Bitcoin privacy, security and mining with Lili

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Yeah.

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and deliver to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Today's episode is with Lily. This is her first ever podcast, and I really enjoyed recording it. We covered so much ground, but mainly focused on privacy, security, and mining. We'll definitely have to do this again.

There were so many more topics that I wanted to go into, and actually I wanted to go into more depth on some of them as well, but I try and keep these shows under an hour and a half. So we'll do something again soon, I'm sure.

I do just want to mention in this podcast, we do mention Compass Mining, and I want to just separate a company from an idea. I've always said on this podcast that I will be 100% upfront to my listeners.

I consider you to be friends and family, and the last thing I want to do is point you in a direction that I don't believe in myself. This is obviously going to scupper any sort of chance that I would have a sponsorship with these guys, but I've got to be honest.

I'm not going to sit here and slag them off, but my experience hasn't been great. I haven't received my miners at the time that I was supposed to. They haven't been plugged in at the time they were supposed to.

They have been pushed back a few times now. Although I paid the money I was asked to, I certainly haven't received what I paid for. Now, this is no reflection on Lily. She's been incredibly helpful, and she's tried to do everything she can for me, and the many, many others who have been DMing me and messaging me and asking me

if I've received mine because they haven't received theirs. This doesn't mean that Compass don't do things correctly going forward, and just to be clear, this is for hosting. This is not for home mining, and so really, I have to wear this responsibility.

It is my own fault. When I was ordering them, I did think to myself, "Hmm, this is the third party. "You should really be doing this yourself, "but I was enticed in because I didn't have the space "to run these things myself, "and the energy costs are just so much lower "than we can ever conceive of in the UK."

But my gut instinct was that this is not the correct way to do things and that I should be mining at home, so I have to wear that and realize that I have to listen to my gut in the future.

This does not mean you can't put the miners from them. It also does not mean that you won't get your online date, the date that they promise. Maybe I was just particularly unlucky with the other group of people, but I feel it is my duty to report, honestly, on this stuff.

I'll keep you up to date if I do get my miners on board, and I'm sure once I'm earning some stats, I will be a happy customer going forward. And again, I want to make sure that this does not put people off mining.

I really am finding it a fascinating subject. I'm definitely gonna dip my toe in more. I'm gonna try some home mining. Yes, it's gonna be a loss, but I'm gonna give it a go and see how it goes and report back so that people can get some feedback.

And yeah, it's just fucking cool if nothing else. So definitely don't write that off just because of issues with Compass, and make sure you do some digging in, do your research before you start mining.

Before we dive in, I just want to say thank you to my new show sponsors, Foundation Devices. I had Zach, their CEO on, I think it was three episodes ago. I absolutely love the passport. This is their hardware wallet they've designed and built.

It's fully open source and it uses QR scanning. It also has PSBT. It's just a beautiful device that's really simple to use and very, very secure. I'm so happy with mine. I've used it ever since I did my trial with it.

I had it for some product testing, and it's quickly become my favorite hardware wallet to use on a day-to-day basis. Also, they have hired my good friend, Bitcoin Q&A, which fills me with confidence.

I know the foundation devices are gonna do great things. They have an awesome team. Their vision is brilliant and I love the design. Like it's really cool to start seeing some proper design coming into this space.

If you haven't checked it out already, I suggest you do at foundationdevices.com. If you use the code bit by bit, at checkout, you will get $10 off your purchase. And I promise you, you will not be disappointed.

This thing is awesome. If you have any questions at all before ordering or afterwards, you can reach out to the team or me and I'd be happy to answer any questions. Enjoy the show. Lily, welcome to the show.

Thanks for coming on and I wanna say thank you as well for putting the word out there about the podcast. You've been promoting and letting people know about it. So I really appreciate that.

It's been nice to get to know you a little bit off air and see the things that you've been doing. So this is one I particularly looked forward to and get into all the things we talked about off air.

So welcome. - Well, thanks for having me, Max. And anytime, you know, like if I find something that's high signal, I like people to know about it, especially, you know, these podcasts, like you hear the same thing over and over again.

And that's not what I like to listen to. So when I came across yours, I was like, "Wow, this is actually interesting." And talks more than just about like your typical, like, stack sats and hodl and like, you know, Bitcoin's gonna save the world.

Like there's actually substance here. - Thank you. Well, yeah, it's just, I think that's just happened naturally over time because I've genuinely just got bored of that. It wasn't how I entered the space.

It was definitely something that interested me at the start. And just after a while, I was just like, "Fuck, this is dull." I cannot hear one more person say the same thing and just repeat themselves.

And so it's kind of naturally happened that I just ended up getting on all the people that I was like, right, I respect their opinion or I like what they're doing or building and they're actually creating something.

And then just through speaking to them, I think it just changed my perception of the whole thing. I think that's how it's happened really. It's interesting to see what you're doing with all the free open source stuff.

And that's kind of how I found you. We seem to mix in the same circles. What was it that drew you in? - To Bitcoin or to like open source software? - Well, we'll start with open source software.

We can get to the Bitcoin story in a bit, but yeah, what is it that draws you in there and makes you want to be involved in it and promoting it? - Well, I mean, like the first thing about FOSS is that you have, it's open so everybody can look at it and see what's going on with it.

It's like software that promotes, you know, longevity and security because you have people that can contribute, that can add to it, they can change it, they can fork it. And Bitcoin itself is an open source project.

Like without open source software, we wouldn't have Bitcoin. So I think that was like the first gateway to getting me involved with open source. And then it started, I want to say in the end of 2020, when I started reading about like the cypherpunks and like their movement to develop censorship resistant technology and like really fight,

you know, the surveillance state 'cause we have two, I guess silos of technology right now. We have, you know, the open source censorship resistant tech. And then we have like what the technocrats are creating, which is software that is, it's not bad software.

It's very convenient and easy to use, but that comes with a catch, right? Like we sell our data, we sell our privacy. We give up a lot of our autonomy for convenience and I just didn't want to do that anymore.

You know, just reading about what the US government has been doing to people since the Patriot Act was passed in Congress. I just didn't want to be a part of that anymore. I didn't want to sell my privacy.

And I think through privacy, like that's how I found open source. And it really started by replacing one app at a time. Like you're not going to go from being totally exposed to Google and like Apple services, for example, to being this like super sovereign like privacy focused person.

So really it started by like dumping the notes app and going to standard notes, like dumping my iCloud for next cloud. It was just like one thing at a time. - It's a good approach. It can be overwhelming otherwise.

You know, you sort of, we rely on so much, so many different types of software and so many different applications. And you get used to them, you get comfortable with them and to try and just do it all at once.

I think people get themselves in real problems. So yeah, that approach of sort of switching them out. And it's nice to see more and more people talking about it. You know, sometimes it's starting with the hardware and moving maybe across to Linux from Apple and slowly then just switching out all these different applications.

But it's getting easier and easier because people are talking about it and it's less scary that way, which is cool. - Yeah, I mean, I think it's awesome. Like people need to be aware that this software exists and it's like community driven, which makes it so much better.

Like it drives innovation and competition. If you close your source code, then there's nobody to innovate on it. Like who's to say that developer that's working on closed source software will be able to really maintain and compete?

Like you simply can't compete with open source. - Yeah, I agree. Certainly long term anyway. I feel like it's gonna become glaringly obvious that it's the way to go. As more people are starting to wake up, not in the sense that some of us have and we're like totally concerned with what the governments are doing and really black-pilled.

But a lot of people, even normies, they're sort of going, I don't trust Facebook because I've seen on Netflix as a show or someone said to me that they're using these algorithms to control me and even sort of people you wouldn't expect are starting to question things.

And maybe they're not actually thinking about free open source software or even know what it is yet. But I think it's gonna become glaringly obvious to people which one to go for, given time.

And that's why it's so important that people talk about it and people actually report on their experience with it, which is what I've liked about what you're doing is that you're actually letting people know, "Well, this is what I'm doing.

"This is how I'm doing it and this is why it's important." And not in a arrogant dickheadish type of way which a lot of people do. They seem to look down their nose on people and think that because they are very skilled and very technical, that gives them the right to look down their nose at people.

And that really irritates me. So it's nice to see the approach you're taking. - Yeah, I mean, it's pretty funny though, the people who do take that approach with arrogance and like a condescending demeanor that actually drives people away from open source and away from the tech that they're promoting.

I mean, sure, it might work in the short term. You might scare someone into trying that software. But just based on the interactions I've had, I just like try the tech, I write about it. Like I give like, here's the step-by-step of how to download it.

'Cause sometimes like it's really not intuitive for someone to go on GitHub and download something. Like I had to ask someone how to do it like the first time I did. So I'm like, you literally go here and you click on this and download this version.

And then I didn't know there was so much controversy like surrounding open source. Like I've gotten a lot of mean comments about what I'm promoting saying that like, I don't understand things or I'm wrong.

They're so source viewables enough. But the thing is they don't tell me why I'm wrong. Like just if you think I'm wrong, like please explain. And like every time somebody fights with me, I get DMs asking about like the tech that I'm talking about.

Because people can see through it, right? Like someone who's gonna go out and like personally attack someone is weak. And it shows their like lack of self-confidence. Like they don't know what's happening in the DMs.

Like they don't know that a lot of people are catching onto this and they can't just, I guess like pretend like everything shows online. Like people reveal themselves. So I actually welcome the criticism.

I think it just brings more people into open source. - Yeah, it's interesting you say about people DMing you because I get a similar thing where it's almost like people are too scared to ask the question because they don't wanna be dumb.

They don't wanna have people take the piss out of them or call them stupid or like attack them and bully them. And so quite often people will reach out to me and they'll ask questions that they wouldn't otherwise ask and they won't ask openly on Twitter because they don't wanna be demonized.

And then it's a case of me 'cause, you know, you've listened to the show, I'm fucking idiot. I don't know how to use this stuff. So I'll then point them in the direction of Q and A or someone like that and just say, read this.

If you still have problems, ask me again, I'll point you. So it's almost like I'm like a broker in the middle of like I don't really know how to do half the stuff but I know where to point them kind of thing.

And it's interesting to see when they then report back 'cause most of the time they're very, very happy and they don't miss what they had before and they're more free and moving the right direction which is really cool to see.

- Yeah, no, I agree with you. Like there's so much that I don't know how to do. Like I feel like I'm just like putting out information and people, like they like to see someone talk about it.

Like it makes them more comfortable to ask these questions. I guess one of the biggest criticisms I get is like, you talk about privacy so much. Like why do you show your face online? But, you know, people like to like learn from somebody.

A face is like inviting to them. Like it's brought, I feel like more people into the fold like because I show my face, you know? Like I don't see why that should be a criticism. - It's a difficult one, that one.

I've spoken to a lot of people who are like on the fence. Like I spoke to Matt about it a while ago and he was like, oh, sort of, sometimes I wish I could go back and I could be a NIM completely.

And then on the other side, exactly what you've said, like people trust a face, you know? The fact that someone's a NIM makes it much more difficult to trust them. And yes, once you get into Bitcoin and get into this kind of stuff and you spend enough time within these groups and communities,

sometimes these NIMs end up becoming your best friend and you've never even seen them and it doesn't seem to matter. But I do agree, like for outsiders coming in, seeing someone's face really makes it more approachable.

But do you ever sort of think, ah, if I could go back, I would, or are you comfortable with showing your face? You know, because I know some of the things that you talk about, you're pretty black-pilled and I wondered if you ever sort of think, ah, shit, that was a mistake because people are gonna come for me

in time, 'cause you know we're all gonna be terrorists very soon. - Yeah, I mean, definitely. I'd be lying if I said that I didn't have days where I regret showing my face. I have days where I'm like, I just wish I didn't even come online and talk about anything because of all of the hate that I get

and I know that, you know, they have like facial recognition, technology is a thing, that might be used against me someday. I don't really know. But I mean, like think about the other side.

Like you have people who do show their face, I guess, like for lack of better word, these influencers, they're not talking about this stuff. They're not talking about privacy. They're not talking about like Bitcoin privacy and buying non KYC.

They're not talking about Bitcoin mining. Like when you come, when someone comes into this space, that's the first thing they see is they see these big names, like throwing out these narratives.

I actually joined, I was on Twitter before, I guess, I like showed my face, I was kind of lurking and saw that there was a need for somebody to come out and, you know, share the other side.

So I feel like I, overall, like I don't regret it. Like I don't regret, you know, being myself and sharing what I have to share. Like I know my threat model, like nobody knows like how I handle my Bitcoin or like my data or anything like that.

So I don't feel like it's a bad thing that I'm like, I guess more public. I guess now too, that I joined a Bitcoin company. That's, it's kind of a given. Like I'm out in the public. There's really nothing I can do about it, except like use it to my advantage now.

- I've got you loud and clear, am I coming through? - Yes, you are. - Yeah, and there's no delay now, I don't think. That's better. You have the same problems with internet as I do. - Yeah, I mean, I don't even live in the rural area, so I don't understand why it's this bad.

It's the three letter agencies trying to make our lives difficult because they're scared of us. - Yeah, I mean, they already have eyes on us, it's fine. (laughing) - That they do, that they definitely do.

Where do we lose each other there? We were talking about you showing your face, getting abuse for showing your face and your thoughts on sort of the trade-offs of it.

- Okay, yeah, I mean, I guess what I was trying to say is I really don't regret showing my face overall. I mean, honestly, it was really hard in the beginning, like when I first joined Bitcoin, Twitter, people were really mean, they were calling me Spook, saying that I was like, I've never seen another person get this kind of abuse,

at least like another user. People at first, they were like, are you actually a girl? Are you just pretending to be one? This is so ridiculous, what is wrong with people? (laughing) - Yeah, it's sad to hear that that goes on.

I guess people asking, oh, you're really a girl, you're in this industry. I guess it's just because there are very, very few females who are in this industry, especially who are interested in free open source software, the sort of stuff that you're talking about, in mining and in the circles that you're in,

and then sort of mixed with that, you just have a lot of really sad keyboard warriors who like to bully people. It's like, you know, you get the same everywhere, you're always gonna have some sad fucker who just wants to attack people, and it is a shame, but did you find that affected you at the beginning?

- I mean, look, I'm a person at the end of the day, I mean, there are people behind these screens, and like, yeah, it did a little bit, but it's one of my old mentors, like always told me, like, people are gonna say things, and when they say things, that's a reflection of them and their own insecurities, not really about you.

And I guess it's kind of, I guess flattering in a way that the criticism I've gotten has had nothing to do with the technology that I'm talking about. It's literally just about, you know, why am I showing my face, or saying that I'm not credible because of how I look, or like, accusing me of being a Fed.

I don't know where that comes from, honestly. Maybe that's just an internet culture thing. (laughing) - Everyone's a spook, if someone doesn't agree with you on Bitcoin Twitter, then you're a spook.

- I think they're just afraid of the message. Like, you know, they're stacking sets through these like KYC on ramps and exchanges, and then you have someone talking about, you know, buying non-KYC and mining, like completely like breaking down the narratives that, you know, the influencers are throwing out to people.

It's hard to admit that you're doing things wrong. I mean, it was hard for me 'cause I started off making all the mistakes. - And so, were you finding it was the NGU bros who were attacking you more, or was it the privacy side that were attacking you more?

'Cause they seem to be very separate camps. - I wonder which side it is, or is it just everyone's just like, "Ah, you're fucking spook." And just attacking you from all angles. - You know what?

Some of the privacy people like were skeptical, which I get it, right? But if you want people to use the technology and to like care about their privacy, like you have to be relatable. You have to be, you can't be so paranoid, so closed off because that's not how you get adoption.

Like you don't get adoption by sitting in your basement and tweeting about this anti-government stuff in like such a brass way. And then you had, of course, like team NGU, like always attacking me.

Attacking me for my take on Michael Saylor when I said he was bad for Bitcoin. - You can't say that. You're not allowed to say that. That's an unwritten rule. Any time I do it, I get people most cry.

They're like, "No, you can't say that." It's a weird, it's like a weird cult sort of thing. But good on you. I mean, you speak your mind, I like it. - But the thing is like they go off of this, don't trust verify.

I give them evidence, okay, Michael Saylor did this. He said this, he's flirting with regulators, whatever. And they come back with me and say, "Oh, he's playing 40 chess." Like, please give me evidence instead of calling me an idiot.

Like it's just, it's very interesting, but we have to remember that the dynamics of I guess Bitcoin holders, like you have the normal distribution curve and you have the right side and the left side.

And then you have this middle column. The middle column is usually like your typical like white collar people who are relatively smart, relatively successful in the fiat world, they don't get Bitcoin, right?

And then you have the right side, which is people who, well, I guess are smarter about it. Like they understand why we have Bitcoin, that it's P to P digital cash, it's for us to create a circular economy.

I mean, the Genesis block literally says banks, the Fed's like on the brink of bailout of like banks, like they're making fun of the system. It's not for us to just like hold it and have it as an investment.

But then you have the left side, right? The moon boys, they just wanna pump their bags, like they just care about fiat gains. They think Bitcoin's gonna fix everything, but Bitcoin's a tool.

It doesn't fix anything on its own. So when they see someone like Sailor who's pumping their bags, like why, of course, they're gonna support it. Same thing happened recently with the hash rate migration into the United States.

Like people are cheering on like this, what's developing is like a large concentration of hash rate in the US. But that's really terrible because if we get to a point where we share the proportion of hash rate that China had before the ban, like we are in the same boat of where we started, we have a large concentration of hash rate

in one jurisdiction. So why is it bad that China had it, you know, it is worse. - Yeah, I think it's probably the sort of topics that you're diving into and discussing are ones that people get defensive about because they wanna protect their bags because they don't want to accept that Bitcoin does have weak points.

And that we do have to be a bit careful. And it's not like, you know, it's very easy to be like, ah, Bitcoin's unstoppable. No one can fucking touch it. It's like, well, it's really hard, but you know, nothing's impossible.

And if you have that approach of like, oh, well, we're untouchable, then you're gonna trip up because you're not gonna have your head on a swivel. And that's why I really appreciate when people do bring these things up.

And they do question things because sometimes you can bring something up and you could be wrong. But at least you're trying. At least you're looking. I don't think the same can be said for a lot of people on Bitcoin, Twitter.

And that's a shame. But you have to kind of look at it as some people are literally just here for the money. They really are and they might not accept it. And it's not so much about a revolution.

It's not so much about change. I suppose that's why we have these different camps. But you do find that people will switch over. You know, you do have people who, they'll start in one and they'll end in the other.

And it does feel like a natural progression. Was that something that happened with you? Like when you entered the Bitcoin space, were you already from a tech background or finance back? 'Cause I noticed you had markets by lilies is your handle.

So then when I first saw that, I was like, oh, I wonder if you were like into some sort of trading or something like that. Was that the way you entered? - So my background is a blended background of finance and computer science.

Like before I joined the Bitcoin space, I was in high finance. So I started off working at a big bulge bracket bank in New York. I was an investment banker. And then I switched over to investment management at another bulge bracket bank.

And I was in charge of running portfolios for these ultra high net worth clientele. So these were people with $30 million plus in investable assets. So really I came across Bitcoin while I was there at this company.

I'm an equity specialist by background. So I've always understood inflation. I always knew that the Federal Reserve was corrupting our money. I never had a savings account in my life. Like when I turned 18, all my money went into the stock market.

Everything went into big tech. And it was just looking for like these market dislocations. I learned options strategies at 19. I wasn't thinking about the impact that inflation had because I found a way around it.

So I didn't find the need for Bitcoin. I didn't even know about Bitcoin until 2018. Like I had never heard of it. But the way I like found it was like end of 2017, beginning of 2018, I was like shit coin trading.

I saw Bitcoin. I was like, oh, this is too expensive. Like I don't really like need this. I don't know what it is. And then the crash happened. I had like lost everything that I made because I took profits in one coin.

I rolled it into another like towards the end of the cycle. And I lost everything. So I was like, hey, whatever, like I don't deal with this. Like I'm going back to equities. So then in the beginning of 2018, I joined this company where I started off as a research analyst.

But then like I was promoted to like assistant portfolio manager and eventually took over the portfolios completely. And that's when I started thinking, OK, I'm not an equity specialist anymore.

Like I have to manage bonds. I have to build these bond portfolios. I have to hedge. So come winter of 2018, the Federal Reserve tried to raise rates. They raised by a quarter of a percentage.

The market freaked out dumped 15% that month. Bonds dumped, gold dumped. Like everything just died. I was like, OK, well, how am I going to protect these people's money if everything is like moving the same way?

So I just started looking for an asset that had a correlation. I guess that wasn't correlated to the stock market. And then I came across Bitcoin. Someone was talking about it in an article about like that is digital gold.

So I just ran a stat analysis on it. And I found that the correlation between stocks and Bitcoin was around like 0.6 at the time. I was like, OK, this is perfect. It has a great track record.

It's a super well-performing asset. And it's not correlated. So I went to pitch it to my team. They all laughed at me, said that I was crazy. And then my boss said, I don't want you bringing this up to clients.

It's a liability for me and for this team. So he basically buried the idea. And this was around like 8K Bitcoin. I was like, OK, fine, whatever. So he just created all this work for me to build option strategies, because that's the only thing I was allowed to do.

I started buying Bitcoin for myself at the end of 2018. I was just like buying on Coinbase, like dollar costing, like into it. And then I continued, you know, with equities. And then I found like the Stefan-Lavera podcast and started diving into what it actually means in the context of like the financial system

and like what's going on in the world. And that's when I started seeing that, OK, Bitcoin is not just for making money, but it's really like a way for us to exit the system and build our own economies, to not be reliant on the federal government so that we could like have real sovereignty.

So that's kind of like how my like evolution was. Like I was doing all the things that I guess most of the bigger accounts tell people to do dollar cost averaging instead of going like super heavy in the beginning.

I thought mining was scary and unattainable. I thought it was expensive and complicated, which is completely wrong. It's an interesting way that you've come in because of your handle. I thought that maybe you had some background, but I didn't know quite in what area.

So that's interesting to know the fact that you already knew that there was an issue and that you had to park any wealth that you had into the stock market and you couldn't keep it in a current account, puts you in a position that is quite different to the average person because the average person is not

even considering something like that. And that's where I personally saw myself as quite lucky because my previous business was property and I understood from a fairly young age that you do not keep anything in the bank, you want to be putting your money where it's going to work for you.

And so that was for a long time I was doing that. And then the regulation and all the bullshit that comes along with it and having tenants that you couldn't get out and all this crazy stuff that I had to deal with.

I was at my wit's end and that's why when I found Bitcoin, I was like, oh fuck, this is amazing. This is literally property just without the tenants and without the risk. So it sounds like we came in with a similar view.

What flipped it for you? Where did that point happen? Where you went? Obviously you said you're listening to Stefan and you realize this is not just about making the money but can you remember was there a point in time where it suddenly sort of started to click and you were like, oh shit, okay, no, this is so much bigger than just money?

I think as cliche as it might sound but I came across that image, you know, that the WEF World Economic Forum promo that said you'll own nothing and you'll be happy. (laughing) Yeah. Yeah.

I came across this image. Like I wanna say like April 2020 and this was like at the peak of the COVID scam dynamic, honestly. Like I thought this was, at first I like believed the news, right?

I thought like this was gonna be like a real disease that was gonna kill like thousands of people. Like I went and like stocked up on stuff and I actually bought a lot of equipment from the black market, like, you know, like medical stuff and I donated to these like healthcare institutions and these workers to try to help.

Of course now like they don't wanna help me like they want to deny services to people who don't like comply, which is kind of sad but coming across that I was like, oh wait, Bitcoin is money.

You know, like that was like the big, big realization. I'm like, we can use this to opt out because what comes in, like what comes with all of this propaganda was the CBDC talk. So I'm like a huge, I dig through a lot of like legal filings and like congressional hearings, like I'm just used to keeping up with that

because like a lot of my like old clients demanded that from me. They wanted me to keep up with regulation and I came across this archive that was showing a first draft of the COVID relief bill.

And within that bill, there was language about Fed accounts and it said that, you know, we're gonna have these Fed accounts so that we can distribute money to people in times of crisis more easily.

So we don't run into issues with distributions for things like stimulus checks. This bill was written before the supposed issues with the stimulus check distributions. So I was like, okay, there's something weird like happening.

And I guess at that point it was like, yep, they just want financial control. - They don't even hide it anymore. That's the amazing thing. It's like, you don't have to dig that deep to be like, oh, right.

Yeah, this is not about health. And this is not about helping people. This is completely about control. Yeah, once you work that out, it doesn't take long to sort of see everything through that lens.

Have you found that that's difficult to live with? You know, I imagine probably from your previous work and acquaintances, you're probably the crazy freak now, you know, or with family and stuff like that or have you managed to orange pills the people around you as well?

- Well, I mean, I understand that a lot of the views I have are very fringe. But the way that I approach orange pills is I tailor it to the person I'm talking to. Like you wanna relate it to their situation.

Like the first thing I do is explain it from an economic standpoint. The same way I explain like equities to them. Like why would you want to quote unquote invest in Bitcoin? But then I explain, you know, what Bitcoin is and what was said in the white paper and then relate it to what's going on in the world.

And I tell people, I'm like, if you want Bitcoin as an investment, go ahead and stack KYC sets, but that's an investment that's not sound money. If you wanted to sound money, I can help you like find out ways like how you can buy like non KYC.

Like why would you, why should you do non KYC versus KYC? And usually like, I've never had somebody who didn't take an option from me. Like they, they're pretty receptive. Like I'm not, I don't approach things like, oh, you better buy this sound money or you're gonna be poor.

Like nobody wants to hear that. That's not how you, you orange pill somebody. - It's true. You don't want to scare the shit out of them either. Early days when I was like really getting into all this and the reason I was approached about it was because I've always been very anti-government

and pro cash and the guy who approached me was like, look, you're gonna fucking love this mate. Trust me, you're gonna love this because of X, Y, and Z. And as soon as I started working it out, I was going around and badgering people and literally badgering them, like attacking them going, the financial markets are gonna crash.

You're gonna lose your fucking house. The people are coming after you. You're gonna lose all your freedoms. Read 1984 again. That's what's gonna happen to you. You're gonna end up in the goot.

I was at all that, like an on the attack. And everyone's like, whoa, fuck off. Leave me alone. You're a nutter. And it took a while to realize that like, okay, slow down, that's the wrong approach.

Let's go with some positivity and change your pitch a little bit. And yeah, you're absolutely right. You have to tailor it to them and you have to put it in a way that doesn't make you sound like a complete lunatic.

- Yeah, you know, it's a balance between fear and optimism. You don't wanna be naive and tell them, buy this and it's gonna fix all your problems because at the end of the day, it is money, right?

Like anything that you couldn't fix with fiat, you can't fix with Bitcoin. You're not gonna get better as a person if you have Bitcoin. Bitcoin's just gonna enable you to have time to improve those things that you want to improve about yourself.

But yeah, I try not to sound like, I guess like someone who's crazy. I'm just, I'm like really good at like the art of war, like strategic conversations 'cause I spent like five years, you know, with the suits, like you kind of have to like know what to say and when to say it.

It's very different than the Bitcoin space where I can kind of just say things. Sometimes without thinking about it, I don't have to hide certain parts of my personality. Like I can just go out and like say what I wanna say.

And suit culture and like when you're trying to pitch something to a client, you can't do that. Like you just have to learn about them first and then pitch them an idea. - Yeah, that's very true.

It's so different, completely different worlds. When you're speaking to these people and you're saying, okay, you can do, you can either do an investment side and you can go KYC and all that kind of side of things or let me find a solution for you.

When you're offering up these solutions for KYC free sets, that's the first time, by the way, for about three weeks that I've been able to say KYC free sets. I keep getting it jumbled. So that's good.

But yeah, when you're doing that, are you straight away going to them? Let me tell you about this thing called mining or are you going in with a different approach? 'Cause obviously, and we'll get onto this in a minute, you're working with Compass, you're very involved in the mining, is that straight what you go for

or do you try and do something different? - I mean, honestly, like mining is, yeah, at first glance, it's very intimidating and it's very foreign to a lot of people. Like, they don't understand that Bitcoin mining is really the digital version of, I guess, gold mining.

Like you want, first it's like explaining to them that you have this mining in Bitcoin to secure the network because you want the money that you use to take work to create. You don't want something that you can just control P and like enter into the economy.

So usually before I tell them about mining, I'm like, okay, let's just get you off zero KYC. So I usually send them to like a Bitcoin ATM. Everybody knows how to use those. Like everybody, if you know how to use an ATM, you can use a Bitcoin ATM.

And then I will like walk them through like how to use that Bitcoin to find the bisque escrow and place trades on there. It's not scary. Like it's pretty easy like once you start. And I know like for some people, like they don't want to use like the more private options on bisque because I mean, it's just more annoying

to use Amazon gift card versus Zelle, for example. So I'll say like, okay, if you want to use Zelle, like I encourage you to set up an LLC. When you set up an LLC, you can get somebody to be your registered agent.

You can get a PO box or you can do like a UPS address box and keep your name off of public record. And then take that information that you, after you set up your LLC and go to a bank and set up a business bank account and then link that to Zelle.

So that way you can make these trades and your name is not revealed to even your counterparty. Like I just want to give people the best options. And plus, you know, within LLC, you can use it for all kinds of like tax deductions and it's very liberal like legally.

Like there isn't a lot of complications 'cause you're not electing C-corp or S-corp taxation. You're literally just using it as a pass through to acquire these sets. - It's good to give people all these options and sort of ease them in.

If you sort of could choose for them, it's like, you know, I'll give you an example. If someone comes to you and they say, like I'm interested in Bitcoin, from what you've told me, it sounds really interesting.

The idea of having KYC free sets sounds better to me than just, you know, going to a Coinbase or, you know, one of those, what do you suggest I do? And I've got, you know, 100 grand or whatever to do it.

What would you say to them? Would you do a mix or would you say, no, I think you should be mining? - I mean, I definitely try to steer you towards mining just because, you know, people that have this level of capital, what are they usually going towards?

They're going towards real estate, right? Like they're buying these properties and they're renting them out. Mining gives you this effect, but your ROI like break even point is between nine and 12 months.

A lot of people don't realize that. They see this ASIC that's priced at say nine and a half K and they're like, oh shit, like that's so expensive. I don't want it. But really this ASIC like pays for itself within nine to 12 months.

And then after that period, you have several years of profitable mining left. Even like, let's take like the What's Miner M30S machine, for example. Like you can get that from any like hardware seller.

We sell that at Compass and you can get it shipped to your home and keep it in your home or you can have it hosted. But even at the 12 cents per kilowatt hour rate, which is the average rate in the United States, it's not cheap.

You make around like $24.50 per day, $737 per month and $8,800 per year by operating that machine. Why wouldn't you want that? Like you're getting everything that a real estate investor gets, but you're not dealing with annoying tenants.

You're not dealing with excessive maintenance. You're not dealing with the government. I mean, it's in your basement. I would steer you that way. But if you don't have space in your home or your electricity is maybe more than 12 cents per kilowatt hour or you just want to capture like a cheaper rate, like an industrial power rate

of say like four to six cents per kilowatt hour, I would like send you to a good like hosting provider. You know, like Compass, they host the machines for you. They take care of them, they clean them.

You don't have to do anything. You just connect your wallet to the mining pool that you choose and you're receiving these sets. - It's a really nice model. I mean, like I said, buy to let property was my business and I did it for many years.

It did quite well. It was a very scalable business and it was very useful for a long time. But the issues that come along with it are just such a headache and they became more and more of a headache that in the end I just went, no, fuck this.

I'm just not, I just do not want to do this shit anymore. It may be different in the United States, but here it just became such a pain. So I'm used to this sort of way of working and I was very interested in mining at the early stages when I got involved.

And then I got put off because of everyone going, no, don't mine, it's not worth doing. That was the sort of narrative and don't do that. But I didn't listen. I went, nah, fuck that, I'll give it a go.

So I ordered a couple of S17 pros direct from Bitmain. I ordered two, gave one to one of my mates and kept the other one. Could not get my one working. Couldn't get, just whatever I did, it couldn't connect and the customer service was terrible.

They were like giving me useless information that wasn't working. And in the end, I just ended up sending it back. I was in a studio flat that I was renovating at the time. It was so loud, it was driving me mad and it wasn't even doing anything anyway.

So I was just like, oh my God. - Oh my God. - Yeah, I know I'm gutted about it now 'cause this is in like 2018, maybe towards the end of 2018. And so then I shelved it. And then obviously more recently with what Arcano Alchemist has been talking about, what you've been talking about, Ronan Miner

and all these guys who were talking about home mining. It's really made me think again, well, exactly what you said, the ROI on these things is absolutely mind-blowing. And if the shelf life of these A6 is gonna stay a little bit longer than it used to, you know, if we are, if they are gonna be usable for a few years, it's a no brainer.

I think the main issue that, I mean, this show is quite EU and UK centric. The issues that we have here are ridiculous electricity prices and they're only going one way and that's up. So a lot of people realistically are just going, well, I can't, oh, not I can't mine at home, but it doesn't make sense.

Because, you know, here you're probably talking between 18 to 20 P a kilowatt hour, which is what, 30 cents a kilowatt hour. - Oh my God. - Yeah, yeah, it's disgusting. It's absolutely disgusting.

- It's terrible. - It's really bad. And so that's where something like Compass comes in because you're going, well, hold on a minute. I could actually get a cheaper rate of electric and someone else can deal with the noise and the maintenance and all that side of things.

But obviously there are some trade-offs. And so that was one thing I wanted to talk to you about, which is, and I get asked this quite a lot, where people are saying, well, what's the best way that I can go about having someone host one of these machines for me where I have to give the minimal amount of information away

and still make it doable? So do you have any advice for people who are thinking about doing it, but they really want to stay as private as possible? - Yeah, I mean, like, at least the way that we approach it at Compass is we are very minimal.

Like KYC requirements. We don't take IDs, for example. We just require like your basic shipping information, your email, you know, when you connect, like you have to connect to the mining pool.

But you can be very liberal about what you give out. Like I would create, you know, an email that's not connected to my identity. I would use a phone number that's not connected to my identity when I ordered these machines.

Let's say, even if I wanted to like home mind, when I ordered them, I would be using my VPN. I would be sending it to a PO box or a private mailbox or a friend's home. Like you can be very liberal about what information that you give out.

The only time that we collect, I guess, strict information is if you want to sell your ASIC or if you want us to sell it, you know, we have to do that because like marketplace requirements.

But you can always like take over your machine and sell it yourself. Like that's not an issue. It's really a lot, I feel like it is a lot safer than going to like KYC exchange and, you know, taking that selfie and giving out that ID.

Like when you're dealing with a third party, you're always gonna secede like some type of information, unfortunately, but you can be very, I guess liberal about what you give away. - I guess if you're going to something like Compass and you're saying, well, I'm gonna buy one of these machines and like you've said, you use a VPN,

you have a separate email and separate phone number that's not linked to your identity. The one snagging thing that I see, which can be sorted, is well, if you're paying in fear, then obviously they have your banking details, which means there is then a link.

You could of course pay in Bitcoin and make sure that it's gone through Whirlpool and that you're thinking that there's no, that there's as little traceability as possible there. Then that does break the links until potentially there's an issue and then at that point, then maybe you can have a problem.

But it's pretty private and it's definitely better than a lot of the other option. And even something like Bisk, like we mentioned before, the majority of people who go on Bisk will just pay peer to peer with their banking details.

So you're still sharing your banking details with somebody and you don't know who's on the other end of that trade. And so I kind of see it as a trade-off worth taking because actually, if you're looking to dollar cost average, to me, the best way to dollar cost average is to mine.

It just makes more sense. - And you know, you could sign up for hosting like through an LLC, like the same thing that I mentioned with Bisk, like you can get a registered agent, you can have that registered agent use their address when they're registering the LLC for you.

Like when they search, or anyone searches your LLC, your name's not gonna pop up, your address is not gonna pop up and you can pay through that LLC if you wanted to do fiat. Like if you really wanted to do a payment plan 'cause now we have that option.

If you wanna use leverage, get a loan and buy with fiat, I recommend like doing that LLC route. But obviously, you know, paying in Bitcoin is gonna be your most private way. They also too, even if you do pay with Bitcoin, with Compass, they're not gonna scam you.

Like this is a, we have a reputation to keep, you know, a lot of sellers that you find on Telegram and you're paying them in Bitcoin, if you're not careful, you could be a victim of a scam and you don't get a refund, you know what I mean?

Like with a company like this, if they screw you over, I mean, it's easy to sue them, no matter what you've paid with. - Yeah, it's a good point. And people who are dipping their toes in and just first getting involved, you don't wanna be saying to them, go on this Telegram group and speak to this near them

and then send them some Bitcoin, but make sure it's not tied to your identity and make sure it's been through Whirlpool and make sure you've set that up with your Ronan Dojo that you've built yourself.

And there's so many steps to do it privately that it's like, you can't just tell someone to go and do that. It's so much work. It is definitely interesting and I'm really excited to see that more people are dipping their toes in and getting interested in mining and the narrative around it is starting to change.

And that's really exciting to see. - Yeah, you know, I love it because like every time I post about mining, like I get so many DMs and questions, I'm like, well, these DMs should go to like a condo and not me, like I'm trying to like learn more like as I go.

But it's like starting the conversation and there's always that person that comes in that's like, oh, mining is then profitable. You're scamming people. I'm like, you don't have to trust me.

You can go to asicminorvalue.com. You can put in your electricity costs and look at the profitability per each specific ASIC. You know what I mean? Like the data is there. You don't have to just trust what someone says.

And I think too, we're seeing the shift in the narrative because we previously had people like going on, like these, I guess these bigger names talking about, you know, mining is complicated or they know the truth about mining, but they just don't talk about it because look at their incentives, right?

Like who's sponsoring their podcasts? These auto DCA companies, these exchanges, these venture backed companies that don't have an incentive to push mining. They're being paid by these companies that want KYC, that profit from KYC.

So what are they gonna do? They're gonna push people towards KYC. Which I don't think it's a bad thing to mention KYC. I just think that they need to be more honest about the dangers of KYC and show people that there is another way to DCA.

And that's mining. I mean, mining is the cypherpunks DCA. It's the original DCA. And it's really like after you get set up, it just makes the most economic sense. Yeah, it is a really, really interesting model.

I am definitely seeing an uptick in the amount of people reaching out and asking me questions about it, which is exciting. And, you know, like we mentioned before, the fact that a lot of this hash power is going to America and I can only imagine that this is generally not home mining.

I think we'll imagine it's like big outfits that are doing it. So it's much more easy to attack. The more we decentralise this and the more we make it possible for people to home mine, the better for the network, the better for them, better for privacy, it seems like a win all round.

Is there any drawback in your mind with the mining side? Is there anything where you're looking and you're thinking, well, what if chip fabrication changes or suddenly there's some massive leap forward, which makes previous models unworkable, basically.

I know that we are getting close. What is it? I like seven nanometer chips now or something. It's getting close to where it will flatten out. I haven't worded that very well, but I think you probably know what I mean.

Is that right or do you think that we're going to have another leap and that a lot of this stuff is going to have to go on the scrap? Well, I'm personally in the camp that thinks that, you know, the leap that we had from the S9 machine, which was very iconic all the way up to like the S19s and the like 30 and 31 series of what's miners,

like that was huge. And I personally don't think that the next leap forward is going to be that dramatic. I think it's just going to be like these minor changes and a lot of these new machines, they have very specialized parts, which I don't like, I don't know why they're doing that.

I don't know if it's like for a technical or mechanical reason or if it's because these manufacturers want to sell their parts. But like if you notice like the S9s, like the parts are more generic and they're easier to source.

So we might run into like, you know, supply chain problems and like getting parts. We do have semiconductor shortages like still happening, cabling is hard to get in some areas of the world.

I think the biggest risk is not having the hardware, like having to wait forever to get replacements. If your machine was to go offline, you know, every day that your machine is offline, you're losing money.

- Yeah. - So I always tell people I'm like, order spare parts when you order your machines. So that way you can be prepared for that. But with respect to like leaps forward, I don't think we're going to have like a huge change between the next machine and like this one.

- Interesting. What sort of spare parts, you know, what is it that tends to go wrong? Is it like boards or fans or there's the things that are particularly like known faults where you'd say, you probably want to have a few of these.

- Like the cards that go into the machines of the boards, the cabling, just like fans too, like fans fans are really cheap and there's typically not like shortages of them. Yeah. And another thing too that people have to consider is they have to look at the electrical circuits like within their homes.

They have to make sure that their machine is actually can be supported because you have your, you have an electrical circuit. It's not going to all be available for mining. Like you're using other things in your home.

So you need to see or you need to get a professional to see, okay, how much power can I actually allocate towards mining or you're going to fry your home and then you're going to have like a multi-thousand dollar bill to fix it.

- The ROI goes from 12 months to 2000 months. - Yeah. So the biggest risk is not getting certain parts because of like supply chain problems and just not calculating your electrical usage at your home.

But you know what? The what's miner series like they actually have a lot less problems than the newer am miners. - I've heard this. I've heard them more robust. And the power supposedly, I think it was it Rhonda and miner as we can see the other day.

And it was like there's only one power outlet on them where there's two on the S-19s, is that right? - Yeah. I mean, I think they are more efficient. But another thing too is, you know, the creator of the S9 machine, he's responsible for the newest what's miners.

He actually moved from, from Aunt Miner to what's miner. I think within the next five years, what's miner is going to take a lot of market share from the Aunt Miner. The Aunt Miner quality has actually like suffered a little bit.

You know, the people think like, oh, the S9s were so iconic and they're great. They last long. They expect the same quality for the S-19s. The S-19s were made by a totally different engineer.

Not saying they're bad, but you don't see a lot of, you don't see a lot of telegram groups that are like what's miner like repairs and stuff. Like you see a lot more of that with the Aunt miners.

- I look forward to that then, 'cause I've just bought three S-19s. (laughing) I look forward to the problems that are coming. But yeah, no, I have heard that. And I have been told to probably go towards the what's miners and I have got a little project that's potentially happening here in the UK that I'll talk to you offline about.

But we would be going with what's miners for that. It's fascinating. And I would urge anyone who's listening to this to give it some real thought. If you are very much in the camp of just DCA and the only way to do it is go to an exchange, reconsider that and at least do the research.

And if you at the end of the research decide, you know what, it's not for me for whatever reason, that's fine, but definitely look into it because it does seem to be the best option. It also does something for the network even on a very small scale.

- Yeah, I mean, I personally think like, okay, it's scary to look at these new machines and see that they're upwards of $8,000. So I always tell people like try to find an S-9, you can find one in very good or excellent condition for between $450 and $500, just buy one of those.

And that's like a good way to experiment with home mining. Like try to set it up, you know, call your electrician, have them give you that like 220 volt like setup, you know, plug it in, install the brains, mining software, connect your IP address, see if like how it sounds, like see how much heat it produces.

Like, I think that's a really good machine to experiment with. That's the one I personally experimented with in my home. And if it doesn't work out for you, you can just sell it. Like it is an asset and it is in demand.

Like people are always looking for four machines. You know, when Bitcoin price is up, right? Like people want these machines. The Bitcoin price is directly correlated to the price of these ASICs because these ASICs print the underlying asset, which is Bitcoin.

So you're always gonna have a market. There's a Bitcoin market, there's an ASIC market. - Very true. I could talk to you about mining all day and we might have to do a specific show on it at some point, but I had a couple of other things that we talked about in the background that I really wanted to touch on.

And one of those is the Oslo Freedom Forum. Can you tell me a bit about what that was like? I know you were involved. Maybe you could film me on what that experience was like. - So unfortunately I got COVID five days before I was supposed to fly out to Miami.

- Oh no, I didn't know that. I didn't know that meant you couldn't do it. - Yeah, because they require a test to like go in. And I posted about it because of course, after I got it, like there were people saying like, "Oh, you should have got vaccinated."

And like instead of like better, like I got the worst reactions from the normysphere. - Fucks sake. Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. I didn't know. I knew you had COVID, obviously you'd said that.

I knew you weren't well, but I was under the impression that you still got to go. - I mean, I wish. It was just, it was just such bad timing. And the weekend before I was at my friend's house and she tested positive.

And then I'm like, "Oh, well, I feel fine." Three days later, I start feeling like shit. And then I go get a test and then I have it too. - What a shame. Can you talk to me about what you were gonna discuss there?

What was gonna happen? Like what was your involvement? - So I was gonna talk about like how to spend Bitcoin privately, like within like third world countries or governments, or countries with governments that are hostile and like countries that have like weaker banking systems.

So I'm still working on a project. I was given a grant for it by the HRF. And it's just like, it's a research like project where I'm supposed to look for different types of technologies that can be used in these like environments, like in a third world to transact and use Bitcoin,

specifically countries with like very bad internet infrastructure and like telecommunications networks. So like how to take Bitcoin offline. And it's an open source project. So anyone can contribute to it.

I actually kind of thought about this while I was in Lebanon, my home country this past summer, where I was trying to onboard people onto Bitcoin. And I was testing like the Go 10s over there to do these transactions.

And I used the TX 10s suite to do that. It's pretty interesting. Like you can send the transaction and then it will broadcast like when your phone like connects to the internet. So, you know, let's say you have an outage, you can still send the transaction and then it will go through like when it comes back.

Like the internet comes back online. But the biggest issue is finding a way to kind of keep these transactions like in the queue to be broadcast, like if the internet were to go out for more than a day, like more than two days for a week.

So that's kind of what we're looking at right now. And I'm thinking like this could be relevant to the first world too, like not just the third world countries because you have this talk of like the cyber pandemic and you were already seeing it, right?

Like websites are going down, communications apps are going down. Like what's going to come next? I think they're going to try to like shut the internet. So, you know, this tech and this research can be applied anywhere in the world.

- Yeah, it's so important that we think ahead in terms of preparing and not just sitting and stacking sets, but actually thinking, well, okay, there's so much more to this than just having sound money.

You have to have the networks of people, the networks where you can actually send these payments. You need to have a way to get food. You need to have a way to have good education. You need to have, there's so much shit that's going to be thrown at us over the next five years that these are the things that really need to be talked about.

And, you know, mesh networks and satellites and all these sort of things so we can be resilient are so key. Is that kind of what you would be doing with HRF going forward then, is just like to reach out to people and explain and make sure that they can actually transact even if the internet does go down?

- Yeah, I mean, that's the idea. And the idea is to take the results found like from this research and actually deploy it like in a country. We're going to find like a place to test it. And then hopefully expand to like other countries by the necessary technology.

Find people in these regions that are interested in educating locals because, you know, we can't be there all the time. To just, you know, build out these networks because that's what we need.

Like if you want to be sovereign, it's not just about financial sovereignty. It's sovereignty in all spheres. It's sovereignty in food sovereignty. It's sovereignty in communications and privacy.

So just like making that known. And I think that third world is more advanced. Like I hate calling it third world because they're more advanced in like a lot of ways than we are here, like in the US or the UK or other Western nations.

'Cause they're already using Bitcoin as intended. Like they are transacting. They're using P2P markets. There's no KYC. They're mining now. Like South America. There's a stream that we did a Compass livestream with a Dr. Miner.

That's his handle on Twitter and he's talking about how, you know, these bar owners, restaurant owners, shop owners, like normal people have these miners like, you know, place in their homes or in their stores and they're just stacking sets.

They connect it to the finance pool wallet and the finance pool wallet allows them to spend these sets. They stack that stores. Like they're already using Bitcoin, you know what I mean? - Necessity.

- And I mean, necessity drives innovation and you know, it pushes people to do something. We haven't seen real hostility in the West yet. I mean, I guess it may be minus Australia, but yeah, it's definitely coming.

- I can feel it in my bones. It is coming. The UK is a very weird place right now. It's, it makes me very, very uneasy when I speak to most people because they're just so blissfully ignorant about what's coming and the timing is just perfect.

It's just like step by step. Most of the people that I'm speaking to are a few steps ahead of the curve and they make a prediction. They say, well, you know, within the six next six months, this, this and this are going to happen.

And then it happens. And then they make another prediction. This, this and this is going to happen. And then it happens. And every time when you try and share with normal people and say, look, I'm worried that these things are going to happen.

They go, you crazy bastard, shut up. You're a conspiracy theorist. Don't be so weird. What are you smoking? You know, whatever they want to attack you with. And then six months later, you go, remember I told you that all these things were going to happen and you called me a lunatic.

And now they've happened. What's your thoughts? And they're like, oh, well, you didn't exactly say that. You said, you know, they just cannot accept it. And so it seems that whatever warnings we give, people are just going to walk into this.

And yeah, I don't know how you wake them up. But I've kind of almost come to the conclusion that they have to feel real pain. And that the majority of people in the West are so comfy. In relative terms, they're so comfy that they're just, they don't get it.

Whereas people who are struggling, they do get it because it's the necessity. And they're like, OK, well, I have to do this. And so they wake up and I'm almost getting to the point now. It sounds really sadistic.

But I'm like, I kind of want them to feel pain. I kind of feel like you lazy, useless bastards. You need to feel some pain and wake the fuck up and toughen up. And then you're going to see things.

And maybe when they see things, there's going to be-- well, my hope is that there's going to be like an inner rage where they feel, ah, someone put wool over my eyes and I've been tricked and I'm angry and now I'm going to go on the attack and maybe then there's some change.

But I think, unless people get angry, they're just going to keep walking into this, unfortunately. I mean, look, I agree with you. People have to feel pain for a change. But I mean, I personally think there's no way that the majority of people are going to ever wake up.

They're just going to fall in line and do whatever these, I guess, lawmakers and policy makers say-- Demons. Look at history, right? Even during the American Revolution, the majority of, I guess, the colonists, they didn't side with the rebels.

They sided with the British. During the Nazi era, most people sided with Nazis. The majority will always side with the wrong. You just need a strong enough and big enough minority to make change.

Most people are not going to do shit. Most people are going to be very useless, and they're just going to-- I guess they're just extras in a movie. You know what I mean? Like, they're not going to do anything.

So for the ones that are the ones who are standing up, they are noticing that things are going a certain way and they want change. Do you have any tips, like, if anyone's listening now, hardware-wise, software-wise, where there are things that you've tested and trialed, and you particularly like, where you'd say,

like, this is your sort of sovereign stack, if you like, where you can break away from the legacy system and run this in parallel and be ready. What would be your advice for those people?

I mean, honestly, the stack is pretty simple, right? Like, you want to run a node, and you want to run a node that is privacy-focused. One that you can actually transact with. You don't want it to have, like, anything too fancy.

You don't really need, like, this crazy, like, lightning features and all that. You want a coin join? You want to run world-able? It's a running dojo, then. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] The only thing that, like, works well, honestly.

Like, I've tried, like, all these other node products. I used to run my node. I tried Umbral. I don't want anything that breaks. You know what I mean? Like, it needs to be-- it needs to be reliable.

It needs to have good uptime. Like, I need to be able to use it with this. I want to make trades. I need to have it, you know, paired with world pools. So it's, like, running in the background.

The point is, like, you want to be ready to transact. You don't want to, like, OK, you have these sets. Like, OK, I got them from KYC Exchange. I can be tracked. Like, chain analysis can track me.

The feds can track me. At that point, it's useless, right? Like, you want to be able to use it. And then you want, like, some good, like, cold storage solution. My-- I guess my new favorite is the foundation devices passport.

Do you want to know a secret, Lily? Well-- It's not even a secret, actually, because when this show airs, I'm going to be mentioning it. They're my new sponsors. No way. Yeah. First pod to be sponsored by them.

I've been chatting to Zach and Q&A in the background. And I've just been hammering them for months. Like, I love the passport. I want to shill it to everyone. Please sponsor me. It's so aligned with this pod.

So, yes, as of literally this pod coming out, they are my new show sponsors. And I fucking love them. Not because they're sponsoring me, because I approach them not the other way around. But, yeah, what an amazing hardware wallet that is.

Well, congratulations. That's awesome. I mean, I can't think of a more fitting sponsor, and they chose the right podcast. So it's a win-win for both parties. Yeah, I'm very hyped. So basically, what you're saying is node, you would say Ronan Dojo.

And then, for a hardware wallet, you'd say passport. And then, what would you use to link-- what would you use as an interface, ideally, to work with these two? So I use the Sparrow desktop wallet.

And then, for my spends, I use the Samurai wallet. I mean, everything is fast. Like, I want it to be transparent. I want software that is going to remain relevant in the future. Like, I don't want to use anything that's a close source, or fake-foss, because that's, you know, the space is only going to get more competitive.

You don't want to trust devs who want to innovate, who aren't scared to compete, you know, with your-- this stuff is, like, connect. This is the only thing connecting you, like-- connecting your Bitcoin to, like, the physical, I guess, world, is the tech that you choose.

You need it to be, like, strong tech. Yeah, I agree with that. One question I have with you on the Ronan Dojo is, what hardware are you using? Are you using a Raspberry Pi, or are you using a Rock Pro?

So I'm actually using the Rock Pro stack. OK. It is so much-- I feel like once you switch, because I had a Raspberry Pi for, like, a previous node that I had, it's just so much better. The uptime is great.

And I find it to be a very powerful machine. Like, even if you're choosing, like, the-- you're choosing the 4 gigabyte Rock Pro, it just-- it performs better than the 8 gig Raspberry. Like, it's just built, like, so nicely.

I absolutely love the team at Ronan. And everything that they're doing, I fucking love it. But I have to say, with a Raspberry, I had major issues. Probably part of it is just me being an idiot and making mistakes.

But honestly, I've ordered a Rock Pro now. It's coming to me. It's going to be set up in the next few days. And I'm really excited for it, because I kept saying to, like, Brother Rabbit and everyone else.

I was like, you know, I keep having these problems. What do I do? They're like, change your hardware. This is going to sort the problem. Because I think I had spent-- I'm not exaggerating.

I think probably at least 100 hours rebuilding, fixing, reflashing Ronan Dojo's. I've rebuilt them at least 10 times. Yeah, at least 10 times. I mean, I've moved a few times in between there and set it up, you know, a new address and all that kind of stuff.

So maybe that has caused issues. But if I'm honest, it was the least reliable bit of hardware I've ever had. And I only persisted, because I like the team so much. I love the way they're focusing things.

But my hope is that this rock pro fixes it. From everyone that I've spoken to who runs a rock pro, basically says this thing is absolutely solid. So that would be my bit of advice for anyone listening is don't try and run it on a Raspberry.

Just go straight for the rock pro. Yeah, I mean, I'll admit. Like, I tried to run it on, like, the old-- Take five? All right, let's do this. So we got cut off again. De-googled phones we were talking about.

What's your thoughts? Why are they interesting? What are your favorite options for them? You a graphene fan, or a CalX fan? Or what would you advise for people? So I guess, like, the way that I manage, like, my phones is very interesting.

I don't have just one phone. I use the graphene OS on a separate pixel to, like, manage all the Bitcoin-related stuff. So, like, Samurai, the whirlpooling. Like, I keep it on that phone. I keep, like, a lightning wallet on that phone.

And then when it comes to, like, a daily driver, like, with all my data, like, I run another phone, I have, like, CalX on it. It's just easier to use. It's more intuitive. It comes, like, with F-Droid installed.

And, like, for people who don't know, F-Droid is a free and open-source app store, where you can download, like, different apps. And, like, you can update those apps, like, through the-- I guess the creator's, like, repos.

So you don't have to worry if the, like, update is malicious or not. Like, it's verified by, you know, the developer and the repo. I think that's the easiest option. Like, you get everything, like, all the benefits of, like, the Google services, like, without the trackers installed.

You can use Tor on it. You can use Orbot. You can download your VPN and, like, keep it running. It's just a better-- I feel like a better option, like, where you want to keep your data. Like, do all your browsing on there.

And then I still have an iPhone. Like, I use it for social media. I've been very open about this. It's another thing people criticize me about, like, why do you still have iPhone? But the reality is the cameras on these pixels suck.

And I need to take pictures. So I use my iPhone for-- Even with Calix on a Pixel 5, is it still shitty? Well, I don't have a 4A, so I haven't tested the 5 yet. OK. But it's just not the same.

Like, you don't get, like, the same apps, like, the same camera apps. Like, it's not easy to edit on them. Like, you know how Apple has, like, the adjust lighting, the saturation, like, all that, like, within the Photos app?

Yeah. That's the only thing that's tying me to iPhone. So I just use it for, like, pictures and tweeting and social media. And it's like the phone that I have, like, my normie number on, like, I guess, like, my Doc's number.

And then I keep, like, a separate number on my Calix phone that I use to sign up for, like, Signal and, like, Telegram and these other services. I definitely think people should do that. They shouldn't be signing up for these, you know, encrypted services with their actual phone number, because that is a vulnerability point.

Like, you want to use, like, a burner number for that. There's an app. It's called Trima. It doesn't require an email. It doesn't require a phone number. And it's more secure than Telegram or Signal.

So I encourage people to try, like, different options. But everybody should have a privacy phone. I mean, even if they want to keep their Bitcoin stuff, like, on the same phone as, like, their data, I think that's OK.

It just needs to be, like, a good open source, like, privacy-focused operating system. You don't want your Bitcoin stuff on iPhone. I agree. I have three Pixel 3A's. And I've been trying to-- and all of them run graphene.

But I've been trying, weirdly, to buy a Pixel 5A, which is really high-time preference off me. But I was just, like, fucking, I really want one. And so I spoke to Q&A about it. And he was like, what do you want to do?

Do you know what our goss is? You probably don't, because you're from America. It's like the shittest place you can go to buy anything. It'd be like a target, but worse. But you can buy gift cards there.

And so Q&A was like, what do you want to do? Go there, mask up, COVID safe, with cash, and go and buy these gift cards from different shops. And then you go in and you buy the phone. And then there's no link to the IMEI number to your identity.

And I was like, perfect. I'll do that. So I went around for a few days. And I spent, like, 600 quid on these gift cards. That was about 2 and 1/2 months ago. You cannot buy a Pixel 5A or a Pixel 4 anywhere at any Argos.

And they have 400-ish shops in the country at any location. You can't go and pick one up. You can't even have it sent to a P.O. box. So all I've now got is just a shitload of vouchers. And all I could do is go and buy a toaster or something.

I literally can't buy the phone that I want. It's ridiculous. So-- I just use cash. Yeah, you can't even buy one. You can't get the stock. There's none. You know, I think there was a supply crunch after the memo came out that Apple was going to start surveilling people's photos.

Because that news dropped at the same month that the 5A came out. I did. I remember listening to-- was it Seth for privacy, as he called? And he was on with Matt and talking about this sort of stuff and explaining it.

And I think that was around the time that actually I tried to buy one. So that would probably make sense. Yeah, I mean, I always tell people, you should stock up on hardware now. I don't know how long it's going to be before they say, oh, you can't buy a phone with cash, or you can't buy a SIM card with cash.

We don't know. We just have to be prepared for that when they do come out with laws. So definitely all hardware stuff, you should have it now. I mean, even like, raspies are becoming hard to find.

Yeah, I heard that today. Someone reached out to me and said that Fullmo couldn't get enough raspies. And I said, well, I've got a load in stock just lurking around the house if they wanted them.

But I actually think that they needed more. I had like four or five, but I think they needed a lot more than that. So yeah, that's good advice. Just stock up on all this sort of stuff, because it's definitely not going to get easier.

I mean, everything, right? Even hardware wallets and self custody. There's been so much talk about legislating against that. And what's going to stop them from going after these manufacturers?

Yeah, I'm sure at some point they will. I suppose that's where something like seed signer then comes in, where it's like, well, OK, you can make it from generic parts. And there's other options like that.

I mean, basically whatever rules and regulations they put in place, life will find a way, as they say in Jurassic Park, we will find a way around it. So in the long run, it is pointless. But yeah, they're going to try it all.

They have to because their power depends on it. But look, Lily, we've had a few issues, but I've been rambling on for a while. We definitely need to speak again. We've got so much to talk about.

There's stuff with the de-googled phones. We can go into a little bit more detail, maybe, or on another one. But one thing I really wanted to just briefly touch on, and I think probably would be best to discuss on a Mechdel, a later stage.

But you sent me an article about beef, and about supply chains, and about having proper nutrition, and all this sort of stuff, which is right up my street. I've been talking to Untapped Growth a lot about it, and Nunya, and a few others.

Can you give me a synopsis on what it is you're looking into? Yeah, sure. So basically, we are Me and the Texas Slim on Twitter. He's @modernteaman. Started this initiative to start building out our own food supply chains, and this is going to start within the community.

So Texas Slim started this in Texas, obviously. And the idea is we're being attacked not just financially, but also medically and nutritionally. Recently, the FDA came out with a law. It's called the GROSS rule.

So it's generally recognized as safe ruling. And this basically allows companies to hide chemicals and other substances in our food products without telling us. Excellent. And at the same time, they're manufacturing shortages.

Like, have you seen the price of beef going up? And these articles coming out saying, oh, we're going to have a beef shortage. We're going to have food shortages. Because what they're doing is they're slaughtering cattle.

They're digging up crops and they're like dumping milk to fabricate these shortages. And I don't really know, like, legally, what laws they're using to justify it. But the point is it is happening.

I mean, our government is run by the corporations. It's not run by people. It hasn't been since Citizens United was passed. So basically, this initiative is-- we're trying to reach out to farmers, ranchers, food processors, and growers.

And we're trying to educate them on how to use Bitcoin and how to accept Bitcoin for their services. We want to make sure that they understand how to use Bitcoin privately, what tools they need to use, what hardware wallets they need to have, how to transact on mobile.

So we're going to create this sovereign toolkit for them. And it's going to walk them through how to do everything, how to participate in a circular economy. We want to make it very easy to follow and relatable.

And then I also want to build in a mining component to this. Because you do know that A6 produce a lot of heat. And one of the ways that you can repurpose this heat is by heating a greenhouse.

So what I want to do is I'm trying to-- I just ordered all these seeds to test this out. I want to make this makeshift mini greenhouse. I want to just build different prototypes, see what works, and then hopefully open source this design so other people can use it within their homes.

They're supporting the network through mining. They're making money through mining. They're being their own bank. They're growing their own food. And now we're connecting these farmers and ranchers to people who want proper nutrition.

They want to control the food supply. Because when you control the food supply, you control the people's minds and bodies. If you have an unhealthy mind and an unhealthy body, the money you have is useless.

It doesn't matter how much Bitcoin you have. Because everything starts with, I guess, the individual person. Maybe that's why we have so many unstable people on Twitter. Because they're so full of soy.

Yes, it's very true. I mean, if you put in a load of shit into your body, you're going to get a load of shit out, basically. And you have to respect your body. You have to respect what you put in it.

And there is no point in having a load of money. There's no point in having a load of sats. If you're unhealthy and you're going to die, or you can't think straight, and you can't think about the future.

There is so much more to this. And that's why I've started the Mechdel series. It's why Untapped is doing what he's doing. And Ben Gunn is doing what he's doing. And we're building these pleb networks.

And it's perfectly aligned. The things you're just telling me about there just make so much sense. So we'll do a full pod on that. We'll get you guys on the Mechdel show. And I'd love to dig a little bit deeper onto it.

But so that we break this up a little bit, because I think we've been going for a while now. I just want to say, it's been an absolute pleasure. I really respect what you're doing. Don't let the bastards get you down if people are attacking you.

Usually people who do that sort of thing are weak and soft. And they have their own issues. And that's why they're attacking rather than fixing themselves. And I think you're an amazing asset to the Bitcoin space.

And I have a lot of respect for what you're doing. Well, thank you for having me on. I appreciate everything that you're doing for this space. And really, my goal is just to try to educate people.

And I guess try and show them that sovereignty is not just financial. That's just a part of it. We get so wrapped up in the financial. Because that's what we see every day. We're going into stores and we're seeing this inflation.

But it's just much more than that. And I think that there's a lot of people who understand that. There's a lot of red-pilled Bitcoiners who want real sovereignty. So I would love to get on with Texas Slim and discuss this in more detail.

Obviously, he's the food expert. I'm just supporting this project through knowledge of Bitcoin privacy and transacting with mining, too. I'm not a food expert. So I'm learning a lot through this process.

Well, I look forward to that one. But yeah, thanks again. And I look forward to arranging something. I'll obviously speak to your fair and get something booked in. But anyone listening, look out for that one.

Yeah, thanks again. Been great speaking to you. You too, Max. Talk soon.