EP06 pt. I Bitcoin podcast with Daniel Prince

Welcome back to the bit by bit podcast. In today's episode, I'm joined by Daniel Prince, the author of Choose Life. I really enjoyed this one. I've cut it into two parts because we had a very long conversation about a variety of different topics. I hope you enjoy.

Right, so we should be recording now. Okay. I should just... And feel free to ask absolutely anything. There's no topic we can't discuss. Okay, there. Were you an annoying Bitcoin mate down the path? Yeah. Well, yeah, I was. It was more...

I mean, I keep myself to myself, mainly, so I have a small circle of friends. But the ones that I was seeing, I could film myself thinking, "I'm reading their body language." Let's switch stuff. They have no interest in what you're talking about. They don't understand

what you're talking about, and they're just looking to change the subject. And then for the first six months to a year, I was like, "Well, I'll ignore that because I care deeply about these people, and I genuinely believe if they don't make a change, they're going

to suffer." And then about another six months went, and I just thought, "No, you're going to... You just have to stop. You have to do your own thing." And if they're interested, and if things start going bad, at least they can turn to you and say, "All right, what do

I do?" So yeah, that was part of it. I thought, "I want to talk to people. I want to meet other people who are involved in this because otherwise sort of feel a bit like everyone's talking about Kardashians or just like politics about Brexit." And I'm like, "If only you knew.

Only you could understand this. You would see past all this nonsense and you were wasting your time." Do you feel lonely sometimes? Yeah, it's weird, right? Yeah, it is weird. It's really weird. Because you're still around all of the people that you've grown up with

possibly and understand deeply, and the people that you want to understand more than anyone else in the world are your friends and your family. And you can see you can unlock the future for them because, you know, this is the rabbit hole I've been in for five years.

And, you know, just having a conversation with my parents about it this weekend. And I can see the glaze over. Yeah. And there's no one I want more to help understand. But then they don't. And then like you say, "So yeah, it's a bit of a lonely existence being

Bitcoin." It is down the park. I think that's the reason it was like, "Well, you have to make changes. It's going to be horrible just to be lonely for the next five years or however long it takes for this to go a little bit more mainstream." And then it's not actually

exciting. It's exciting now when it is on the fringe weird sort of, it's such a small community. And I thought, "Well, I sort of lurked on Twitter for a while in the background. I went through a long stage of being really, really concerned about what if everyone knows

that I have it? What if everyone? Because, you know, Opsec and all of this kind of stuff." And then I just thought, "Well, if I'm upset about some of the things that are going on in the world and I think that that is a solution, it's not going to fix everything. But yeah,

there's a lot that's can fix. We should really speak out. And if we're scared of our governments and scared to actually say, "Well, we own Bitcoin, why?" Like, "What are we doing? We're just going, we want a better money. We're so bad about that." But there's this fear

in the back of your head and it's like, "Oh, you can't say that. Oh, no, I just got to stage this a while." Okay. Just going to say what I want and then hopefully I find some interesting people who think the same and that's it.

I've had the same thought process here. It's like, you know, should we be even forecasting on Twitter, for example, or anywhere? Like, you know how a lot of the mainstream crypto guys, Bitcoin guys are them. But I'm getting that word out of my vocabulary to be honest.

Yeah, it's Bitcoin. Yeah, not crypto. Yeah. And after their name, they put the keys and they thought these little symbols and January 3rd, 2009. Right, exactly. I'm like, "That would be so easy for somebody just to do like an algorithm, like check who's got that symbol?" Yeah. They all own Bitcoin and bang, they're on a spread

sheet somewhere. Oh, yeah. I'm sure we are. Right. We will be. So should we be scared of that or not? And to your point, there's nothing illegal going on, so... Yeah. And even if it is illegal, what's illegal and what's immoral is completely different, it was illegal for

women to vote. It's illegal for blacks and whites to use the same bathroom. You look at that today and you go, "That's disgusting." Yep. But it was the law. And there's lots of things that are the law that are wrong. And like, if no one stood up then, it wouldn't

have changed. And if we don't stand up now, it's the same thing. So I've kind of come to the piece with it that it's like, "Okay, you probably, at some stage, you're going to get hammered. But if you do, at least you're doing it for a good cause, or at least I believe

I'm doing it for a good cause, we could all be complete lunatics. We could all be wrong. We could all be wrong. I mean, we just could be, but I can't see how we are. But yeah, that was why." And it was trying to find a niche within the industry. I was like, "This

is the industry I want to work in. There's no question. Definitely. Everyone who's involved in Bitcoin or most people don't spend money." I've noticed that. Frugal. Even people with a lot of money just don't spend it. They're more long-term thinkers. So selling art to

them, probably not the right market. I didn't want to go into a salesy role or into some crypto-y fundy nonsense. It has to be something I believe in. And I was struggling with anxiety quite badly or have done for a long time. And I thought, "Well, this is again, it pushes

me out to have to meet people, to have to just have to do the things that I'm uncomfortable with." So that was why. That was why. It's been good so far. I've enjoyed it so far. How do you feel as though, since you've been investing in Bitcoin, which is like millions

of you and you, we're just having a conversation. How has it changed your time preference as well. So I've always had this mindset, which is why I think I got it. I started saving every single penny that I ever earned and started businesses from nine. So I've always

had that. I never buy new clothes. I never buy flash things. I never spend money on going out on a night out of working. And I just worked for years and years and years and years and saved until I could buy a property and then expanded. I've always thought that way.

So that part came naturally. It's made me even more like that, though, for sure. It bends your mind because you have to start converting everything into how many sats is that? Even parking today. It's very difficult to convert that. Yeah, very, very difficult. Have you

found the same with yourself? Yeah. The biggest switch for me was being a father of four and having left a career in 2014. That was in the city, you were working in the city. I was working in Singapore. I was working in Singapore for 15 years. That's for a built my career.

In foreign exchange, would you believe? I knew. Remember the whole money? Yeah. Yeah. Dollars, yen, all those funny things. I was actually sitting at my desk. I remember the day, Bitcoin started and everybody was sitting there like, what the hell is that? Oh, it's

going to be this new digital currency. Yeah. Yeah. Who cares about that? That's a scam. That's going to die. It's dollars, it's euros, it's yen. Back to work we go, guys. There's 10, 11 hours a day, chained to it, putting through orders for the UBSs and the HSBCs and

the Barclays and the Garmins of this world. That was my existence in total, about 17 or 18 years, 15 years of which in Singapore. But I reached the brick wall. I read, actually, I'm going to have the shield to embarrass. Go for it. Show all you want. We're all about

a shield. I don't know. Have you ever read the four hour work week? You know, I haven't. But I have been told by two people that I really respect. You have to read that. Right. So it is on my list of things. I'm going through at the moment. Mine has seemed to

let books. And then once I've finished those, it will be that. Yeah. Yeah. So a friend of mine, I had had lunch with him. We caught up on the lunch. And I always, we would just probably put in the world to write. And I was just saying things to him like, hey, I can't

go back there. Like, I just don't. I literally did not want to leave that lunch table and have it all back to the office. And he said, get the four hour work week. That's in Paris. I'm like, really, like a self help book? Like, what the hell? Honestly. And I don't know

what I did it. I got back to the desk. I found the nearest bookshop. I called him. I reserved the copy. I went down and bought it. I started reading it on the train on the way home. And that was it. Like, I was addicted to that book. I read it like four or five times in as many

of us. Oh, really? And so I started reading it in November 2013. And by March 2014, quit my career, taking the kids out of school and sold all of our stuff. We'd given notes to our landlord. And we were gone. Like, it was that quick. It took a little time, obviously

for my wife to understand I was like, definitely, this is what I want to do. And I wanted to start putting that book, make me start realizing, you know, time is the ultimate currency. Yeah.

Maps. Yeah, I completely agree. And as a father of four, you know, my kids, my oldest one at the time was eight and six. And we had two twins, three years old. This has been a blur. This last eight years. And I spent most of that blur chained to a desk doing stuff I

don't particularly like for people, you know, that were very uncompromising and unapologetic and very fast paced stressful atmosphere, which is great when you're a young man. Yeah, family life's not that conducive. So we left and we started to travel. And so my, my mindset

started changing then. But huge anxieties over the social construct and the judgment around like, you know, you've been a irresponsible parent. Yeah. So taking your kids out of formal education is a whole rabbit hole. We can go down then. I listened to your podcast. You've

done, what was it, the superhero? Yeah. And I was listening to that. And again, completely agree. I think the school system is so outdated. It's embarrassing. I mean, I hated it. I can't even imagine what kids today are thinking. They must just sit there. What is this? What

is the point? What is the point? And by the sounds of it, your kids are learning. They're wanting to learn, which that's how you learn. The biggest takeaway I got from the whole experience having them out of school for almost three years was that school is excellent. Very,

very good. Almost a total, almost 100% pass rate on killing the love of learning kids. Yeah. That's all it's good for. Crushing their soul and dreams. Yeah. Absolutely. Like you leave school with zero love of learning. Yeah. And you kind of think to yourself, well, thank

God, that's over. I don't have to learn anything. Yeah. And then you get to the workplace and then you find you just learn on the job. And you're actually really good at some stuff, which you've been told your whole school and career that you were probably really bad at. And it's like,

it's this crushing system. It really is. Yeah, I agree. But yeah, there is that perceived. Did you get a pushback when you were talking to family and friends about it? Yeah. It was like, like 85% would be like, you're crazy. Right. What are you doing? It was obviously,

and that comes from a place of concern. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. They're not trying to be nasty. And they just they genuinely believe what they've been told. Yeah. Genuinely concerned that you're not doing the best thing for your kids and for your family. And for your career, right?

People will be saying, but you spent like 17 years building this career. Why walk away now? You know, what's the next level? Yeah. I obviously don't care. I just don't want to be there anymore.

I want to be with my family. But it was very, yeah, 75, 85% were like, don't do it. You're mad. A lot of judgment, especially around, even when we were traveling around with the kids, you'd meet people on your travels and it'd be like, you're doing what?

Like, why aren't they in school? Well, we kind of consider this as school. You know, they're out and meeting people, different cultures, different languages, different sites, sounds, smells, experiences. And with us the whole time, they're learning what one person

said to me recently, she homeschooled world school, all of her kids, all four of her kids, three of which have sailed through university. Never went to a school ever, walked into university, signed up on the day, I used to all of their exams in the field that they wanted to do,

and then we'll go on and chase a career in that particular park because they know what they want. They have this love of learning, they can just smash it. She said to me, you know, once we switch down mindset from, we're raising adults, not kids, everything changed for them. And I was like, wow,

yeah, that's crazy. Kids are so smart. They're so, so smart. And they think about things in a completely different way to us because they haven't got all these boundaries that have been all these walls that are put up. So they sometimes you talk to a kid and they'll just come up with

something you think. Good point. Why didn't I figure that? Yep. Whereas most people are like, well, that's not, that's not how it's done. This is what we do. And this is how we do it. And that is the social order of things because that's what we brought up. So back to the mindset question,

how did I, when I started investing in Bitcoin, I started following it. I don't know if you've ever watched or signed up Real Vision, have you ever, yeah, Ralph Paul, yeah, Ralph Paul and Grant Williams. Yeah. Grant Williams lived in Singapore and Grant and I got to know each other as he was

launching Real Vision with Ralph. And I remember sitting down with him and I'd watched like, they've been going for like three, four, six months, I can't remember. And everything was bearish, all about stocks and share. And Grant, you know, we can't find anybody bullish about this. And it's

like, we don't even ask like leading questions. We just, and everybody has the same, the same opinion. And I said, and what about Bitcoin? He's like, wait a couple of weeks, we're dropping some Bitcoin videos. All right. And they would have real early ones. It could have even been like

Toyota Mista, that was one of the early people on there. And then they start interviewing. So it's really good actually. Yeah, really good. Incorrect. And for a young man as well, what is this?

Oh, God, God, he still looks 15. Yeah, he's two of you. Listen, you know, he knows his stuff like it's very impressive. Yeah. And then they have Trace Mayer on as well. Yeah. Yeah. And I started watching these videos and these interviews and I started looking into it. And I didn't even

look at like the mining or anything like that. And so I started just like buying somebody to see where this goes. It just seemed like a great hedge against the financial system that we haven't at the moment. And it's only in the last about six months, I'd say, so a good five years into this

journey that the whole low time preference company is clicking. And my anxiety over raising my family and my anxiety over, do I have enough money to see us out like via, I'm still in via kind of mentality. We have to be really at the moment. My anxiety just started going down because I had

this store of value, which I completely understand now. And it's like this could actually, this is a high percentage chance that my family is going to be set now and okay. And my kids are going to be able to work on stuff that they truly love and truly interested in rather than race themselves

into the city and take the first job that comes along and get trapped and paint it into a corner 20 years down. And that's how my mindset and that's what Bitcoin has done to me. And that's such a nicer outlook when you're thinking about what your children are going to do.

Them doing something they're passionate about rather than that rat race. Because we all know, like everyone who's done it knows it just kills you. Yes. When I left my last job, I hated it. I just hate, I just hated, I just come home, put my music on and I paint all night just to not think I'd

turn my phone off. I didn't want to talk to anyone. I didn't trust anyone. I thought everyone was just an asshole. Yes. And I just thought, what is the point in this? How many more years have I got on this planet? What am I doing? And then once you step away from that and you start doing things

where there's passion involved and you realize, I don't know, people are right. Obviously there are people who are just terrible, but most people are right. They're just miserable because they're doing something they hate and they don't even believe in most of the time. And just surviving,

right? Yeah. There's no way they can say it. No. You just can't. You can't. And even if they have the money to do it, then what is their stocks all-time high? Like property unachievable for most people, especially younger people. Like, you know, all the sort of options that they're told by their

parents and their grandparents, oh, buy that out, buy bonds. Great. Yeah. Yeah. What a brilliant investment that's going to be. Yeah. The outlook for, I think, a lot of certainly like my generation were just like, what are we doing? We might as well just go in and earn as much money as we can,

and then just go and enjoy the money. Just go and spend it going on nice holidays and going, but then you never get off that hamster wheel. Nope. You just work until you're 75, 80, if you ever retire. And then that's it. And then might have paid a house off along the way.

Maybe. And then what? And then what? Because you can't, you're not mobile. You can't go on the holidays that you dreamed of and do the things that you dreamed of. You've got, might have a bit of savings, but what's the point? I think it's going to be a trend that more people are just going to,

I think, like you said, for our work, we've did it for you. Yeah. Art somehow did it for me, just going, there's more to life. I do what I enjoy. And I think now with the internet, more people are going to listen to podcasts, more people are going to read these sort of books.

Good. I haven't had obviously had a chance to read your book, but you've written it. Sorry. Certainly. I listen to the podcast, but. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. Sorry. I should have asked you that before. Wow. So choose life, the tools, tricks and hacks, the long term family travelers,

world schoolers and digital nomads. I like the digital nomads, but lovely. I should just sign it inside for you. Oh, I've started putting the, thank you very much. At the bottom. Very nice. Thank you very much for that. I really appreciate it. No, no worries.

It's a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me on. It's, um, I, you know, finding each other on Twitter is, um, what a great place that, that, most people like complain about it. Oh, it's full of trolls and haters. It's like, I want you to curate your timeline. Just curate that list of people

and go to the list instead of the timeline. You find amazing people on there. Yeah. You really do. And you and I like a couple of direct messages and like, yeah, let's get together. That's it.

That's it. Yeah. It is so powerful. Have you been on it for a while? Or are you? Yeah. I sent it on way, way back and wasn't really using it for, for March at the tall. And then, um, just following a few interesting people and then started following, um,

more people around violent stocks and shares. So I used to be looking at stocks and shares all the time. I think about how to tweet about, I haven't looked at the stock market. I literally woke up one day. I'm like, I don't want to stop market today. I used to look at every day and since

weeks have gone past and I'm like, oh my God, there's another piece of the puzzle that's just clicked in there because I don't need it. I don't care for it. And that is just it rigged. Anybody that doesn't see that, let me map it. Quantitative ease in QE is from what I can, you know,

an analogy I use is play stack in the card deck at Blackjack table infinitely to improve the odds of the house. And that's exactly what's going on stock market. And the house is that 1% or less, give us the 1% and it's, it's like you say, it's, it's obviously a rigged game, but then no one knows

there's another option. So, and you know, over the last 10 years, it has been one of the better bets, has been to parking money there or in property. But, so I mean, that's a rigged game and property I've come out of because again, it's just everywhere there was an angle to make money. They close it

off and they'll go back retrospectively with property. It's not like it's liquid, like with Bitcoin, you can jump in and jump out. If I was buying something, I'm going minimum hold five years.

You've got to account in your stamp duty, but accounting or different things you've got. You've got to make sure that if you're leasing it, you have all the right certification and documentation, blah, blah, blah. And there's so much stress that goes with it and it's so illiquid and you have to

think, well, where are we in the market cycle? Why am I thinking to come out in five years to 10 years? Is that actually going to work? And then if we have a crash, it's stressful. You don't make as much money anymore. And you're, no matter how well you plan, things can go wrong because of

decisions from other people. Yep. So it just, and you know, it's interesting to get manipulated and we've grown up probably, how are you? Better. Well, okay. So I'm 43. So I'm well ahead of you.

But between us, we have grown up in a world, especially in the UK, probably true for the US as well. We're in the property, you know, like in they say a big way number go up. Yeah, like property is just going one way number go up. It's just going one way. Yeah. And we've all been tricked into

thinking this is it. This is this is the golden pot in the rainbow, my house and the number go up, and then I just become richer and richer and richer. And it's got to the point now where it's just ridiculous. Yeah. When you look at the prices, it is crazy. It is crazy. And it did well

for me and like I saw a trend and I jumped on and it worked. But four or five years ago, I started saying to everyone, I'm getting out of this. I thought this is not this is just it started. You look at it, just when you really involved, you think this just doesn't stack up. There's something

wrong here. If it relates what happens? Well, a lot of people are going to go under because they're mortgages, you know, we're on like the really, really low rates. People have, I remember when I first started getting in, I'd go to these conferences and there were people who would just

they were buying, property prices go up, they're re-mortgage, buy another one, buy another one, buy another one, lease them out, buy another one. Some of these people would go from like, four or five to a hundred in a matter of years. And then what? When it goes wrong, so you might

make a couple hundred quid on each one by to layer and you got a hundred. What if it goes the other way? Then what? And then the banks just come and take them. And it's them that's causing the problems. Yeah. In the first place. Yeah. And they know that no matter what happens,

firstly, we're going to get bailed out or bail in. And also, everyone who loses their assets, we're going to take them cheap. So we went, not a problem. We'll take them cheap or we'll fire sell them. Yeah. To get some money back on the balance sheet. Yeah. I knew there was a problem. I couldn't

quite put my finger on quite what it was. Now, after getting so involved with Bitcoin, I'm like, I'm so pleased I started scaling out. I'm so pleased. I wish I hadn't, I wish I didn't have anything because you don't even own your property. No. That's the other thing. You learn about extreme

ownership in this space. And what do you own? Yeah. And I always used to think, you know, bricks and mortar, safe as ours is, you own it. No one would say it's like, no, no, no. You don't own it. The bank owns it. Yep. And you are owned. Yep. Buy that bank. So you don't own

anything. You just, yeah. And they have your money as well. Yeah. I think a lot of people missed that point. You know, when, you know, when your salary is going into a bank, you know, when you give a bank your money, it's not your money. No, it's their money. It's a business that

you are investing in and they're taking that and giving it to other people at 10x or something. Yeah. And the fractional reserve banking. Yeah. It's just like, you never learn about school.

What advice would you give to somebody if they're listening to this and they're scraped together that 30 grand deposit or 40 grand deposit over years of toil to try and get on the property loaner? Lots of people ask me. This is actually one that I answer quite often and my advice

is always hold off, wait for a crash if you're desperate. If you're desperate to buy something, wait for a crash, wait for people where there's blood in the streets and people are crying and go and keep them in the bollocks. And I know that sounds horrible because that's probably a family

and they've probably lost their home and they've been told, they've been told, we're all told, get a job, earn enough, buy a house. Yeah, 2.4 kids, get the job, stable, get a car, buy one of these boring people carriers. It's not a linear lifestyle. Yep. And so they're all told that

and those people are going to lose these homes that they've worked really hard for. But someone's got to buy them. You know, it's someone's going to buy them. So it might as well be you. I'm just telling them, wait for this crash. But I've been saying it for three years. I've been saying,

it's, it is, I keep saying it's going to be within the next two years, definitely, definitely. I can't see how it's not. And then those two years have passed. And so then people are like, well, what happened to this two year? You know, people want to, so they end up buying.

Same with stocks and shares, I've been saying the same thing. Five years, like, don't touch the stock market. No crash. And when it crashes, it's going to make 2,000 made look like an absolute walk in the park. I know. But here we are. It gets higher and higher. Because basically the Fed can just print

on the European Central Bank, whoever is central back then, they just print and keep printing and keep printing. And there's nothing we can do to stop that note. It's just you're swimming against the tide the whole time. Yeah. You know, I would like to say to people, like, you know, if you have

scrambled out deposit together, we brave hold off for 10% of what you've saved into Bitcoin, just keep paying the rent. You know, rent isn't dead money at the end of the day. It is optionality. And there could be a time where, you know, you're going to be in a much better

position. But it's difficult. Do you get scared? Like, do you get scared if you said someone put 10% of your money in Bitcoin? Because the way I say it is, if number go up, it was their idea.

No thanks. If number go down, even for a day, they're on the phone. Oh, yeah. I've got a WhatsApp group. I've only managed to persuade a few people. Thankfully, my wife and my kids all stacking sets. Nice. Nice. My two brothers are stacking sets. I work in my mom and

dad. And hopefully my brothers will work in my mom and dad as well, because you know what you get that momentum. Yeah. And I've got a WhatsApp group of only a couple of friends and I've called it Blaine Princey. That's the WhatsApp group. And of course, it only starts pinging when

number go down. Right. Yeah. Yeah. What's happened? What is this? Is this because of China? Is this feeling like? No, it's just no one knows just just wait 10 years. Like I said, wait 10 years. But they, yeah, I like to think in 10 years time, somebody's going to, you know, send a nice bottle

of wine or something. Yeah, maybe maybe thank you. But, you know, something, right? It would be nice. It's difficult, really difficult for people to have that long term views. And this comes back to the high-time preference and the low-time preference mindset, because we've just been attacked by a

high-time preference behavior our whole lives. Yeah. From the minute we were born, you know, watching television, that is just high-time preference stuff falls down in that new car. Oh, yeah. And the lifestyle and the, yeah. Now, cheap money. Like cheap money. People

are addicted to cheap money. Yeah. And I remember you talking about the cantillon effect. You know, we don't realize just how far down that line of cheap money we are. And it really is just one great big house of cars. Yeah, it is. But we just, like you said, it's difficult to time it.

I think that's probably why the safest thing is just to say 10 years, because like we don't know, I mean, we don't know how long this nonsense can go on for. Like it could rip for another five years. Yeah. Like it could go for another 10. Yep. I don't know how. I'm just constantly shocked,

but it could do. People are waking up, aren't they? Absolutely. Look at what's going on around the world with the amount of protests against the governments in different countries all over the place. Yeah. And it's only going to be a matter of time before people realize, you know,

despite people. Yeah. Take the power away. Take the power away from them. It's like the ultimate silent protest. It really is. It really is. But yeah, it's that education. And it takes so, it takes so long. I don't know. I mean, do you started buying and then what took a couple of years,

Brita or three years for it to really sink in? Although I read your article and I was like, because when we first spoke on Twitter, I was like, okay, you know, what's in the city is traveling, like be really interested in getting on, but didn't know if you really would understand

anything about Bitcoin. And I thought, well, you know, and then you sent that and I was like, oh, okay. No, he knows his shit. I read that. I was like, yeah, absolutely. You couldn't agree with this anymore. If that was the one about complaining about the usability of Bitcoin,

is that right? Yeah, or crypto in that. Yeah. Yeah. And saying be basically be thankful for it. And I still haven't. Yeah. You know, I listened to all of the podcasts. There's some great ones out there. My Peter McCormack, he's. Yeah, he's got some, you know,

he's really good as well. I wrote to him a while ago about my arm, took the time to write back. I found that a lot of people would do that. So I had a lot of respect that he's obviously a busy guy. And he took the time to write back. And yeah, he's got some great stuff. He really does.

He responded to me as well. And I really appreciate that. And I find this a lot, actually, with with the crypto guys. Sorry. God, man, that's tough. It's such a horrible word. It is. It's becoming such a dirty word. You know, some of the people I've reached out to just like,

it's so generous with their time. Yeah. And come back. Yeah. Nick Sarman. Oh really? He responds. He's like, wow, this is, and you know, we got into discussion about, you know, how do we, with our kids, how do we, you fight, we are fighting a tide of high, high patterns, mindset behavior for our kids.

And I want to take that away from them. How do I instill in them? Like, you know, it's so important to say for your, your future. And we go into a little chat about that, just on the end.

And I find everybody to be so open, so available, like Marty Bennett as well. Yeah. Matt Odell. Matt Odell, I've asked him a few technical questions about BCC pay server and a few other bits. Really, really helpful. But that's what's so great. That's what's so great about, like you're

saying, the usability is not there because it's so early, be thankful. And everyone's still so nice and helpful because it's so early. Yes. In 10 years, we won't have that. No, it just, it will be like any other industry normalized. But right now, it's like a core group of people

who are really, really passionate about this. And it feels like there's a bit of a, right, we'll all help each other out. No one else is going to help us. Let's all just band together. And it's, it's such a breath of fresh air. It really is.

Did you find with Zabo? So he's having a similar problem with his kids, is he? Or like trying to, it's definitely on his mind. Yeah. I've said conversations with a few people about it. I set Sapo Deanna Musu's Eco11 course that he runs. Yep. He's running the next one. Next month, I think

Eco12. And where's that? Where's that first? It's just online. Oh, okay. Yeah. It's cheap. It's like 100 bucks or something. Really? Yeah. You can pay a set or card or whatever. I'll pay a card. I keep my sats. Yeah, exactly. Um, funnily enough, he had, he was, he was charging in Sats and then

he had to switch it because, yeah, you're dealing with hodlers. I, you know, no one wants to mow over. That's the part. So I sat his course and it's not like sitting at course. He doesn't set homework or anything like that. He just sends an email saying, um, right, there's going to be a

lecture at his 5th in France, both in France that you can tune into. If you miss it, you just download the audio or the, um, the video, right. And then on a Thursday, there's another hour where he updates on the lecture, answers some questions that have been emailed to him and answers some

questions that you might live, put in the chat. And I asked him about, um, instilling low time preference in kids. Mm hmm. And, you know, he said himself, this, I think he's doing just three, you know, this is something I am so focused on, so focused on. I don't want to know what other

people are doing. So he has the same questions, right? And, you know, how do we do this? How do we, as a community, how do we, like, you know, help each other, each other families? Yeah. Just, because that's the next generation. That's what, um, is going to really keep this thing forward.

But to get back to, like, you know, Bitcoin's too clunky. I hate this analogy. You can't like coffee with it. I mean, is that what we are? Are we just said, like, you can pay for a course in there.

Were you? No, no, no. Why would you use the best money on the planet to buy something? I mean, you just a store of value. You use it for a store of value until it gets to a point where it is a million or five million or ten million. And then you say, well, okay, I'll buy my

coffee with it because that's what everyone does. So yeah, it doesn't matter. The thing is, everyone goes in with that buying a coffee idea. And you can only come to the realization that you don't even want to buy a coffee with it after six months a year or, like, however long it takes

someone to really dig in. So that's always going to be an issue for people in their mind. But it's not that bad. Have you some of the recent wallets? No. Um, no, I haven't. Some of them are pretty, I mean, they're pretty much as easy as Revolo will end up. Right. I would never use them. I just

have a play around just because I'm interested to see how it's developing. But they're pretty good. Right. So which ones are you? So I downloaded DropBit. Right. That was one of the ones from Peter McCormax got that as a sponsor. Oh, I have a little buy from these wallets. I think you can

actually know with DropBit and you can convert straight into Lightning on the app. So you can just literally press like five pound, 10 pound, 10 pound, whatever you want to put into Lightning and it opens up a channel or you can use it instantly. It's really easy. See, Lightning's there attempting

you to have a new status. Is that the way you see it? Like, I see it as there might be some privacy enhancements with it. And I see it as just being more efficient. There's a lot of talk about, for say, between banks or between people settling, they can do all of that sort of stuff on Lightning

and just bring the costs down. And I'm going to have an interview with, you know, MandelDuck? No. They're like building games with Lightning integration. Okay. So, um, it will be... So I'm not a gamer, but for people of gaming and using like Fortnite, things like that, you could integrate it so that

you'd have like, right, everyone who jumps in, there's a hundred people and the winner takes all. And it might only be a hundred thousand sats or whatever it is. And you can integrate these things into games and it's an instant settlement. So my thought Lightning is that it might be these

weird fringe cases where, I don't know, you've got some kid in India who has access to the local PlayStation and they might be really good at it. They might earn more money playing a game than they would working in a factory for a week. So I think it's these little weird edge cases where you might

not be able to do it on chain, but with Lightning, why not? And as it sort of rolls out and people can use it for things like that, I think maybe people don't even know it's Bitcoin. Yeah. But they're earning and it's instant settlements. Like, oh, I have money. And all they have is a smartphone

and they don't have a bank account. They don't have access to normal traditional finance, but they're suddenly earning money and then they can buy things on Lightning from the money they weren't in a game.

So to improve your overall life. Yeah. So I see it as that kind of thing. But again, I like, I'm not buying anything. So it might be useful for them. It's not useful for me. So I don't use it.

I've got, so I do use YREX and I use YREX to buy. If you get the YREX card, which you do once you open the account, you get crypto back on install purchases. Have you ever done that? I happen naturally. That is a thrill when you walk out on like Tesco or Sainsbury or something. You've

just spent 70 quid on your week shot. You get tags from YREX saying you just earned 256 Hitoshis and you're like, yes. Really? Yeah. That's pretty interesting. Crypto back is, what's the percent, what's the, it's varies. One and a half cent. On all purchases, I will just be addicted to,

I'll be buying shit. I don't even need it. Right. Just being like, yes. Yeah. It's nuts. Okay. I have to look into that. Yeah. YREX. Yeah. There's a few, there's crypto.com and all these different ones. There's one in the US. Lolly, is that right? Lolly. Try Lolly and Fold,

there's the other one, but they're not here in the UK. Right. I've written to them a few times, and they're like, one UK. Not yet. So, no, I need to look into BlockFi. Is that what they're called?

Zach Prince? Yeah. And they're, they're interest. Interest, yeah. Now, I've got to really, like, dial down into that and, and understand whether or not I, would you be willing to part with your Bitcoin? Not for me. This is still a trusted third party, that's me. Right. Not for me. It's,

not, not for me, because I understand the appeal. And I think it's really good that there is that optionality. And for some people, they'll be like, yeah, you know, I want to do that. For me, I'm thinking, I genuinely believe that we're going to at least a million a coin.

I know that sounds mental to a lot of people, but in my head, yep, that is happening. Yep. So, whatever that is, is a percentage, huge, ridiculous percentage from where we are now. What's six percent a year on top for the risk of losing it, potentially all? Yeah. It's like,

it's, I'm already in probably what people would call the highest risk investment. For most people, they'd say it was the highest risk. Like, you know, you shouldn't put more than half a percent of your wealth in it. So, I don't really want to layer on top more risk the third party. And I haven't

looked into it enough, but I feel like if we have a crash in traditional finance, they're going to be linked somehow because they've obviously got to make that money somehow. So, they've got to be doing something with a traditional financial system. So, I'm betting it's going to crash,

and you're betting it's going to crash. So, if it crashes, and then we lose what we're hedging against because we're trying to get an extra six percent, we're like, oh, what do we think? So, that's my only concern with it, I think. I'm going to try and contact Zach and see if I can have

a conversation and understand more about it. You know, it's an interesting concept. It is a way to, that might be able to help you stack that a little quicker. Crypto-backed loans, I like the idea of, as well. They do both. They do both. Yeah. I like the same issues with it, but I think

that's really interesting because, you know, some people will have, especially people who are early, you know, they might have a serious amount of Bitcoin. They might say, well, I can take that loan, I could double down. If it's going to zero, as far as I can see it, this either goes to zero,

or it goes a million plus. And I can't see how it's going to zero, but if some weird, I don't know, something, the only thing I can think of as we get hit by a meteor. And then we're all dead anyway, so it's like, well, it doesn't matter. I can't think of another way, this fails, but so you could

double down. That's kind of interesting. There's another rabbit hole in the Warren Yeah, there are two that take down another. This is what I love about this space. There's always something new to learn. There is. It's very overwhelming, but for me, you know, I don't need to learn

about, you know, the code inside of it, the mining side of it, you know, all of this, you know, that that's just let that stuff do what it, that that's not my forte. I can learn about the stuff that I can get my head around. And that's what truly keeps you interested in thinking about it,

and addicted to it. I mean, you could be listening to two or three forecasts a day sometimes. I do. I took a job that allows me to just listen all day. And I would say I would listen to six to eight hours a day on that bridge. And I will, and I've been doing that for about two years. And

this doesn't have to be just a bit correlated, but it can be financed, it can be anything sort of around it. But yeah, I can easily smash through like five, six podcasts a day, all but audio books, and things like that. And I still know nothing. Yeah. Like, it is, it is the endless is it,

whatever, once you get to that point, like, Oh, I understand that, it's like, Oh, we have, have you heard about this? Yeah. What about this option? And that there's nothing else like it. I think that's the barrier to entry for everyone. It's just it's when I talk to people about it,

and they're like, well, I don't understand it's not me, I don't get it. It's like, right, okay, I understand that. And it's very important. So a lot, you'll never get to the bottom. And that puts them up. But then like, it's okay, do you understand your bank account? Of course it is.

Actually, you don't know. No, no, they don't. I'd be interested to see what happens with the younger generation. How old is your 14? They don't have 12 and nine old twins. And what's their perception of this? 14? Like when you're 14, you're pretty switched on?

Yeah. So do you want a beer, by the way? Yeah. Yeah. Good story about that, actually. Not a beer, but the other perception. The main perception is that he shut up. Rolling eyes. Oh, he's not going on that. But it's just switched recently.

So my son, he wrote his Christmas list, and he handed it to me. So we're mid December, obviously. And you know, the usual stuff's on their Hot Wheels track, and I had paid them like dream.

They know now that like, you know, getting all of this, they understand that they can't just ask Daddy for anything, because nowhere in the world he's just going to go out and buy it. Yeah. So there was all this list of stuff, pretty harmless stuff, Pokemon cards and whatever. And the bottom number nine, I think it was,

he'd written money. Right. And then he'd crossed it out. He'd misspelt money. This is the beauty of it. Oh, he'd misspelt money. M-O-N-Y. And then crossed it out and wrote Bitcoin instead.

Oh. And spelt Bitcoin correctly. And I crowd my own. Just immediately tweeted it out. I'm like, oh my God, when you realize like, you know, your son is a, he wants to stack sat at the edge of ice.

And so I like that he's crossed out money as well. And that it's not important enough to spell it right. That's nice. So my, I started running a scheme with them. They call it the daddy match scheme.

And he's like, yeah, because they'd get like 10 or 20 euros for their birthdays or whatever else. And my, my daughters now they do some babysitting. So they get 10 or 20 euros each time. And they'd come home and I'd say to them, whatever you give me out of your money, and they had money just

sitting in there, wallets and stuff like, go and get what you're comfortable with giving me. I will double it. So if you give me 15 euros, I will immediately double it to 30 euros. And then I will, you know, buy some stats for you on my wire X app. Nice. And keep them updated running spreadsheet.

Yeah. And that's what we'll do for, you know, this coming year. And it's a really nice idea, actually. So they didn't want to really go for it. And it flipped my head upside down. I'm like, but I'm doubling your cash. Yeah. Like, you know, and that's a guarantee. Right. It doesn't matter

like the price of Bitcoin or whatever else you're, I'm still doubling your cash. But still like that act of actually going to get the physical cash and giving it over is very, very difficult.

But it teaches them about investing. Yes. And that was what I wanted to do. It only took my oldest daughter about three weeks before she came to me and said, Daddy, we've got bank accounts in the UK. Yes. And we've had that since I was like born, but yes. So there's got to be a fair amount of money in there. Like, well, you know,

for what you need in life. Yes. You're not touching that. Yeah. That will be the same things. And so she said, well, can't I use some of that to buy Bitcoin? Well, yes, of course. Right. And so will you double it? Like, yes, of course. I do 500 pounds. Big stacking.

So I have to honor that. I've maxed her out now. So book perception is slowly changing. And it's, have you heard of the Bitcoin family? Is this the one with the guy from Holland? Yeah. And I have, I can't remember his name now. I saw a little clip. It annoyed me the clip a little bit because the way that it was shot, the one that I

saw was sort of painting him as a bit of a loony kind of, you know, that he'd thrown away a career. And I was like, no, he's smart. What he's doing? He's traveling around in a campervan at the motor thing. Yeah. What was his name? His name is Didi. Didi. Didi. Didi. Didi. And he's a Dutch guy.

And yes, he's the famous Dutch family that, well, they are not him, but they are the famous Dutch family that sold their house and all of their belongings in Holland. Yeah. And exchanged everything into Bitcoin. Nice. And hit business inside of it and all of these, you know, all of the sudden

people journey from all over the world. And like, you know, and every now and then you see on Twitter, like whatever happened to that, you know, Dutch Bitcoin guy that sold it. Yeah, you know, it's always negative. Yeah, of course, always negative. Yeah, because you're an idiot. Yeah. Now, Didi

and I touched base because last year I was part of an online homeschooling global summit where we run for two weeks, it was free for anybody to watch. And we interviewed some incredible people.

So Ken Robinson was one of the interviewers. Right. Have you ever seen his TED talk? Is that the one that was on your website? Do you always kill creativity? Yes. Yes. The most downloaded watch that took all time. He came on and spoke about the current education system

and how it needs to change and how we should adapt. So we had like a really good showing for this. And Didi came on and talked about his experience with homeschooling and world traveling and how he almost went to prison because the Dutch government wanted to throw in prison. So we went through this.

So what had happened is he built this amazing business. Sad circumstances. Just farther down the hill. Yeah, passed away. Had a bit of a, as you can imagine, stress anxiety. Yeah. You know, the doctor said he needs to calm down. So they went away for six

months. And then when they got back, I had to go to court because the kids had been out of school for too long. Yeah. Almost went to prison, dodged the bullet, sold the house, sold everything.

And that was a big wake up call. Then it was like, well, we're going, we're opting out. Yeah. And we're voting with our money. And there's a whole new financial system happening over here.

I won't part of that. Not what you're like. Smartening. So as they're traveling around Europe, they come and stayed with us in France. So they came to out on our front lawn. And that was amazing because now my kids are talking to other kids about Bitcoin. Yes. And this was a moment, I think,

where it's like, wow, you can see the future and you can understand where this is headed. And that was a really nice, I think, I think I'm going to get to have three and similar ages. Similar ages to ours. Yeah. Three girls. And we would sit down and have long form

conversations like Didi and I would out to 14 year old daughters would sit for hours talking about the money system and how Bitcoin can change it. And, you know, they're engaged in it. That's what an idea is. One question is, how do we raise awareness? We ask them, of course, you know,

oh, well, you need an influencer to start talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll really like it. You think it's going to be that easy. If like someone like Kim Kardashian starts throwing around the V sign that the younger generations start getting involved, not her. Do you know who I,

man, it's never going to happen, although he's read and who I would love to talk to about this stuff. And I think would, would actually help someone like Ricky Choudet's everything that he talks about aligns. But I don't think he's a bit corner. Someone like that. Yeah. Who you can't

argue this guy's smart. He's fucking smart. Yeah. And he's now hit a level where he's got a huge, huge following. And he just says it how it is. And he doesn't give a shit about what people think.

You get one or two of these guys. Things are changed quick. Things are changed. But like, you've got Russell O'Kong and a few of these guys have stepped in and that helps. But I think, if you get, if it's like a Kardashian or something like that, I think people will be like,

well, most people don't care. I think it's just going to be a promotion. But if you get someone who you know, says what they truly believe, that's where like, you know, things will start changing.

But it's finding people of that level who want to talk about it. Yes. Firstly, they already have the money. So they're sort of further away from seeing real struggle. And secondly, they're so busy with other things. Who has the time? For every one of those people, 100,000 other just as influential

or famous people that they come out and just denounce it. Yeah. You know, it's, I put something out the other day. I asked the secret footballer on Twitter if he had ever heard of any, are there any premiership footballers that have requested to be paid in Bitcoin or had invested in Bitcoin?

And he come back and said he's not really heard of any, but some have been exposed to like some of these ICO scams. Yeah. So they've been tanked already. That's it. And that's it. So they're like, oh, well, whatever. Yeah, it's getting my skin around a week anyway. So yeah, that's the problem,

isn't it? Because everyone goes in. Oh, did you find when you first got involved, did you go down that route? I certainly did. Of just ICOs and this and that and like looking at all the different alternatives or you make a slightly before Ethereum and all of that. So the, yeah, my first

foray into Bitcoin was my first and then Ethereum and then Dash and then Litecoin. And I've reversed them all. Yeah. It's all back in just a bit. Yeah. Just as my understanding has grown. And when I look at, you know, what is happening, it all comes down to that decentralized

nature of Bitcoin. And you know, Dash is a company. He's got a great CEO, Ryan Taylor. He seems like a really, really nice guy. But that is a single point of failure. And that's what I'm trying to get away from. Yeah. And that's like, you look at the stock market. So like, okay, do I want to buy

stocks and shares in a particular company? No, that's a single point of failure. Yeah. That's how they all are. But when you first get involved, I mean, I had a guy who introduced me to this on the last person I had on the podcast. And he was like, yeah, and this is a theory,

he'd made a load of money from a series all excited. You know, this is Ethereum and this is going to be the world computer. And I was like, well, that sounds pretty cool. You know, that's going to be interesting. And he's like, yeah, and this is Neo. And that's going to be the,

you know, Chinese version. And this is going to your sort of don't really know what you're doing. You're like, well, try it. And I'll diversify my portfolio. And you're trying. And I can see how like a footballer or someone who's got the money. And they're just like, yeah, like you say,

like, I'll check 50 grand at that. That sounds interesting. They're taking advice from someone because they're like, that's going to be the next Bitcoin. And you can't realize there's not going to be an expert point until you've gone through all that and lost money with them and

realized that, yeah, it might be faster, but it's faster because it's centralized. And how do you feel about like what's going on at the moment? I think Peter McCormack managed to rile everybody up on Twitter about, you know, people going on to exchanges and they'll be in this choice of Bitcoin

and Bitcoin cash. And how I'd actually agree with them. I do. Like, you know, it's, I get his point, the way that he's gone about it is trying to stir things up. Like, that's his way. And I appreciate that because it does start the conversation. But I do agree. If you go on, there are two

Bitcoins. There's obviously only one. Which one is tempting? Yeah. And it's the cheaper. What is, when you first get in, you're like, Oh, I can buy 100,000 of these things for a pound or I can buy 100 millionth of Bitcoin for, you know, so you go for what's the cheapest? Because in your head,

you're like, Oh, more upside. And people will do that. Like Bitcoin and Bitcoin cash. Well, they're both Bitcoin. So surely they're both good. And you buy, that's why I get so annoyed with Bitcoin cash and just use a different name. It's just it is going to confuse people. And there

will be people who are almost there. And they've actually decided they push the button and they bought it. And then they bought Bitcoin cash and like the likelihood is 10 years from now, realistically, only it is. It's just going to be worth nothing. And I then feel a bit sorry for

them. Because like you were so close to like, okay, no real. I mean, I fell for Ethereum. I fell for a whole smart contract thing. Yeah. When I was like, buying into this whole, everything's going to go to a blockchain. And you know, you can have smart contracts with property rights

and all of this kind of thing. And then you just like, you know, what would exist? Yeah, that's just no need to eat. You don't need to eat like no need. I mean, did you listen to Jimmy's song on Peter McCormack, and short his podcast, they're talking about the difference between

marketing, he's basically just saying every other old coin is just marketing. They've taken what is great about Bitcoin and they're marketing the hell out of some other tiny little part of it.

But that's why they do well, because they do have them and Bitcoin doesn't. But I like Jimmy's song. Again, he just says it how it is. Yeah, it makes me laugh. He just says it how it is. And he clearly knows his stuff. So it's nice to have they're the people you need in the space to like,

it took me a while to find that, you know, find a following on people like Matt O'Dell and my abandoned and Jimmy's song and people where you go. Okay, I've listened to them for a year. The things they've said have either turned out true, or they were very much along the right lines and that there's

no sort of buy this by that. It's very don't over stretch yourself. Learn first for things that you'd actually tell your children or friends, they're telling you. And over time you go, well, I trust you more now because you haven't bullshitted me. Whereas when I first came in, it was like,

buy this and buy that and it's gonna lambo. And it's these just dickheads just trying to just sell you a load of crap. And then where are they a year later? No one trusts them anymore. And they're on to the next scam. So you see how their minds develop as well. Listening to a lot of these

guys over like the last year or so. And how they've grown into the space and how their mindset has changed. And Marty bent as a classic example. Just a few months ago, he started really digging into like the subject of this integration of the family, which touched me like immediately. Like, yes,

I've seen it. I see it every single day. I managed to reverse it, you know, because I just forced myself to think differently and valued time and want to be with my kids. And that for me, the way I have to quieten my mind down is because the monkey mind never stops and you always,

you wake up like, you know, who the hell are you? You're not going to work? Why, you know, what makes you feel so special, you've got to be added value, you know, we're adding value. And when you switch your mindset to think, right, no, this is a 10 year project,

bringing up my kids. That's my job for now. And when I listen to Marty talking about this integration of the family and how kids are getting bought up in daycare, yeah, that pre-kindergarten now has waiting lists. What is that? Yeah, that's not bad. How does that pan out in 20 years?

Can't be good. It can't be good. Yeah, it can't be good. And it's quick, like, go back 100 years, that wouldn't even dream of it. No, just wouldn't even dream of it. And now it's like it's getting normalized so quickly. How is it normal that a mother has a baby and after six months is back

in the office, working up 50 to 60 hour job a week? And someone else looks after their child. But somehow we've managed to construe it out to such a, like, that is respected. Yeah. And you go back even 40 years or 50 years and it was one man had one job. They owned their

house. They owned their car. They might only go on one holiday year because travel was more expensive. But the family would be much tighter near, like you're saying, it's gone from that to they both have a job to now in a lot of cases, they both have two jobs and they barely see their children.

And when they come home, they're so tired and they feel so shit about themselves because they're just like, what am I doing in life? Like deep down, maybe it's not at the forefront of the head, but like you must think like when you're sat behind a desk just punching in data of something

that doesn't matter. You get home, you must eat down just thing. When I die, I've achieved nothing. I've changed nothing. I've done nothing. And I'm not even seeing my family. So it has to go the other way like I can't see and it always has been that way. So yeah, it's it. How has it done this

quickly and it's normal? No, you're saying you're trying to step away and trying to do what humans have done forever and you're trying to go back to that and people think you're mad. People ask me all the time. All right there. When are you going to get back to real life? I'm living it. I don't know.

Life seems pretty real. Yeah, it's. Yeah, I don't like, you know, what is this? Why do you have this picture of what real life is? So you've gone from seeing your kids what? One hour a day in the evening on a weekday. Probably on average. Yeah. Once. Yeah. To now you get to spend your days.

Yeah, I'd be up and gone before they even woke up and three nights a week I'd come home. They'd obviously. And so weekends, if you weren't on some kind of business meeting or you know playing golf, taking customers out or something, then yeah, you'd get to spend a little bit of time with

them. But then you just become a lodger in your own home and you upset the rhythm and stuff, right? Actually, that's an interesting point because now all of a sudden, you know, my wife, we decided we want you to be at home. So to bring up the kids because it's vital that you're around for the

kids. And it just causes a big conflict between husband and wife when, if I get home at seven o'clock at night, kids are just about to get into bed. Daddy walks through the door. Hype them up.

Oh my God. Forget it. Yeah. And how many people that might be listening to this? No. And then you get into an argument or like, you know, kind of a bad situation where, oh, I just wanted him to go to sleep and you will come. Yeah. I just busted my ass to get home so I could see him before

they went to bed. And it causes all this friction, especially at the weekends, you know, you feed them at the wrong time or you bath them at the wrong time. And that knocks out their rhythm. You know, the very creatures of habit, a very small age, that's very important. And when the mother

was at home, she works on that. You come, you have no idea. Like, did you feed them the wrong thing at the wrong time? Yeah. Just cause carnage. It's probably cleaned up. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's interesting to have heard Marty talking about that. And it was an

on an interview that he was having with Trace Mayer about it. There's something going on as well, in the space, which is not probably not that news are going to be interested in at all. But how do you feel about this whole argument at the moment about running a full node? And this already,

this seems to be in, this is a brand new community, right? 10 years old, 11 years old. And Trace Mayer, the other day on the podcast was talking about what you have, like, three level citizens.

Right. And now all of a sudden, I'm like, what? We don't, like, are you already segregating the citadels? Like, you know, there are a few things I don't agree with that he says. But I think his point is be whatever class system you want. But if you really want extreme ownership,

run a node in the same way that, like, if you really want to know that you own your Bitcoin, or you control your Bitcoin, have your own keys. And I get his point, but some people, especially when they're just coming into the space, at the moment, it's just, it's a lot of

messing around to do it. Yep. A lot of people who are first getting in, they might say, okay, well, I'm going to chuck a cup a hundred quid into it. What are they going to do? Chuck a cup a hundred quid in it, and then spend 400 quid on a nodal, or one of these pre, because they're not,

like, I know they're like, oh, yeah, well, you know, you can just run your own node and you just spin one up and you, you know, going to command line and do this. And it's like, no, because most people can't code. Most people don't understand what you are talking about. The level at which

most people can operate is like, buy a box, plug it in, press star. That's it. And like, anything that's more than that is too much. It will happen. Like, I'm sure even a year from now, they'll be half the price, and it will just be like, you spin one up and you just press run,

or, you know, there'll be an application you can download on your phone, or there'll be, there'll be some advancement that will make it easier. But when, when people get annoyed at people for not running a full node, it's like, yeah, like, the whole point in Bitcoin is,

do what you want, take control of your own life. So then to say that, and then say, but you have to run a full node, it's like, no, no, no, no, because now you're going against your whole ethos, which is do what you want and control your own life. So obviously it's the goal is to

do it. If you've got a million quiz worth of Bitcoin, and you're not running a node, pretty stupid, because it makes the network stronger, and you know you're, you're in full control. So it'd be crazy to not say like, okay, I'm going to spend a couple under quid to run a node,

and literally you have a box and plug it in. It's not that hard. But if someone's doing, then you and they don't cover under quid, so well. Yeah, what's your thoughts on it? I was saying, yep, you run that sentiment. I'm not at the place yet where I don't think I need

to run a node. I'll look into it, I think six to nine months down the line, there'll be something off the shelf, which is very easy. In fact, there's a company that I contacted, I will find them, because they're looking at doing something mobile for those people that travel, you know,

with Bitcoin comes digital, no mattering, right? Yeah. So how can you run a full node if you are on the, on the goal of the time? And especially if you don't have, if you're moving around from an Airbnb to Airbnb, you know, how can you, how can you keep that going? And there's a company,

BTC pays the other one. That actually, when you run that, it runs a node for you. Right, okay. So, because I saw you were, you'd put something out where you got a place in Thailand. Yes, you were talking about your end thing. Yeah, they're very nice, actually. Yeah, thank you.

So I sadly opened it up and my fiance was next week, like, can we go now? I was like, no, no, we've got to take some time. Not money. You know, what would you rather do by two flights for a thousand pounds or stack some sets? Yeah. Well, these are conscious decisions people are making.

So Nimble node is the name of the Agile node. Keep an eye on those, but then it's all, they said it's all in, like, early stages at the moment, they'll be launching something in the next few months.

But so that, yes, that site that I put together, Airbnb coin, that came out of the fact that, after I put it together about a year ago, and he's got absolutely zero attraction. I put it together because I figured there's a need for people out there. There's a big traveling Bitcoin community.

Who wants to, who, like, did he, for example, lives on Bitcoin? He's all in on Bitcoin. Yeah. You know, see, he needs to find accommodation on flights and whatever else. And there are, there are people doing that, like, traveler, for example. You can book hotel rooms now.

There are different flight companies. He can live Bitcoin or Litecoin, I think, uses as well. And I was thinking, well, I would accept Bitcoin as rental, so would I. But I would accept Bitcoin as rental, like cheaper. I will give you a discount if you give me Bitcoin because I'm convinced.

Yeah. Oh, it's 10%. Yeah. Yeah. So I put the website together and I threw it up and I threw it out there, and nothing came from it. And then Matt O'Dell was on the podcast with Steven Lavera the other day, and right towards the end of the podcast, Matt O'Dell was saying, you know, what's going to

drive this more with the merchants. You're going to see more merchants accepting discounts for Bitcoin. Yeah, it's absolutely right. 100% that's going to have that absolutely right. And I was thinking, that was my site. So I called it back up again, and I like just jiggle around a

little bit, changed it from crypto, a friendly accommodation to Bitcoin. And I think I've got a fill around with like discounts. He was nice enough to route it out. So it got like 60 or so many hits a day, but still nobody has come forward. I still think like you and I've discussed,

people prefer to hodl rather than hodl a day. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then it's the thing of we still don't know how trackable everything is. A lot of people really privacy focused. So then they've got a thing, okay, well, if I want to send Bitcoin there, then I've got to put it for a

mixer and then I've got to send it. And then there's the traceability. So I think a lot of people just buy it back on a treasure to get it. Yep. So the way I figure it is like, if somebody wanted to rent the place, they could just literally email me, we jumped on a phone call, we come to an agreement,

and I would just like email them a Bitcoin address. And yeah, that's that. Yeah, that'd be that'd be fine. Now, I was putting the figures out there the other day and you responded, have I tried this?

Yeah. Now I signed up and downloaded it all and I was looking into doing it, but there's a very little amount you can actually do. Is that correct? There's very low liquidity, low liquidity. And I think for the first two months that you remember the network, you can only do like $70 worth of

Bitcoin, something like that. But I think once you've done a few trades, it bumps up. And then if someone who has a key who's done a seven-hour trades, they can, if they've done a successful trade with you, they can sign with you and then it ups the amount. So you can do more. It's not,

it's still low liquidity. Like sometimes you go on there, there's nothing in the UK. And then sometimes you go on and there's like five or six people. Right. That's what I've seen. And it will range between the lowest you'll ever find is 0% fee or like current market price. And then some

people will just take the piss and want 30% on top. Yep. So is the waiting game like it might be the app to switch on every day and just have a little look? And it's not a perfect system because you have to send by your bank to their bank and then what if they're a smooth call? It seemed really

clunky. Yeah, it is. But then what's the other option is, you know, one of these shitty things like Coinbase or Kraken or one of those. And it's all KYC or you get to know someone who minds and will sell you the coins or you go to the cash points, but then it's 10% on top. Yeah, it's probably

going to be worth it in the long run to have those coins and then not have a KYC on them. But then it's 10%. That's a lot. That's a, you know, if you said that to someone in like, you when you're doing forex, yeah, you were like, yeah, yeah, it would take 10%. You imagine the abuse you'd get.

We're just like, no chance. So it's not perfect, but it sort of sits in the middle of all those. It's not completely anonymous because someone has your banking details and you don't know who that person is, but it does tell you if you bought from them, it tells you like how many times you bought from

them. So you could buy from them once and then not again. So it sits somewhere in the middle. It's not perfect. I'd like to see who's it who makes coal card coin kite. They make these little USB sticks. Can't remember what they're called now. See those little on the open time. I think it'd

be cool if there was like a Bitcoin meetup and when you go to meetup, you can either have a million sats, two million sats, five million sats, different varieties, and people can go there with those things and you just pay the price of that plus the price of one of those open times, which I think

they work out like 15. And you buy it, you put it inside your laptop, it verifies if it's real Bitcoin or not, you put it in your pocket, it's like a stunt. And if you have meetups where once a month people got together and it's people who know each other and it's like a, you know,

beer piece of Bitcoin sort of chatting, people just buy then an exchange then. That is effectively like Wasabi or one of these mixers, but it's just in person. I think that would be quite a nice system, you know, and it's just like a... It'd be a nice way to get moves invested, actually.

It's really good. And to go along to one of these meetups and just say like buy one of those for 20 quid and you've got a little bit of it. Yeah, tiny little bit of Bitcoin. So really fully loaded it, you know, you just do anything. Just to get over that little... You can see if you open it,

so you know that the private keys in there, no one's tampered with it. You whack into the side of your computer or phone, just into the bottom of the phone and it will just come up with how much Bitcoin's on there. You can spend from that wallet if you want to, but you could pass that

like I could have one with a Bitcoin on it. I could sell it to you, you could sell it to someone else, they could sell it to someone else. You don't know how many times it's changed hands and there's no transaction fees. And there's nothing recorded on the blockchain, but it is physical. So effectively

it's physical Bitcoin. We're going to stop the recording there. Join us soon for part two.