Bitcoin monthly 0021

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it! Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Alright, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space, and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back to Bitcoin Monthly. We've been away for a couple of months, and I've really missed it. I enjoyed sitting down with Bitcoin Q&A and Antimus, and we had a lot to cover. We went through the software updates, as well as discussing the recent LND exploits and how it was handled.

We also covered full RBF in the pre-release of Core, and also the FTX blow-up for anyone who hasn't heard of that fucking shit show. As I say, I really enjoyed this. I won't go through everything we covered, because you're gonna listen to it anyway.

But thank you for listening, and thank you for bearing with us. If you have any questions on anything we've covered, you can reach out to me, Q&A, or Antimus, and we'll be happy to help. Before we start, I just wanna say a big thank you to Urban Hacker.

He was on the last pod, and if you haven't listened to that, go and check it out. It's really interesting what he's doing. Very interesting way to orange pill new users. After our discussion, he very kindly donated to the show.

It really does help. Every time I get a donation like this, it helps me reinvest, spend more time, and improve the quality. So a massive thank you to Urban Hacker. It really means a lot, and to anyone listening, I do suggest you check out his project.

All the information, contact details, and everything else you will need is on the last podcast, that's Urban Hacker. I'd also like to say a big thank you to Foundation Devices for sponsoring the show, and creating such fucking awesome hardware.

If you haven't already checked them out, go to foundationdevices.com. If you have any questions at all, you can reach out and ask me, get $10 off if you use the code bit by bit. You can also check out the interviews I've done with Zach and Q&A.

We talk about the incredible design and why they've decided to stay fast. Check them out at foundationdevices.com. And finally, a big thank you to FastBitcoins. I think the last few months should have shaken everyone up a little bit and made them realize they do not want to be holding their sats on an exchange.

FastBitcoins is adamant they do not want to hold your sats, they do everything they can to push you away from doing that, and they have done that for a very long time. They also support this show, despite me constantly bashing KYC services and constantly reminding everyone of the dangers.

If you do decide to hand over your details, you need to make sure that the company are doing the absolute best job possible. FastBitcoins has an incredible team and they do everything that they can to keep you safe.

Check them out at fastbitcoins.com. Enjoy the show. - Well, this is nice. - We're back. - Been, what? - Two months. - Well, two months, three months. - We're still alive. - Which should be fair, might be new to some people because the last podcast I heard you and Marky sounded like you were about to keel over.

- I was. - Ooh, that would have been quite a plot twist, eh? Oof. - Yeah, well, I'm having a LEMSEP today as well. What I'm doing is just sea soaring in between this like really sick and then stumbling around aimlessly sort of mode.

I'm always in between the two of those. I think when we last met Q and A, I was like on the good end of that and now I'm going back towards the bad end of that, so. I thought you were going to say I'm sea soaring between LEMSEP and Whiskey at the moment.

- That too, or I do both at the same time normally. I feel like hot toddy and then chuck a LEMSEP in as well. - Just for good measure. - Nice. - What's new with you two? - Antimas, I haven't spoken to you in fucking ages.

I thought you died as well. (laughing) - Yeah, just jumping about. I mean, like in September, beginning of October, I was out in a few conferences and stuff, that was great. Me and loads of people, man, that was beautiful.

And now like over the last few weeks, just plodding along and men got a lot to talk about today. So it's going to be exciting. How about you guys? - Did you go to Amsterdam, Antimas? - Yeah, yeah, I did.

- I wasn't. - It was, I mean, it was kind of a bit mixed because there were, I mean, obviously it's a bigger kind of thing. You know, there's a lot of advertising kind of stuff. Like there was all a bit more segregated, not like in Riga that there was like all on one spot.

Like it was all a bit spread out. But obviously it was just like the main events, like in the evening just going out into different bars. There was this little place where they have the local Bitcoin meetups as well, this bar.

And that was packed every evening. So it was great just hanging out there and having some beers. But I mean, I didn't really see too much of the conference itself. It's always kind of the same thing as all about the people there, you know, so, but it was cool.

- Yeah. - Good stuff, good stuff. Were you on a stand again with C-Tina? - No, no, I wasn't. I was too late for that. And it's a bit of a different price point there.

So it was a bit about my range. But yeah, and I was only there for two days as well, but got around quite a bit and chatted with the people with the different stands there. So it was definitely cool to see and catch up with a few people who were also in Riga.

That's nice. - Good to know. Well, we've got a hell of a list that you've put together. Thanks for carrying us all on that one. - Yeah, that's my pleasure, mate. - So I'm going to steal your glory.

I'll let you kick us off and no doubt we can chime in. - Yeah, I mean, here we've got like a few just like software updates that we can run through pretty quickly. I mean, there are a few things that we can definitely touch on a bit more.

You can just jump in a few, if you've got something to add, but just so that everyone's on the same page or run through the list. We can start Australia with Blue Wallet V6.3.2. They've just got like, apparently they've had some issues with people being like scammed with like watch on only wallets

that they weren't aware that they were just like watch only wallets then like creating receive addresses that weren't actually theirs and passing them out and then scams getting their funds.

So they've added like additional warnings when you create a watch only wallet. So everyone should know about that. The interesting one on this list, this release list for Blue Wallet, to me is the export transaction history and labels, which has historically been a something that if your wallet software dies or disappears then

so do all of your labels because there's been no agreed standard. I know Craig at Sparrow has proposed something in terms of like a CSV export. I don't think it's got as far as becoming a bipper and anything like that, but it's sort of in the early stages of becoming hopefully some form of standard that other wallets can adopt such that

if you want to migrate from Sparrow to Spectre to Envoy to Samurai or whatever, then there's a universal language there that we can import on rather than just them throwing your seed words in and then having a list of hundreds of transactions and you've got no fucking clue where they've come from.

You can also be able to import all of your labels or tags however the wallet imposes them to you. Do you know what format Blue is using for this and whether they've sort of taken any heed from what Craig has proposed?

- No, I didn't see any mention of that so I don't know exactly how they formatted it but I would be surprised if it were the same formatting 'cause then they probably would have advertised it in some way. - Mentioned it, yeah, yeah, of course.

- So regardless, it's a good thing. Even if they've gone out on their own, then at least more advanced users have got that option that if they need to migrate from Wombly wallet to another for a new phone or something like that, then it just streamlines the process and sort of they don't undo all of their labeling hard work

that they might have, that wallet might be years old and has loads and loads of transaction labels and it's the thought of losing all of those for my wallet is a scary thought. - I'm going through it currently.

- Oh, you are? - Yeah, yeah, 'cause I moved from Spectre and I had my laptop crash. I have an old backup of my Spectre with all my labels but I haven't been able to restore it and I'm moving across to Sparrow when I move office.

I have in the back of my head and it's horrible to think but I think I may have lost all my labels which would be fucking disgusting because I've spent a long time managing it and putting things through Whirlpool and segregating things and labeling things and yeah, it's like, I kind of maybe took it for granted a little bit

that oh, this backup will just work and maybe it hasn't. - Oh boy. - Yeah, well two further points on that. Number one, if most of your stuff is in post-mix max then the labels become less important because those UTXOs have had like a clean start if you're like, obviously if you've done subsequent spends

from post-mix to various merchants and they'll label that then yeah, there's gonna be some headaches there. - That's a problem also. Some where it's like, oh, that's only had one mix and somewhere I know it's had like five plus remixes.

It's a little bit complex how I did it and without the labels, it's a bit of fucks but I'm hoping that I work it out but it just goes to show like how important it is 'cause you can do all that groundwork.

You take all the time to go through something like Samurai and make sure that you separate things out and then just because one backup hasn't worked all of that is undone and you're back to square one again.

So it's so important to have it. - Absolutely. And it like also just like locks in users to a certain like software or a certain project. I mean, it's a bit similar to like the whole like transferring your lightning channels from one node box to another node box, you know if you wanna jump from one to another,

you have pretty fucked there as well and some will work on it, exactly. So the end of the day, everything that's like linked to the user and like their data and everything they've set up should be really easily migratable from one project to another.

And I really hope we can agree on standards at least now for the labels I'm not holding my breath for the lightning channels but yeah, we'll see. - Yeah. And I just while we've been talking, I've just exported the labels from my blue wallet that I used to do some testing with passport and yeah, it's in CSV format.

So I'm gonna test if I can import that to Spyro later on. Obviously I won't do it while we're on the call but promising that both using CSV so there's a chance that the two might be interoperable.

- And even if not, then it's probably would be a really small change of just like reordering the different columns and stuff and that would be great. - So it's definitely a good start. So well done blue wallet team.

- Okay. Yeah, and there's the last point there was the export. Expubs is a file. Obviously like if you've got it on a desktop that's pretty trivial of just like putting like copying your expub and dumping it in a file on a phone, it's always a bit of a pain.

So that's nice as well to have that feature now too. We've got join market V0.1.4. They've added two factor authentication for SSH logging in with the UbiKey. That's always nice 'cause like most services that I was just like running through all my different stuff and putting into factor authentication like where I didn't have it

but like SSH has always problem there. So that's definitely one of the nice ones.

- Yeah, and also Jam. I mean, that's one we haven't spoken about here for a while. I mean, we'd spoken about it before it came out but that's like the nice graphical user interface for join market.

And they've now also set up the integration that you can have it installed on your local Linux desktop and connect remotely to your join inbox instance. That's pretty cool. - Can you just talk me through what's the difference with that and join inbox then?

Join inbox, I thought was kind of like a slightly more simple user interface that you could have on, what was it? I added that on the Raspberry Blitz, I think. - As far as I know, I mean, Jam is now a full like graphical user interface.

So you've got like the whole GUI where you can everything's neatly built up and you can just click through like as you'd know it from pretty much everything else. And join inbox is still like a terminal based but it's just more, I don't know, it's like those.

It's a bit more like simpler and built up in more in a more transparent way. I don't know, but it's still not-- - Yeah, you still need to use the command line to interface with it, don't you?

- Yeah, exactly, yeah. - Okay, cool. Samurai Dojo V 1.18.0, which is now, Fulcrum's been an option for a while, but now you can expose it to your local network, which is obviously a lot faster.

I mean, Fulcrum's ready quite a bit faster. So it's probably similar than having an electron on your local, but-- - Yeah, so this comes off the back of this current state of the Tor network for the last at least six months.

I'm gonna say the Tor network's been undergoing various different denial of service attacks, which has been impacting general uses of Tor in terms of the browser, but also all services that are built on top of Tor, which is essentially all of the mobile Bitcoin wallets that are even somewhat privacy preserving.

Overline on Tor and all of the impacts have been felt there. So if you're using a Samurai wallet and you're talking back to your Dojo over Tor, there's a chance, there's a very high chance that you've had some form of degraded service in the last six months, at least, and it doesn't really show any signs of being rectified yet,

which is a fairly bit worrying, but we'll just have to see that how it goes. So this Dojo release, as Antifa said, you can now expose it to the local network, which means that you can connect over your home to Wi-Fi rather than going through the Tor network, which obviously won't work when you're not at your house.

So this is not a complete miracle pill, but most people will, I'm gonna go out on a limit and say that most people will be making their Bitcoin transactions from their house anyway. So this is gonna fix 80, 90% of those connectivity issues because 90% of people's Bitcoin usage is generally at home anyway.

So you can still have that Tor fall back, I presume, for when you leave your home network, but let's say it fixes the immediate issues such that you're not just completely, you know, if Tor's having a really bad day, that you're not just completely unable to communicate with your Dojo node.

- One thing I was thinking here, 'cause in the wallet and the app, you have to like enable disable Tor. So if you're in your local network, you'd have to disable Tor to be able to connect, but then when you go out of your network, you don't want to like then go in through clear net, you know?

So is there like an option to say like only local or then otherwise default to Tor or like how would that work? - I'm honestly not sure, but now that you just reiterated the onboarding flow for somewhere and you have to specify it there and you can't kind of change it there after.

I would imagine now I think about that this is kind of a one or the other, so you'd have to sort of set the wallet up and say, you know, Tor to my node locally or Tor to my node over Tor, there's currently no functionality in the wallet that enables you to switch quickly to Twitter too.

Yeah, I completely sort of forgot about that sort of flow. So again, I haven't actually tried this because everyone are running Dojo, which obviously is slightly independent of Dojo itself.

So I'm just working on theory here, but yeah, knowing that somewhere UI, then there's no quick way to change that yet that I know of. So something to bear in mind. - Yeah, yeah, 'cause I've also used the like a well pool GUI and there you can, on each login, you can choose how to connect if you wanna do it locally

or then via Tor when you're out and about, but in the app, I thought you could as well, but that's definitely good to know that you can't. - But don't forget what you could do, I suppose again, this is getting a bit more hack-a-man, but if it's exposed locally, you could also have something like tail scale

on the computer that's running Dojo and then also have a tail scale client on your phone such that you can access your local network externally. Obviously that's not gonna be a simple thing to tell.

- Is it anything to do with Tails, like the little operating system on a USB or is it? - No, no, so you have, it's like a server client, it's like your own sort of personal VPN that allows you to connect back to your home network.

So it's not a VPN similar to Mulvad where you're kind of hiding in a crowd, it would be just for your personal use only, but you would encrypt your traffic over like your personal VPN so that you can contact back to your house without having to expose loads of different ports on your network

and weakening the strength or security of your network. So it comes as standard on umbrella believe, Raspberry Blitz and maybe Citadel. So this option is getting more and more common to use and it is a great alternative to Tor but it's, Tor is just plug and play, give it an onion address and it works when it's not being D.O.S.ed.

- When it does, yeah. - Yeah, but Tails scale is an alternative to that where it takes a little bit more setting up but it gives you typical internet speeds rather than having to wait forever in a day and hope that Tor works.

But it's very much a personal thing, it's not like an onion network or anything like that so it's like hiding a crowd. - Okay, next on the list, we've got seed sign of the 0.5.1 exp. So that's like an experimental release now for anyone who wants to tinker and maybe even pitch in.

This is great for you but don't use this with any live funds yet but there's a, there are quite a few really cool upgrades. One of the main thing is that it's now called the seed sign OS so it's an, it's an own operating system based on like customized Linux build route and this like decreases the size of the release in a major way.

So it's like down from 3.8 gigs to like what's it? 35 megabytes. That's massive, that's massive, yeah. - Does that mean, 'cause I think I remember someone saying like there was a bigger attack surface on these things because they're running like on Raspi Blitz, Raspi Blitz, Raspi, what's it called?

Their software or their operating system? - Exactly. - Okay, so whatever operating system, I can't remember what it's called now but what you're saying is they've stripped that out completely and then they've built their own so it doesn't have all the other shit they didn't need.

- Exactly, they can harden that directly. And the cool thing is that that because of the size, it can now also run locally on in memory. So you have to put in the card, you can power it up and then you can remove the card again and it's just running memory 'cause that was also one of the points

that people were always like a bit paranoid about that when you import a seed into the seed signer, it doesn't have, or the only proper storage it has is the SD card. So people think, oh, maybe it would store some kind of information about the seed or about what you're doing on the card and so now you can boot it up,

remove the card and then you've only got the memory of the board of the Raspi Pi and then you can do all your stuff and then once you power it off, the memory then just gets erased and then next time you boot, you start up with the card again.

So that's the main advantage of that system. The other thing is that you could now also implement transferring the PSBT via SD card and not just via the QR codes. So that'll be an additional feature that could come along.

- Which is particularly useful for people who have got say larger multi-sick quorums with many, many UTXOs. It becomes a certain point where signing with QR codes becomes more and more difficult just because, if you've got lots of UTXOs and you need three or four signatures, that transaction in terms of bytes

starts to get pretty large and condensing that down into multiple animating QR codes on a really small screen just means that it takes a fair bit longer and that kind of grows exponentially where you don't have that issue with an SD card.

So there comes a point with certain size transactions where this optionality to have that SD card is gonna be a good thing, especially for a device like seat signer. - That too, and also what you could do is then just travel with the SD card.

So if you have like a distributed multi-sick, you could also go backwards and forwards and just take an SD card with you to transport the PSBT backwards and forwards. Like at the moment, you'd still have to take a laptop or your phone or something, like sign one part of the transaction and then upload it back into the

coordinator as Sparrow Spectre or Blue Wallet or Nunchuck or something like that. And then travel backwards forwards and here, you can now do it just with the SD card and then import it when you're back home or something like that.

- Okay, yeah, but just to reiterate, this is still experimental. So if someone plays around with it, best to use test net with that at the moment. - We've then got Sparrow V1.7.1 and that was released, I think about a week ago or something.

One of the cool features is now icons in the wallet tab, which makes it a lot more easy to navigate around. But as I heard Q&A, you had something to do with requests there without update.

- Yeah, I did indeed. So obviously I work for foundation. We create Passport, which is an Agut hardware wallet that interact primarily through QR codes, same seed sign that does. And one of the infrequent issues that we have crop up from time to time is that sometimes depending on the device that people are using Sparrow on,

that their Passport is sometimes taken quite a while to scan the animated QR codes for the PSBT when they're doing the signing flow. So it's very much dependent on the type of screen, sometimes if you've got privacy, there was privacy shield on the screen and things like that, it can just degrade the ability of the camera,

that the camera has to pick up those animated QR codes, which on Sparrow iterate very quickly from one to the next. So I spoke to Gray, message him one evening, I said, is there any way that you can add the ability to adjust the density of the QR code?

It's much like you can on Passport itself and I presume on seed sign it correct me from Ron Gantamis, just so that your wallet software finds it easier to read the QR codes off the device.

I asked Gray for the mirror image of that for Sparrow so that you can just click a button and it just condenses the QR codes down a little bit just to make them easier to pick up for devices that have cameras on board.

And he included in the release 16 hours later. So yeah. - It's a bit slippery to be honest. - Yeah, I did message him. I said, you took the time of that one. But yeah, obviously there's an element of good timing in the fact that he had the release, planned to be coming out fairly soon.

But yeah, just the fact that he just picked up the issue, took it on board and implemented it there and then is again, another one of the reasons why I love free and open source software.

- Yeah, that's beautiful. And that dude's a boss man. I mean, probably at some point we'll find out whether it's like a whole team of people just sitting there or like buying one name, I don't know.

- Yeah, and Craig's really a fred or something like that. I'd outbreak my heart. (both laughing) I also, this is not a lot. I also managed to, a couple of days ago get myself on the list of, they contribute to List for Sparrow, made a pull request, which is gonna be in the next release obviously.

Really, really trivial also. Please don't take it as anything. It's just like changing some text to the passport, flows, but it looks good because now I look like a super shadowy coder and then I got my little face on it and it helped me possibly exactly.

(both laughing) - It's like that means where your kids are saying, like, what were you doing in the bear market of 2022? Like, yeah, I was doing part of this. - Yeah, I'm gonna put it on a CV.

- Yeah. (both laughing) - Tres of the 22.10.3, this was actually announced in Riga, one of their talks. They now offer P2P, KYC free Bitcoin trading via HODL HODL, so you can do that directly from your cold storage on your Tresa.

I haven't used it myself, I don't have a Tresa, so I can't say exactly other work flow is and how good it actually works now, how convenient it is, but generally that's a really nice thing, 'cause I mean, obviously a lot of people use Tresa and getting access there, while not having your fans hot, that's pretty nice.

- Just trying to think through, like, is it that much more useful though, because can't you just get the address from your hardware wallet and then just post it in to the software that you'd be using anyway?

- Yeah, so this just simplifies that, so rather than you having to manually copy and paste. - Yeah, exactly, just simplifies it, which is only ever a good thing. I, again, also don't have a Tresa, so I haven't tested this out in person, but for what I can see from the documentation is that it still kind of eventually throws you back out

to the HODL HODL like web interface anyway, so it's not 100% from within Tresa Suite, which I know this is only the first release and I don't want to come off as negative because this is fantastic that people have got this optionality to do it straight to cold storage, which is fantastic, but from what I can see,

you come to a certain point and then it kind of kicks you out of Tresa Suite and then you flick to the website to complete the trade, so maybe they'll improve that in the future, but yeah, again, don't want to be negative.

This is fantastic, big fan of paid stuff, so the fact that you can do it straight into your Tresa is fantastic. - Yeah, if you're like the buyer, then obviously you only have to post your address, I mean, if you're the seller, then you like, I use a bisque or something like that.

I mean, there you'd have to then also like first transfer your funds there and then like see like how much you want to sell, like how often do you want to sell, like how much liquidity do you want to have there and stuff and all that's then hot, like while you're trading.

So here, as I understand it, it would all be in your wallet on Tresa, like cold storage and then only when you actually want to do a trade that you then, I mean, they also have like the Enesco system there.

So obviously if you're selling, your funds are then hot and Enesco until the trade is complete, but still it's one step removed as I understand it. - Yeah, yeah. Well, it'd be interesting to see whether this sort of thing can be done with like bisque or peach and huddle-huddle and all of that, like how far you can go with it

because I think that would get people using these P2P exchanges more, they'd feel more comfortable doing that. And especially if it has like an easy workflow from the device. And if you don't have to jump onto one of those sites or jump back out from that flow, that'd be amazing.

- Yeah, I wouldn't, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible with bisque, for instance, I mean, I think here, it's just like a business partnership between Tresa and huddle-huddle, that's why they went that way.

Obviously with bisque being like a dow is with a different thing, but technically I think it should be similar. - Next on the list is Umbral V0.5.2. And they've got this, I mean, I think they were the ones that started this whole like app store system with like node boxes, getting more and more apps

and then they just switched to an app store so that you can just install and de-install the stuff that you want or don't want and they've now released the option to do like community app stores.

So you can create your own app store, curate it the way you want and then also publish that so that other people can pick and choose and just see, okay, this is the kind of the setup I wanna have or I wanna follow this one or that one.

And just like it will adjust to that, so that's pretty cool. - Does this work in a similar way to the f-droid is what currently working? So you have like the main, the official f-droid app store, which will be the Umbral store or the app store.

And then you can add like custom URLs to be able to access Antomoses App Store and another one for Macs is App Store and you have to do it manually that way. Is that how I understand that correctly?

- Yeah, I mean, I don't know exactly how it's like set up in the UI of like how to integrate that, but yeah, the idea is that if I'm not happy with that there's some app that's not on Umbral, instead of having to put in a pull request and hoping that they'll integrate it, I can just set up like my own app store

in like configured in a certain way obviously so that people can import that, but then I can integrate certain apps into that app store that aren't supported by the official Umbral app store.

And that way you can, yeah, they probably will hopefully be a lot more people adding different apps and working on different solutions there. - Sounds good, love to see the whole that unfolds.

- I mean, obviously there, I mean, for everyone who's using the non-official app store, like be careful with what people put in there and so on, 'cause obviously Umbral, they do have a system there in place to kind of vet the apps that they put in, that's not 100% water-tight either as it is with open source projects,

but be more careful if you're putting in like a custom app store, they could be malicious stuff in there as well. So that's your own risk. Then the last updates we've got on the list are the LND updates, the two that came in last month.

I mean, that's probably something that, unless you've been living under a rock, that's been pretty big before the other big news we had. So there was a beginning of, yeah, we'll go on to that, I guess.

At the beginning of October, there was the first hack in quotes or vulnerability that was taken advantage of in actually Bitcoin D and LND relies on Bitcoin D and they had to bring out like an emergency-hox fix

for that, which was the LNDV 0.15.2 beta. And then two weeks later, a very similar vulnerability was taken advantage of and they had to do the whole thing again. And in both instances, LND crashed and fell out of sync with the network.

So this was pretty scary for a lot of people. They did come out in both instances with hot fixes pretty quickly that also worked. But, and I haven't actually heard, I don't know if any of you have, but I haven't heard of any instances where people lost funds because of this, not that I've heard of.

Isn't there like a two-week window or something like that? - Yeah, to consider the default sort of time to be able to catch cheaters on the network is two weeks. So the hot fix was in before that.

So as long as most people updated their nodes when instructed to do so, then you should have been fine. But yeah, I think the summary here is that one, some super clever young dev was messing around with stupidly complex taproot transactions on mainnet, absolutely nothing to do with Lightning.

And because of the way that the, like I say, one of the libraries that Antimus referenced BTCD, it didn't like one of those transactions and BTCD is also used in the underpinnings of LND, which is what most 99% of Lightning Overrunners all operate on, completely broke that, which meant that all of those nodes fell out of sync

with the rest of the normal Bitcoin nodes on the network and completely just balked LND and it just ground to a halt in terms of like, being up to date with the main chain. Transact, I believe transactions could still go through on Lightning itself because it's, obviously it does, it is kind of its separate network.

But if there was a possibility that people could be cheated, if somebody was running a node that wasn't affected, they could try and cheat some funds out of somebody running an LND node that was affected, whose node would not be in sync with the rest of the network.

- Yeah, it was actually fascinating. He, the guy who did it called Paul Rach, B-U-R-A-K. He was on Citadel Dispatch with Matt and a few other guys talking this through, catching some hate.

Yeah, I mean, he's pretty full of it, the guy, but yeah. But he was saying, and that was quite interesting, that actually it was, he was at the beginning trying to do like advertisement kind of for taproot that you can now do like these huge multi-sync transactions.

And he actually did a 998 of 999 transaction and that was not supported because with like normal, like the Segway addresses, you've got maximum of 20 in a quorum. And the problem with B-T-C-D is that they've got like a double check system.

So it, well, actually it's in LND, they check it once, they verify, and then they push it on to B-T-C-D as I understood it. And that, and B-T-C, I know, no, that can't be, it must be in B-T-C-D itself, there's check twice.

And in the actual like consensus code, it was updated with taproot, but in the like pre-verification, it wasn't. So it actually never got to the actual like consensus check in B-T-C-D so that then obviously through them completely out of consensus.

So the TLDR is if all of that went over your head, it just makes sure that your LND node is up to date. (laughing) - Exactly, yeah. The other thing I thought was interesting from that conversation, they were talking about disclosures and how it should work and everything, and whether you do something like this guy's done

or whether you go and speak to the devs and stuff, but what I kind of took away from it being a non-technical guy who doesn't do any of this development, for me, I was kind of thinking, well, if it's fucked, or if it's fuckable, and people have all this stuff being built on it, and people are kind of looking to lightning as,

this is how we scale Bitcoin, and you have like one country running on it, and you have lots of businesses running on it and everything else, like, it did make me think like, well, how fragile is it?

And maybe it is right that people just consistently attack it because attacking it makes it stronger, and it's better it's attack now than in five years time, better to do it now, and if it is breakable, then break it and move on.

- Yeah, I think that's fair in terms of the disclosures. I believe that the second one, something was disclosed like a couple of weeks before Barak exploited the issue. Somebody else separately had actually reported the issue to the Lightning Labs team.

I believe, again, this is just on Twitter, so take it with a pinch of salt, and maybe they were dragging the heels with the fix, or whatever, but yeah, Barak went ahead and-- - Barak to. - He did, Barak it, yeah, yeah.

But lightning's stronger as a result of his actions. Like you say, no, I'm not aware of anybody that's lost any money, but I should be a stark reminder that this year is still very much experimental.

Don't load up your Lightning channels with all of your funds, and on-chain is still where it's out if you want finality and safety, tread carefully elsewhere. - Yeah, I heard similar stuff about that it was disclosed from someone else as well.

What I gathered was that they-- I mean, that's always a bit of the issue when you have like responsible disclosures when someone just comes and tells the project privately, like, okay, there's an issue here.

You kind of want to wait for a bigger update so that you can just like smuggle it in there and like no one really realizes. And then after a few weeks when a large portion of users is updated, you then say, oh, like there was actually a bug fix in there just so that, you know, but everyone's updated by that time.

If you just do like a hot fix where that's the only change, then you're giving everyone who wants to exploit that, like a head start on what is this kind of a race of like, can everyone update fast enough before people can exploit it?

So I think that was what they were hoping for because they've just gone through that whole thing they wanted to maybe put a bit of time in between the two and hope to bury it in one of their future releases.

But obviously, Barack was faster with that. So they're a bit pissed about that. But yeah, as you're saying, Max, I mean, that's kind of, that's what makes this all stronger. So in a way, it was a kind of a fire drill, a live fire drill.

And like also the whole communication was like practice in a way now as well of like how to get the message or how to distribute stuff. And so I think that's not bad either. - Do you agree with that then that it's, 'cause it seemed to me like that conversation, most of the people who were involved felt that what he did was wrong,

or at least the way he went about it was wrong. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I sort of thought, well, I kind of agree with the guy. Like, I thought it was quite good. And I'd almost take it to the next extreme, which would be like, maybe it would be interesting if there was like some kind of bounty.

So that rather than breaking something and stealing funds like a hacker might try to do, maybe you could have like a kind of white hat element where someone like him would be able to say, right, I found the bug, let me claim this prize that someone's put up.

That would have fucked your system, but I'm not going to, I'm just gonna take this amount of SATs and now you know and fix it quickly. Do you know what I mean? Like a bit of a game where hackers can just constantly try and break it.

And if they're confident enough, these teams to put the software up and say that, well, this isn't play time anymore and people can use it, will then have like a bit of a bounty to keep them on their toes.

- Yeah, a lot of software companies do actually do that. And even hardware companies as well in the space do it as well. It's viable alternative again. So yeah, I tend to agree with your comments really.

But like I say, you know, it wasn't as bad as it could have been. So the network survived and L&D is now stronger, but although this has been a great advertisement for C Lightning, which was completely unaffected throughout all of this.

- Yeah, you actually referenced them in one of them. - Exactly. - Cool, so you're not C Lightning. - Exactly, you'll use Core Lightning and you'll be happy. Yeah, I mean, to your point, Max, I mean, they were pretty like hostile or negative against him.

Although some of them were also like supporting his arguments. I think the main issue was the way he was, he was like handling himself. And like, I think if he'd been a bit more considerate in the way he was actually speaking, it would have been a different conversation.

If like, those would have been his points, like, okay, like we wanna, like, we have to go through this process and like, we'll be better off because of it. And like, like kind of put up more of an argument than just like, I just wanted to fuck with you all.

I think it would have been a bit better. But at the same time, like now in hindsight, it looks like a good move because no one was harmed and we are better off now. But on the other hand, he did run the risk of fucking over loads of people and loads of people losing this shit.

He couldn't have known that beforehand that that wasn't gonna happen. So he was gambling with one of these people's funds. - Well, then maybe what he said, I just wanted to create some chaos, I like chaos.

Maybe he is just being honest. Maybe like, if he couldn't have known and it could have really been chaos, then maybe that is true. And if it is true and he's being honest about it, then you've got to kind of respect that because there is real chaos in the world.

And so at least if he's creating chaos, that's better than the other chaos that could come. - I think just to cap this one off, it's also worth remembering that I'm pretty sure this guy's fairly young as well.

I'm pretty sure you might not even be 20 yet. So I'm sure you guys can both remember back to your late teens and the attitude that you had towards the world back then. So again, not excusing his attitude, but it kind of makes it a little bit more understandable as to the way the approach that he took

when he was on dispatch with Matt and the guys and makes it a bit more. When you understand that he's a young guy and he wants to take on the world then, you're like, okay, I can see that myself 10, 15 years ago.

- Yeah, 100%. - Yeah, so that was that, I mean, one, there was a bit of a segue to the full RBF topic. There've been some theories that that whole thing was, that people put a lot of pressure on building up the drama to push the topic away from the L&D bug towards something else.

I don't know if that's true or not, but I thought that was pretty funny. Anyway, I mean, there's the whole situation with the Bitcoin 24.0, which will be the new release for Bitcoin Core.

That's the, at the moment, it's still a release candidate. And this process is usually pretty straightforward. So like once there's a release candidate out, that usually goes through pretty quickly because there's been so much discussion and so much work on it beforehand.

It's usually just like take a look and have a look for bugs, but there's actual real discussion about the things implemented, like on a fundamental basis, that's usually not the case. So here, what we're talking about is full RBF.

So at the moment, RBF stands for replaced by fee. Some people may use that or know about it at the moment, we have a system which is opt-in replaced by fee, which means that if you choose this option to opt-in, then every transaction you do is flagged with the option to replace it with a higher fee.

So if you're like low-balling a transaction with the low fee and the mempool fills up, you can then later replace the transaction with a higher fee, so to just bump it to get it through more quickly.

At the moment, the each transaction that has that option is flagged, so it's clear in the mempool which ones can and which ones can't be replaced. Now, obviously, this is not a consensus rule, so minus could also just choose to replace the transaction even if it hasn't flagged, but it is like, I'm not quite sure what the exact term is,

but it's a policy in Bitcoin core, so your node won't relay transactions that try to replace a non-flagged transaction previously. So why is this all controversial? I think the main thing is that it came up from different businesses that, as their business model, rely on zero fee transactions,

so that would be companies like Moon, Wallet, M-U-U-N, or Bit Refill selling vouchers. Here you could, with Bit Refill, you could pay for vouchers and with zero confirmations, you'd already get your product delivered.

So obviously, this only works if you're not using replaced by the fee, and as all replaced by fee transactions would be marked as such, they can easily decide if they're gonna hand out their products directly or not.

Now, if every transaction were to be able to be replaced, then they would have to shut that down and only provide their products to customers once their confirmations have gone through. So that's kind of the baseline.

Yeah. - Yeah, I think you did a great job of covering that, actually. The interesting thing with Moon, just because a lot of people don't know how Moon, the wallet sort of operates and why this is quite an important topic for them, is that Moon is an on-chain wallet that is able to speak lightning.

So you can pay lightning invoices from Moon, or receive lightning invoices, and they'll kind of do all the magic in the background, just to make that user interface really, really slick for you so that you don't have to fuck around with channels, et cetera, et cetera.

One of the ways that they do that is by accepting zero-conf transaction. So if you were to pay a lightning invoice, they would take some on-chain Bitcoin out of your wallet and then pay the lightning invoice that you chose to pay immediately, which is irreversible as soon as it goes through it done.

Now, if your transaction that they take from your, you know, the on-chain transaction that they take from you is RBF by default, which this proposes for that flag to be the norm, then that kind of completely destroys their business model because they're vulnerable to attacks then for people who know what they're doing

to have the lightning invoice paid by Moon on their behalf, and then replace that on-chain transaction using a modified client to steal those on-chain funds back. So this is quite a big topic for them.

And it kind of works the same way for bit refill, as you said, Antimasware. It's slightly less important because, you know, it's, yes, it's nice to have your vouchers immediately, but you can kind of plan ahead a little bit and wait for one confirmation.

So the use case I see being impacted here is, let's say you go to Tesco and you want to buy, you want to pay for your groceries with Bitcoin, you head on to bit refill and you're in the queue and you need to ASAP, you know, having it, having it accepted as a zero-conf is useful in that scenario,

but yeah, you can kind of plan ahead to mitigate that. But there's been a lot of chatter on this one from varying different camps. Some say it's good, some say it's bad. And I think the crux of the change within Bitcoin core is that, like you said, the node itself is going to relay full RBF transactions just by default.

But the wallet, the core wallet as well is also going to set RBF option to on. So opt-in is the default, which means that RBF is the default with the ability to turn that off. So it essentially makes full RBF kind of the de facto standard or be it that people have the ability to turn that off if they want to, but like say,

most people are not going to do that. So it just means that-- - So you can turn it off though. - Absolutely, yeah, yeah. But the crux here is that it kind of turns the opt-in RBF option to opt-out instead.

Is it just about the core wallet, of course? But the important bit for everybody else that runs a node that runs on Zoper Bitcoin core, which is pretty much all of them, is that their node will relay any transactions to be replaced, even if they're not explicitly marked as full.

Sorry, marked with the RBF flag. So yeah, detrimental to some users, sorry to some business models like Moon and BitRefill. But again, I think this comes down to incentives and kind of regardless of everything that we've just spoken about, if you want a transaction replaced, you can do that anyway.

You can just bypass everybody else's mempool and just talk to a miner and say, I'll give you this much money. Get rid of that transaction and put this one in. So this is kind of just delaying the inevitable, I would say.

And allowing users to have that choice within their core nodes. One thing, because I'm not 100% sure, maybe I misunderstood myself. But the way I understood this was that the option in core is to like, how are you going to set your own mempool policy?

So this would be, does my own mempool allow replacements, even if there is no flag? And that option is now an option, a setting, in your configuration. And there's now a toggle, but it is still set to off by default.

And you have to actively do it. And I actively click it on once you install. That's the way I understood it. There was the whole argument of like saying like, OK, now it just makes it easier because this was all possible beforehand, but it just makes it easier for everyone else, or for those people who want to exploit it,

they just have to flick a switch to turn it on. But that would also only impact your own mempool, and you can't make decisions for others. So at the end of the day, the question would still be how many people actually activate this or not.

Obviously, in like the extreme cases, if no one does this, then everything will say the same. If everyone does it, then automatically everyone's transactions could all be replaced without flagging beforehand.

But it's nothing that changes with the transactions. It's just something that changes with your mempool settings. Yeah, I think you're right. The transaction relay setting is going to be default off, but people can turn it on.

It's the wallet setting that is turning the opt-in bit on its head, such that the default is that your transactions from Bitcoin core wallet, which, to be honest, not many people use, will be flagging for RBF.

But again, just to circle back, regardless of the second bit that I just said about the flagging, if everybody turns this, the mempool setting on, it doesn't really matter because that just means any transaction can be replaced anyway, because everybody will be able to relay that.

If there's a new transaction that is the child transaction, and everybody's happy to relay that transaction, then it doesn't matter whether it's like RBF or not, because it'll just get propagated around the network anyway.

Yeah. If you could choose, would you let this go through Q&A and Antimus? Like, if you had a yes, let's do it, or no, let's not make the chains, what would you do? I definitely, I'm in favor of keeping it the way to include the full RBF.

So, I mean, I think there are a few different arguments, I can see arguments on both sides, but I think the, for me, it's always been weird why people rely on zero conf. Anyway, it's kind of, at the moment, there are still only a few businesses, but if that grows over time, and there are more and more businesses that rely on zero conf,

at some point, we're kind of locked into that, and the pressures have come so large, I prefer to have it. It's kind of a full sense of security in a way, and I'd prefer it to be completely obvious for everyone that we're taking that risk on the one hand.

On the other hand, just for everyone to be able to bump their transactions when we have a sudden spike in like, mental size, that's really important. And also, if you just do a transaction by mistake or to the wrong address, or have some kind of error in there, or if someone tries to steal your funds,

and you still have a brief period of time to double spend that, I think those are all valid. In a way, I'm more on the side of more optionality for the user than more optionality for businesses.

Yeah, I agree with all of Antimacist's points. At the end of the day, if you run a node, you do it because you want to have a choice. So why not have a choice about fully RBF or not? And yeah, unconfirmed Bitcoin is not your Bitcoin, until you've got a confirmation.

You should act accordingly, and if you're a business, then you need to make adjustments to mitigate that risk, or continue, and just hope that people don't double spend your decision. I guess you have to, as a business, build in that risk, like into your cost, and sort of monitor it, I suppose.

Which you kind of would have to do, and you wouldn't have to do anyway, 'cause you would then see if something's flagged or not, so then you could decide whether you accept that or not. So you could manage your risk easier before.

That's the argument of moon and bit refill right now, is that if they see a transaction come in for a gift voucher that has got an RBF flag, they'll just won't accept it. And I'll just say, no, you've got the RBF flag.

It's easier for them to see. If everything's essentially RBF, then they cannot offer the stuff at zero comp without an increased risk. - Yeah, okay. I can see their point, but I think you two are probably right, that you're at risk regardless, and there's probably the benefits outweigh the negatives,

and we probably shouldn't have too much of these businesses building up, because I guess if it's, yeah, I don't know. I don't feel, I guess, strongly enough about either, but I can see why these businesses are like, fuck, like, I don't know what to do now.

- Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, maybe it's a bit out of place to bring this up now after our LND talk, but that was like why, well, that's the main case for lightning. I mean, if you want to give your customers instant, like your services, then use that.

I mean, in the case of BitRefill, obviously with Moon's business model, that's kind of what they're trying to combine there, and that's a pretty niche case. And it's a great service to get me wrong, but I think that in a way that doesn't outweigh the transparency and simplicity for the entire network.

I think it's just so much, it's such a much more clean system if we just have every transaction is RBF, and then not with different flags and so on, and here and there, and then you have to probe the entire network.

I mean, that's also the problem that these companies, I mean, like Moon and BitRefill, everyone who wants to do ZeroConf, they have to be really well connected in the entire network so that they pick up on double spends really fast.

They already have to do that now. And I think this does obviously like throw a wrench into that specific business model, but there will be other solutions around that, I think. - Can I ask a technical question that might help me understand this any better?

I would see if I can answer, that's a big question. - I make a transaction to buy one of these gift cards. I haven't flagged RBF and so BitRefill look at that and they go, okay, we'll accept this ZeroConf.

Could I, not me, but someone who has technical ability, do something slippery so that I can still fuck them, even though they can't see that flag, I can do something with that transaction, even though I don't have it flagged and they can't see it to fuck them over anyway.

- Yes, you can. - Yeah, I mean, one of the easiest ways is obviously to connect directly to a miner, or like have it like, you can even pass like F2, Paul, I mean, he, that's what he did with his, one of his transactions, you connect directly to a miner, you pay them an additional fee to then replace your transaction.

That's obviously why they have to do additional probing of the whole network to see, okay, is somewhere, I mean, if you've got a direct channel to a miner, that's pretty difficult for them to stop.

But, yeah, I don't think-- - Okay, I think I agree with both of you more now that I know that it makes more sense. - Yeah, and there are already now nodes that have full RBF implemented. I think it's from Peter Todd, he's definitely running a node with that configuration, and there are also some other patches that are already out there.

So if you connect directly to them, you'll have a higher chance of a replacement transaction propagating, even though the child didn't have a, it's not technically a child, but the previous transaction didn't have flagging.

- Okay. Makes sense. Okay, yeah, I mean, the next on the list was, now it's a few days ago, they, well, I think it was yesterday or the day before, not quite sure, there was the first hearing in the tornado cache trial, which has taken place in Holland.

That was like tornado cache, was like a mixing service on Ethereum. So this could, there was, there should be a few months back. They were taking down and the guy running it, Alexei Piautsev, I'm not quite sure bro butch at that name, but he was definitely caught and he's being tried at the moment,

and he's held in custody at the moment 'cause they're scared he'll flee if they let him out before the trial's over. Aaron from Weirdham and source provost, they were both there and put out a bit of a summary of the hearing and as it stands at the moment,

they, like the tornado cache, they had a similar system to what Bisk is using. So there's also a Dow and they've got like their own token with which they manage the whole thing. They affect these voting systems and so on.

I'm not like really sure of the exact details of all of that. But yeah, that's how they're doing it. And so their argument is kind of, yeah, it's a distributed system. So no single person has full control of all of this.

So this guy who's caught is, yeah, not singly to blame for the whole thing. But apparently he did hold a lot of the coins or these tokens. So it'll be interesting to see how they actually rule on this.

I think they'll start the actual trial in January. And this could be a precedent at least in the EU for similar situations also in Bitcoin in the future. Yeah. Worrying.

Yeah, definitely not setting a good precedent. Obviously we know no two lawmakers are the same, but and this is in a court on the base in the EU, but I'm sure if it's a favorable, when I say favorable, I mean, in terms of the regulator,

a decision or an outcome that will be used as leverage elsewhere around the world, as a precedent has been set to sort of govern more decentralized systems like this. So yeah, not good to hear and the fact that he's been sat banged up for without trial, yeah, without a proper trial is not good.

And yeah, just kind of have to keep a close eye on it, but not a nice one to watch unfold. Do any of you know like how that system worked? Did they, was it like a mixing service or was it also like a kind of coin join situation?

So did they actually hold funds or were they just coordinating? It was, no, it was fairly decentralized, I believe, such that it was operated by a smart contract. So it was just code running, presumably on a service somewhere.

So it wasn't like they never took custody of the ETH or assets that were sent in there for mixing. So it was quite analogous to the, you know, the non custodial options that we've got in the coin only space as well, which is kind of the worrying part.

Obviously they do have like the whole Dow thing around it and I'm not O'Fay with how, where the fees went 'cause clearly, you know, it was a paid service. So somebody somewhere was collecting fees and I'd imagine that is what the lawmakers are gonna use as leverage to say that you're profiteering

from quote on quote, terrorism, money laundering, you know, insert, bullshit buzzword here. I don't understand how that's different because all coin join implementations take a fee in Bitcoin as well.

Yeah, no, I agree. That's what I said before, you know, it's quite, in terms of like, it's a non custodial service that takes fees for giving users privacy. Yeah, it's absolutely similar to what we've got in Bitcoin, definitely, that's why it's worrying.

It's very worrying. And there's no real way, you know, there's no real other way of having it set up. Yeah, it's not good. Well, you can decentralize the coordination of it. So, you know, join market as an example is peer to peer.

So, but clearly there's still somebody there that is making fees from offering a coin join service. There's been chatter this week about summarized plans to decentralize the coordination of world pool as well, which would mean that there isn't one single central coordinating authority that's kind of saying

these five people have taken part in this coin join. But the fact remains is that that's a service, that's how they maintain their business is they collect coin join fees. So, the fees are still going to go to samurai for operating the liquidity pool.

So, how much that is going to obfuscate them from any potential bullshit laws and regulation that come down the line? I don't know, but we're just going to have to wait and see, I guess. Do you know what I would do is I would just put a nice chain analysis on the front end.

So, you could play nice and just be like, I won't accept anyone who's actually needs this. Do you know what I mean? That'd be quite nice. So, I know that we're making light of this, for maybe six months, maybe even more than that before this whole tornado cast thing went down, they were very open and honest to say

that they were OFAC compliant and that they were blacklisting addresses. Clearly, that hasn't saved them from the fate that we've just seen them unfold and that we've been talking about. - Oh, they were?

- Mm-hmm. So, all of this bullshit, you know, obviously, you know, it doesn't take a genius to work out that you're referring to, wasabi getting into bed with chain analysis. All of that preemptive stuff is what looks like it's going to be futile because they don't really care about it.

- Yeah, I think the bar that they're looking for is like the KYCA ML. That's what they want to have implemented to be compliant and not just the list of OFAC addresses. So, I mean, this is a tough one.

And especially, like, even if you'd say, like, if, like this is obviously very hypothetical and I wouldn't see this ever happening, but even if Samra would say, okay, we're not taking the fees anymore, like we're just going to do this for philanthropic reasons, that would also break the kind of model in itself

because the fees are obviously part of like the-- - Super-resistant, yeah. - Exactly. - Yeah, the street office. - Yes, and so on, yeah. So somewhere, I mean, obviously you could maybe do it with like burning coins with every participation, but I mean, yeah, that would be quite a leap to want that.

- And also, who's going to make the service better if they're not getting paid? You need that incentive. You need developers to be paid and people to be working on this, so. - Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, that's the same argument for any open source project and there are a lot of them out there

that do do development without being paid. But obviously, I mean, you want open source projects to be able to raise money so that they can be a lot better with it, and here there are actual costs with running servers and so on.

- And like Sparrow integrating it and that being a way to bring some stats in, like I saw that as a really clever and interesting way that like could work with a lot of people going forward and then, you know, you have all this shit going on with tornado cash and that precedent being set

and then it's like maybe does that deter other people? 'Cause that seemed to be a fucking amazing model. - Yeah, it's the perfect way to monetize. You know, your users are, you're offering a service to your users so, you know, they're getting a benefit from your service and you're getting paid

to prolong that service and develop it further for your troubles. So, yeah, it's the perfect model. And especially the Whirlpool model itself, being the other developer teams like Greg Sparo can plug into that existing, you know, leverage that code and all the work that Samurai's already done, but then integrate it into their system

to give users more optionality and also take a cut of the fees that run through Sparo wallet, Whirlpool clients. It's, yeah, it's a great business model and longer may it continue. - Amen.

Before you get, go to town on the SPF, FTX stuff, Antimus, there's just two software things that we've missed. Just wanted to give a shout out to Nunchuk, the mobile, well, mobile and desktop book, primarily the most well known for their mobile wallet and that's interoperable with various different hardware

wallets, it does collaborative multi-sig in quite a nice way so that you can do it with some friends over encrypted channels. They've got probably unique features. They went fully open source this week.

So, up until this week, the source code for their mobile wallet was not available to view. It just literally wasn't even source available, let alone free and open source. This week they've published the source and they've also licensed it under GPL which is like a typical copy left open source license

which will give other developers an incentive to look at the code, to fork it, to improve it and even create their own copy of it if they want to to try and keep competition alive and continue holding Nunchuk accountable so that users, the end user is a winner from this healthy competition.

So, from my role foundation, I've been working with the guys in the background on our integration with Passport and stuff. They've been an absolute pleasure to work with so I just wanted to give them a shout out and say that from me personally at least that I really appreciate that they've chosen

to go the open source route for their mobile wallet. To be clear, their desktop wallet always has been their open source. One thing to add there as well, that one thing that always put me off from using it was that you had to sign up with an email address to create an account and they've also now like integrated a different option

so that you can use like one of your keys to sign in so you don't need to-- - Yeah, guess mode, isn't it, it's called? - Yeah. - Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah. - Yeah, and the final update which was actually from the end of September but we haven't recorded since then, it was a Samurai wallet, the 0.99.98 F, ever closer to that version one.

They released a new user interface for the collaborative transaction so Stonewall X2 and Stonewall way to vastly simplify the process of performing coin joins with friends remotely over the tour network, massive, massive improvement.

I think they've got some videos documenting the changes on their YouTube channel and they've also added a new feature called Joinbot which essentially means that you can make collaborative spend transactions from your Samurai wallet without manually choosing a collaborator.

So if you're out on your own in the Bitcoin space and you don't know any other Samurai or spiral wallet users that have paynims, you can ping the Samurai server, pay them a small fee and have them mix some of their UTXOs with your UTXOs such that anybody other than you or Samurai wallet that look at your transaction

on the blockchain and are far more confused than it would be if you were, you know, didn't have any friends and just did a simple spend from wallet A to wallet B so you can get the benefit.

So yeah, a great feature for, obviously you're sharing certain UTXO information with the Samurai server because they're part of that transaction but obviously, you know, there's no user names or accounts in Samurai so all they're seeing is a UTXO and an onion address.

So the information that's shared is absolutely minimal and a really great option for somebody to use, you know, in a pinch but wants to make, literally make every spend a coin join. - Nice, looking forward to that.

'Cause I haven't actually updated yet. So that's something that I'm still on my list to do. Looking forward to that. Yeah, well, I don't know how much we have to actually go with this topic at all.

Just like, I don't know, from my perspective, like the last few weeks with the whole FTX debacle, I was just absolutely shattered to see all the horrible stories of people losing so much money.

Obviously, personal responsibility, but man, that was tough. On the other side, like self custody is the only, only way to go. And I've never been personally more happy about that fact for myself but also for everyone else.

I know who does that. And if the slight chance that there is still someone listening to this who has not taken their coins off their exchange, do it and do it now. Like, don't take that risk.

'Cause it will happen again. And in a year's time, everyone would have forgotten. And the whole thing will start again and it will come crashing down a year later. And we'll be staying here again, talking about this.

- Pretty much. - Yeah, not nice to see. And just a reminder of all the lessons that your Bitcoin that's on an exchange is not your Bitcoin. Take it into your own custody, even if that means it's on a mobile wallet.

A lot of the hot wallet risk that you hear is, in my opinion, is overblown. And you're definitely safer having all of your Bitcoin on a mobile wallet than you are leaving it with some scammy exchange that's running a Ponzi scheme, losing bed with regulators and politicians, et cetera, who can apparently make billions of dollars

disappear overnight and then legally jet off to the Bahamas to live out the rest of your life without any recourse. So yeah, the fact that he's not in prison yet, or at least being brought in for questioning is absolutely baffling my brain.

- Look at the opposite ends of the scale. You've got someone who is helping people keep their privacy and keep them safe and they are locked up and have been for months and no one lost any funds.

And then you've got this fucking prick who has lost billions and he's just in the Bahamas. That is not justice. - And we're not only talking about fractional reserve, like that they just didn't have the same amount that they should have had.

They literally had zero Bitcoin. Like zero Bitcoin, like nothing. Like, I mean, absolutely crazy, absolutely crazy. - Yeah, so he was selling IOUs that were IOUs to him as well. So if that makes sense.

So anybody that had an account on FTX had an IOU, they thought they had some Bitcoin and clearly Mr. Bank-Mafrit also had some IOUs from wherever, some claims on Bitcoin that he also didn't have.

Yeah, literally the definition of a Ponzi scheme. And aside from all of the sadness where people have been burned and probably lost their life savings, there's a shred of indication for people like us who've been screaming about self custody for ever in a day.

And sometimes you do have to touch the fire or to touch the stove, to see the light. And yeah, I think, yeah, the pessimist in me will agree with what Antimus said and in 12 months time, this will all be forgotten.

And the next big exchange conglomerate will be rising to stardom and everybody else will have the coins on there. So yeah, it just drives me even harder to strive to make self custody as easy as possible so that we don't have to deal with all this bullshit year after year after year.

Yeah, well summarised. Yeah, I mean, I don't think we have to go into all the details with the whole thing. I think that was dickhead steals everyone's money. Yeah. Any other bits to cover from anyone?

I don't, Antimus, me and you are gonna sit down again very shortly so we'll cover all the bits that you've been getting up to, but Q&A, any bits from you or any thoughts? No, all good, I think.

We are finally clearing down all the pre-orders for passport and just after Thanksgiving today. So when the factory reopens next week, the last couple of orders will be going out. Then shortly after that, we'll have stock of passports to be shipped as soon as they're ordered.

So if you've been waiting in the wings so that you don't have to deal with any of the pre-order delays, then your time is coming within the next couple of weeks and they'll be on the shelf ready to be dispatched aside from that.

Yeah, we're still working hard on Envoy to expand the feature set there and got some exciting things coming up over the next couple of months that is gonna widen or make Envoy a lot more useful to people that don't have passport.

Let's just say that. Nice. If you do go and order one of those, use the code bit by bit and get your $10 off and let them know that I'm shilling hard. Nicely done, nicely done. Cool. Well, if that's all, oh, one thing I wanted to just mention was for anyone who missed it, I had Urban Hacker on the show last episode.

If you haven't already listened, go and have a listen, but basically he is building a orange pill simulator. It's pretty cool, like MS-DOS based game looking thing to help onboard people and get them to learn about privacy and all sorts of other things.

So yeah, he's doing something really cool, so check that out. Definitely will do. Pleasure chatting to you as always, guys. We'll catch you hopefully next month, we won't leave it so long this time.

Yeah, so is it 20? Is it 20 this time you said? This is number 20, yeah, I checked on the website before we started recording and the last one on those 19. Okay, all right. So we just skipped two months though.

Yes, is it two months? Yeah, I think it was two. Okay, yeah, okay. I think a lot of that was just the mining month just whacked me out and yeah, I've been catching up ever since. All right, guys.

Well, we will speak soon. Catch you later, guys, bye. See you, bye. Thanks for listening and a massive thank you to everyone who has been supporting this show on Fountain. A huge thank you to my anonymous sponsor.

I know we are past the three month stage now but I have not forgotten what you've done for the show and I really, really appreciate it. I'd also like to thank Mr. Crown for making the Ungovernable Misfits website so fucking beautiful.

And for everyone who's been contributing articles and jumping on pods and everything else. So if you haven't already checked it out, go to ungovernablemisfits.com. If you have any questions at all, you can reach out to me.

All of my info is at the bottom of the show notes.