. We are in a field here on the Bitcoin feature tree and I've got Antomists to my right. And I am staring at the eyes of Brother Rabbit

and now replacing Q&A because I think he's got a bit too big for his boots. He didn't want to come. He said I don't want to be with the plebs anymore and he's on to bigger, better things.

So, no Q&A this month. And we're just riffing. Well, first of all, I've got to say, it's an absolute shame to not have Q&A here and that was for the whole weekend. But I think maybe just for this weekend, for the retreat also to all the people who organised this.

I mean, it's absolutely amazing. A few days seeing everyone here. Will you here last year, both of you? I couldn't make it last year. I was busy. So it's first year for me. But yeah, it's beautiful here, isn't it?

I'm sure maybe some of you have seen the photos online, Bitcoin retreat that's tweeted out. But it's basically on a beach in Wales. For those that aren't familiar. So it's beautiful here. It's very hot.

I'm very hot. I mean, I'm sleeping in a tent. Pretty toasty. Yeah, it's always at 30 degrees this. I think it's even higher. I think we're at mid 30s or something today. Yeah, what's that in?

It's yank conversion. It's 150 or something. It's hot anyway. But yeah, I went last year. It was 20 people-ish. It was quite small actually. It was about 20 of us. But it was really nice because there was like a height of lockdowns.

Everyone needed just like human interaction with people who weren't like fucking mental. And it was just like, yeah, it was really nice. But this time, like, it's grown. There's food put on.

There's been talks. Dragon has put on a good show here. I think it's fucking awesome. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, the whole bunch of talks and presentations now, the last few days have been really amazing.

Just now one with a setting up more to stick with Blue Wallet. That was really cool. And Neil would kneel. Exactly. Did that from Unchained. That's cool. Getting everyone together with their phones out and setting up more to stick in groups of three.

That was cool. But yesterday also presentation of memorizing seed phrases. That was when I was pretty skeptical as well. I was like, oh, what's this going to be about? But actually a pretty cool concept.

I don't know exactly what the name of the machine is he said. He did it with Super Fat Arrow, wasn't it? Yeah. As MTC and Super Fat Arrow. And yeah, what was it called? Something about like...

Well, the idea is that you have a source of entropy. And with this source of entropy, you create a board of like two-dimensional grid of seed words. So you have this all shuffled through and randomized on this grid.

Then you choose a certain pattern on this grid. So physically you print it out and then you somehow create a pattern that you choose. And this pattern reveals the seed words on this large grid.

So at the end of the day you store this grid securely as you would your seed words. But then when you want to recover, you need this grid to layer on your pattern to then extract the seed.

And I think the idea behind it is that it's a lot easier to memorize patterns than it is to memorize words. And that's leveraging that. So you can... It's a lot easier to memorize 24 words.

But the coolest thing about it is that it's deterministic, this grid, so that you actually have a seed of 12 words that creates the grid. So you can store this seed of 12 words on a traditional steel backup as you word any other.

And then if you import those into the right software, you get the grid and then you layer on your pattern and then you get the last... your actual wallet. So it's pretty cool that you can have the first seed as a kind of plausible deniability where you can put the funds on that and then layer on between.

Is it Bitcoin border wallets? Is that what it was called? Yes. I think the concept came from the ability of how to cross a border without having 12 words or 24 words written down. It's pretty interesting.

I quite like the deterministic element as well because everybody will have a different grid. When you create one, add entropy in to create this grid of words, but it is possible to if you print it out and you burn it or you lose it, you can restore your same grid in the future.

And so that's the idea is that you can memorize the grid, memorize the pattern beforehand, perhaps cross a border, and then restore your wallet when you're on the other side. And I guess you can probably store the grid on a cloud perhaps, on a USB stick, and knowing that if someone was just to get hold of the grid of words,

they don't know what your pattern is and they'd have a good time trying to work out your wallet. Yeah, it's really clever. What was it he was saying about? He did it as like 442 or something like that.

How was he? He used some like a World Cup team formation or something. 66 and then said, so he went, you can go because it's all in columns and rows. So you could say like, you can make that link is like, Oh, it was 1966.

And then this is the 66th row. And then he had a football as formation. Yeah. The squares that he picked out, but you know, you could have like a smiley face on there as well. Yeah. Or in your mind or an L or a letter or something.

Yeah. That's quite clever. And he's big as well. I think just so that everyone had seen this kind of thing. And for the scale is, was it 128 by 2,124? No. I think that was the scale of the whole thing.

2014? 2014. 2048 words. No, 2048. Yeah. 2048 and times 128 for the 128 bits of entropy. No. That was the scale of it. Yeah. I think there's also different grids you can do. So you don't have to have the words as well.

You can have them in hex format. And you can also have them in, you can have them by number as well. So the number on the bit 39 word list. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking, like, when he was saying about it, I was thinking, well, he was saying, oh, you can have as many grids as you want.

And then you can have all those encrypted. So you could have like, you could download 100 different ones and keep them. And then you just remember, my one is number 48 of 100. So people would have to, people would have to, like, guess which one of all of those, then you can have your pattern, which you can keep separate.

And I was thinking, like, you could remember it. But you could also have it on tracing paper or like a still plate or something like that, where when you overlay that over the grid, you're going to see it and remember it.

So you could like, maybe that's something like you're doing with all your plates. If this catches on, then for example, yeah, they could have that and overlay it and then they know, okay, right, that's where it is.

Okay. That's what I was thinking, because I wouldn't trust myself to be like, that's the pattern. And then I like just one day I wake up and I'm like, yeah, what's that pattern again? I think as it's certain use cases, doesn't it?

I don't think maybe for myself, it's sort of like, I'd be looking to store my personal seeds on all the time. Yeah. But it has its certain use cases and it fills that void of maybe a certain use case.

Yeah, like, somebody crossing the border. I mean, that's like, as the name says, as well, I think for short term stuff, this is definitely, but otherwise if you really want to do this long term, you really have to be sure about the setup.

Because I mean, what's really great about the concept is that the opportunities are kind of endless. You can make it as complicated as you want. You can talk about like this grid section or something they named it as like, inception.

Like layers behind layers. Because it's deterministic, you can say, okay, I've got a 12 word seed. This creates a grid where I have a pattern where I get another 12 words and that deterministically creates another grid and so on and so on and so on.

So you could do like 20, 30 grids behind each other until you actually get to the last one or on their way, you could have multiple accounts. So you could have funds stored on different levels of this.

So it gets really complicated really quickly. So there's definitely something that's pretty easy to shut yourself out if you haven't actually thought this through and memorized everything.

But it's a pretty cool concept in of itself and I think if they're like, some kind of, if they're like wallets that implement this or different ways to do that, whether you have some kind of guidelines or some kind of restrictions that there are like a few

different, like, sheems on different difficulty and complexity levels that you can kind of follow that might help. But at the end of the day, yeah, find out sort of decipher himself. I'll get MTC on to do some shilling.

But as far as understanding, it's fully open source, free software for everyone to use, which is pretty cool. What are the talks that we had? You did one on seat signer. Yeah, I did one yesterday morning.

Bright and early. Yeah. Yeah, for context, we arrived like it took like in the morning and I wasn't quite sure I knew we wanted to do a talk at some point and then it got up in the morning and spoke to one of the guys.

It's like camping next to me. Oh man, it's wonderful. It's slept in a bit and he was like, "What are you doing with the seat signer talk? Like 11?" And I was like, "I'm not quite sure. What's the time?"

It was like half past 10. I was like, "Okay. Bigger down there." But it was fun. It was really cool. I mean, there are a lot of people there. I wasn't expecting so many people to come around.

The tent was full. I was speaking about seat signer for a while, about steel plates and stuff and then afterwards a few people came by and just did a few tests but people played around with it and stuff.

It was definitely nice. It was also crazy. I wasn't expecting so many people to like maybe know about it but actually like having used it and it was a pretty big name already and that's quite cool because it's difficult to know.

Like on Twitter, you're in your kind of echo chamber and you've got your followers and your followers who kind of all know what's going on but like how many of the people who are here like actually knew about it and stuff, it was definitely cool to see how the name has become.

You did quite well as well because I think because it was the first talk, quite a few people came and watched to see what it was all about but you know since then it's been very much sort of those because it's you know, a getaway on the beach, you know, been going

down to the beach and going in the sea and what not, I missed a few talks myself but then you know made some other ones so it's been a good balance I think. It's not rammed down your throat, it's just quite a relaxed feel here isn't it?

Yeah absolutely. It's really fun, real fun but going down to the beach man here, I mean this is absolutely beautiful. I haven't been at the beach for ages and it's just like so refreshing.

I mean it's not just like physically going in but just like being there in the atmosphere and the wind and the air. You go for a swim? Yeah man. It's a bit nit-y. I've not got any. Really?

No I've not been in yet. How are you surviving man? I did last year. I did last year and I like wore it as a badge of honor, I was going round telling you what I was like yeah I went for a swim in the sea in the well.

Yeah that was been cold, yeah it was yeah but I'm pretty tough but this year I was like. And last year it wasn't as hot was it? So this year is probably easiest. Yeah. That's true. That's true.

That's why I haven't done it. Exactly. It's challenging. But yeah it is beautiful, it is proper nice. It's a better like feel to like go to a conference, there's a bit of stuffy in a company, you're like inside and it's like bright lights and loads of people and it's packed or for any

conferences and stuff that I've been to it's like that and then here it's like you can just like fuck off and do your own thing and like we are now like we've just wandered off in one of the tents and we're like sat in my caravan doing the park and then people

are doing all these little things everywhere it's more like a mini little festival vibe isn't it? Yeah it's got nice. Yeah. You've got those that bought their kids with them as well. Yeah.

Kids running around playing together as a few dogs. Yeah a few dogs. Had a dog show last night. Nice. Yeah the kids were very keen to dox rabbit they're like asking how old are you? What's your real name?

Yeah. What's your? Yeah got that. He's like fucking little third. I was wearing a cap on it with the FGC9 which is the 3D printed gun on the cap and one of the kids came up to me and asked me why am I why I got a glue gun and then it's outside bag.

Arts and crafts. Arts and crafts yeah. But it's been lovely. It's been lovely so we're sort of staying till we're recording this on the Sunday. Staying till tomorrow which was quite nice I think last year was a bit of a shorter trip but yeah we've got the Sunday and have a fire on the beach which would be nice.

Yeah. And all travelling back all over the place very very nice I think next year I wonder if it would be bigger next year because it's gone from like 20 people to 100 it'd probably be bigger again.

And it's space enough I mean this could be could be big I hope it doesn't like loses fire at some point. I wonder whether that was picked up. Probably was a snore in every single doesn't matter where you are man it follows you around.

It's quite nice that you get to see it because like every time we record you it's like I can hear your dog like in the background like snorting away and now you see what I deal with. Yeah.

Yeah. Now I see it. I was imagining like a like a wolf's hound like a shoulder height of like one and a half meters or something. Oh man. He's been playing with the other dogs isn't he as well.

Yeah absolutely loving life of course on carnage. What was the other talks we've had I'm trying to think there was one on anthropology I missed most of that last night yeah what else we had there's one coming up I think about the block stream satellite oh yeah that's going to be quite cool.

I don't know if that's going to work because I said to dragon earlier I said oh how's it how's the set up and goes I've got no fucking clue how it's like you're doing it and he's like yeah yeah but I'm just going to stand around lots of smart people and then scratch

my head and hope they fix it I was like winning strategy that's pretty much being my strategy since I started fucking around with Bitcoin and scratch your head around smart people. It's funny it comes with the middle of nowhere where there's like no reception there's no

sort of phone signal if you want phone signals sort of walk right up to the top of the hill they have kindly put on a internet route for us so they run sort of comes back to the tent to check their social so to speak and then and goes back off but it's been quite nice

to get away from that already isn't it yeah it has actually yeah I haven't really been on anything since I got here just like got some joy I put a show out yesterday just because I was so overdue but other than that I've just enjoyed it and then meeting like nims

who I've chatted to for ages and like not met and then it's like it's so nice like I've chatted to obviously I've obviously met rabbit but it's the first time you guys met it's first time we met and I was like this is so like fucking surreal cuz we chat all the time

and there's a few others who I won't I won't say names but a few others were I was like ah fucking hell look at that all the time yeah it's so weird it's so surreal absolutely cuz it's so fascinating as well how quickly like the perception of it like the they merge

like cuz I can't even say beforehand now like even like when we met like obviously like knowing like the voice and so on yeah um you always see like somehow associate some kind of a person behind it but now like it's taken a day and it's like that's the only option

there is like that's it like it's combined straight out a picture of you in my head and you and nothing like it cuz I kept looking you know do you know what that picture is yeah I know yeah yeah okay what was it yeah I was thinking I was thinking skinny okay I was thinking

skinny I was thinking mousey hair like medium length okay and about your height but like okay that sounds hot but then I don't want to give anything away yeah I don't want to give anything else away about and docks you now but yeah it just wasn't the same I was

like I wouldn't have like I wouldn't have if if I was to pick like who's your top 10 guesses a foot of the I wouldn't have hit you at all whereas Q&A I knew exactly I was like that's exactly how I imagined and the same you and with rabbit as well as exactly how I'd imagined

yeah yeah yeah as well I mean that's it's pretty accurate yeah cuz he looks exactly like an actual rabbit that's always what I pictured and then he hopped over and I was like how can I know I thought I had like an image of that you know like being like a I'm probably better

looking in real life than you thought I think that's the thing because it's hard to imagine yes um I was picturing like a like a bouncer guy oh okay like bored yeah like large like tattooed kind of oh really yeah that's why I was I was picturing what actually two foot

fat be the tracks along the ground oh man yeah it's nice though to actually have that interaction absolutely that's the thing you missed like on Twitter like all like behind a keyboard you don't especially with me like being so dyslexic I always feel like when

this conversation's going on on like telegram and stuff like I'm just like I can't be bothered because it just doesn't mean and it like it just goes in one ear like the other like it's and then like you get to have these conversations yeah so good yeah just to get a flow I mean

it's not just like interchanging information I mean that's the thing like even if it's like phone calls and we've had phone calls for the year stuff but it's still just completely different if you have like a few days time to sit down yeah how do you fix the nim problem

it's so like rewarding doing this but then there's always that trade-off of like meeting other people like there's a certain point where it's like you've spoken for a long time you get this connection and then you're like okay well that's fine but then like people

you've never met you're like mmm but how do you fix that sometimes I thought like oh I'm going to have a mask or something like that with the nim or like well maybe you do some sort of like VR-y type you know there's like range you go where you have like the headphones

on there's no actual music oh yeah it's like a silent rave yeah maybe you could do like everyone's there when they see each other and VR it's their nim do you know what I mean so you actually shake the hand and talk so it's like as they smile and talk and you interact

in real life you see them nim so that makes sense I know what you mean but no but in not doing it online yeah yeah we come here and meet up yeah yeah so you're still here and you're still shaking hands and you're still having a drink together or whatever but you're

just there's like some sort of way VR would have to be at least as good as like real life for it to be because it'd be weird to sit here it's such a beautiful surroundings with all these real people that's true yeah that's true stuff on like looking at like that's true

Mac's going for a dip with VR headset yeah maybe I haven't thought that through I was just thinking like there must be a way to do it because it's such a it's such a difficult like especially bringing family and stuff like I was like oh fuck I was like really stressing

about that I was like but then there's that there's always that trade office I thought like having kids that's like tell your kid that like there's got a different name now it's like yeah that's not going to run around doxing yeah but you know I think it's also

like picking and choosing your meetups as well because deadly honest this sort not not I'm no concerned coming at all but I'm a bit more try to be a bit more privacy centric yeah you know I personally book the ticket here under a different name yeah and then only

introduce myself as sort of rabbit when I sort of felt comfortable people are like you know I know you guys so it's this cool but you know certainly pick and choose pick and choose your meetups so to speak and you know other meetups that go to our bit more sort

of privacy orientated yeah whereas you know if you were just to say you know go to a random Bitcoin conference you can probably you know bet on it that is you're going to bump into all sorts of people you don't know who they are yeah whereas this is this is a little

bit more smaller scale there's about a hundred people here maybe if I think I think it was a hundred was the amount of tickets that were allowed they sold out and then at least ten people either bailed couldn't come yeah like whatever so it's probably about 90 this

beautiful there's a couple different campsites here as well I mean to be honest I'd recommend coming coming next year if you want to want to get away it's you know only a few days as well yeah and there's different campsites here as well like different areas you can

pitch up on I'm camped on a hill so every time I wake up you're right down the bottom but you know you've got the view though you've got the view literally all around the bay yeah whereas where where where Max is this camping it's a bit flatter isn't it it's flatter

it's got electric hookup but no real views to speak of actually but I tell you the Bitcoin is a come prepared you know there's a fellow near me he's got a stack of solar panels to fold out ones yeah another guy with sort of a generator with the other styling on the top

of his wagon I don't think he got it working actually you look cool there it was camped right next to him unfortunately get it working so no free internet but he seems pretty pretty great so he's got it in his house I think 130 megabyte download that's pretty serious

there's a pain for it I think just over a hundred quid yes not cheap but a month and you have to buy the hardware as well which you own yeah when you sign up I think about 500 quid to sign up and get that hard work yeah the download speed I think isn't the

big issue but it's latency is more of a thing isn't it or I don't know sure I've heard good things I know a few people have got like people who are in the sticks and they can't get internet and they've used it and they're like this is actually brilliant yeah and like pretty

quick and then the other thing is if you're moving a lot so like I pay internet which I paid for the last year and a half and I can't use it because every place I move they go we don't provide that and I'm like well I've moved for like five times yeah and you still

come provide and I'm paying like 50 quid a month and it's it's fucking annoying whereas with this if you're moving about you pay it you move well as long as you can get it working yeah it's pretty good for that sort of stuff I think it's a reason I think it's like more

for like rural areas like we are out on the population densities and very high because I think like in I mean obviously if they're not too many people using it at the moment but still in that I think in like big cities it isn't too good because some of you're sharing

it with a lot of others as well and like out especially if you're out I mean that's where the big benefits come in yeah great to see that one out new sponsor maybe we're just shilling away yeah so much for doxy man and doxy everything to them man so Bitcoin wise

what we got any any updates any things that are noteworthy or I did a quick scan um the one that's definitely important to mention is BTC pay server the 1.6.0 so I think the most important thing to to say is that this is a vulnerability fix there was pretty critical

bug found some have found this but handed it in privately to them so it's not known at the moment what the vulnerability was but definitely update to this new release the 1.6.0 as soon as possible and the bug will be revealed in six to twelve months you heard that mr. crown

though it now man we're gonna get rugs you can update why you're here I can't do it anyway because I'm a retard over there it's gonna be mr. crown this you do that yeah um yeah and then a few new features um there's a lightning dashboard um so introduced the dashboard I think

in the last v1.5.0 was the last one they had a new dashboard graph and this is now for lightning as well um and receipts and automated emails so this just makes it all a bit um a bit easier to integrate when you're actually selling stuff and you want the customers to to get receipts and

also emails when stuff when payments go through when stuff is sent out or something yeah you'll have to do another catch up one because you know there's less there's barely anything in here I'm not really you're not going through a chance to go through it no but definitely glad we called that

one because that's the most important um but otherwise maybe we can give a few people oh there you go I've got I've gone update go on of course uh samurai wallet is updated to uh v0.99.98 e closer to 1.0 it's probably worth mentioning there's two really nice features um that have

been included one of them is in app web view so previously um on previous versions if you wanted to look up a transaction from the wallet and you click you click the transaction ID and it takes you to uh it takes you to your your browser of choice on your phone you know open up and if you're running

a VPN yeah your dog's sure I pay yeah exactly that um so now uh because samurai wallets got tall built in um when you click on the transaction ID um tall opens within that so it's got an in-house in app web view so you can check your transactions within the app that's quite nice everyone seems

to have raved about that feature um oh I've seen on twitter when people have updated my favorite one I think it's get on the on song hero um labeling labeling yeah so big labeling enhancement not to get into the weeds really but um it just makes labeling really easy labeling in samurai was

always possible and and fairly simple to do but this this makes it that on the transaction screen um because samurai wallet you have the ability to to do some quite complex transactions like stonewall um stonewall x2 um that can create multiple output addresses from that transaction so

after you've done one of those transactions and you do want to label every single output of a stonewall x2 or a stonewall um that can be a bit more time-consuming or you might have to look up the transaction or block explorer first to see which addresses they were but now you just tap on

the transaction and add a note to the transaction and any associated utxo in your wallet or have that label added so it's I think that's an on some on some that's really important it was horrible the ux before like not to slag it off but I think it was a you I had to contact say how the fuck do I

label things and it was like you had to go into the top right onto the three dots and then into what was it used to do that then into um utxo unspent unspent outputs and then you had to press something else yeah it was a bit it was just like not obvious yeah so i was so now you just literally

you just tap in done yeah really really and um also um sort of a bit bug fix uh on the encrypted backup as well and that's been included on that so um I think there's been users report to date that they're encrypted backup isn't saving every time which is important when you're making you know

adding labels to utxos that if you need to restore in the future you want those labels to be included yeah for sure so um there's there's been a bug fix on that which ensures that continues to ensure that your backup is being saved properly nice encrypted yeah so should you need to uh yeah restore

in the future um yeah she'll be good and about this um like the the block explorer or that that viewing transaction is it now possible to actually put in your own like URL for a for a block explorer do you know no i don't think so not in a moment that would be nice yes if you could um say put in

your own uh i guess if you're you can you can run mempool on your own node can't exactly yes that's quite cool maybe you should make a pull request yes please yeah because i mean that was one thing that that was literally one of the only things that always like it was always in the back of my mind

when i was recommending the wallet um because i always thought like at the beginning that it was so often that i i just clicked on one of these transactions just just by accident you're just scrolling or something you just tap to stop the scrolling and boom and suddenly it opens up and you

know okay i've already sent a request out to the server and you're like this is supposed to be a privacy wallet these are small things that are actually not too hard to mitigate against that this doesn't happen by chance exactly i've done it definitely done it and oxt it goes out to

it was correct yeah um and obviously it's a great addition now that it goes out by at all yeah so now you don't have the problem of of doxing right p but still there are people who host themselves and just don't want to query uh someone else's servers and i mean that's one basic bit

quite uh in general um and it can't be too hard i'd guess to to just implement a field to in the settings just to say um an alternative um block explorer yeah to open that up figure that sounds like a poor request to me yeah sounds like a winner no it's something i use as well yeah it doesn't

know it's just we we we're all on our own nodes and you've got your uh your own men poor explorer looking up transactions on your own yeah own block explorer so do you have a block explorer on um on uh roon dojo uh yeah so roonon has the ability to have two different block

explorers uh it comes default because roon and dojo packages in dojo which is dojo is released by samurai wallet uh roon and dojo takes that and adds in some nice ui so yeah when when when if you run a dojo for whatever node implementation you you do have built in rpc explorer okay um it's sort of

like i think more of like you'd say more the og explorer it's been around for a lot longer than than most um so yeah that's that's one possibility and the other option on roonin is you can install uh mempool as well so you get your own um dot onion address that you can navigate to on tour

what i like about that is that um you can uh bookmark on your mobile phone which is quite nice um so you can open your tour browser right there on your mobile app um and access it that way should you need to yeah but then it would be even easier to just set that as a default as soon as you hook

up your wallet to the dojo yeah automatically use the the mempool or they'll be a proper sport exactly because then you don't even have to ask and maybe then in the set i mean if you're not using your node and everyone use your own node definitely um but just that that's automatically

built in and then maybe that'll be even nicer to have an additional field if you do want to use a separate one if you're having if you have multiple nodes and you want to use something else that's faster or whatever but to have that like that's so often a talking point especially with with

the privacy wallets is that defaults matter and so important to not give the user or to guide the user by and at the same time giving optionality but that actually the defaults are really important to to not trip people up and this would be an easy one in my opinion nothing you're right what

percentage of people are running with VPNs on their phones when using it i don't know i don't know what percentage of people do it like even with me i run it sometimes just doesn't fucking work null vad i'm supposed to be good and like yeah okay you can pay a bitcoin and stuff but sometimes

i'm just like nothing's loading and then i'll like switch location nothing is loading sometimes i just go i fucking know i need to use it now so i'll switch it off and then you can forget yeah so even if you do run it you forget and then you're like oh no i'm end of a stake yeah absolutely

easy enough even if you do run one it's easy enough i've not had too much bad experience with VPNs it was only recently that i i was running a VPN on my route router and i was away from home for a weekend and at the moment i'm in experimenting with running a VPN on your router uh home router and

i had my nodes going through that VPN yeah so when i was away from my home for the weekend and i i was i was uh you know wanted to make a spend bitcoin i couldn't because my it wasn't that my node went down it was that my VPN on my router had just gone down so there's another thing there now

you can i could have done a bit again it's more of a technical setup you can set up like a wire guard server so i'd be able to access my home internet while i'm away and i could have then reset it but you know when you take these things um you know in your own hands you become

the one that's got a troubleshoot so yeah yeah so i've learned my lesson i'm gonna have to take that away but i've never i've never really had much bad experience with VPNs personally do you have any advice on ones you think are particularly good uh as you mentioned mold vad yeah it's nice

to be able to pay in bitcoin and uh certainly you know pay with well poor bitcoin yeah if you can um and uh i vpn i vpn i vpn i think recently uh mold vad did a i had a third party order and and that third party order it was confirmed that then they're not saving any customer data how can you

confirm that i don't know the ins and outs i'm guessing because it's done by third party you're relying on a third party being honest in in that but do you know what i mean like haven't you prove you don't have something do you know like you can prove you have something if you like sign something

but like can you say i don't have something but i don't do you know what i mean like how do you get you like it in the extreme you can't prove a negative yeah yeah so i mean i don't know they're must i don't know if they can conclusively actually prove it maybe there's some clever

technical way that i don't know but i i i don't know the answer to the exam question but the the right thing is they do release their report right so at least there's an ability to go in trying understand exactly how that order was carried out yeah but also if you pay with bitcoin

and it's whirlpool sats you do isolate and that's you're like going onto your life facebook or whatever and like you know if you're doing that kind of stuff then maybe but if you're using it and then you're sending bitcoin transactions and they're not linked to ID anyway even if they did store data

then they couldn't necessarily link that it's you yeah i think yeah they have their ip and also just from like user like behavior as well um there are if they really want to i mean that's how so many profiles are also like set up it's just like the way like how fast you move through mouse

like how fast you type and and all that kind of stuff like what they can they can work out who yeah i can see what sort of screen size you're using yeah i think if you fingerprint your computer yeah so you know you know this is where um interesting they'll be like this is definitely

magna because he's fucked everything up consistently no one else has this user profile yeah yeah it is and it's really accurate as well uh like there are some people who like say i don't saw some guy in an interview who said like he'd tried to train to type like he rhythm it like

in like not in a rhythm right um so that is like always like variable i just like dude i mean that's that's proper and then at the end of the day i mean you always have to be keeping changing it up because if it's i mean i don't know but that's like that's like what's your threat model i guess is

the yeah yeah i guess for some people yeah okay but to tie it back i mean did that with the update for for samurai i mean that's really good to see in the first step yeah that would be wonderful to see i'm definitely taking a look into putting in a poor request well done samurai should we talk

about someone who's not done something so well samurai's done something very well and then on the other side but come to come to campus um should we talk about that oh yeah yeah i'm really looking forward to it man so i've covered compass mining for a year a year and so right at the

beginning when the alarm bells were going when was that june july i think it was a bit late i think it was the august and september batch that were delayed that was it and so there was the delays and we were saying you know this isn't great and then we sort of followed it through and they were

giving some reef not refunds but they were sort of but basically saying we're not going to get your miners online when we told you they were going to go online but uh we're going to give some credit which was like not it wouldn't cover the amount of stats that you'd have actually

got because the hash rate was really low it was about half wasn't it about that time it was like after the trying to think in the in the dip it though the low point was like 13 and the credits were free free hosting is that free hosting for x amount a month yes yeah so you did better than

me on it because it was a funny thing is at the beginning they handed out for each delay i think you just got a fixed rate of something like five hundred dollars per machine or something like that and i think that covered like the first two months or something and then it was delayed a third

and a fourth time and then they had it handed out another five hundred dollars per machine and that yeah that was i mean as you said a lot less than you would have mined but okay they were like handing this out and then they set a date everyone who was mining before that that was it like they

had the miners were up and running they got their credits and finished and then everyone else who got their miners online a day later and beyond i think this was the end of the middle of December or something got an entire year free hosting yeah for each miner yeah so i think we were both on

on the cliff on either side of that date yeah so i didn't get the extra year and i remember reaching out to them saying listen like you've delayed me like four months and every time it was we were reported on all this but it was like it's going to be on next month it's going to be

a month late okay and then it gets the next month yeah it's going to be on tomorrow oh no not really it's going to be another month and then it gets the end of that month not another month and then mine finally went online and i was like oh i've heard from everyone else they're getting this year

free which you know still wouldn't cover the loss but like it'd be pretty good but i haven't got it in my dash one i know you don't get that i want the fuck don't i get that oh because you actually went on within this date so you were actually only delayed like four months whereas these people

were delayed four months in one week and so you don't get it i'm like you dirty bastards like you that's freaking and so i won't be alone in that again like if you go back and check the tapes we've had many fucky wick gibbs moments that is a line that's been repeated in most episodes more than we

can count more than we can count and uh he's now stepped down so that's the ceo he stepped down and the cf f as well so stepped down not looking good so that's not generally good sign not normally what you want to see we've had our problems everyone in russia

has basically had their miners seized and then what are the updates but they're like where are we at now i saw something about a um then using a third party hosting facility i don't know the ins and outs of it i've seen it i've seen it through twitter really um this hosting facility for

for i'm not i'm not following it in detail but from what i'm led to believe allegations are that compass haven't paid yeah i heard that money so i think what that's lit what what that's come to is that there's been lots of people at that facility who've basically had their machines turned

off right yeah and i think now that compass and i went into dispute with that facility is to where to go from here and i think they've issued um sort of court filings right to try and solve that one yeah i've always heard that yeah there's been a lot of conflicting information going around

and i mean everyone can make up their own mind on what they believe and what they don't believe but the most like um or the two sides of the argument are let's start on a bit earlier there's generally they only use like third party posting services so that's like that they're they're deal from the

beginning i think they've they have been working on setting up their own facilities but i don't know if they're running by now so basically all of it is in third party contracted hosting facilities um and this one provider um has i think is about five percent of their total hash rate so it's not

like that all compass customers are affected by this it is a smaller group but obviously still yet not desirable but the statement that we came out this this uh company um that was hosting the facility they accused compass of paying multiple monthly bills just too late and then also a couple

of bills not at all so it just failed to pay uh totally and compass then um didn't put out a statement saying we can't really say anything because we've filed charges against them so we're advised by lawless to not say anything obviously yeah the so the the accusation from the one side was out in

public and there was no rebuttal from the other side so everyone was quick to accuse compass um the the most cohesive argument from or information from the other side um and i obviously don't know if this is correct but i think it's important to uh everyone has this information as well

is that uh an insider put out some some information saying that the hosting facility company had a variable contract like electricity price rate contract with their electricity provider and they'd given compass a fixed rate and now obviously over the last year with all the

what with everything going on uh prices have gone through the roof and so this hosting facility company wasn't able to pay the uh their costs so they charged compass more than was agreed in the contract and so compass said we won't pay that and that is why they this this other company

put out the same saying that they're not fulfilling their duties and that's why compass then sued them saying um you want more than than stated in the contract now the thing is even if that is true and i'm not saying it is i don't know this is kind of also um here's say um but even if it is true

it is still a fucking bad light on compass because either they didn't do their due diligence on checking if their hosting provider has the same rate as they're passing on or better so they know that they can do this long term or they knew that they had a variable rate and didn't give a fuck about

it and knew if shit hits the fan it's not our problem is their problem and it's the problem of our customers because they've got their machines there so either way even if that is and that is the most favorable situation compass could even be in is still a shit show for them it's a hard one

because it's like they've shown so many times how they treat people over the last year when you see something like that you want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt but to me i'm just like the likelihood is like if they keep fucking people over then they're probably gonna keep doing that

and if you see the CEO and CFO stepping down i had a conversation with them a few times where i was like for a long time it's very reasonable with them and i was like look i know shit happens for whatever reason there's a mistake but i feel because i've paid you a certain amount of money

for a service that you told me you couldn't give me and for hardware you told me you can give me now you're telling me you can't give me it you can't give me the hardware i wanted all the time it was when i got online that's not my fucking issue that's your issue like that's you can't

fulfill what you've charged me for so why should i pay you you know you know what i mean like yeah and they're basically saying well tough shit yeah that's pretty much i mean like it was like well tough shit like yeah we've missled you so what fuck off yeah and so that was the that was the big

issue so if they do that then i'm thinking well you know who who knows but it's definitely a difficult situation because you know anyone who's now finally online it's like well how long before something happens where they owe money to other people and then what happens with your miners are

they taken because this thing folds like what like what happens with those miners but then most of the people like for me personally why do i have the miners there one i'm in the year i didn't listen to myself if i'm not hosting it it's not my hash my own fault that was done that's one but

two was like well it's 30p a good one out here so six cents or whatever it was seven cents sounded pretty good so if i get it sent to myself here a will they do it at all will they even send it be how much is it going to be with customs and shipping and all that shit how long will it take how long

will i be offline and then will i even get it at all or will they just completely fuck me so and then where will i plug it in because i've got no way to plug it in i paid so much money so you're almost forced into the situation where you're like i just have to wait until my miner

gets fucking taken probably but what else do i do yeah and how many people are in that situation i hope there's no issues with the facility or something yeah exactly it's on the multiple fronts isn't it yeah well done compass well they've just got rid of 15% of their staff okay and i think

um the rest of their staff have taken paycups well so obviously something's uh something's rumbling yeah hmm well so we can't say definitely what's happening but it doesn't seem good i would say probably if you're in the us and you have hosting with them maybe fucking try and take those machines

back or if you're somewhere that has reasonable power probably think about taking them back but that you've got this thing where like the machines are half the value they were a few months ago so if you can't host them yourself and you try and sell them yeah i mean there are a few ways

you can play this i mean you can either say i'll just let it run out and and take the risk of of something happening uh to to the to compass itself that that they just can't give you back the the miners um you could try and find someone to sell it to then just have it delivered to you and sell

it to whoever wants to do that like via twitter or something you know personally because that way you're not giving compass a cut in the sale um and you don't have to dox yourself um yeah because they make you do that exactly if you want to sell via their marketplace you have to dox yourself so

that's something everyone should try to avoid other than if you've already dox yourself then might as well do that as well um but otherwise what you also could do is just say okay even if my electricity price is so high um at home that it's um just mining a huge loss um is not just like five 10 percent

but it's like 20 30 40 percent um then you could also just say okay i'll just have them delivered home and i'll just put them in my basement and in a year's time or two i might get more than i would now you can speculate on the hardware price too those are all obviously

variables and it depends on what your situation is like um it's the one thing i can say i mean obviously if you're in the u.s i think um it's a no-brainer because you don't have a problem with with shipping with customs um and also electricity is pretty cheap comparatively um yeah so for them

definitely um here it's a different situation but one thing to be very clear and it should be clear thing from our conversation but anyone who's thinking about buying some miners with customers with compass just like don't do it like literally don't do it go to the mirror look yourself in the

eye and just slap yourself hard let's go do better do better yeah don't even think about it it's uh it's a big problem the other thing i was gonna say is like um mentioned it on the last pod so i've got this new sponsor anonymous sponsor which is fucking cool uh someone who maybe you don't know

no neither really know oh yeah i know you missed every time yeah they're just sorry but yeah i've not heard that one yeah so anonymous sponsor and i said about that reached out to me by email and just said in short i like the show i like that you don't have sponsors that are dirty dirty fucks

like a lot of other shows do so he said look i want to see the show continue i want foundation i'm very comfortable with like fast bitcoins and comfortable with because they let me say don't use them like i literally say any other don't use a kwati service but if you're not

going to listen to me and you have to fucking do it then use them and they're decent and they don't know what your funds but it's very difficult for me to find anyone else who i can be honest with and if you go with like a block fire where you go with a compass you get loads of money but

you're dumping on your listeners because you get that money out from they listen they get fucked and then unless you are a really bad person you should feel bad about that because you're like people have trusted me okay he reached out and just said that i want to sponsor the show i want

to take a slot and i was like what do you mean you want to take a lot of what do you want to say i don't say anything i just want to push the idea of podcasting 2.0 here's like i want to push the idea that we don't have these shitty companies infiltrating and causing issues in the space

because it really is like a big fucking problem and it's a big problem if you're doing a podcast who do you choose? whoever you choose there's some risk and then you are responsible for that i would feel responsible they've done it now but like a foundation didn't get batch 2 out

i was already thinking fuck who's used that code what if they spent money like what do i do if it doesn't go out then i feel bad like do i try and somehow make them whole like what do you know what i mean like what do you actually do so anyway this guy's just reached out or guy or

girl don't know and just said i want to sponsor show for six months see where you are in the six months i don't want anything for it i just want to see the thing continue and so he's covering the cost of uh ever slot which is pretty fucking cool like it's um it was very unexpected but yeah the

point i'm trying to make is like we need to push back i have a lot of respect for matt and marty for pulling it eventually i chatted a little bit with matt in the background about it and he was fucking devastated about what happened and then not just said it but when this was a mistake

let's pull it and they did i think they're the anyone who did yeah yeah certainly hear them what's happening on some other podcasts don't you which just doesn't sit right with me and it doesn't sit right with me but this anonymous sponsor was really fucking angry and they're like

it is not acceptable i think the point is that like this is supposed to be a new financial system there's supposed to be like getting away from the old fiat fuckery getting away from the lies and the cheating and fucking people over and like all that shit that is in the legacy system

we can't be bringing that here it doesn't have a place here and so i don't think we should be allowing that to continue so like me going forward with any sort of sponsorship unless they are absolutely ones that i really feel comfortable really trust there's just no chance and i want

to go more towards the 2.0 more towards that side because then we can sit and like we can say fuck you what gives we can say like kyc's fucking stupid thing to be doing like don't do it it's really dumb it's pretty fucking stupid to do it for 99 percent of cases and so we can say that without

being like swayed and yeah at the end of the day it's value for value so you're the people listening are the people who are providing value back to you and you're providing value to them so the incentive models are like aligned yeah and there's no one else like from the outside who's got a

got like an influence on what's allowed to be said and what's not allowed to be said in the feedback loop in if it's just you and the and the listeners is just so much more efficient yeah and i think that's going to be i mean obviously people have to use it and and they're

also like with um sittel dispatch and stuff like they've been trying to do that as well yeah like no sponsors and stuff and i think i mean it's a tough thing to get off the ground but i think if you do get it off the ground it can be a viable opportunity yeah i think going forward

it will be i know from like from doing it you it wouldn't keep you in biscuits at the moment but in theory like if you if you think about it if you're a listener and you go on to a podcast that shills you block five or compass the value that you've got from that show is very fucking

negative it's cost you a lot of money so there'll be people out there who have listened to a podcast they've listened about compass and they've gone i'm gonna buy whatever this package of 10 miners and once i'm gone well 12 miners i'm always going to go every month and oh it's a really good

idea and i've in the ad read it says that they're great and that they've made loads of money doing it and then they do that and it's like how much you lost 60 grand a hundred grand wherever it is it's like would that person be better listening to a show that isn't shilling shit and then they

actually just pay to get the good quality information like and it makes sense but then parting with sats is very difficult yeah parting with sats is really like i like the fountain app i think that's really cool there's still things to be worked out like it's it's not perfect yeah but

pretty good but how many normal people are going to be using it at this point so it's kind of like it's it feels like it's very very early but logically it makes sense to like and if you have you know if you have 10 000 people listening to a show and they you know have a couple of people who are

giving 10 dollars and a couple of people are giving you know 50 dollars and then you have most people giving a penny or two but you still it makes it actually like a viable thing yeah and that's what Adam Curry's been doing obviously yeah obviously that's a big show but like they just say whatever

they want they don't have to worry about being deplatformed or like losing sponsorship or anything they're just like it's on RSS like fucking stop us yeah at the end of the game the day is the numbers game yeah so you just need to get up there um and i mean this is so amazing that i'm to hear the

story of this guy girl it may be literally like i mean like he's bought my eyes out it's like i mean he's a fucking hero or she um but i mean to to do that and to have i mean to piss to be pissed off okay yeah what there a lot of people are pissed off but then to come to that conclusion and say

that i'm i'm willing to put put my money on the line or to invest my money into this to get this forward and to give you the opportunity to do that as well that is fucking amazing they're paying the same as the other sponsors for six months thanks oh she's like they're like send me an address

now i'll send it over to you up from i was like you've sure they're like yes they're like yes on any medication or something yeah they're like yes i really fucking care about bitcoin when it's important that people speak freely and i won't have this sponsorship bullshit with all the major

podcasts and i was like fucking whoever you are i love you that's fucking so kind like it's a massive makes a big difference to my life something like that so yeah like maybe more of that happens who who knows but um it was pretty tough like literally like went through time this isn't i was like

like watery i'd like i can't fucking believe this like a couple of years ago we were talking about it like a couple of years ago i'd like write uh full email like full letters to invite people on the pod because i didn't know anyone and i was like really nervous about i remember

sending one out to Pierre Richard and i was like i'd like oh yeah i've read this from you and i've listened to noted and and like it's long for me that i really respect what you've written and i'd love to chat to you and i like remember sending it and being like really nervous and then yeah

i was like yeah cool come on and i was like fucking that was easy and i thought i'm being like fucking so nervous about doing it and then like yeah just like thinking like that's where i where it started and like now that i have access to a lot of people and can chat to so many people it's such a cool

thing and then someone does that like oh this is so sick this is something awesome so whoever you are fantastic whoever you are it's pretty cool cheers to you yeah on the podcasting 2.0 stuff any thoughts

everyone's like uh it's a tricky thing and i mean i heard Matt's talked about it a few times um i've played different models of how to set this up i mean obviously there's like the the standard ways and just to set like a certain amount per minute that you send and then like you can put up

like boosts or something you know if you if you like if there's something that that drops in the content that you like appreciate um you can just send a boost then there are things like sending in messages and stuff they're read out um that you can do with um that are paid for

i mean those are the things that the people have implemented and i know over that i do personally find it a little bit gimmicky yeah yeah devil's advocate no i'd rather people um i think i i appreciate and and do very much agree that it's the you know value for value model

and supporting those that you listen to or interact with i just find it a little bit it reminds me of the other i'm not i've never really been into gaming do you ever watch like a streamer and when they're streaming they get like stars in the corner people that have sent the money

and they'll read out a shout out it's very sort of similar to that and i just find it a little bit gimmicky and i don't i don't know i i personally prefer just to donate some sats to to somebody or a free and open source or whatever you know take it away from podcasting yeah free and open source

projects or or buy something of them like you know yourself max you sat here wearing one of your ungovernable misfits yeah i supported myself by buying this yeah it's very nice t-shirt there's a bit of a few others a few of us here um seeing where your t-shirts but you know you're supporting

in that in that sense um then sort of uh uh are having a an app on your phone which is dedicated to 2.0 sort of thing um and you know you find it with like uh you know lightning um which i'm allowed to believe is non-prestodial as well so there's no i think i think with breeze you are

in control okay but with fountain it's okay so that's the one i've heard with fountain it's non-cosodial but again like people get annoyed with me with this but i don't care with 20 quid 50 quid i don't actually don't care it's like if they're gonna walk away and rug pull me i'll say

oh fuck that was annoying but i'm not going to cry about 20 quid so i understand that it's like you don't want to do that with all your funds but does it really matter with small amount like how much are you going to do like most people are streaming you know 100 sats a minute or 50 sats a

minute or whatever they're doing like it's you don't you need top it up every week or two it's like and you earn with them as well so like when you listen to adverts you earn on fountain so a lot of people like say you're listening to a pod and you earn your couple of thousand sats you might

listen to the end of that and go you haven't even loaded it but you might go oh that was actually a good podcast i'll now send half of it back or a percentage of it back so i kind of i get your point who's the first guys who do the what's his name pool uh sphinx yeah and then like

i remember setting myself up on that and being like oh this is really sick and the idea is cool because it's like my proper micro payments like streaming money i was like that's really fucking cool and then like i played around with it and set myself up and then like had the wallet and then

the app kept breaking and then paul was trying to help me with it and someone else was trying to help me it wouldn't fucking work and i was like and then like and then there just couldn't access it anymore i was like i've just lost the funds well that that was annoying so it's like these things

kind of come and go but do you not think that in theory not necessarily for podcasting but in theory for like paywalls for like articles or like say you had this kind of thing where it's like you you have in your browser okay if the article or like the paywall is less than a dollar

just fucking pay it just do it and it's like set and then there's no ads there's no pop-ups there's no ads there's none of that bullshit like would you not prefer for world like now it's not really viable because you don't make enough i think you know like whatever you're earning with with like

the ads you probably earn 5% of that yeah i think what we'll test it i'm not too sure i think what we'll test it is if one of the sort of larger podcasts no offence max yeah no no second um you know goes 2.0 only yes because at the most assisted ill dispatchers on that yeah but you can still

you can still get that off rss and don't have to don't have to pay you don't have to pay you don't have to pay but they have no they have no sponsors yeah but you know it is maybe a question for for matt really is is he running that at a loss or is he making a buck or two to allow him to sort of

invest back into the podcast or i think himself i think i remember him saying about 20 or 30 episodes in that in total they'd made what they make out of one r hr one sponsorship no like is in one episode of r hr what they earn for doing that episode okay is the same as all the 30 or so that

he'd done of 2.0 of 2.0 yeah so there is a big difference so it's definitely different yeah but it's like but then someone like adam curry they do pretty well you know yeah but then they have they have people who are sending like pretty significant amounts through and he's done it and

like they've set it up in a way where there's a lot of interaction with the listeners and i think they call it like producers or something like that i've listened to a couple of them they're like people are involved in that show and it's like it's not just like you're just having a conversation

you're putting out and then someone's listening or not like it's a lot more interaction so i don't know like i feel like there could be something there but it's just different to the current ad model or people just stop in greedy fucks yeah there's a limit it's like you have a

couple of sponsors you earn enough money to put a food on the table but then somebody like block five comes along and you go well this is retarded but then like well i'll give you 10 grand a month you're like but i think there's still retarded like it's a fucking stupid thing to be chilling and then

so you know that when you put that money in your pocket you know oh my listeners are gonna get raped but i think in terms of like listeners like donating per listen per minute or whatever i think it's a strange one to tackle in the bit not a strange one it's probably not the right

phrase but to sort of i'll try and make my point to tackling the bitcoin sort of space because there's a lot of bitcoiners that have got this sort of hodl mentality yep and like every sat is precious sort of thing and all we need to do is hodl to the death and we're going to be a million heirs

and you meet them you meet them everywhere i've met a couple of this bitcoin retreat and i think that you know you need to i don't know i don't know if it'll be sustainable podcasting 2.0 if it's just restricted or at the moment it's just bitcoin space pretty much taking it and running with it

i think perhaps in the future maybe who knows if if other podcasters outside of bitcoin space go to that sort of model with like a right in it or something yeah yeah it might be maybe more successful there are certainly those out there that don't want to part of a single sat

but you know you could you could argue they're sort of leeches on that's in on the system so to speak you know you've got all this great tech you know take it away from podcasting you've got all this great free and open source tech you can run a node these days without contributing or

providing a single sat back to the developer um so it's sort of all all taken no gift so i don't know i think it'll um i think it has obviously has potential when the smart people working on it i know i'm just a little bit maybe um to golf half glass half fall yeah sort of

mantra yeah i think i think that's reasonable it's so easy to use all the open source stuff and then not contribute i think that's like the default is like people don't and then when you actually think about it you're like a lot of these guys like you like you fucking in every telegram

room all the time fixing people's problems all the time i can literally i can open up my phone and i'm like it's not this weekend i can open up my phone i'm like there's a question coming in here and then it's like brother rabbit and it's like you typing away and just like fixing it and it's

like what time is it i was like fucking ten o'clock and nine you're still like doing that i don't think people appreciate like how much value they get i think the people i get are most annoyed at and i'm pretty calm guy i get most annoyed at is is is you're often obviously see me um lurking

sort of free and open-source areas and it's those that get really angry when something doesn't work and it's and it's normally they're often not it's it's normally an issue on their end or something that perhaps they're not educated about or understand fully and you know you can't expect

everyone to know now everything works in depth but when you get like a really angry user of FOS software yeah why doesn't it do this or why fix it now yeah i've lost my bitcoin and this this and it's like oh that because you've you've done x y and z and they can get really angry but i know

probably full well they're not the sorts of people that we dip into their pocket after you've you'd help them out or i'm not expecting to sort i don't do it for to sort no i know you don't get tips or anything like that yeah but it's you know i know full well that they're not going to go out and

buy what buy a node buy a pre pre-built node from one of these that's a couple of hundred quid which is a which does give back to that sort of free and open source you know projects or not so i don't know i think going back to like this sort of podcasting 2.0 stuff but i'm always a bit

skeptical of these things i think that um maybe you know who knows i'll look back to this conversation go i was wrong or why was i so on the fence about about that i um it's nice to see these things in the wild if they if they get traction fantastic there's a way to pay back to people creating content

fantastic yeah i think like the i'm definitely on your side as well with the like give me key things when it comes to like these boosts i mean it can be when it's it when it's a lot like like do streamers on twitch and stuff when they're like stuff popping up and it's like distracting

from the con conversation and i mean maybe with the humor sim curry those different if it's the whole thing set up to be that but sometimes like blending those two can be irritating at times yeah so i think like the main focus that's probably at the end i don't know what the what the split would

be but just having people paying like micro payments every minute you know and just having that as a set as a default and they don't even have to think about it and it's just running in the background and then just over the sheer amount of numbers that you have with listeners you have that they're

just like ramps up over time i really like that concept and i'm going but um could it work with open source stuff like so so for example i do this podcast anyway because i get to speak to people there's a reason i started it because it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't all one of my money it's like

i want to speak to people who are smarter than me learn stuff and like get to meet people that's what i want to do so i start that so it's not really not really a problem whatever happens i'll just keep doing it but for open source devs like a lot of these guys are fucking gifted they can go and get

big money going and working with another company but they choose not to so they can work on bitcoin and without them we're fucked i went out without them doing what they're doing we're fucked then you see like with sparrow now Craig now at least can earn some money because he's got that whirlpool

integration so he's earning a little bit money which i look at that i think that's really fucking good like that's something that's then a sustainable model he can make some money but there's a lot of ones all like ron and dojo they're selling tanto's that brings some money in i think they do like

now uh paid do yeah like a premium support so it's as well which i think it comes with with the node as well so yeah like a month of premium support okay um so yeah it's uh it's a it's a it's a strange one to tackle i don't think it'll ever be solved i think they'll always be they'll

always be projects that will unfortunately fail because of funding yeah but you know most of the big guys doing the interesting stuff are the guys that do it in their spare time yeah yeah i think if you're doing it full time i sometimes think that um that's maybe when uh incentives maybe

yes skew as well right so i don't know could you do it that like say for example you run ron and dojo and you're running on a rosu pry or a rock pro whatever would there be a work i know they like all hate lining or that a lot of people do in in those sort of communities but would there be a way

that you could do it that you when you download the software somehow i don't like i don't know how this is possible but somehow there's an agreement as you use or run this node there's a certain amount of sats that get sent to that dev fund per day per minute per whatever and so that everyone

who's running it like for example if i'm setting it up the default is is free but just send it or download it set up free and then i might forget i might be like oh like i wouldn't even think necessary about donating but if it said as an option that this is free and open source software

people put a lot of time and effort into maintaining this blah blah blah here's what it can do for you would you be prepared to set this up so that you donate x amount of sats per day as you use it we'd really appreciate it and if it was like easy and it was like yes i'd be happy or no i'm not

be happy with that but i'll do half or no i'm just going to be a stingy fuck like they're the options then i probably do it yeah the only is always on the user isn't it and if you bake it into the system where it takes sats off you yeah someone because it's free and open source would probably

fork it so it's free sure yeah i think it always comes back to the owners being on the user yeah i mean i think one of the options would be to have it free anyway that would be like an additional kind of yeah that's but no one must understand yeah so it wouldn't be no well then

you can't use it because obviously as you said then you just fork it i mean that's it the whole point of having an open source but i mean with uh processing 2.0 i mean you can listen to everything for free as well on fountain or on breeze or whatever and so it is there is it's an option

but it obviously there again defaults matter i mean i think with something like the node i mean there i mean you have to load it up you have to have it like integrated set up there when it does kind of or even just bake it even if it's not lightning from downloading this yeah

then a pop-up comes up where you send us five dollars worth or like where you send us like a small just something because it's not an obvious it doesn't pop up and i'm starting to think like yeah they're not doing it for the money but they need to survive and then you need samurai and dojo

and these kind of guys you need them to be around because if they're not we're so fucked and then so like i don't think that there's any reason they shouldn't ask for it and just have it as a default that it pops up and if it's like okay it's five dollars worth there's the QR code it pops

up are you happy and you send it i think more people would do it because you got to go to the donate page you know it's like yeah it's just like that extra step so if you just bake it in yeah well there's that's that's why like the 2.0 stuff works because it's like you set it

to a sapum in it you do it and you just listen and in the background you're just doing you're not even thinking about it and that's sort of maybe half the battle it's just like making it easy i think i think it's somewhat easy enough as it is do you yeah i think it's just about that

people partnering with their sats to pay for the things they're interested or value i think it can it can obviously be added in yeah obviously bit kinds of persistence so you'd have to have you'd you'd have to initiate that sort of donation but it comes down to people wanting

to part with their precious sats which i you know it annoys me now or lnurl withdraw could set something that up with that recurrence payments yeah that's true then send a just share a payment code and then have it on your end set that you can only withdraw

a certain amount every month and then obviously they have to actively do that i mean that would work but i think i mean to tie it back to to the podcasting i think because in a way like advertisement advertising is something that can really skew the incentives if it's only

because of the money if you if you have to do advertising yeah because you need the funding to get to keep the thing running yeah and i think what the role that this to a podcast in 2.0 can fill is to kind of give a certain baseline but you know i i can keep this running and i'm not

going to get rich this is not going to go like absolutely explode but i can keep it keep it sustainable yeah with podcasting 2.0 and just generally advertising can be a good thing as well if you if you have something that you really believe in and you want to get the message out and

you want to recommend a product because you use it yourself you believe in the people yeah um and you really want yeah there's no problem with that exactly and then also for the company to pay for that is also fine but i think the problem comes in when you have to do that when you're relying

on having sponsors there all the big monies with the most whatever companies pay the most money that money comes from somewhere and it's normally from fleecing their customers that's why compass pay a lot that's why block 5 pay a lot and that's why like the hardware providers can't pay a lot

because their margins are smaller actually producing an actual product that's actually valuable and actually good and that costs a lot of money to do so they don't have a lot of money to throw around so it's it's always that way it's like if you want foundation or cold card or you guys like

making hardware you want someone like that it's like how big your margins are big it's it's a tough one to crack that's my rant we've got anything else to cover or we want to get into the sunshine maybe go for a dip i think yeah there's a water of sea situations on your non-sponsor hell yeah

thank you very much i realized it's amazing it could be me but it's not it's not it's not but no congratulations yeah thank you very much it's pretty fucking cool to see that oh yeah so thank you whoever you are a non-sponsor that is very very kind anything else too no thank you

so much on it let's do that i'll put my virginity on that which isn't always okay thanks for listening i really hope you enjoyed that as much as i enjoyed recording it if you have any feedback i'd really appreciate it good or bad you can find us at ungovernable misfits.com

i'd also like to say thank you to everyone who has been reaching out to me everyone who's been streaming sats and giving reviews it really does help so thank you so much catch you on the next one