EP07 pt. II Bitcoin podcast with Christian Moss

Welcome back to the bit by bit podcast. Thanks for joining us for part two of my discussion with Christian Moss. For anyone who's joining us now and hasn't listened to part one, I suggest you go back.

And for everyone else, I hope you enjoy. I started... I've done all sorts. I've done all sorts. I was in the mode of trade for a while. How old are you? 30. Oh, I've done pretty young too. I've done like so many different things.

Yeah, I just... I'm a bit like that. So I started working and businesses from like young. Like, yeah. Very, very young. I've always just enjoyed doing that kind of stuff. And then I... Yeah, I went into the mode of trade and started buying and selling cars by myself after that for a while, off the drive and...

Entrepreneur, basically. I don't really like the work that everyone calls yourself that. I just enjoy it. I'm always thinking, "What can I do? What's going to make some money? What's interesting to me?"

So I did. You're not G-Wagons. They're like big Mercedes, 4x4s. They look like a box on wheels. The hippie van kind of thing? No. It's more like... They were like ex-military vehicles. And they're just like a big box on wheels, basically. And now they're stupid money.

You'll see them round the posh areas of London. I did the old military ones, which were much cheaper. So I did those off the driveway for a while. Then I went into property. I did that for a while.

Then I went into running dental practices and botox clinics. You've really random. How did that happen? You just sent it into botox? No. What happened was a friend of mine, basically, family, very, very close.

They had a couple of dental practices. And they weren't doing particularly well. We'd sat down and she said to them, "We're really struggling. I think things aren't great." "I don't know what to do. We've got problems with staff and we've got problems with our dentists."

And I was like, "Oh, I can sort that for you." And she was like, "What do you mean?" I was like, "Oh, I can sort of tell me the problems they had." I was like, "Yeah, I'll fix that." They weren't business people, maybe. But they sort of were, but I think they'd lost love for it.

And they had people who'd worked there for a long time who had their own specific ideas about how things would work. And the tell was wagging the dog. So I sort of arrogantly just went, "Yeah, I'll sort that. Like half joking."

And she said, "Well, why don't you come over and look at it?" She said, "All right." And I went in and I said, "Well, for a start, I hate your carpets. I hate the way it looks. I hate basically everything about it. It feels like a dental practice to me. It smells like a dental practice.

Your staff are rude, and just said, "Well," and I said, "I wouldn't come here." And she went, "All right, then. Do you want to build us a new one and give me a budget? I'll do it." And so I helped design and build a new one across the road.

And that was how I got into it. I just, I knew nothing about dentistry, started building this one. TV, kind of thing. It comes in and it literally was. Yeah, like kitchen nightmares, but business nightmares. It literally was.

And yeah, quite interesting to pitch that move. Yeah. Especially next venture. Yeah, that's right. But yeah, so I mean, I did the design for them and made it not feel like a dental practice.

We called it the gallery. So it was like an art gallery. We walked in and they had our, you know, arts. All our walls and completely changed the place, had a beautiful fountain in the middle.

And just, it didn't feel like a dental practice. Nicola Doria's wife had something similar, so she. Oh, really? She just died at the laundromat. Okay. But all the laundromats in Japan are horrible. They're not places you want to eat.

You dread it. It's like noisy and like, everything rusty. But she made this one. It's like called the wash. And it's like, it's like, it's like, it feels like an Instagrammable cafe. Almost. It's kind of designed. Well, it's got, it's still got your washing machines.

But you wouldn't mind going there. It's a much nicer place to spend an hour where your clothes wash. Then the other one, right. So, yeah, she showed me some photos once. Maybe I can shoot it.

Yeah. Kind of still the concept. Like, why do we have to make dental practices ugly? Yeah. It was, you know, design isn't really that expensive. No, it's just having some imagination. And also it triggers, so like, a lot of people are scared of the dentist.

And a lot of people have had bad experiences, especially from like childhood, especially people, you know, when they used to rip people's teeth out of school and that kind of stuff. You know, you go about 30, 40 years and dentistry was very different to how it is now.

And going in and having that smell, that smell of triggers it and certain, like the way that, you know, the layout of where you would sit, well, this, these little details with trigger people.

And I suffered quite badly from anxiety myself. And so like last night coming to that meeting, getting myself and actually meeting new people, I feel incredibly uncomfortable. I don't know. You probably, I don't know if he knows like I went absolutely like pink in the face.

Like really, I wasn't sweating. I was quite nervous, but I didn't notice that. Yeah, but so like I then pick up on these triggers with people because I suffer from myself. It's amazing how many like people who like suffer from anxiety, but yeah, it's like,

but in a way, I don't know, for my purposes, you don't seem to notice, they seem like very confident people, but it's kind of nice to know that everybody, even people who are like, look like they're doing well, still suffer from things, right? I think we all do. We all have our

own problems. I mean, mine's like a weird, I have just like a weird trigger where if I'm meeting new people, my head will think, what are they thinking? You know, you go into all these dark places where most people are just having a normal conversation. Yeah. And then I have this weird

thing where like, for no reason, I'll just go like my face will start burning red. I don't even have to necessarily... There's a logical kind of response. Yeah, I don't have to actually be uncomfortable.

I can have a really nice chat with someone, be really interested and I like that will happen. And it's really uncomfortable. And then sometimes, sometimes I'd say like, oh, by the way, I'm probably look like a fucking tomorrow now, but it's nothing you've said. It's just one of these weird things

that happens in life and all like my hands are sweating and stuff like that. So I think loads of people suffer from stuff. Yeah, yeah. But it's human nature, right? Depressions, another one, right?

You'll have somebody who's completely fine, but secretly, you know, they couldn't get out of bed that morning or something is all linked. Church, all right, famously. You call it the Black Dog. Oh, really? Yeah, we still got stopped on, right? Yeah, cool. I think, yeah. But that, I mean,

so that's actually what that's meant to me. Yeah, that's what made me design it in the way I designed it. And it's also what took me out of it because... We don't know it anymore. It's just sold now, but did design stop there? Yeah, I did that for seven years, introduced Botox because that's

where the money is, introduced to even one thing because that's where the money is and all this stuff. I think it's probably... English people don't care about the teeth. That's right. That's stereotyping. There is that stereotype. Other countries, you know, people would... America,

it's always that, isn't it? They were like, "Oh, you think it's had bad teeth?" It definitely changed. It changed from a dental practice, which was more like NHS, basic, obstinate, philanthropic drill, to doing more of the cosmetic stuff. Or like a beauty barbershop. Yeah, it's a place... Yeah,

in a way, people go to a beauty barber. Yeah, the haircut. It's a social thing. Like talking to the guy. It's a social outing as well, right? Yeah, absolutely. But in all honesty, I had no love for that business. Sure. It did at the beginning. It excited me because I saw all these new and

exciting things we could bring in. But I lost love with it. And it got to a point where I was really, really anxious going anywhere, speaking to anyone. I didn't want to leave my house. And when I came home at night, I would paint just to calm myself down. I really enjoyed it. I just found

that I put on some music. I'd shut myself away from the world. And I'd paint. And it got to the point where in the mornings, I'd barely slept because I'd been painting all night. And I'd be thinking, "I just want to paint." I don't want... I never painted before. I loved it at school when I

actually wanted to go. I was sort of advised to go on and do some more and go to university and do all this stuff. But circumstances may not have to work. So I put it aside and I just never went back to it. And I picked it up again because I was suffering. And I was just like, "I need a

release. I need to do something." And so I started painting. And then, yeah, eventually I just went, "I've had enough. I don't want to do this anymore. I'm going to just paint." I was left and I left that work. And then whilst doing that, I stumbled into Bitcoin. And now just those two things are

what I have. So like every day now, I wake up and I love it. Yeah, I can say, I think there's a few others who probably don't like kind of Bitcoin artists take people around, right? There seems to be some sort of like natural thing there. There's something appealing about both of them maybe.

I think so. Yeah, I think so. I think it's quite a fringe thing. Both of them are quite fringe. And they're sort of away from normal society. You don't get up and go to do your nine to five.

Yes, sir. No, sir. Thank you very much. It's very different. Yeah, I guess I kind of kind of aspect of freedom and maybe your personal. Yeah, freedom. And doing something that you love. Go ahead and ask permission. You don't need anybody else to do it. You just, you know.

And loads of people don't agree with it. And it's all like, don't like what you're doing, but you don't care. You're like, "I'll just do what I like doing." And I think that's where that link with Bitcoin is. Because artists are kind of rebels themselves, right? Kindly. Bitcoin

is like, you know, I'll take it. That kind of punk. Yeah, definitely. That's like, you know, Bellian, isn't it? Really? Yeah. What is it that drew you into Bitcoin first? Well, how did you, obviously, you're a developer. This stuff makes sense. It's really random, actually.

It wasn't like, I had no particular, when I was going to Bitcoin, I was like, I wasn't like a libertarian or anything. I was kind of somewhat fresh out of like four years after uni, I think.

So I was actually working in Australia, in Sydney for an app development company. You know, I was kind of, I think at the time, I was like, very interested. My main thing was physics. I was like, really interested in physics. I was like, studying physics as like a hobby kind of thing.

And I was going to make a YouTube physics channel. And I was actually doing an open university course. That's cool. But my day job was actually making games. And yeah, so like, you know, politically, or like, anything.

I wasn't, I didn't really wasn't aligned in that respect. I was probably, I was, yeah, I was just like anybody else my age kind of like left a bit left in liberal. And you know, you know, I didn't really think about of it too much. I don't really understand the concept of why you'd want to have

your own money and no one like, you know, idea of that kind of thing. And I was actually just, yeah, like the company I work for, we basically, in Australia, at the time, they had like a 60-minute show, which is like, I think we have in America, we have one in Australia. It's like very big.

And he had the 60-minute show about this kid who made an app and like made like a million, well, $10 million, you know what I mean? He made the insane amount of money on the simple app. And that, at the business, I work for made app. So because of that one TV show, we got like,

loads of clients, just like all these like people coming in off the street with like, you know, 20, 40 grand who wanted us to make an app for them. So I was just like making all these like, basically, kind of a shit coin version of apps, but I like people would come in and make like,

angry bears with one amazing, you know, angry bees, you know, all these kind of ideas. And then one guy came in and wanted to make a Bitcoin wallet, an app. It's like 2000, early 2013. Okay. I had no, what's Bitcoin? What's this? I had no idea because it was my job to make it.

And then my co-worker, like kind of sat to the left of me. He just kind of, I saw him kind of, he swiveled round on his chair. He was like, Oh, Bitcoin. He's like a secret. Like, you didn't talk about it. He was like a kind of a libertarian kind of gold, both guy. And he always kept it

quiet, you know, but he was like, yeah, I've got some of them. So the start's talking to him. And then, then I had to learn about Bitcoin just to make this app. And yeah, from, from, and then I kind of watched like Andreas Antonopoulos videos. And I think my, my first thought about Bitcoin

was once like he explained to me, it's like, Oh, that makes sense, you know, internet money. That's bad to happen at some point. And I was like, there's only 21 million. Oh, and then I thought imagine if there's only 21 million dollars, how much would one dollar be worth? I better get one,

you know? So it's just from that point, it was pretty much like financial and technological. Technologically, as developers interested in this idea that you could have programmable money, and then financial, I thought, yeah, well, this thing takes off getting early kind of thing.

It wasn't like that early. It was just before the run for up to Mount Gox. So I think it was like a hundred dollars. And then it ran up to like eight hundred. And that's when I bought my first one, eight hundred dollars, they went up to like one thousand three hundred. Then the whole month

Gox in crash. But yeah, I guess kind of fairly early. It sounds like it was meant to be you had that libertarians that next year, just maybe, yeah, yeah. But then I just got into it and like, kind of fell down the rabbit hole. I started to mine Bitcoin. I made all these Bitcoin games.

And now that's because of Bitcoin, I started to read about what's the single Austrian economics? Yeah. Never. Never even heard about like, Kenzie and economic. They just heard about economics, right? And then all these different schools of thought. No, no, actually, I moved

back to Japan. I don't know. I think it's like a political journey I had. I would say that the idea is like different ways of thinking about, you know, things that other than what I just learned at university, which is told. Yeah. Well, you know, you need to claim that there's kind of one kind of

thought. Ironically, there's like one kind of thought you have to buy to a lot of time, right? But there's an idea that, you know, fringe kind of things, you know, and kind of Bitcoin connects a lot of these like punk movements, right? You know, you know, so that's kind of, and then I started

to fall down the rabbit hole about, okay, well, I know it's, I actually started to like read a lot of like lock and book, as they're kind of like philosophers, which is all about, you know, sovereignty and the idea about the state shouldn't be too big. And like, I'm not, I'm not an uber self-sovereign

libertarian, but I'm probably like more towards the end of small government. I think I'm kind of, you know, I don't like to give labels, but the whole thing kind of Bitcoin introduced me to this idea that at least less government lessons are varying. It's as little as possible. Like,

maybe I like this. I don't know. It's complicated, but you know, but yeah, and that's kind of, that kind of started to attract me more than the original technological thing and finance. I'm thinking that's one of the reasons why I used to be a big blocker. I went from a big blocker to

a small blocker, because I appreciated more the sovereignty more than the actual, then the actual, we need to make this like a great app, you know, kind of, that's why when I was saying about anti-technology, like a similar concept, you know, that's kind of like, I suppose my kind of

introduction to it. Yeah, you fell into it. And yeah, dig, just grip you hard quickly, or was it like a slow burn? Yeah, straight, sort of way. Like, a lot of people say that when they heard a Bitcoin, like they were skeptical, and they heard about it, and they thought this is stupid

internet money, and they forgot about it, and then they came back to it later. I was like, as soon as I heard about it, I thought, yeah, of course we have something like this would come. It just kind of makes sense, right? Yeah. No, so, yeah, so I was really into it. Obviously,

I'm more, I'm much more skeptical of Bitcoin now. So when I first got into it, I was like, not skeptical at all. I was coming in a way, just like, you know, it's great. It's amazing, you know, it can't be killed because it's decentralized. But as I become a developer, you start to see

like how the sausages make. So now anyway, I'm more skeptical of Bitcoin's chances and success. But it's a more of a healthy skepticism. I think you've got it. You've got to have a little bit of skepticism. But what is it that worries you now? Like, what's your,

if you're looking at it and you're thinking like, okay, what concerns me? I think it's the code bait. It's kind of crap. In a way, how it was made. Like, technically speaking, well, it's like, if you build it from scratch, you wouldn't do it that way. But we can't really

change it because we need to kind of respect the original implementation. Obviously, if you could change it, then it wouldn't be decentralized. So in a way, a lot of the things we're doing now in a way kind of like hacking it. But in a way, that's kind of how the internet works. You could

always rebuild the whole internet from scratch. Personally, I guess what concerns me. I suppose there's always a question about like, economically, can mining be sustained going forward. Like, say, there's some sort of like, I don't know, some sort of massive coordinated government attack

that do whatever they want to try and crush the price of Bitcoin, then the miners, you know, would that hurt them? But then you have the difficulty adjustment. True. Yeah, there's mechanisms too. But there are certain scenarios where you can have like, there's like, I think

it almost happened. I think when Bitcoin was crashing from its like, the Mt. Gox high to like 200, like there's technical scenarios that you could imagine where the difficulty adjustment would, it would be like some sort of like spiraling self-fulfilling thing, the death spiral, so those

kind of things. So no, definitely it's corrective. I don't think it's quite malleable in that respect. But just from an engineering point of view, I think like, I think Bluemat actually talks about this quite a lot. If your listeners are not familiar with Bluemat,

you should definitely try and follow him on Twitter. He's like a Bitcoin core dev. But he did a lot of, he does a lot of work on trying to keep mining decentralized. Because mining, like when Bitcoin started, the idea was like one CPU, one vote. And then like Satoshi didn't anticipate pools. So,

you know, the protocol wasn't designed to be resilient to pools. So like, Bluemat has some better hat, which is trying to make pools more decentralized. But he basically gave this talk in San Francisco where he said that you really want to accept 200 confirmations.

200. Yeah, he kind of, I always go with the six. Yeah, well, I think he was like being an engineer. So again, it depends. But like he said, so you think he made an observation that a lot of the largest mining pools, the mining pools are kind of somewhat decentralized. But the security on the

mining pools pretty bad. So somebody can make a bot which hijacks the mining pools. And basically, 200 blocks was something like, yes, I made it that was like the amount of time it would take for the developers around the world to wake up and like make a hard fork, or make some sort of soft

fork to try and address it. But like, there's, I think there's a big issue in mining that if, of the mine, all the mining pools got compromised, because I think the protocol they were using was like very poor, and it didn't have proper authentication. So Blue Matt, he actually demonstrated he hacked,

I think he hacked, he hacked, whizzed his mining pool. He had the permission, but he showed how you could easily write a bot that would hack and take over. And then in a way, the mining might be decentralized, but because you kind of hacked the pools. So that's fixable. Obviously, they have

better, like, Blue Matt is working on better protocols, but there's all these, there's all these things. And then the question has Bitcoin really been attacked yet? Like, it's been attacked, but is it still so small? You know, have all the governments got to get and try to attack it, will they?

It's, but can they, if you look at the way that they operate, how well do they work together? No, like, yeah, I agree. Yeah, not. So it's kind of like, in theory, yes, but for them to actually work together, probably not. And how much is this on their radar? It must be to some extent,

but I don't think that it's almost like coming from a position of privilege. You don't know you need Bitcoin. It's the same coming from a position of privilege. You don't know quite how much of a threat it is to you. I think what's more likely to happen is rather than big governments attacking

it to embrace it, it's kind of like an arms race. Like, say that Russia starts to buy up Bitcoin. The states will start to buy up Bitcoin. Makes sense. So that's probably more likely to happen. I don't, I don't, you know, that would be good things. Then in a way, the incentives are there

that they wouldn't want it to fail because, you know, yeah, I'm pretty sure they're already in the way. Like, why wouldn't you? You can, you can print money at, well, anyway. Yeah, we're all hedging against a traditional system, because once you learn them, you actually start

to understand how the world really works. You go, oh shit, I bet a hedge. Yeah. So they built the system. They must in the same way that you're an engineer. So you understand what the risks are with Bitcoin. Yep. They're engineering their own system. They must see that this is a fucked

system. Like, there is serious problems. Let's hedge. They're just not going to tell anyone. Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't know. It's a bit too conspiratorial, but like, you know, obviously, the people, the politicians or the bankers, like, they know where, like, not to keep their money

in the traditional system, maybe, like, they don't have cash. I think that's one kind of on this learning curve, the idea. I think that's one of the differences between, say, like, poor and middle class or wealthy people, the idea that poor people don't realize you shouldn't

hold cash, because they don't really understand. No one's explained to them about, like, inflation and interest rates. I was joking with my brother. It would be great if you never see Ken Loach make a movie about interest rates or something, which is, in a way, it's probably arguably one of the

biggest things that makes a divide, that, like, rich people know not to keep their money in cash, as you said, they keep in assets. Yeah. And then you learn about compounding and you're like, well, I never did. Like, I kind of came from, like, Northern town, which is, like,

more working class. And it's very kind of, like, pureton. And it's the idea that, you know, like, don't waste money and just save all your pennies in a jar. And that's all my family and friends always done, you know, like, and you don't, you know, avoid death or anything. You just keep

your money on the mattress. And it makes sense when interest rates were, like, 1% inflation is low. But now when, like, all you're doing is just your money, it's just, it's, you know, it's been getting less and less, right? You know, and no idea about that concept until I

go into Bitcoin, the idea that you think, you know, what inflation interest rates were. It's just something that you hear about in other countries. But the idea that, I think one, I can't remember who said it, but the idea that if you wanted to give your grandchildren $1,000, how would you do it?

You wouldn't put $1,000 in a box. No. You know, it's going to be worth nothing. I think I found that coming back from Japan. Yeah, I actually had, when I came back to England from Japan, I asked them, like, pound coins. Apparently I can't use them anymore.

Because they didn't change the pound coin. I was like, four pounds, I'm like, oh, you can't use. But the same thing, like, how'd you give your grandchildren $1,000 and maybe gold? Yeah, sure. Yeah. But yeah, maybe, guys, I think Bitcoin, yeah, I've got a little bit set away,

which is just like, how do you give your grandchildren a different country $1,000? Maybe that's it. Yeah, a little bit harder. Yeah. Like you said, it's such it is, once you go down that rabbit hole and you start turning all these things, all your ideas are back. Your ideas are what you've been

told start to crumble away. You get to a point where you go, well, what's the, where's the truth? What's, what's real? We're like, yeah, I think it's not even that, not necessarily what you've been told. I think like what's intuitive to us is kind of like, you know, apes is not necessarily what's

true. And a lot of economics is counterintuitive and a lot of like, science is counterintuitive. So I think that idea, you just grow up with the idea that, you know, you are poor because somebody else is rich or something, right? Well, that kind of thing, you know, and then kind of just learning

about Bitcoin and just learning about kind of maybe question those ideas and, you know, coming from a physics, I don't know if you call it physics background, but you have an interest in physics, what's your thoughts on this kind of Bitcoin basically being like time and energy?

Do you have a sort of thought around it? I know it's a deep question, but my time and energy, if I have to convert it into something, I want it to be Bitcoin. I kind of see time and energy almost being Bitcoin, like it's almost like it's a, I guess it's really a question of entropy,

isn't it, right? Yeah. If you think about it, I guess it's just, I had to compute a science, right? And you have this concept of information theory, or so in a way, you can convert like mass to energy to time to information and information in a way is just, you know, like there's an

entropy, a things game random, right? Yeah. And you put energy to make things get organized, which you could argue is information. Yeah. And a Bitcoin in a way is finding a hash, which in a way is like organizing random energy and to find this one kind of organized hash.

So I kind of think the things are definitely convertible. And I think you kind of like, I think, like not necessarily a person's time or energy, but you hear a more direct use case about how power plants, right? They can mind Bitcoin when they're not selling the power in the way

they're converting that energy to value. Yeah. But it's not necessarily wasted that value can be released later as energy, right? It's, yeah. So especially when these power plants are in areas where they don't have a proper grid infrastructure, what do you do with it? Like,

it's going to go to waste. So you might as well convert it to some store of value. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I wrote an article recently on this because I had the last person I had on as a friend of mine who's in energy business. Oh, cool. And he goes to all the councils

and basically is trying to get them to go to solar. Yeah. And his original point, he was like, look, I love, he's one of the only people I've spoken to. He's like, I love the idea of Bitcoin.

I'm like, I love that he loves the scarcity. He's like, get it. You know, he's a switched on guy and he was just like, that makes sense. But he was like, I've got to be honest. I'm concerned about global warming and get Bitcoin in the planet. So I wrote an article literally for him,

you know, about this stuff. And that was one of my points was, firstly, if you pay for energy, same as like Bitcoin, if you pay to use it, it's valid. And if you've paid for energy, use it on what you want. And also the fact that these miners can go anywhere in the world and use

that energy that would otherwise go to waste helps them then expand quicker, especially when it's over and things like that. So in my mind, if everyone switched across, it would be so much more efficient than the system. I think it's a much more complicated than the idea that any one

thing will kill or fix the planet. It's like, I think the concept that if we just stop doing X, we'll stop global warming. Our system is way more complicated than that. And I think the whole only gets addressed by, you know, like innovation and technology moving forward rather than going

backwards, you know, this kind of, yes, I let's all just go and just live on a farm. And yeah, this crazy kind of like extreme opinion that, you know, we just undid the industrial revolution.

We'd all be like, yeah, living like Pocahontas or, you know, like, what's that one in? There were the planets, like a Pocahontas rip off. Avatar. Avatar. Yeah. They're making a new one. And they are, yeah, yeah. I was probably a good film, but yeah. I think it's kind of

sidetracked. It's kind of goes through a, it's like, I think there's, there's two schools of thought that's like this, it's Hobbes and Rousseau. And this idea that most young people, most people are Rousseau. Especially nowadays, the idea that you are nature is kind of perfect, kind of harmonious

thing, you know, like Pocahontas or Avatar, like like Fern Gully, you remember that movie. And like the man in civilization is corrupting it. And we just need to kind of get rid of ourselves or reverse it and go back and we'll be fine. Nature is brutal. Well, that's the Hobbes in the

view. It's like, no, you know, man and nature were horrible and it's brutal and man is horrible. The only thing that makes anything okay is civilization and technology, right? You know, it's kind of the battle between the two. So every time I kind of hear this idea and I kind of like

Bitcoin is going to kill the planet, it comes from a Rousseauian kind of line of thinking. Well, I think a lot of kind of Bitcoiners generally have more of a Hobbesian line of thinking. Yeah. And probably the answer is probably a bit of both of us. I don't want to like say either all

of that was kind of, but people don't realize that they think something because they went, they listened to somebody on YouTube or they went to a university and you can trace like all these back to this guy called Rousseau, like a philosopher. And it's like capitalism was amazing like years

ago. Nobody had any issue with it. And it's just like a kind of a recent thing that I think is quite a young thing. And when I say young, I don't mean in age, I mean, as in, I almost see time as like the more battle you've done and the more shit you've gone through and the more life is thrown at

you, the more you start to realize the world's brutal. Yeah. You got to take responsibility for yourself. Yeah. Nature's brutal. Yeah. Everything comes down to you. You have like this ideology, like I always used to think of another show and goes like, Oh, I can't everyone just have

money and we all just share and we'll just look after each other. And then I lived. And then I was like, fuck, life's hard. I just got to look after myself. And if I can look after myself enough to be in a position where I can look after others thing, right? You've got to look after yourself

first, but until you've sort of been smacked in the face enough times, then you're like, you go to that. Yeah, that's like, life is comfortable nowadays. So, you know, people don't realize like this, you know, especially in like growing up in like middle class England, right?

Yeah. But yeah, I've got a similar story. I kind of, I think I was, I lived, I was in Australia. And then like, it just, I think it's a very small thing, but I had it. I didn't have a job.

This is before working with her. Before going to Bitcoin. Yeah. So I went to Australia. I didn't have a job. I had like a idea. I was going to stay at this, like this guy's house, but I literally, before I boarded the plane, kind of bailed on me. I was like, Oh, I'm getting on the plane. I've got

going to Australia and I've got nowhere to live. Oh, no. And I just kind of landed. I had some like money in my bank, but I let it okay. I've got to find a job and find a place to live. And I'm in a foreign country. I can't just like go to the government and get welfare, right? Or something,

you know, you know, and, you know, my parents weren't particularly rich or anything. I think they'd probably always be there, but it's difficult way in a foreign country. Yeah. This idea that, but it's kind of nice, the idea that, you know, it's, I was like, happy to get,

I was so happy to get any work, you know, just to work in like, also playing for like restaurants and stuff. And, you know, just to get anything. And I was like, so happy I could tune a beans. And that life is probably compared to somebody in like, say, Venezuela is like luxury, right?

Yeah, that's all. Yeah, exactly. So kind of imagine, you know, I even have moments now when I go, I just, it's like a small thing, but sometimes I just get amazed when I turn my tap on running water. It's crazy. You know, when you're mind of these things, we take it, we do take it. They're

grounded. But yeah, sometimes you have to just stop and be like, it's Marcus or, or Rayleigh, as I think is one of his stoic philosopher King Roman, I had this thing where like, what he would do is he, it's like a practice where you envision, you just imagine a horrible life. Yeah, you imagine,

I don't know, your family have got cancer or something and you're starving. You try and feel that. And then you, oh, it's like waking up from a bad dream, you know, it's kind of a good practice, not to do it all the time, but now and then if you have, you know, it's a good practice to do.

Well, sometimes life just reminds you anyway. Yeah, because I'm going to choice. I'll catch myself sometimes like the most ridiculous stuff because we do, especially in this country, we come from a position of privilege and I do catch myself like, I'll, I'll go to the shop and then, if I

come, want to go, I don't know, buy some salmon or something like that. And I'm like, ah, if I can have any salmon, back, say, and like, in my head for a second, I'm like really annoyed and I just think, shut up, you dickhead. Like just, and the same thing, think about the same thing. I went to

the supermarket with my, with my mother a few weeks ago and I was in the supermarket and I'd have like this moment of like, look at all these big, too many choices of everything. Like it's like five different brands of flour or something, right? It's just crazy. And I was like, just had like

a moment of appreciation. And on the way out, my dad called my mother on the phone and my mother said, ah, as Chris, there was nothing in the supermarket. We had a very different moment, right?

Obviously, like, she's never lived in like, I don't know, say, like, you know, Soviet Romania or something, or wherever it was, you know, something where like, there's no stories of people who fled Romania and went to America. I think there's one story where this guy, he went to America from

Romania and he called his mother to come over. And this is when I think Romania, I think it was Romania or Albania, but at times I get like Soviet, then it became a dictatorship. It wasn't a nice place. They went over and the son picked the mother up from the airport. And he was like,

he was a limo driver. That's what he his job was. He was a driver. And like, he drove it to the supermarket. And the mother just like broke down crying in the supermarket. And like, they lied to us, you know, like, the people in Romania. And then she was just shocked that her son,

who was a driver, could shop here. If you had a similar story in England, there was some like, Soviet kind of like, Soviet guy who came over. He went to Harriet's or something. Yeah, it was like his son. And he saw his son must be a member of the Communist or the party in England.

Right. In his country, only the party men that's get to shop here. It's like, no, anybody can shop here. You know, this is crazy. We don't realize it. We can only imagine. Yeah. We can only imagine. We can only imagine what happened again. So,

yeah. Yeah. That's the only thing a lot of Bitcoiners do have this dystopian idea of how the world is going to go. And I'm sort of somewhere in the middle. I'm like, I'm sort of, I'm prepared in my head for it. But I try and think positively in terms of people who embrace sound money.

Governments will get smaller. People will start to like a big thing for me with Bitcoin. One of the things that really clicked for me being a, and I don't hate the word entrepreneur, but someone who likes to start businesses and explore different ideas. One of the big things for me and really

pissed me off for a long time, for a long time. It was red tape and regulation. Oh, yeah. How'd that now? Yeah. And it's so bad. And I got to a stage. I remember sitting and having a conversation by years ago with someone before I knew about Bitcoin, and I'd gone worried about

cash and worried about us losing that. You know, that's getting more and more difficult to use, to be accepted or be able to take every time we go to the bank that allows me a question. And, you know, every time I have an idea and I look into it, I've got to have

solicitors involved, patenting involved, and whatever we do, we're regulated into the ground, especially with dental practices. I spent half of my time filling out paperwork, not dealing with patients. And it was nonsense. Like absolutely. It's not even effective, right? It's just shit.

So I got to a stage where I got really down about it. And I was just like, the world for someone who's entrepreneurial is dead, and unless you're a multi-millionaire already. And my view is, rather than just going to forward somebody else, but somebody breaking in, trying to break in.

Yeah. Someone, someone who has little but smart and has good ideas, everything stacked against them. Yeah. And my view with Bitcoin is like it just levels that playing a bit. Yeah, it's like, as a crypto startup, obviously we see Barry as, you know,

we, you know, especially like some of the regulations coming in, right? So it's definitely, it's annoying, right? And, you know, while the government's still there, while they still stand, it's hard.

If they get smaller and smaller and smaller. There was a clue more global as well, right? So, you know, you can be based in a different state, for example, a lot more easier than before. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why, again, I'm a more of a small government proponent, right? It's

much easier. If you don't like the regulation in one place, you go to another smaller government, right? Yeah. What Switzerland apparently does this well? Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, like a lot of different states in Switzerland, but each one is quite autonomous and has its

own. So if you don't like one place, you can move. Have you guys looked into something like that, or are you sort of managing okay to do the things you need to do? Or is it okay? But, you know, we obviously am so recently, what happened, one of our, I guess, contemporary companies, like, boom,

a fellow lightning startup had recently closed down because of regulation, bottle pay. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's because like a new law that's coming in, forced them to KYCP or something. It's a bit gray. That's the thing. I think I don't want to speak

for them. But I think my understanding is that the lawyers weren't sure if what they were doing was okay. And they, you know, they, they, they live in the UK and they have families in the UK.

So they could have all like, up sticks and move somewhere else. But they, I think they, they chose just, I don't think they're going away forever. No, they've just said for now. Just for now, they just don't want to do anything in this time that would get them like arrested

or something, right? You know, it's want to play it safe. It's crazy, isn't it? Yeah. And, you know, and that's, you know, luckily we're okay at Zebedee. I think, you know, also being non-custodial helps a lot. I think the time bottle pay were completely custodial. So that's why they were a bit more

anxious. But yeah, just, it's, you know, it's a pain, right? Any small small business wanting to start. The whole idea with this regulation is supposed to be protects people and protect the businesses.

But if you believe in like free markets, if something's a shit idea, it will die. And if you do things that are going to cause problems to the people who are using your service, they'll leave and they're going to a competitor. So like we're saying, nature is warfare.

From the second you wake up in nature, like it's just warfare. It's the same with business. And if you're going to provide a bad service or do something that's bad to your customers, natural law, just self-regulate. I think, you know, something like, again, like if, for example,

if something like the EU becomes a bit, if its regulation increases, you'll probably see like, there's no massive tech companies in the EU. There's a reason for that. I've ever heard, you know, Thomas Sol, have you ever heard his work? I've heard the name, I haven't.

Yeah, he's a famous kind of like conservative thinker. But he kind of makes this point. Yeah, that's his good thing on regulation. It's quite interesting. I'm not saying it's true, but it at least makes you think this idea that, I think in America, you didn't have to have a seat

for a baby on an airplane. You actually hold the baby. That was okay before. What happened one time is there was a crash, like the turbulence and the guys holding the baby and the baby died, right? Because it didn't hold it. So they put regulation that the babies must have their own

seat and must be strapped in. Sounds fine, right? You know, that makes safe, you know, the baby won't down the plane. But the consequences were that more babies died. And the reason is, now you say you've got a family and you want to go on holiday, mum and dad and a baby,

but now you've got to buy an extra seat. So what people started doing in America, they said, okay, well, we won't take the plane anymore. We'll just drive instead. Yeah. And that kind of unintended consequence actually led to more babies dying because driving is much more

dangerous than the one baby who died on that plane. So there's all these things as regulation. Anyway, it creates more paperwork and more costs, but it doesn't necessarily, I'm not saying all regulations bad, but just like really nearly just slapping regulation on without the consequences.

And once you add regulation, you can't repeal it as easy. So it's... And it always saying like keeps people down because the big businesses can afford the regulation. Bring it back to dentistry. We only have two practices. The businesses where they had 50, 60, 100, they'd have

someone who just dealt with the regulations. So they had someone who'd just sit in a box tick and make sure you had four different mops that were all color coded and some of the stuff it was called CQC Care Quality Commission. Not close quarters combat. Yeah. Similar. And it was

nonsense. So like someone like me, I went from being able to talk to all the customers and make sure that I gave them a personal service, make sure that I could then speech the dentist and make sure that nothing was missed. So I could then make sure that I took them across to the desk and

make sure that everything was a really nice and good experience and nothing was missed too. I was sat in my office 12 hours a day filling out paperwork about fucking mops. Yeah. And what the regulators didn't see was, okay, firstly, the service quality has gone down, but also the cost

to the business, because I was converting more sales and upselling whitening or this and that, because I was having time to speak to them, it was affecting us financially. And we couldn't afford, because we're only small, to have someone just deal with the regulation, which meant that

we suddenly can't compete. So then the big businesses come and buy the small businesses and then all you end up with is like, yeah. But that's what happens across every sector and they cry out for more regulation. I think David Starkey is like a famous historian. He's kind of a

... I went to a talk to him. He made the point that it's the problem that nowadays being a politician or an MP is a job, before it wasn't a job, you had another job, an MP you do something for free. But now it's your job, that's your job. You're expected to make laws or something, right?

You have a big civil servant or big government. They're not going to do nothing. They're going to come up with ideas and regulation. That's what they do, right? So it keeps growing. I think there's that law that some people want passing that for every regulation you add, you must repeal

two or something, right? Or repeal one or there's some sort of balancing thing. You can get that in a constitution or something. I don't know. Because a lot of them are just mental. I'm sure like, I would like regulation on nuclear power plants, for example. I'm kind of okay with that,

right? But just like small businesses who are like, cut hair or something, you don't need it. There's plenty of competition that you can see. And that's kind of what you have on the internet, that they're trying to squash, but you have that in a way. That's the idea of small government,

because I don't necessarily want no government. If you want to, you can just go to Somalia, right? Yeah. I think the thing is you can't have no government, because there'll always be a gang that would make itself the de facto government. That's how I kind of see it, right?

Well, they are. That's what they are. Yeah. Well, in a way, but it's kind of like, a small government is the least worst gang you can have. It's somewhat we can change them, right? That's the idea. Yeah. And they have a constitution to limit their power. And if you just said,

the obvious stuff that almost everyone agrees with, don't kill, don't steal, the basic what I guess is like libertarianism. Oh, God, I should do, right? Yeah. Just kind of don't force property rights for people. Also, I don't know. No, like saying like hairdressers, don't go and shut down a

business that's been running for 30 years cutting hair, because they don't have a certificate for some shit, where they've every single customer who's gone there for the last 30 years is really happy. There'll be one customer who gets like tetanus, because they use a rusty scissors.

Yeah. Sure, that's a bad thing. Yeah. But even if you had regulation, you'd probably get that for whether they still get it. And then so, and then those small businesses close down, you get a super cuts instead. And like as a personal, so, yeah, self regulation is the thing.

And then just pay for, you know, we want some form of like police, but don't go and arrest someone and put them in prison for. Again, that's why I liked it. I think Japan is one of the countries they did policing very well. It has its issues, but they have this idea like,

you know, Bobby's on the beat. So in Japan, they don't really have a massive police station. They have all these small police boxes, which is, it's like a box, which fits about two policemen in. Right. And you've got a desk, and they're just scattered throughout the town. So that's a much

better thing than say CCTV. Anything that we have all these CCTV cameras watching you, but they actually just have physical policemen in the location. So there's always a presence, but it's just like two, like a policeman sitting on a desk with a truncheon. It's not like,

it doesn't feel like a police state, as it were. London to me feels like that now. Yeah, completely. Like it's one of them, isn't it? The most surveilled. Yeah, see, we have CCTV. Yeah, I don't worry about England, but then hopefully I can, you know,

maybe I'm just, because I'm British, I think there's that there are things now and then I think English people generally have the concept of self sovereignty. I think in them, which makes us a bit stubborn as now, but hopefully that will always prevail. But I do worry about,

I don't know, I go into London, like there's CCTV everywhere, and there's people roaming around with assault rifles and stuff, and like terrorism, right? Yeah, yeah. It doesn't make me feel more certain at all. Like, I'm thinking if a terrorist wants to do something, they're going to do something,

like they'll find a way, they're going to find a way, and having all the CCTV and all this stuff, I think it just impacts the lives of everyone else. I feel uncomfortable. As soon as I go in there, I get that same amount of palms as wearing, I just feel like horrible in England, like,

watched and feel like I'm in 1994. And as soon as I stepped up, it was ink sock, wasn't it? English socialism. Yeah, I think England's always had that kind of battle, like, it's always had like a kind of a socialist streak fighting with the capitalist, and that's kind of how a political

system works in the way we go, like, labor to conservative, but even the Conservative Party of recent years, it's kind of not really like sovereign. No, definitely not. I don't know. I don't know, I don't want to, I hope maybe that this current conservative party, like, obviously, they're not

perfect by any means, but I know there's a few people there who I know actually are quite, you know, on the same page when it comes to libertarianism. So it's compared to the previous one, for example, you know, but who knows, right? At the end of the day, the politicians, right? Yeah, exactly,

exactly. So moving forward with your business and your plan and stuff, you were saying yesterday, about trying to get these other developers onto the platform, that's really what the idea is.

Is there other than you would, obviously, doing what was the next meetup you're doing? Oh, well, advancing Bitcoin is the main advantage. There's a lot of meetups around that, advancing Bitcoin is amazing. Doing a workshop there. Outside of that, like, is if you've got a sort of plan of

how to reach out to people who maybe don't know about Bitcoin, but they came developers, how is it spreading and how are you pulling these people in? Is there sort of... Yeah, well, I guess, initially, obviously, we just want to grab the low-hanging fruit, which are like Bitcoin-interested

game developers. And there are a few of them around, so we're going to kind of grab them first. But yeah, of course, we want to try and attract kind of like all game developers. So we're actually going to start... I can't list the conferences and workshops are going to be around Bitcoin-focused

events. But then eventually, we're going to start attending some of the non-Bitcoin gaming events and test the waters. Like I said, I think if you speak to most game developers at the moment, they're not interested in Bitcoin. And the reason is they need to kind of see an action. So that's

why we're developing these games that kind of showed them, "Look, did you know you could do this in your game? You can have this concept of sponsors who put ads in them, from those ads, you can play or play as Bitcoin and not play your game more because of getting Bitcoin or you can have this

concept of esports where the audience is participating." Another thing is that we kind of at the moment, we probably... We want to try and work with one or two smaller studios and really make a good game with the idea of being... If we can help them with the Bitcoin side, they make a real good

Bitcoin experience. And that game studio is a proper game studio, so they can make a real good game. We just get one game that kind of becomes popular and people start to make a lot of money with Bitcoin. I think then you'll see the other game developers jump in. They just need to see

it happen first. But I have one to... Yeah, so I think that's personally, you know, we're speaking to some game companies. We've got a lot of interest, actually, just from these last few months, so at the moment, we're just trying to... Because we only just started in October, so we're still

building the SDKs and APIs, getting them ready. But yeah, but that's the plan is to try and kind of work with some game studios and also with our own game just to make some games and get them out there and show Lothis is working. People are playing these games. My indie games before with Bitcoin

had a very high retention rate because of just... People would play the game because it would pay them stats or pay them Bitcoin. So we just need to get that out there and get the data. As soon as your game launches, I'll be back into gaming. I want to go and earn some stats.

Sure, yeah. For sure. Everyone knows I know who's interested in Bitcoin as well, but exactly the same. It's such a cool idea. I think stacking stats, I think the whole idea, not even gaming, but I think like, fold that, for example. The idea that you just go grocery

shopping and you get stats back instead of cash back. I think that's a good way to onboard people, especially in countries like England where people don't necessarily want to use Bitcoin to pay for things. But people want to get free Bitcoin, why not? It's better than a reward point.

I think you have to sign up for a fold. I thought it was a tri-lolly or lolly. I remember when it first came out, so it actually came out back in 2014. Yeah, I remember it came out, you could buy Starbucks with it. I was using it to buy Starbucks,

but then the whole kind of scaling and on-chain, they kind of closed down. Now they've come back with lightning. But at the moment, I think it's a waiting list. So it's in trial. You have to put your name down on the waiting list, but I'm sure they're going to release at some point.

Because I just literally this morning signed up for that TravelX card, which does the same stats. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like 1.5% lag in stats every time you buy it. Yeah. Makes sense. No brain. I've literally just signed up for it today because I do a lot of

driving. And for me, I'm just constantly filling up. So I'm just like, if I'm doing that and I'm spending the stats, sorry, I'm getting the stats back. Yeah. So exciting. It might only be a small amount, but rewards points. And there's no risk as well, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that

that's what brought people in, the games and the stats back. Like I said, we can do similar thing with gaming. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of it's a no brainer. So hopefully we'll be bringing that out soon. Awesome. But listen, I'm conscious on time because I'll waffle on all day and take

up your entire day. For the listeners and for potentially any game developers who might be listening, how do they get in contact with you? How do we learn more about these games and how do we get in touch? Easiest way would just be to follow us on Twitter. That's Zebedee,

the spelling is Z-E-B-E-D-E-I-O. So, okay. Zebedee-I-O. I'm sure I'll just read the show notes. The link will be there. Yeah. Yeah. And I think follow us on Twitter and then from Twitter, you can find our website. Yeah. I'll grab all your details. Yeah. But feel free to drop us a message or email

us. Happy to talk to anybody. People who want to make games. Awesome. Listen, thank you so much for coming down. I thank you for having me. I enjoyed it a lot. I was really excited when you were one of the first people who's come on the show and I really wanted to get you on. I know. As soon as

you wrote back, I was like, I've got to go and see you. I was really excited to introduce you to other people. If you want some, yeah, I think advancing Bitcoin is going to be loads of people in town. So, maybe you can grab a few people. Awesome. Well, I'll get myself down there. But

no, I really appreciate you coming. No, no. Thanks for the biscuits. Yeah, my pleasure. My pleasure. All right. Fantastic. I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll just leave it wrong. I'll just, it's funny.

I enjoyed that. Good. No. That's kind of casual kind of thing. Yeah. That's the idea. I want it to be casual and not too interviewing. To be honest, a lot of it's just for me. I really love just me and people are just learning more about this space. Yeah. I think the best podcast I listened to

that I enjoyed the most of the ones where they'll kind of sidetrack on like random stuff. You know, I think it's a nice format because there's so much. There's so many different links with it.

Almost just just talking technical or just talking about the economics or just everything comes back to money, really. Yeah, it does. Everything links back to money. But for me, like starting this podcast was I can't talk to people in normal life anymore. Have you betrayed? Well, I just don't

mention it. Like, like, if people ask me what I do, I say I'm a programmer. But I used to say Bitcoin and then it comes with all these connotations and then you have to explain what Bitcoin is.

Then before you know it, you're like, just like, you know, people like, you're that big boy and like, no one cares. And ask you about should I buy Ripple or something? Yeah, you sit down for two hours. You're like, right, this is why it's going to change the world. This is what's wrong with our

current system, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, awesome, awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So XRP. The people will say stuff. I give the price to go, hey, not doing so well. I'll eat crystal. I'll leave these snide comments. I have a few friends who like it. Like, you know, if somebody brings it

up, then I'm off like a rabbit, right? You know, I don't really. When I first started, I used to just like, yeah, I was the same, use a credit card. Yeah, I was just like, I was just talk to every, because I genuinely believe this can help the world. Like, I really, I wouldn't be doing it

otherwise. I don't earn any money out of doing this. I give up other work where I'll be earning money so that I can do this. And if I have a lot more money, if I stayed in banking or something.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's the reason I'm doing it. So I used to talk to everyone about it because I believe in it, but no one wants to listen. And so then I went all quiet about it. And I thought, well, I really do want to talk to people about this. And speaking to people who know much

more than I do in certain areas is just, how have you been into it? Don't worry. I've been two, two and a half years, something like that. Like, I've only ever really seen a bear market. Oh, so well, so I first learned it was after it went to 20k kind of that. Yeah.

So I'd heard about it. Maybe I watched that show on Russell Brick and what had happened with him. The other one made by a Bill and Ted guy. Yeah, it was cool. Now it's about three, four years ago. I watched it. And I watched that and I was like, okay, that's kind of interesting. But like, didn't really think anything about it. And I was

so busy with other work and just didn't dig into it. And then that bull market happened. And on Facebook and everything, everyone's talking about it. And so I have a friend who's been on here crypto Tony. And he was talking about it. And I reached out to trust the guy, like really,

really smart and really down to earth bloke. So I reached out to him and I just said, look, mate, let's catch up for dinner. I want to ask you a couple of questions. So I said, what is this Bitcoin thing? Like, what's going on? And he explained it to me and along with all the other

shitcoins and everything else. And yeah, it just clicked for me because I do come from all of that libertarian leaning like, yeah, probably like a kind of like a business kind of guy, right? Yeah, but I always, I always had that kind of like, fuck authority. Like, I'll just do what I want.

Yeah, the idea that like, you can't own your own money as permission to send somebody like, if you said that about information, it's like, what, it's like North Korea, right? Yeah, exactly. We're perfectly fine to have it on money, which is like, in a way, it's your,

it's my energy value. Yeah, yeah. I was talking about physics, like, it's my energy, my time. I've used my energy in my time, which is fine. I to get something, no one else controls it. And so that very quickly sent me down the rabbit hole. It was just like, once it clicked. Yeah, I mean,

obviously go around talking to everyone and then it just, yeah, you have to just, you get to a point, you have to just shut up. You have to just shut up and, and it doesn't, it's not helpful in a way.

You kind of just have to like, you know, rather than talking about it, just like, or have to use it and demo it and show use cases. Yeah. And then I got, I got kind of like lonely because I was like, no, I was, you know, reading through Twitter and like, reading all the articles

and listening to all the podcasts and had no one to talk to about it. And I was just like, right, well, what can I do? Like, how do I get to speak to people who I can learn from? And also, because I have my anxieties and like, I didn't really want to leave my house or speak to anyone,

I was like, well, what's going to force me out of that? Because it's about like the Bitcoin world, just like, even from just the social aspect, like Bitcoin, like, there's no one in Bitcoin, it's not approachable. And you find out that you have friends all over the world.

Yeah. Every time I go to a country, you just kind of find a local Bitcoin. I'll know somebody from Twitter in that country. I'll be like, I'm going to Spain, like, oh, one of my Twitter followers, hey, let's meet up. And you've got like someone who you know, you can have a good conversation

within any country, but even just like, you know, like, say that I also like to play guitar, but, you know, I'm never going to speak to Eric Clapton or something, right? With Bitcoin, you know, I just remember, like, you know, buying Tokyo and like, you know, Peter Weller walks, you know,

yeah, he just walks in like shit, you know, I was like, so starstruck, but he's taught. How do you pronounce his name? I always say it's Peter Weller, Peter Weller. People say, well, I feel like I was weller. I did ask him at one point. Okay. But I forgot what he said.

Yeah, he's a really interesting guy. Yeah, no, I remember just speaking to him was one of the reasons because he came, it was weird because he came to Nikola Dorei, bought him to the Bitcoin meetup and Roger wasn't there at the time. But like, nobody, he just walked in and I thought,

I'm never going to be able to talk to him. Yeah, but just like, just went to the bar by himself. And no one spoke to him. Those went over. And then like, a few weeks later, Vitalik came, like fucking this mat, he couldn't get in the door, you know, it's weird. But, you know, he's like,

it's like a, like a guy, he's, he's, he's a, he's a work horse. He's a really smart guy. Actually, if I like Luke Dash Jr. was probably the interesting guy. You know, yeah, I've heard a few interviews with him. Yeah, he's like a kind of autistic servant kind of,

he'd like Peter Weller. He wouldn't be an interesting character in a movie, for example. Right. It's a good engineer and he's smart, he's clever, but you know, I mean, he's, he's, but Luke Dash Jr is like this crazy kind of like super fundamentalist Catholic who anti-vaxxer,

but he's also like a super, you know, super smart genius when it comes to programming. But then he would put like Catholic scripture in, in his Bitcoin transaction. I feel like I ended up in Tokyo with him just like watching at an anime party, watching an

anime with him, about school girls, Japanese school girls going camping. And it's just as weird, like, like this is the guy who's responsible. He made the first ever mining pour, right? Oh, it's quite interesting. It seems like he's hugely respected. Oh, he's like, he's very,

he's very nice and polite. Yeah. He's like, because he's, I think he's like, um, very religious, so he comes up like a religious decency kind of thing, right? Yeah. You know, but on Twitter, some of his interviews can be quite extreme. But that's the good thing about like Bitcoin. It's like,

you know, you welcome people that you're not offended talking to anybody with extreme views, because you yourself are kind of extreme, right? You know, is it one of his views is something like, oh, 90% of people have to run and know it otherwise. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, no,

he thinks the block size should be smaller. Yeah. That's the other thing. Well, to be honest, technically, if the block size was smaller, it would solve a lot of problems. Right. One of the issues now is like, for example, say you have a block side of like a hundred kilobatt,

you could kind of just have this, I, because currently you kind of need the internet to use Bitcoin and blockchain. We're trying to get around that by transmitting a blockchain block. But what you could do is a block size of small enough you could use like low frequency radio.

Okay. Like almost like streaming TV, single thing. You know, as you can kind of stream it, but the block size stops that and, but I mean, they're, I assume this counter-hard means happen as a percentage of the most developers think the most developers think the blocks

actually will be smaller. I think they probably don't mind too much. They think it's definitely not bigger. The issue is it not means the issue is not with it being small. Smaller issue is like, how you make it smaller. The idea that like, you know, who's going to make that decision and you

have to hard for or, you know, right. And I think the consensus says, well, let's just try to manage it and just trying to improve second layer. And there is going to be a block size increase at some point, probably maybe it's hard to know, but like, like most developers are not opposed and actually

people have made proposals like even Bitcoin call developers may propose. It's like, how, how should we do this? But the issue isn't so much the block size. It's about like who decides that.

And if you do it on a hard fork, then which one's a real Bitcoin, right? Yeah, it'd be nice if we could avoid it. Well, I think no, we're going to have to have a hard fork at some point. It's like hard forks. It depends hard forks are needed, for example, to fix an emergency

bug. But there's definitely a hard fork needed, because there's a bug in the code where inflation bug or something they found recently. Oh, that was like a bug. But that didn't require a hard fork. Yeah. Another reason why Bitcoin development should be more conservative. It's going

too fast already. But but no, there's a bug that I'm not sure if you know much about programming, but if you have like a data type, I've tried, I'm learning, like, you know, an integer type is, right? Yeah. You get different size in integers. Yeah. I see if you use like JavaScript, that's

all kind of hidden from you. But if you something like C, you have to choose, like, you're going to have a 16 by integer, or like a 16, you know, there's different lengths, basically, how much memory you get. And if you, you know, you want to store very, very big numbers, and the integer is going

to run out of spaces, the one that's chosen, you know, so we're going to have to upgrade that to a different type, which would require a hard fork. You know, so that's not, that's a non contention card box, right? Okay. You know, you're not, you just kind of, we don't fix it sick. Yeah, isn't it?

It's all. Yeah. But there's also hard folks, like some people have started toying with the idea, because some people are concerned that, you know, once the mining wards dropped, Bitcoin price isn't what we hope it is. Mine is, why aren't we paid? So some people have, like, dared to toy

with the idea of adding inflation. You know, I don't think I'll ever get through from my personal opinion, and coming from a non technical background, if they introduce inflation. Yeah, they couldn't.

And I agree, they couldn't, but to any degree, no matter how small a thing. But I guess the argument is if Bitcoin dies, if you don't do it, I'm still, I'm still out, right? Like just for me, because that's one of, for me, the most important things is like, once you introduce it this much,

true. I agree. I think I don't think you can't introduce it now. But if you could start Bitcoin from scratch, I think the issue was not that we're against inflation, we're against the idea inflation that can just be arbitrarily decided, right? So say that Bitcoin just had this idea that,

you know, it would only ever be a small amount of inflation. If it was from the start, people wouldn't, because that's like bankers or whatever couldn't, or the Fed couldn't, like, abuse that, you know, that was, but I agree. I think what'll probably happen is you'll, I think there'll be

some like better shit coins that will come out. If that makes any sense, if we're ever going to, if we need, if Bitcoin's not enough, we'd have some sort of like side chain technology or something that would try and compensate for that. Yeah, that, that, like liquids a bit like that, right?

Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I could deal with that. Especially state change, which I mentioned, if that ever comes out, that would be pretty cool as well. A more trustless version. So I think that's probably what, and I think as privacy tech increases, we'll get like side changes

has become more and more trustless. That's kind of like liquid. Liquid's pretty cool for that, isn't it? A lot of people. Well, it gets away with being centralized because it has a good privacy.

Yeah. So be it. Yeah, the idea because you use these confidential assets and stuff. Obviously, it's more centralized because it's not, it's like, basically, it's like federated. Yeah. It doesn't matter because they can't see what the transaction, so there's less information

for them to censor you in a way. I think there will just be more and more of these options that just, yeah, say side changes and things that, through it, definitely makes sense. Is there anybody else who won't get on the podcast, but I don't need to believe mine.

Do I have another one? I didn't think I was going to get on that. Yeah, I'm going to have a shot on Monday, on then. Which I'm really excited about. And outside of that, I've got some

beaters out, but it's still very new for the podcast. So everyone's making power when you're in it, but like it's not the big one. Yeah. I don't have like a specific list of write, write, these, the type of people, it's just anyone who's involved in this.

I know there's many as I can because it does make it very interesting. This is very critical, really. It's just cool. You know, I'll have a chat on my number before then. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Can I make your coffee for the first? No. No, no, no. So you, yeah, you've got anyone you know who could maybe be interested in coming on, if you'd like to know what you're doing for sure.

So, yeah, probably I think it's probably a good number of dollars. Yeah. I've got to go. I've got to go. Yeah, I don't know how I can do this at all, but I'll bet that one. Please.