EP16 Bitcoin podcast with Alex Beasant.

Welcome back to the bit by bit podcast. In today's episode, I speak with Alex Bessent. Alex is an investor in early stage technology companies and has a background in property. We both strongly believe Bitcoin to be the best investment on the planet.

However, we disagree on a long-term viability of projects like Ethereum, Maker and other DeFi projects in the space. It's always good to hear a different opinion and I always love chatting to Alex. I hope you enjoy.

Hi everyone, hi Max. Thanks for having me on. Super excited to be here. Talk all things crypto, Bitcoin might throw in some kind of blockchain stuff, which might annoy some of the listeners. But it's going to be looking forward to it.

For the listeners, can you just give us a bit of your background, what you do at the moment, outside of blockchain? Sure. I guess my background's kind of mixed, but there's always been a market's financial angle to it. Various things in a professional

capacity through to basically financial markets, some trading stuff early on, some investing stuff, did some real estate stuff again in the investment side, and then transitioned to do more tech investment, but also tech delivery, so building financial digital products,

and then doing quite a lot in the blockchain space at the moment. Mainly from an enterprise blockchain perspective, but then personally I invest a lot into the private blockchain space, but what I think is the more interesting startup space. Basically, that's where I'm at now.

I've got a few things in the pipeline. I'm interested in doing a few things entrepreneurial in the space. I think this is our opportunity, in terms of our generation's opportunity to get in and invest in the space. When I say invest, that could be financially,

that could be through human capital. There's a number of ways in which you can invest in the space. For me, I'm trying to gear my personal and professional life 100% in the space, because I think the risk is in not doing it versus doing it. A lot of people look at you or look at me,

and they've said, "What are you doing? What are you putting your money and all your time into this thing? What happens if it goes wrong, or it goes to zero or whatever?" It's not even what if. It's like when it. Yeah, exactly. I think it's changing slightly. I still think people are

kind of getting it or I've heard of it now. I think people are still super apprehensive. For me, I look at it like I'm at the kind of a weir of the age, I guess, where we missed the internet boom, and we missed the chance to invest in that, and the growth that happened there.

I look at my current situation. Properties are ridiculously high. I know we've discussed this before. We've both got kind of backgrounds in property and wrestling investing. We've always weirdly had a very similar trajectory. Randomly, "Oh, I suppose we're getting on. I'll just text

you." We'll always tend to be roughly on the same lines. It'd be like, "Oh, I'm looking at investment properties, buy it to let. Oh, let's meet. I can have a coffee, and let's chat about that."

I've started investing in Bitcoin. Oh, yes, sir. We always tend to be along somehow the same lines. Yes, it's interesting because obviously, I think we are introduced by Pruey Hamza, who's a close friend of ours, who's going to move abroad. If you listen to this

shout out to Hamza, great guy. Also, Paul Bloght. You haven't written back about my wedding invitation. Paul from you, but yes, still lots of love. Get back to us. Yes, it's funny because I think we have a similar outlook on life.

I must say, we're weird, but I think we are slightly different in the way that we look at things. I'm going to argue a good way. I think we both look at things from a more macro, larger-scale perspective. I know we're both super interested in markets and cycles and stuff like

that. I was coming back to my earlier point. I look at my life at the moment, and I think, right, where am I going to put some money in my personal time? I left the real estate stuff because I thought we have that boom and that bust. I think those golden years are gone.

There's obviously always markets that are more bullish and others and some are more bearish, but we see those returns in real estate. Stocks are at record highs. Stocks are at record highs, but then if you look at bonds, government bonds are negative. US dollar is making new highs,

golds making new highs. All of these risk-off assets are making new highs, yet so are stocks, which is super weird. I think there's going to be some really, I think people are going to look back in 10, 20 years and they're going to look at the financial crisis and they're going to look

at this and they're going to think those were some weird times. I've been negative on stocks for a while now, but I wouldn't be shorting them just because I think it's the pain trade, but I certainly wouldn't be buying them. I think they're crazy right now.

Yeah, it's one of those timing. Timing it is the impossible thing. I hope we've both been saying for the last couple of years, "How are stocks still good? What is it? How is this still going up?" It always feels bad because when people ask me, I'm like,

"I don't buy stocks." They're like, "Yeah, but you said that for the last couple of years," and then it's like, "Well, how long do you keep going?" I've sort of shut up with it now. I'm like, "Just do what you want. Just make sure you buy B2C."

No, I'm in the same camp because ultimately I look at those leading indicators and I know we've done both big fans of Rau Powell and some of his work and all of that stuff. I'm a big reader or believer and I'm curious. I'm always learning about markets and cycles and stuff, and I love that.

For me, all of those macro indicators are pointing to trouble, especially in stocks. I just stay away from it. This is where it comes onto Bitcoin. I can't like properties to expensive to invest in.

Stocks are reckless highs. What are our generation going to invest in with whatever kind of money we have? For me, the most asymmetric bet you can make is Bitcoin. I think you're crazy not to.

It's certainly crazy. I think it would be argued the way that we think about it maybe could be seen as crazy because we're so confident. I think you're absolutely right. It's mental not to have a small allocation. At least like Pompa, he says, "Get off zero."

He talks a bit going about a lot of stuff and I don't like the blockchain and stuff so much, but that he talks about, but that I think is the best point ever. Get off zero is crazy not to have any. I think whatever age you are, to your point there, everyone has completely different life

circumstances. Not everyone can throw lots of money in or any money at all. I guess not. I think anyone can throw in some portion of money. I think Pompa is right, and that is Memo or whatever you want to call it, is correct. You need to get off zero because ultimately it's the best performing

asset class in the last 10-11 years. I think it's ever. Yeah, ever. That's right. I think it's the best performance set. No, it is. I heard that on the podcast the other day. It's got a compound annual return of I think 235% a year, but people get sucked into that, "Oh, well, it's lost 80%

this year. It was lost 90%, but that is the adoption of new technology. These things are risky, and I think you have to take a long-term view on these things. It's all over financial Twitter, right, HODL, and all this stuff. But I think it's right. I listened to the podcast the other day,

and they said, basically, Fidelity had buried this report, effectively said, "The best performing investment portfolios were from people who had either forgotten their password or had died."

And the fourth HODL. Yeah, the fourth HODL. But ultimately, the point is, like, hold on to these things long-term because human nature, by its kind of very definition, the psychology of humans generally aren't good at investing. Yeah, terrible.

Terrible, right? Yeah. Like literally 20,000... By the top sold the book. Yeah, exactly. 20,000 BTC literally had Uber drivers and all of my Instagram, like, people buying this stuff. And then down at 3,000 people are selling it, like, you know, bottom.

And this market's dead. It's the Bitcoin's dead. And I bought it, like, I don't know, did we invest similar time? I was kind of 2016, I think. Yeah, no, I was 2017. Had enough of property. I was like, "Fuck this. It's bullshit. I'm out."

The market's dead. I was trying to sell everything off. I'm just sick of it. And I'll paint in the meantime until it goes. And then I saw a tweet from a friend of mine, Anthony, who was on this...

No, but I listened to the podcast. Yeah. So he was banging on about it. And so I wrote to him, I was like, "That's going to have dinner." Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he explained it to me and I was like, "It makes sense." On the face of it, I didn't understand it, obviously, but I was like, "It makes sense. Will you allocate

some money for me? I don't have time." You said that. Yeah. Right. I was like, "I don't have time to just allocate some money." Yeah. He was like, "Nana, you need to learn about this. Trust me. You'll get this. Just learn about it."

So I did. So I stopped painting and the last two years, I haven't lifted my head up. Yeah, yeah. I have just studied this stuff. And it's just completely taken over my brain. It's amazing how it does that. Yeah. They call it the mind virus.

Is that what they're saying? Yeah, the mind virus. And I think it's true. Almost we become a host for it. Because one is scary. It sounds like some film. Well, it does, but genuinely. I mean, if any producers, directors are listening to this, happy to be actor in that film. Yeah. Probably speak for us both, though.

Yeah, definitely. But it does feel like that. Because if you think about it, when was the last time, when was the last day you didn't think about Bitcoin or blockchain or any of this stuff? Well, worrying things. I come back from where I were even at work on it all day.

But it's a topic that energizes me. I'm midnight. I'm looking on my laptop or I'm reading something about it, going on Twitter. As you say, this weird, people say you fall down the rabbit hole.

But it's weird, isn't it? Because you do fall down that hole, but you become more and more interested and more and more bullish on it. And it's the only asset class that has gone down. I got in at a good time, actually, and had the road that kind of waved to 20.

But then I rode it right down to three and three and a half, whatever it went down to. And I actually bought more. And I was more bullish on it, weirdly, at three and a half than 20. And it's the only asset class where I sat there thinking, like, I've got to be buying some more,

like it makes a lot. And I'm not saying I kind of bought right at the bottom because I didn't. But I kind of at never one stage did I think like, oh, I need to sell this. Like, I thought, like, how can I buy some more? I remember sitting with you a year or so. It might have been a year or

half ago. And we went and had to put in some dinner. We were like, I just hope this drops. We both like hope it drops. If we can go, if we can drop down to six K, that would be lovely. We can drop down to four K, that would be lovely. And then a week later, it does drop. And then

I'm speaking to you and you're going, yeah, yeah, I'm selling my holiday. I'm like, Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm selling my holiday because that's all piling into BT. Yeah, no, I tried to. And no one bloody bought it. It was literally like this lovely holiday to

Mexico. It looks so nice. It was so nice. I had bought it, but I was also buying BTC. And this holiday was worth like four or five grand or something. And I won this holiday, so I didn't pay that because I would have put that to BTC. And like, I have won this bloody

nice holiday to Mexico. If only I could advertise it through this podcast. Sadly, I've gotten a holiday to sell anymore because I want to be buying that. But yeah, I try to sell it because I was trying to race. And I was thinking this the other day, actually, I've got this guitar that,

annoying me, I tried playing for two years and I was just dreadful. Like, I'd love to take it up again. But it's a really nice guitar. And it's going to five, six hundred quid. I think maybe I sell that and just part of that into it. Because again, like, I'm thinking, every decision I make,

and this is, I don't know what this is about me, but like, I look at it as an opportunity cost of buying some more BTC. And I think it actually helps me limit spending on stuff. So like, you know, as you know, I, my housemate moved to, I was, well, I am was living in London and my housemate

moved to New York. And I actually made the decision to move back into my parents. And I'm very lucky that I can do that, right? Because not everyone has that situation and they can do that. But I was like, I'm going to move into my parents because I want to buy some more BTC. And like, you know,

might look back on this in whatever five, 10, 20 years, and this might be, well, I never think it's going to be a terrible decision. Because actually, if it all goes to zero, I wish I took I, I'm glad I took that chance, you know, if everything, whatever happens, right? I think you can get

really caught up in this stuff. And I think some of these sensationalist numbers don't help in terms of like, doesn't help, because like, people think it's a scam. Well, they don't think those returns are possible, even though we've seen they are, but like, they scare people off. So whatever

happens, I always try and take a step back in terms of I wish that I hope those numbers come. But like, whatever happens, I'm glad I've taken this shot. So, you know, I'm living at home at the moment. And I'm thinking, well, actually, I'm still not looking to move back in because

with the hardening coming up and, you know, what it looks like, or what's previously been super bullish, I'm basically just looking to pile it all in. I'm like, well, I'm not going to have a holiday. Well, I think you've got to be practical as well, right? You've got to have a

good time as well. And you know, but like, at the same time, I'm trying to put a lot into it. So, I got this YREX card recently, which I think was it through you or was it done? Yeah. So now I, I had been suggested it by Daniel. Yeah. And then I said to you, get it. And then a couple of

other people have got it as well. And you know, it's not masses of money, but every little bit helps. And like, it is a, it is the thrill when you spend money, you know, I spend loads of money on diesel just all the time. So I'll spend 100 quid on my diesel and they'll be like,

oh, you've got 6000 sat and I'm like, oh, it takes the pain away from spending 100 quid on diesel. It makes you want to spend money again. It's a bit weird. But like, yes, I'm probably like, I'm not getting, I'm not my expense, my expenses on my spending are not high enough for me to get

anything. I think I've got like three quid in my, three quid in my, my wallet. So you know, I'm not becoming rich soon off it. But again, stuff like that, I'm, I'm looking at ways in, I think, you know, about a year ago, I was like, or can I just, what ways I can earn it in terms of like,

can I do odd jobs? Can I go and, you know, I don't know, deliver the mail? Can I like, do some online stuff? Like, how can I earn it? Obviously, we've just kind of spoken off, off air about, uh, lolly. Um, but US based, um, I think there's a fold, a fold on the other

fold, folds, another one, similar, similar US, not bad one in the UK. Like it's, but those, those are like 10% on, on some of them, I think even higher. Yeah. And you can buy gift cut. So I think folds business model is like, or part of it will be your buy gift cards. Right. So

Amazon, Nike, whatever, you know, pretty much anything topping up your phone, all that sort of stuff. And then you get like, yeah, 10% kickback in BTC. That's 10 cents mean. And it's, yeah, and it's for nothing like the hassle of that is nothing. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There's no friction,

but they don't have it in the UK. We've talked about that a couple of times and then you've said to me, Oh, we style. Yeah. But my argument is always fucking regulations. Yeah. If you're a small business, and that's part of the reason I love Bitcoin so much is that I hate regulation.

I hate government. I hate rules. You know, other than the obvious rules, like don't hurt people, don't understand, just don't be an asshole, be a good person. But it all stifles innovation.

And when you're a small business, if we were like, Oh, look, I've got this idea, we want to start this card. And we use the same business model, which obviously works. My feeling is that we wouldn't get off the ground because you're going to have to get slisters involved. You're going to have to have

pay to get through all the regulatory implants and all that sort of stuff. And then suddenly you're in the red by a hundred grand. And it's like, well, I could have just stacked that. Yeah.

And that's the thing, isn't it? Like you're thinking like, well, it costs money to start something. But I think it's a great business. So if anyone, if anyone's listening, and they actually have some money, and they think, oh, that sounds cool, comes big to us because

DM, DM Twitter, Instagram, Tinder, like, you know, everything about that. Tinder. No, not Tinder, no, not Tinder, sorry. Bumble. No, I never get any matches. So, you know, I've got to stay off that, stay off that.

But no, that's the thing. Like, I don't know, you know, with Brexit, actually, if that presents an opportunity or makes the UK have to be more, I'm going to say, like less red tape, actually, because probably, you know, now, whatever your political leanings, actually, we've got to be

more competitive. So maybe actually that becomes more opportunity. I don't know. Well, Europe's box itself. You look at all the tech companies that nothing's happening in Europe. They're just like, Oh, should we start a tech company? Yeah, we'll do that in America, then.

We will not be going anywhere near you. It's America or Asia. So, Asia's super interesting, almost when it worked out there, I think, you know, where was it? Singapore. But again, like, I think, like, the markets are there are just, so I was listening to another podcast about a

company that's based in Beijing and New York. And the guy said he was like, you know, you think New York's, you know, the most kind of city that never sleeps in the kind of in the west. But he was like, that's like, they're basically sleeping all the time compared to Beijing.

He's like, some of the companies started in Beijing are billion-dollar companies within 18 months. Like, the pace of change and the rate of growth out there is massive. And they also, the appetite for crypto in general, like, there's a massive product market fit out there.

Their world is a lot more digital anyway. Like, you can look at, like, WeChat and Alipay and all of these things. They're used to, like, paying like that. Whereas I think a lot of the rest of the world aren't. So I think, like, they are perfect kind of a use cases forward, BTC or others.

Like, you're seeing a lot of adoption. Yeah, definitely. And I think for capital flight from China as well, Bitcoin is like, such an, I was trying to explain this to someone the other day.

And they're quite shrewd, but I won't amongst them and say who it is. I was trying to explain, I was like, the most obvious thing is Bitcoin. Like, no one understands it yet. But when someone's trying to move Bitcoin, if they're trying to move money out of China and they're buying

properties abroad and they'll leave them, you know, like in London, we're talking about why property is so expensive or in London is something like 20% of the properties in the more expensive areas are just sat, unrented, like 11 months of the year. And that's because these foreign

investors trying to get money out of their country. So, and they want to have like a fairly stable asset to put their money in. They can't keep it in just a bank account or they could, but they know obviously they're losing inflation. So they buy these and then just have them yielding nothing.

So if they had Bitcoin, they can transfer any amount at any time. It's completely liquid. And they can go across borders and no one can stop it to think that doesn't grow is crazy. So that that makes so much sense to me as well. And I was actually going to bring this up as well.

And it's basically it's the same thing. So in my kind of real estate investing days, we used to work with sovereign wealth funds, high net with individuals, but effectively like very, very wealthy foreign clients. And I remember one kind of Asian investor, basically, I don't know if they said it to me,

like explicitly, but or they said it to our team, but they were like, basically, you know, the reason I keep 10% of my network out of Asia and in the UK and in London is just because of the, I know that one day, it's like basically it's my option, right? I know one day if the government

just took all of my wealth, I have, you know, 100 million or whatever the properties were in London, and no one's going to touch that. And it's that trusted like, we could have that trusted kind of legal jurisdiction. And like, we have that kind of safe haven asset in London property.

And I think it was like yielding them like a negative return almost like, or basically zero, but for them, that's fine. Because it's just an option value. And I think this is the way that the world will start to view Bitcoin in terms of like, okay, fine property. Yes. But I think,

you know, this, this digital gold is I think a really helpful analog, but I also think it underplays it in the long term. Because actually, at the moment, you know, I think of, I think of BTC as a store of value. And I think of it as, well, you know, you look at gold as a store of

value, the kind of traditional one, but actually art as a store of value, some luxury cars are a store of value and real estate is the biggest, one of the biggest tools of value. And I think, ultimately, you can walk across borders with a password in your head and access money, or, you

know, I think, is it someone moved 100 million or something other day from like 80 quid or something, like less, less something like that. Last week, it was $530 million worth for $1 20. How does that not have value? That that's this way. Try moving, try moving that much money.

Well, firstly, you won't move that much money unless you are heavily connected. You won't move that much money unless you are supposed to for one. So like, for people who aren't supposed to be moving that money, there's a benefit. Whether they should be doing it or they shouldn't be doing it

is irrelevant. The fact is they will. And the other thing is the cost of moving them. If it's in gold, it's going to cost thousands to move it. And if it's, even if it's just transferred through the bank, it's going to take weeks, you're going to have huge costs. So and it's a liquidity as well,

right? So Bitcoin, you can sell like that property 24 hours a day, seven days a week, property, you know, it could take a year, could take whatever, like, you got to find a, you got to find a bar. So it's more liquid. It's more portable. You know, like, you see all those kind

of comparisons with gold around portability, divisibility, all of those things, it's better than gold. I think all of them bar one at the moment. And the one is the fact that because it's it's newer, you know, it's, you can't, well, I don't see, you can't trust it, but like,

that it doesn't have the track record, right? You know, you can't argue against at the moment. No, you can't. But how? Yeah, I look at that. I think how does that not have value? So I lived in, I lived in Russia for a year. And this is my move on slightly to blockchain. But, but

I know you're looking at me. No, no, no, no, it's good. I will just warn my list because I bang on all the time about fuck blockchain, load of bollocks, Bitcoin is the only thing that matters. However, that doesn't mean I'm right. Yeah. And it's always good to have a different opinion.

And I respect your opinions very much. And over the years, generally, you know, we're generally very aligned in things. So I'd like to hear your opinions. And like I say, I could be completely fucking wrong. So yeah, we will get on to, we get on to the blockchain.

So I won't talk actually too much about it, but in terms of, so I spent a year living in Russia, and we remember we're negotiating this contract, and we had to go through, I think, 10 different signed and countersigned versions of the same contract. Right. And for me, the old,

like in the startup world right now, right, we're looking at ideas and we're looking at startups and we're looking at people coming to us with ideas in kind of my personal and private and career. And like the one thing we always look at in startups is, you know, what's the size of

the problem, you know, it's solving, right? Because ultimately, if it solves a big problem for a large enough audience, people value it, right? People going to buy it. It's, you know, if you look at all kind of big startups, they've solved a kind of problem. If you look at Dropbox, it's a classic

example, or Uber, or, you know, many of these things, right? And moving on to kind of, yeah, and then, and that's how I think about more Bitcoin, but also blockchain, because actually, it's, it solves the problem of trust. And that is bloody massive.

Right. It's promised. Yes, huge. The way the world has been built in terms of, you know, we had, the internet wasn't built for kind of the current financial system, which is why we've had to have the, I had to have these trusted third parties, right? We had to have banks, we've had to have

eBay, we've had to have all these things. And actually, I'm not a massive believer, like, maybe what like, probably one day there's going to be like a decentralized Uber and decentralized Airbnb and places, things like that. But actually, I don't think those are, I think those are way

away. And I think that you, I think Airbnb is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it's a platform and they take a percentage of my fee, same with YouTube, like, obviously, people are annoyed that they take away or they take a percentage of your fee, because effectively you were, you as the content generator

are the one who is giving that platform value. And I really get that. But at the same time, like, the network effects, the users on there, et cetera, are massive. So I think it's tough to pull it away, but in the long term, I can see us being like platform less, like more peer-to-peer,

right? Yeah. Which is what BTC is, is peer-to-peer money. So like, it solves the problem of trust for me. And this is why, if you look at kind of the whole, whole DeFi space, right? So come decentralized finance that's being built on Ethereum. And whether you are bullish Ethereum as an asset

or not, or other layer one protocols, almost think it is a kind of an aside piece. Like, I think what's being built on there is super interesting. It's super early days. So if you're thinking about allocation of capital, I still think, you know, BTC should be like your, the

large holding in your portfolio. But I also think there's some super interesting kind of like venture style investments into some of these decentralized finance projects that, and I think that's, if you look at the internet, right, you, you had a kind of magazine, and you basically put that

magazine online, and you can now distribute it to, to the world. And I think that's interesting, but I don't think it's game changing. You know, things like Facebook and social media and stuff are a new, an Uber could never have been built before, right? Those are, those are super interesting

versus things that were like print before got put onto the internet versus, you know, Uber, Airbnb, et cetera, like never work, like never existed before. They couldn't even be thought of. And they couldn't be implemented because of scalability. Like, you just couldn't do it.

And this is why, and this is where my kind of bullishness of blockchain in general comes from, as well. I think BTC, you know, is, is kind of basically new money. It's, it's the new financial infrastructure, all of this type of stuff. But also, I think there's going to be some fascinating

things that we just never thought about that are going to be built on that infrastructure. I think it's, it's often hard to describe blockchain to people and Bitcoin in general and other kind of cryptocurrencies or crypto assets because actually the architecture behind it is effectively,

it's just, it's just a different way of doing a database, right? Yeah. It's, it's a back-end revolution in technology versus a front-end one way for you to get the internet. So like, I think it's difficult often to describe like the, the magnitude or what's going to be built.

And I think it would have been the same for the internet. I just know there's some super smart people tackling some super interesting problems. And for me, I'm just a big believer in smart people. And the intellectual capital in the space is crazy. Like people, you know, and it's

also such an interesting space because it's just a mix of skill sets. You've got developers, you've got psychologists, you've got financial markets, professionals, you've got tech people, you've got like so many different people. And it's such a different, such a mix of skill sets,

which is why it's constantly so interesting. And like you say, in terms of intellectual capital, people, I bang on about it all the time. I've never met people who are like the people I'm meeting now. Yeah. Not even close. I went to the bit devs meet up the other day. And I sat in that room,

and I called my fiance afterwards, just when this is going to work, because I've just sat in a room with the smartest people I have ever met in my life. And it's not like, oh, there's one smart person in that room. They're so fucking smart. And they're so passionate about it. And then you step

out of that and you go back into an additional finance or back into property or back into. And it's boring. It's a different world. It's it's it's crazy. Like, I'm such a big believer in smart people, like, much smarter than me. And like, I think it's just, yeah, like, I think that's when

people are like, Oh, well, it can't scale already. You know, it can't do this or it can't do that. Or I can't, I can't walk into my coffee shop and buy coffee with it. These arguments are so annoying, because they're so stupid. But at the same time, I say, you know, we say they're stupid. That's the

opportunity. Because I think we're like, maybe like early 90s, if you can bear it to like the internet, we haven't had that big 2000 tech boom bust yet. I think we'll get there. Because, again, the adoption of new technology is booms and busts. So I started reading this book by

I think her name's car, a lot of Perez called get this wrong. But it's like technical revolutions and financial capital, something like this. Yeah, yeah. But basically, like, it's, you know, it talks about how the world adopts new technology. And like, again, this is why I think you have

to take a long term outlook on these things. Because, you know, if you'd invested in tech stocks in 99, and they went to near zero in 2000, but if you still held Amazon now, no, it's gone out, you know, a magnitude of whatever it is, right? Yeah. And I still think it's the same. Every kind of BTC

dip of 80 90% has been a buying opportunity. Yeah. And I think whenever we have the next boom and the next bust, I think it's going to be the same. You know, and it's only increasing in its basically, you know, if you look at its hash power and how to hash rate and stuff, like, it's only

becoming more secure, the infrastructure being built around it is, well, I think when I was getting a shadow financial world being built around kind of digital assets and around kind of BTC, right? Yeah, I'd say even not, not almost. I'd actually say no, we are, we're not always, we are,

yeah. It like, there's not a lot you can't do in this space. Some of it plays into the DeFi stuff, and like, I don't really get involved in that. But if you include the DeFi stuff, and what's happening on Bitcoin, and there is DeFi happening on Bitcoin as well, different, but there's nothing

you can take loans out. Yeah, you can use, you can use its collateral. You can leverage. It's 24 hour trading. You can transfer anywhere in the world. You can do atomic swaps. You can do, like, there's not a lot you can't do. And there's things that you can do that you can't do in the

traditional world. That's the thing, right? Like, we sit here in the UK, and we're lucky in terms of a really developed country. You know, we've had good educations, and we've been, you know, we sit in a kind of comfy life, right? But actually, I think what's the stat? Is it like,

almost two billion in the people, two billion people in the world around banked? And again, this argument kind of gets made a lot. But actually, those people don't have access to kind of bank accounts for whatever reasons. And they may be under kind of authoritarian regimes or kind of

difficult governments. And these people have an access to kind of, you know, traditional financial products or opportunities before. And the opportunity, again, like, you know, not to go into the kind of DeFi space too much on here, but like, no, no, go, go into it.

So if you look, if you look at a couple of projects, like make it down, for example, stablecoin, super, again, smart team, super interesting project. And again, basically, what they're doing is creating a stablecoin. That is a digital asset, right? So, but it's

pegged to the US dollar. So you get the benefit of, you know, US dollar effective stability, but you can own it wherever you are in the world. Right. So if you're in Venezuela, where people are just, you know, your government is printing away your money,

BTC is an obvious kind of, you know, obvious buy there, right? But also, you might need some kind of stable, stable money to go and buy something, right? Because you don't want to buy your milk in BTC, right? Yeah, absolutely. I'll give you this, is that if there is a stablecoin,

somehow, that can be made, which doesn't have a trusted trust party or an oracle problem, and it can be pegged to dollar, that is more useful than BTC today for people in authoritarian countries and places like Venezuela who want access to dollars, I'll completely say

that, yeah, definitely, it's better because they've already got so much volatility, what they really want is dollars. They're not trying to invest. They're just trying to survive. They're trying to preserve, right? They're just trying to survive, right?

And like, those things have value, they, they are, it's so obvious, you know, like egg on my face in a few years, but it seems so obvious that something like that, makes sense, right? And so, make it out, for example, you can, you can take out a CDP, so

collateralized deposition, basically, I can go lock up ETH, or they've now got multi-collateral die, which means, you know, you don't have to put just ETH, you can put other, other assets into into the vault and effectively make a loan to yourself, right? I don't need to go to a bank,

I don't need to interact with anyone, apart from a smart contract, to go and give myself a loan, and then use that loan to go and do whatever, right? That is powerful. You go, if you go and try and make a loan with a bank in the UK, it's hard enough. If you go and try and make one in one of these

countries, it's, you can't. Yeah, and the poorer you are, the less, the more you need the money, the less you have access to the money. Exactly. And at worse rates, so it is this, this recurring theme, those throughout the world, even in our country, which is, the poorer you are, the poorer

you get over time, the richer you are, the richer you get over time. And people always look to politicians and go, "Yeah, take the money from the rich," and that'll fix everything, no it fucking won't, because that's not the problem. The problem is that people don't have access,

so if you talk through with something like Maker, doesn't have to be Maker, just if we just say that there's a stable asset that's pegged to the dollar that can be used anywhere and anyone can take loans, what's that process look like for someone? So for example, let's take Maker. So you,

you have to own ETH or another asset that you can lock up and what are the other assets you can use. So they've just transitioned on to multicolateral die. I can't remember what they are, but I think it's six or seven now, but basically they're trying to make it more, I guess, accessible,

so you just don't have to own ETH. I'll go on to actually what I think is a big theme in 2020 is BTC on ETH and BTC in DeFi, because actually I think that's more valuable than probably ETH in DeFi, which is going to annoy a lot of the people. That's fine, we're all about annoying people on

the show. I don't care, the point of the show is don't care about feelings, let's just say how it is, people want to cry about it, that's fine, but let's just try and get to the truth and try and help people. Yeah, I mean, that's harsh, man, that's super harsh. Well, it's not, it's like,

no, no, no, we use get the facts, right? Yeah. And so like, yeah, so making you basically need Ethereum, you basically go through a kind of simple web application, you basically lock it up, which basically means you just send it to the smart contract, and then you can play around with

a few... It's collateral. It's collateral, basically, you know, much like, let's make it, let's make it simple as it's, if you go to the bank, you can lock up your house's collateral and take it out alone against it. And you can't sell that house until you've paid them back? Exactly, exactly. It's exactly

the same, but rather than having to go to the bank, I go to a smart contract, right? Just computer code, right? Yeah. And actually, like, that is fundamentally, well, A, it's like 1000 times quicker.

It's a couple of clicks. Yeah. And at the moment, you know, there are, there are some, it's early days, so effectively, you know, it's either or it's now a few other kind of collateral types. You can't, you know, some of the loans, you can make them more simple, let's say, but you can see a world

quite soon where you can take out, you know, any type of loan you could in, let's call it the real world or, you know, the kind of fiat world, the traditional world on these platforms. Plus, there's going to be more like more opportunities. The rates are going to be lower. People are going

to get more access to these things, like, because you don't have to interact with a lot of these third parties. And that is, that's valuable. Mm hmm. So, so the process has been locked it up for example. Yeah. Yeah. But I have. Yeah. I've been locked it up in a smart

contract. And you, you get die back. Okay. And I get what? 2x the amount that I've locked up, or what's the, what, what ratio do I have to have locked up? So I think you have to have a minimum, no, so you have to have a minimum of 100. I think it's 130%. So you're over collateral.

You're over collateralized at the moment. And these are some of the kind of challenges I'm talking about. And actually, I think like people are working on under collateralized loans at the moment. Because again, like otherwise, you're thinking, I've got to lock up quite a lot. And,

you know, it's to get, yeah, to get, you know, whatever, like whatever, it's 70%. So you get die, basically. And one die is supposed to equal $1. And when I say supposed to, actually, it pretty much does. It fluctuates between 99 cents and maybe just over $1. So it's similar,

like, tether or one of them. Yeah. But it's different to a lot of them, because it's basically algorithmically determined. So there is no one, there is no reserve. So I think tether and others have some of the USDC, for example, is another stable coin. I think backed by Goldman Sachs.

That has US dollar reserves. So there are flatter, like Gemini has a dollar as well, we've got twins like, so they have, they have, there's different flavors of stable coins. My favorite is maker. Just because of that, it's completely reserved. It's completely out of the

traditional world. There is no reserve. It is algorithmically determined. So that's locked up. So you get die. So you basically get dollars. So you've put a hundred grand, let's say, of Ethereum into a smart contract. And you've now got how much die. Call it 70,000.

Like you can determine how much, but let's call it 70,000. 70,000 in die. And, but so with that over, so what's the benefit there in terms of, you've given a hundred in ETH, which we don't know if that platform is going to survive or not debatable. Like we won't get to the bottom of it, between us. But that's locked up. So you've

got risk there. And you've put in a hundred to get 70. So I see it, if it was under collateralized, they're like, okay, yeah, you put in 70, you get a hundred. I see that. But what's the benefit now? So for example, I could then go use that die to go buy more ETH.

Right. So now I've got say 70,000 ETH on top, and I can then go and trade that ETH, and I can go leverage it, or I can, or I could take the die and I could lock it up and get 10% or whatever it was, 89% at the moment, if I stake it out. You're leveraging.

Yeah. Perfectly. But because my, my ETH that sits in collateral is still there, right? So I've still got a hundred thousand ETH. Now I've got 70,000 more. You know, what depends on what you go and buy, right? Or I can go and buy BTC. I can use that die to go buy it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. So there is the options there. Then obviously, it's, it's, it's dependent on, on ETH's price as well. So basically there's this. So if the price drops, you have to, you don't even have to, if there's, you have no choice,

effectively or liquidated for you, right? Right. So that's where you want to be massively over collateralized. Yeah. Because of that. Especially with the volatility. Especially with the volatility, right? So yeah, it's not perfect. And that's the opportunity. None of these

things are perfect. And BTC is not, and the world is not perfect in this, you know, in this new world. And that's what the opportunity is. Because you don't want to be investing into anything that everyone thinks, Oh, yeah, like, I think, you know, BTC is safe. It's obvious it's

going to be the next, you know, you're a world for whatever. Yeah. It's like, it's like investing in Disney. Yes, it's a giant mean, like it's investing in Apple. Yeah, it's like, it's like, Oh, yeah, you're not going to have the returns because everyone's risk, risk and reward or

intertwined. Right. Yeah. Okay. I see the, I definitely see that some of these things could be useful. I just think it's the, like, for me, my concern is how it's implemented. So like, so you've done that you've, you locked up a hundred grand, you've got your 70, you've bought

another 70,000 in of ETH or Bitcoin or whatever you have. So you're now leveraged. Now, which happens in this market, the price dropped in half. Yeah. That's risky. So if it doesn't go your way, you lose everything. But if it goes your way, someone who has a small amount of money has the

potential to do very, very well. Yeah. And that's, it's like leverage is exactly the leverage is risky, right? Yeah. But, but so what happens if you, it goes the wrong way, your hundred thousand in ETH that you originally put in there is taken. So they, so, or you lose it.

Yeah. So I don't know if you lose the all of it though. So I think you'll lose basically whatever you need to pay back the loan, right? Okay. So, but so what would happen? What, okay, what would happen in this situation in terms of, I've put a hundred thousand into Ethereum,

locked it up, got 70,000 back, Ethereum, sorry, with that 70,000, I buy Bitcoin. Overnight, there's a catastrophic bug. Ethereum goes to zero. Yeah. Vitalix assassinated. And at the same time. R.P. Vitalix. Yeah, R.P. Vitalix. And at the same time,

there's a massive bug and inflation bug or something like that. Right. That happens. So ETH goes to zero. Yeah. That collateral now that you had of 100,000 ETH is worth nothing. But you've bought Bitcoin. Yeah. And all the money that was in Ethereum is pouring into Bitcoin.

Bitcoin doubles overnight. Yeah. Ethereum goes to zero. Yeah. How does that contract claim the money that 70,000 back from you? So it knocks on your door. So it doesn't, well, I might get this wrong, but I don't think it needs to because it's taken all of your hundred, right? It's taken all

your collateral. So it's the same if you go, if you buy, if you use your property, right, as collateral in this world, they'll take your property away from you. Right. But they won't go and take more unless you incur more debt. So you could only, you can only ever lose the maximum you can ever lose is

what you've initially put in. You can never have more debt than that than what's in there. It's a good question. I think so because my question there is. And so maybe that's the case that it's the same with the property. They just take your property because it's over collateralized. So they've

taken it into account. If it's under collateralized, then what happens? Who? Yeah. There's the Oracle problem. It's like, who the bank you go the wrong way with an investment, the bank is going to send a couple of gorillas to your door and they're going to take all your things. And that's it. It's

gone. Yeah. In this situation, who, because like, die is an algorithm. Yeah. The algorithm isn't going to knock on your door and go, you know what I mean? Like, that's my question is scary, algorithm. Yeah. So what happens there? That I guess that's the issue. And that is why over

collateralized loans were built first, right? Because they are the most simple, i.e. we take your collateral because we know we can then pay back the debt, right? Under collateralization, that's why it's a harder challenge. There are, again, super smart people working on it. And I think

people will solve it. But I can't tell you how they're going to solve that. But I think, because that's where the real money, that's sold somehow. I can't think. Because the thing is right. So you have $100,000 pounds in ETH, right? And you lock that up and you go use that to buy,

say, $70,000 of BTC, right? That could be valuable if BTC goes up and so does ETH or ETH says that neutral, you then take your ETH back, you got to pay off your loan or whatever, all this type of stuff, right? But at the same time, or you could basically you could use that 100,000 ETH just to

buy 100,000 BTC. So you actually get more BTC anyway, right? Yeah. So this is like, this is the thing. It depends on what you want to do with that money. I suppose there are edge cases where it could be useful. And I will say that, yeah, I can, I think my issue with all of this stuff is

not that I'm not saying there aren't useful things. I definitely see there are. And I think anyone, like I would say, my allocation is 100% BTC. However, I see that these things are useful.

The only reason that I have issues with them are Oracle problem, which we just discussed. So like, you're going back to a third party, if it's under collateralized. And the other problem, and I think this is what you're saying you're going to get on to, is that the platform that

these things are built on, whether it's ETH or Tron or whatever, I don't believe in. It doesn't mean that I'm right, I'm probably wrong, but I don't believe in. If these things could be built on something like Lightning Network or for it, but I sort of see it as layering risk. It's like,

you're building something that potentially could be unstable and is experimental on top of something else that is potentially unstable and unproven. So it's kind of layering risk where, as I see Bitcoin is the other way, which is like, you're building something that's unbelievably stable.

And then you're layering on top things that are maybe slightly more unstable, either on top or on the side of it. And if they go wrong, then the actual protocol is still safe, and whatever class or you have is still safe. But I think that's my problem with ETH, is that

I'm concerned with the way that it's built and its future, and layering things on top of it, would worry me more than I'd probably be much more willing to go for something like die and give it a go if it was built on Bitcoin. And I think you're maybe going to tell me that you can

have something. Well, so this is the thing, right? I think there's, so like 2020 is like the year of like the layer one launches. So like basically smart contract platforms like Ethereum, super interesting company I've spoken to recently called NIR protocol, whose roadmap.

NIR was in the Chinese. No, sorry, NIR and EAR, Sam Fran based company. They are taking an approach to sharding, which is kind of like on-chain scaling, which very much resembles Ethereum's roadmap. But I'm pretty sure Ethereum basically copied them.

But anyway, like basically they are taking the approach of kind of scaling on chain versus off-chain. And you know, there's there's a number of ways you can scale kind of side chains on like layer twos, etc, etc. Obviously Lightning Network and Bitcoin. But if you are, so when I'm speaking to

some of these startups who are generally building on Ethereum, which is kind of why I'm more bullish like Ethereum, because they all seem to be building on Ethereum. Almost everything is.

Everything, right? Yeah. And then there's that composability, which people kind of often talk about, which is kind of like, if you think about it as Legos, actually you can put together compound and a few of these other kind of platforms and pieces of code that already been built and create

something stronger, which is super interesting, because that again isn't possible at the moment. But yeah, so I think like companies that are built on top, it's just code and code can be ported onto like another platform. So if Ethereum or others go wrong, just put it over to a different

one. Yeah. Yeah. So this is why like, actually, like I think some of these applications are interesting investments or interesting companies, because again, you can just move it over. It's just, you know, it's just code. But again, like coming back to your point around, like,

where value accrues almost, yeah, I am also kind of with your camp in terms of, I think Bitcoin is the best, most proven use case. The fact that you have hard cap supply, 21 million coins, clear kind of routes to to the 21 million, i.e. the hard things and all this

sort of stuff, right? It's almost like if you go to the Federal Reserve and they go make a decision around monetary policy, it's a black box. You don't know what's going to happen, right?

They don't know what's going to happen. They don't know what's going to happen. They got a way, you know, go look at the data and think like, and they, you know, make an accordance for what they thinks, you know, the best way to kind of keep the economy in check. And then this is why I'm so

bullish kind of Bitcoin because actually, I think, you know, many people have said it, but we're in the perfect storm for it right now. Like, governments are government debt is yielding negative, right?

Which is just ridiculous. Basically, they've, you know, got to pay them to basically buy their debt, which is like crazy, right? Yeah, run that part as an investment thesis. Like, if you imagine going to a business or a person in normal life and going, right,

do you want to invest? Yeah, I'm going to raise debt, right? I'm going to raise debt in, in Alex, you know, LTL, right? But actually, Max, to, you know, to fund my growth because I want to go buy, you know, whatever, machinery, right, to build whatever business or buy a lot. So I want to go

buy a miner, right? We'll go into that story after. I want to go buy a couple of ant miners, but I'm going to raise, you know, 10 grand in debt and go buy, you know, three or four miners or whatever, you're going to board for that. And but to do that, I'm going to issue debt,

debt capital, right? And actually, you're going to pay me versus me paying you to do that. Yeah. Pay me to pay me to pay me. Yeah. Pay me to pay me. You know what? And that's literally what's happening, right? Because like, and then, like, the way I think about it is kind of like,

psychology, right? And I think about, okay, people are so scared of like, what's happening, of where to put their money, that they will basically pay a government, say, Switzerland, or wherever it is, to keep their money there, because they're so, they fucking like, they'll,

they'll take that minus 1% or whatever it is, because they're so scared. They just don't understand it. I think that I think the people who are deep in finance, you know, buying negative field bonds and that kind of stuff, they're doing it because they think that it's the safest thing

they can do. But the average person on the street, if you say to them, right, your money's not backed by gold. Yeah. You're, you're losing money every day when you hold and because of inflation. Because of inflation. And then you're paying to have a bank account, which you pay to lose you money.

So they don't understand it. No, so the, the, the banking one's really interesting, right? So I think I think, I'm pretty sure you know the answers to this. But like, for example, if I go and put 1000 pounds on my money or 50,000, whatever it is, into the bank account, who owns that money?

The bank. Exactly. Yeah. But people don't know. People don't know. Yeah. I didn't know that until, you know, year or two ago. It was crazy. This is a scary thing, right? And then like, so this is why I think we're in, we're in the perfect storm because the, the kind of

the bond markets are there. And basically the world is printing money, right? All central banks. I think the thing is like they, they're doing it out of almost like good faith. They're trying to save their economies. Like, I think the, the economies that have fed the best to like the US,

UK not so much, but like generally compared to like a lot of countries. If you have, you know, I think the best thing we ever did was have our own currency and retain our own kind of central bank ability to put on monetary policy and stuff. Because if you look at Europe, right, Greece versus

Germany, a generally strong economy, you know, strong country, but Greece have just been screwed, right? Over because I think Europe itself is, is a good idea. But I think, like, ultimately, it's just, it's not working, right? It was definitely not working. The euro, like, if you're holding

euros, yeah, think again, yeah, like long dollar euros, 100%. Like, I just, I worry about the whole euro zone. I don't think that potentially may exist in a few years. Yeah, I think probably not.

Yeah. But again, like, there's a lot of benefits of it. But at the same time, I think it had good ideas, good kind of values, and there's lots of benefits. But I just don't think countries like Germany and Greece under one monetary policy are going to work, right? But I think, again, like,

you know, coming back to the kind of BTC point, countries are trying to stave off the next, you know, crisis, whatever it is. And I don't think maybe we kind of differ here that we have another 2008, 2009. So I think those are once in a generation of events. But I think, you know, I think the last

one was got great depression in 1920 or something. But I think we have to have some type of unwind in some type of correction, because things are ridiculous, right? And debt is like increasing, increasing. But the only way to like, almost try and get away with that debt is to inflate it away,

right? Yeah, eventually that's one route. So what is the only route? Yeah, well, exactly. And I think, you know, I think they'll try their best. And, you know, I think there has to be some type of correction. But, you know, it's the longest kind of

expansion expansion since whatever I was like forever. But that's, you know, we've come from the deepest correction in so long. But like, you know, I think countries will print and print and print and print and print and print. So what do you own assets? So, you know, you know, like real estate,

but the best assets are when governments are just printing away. And almost like option value, if you do get like hyperinflation is in my way, kind of option is, is BTC. Well, yes, it's any hard asset. So anyone, anyone worth listening to will say like,

gold, gold, yeah, Bitcoin, yeah, some property, I would argue that's probably not the best, but like, you know, it's better. I still think it probably got in like, in like, long term, it makes sense as an asset bonds. Yeah. So people will argue that, but

they actually, the best asset is the hardest and hard cap supply asset. And that's Bitcoin. But yeah, it's, the inflation is, it's a weird one because I think just most people just don't understand it. I just don't think they, because they're not seeing, if anything, they're seeing

their number go up. So they're, you mean like salary or salary house prices when we're not in a slump or in a book or something now, but like, you know, people will go, Oh, well, you know, my house was worth X and it's now worth Y. And my salary was, and it's now this, but if you actually

look at your purchasing power, it's gone down. But because the numbers gone up, they feel richer, but they're not understanding that actually, no, it's just a number on a screen. It's just, it's just, it doesn't mean anything. And I think that's where, I don't know where people wake up to

it because like you're saying we're going to go negative yielding. How far do we have to go down that line before people just go fuck it? Because it feels to me like people are finding like hard at the moment. Just the average person is just like, yeah, yeah. But I think a lot of that comes

from, again, like maybe, you know, what I don't think it was, it was a UK thing, but like, like house prices, right? So I saw, I was looking into, into this interesting chart the other day, and it was basically like, I love a chart. How sad, how sad is our other chart? How sad is our life

that like, you send each other like a chart. So like midnight, like, close out of interest. So I love that. Is that weird? That's weird, isn't it? Anyway, I enjoy it. So I'm looking at this chart, I'm super excited about it. Literally. And it's like,

so it's like, well, there's a few charts, actually, I like one of them is like affordability ratios, right? So it's basically house price to, to income. Basically, I think 20 ideas ago to all 20 plus years ago, house price was about three X to your income, right? So like seven or something. Yeah.

Well, no, about three X, right? And so as a baby boomer, you know, what, of course you're buying your bloody house, because it makes so much sense. I think people what blame baby boomers for putting us in this position, but I think they made super rational choices. I don't think it's any, it's

theirs or anyone's fault. No, I just think, you know, that's the way of the world, right? Yeah. Now, I think, well, again, this might be London specific, but they're like 12 X income. And like, again, so right. So now given kind of financial crisis, you know, debt was easy to come by.

Now I can't get more than four X my income. Yeah, you're sorry. I can't get more than four X main come yet house prices 12 X main come. How am I supposed to pull that? Simple maths doesn't make any sense, right? So that was obviously schemes to try and get you on. So the housing

and all this type of stuff, but like that, you know, tells me like, you know, that's just ridiculous. Do you want to be buying an asset at that price? Just logically, logically, that just seems no sense. It makes no sense. And like, I don't think I am one of many people who are like

having to move home because it just doesn't feel right. Yeah, but because it's slow and creeping, relatively slow and creeping. I think it, it's normalized. And it's like, yeah, well, you know, this is just the house prices. And yeah, you know, like, it is £12.50 for a panini and a black coffee,

just like, yeah, like as if that's sort of normal. I think I paid £3.20 for like a flat white that was like, yeah, besides my finger. A shot. Super tasty. I keep going back there. It's yeah, that's really it. But it's normal. It is normal. And it's just sort of accepted,

actually wrote an article recently about literally what we're talking about. And the basic point is that it's like, don't have a go at millennials and call them lazy. No. Because you have to step out of your little box and actually look at, well, hold on, are they lazy and

winching? Like some of them are fucking winching. They piss me off and they talk like shit. But really, a lot of the things they're complaining about is completely logical. Because like you're saying, it's four or five times more difficult to any property. And they're buying at the absolute

peak if they are to buy. So they've got more risk. And it's five times harder. The cost of living is higher. They don't have their free education anymore. The chance of getting into a job and just sort of moving away up the ranks, it doesn't work like that anymore. The competition is all

the world has changed. And I think just to say, oh, millennials are lazy. And that's why they're not doing well, is a really just ignorant way to view the way it's really ignorant. And it annoys me because, yeah, it's just it's being in is literally being in your own little bubble and just being

like, Oh, they're lazy. Yeah. And then that causes this conflict of like millennials are going, Oh, yeah, well, boomers, of course, all these problems for us. No, like you said, what they did was rational.

And where it all stems down to is the money. And that's it. And this is the thing, right? Like, yeah, they made rational choice. It's not their fault. But at the same time, so like, I speak to like, you speak to any one of our kind of parents, age and generation,

right? If they went to university, they pretty much walked into any job they wanted to, right? I went and interviewed with kind of top top investment banks. And I was probably the only English person there. It's a global competitive world now. You know, it's easy to say this. But you know, I think

our generation is is more entrepreneur or more driven, more like competitive, potentially than, you know, the generation before, and you know, the generation coming through up with me even more.

So they're not because they have to be. Yeah. Because it's a tough world. But at the same time, like, I agree with you, I think, you know, a lot of people moan. At the same time, you have options.

It's not moaning. Yeah. And actually, we have more opportunity as well, I would argue. Like, people earning 10 million a year or 10 million a month on YouTube. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy.

Like before, you know, you go work on big company and you stay there for 30, 40 years and hopefully, you know, you, you get a nice pension out of it. Actually, I would argue the world is a more interesting, exciting place now, because you can be a seven year old kid. And it's a seven year old

kid on is maybe from China, who makes X like 10 million a month or a year or something, reviewing toys. Yeah, that is brilliant. Like, that's awesome. We have those opportunities that got podcasts now. This is, this is awesome. Yeah, I'm literally yielding minus $100 a month.

Yeah. It's all it is. Brilliant. You know, please sponsor the podcast. No, but it is sponsored, right? The, like you said, the, and it's that connectivity as well. Yeah. It's the fact that, like, on this part of, I obviously we know each other, but on this podcast,

I've reached out to people who are on the other side of the world in completely different industries and had amazing conversations and learn and, and, and, and that just wasn't possible in our parents' generation. And yes, they had opportunities. Yes, in general, life was easier in a lot of

ways. But what we're talking about is actually, um, this wealth transfer coming and that the opportunity, well, I think we both definitely agree is the opportunity now is Bitcoin and blockchain. Yeah. And this is going to be, for the people who are bothered to look into it,

have the opportunity to really, really do well. Yeah. And with this digital money that can ping around the world, you can start a website or a YouTube video or whatever it is you want to start or whatever business and you can trade globally 24/7. Yeah. That's like unthinkable.

Yeah. And I saw this thing on, I don't know if it was CNBC or something other day. Someone tweeted about it and it was like, Bitcoin falls after hours. Who is it? Is it someone to me? Someone like that. And I was literally laughing because I was like, these people who don't get it.

No, they don't. There is no hours, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny. Yeah, it's so funny. Like, but I, so I think, you know, again, I talk property a lot, but like, I think Bitcoin is our generation's property. Yeah. Effectively, but more, well, I was going to think more, there's more opportunity

there. Maybe it's a better analog to think about it almost as the internet in terms of, you know, investing in the internet. But effectively, it is the whole, the whole internet, exactly.

It's not like picking, no, it's not picking Amazon Google or Amazon. And you'd have, you know, that's like almost shotgun fire. It's like, you know, investing because no one is smart enough.

They might think retrospectively, like, oh, I was smart. Stop picking his heart, right? Yeah. Really, really hard. And this is what you want to be. You want to take a long term for you on, you know, as, on the almost the long term, why don't I say the asset, but almost like an index,

i.e. if you were investing in, you know, the S&B 500, you can buy the index and it makes about 78% a year, you know, which is a good return, right? But like, I think, you know, buying Bitcoin is almost our generations. I don't want to say kind of escape, but it's our generation's

opportunity. And I think that if, if, you know, even if it goes to kind of zero or something happens, I still think you have to try and take the opportunity. Because I think otherwise in five, 10, 20 odd years, you look back and think, why didn't I try and put at least some of my time

and some of my money and some of something into this? Yeah, I think that the key is like, get off zero and invest as much as your, I don't even, I don't like that as much as you're willing to lose because I actually think that it's much risk of putting your money in the stock market

right now. I genuinely agree. Yeah. But I would say, I think it's one of those things that's like invest as much as you understand. Yeah. Because like, I first got involved with this stuff.

I was, I was buying all the different old town. I had no idea what I was doing really. I was just like jumping on a train. And as time has progressed, and as I've become more comfortable with the technology, I feel more comfortable with my hardware wallet, I feel more comfortable with

that the people who are in industry and seeing what's happening. Then you feel more comfortable having a larger allocation. But to have, to have, you know, if you had 5% allocation, and you'd lose that 5%, if it goes to zero, firstly, like you said, is the most interesting

industry to work in. Yeah. Like, yeah, I think like by far. Yeah. It has the biggest upside of anything on the planet. Yeah. It is the best, is the best investment you could have made ever over the last 10 years. Yeah. And not only that, and the most, the other thing is,

it's not only about the money, it's about social change. So if it goes to zero, at least you can say, I was trying to be part of something that would bring more freedom and opportunity to people in the world. And okay, I gave it a go. It didn't work. But at least I tried. And I think we've

reached a stage now where it's something like, there's too much, there's too much intellectual capital and kind of brilliant people in the space that something, you know, is going to stick. I think the whole thing sticks by like, you know, it's not the whole space isn't going to zero anymore.

I think we're beyond that. You know, I think it's, I flax one events that, you know, something like, I keep, I keep kind of trying to be almost keep, I don't say like logical around this stuff, but in terms of like, it's skeptical, try and still be skeptical. Because often it's, you see,

you know, 100,000 BTC price. And you know, these things, like, so like, we, we kind of talk about, you know, plan B on Twitter and his, his brilliant stock to fly model. Yeah, like super smart guys, super interesting. And again, like, statistically, that is like the most accurate thing that's ever

accurate model that's ever been built. You know, and that predicts kind of, I think, his early one was 50 to 60. Now he's saying, I think it's 100 by the 2122, after the evening. And then if it overshoots 340. Is that what it is? Yeah. Yeah. The thing he says,

lower bound is 50 100 overshoot 340. So like these things like, but I think, like 100% want them to happen. Yeah. But at the same time, I think if you, if you're going to talk to people and you just tell them, oh, well, it's going to go to 100,000. And people are like, what? 100,000.

Like what? Fake money or digital, like, electronic money. Yeah. I really fucked myself up because I actually have been saying for the last year and a half a million. I've actually been saying a million to 10 million. Yeah. But my timeframe is 10 to 30 years. So, but the, the looks that you get,

yeah, I don't really do it anymore. That's part of the reason I started the podcast. It's like, you just can't talk to normal people. You could just tell the internet. Yeah. I can tell the internet. Yeah. Because milkman's not listening to you.

No. Well, I wasn't trying to get off zero. You should get off zero. Yeah. But I mean, I didn't try with a milkman, obviously. Okay. They didn't drink milk. It should. Yeah. They're not really bad people. Like I'm trying not to, yeah, I'm not pushing my views on people, but yeah, but don't fucking drink milk.

Don't drink milk ever. We're not pushing views, but by Bitcoin, don't drink milk. Like there should be like the slogan or something, not sponsored by the milk trade. Also, cow's are cute. Yeah. Cow's are cute. Yeah.

Don't eat beef, although I kind of do that as well. No, I love it. I love it. But I love cows as well. So I do find myself in that sort of difficult scenario, but you could move on to table warming quite easily. Oh, I had, I had one the other day, and we had a podcast on it. I did try stop eating beef for about six months to a year.

And it was good, but then I got on this diet where I had to kind of eat super clean, and it was really difficult. And so I apologize to the cows. I'm eating you again. Yeah, but I apologize as well. I am like one of the worst, I don't know what the right word is, but like, I'm the biggest animal lover.

Well, I'd be both, I'd be animal lovers out there. Yeah, I'm eating these, I'm eating these guys. Well, my view is we won't go too much off topic here, because we're going to anger people and also, yeah, weird. I thought this was a feature. Yeah, it's a feature. But as much as you can love

animals, we are naturally mentally, like we have done for a long time. And like, you can argue back and forth about what's the healthiest diet and all the rest of it. But at the end of the day, like my perfect, if VTC goes where we think it's going to go, right? And I can buy my

land, I'll go hunt. Not like hunting horrible just to kill stuff and then like put it on my mantelpiece, that's disgusting. But like, it's horrific. But hunting in the terms of like, going out into the wild, shooting a deer or something like that. No, don't you? Yeah, I would,

I would. Would you? Yeah, and I would. And I'd eat it, because I'd prefer, I'd feel less bad about doing that than like, right, getting a chicken that's been in the cage. Yeah, like, like, and at least I feel like if I actually have to kill something, yeah, I'll probably do it less. And

I'll be more thoughtful about the way that I eat that meat. Yeah. But I can't imagine not eating meat. So I tried it. So again, I don't want to go too far off topic. But obviously, spend a lot of time thinking about the future. You said the world, I think 30 years. So basically,

a long time future, we will no longer eat animals. And the reason I say that is because I'm not saying everyone's growing vegetarian. I think we clean meat. So I think we eat beef that is grown in a lab that is not full of antibiotics and crap. So I generally think, you mean as in,

it's indistinguishable, indistinguishable. And it's grown in a lab, growing in a lab, there's no animals harmed. Yeah, completely behind it, if it's possible. And it probably is. Yes. At the moment, there's a few really interesting companies that are doing it at the early stages,

but they are. And I think like again, like the unit economics don't make sense. It's probably during a dollar as a burger or something. But like again, all of that stuff comes down over time.

And I generally think that like kids are kids or whoever kind of growing up will think it was crazy and disgustingly, we ate animals. But at the same time, I think that's a long way off. But I can see that and I can see a world where that happens. So we can look back into 30

podcasts in 30 years when we're, say, old and gray, we're not really about old and gray still. I'm getting gray. I've got more gray the last couple of years because of King stressful. Pretty distinguished, though. Yeah, I can still be wrong with gray.

So I'm still kind of like, received. Lucky and gray. Lucky blonde. No, no, you're looking good, mate, no. All right, cheers. You get married soon as well. Yeah, that's true. I've, you know, I'll leave me. No, she won't. Okay.

She walked down the aisle and go, this wasn't what I signed up for. I can't see what's happening. She's lucky to have you. Yeah, you hear that? Yeah, lucky. Yeah. I hope you listen to this.

See you at the wedding. Yeah. No, we're talking about. Oh, yeah, right. Okay. How do we get on to that? I don't know how we got on to that. But that's okay. Anyway, yeah. Yeah, how do you just get on to that? Bitcoin. Bitcoin to veganism. We're all saying veganism.

I think people will eat manufactured meat. All for it, if that can, if it can happen. Probably just in companies out there doing that right now. Shout out to them. Do you want to send me any bugs? I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

I think I had a good point about BTC and then I've forgotten it now. Let me just backtrack so we're talking about, we can cut some of this. We're talking about what investments were available for younger people. Okay, so actually one point I want to make

is around. So I've read this book a while ago and I've seen a kind of few recent videos from a guy called Neil Howl. He's written a book called the ball turning. And these, again, it comes back to, I guess, my interest in cycles. Again, kind of interesting

in the work that kind of like Raul Paolo and CoDoo. And actually on the drive up here, I was listening to a podcast with Raul and Neil on kind of around the fourth turning, where they think we are and stuff like this. But like long story short, like there's these big

macro kind of demographic shifts that happen in the world over time, right? And actually, like these kind of, I think towards the end of these turnings, like these kind of weird things start happening. And it almost feels like the world is in a weird place right now where it's,

we're on like the edge of something. Is that just because of the industry that we're in? Well, yeah. And our brains, it feels like it is for sure. Like maybe, but like if you look at what's happening in the world, like if you look at what's happening with, you know, less in the markets,

but then if you look at happening or something with like politics, right? Like with Brexit, Trump elected the kind of election in the US right now, why would you know, Bernie might get in all these type of things. Yeah, press pause on the world. Let's just write. Yeah, what's happening?

It feels like we are in weird stuffs happening around the world that kind of hasn't happened before. It almost feels like it hasn't happened before. And maybe that's naive, just because, you know, I wasn't there. But it just doesn't, it feels weird. It feels like we're on the next

turning. So I think what Neil would call the fourth turning. So the next kind of, not generational shift. And it just feels like the invention of Bitcoin and kind of blockchain in general is the next kind of turning, if that makes sense. So like we kind of were saying earlier that a

shadow financial system has been built, but I don't think it is shadow. It's like a financial system is being built parallel to the current financial system. So you've got even big established companies building like custody, building exchanges, building, you know, market makers,

building like all the matching stuff. Like, like everything that exists kind of, if you look at finance is being built in this new digital asset space. And I think it's almost like they will kind of run in parallel for a little bit with a few bridges and like, you know, a few kind of things

will happen between them. But eventually, I think that current financial system and infrastructure breaks and falls away. And we actually end up on these new financial rails, basically. And I think that's, I don't even think that's, you know, I think that's likely to happen. I don't even think

that's a kind of, you know, oh, I'm going to hold BTC because it's a hedge against the current financial system. I think that will probably happen. And I think, you know, it kind of makes sense in where we're at in the world where everything feels so weird that we're going to transition

into a better world, where people have more access to financial stuff. And again, like, I think this is why DeFi makes sense as use or as first use cases or Bitcoin, for example, makes sense because it's their financial use cases. So if you look at the internet, right, it was the democratization

of data. So as in everyone could access information and really what the kind of blockchain is, is it's the democratization of value, as in value can be sent, seems not just value, but trust, trust, exactly. Yeah, which is that I think just as big, like those two together, it's it touches that,

it touches everything, such as everything, every industry, every industry. So I think like, I think there's some interesting, well, if you look at some use cases, right, like supply chain or remittances, like blockchain can basically, you know, simplify and stream my most things.

And so to go off to a slight tangent, I was in a Uber the other day, and, you know, this point being made a thousand times, but he was telling me he was, he was paying 10% of his salary to send it across with Western Union, whoever it was to, I think it was Kenya. And I said, you know what,

this is where I think things like die could be super interesting, right? Because actually, you don't want to send them BTC, because of the volatility. Sending pounds across. Sending so say, yeah, you say you send pounds across, but that pound converts to die, for example, to dollars,

or whatever it is. Yeah. And then actually, you then, you know, you get whatever a fraction of a fee taken off it, that then sits in a wallet in the family's wallet. And then at the moment, you could then say automatically lens that die out and get staked, where actually they start earning five,

six, seven percent on that money. I think that is super valuable, right? And that's where Bitcoin, because of its volatility at the moment, yes, you know, down the line, it might become a lot more kind of stable and obviously the evolution of money, et cetera, et cetera. But like, right now,

that for me, like a stable asset that is basically a digital representation on the dollar or other currencies, you know, solves like remittance problems, for example. So this is why, you know, I think there is more beyond just Bitcoin, but like, without Bitcoin, none of this happens,

right? Because it was the first, and you have to have something to peg everything back to and keep things secure. I think that's, that's the key is like, all this stuff. I think you're definitely right. All this stuff will happen. And more like stuff we can't think of, but you need that,

you need that solid base, and you need something that can be trust, because if something happened to Bitcoin, and it went, you know, there was, there was a catastrophic bug failure somehow, and it died, it would take years, I would almost say decades to build enough trust back in, in

another system. And I would also argue you can't build another system, certainly with the technology we have now that's anywhere near as secure, and anywhere near as trusted. So it's like, is mission critical is that you have that. But then it's really cool to have these things you're

talking about on the edges of it. And this thing, so like, so I use a browser called Brave browser. Yeah, no, so developed by the guy who I think invented JavaScript, and was one of the, let's say founders, or one of the kind of very senior people at Mozilla, right? And

brave, for example, super interesting, I actually use it. It's like, you know, it's got 10 million users, like it's actually got kind of traction in the market. And again, like, as a user, I shouldn't care the technology that underpins it. Everyone says, you know, like, if you go and ask someone,

like, what is blockchain? No one goes and asks you, what is the internet? But you use it, right? Yeah. And I think it should be the same. I don't think you should care as a user to get mass adoption. No one should no one cares how Uber works under the hood. No one should care,

well, not no one, but like, you know, for it to get most people, most people are to get mass adoption, like a product and this kind of comes back to you know, my professional kind of work life. Like a product or service has to be like more frictionless than it's kind of current

alternative. So if you look at Uber, Uber allows you to order and kind of get in an taxi much better than calling up your taxi rank waiting 30 minutes, etc, etc. Tinder is a good example. Like online dating profiles, you'd have to go filling out all this information,

blah, blah, blah. Tinder, one swipe less friction, right? And it should be the same, whatever gets built in this new world, it has to be a better experience. One swipe. 1,000 swipes, 1,000 swipes, right for me, zero back. So no matches. So any, no, they're not going to promote myself.

It turns into a dating chart. Probably any guys, probably any guys listening anyway. So that's true. BTC, like, yeah. Anyway, I'm looking for new friends as well. If anyone's out there, after this wants to, you know, anyone wants to swipe, right? Anyone wants to message me on

Twitter, talk about BTC and watch and please do actually on that point. And it's on your earlier point as well. Like the people in the space are awesome. Like I message, I find Twitter brilliant. Like, you know, there's a little bubble as well in terms of we all love it. And like,

we kind of talk about all this stuff and in general. But like, it's, like, it's kind of, people just love to chat about it. Because like, I think we're all still early in the industry. And we're in it because we're interested in it. We're not in it for like, you know,

other kind of reasons, I guess, you know, we all love what the potential future could look like in this space. And we feel like we're all in it together versus, you know, in other industries, if you, if you reach out to people, they might not be as kind of like a Canadian, right? So

I think that's another great thing is like the community. And then, but then again, like, the tribalism is strong, right? So if you're like, your life is money versus like, you know, BTC is hard money. It's the only money. I think, like, for me, personally, I don't care about these

arguments in terms of, I think actually, some of this tribalism is kind of helpful in a way, because actually people are so passionate about it. And actually, you know, it leads to kind of maybe potentially kind of more people getting involved and adoptions and rivalries and stuff.

But ultimately, I don't care about, you know, all of these kind of arguments and memes and stuff, but I just think the whole space, I'm bullish on the whole space. Yeah. And this is again, why I guess kind of for me, I think, because I'm bullish on the whole space, I think there's

interesting things that will come from, you know, built, I guess, you know, whether it's in the DeFi space or stuff that we just don't know about yet. And I think if you close your mind off to that, then that's dangerous, you know, because you think, okay, it's only going to be Bitcoin,

that's the only thing, you know, you close yourself up potentially to some super interesting stuff. And that's, I guess, why I'm trying to stay, you know, open on all avenues, because you just don't, I just know, I guess in my kind of what knows, well, as you can know that something or, but it's

super interesting stuff is happening here. And I don't, I don't know where it's, you know, what is going to be, I guess, where that's going to happen. At the moment, it's, it's BTC, for example, but like, there are some really interesting use cases in, you know, the traditional one,

not traditional, but the blockchain world. So I just, you know, I don't want to close my mind off to those things, because I think that is valuable. Yeah, my point, what you were just saying, I think you're absolutely right. And although I have, in terms of my investment, yeah, is 100%

Bitcoin, I'm not someone who has a problem with people experimenting. And like, all, all of the experiments, you know, if, if someone, if there are 1000 experiments, and one survives and does something useful, it's either going to be useful outside of Bitcoin. And that's great. And it's

useful for someone than great. Or it's something that will be integrated into Bitcoin anyway. So anything that's happening around the space, or just strengthens it. So I don't have a problem.

I think it's brilliant. And I think that if you do close your mind off to everything and say, everything is just like, nothing's ever going to be useful. I think that's a stupid thing to say, because then you just said that about Bitcoin as well. I think my concern with it is when promises

are sold to people, which is just going to wreck them. And I think that, you know, you are someone who has invested for a long time, you're somebody who understands this kind of, you know, I know, it's a new blockchain, but you know, you understand these sort of companies. And you're someone who

can look at it from, I mean, it's like, it's effectively the early stage technology investing, right, which is which is what you do. Yeah, which is, and it was super risky. Most of these things fail. Yeah. But that's not just in the kind of blockchain world that most startups, right?

I think, yeah, like as you say, we obviously had VC stuff. We had, yeah, we had the ICO boom in what 2017. And people got kind of wrecked on that. Yeah. And yeah, like, this is the thing like, and I'm, you know, I'm sure when the internet started, it was the same in terms of like,

you get these opportunists and chances coming in, right? And selling shit and like, you know, false promises and you get people taking advantage. Yeah. And I think that's what concerns me more than anything because the negative from that is that people will, you know, people will hear about

one of these Ponzi schemes or scams or something that's gone to zero. And then because they don't understand this space, they will then have that view of Bitcoin. And I think that's where it becomes negative is like someone gets their fingers burned because they invest in some shit. And then they

say, Oh, well, you know, Bitcoin's dead. And then they don't understand. And I think that a lot of the promises that were made are just straight up lies. And the ones that weren't straight up lies were just stupid. It was like, you know, I remember when I first got involved in this and it was like,

Oh, well, this is, you know, this is going to be the Bitcoin of China. And this is going to be at the time you're like, Oh, I get it like China has their own WeChat pay and all the different stuff.

So it makes sense. But then when you realize, well, no, this is global money, you're like, well, it knows no borders. So why would there be a Chinese one that doesn't make any fucking sense of stupid? And then there's the other ones where it's like, Oh, well, it's faster payments. And then

when you spent enough time, you're like, well, that's bullshit. And then it's, Oh, well, this is better for the environment because it's, you know, we're using proof of stake or we're using a mix of proof of stake and proof of work or we're using Tangle or yeah, that's bullshit. That Yeah,

DAG that was it decentralized and like a cyclical graph or something. I don't know if that's right, but it's something a lot of something like that. And all these things are just bullshit. So I think that's why with this podcast, I try and just say to people, I think the best way to come in is

even don't invest any money or invest a very small amount, buy some Bitcoin, yeah, start learning about this. So I would say the best way is to buy the buy some Bitcoin, because you've got skin in the game, right? Because skin in game suddenly sets shoots up 20, 30%, you know, okay, you know,

that's how you get interested because yeah, or like, or something on the line, something on the lines of our all, you know, a good thing to do, go and send your parents or friends some, you know, get to see that, let them see how it works and let them see what happens

with it and why it's better. But I think it's, it's a hard, it's a hard argument to make for a lot of the Western world because they don't see the problem. They don't see that fear money is a problem, right? Yeah. Until probably it's too late, but like, you know, they don't see the issues.

And again, you might sound a bit sensationalist, like saying some of these things, but like, if you look at like the, you know, most, a lot of the world fear money is, you know, doesn't work for them. No, doesn't work for them. No. And then also most people. Yeah, for most

people, you know, and they say, oh, well, it's, you know, it's, no one knows who invented it. It's anything around 11 years, whatever it is. Well, the Eurozone being around, well, 20 years.

Yeah. Yeah. Central Bank and Bend that. So, well, you could argue that money in its current form has only really been around since 1970s. And money's digital anyway. Yeah. So the other way, you know, it's not going to work because it's digital, but who backs it?

The government doesn't back it. Like, as in, like, you know, it's not backed by anything. Dumbest, dumbest argument, because like, yeah, money is not backed by gold either. Money is backed effectively, it is promised by the government, right?

But like, it's backed by militaries. Money is money by force. Yeah. And effectively, right. And then, but we're moving into a world, you know, occupied water, all this stuff. But where people don't trust, they don't trust corporates, they don't trust governments, they don't people. We're moving to a world where there's a lack of

trust. Yeah. So an asset or something that solves the trust problem. Quite valuable, quite valuable. Yeah. You know, and again, it's, it's that, it's governments printing away, you know, deflating their currencies, all the, all those type of stuff, asset prices,

the other things, like all of these things collectively coming together makes so much sense. Like you said, you said earlier, the perfect storm. It feels like it. Yeah, it does. It does feel like that perfect storm.

If only we, if only those miners had had come through the post. Yeah, we always tell them that. Yeah, yeah, go for it. So, I don't know, the year ago now, no, maybe not even that. So me and Max, we'll do both kind of like keen on space, loving the space, both kind of big fans of BTC.

And we thought, why don't we start mining some? So, you know, again, get more into the space. Maybe we do some, do some kind of business in the space. That's some good ideas, actually. Really good ideas. There's a Tesla on it. Yeah.

So we, we bought a couple of, they're at my, I think, no, it's 17. Maybe it's 19, 17. 17 is pro. Yeah. The top of the line. Yeah. But they were from like Jersey and the price is really good.

So actually, like, I'm going to give us some, like, fair or some credit here. Yeah. It did seem kind of too good to be true. They weren't like ridiculously cheap, but they were like cheaper than, basically, they were, they were in stock and they were pretty much out of stock everywhere else.

Yeah. And anyway, so we, I think, called and checked with the company and they're like, yeah, that's fine. You can come to our offices, you know, so it kind of seemed legit, but it's, we felt we were skeptical. Anyway, then I spoke to my credit card company at the time.

I was like, look, if I buy these on my card and it ends up being a fraud, can I get them like that? They were like, yeah, it's fine. So anyway, probably buy a couple of miners long story short, about a month later, they still weren't there. It ends up obviously being a scam.

Scam, obviously. Yeah, obviously. Anyway, long story short, got the money back. So it's fine. But, you know, I wish we were mining away right now. Yeah. And then obviously we spoke about the, obviously, the equation is, you know, the biggest cost is empowering it. Yeah. So we were obviously looking to alternative ways to

power it. I think we were going to move to Iceland or something on the stage or somewhere. Is that, you know, the cost of powering it and calling it, I think, are the main two, right? Yeah, you need to, from what I understand, you need to be working at like two to four cents power at the moment to be competitive. Yeah, to be competitive.

Which obviously like doesn't work in the UK. But then the other thing we were saying was to use the heat that's generated from the miners to then heat something else, yeah. Because then you're actually, that's something that is, that is a byproduct you're

actually using to make some revenues. So we're thinking, you know, even whatever happens with the price, we could use that heat to heat a squinkle or a greenhouse or something like that. Yeah. Genius idea. Yeah. It is a genius idea. Yeah. But anyone wants to, again, comment on that.

Yeah. Good or bad. Open to that. Yeah. Or investment. We're investing that. But no, or can you actually find us some miners? Yeah. I actually got one before. I got one before. So yeah, I bought one.

Got it in from China, paid like 150 quid in post and packaging and all the, all the import pieces and BTC. Yeah. No, shout out BTC. Yeah. But I got it. Wait, I'm just going to put my hat on. Oh, yeah. You've got your BTC hat. Do you not worry about your offset with that?

I've got, I've got no BTC stuff at all because I'm like hyper paranoid. Hence the max by bit. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I can't see you, can they? No one can see you. They should be like a perfect. You do look, we can put a photo up.

You do look good, isn't it? You could ignore my ugly face and you could just, you could just look at the hat. I don't know how that one's swiping around Tinder. Maybe I should put this on my profile. You should put that on your profile. And then, well, I think what my, my opener is

usually about BTC or digital asset in general. Cause if you're not aligned on that, then we got nothing to watch your profile. But nothing else is about my character that I can talk to them now.

Profile pictures just plan B's stop to flow. Yeah. And if they get that, and if they, if they match and be like, Oh my God, I love this 95% like co integration, whatever it's like, they're like, Oh, I can't wait for the hardening. I'm literally, I think I like send the the ring emoji, like,

you know, the diamond ring. Yeah. Cause I'm like, marry me. It's worrying that, you know, but you got to be a light, you can, you got to be interested. Like if we are both interested in these things, and I've actually met a couple. Really? Well, I said, Mac spoken to, I'm not converted to them.

They're actually blokes. Probably. They definitely men and they're definitely in their mum's base. Maybe that's why they didn't want to meet me. There's definitely. Yeah. Okay, that's good.

Definitely. Well, it's not good. That's what this weird, isn't it? Like we're saying about, we're saying about like, how in this industry, people are very open and like, it's amazing the context that you can speak to. Yeah. Like it's, it is weird.

But there's almost no women in this industry. I don't know, I don't know whether it's the risk aspect or whether it's just like, techy, nerdy engineers and more. Probably. It's more like, male dominated, but it is like, you'll go to a meetup and there will be maybe,

maybe one female in three, four hundred males. That bad. That's, that's pretty much what I've started like, get women into BTC. Well, if it aligns with like, it aligns with any person. Like, I don't understand. Actually, we at, we at work are very good with that. So we're doing like,

if you code first girls, we're doing a few of these things like women tech and stuff because yeah, it's important. Yeah. It's what, I don't know how, but maybe it's a different approach. Maybe it's like, maybe talking more about how this can actually help people in society or maybe it's,

maybe it's talking about like savings and that kind of stuff more than risk side of it. Maybe, because I think that's something that's missed quite a lot is like, this in many ways can be used as a savings technology. You know, someone can put five pan a month in, you know, or, or,

or they can say, I'm going to give up smoking and whatever like cigarettes, stupid money now, like 1250 or something. I think in the UK, someone was, one of my mates was saying to me that day was like, oh yeah, it's like something like that, like 1250. What for a packet of cigarettes?

Like, yeah, that could go to be. Yeah. So if you're smoking 20 a day, yeah, you could be putting that money into BTC and save your life probably. It doesn't have to be that people are putting their life savings in this stuff. And I think maybe that appeals more rather than like, we're all crazy

about the stuff and we do stupid things, but not, I don't think stupid, but like people would argue crazy. I think that pushing that narrative of savings and slowly just, you know, stacking stats, just putting a little bit away is, I think that's really, I think, I think, I think, yeah,

I agree. I think the best thing you can do is, I think this has been shown as well, my statistically that rather than trying picking tops and bottoms and, you know, trading, literally put in a hunt, whatever, whatever proportionally works for you, 100 pound a month, 50, like a few hundred, like

whatever works for you in your life, but just putting a few, like a bit a month, 5%, 10% whatever is of your salary that you can afford, but on an automatic buy, yeah, and just forget about it, and literally don't look like that, easy to say, right? But don't look at the price and look at

it in five ten years time. Yeah. But it is easy to say, we are humans, and we are, this is why I'm machines over humans. Psychologically, we are machines, yeah, short humans, 100%, because like we are psychologically weak, basically. Yeah, we are useless. Literally looking at the price tick,

like on a one minute chart, one second chart almost, like, because like, ultimately, like, you ought to take that long term view that, you know, there's stuff that I bought in 2016, I still hold, like, and again, like, I don't mean, you know, if I bought equities or whatever,

and they crashed 90%, I'd like to think I could hold that, but you know, it's weird, like, it's, it's, there's, I think that's just how you're going to look at it. You've got to just buy it, hold it and try and figure it about it. I think that's probably something that's learned from

property as well. That that's something that we, you know, if you've been involved in property, you understand that there are these cycles, you understand that there's going to be a downturn, and it's like, I remember when I first started getting involved, and some of the best advice

that I ever received was, as long as you can stay on the barrel, you'll be fine. You know, just don't fall off, don't have to sell, just never have to sell. Thought, yeah, you never want to be a forced seller, right? Because, you know, you might be forced, so you take on to like, leverage,

you got to, you know, mortgage rates, all this type of stuff, you're going to be selling at the bottom. Yeah, and I think that's what happens with people with $500, a re-mortgage, or put it out on a credit card or something stupid, and then pile in at right at the top, and then they don't understand

what they're buying, and then it drops in half, and they ship themselves, and also they've been talking a big game to all their mates about how they're going to buy a Lambo and this and that, and then everyone, every time the price drops, all people want to send is like, "Oh, how's BTC?"

How are you getting on? When moon. Yeah, so, and then they ship themselves and sell right at the bottom, and then that's it, but it's the same with every asset, right? And it's human cycle, and I think this one's only just in cycles, because like, basically everything has a cycle, the property,

equities, all of these things, like Bitcoin has a cycle, and I think like, if you take the step back and start to understand the cycle, I think then you get a lot of comfort, because actually you start to understand that these 18, 90% swings either way are just part of the bigger trend, right? And

it's the same thing with, and we're saying stocks around, just don't feel right, because, you know, cyclically, like with a late cycle, all these things are saying they should drop at some point, so like that's why, you know, when other people, you know, you might be missing out at the moment,

but like, it's the same with BTC, like we are early, like every time, you know, history often, but is it often rhymes, but never repeats or something like that? Like, if it's really very rhymes, yeah, and like, if you look back, it's dropped at 80, 90%, I think, was it three, four times now,

yeah, over its lifetime, and they have been the best buying opportunities ever, but again, it's very difficult as a human with a, you know, with a mind to go and be like, okay, well, I'm going to go and buy it now, because logically, that makes all sense, but you know, psychologically,

yeah, that's a, yeah, it's a difficult thing to do. And it doesn't matter how, how strong your thoughts, thoughts are on the fundamentals, like, I'd be lying if, if I said, when we would write down at like two and a half thousand, and I'm buying, and, and, and I'm thinking, oh, and I'm going

through, like, I'm, I'm lying there, and it's one o'clock in the morning, and I can't sleep, and I'm thinking, right, which is part of load more money in, is this the right thing to do, and I'll go through it, I'm like, right, fundamentals are better than they've ever been,

it makes sense that, you know, taking a look at it at the macro lens, yes, this all makes sense, there's a reason that you're doing this, there's more network security that users are going up, yeah, like long-term holders aren't so long, long-term stuff, but, but you still, that little voice

in the back of your head, or not even little, is going, you fucking idiot, you wrong, and there's that, there's that voice in the back of your head, and it's really hard to ignore it, it's really hard to just actually look at the, the fundamentals and, and think rationally, when, when things are

down, and then the other way as well, when it's pumping, you're going, oh, I should have bought more, or you look at your account, and there's a meaningful sum of money there, you're like, well, that could change my life, I've got to sell one, you know, it's hard, yeah, it's just, that's,

this comes back to my fidelity point earlier, you know, best performing portfolios are from people who have forgot their password or have died, because actually that, not tinkering with anything, you know, you go and cook a soup, or you go and cook something like, whatever, that you

shouldn't touch, you go and touch, because you're, you're a human, yeah, and it's, it's hard, yeah, but like, again, like, try and take that long-term view, but, you know, you're not just in this for the money, you're in this because, you know, it's a complete change in the world, basically,

you know, it's a hard chance to be part of something bigger than ourselves, show, you know, I think super interesting. And I don't think we will ever get this opportunity again. No, I don't, I don't know, when, how often do we get these things, you know? We do, yeah, never. Yeah,

once a lifetime, once a lifetime, you could argue, well, the, the change of, there's something becoming global money, you could argue, not even once in a lifetime, like, once in history, like, once ever. Well, you said, didn't you use the best performing asset class ever? Yeah, and this

is the thing, like, if you, even if you ignore fundamentals, like, if, like, if you look at, I think, is it the price highs each year, basically, it ignores the swings. Yeah. And like, 200, I think 235%, like, compound annual return, or whatever it is, like, every single year,

that is 235%, right? You've got to see that, like, that takes into accounts and highs and lows. But if you are any person in the world, you just look at that, 235% a year on your money, like, you have to put some money in that, like, ignore everything else, even if you

think it's a Ponzi scheme, just put it in it, because 200, 35% a year, like, why would you not? Well, it's, yeah, there's just, well, I always said, there's never been anything like it, no, probably never will be again, right? It's crazy. All right, I think, because we're absolute

losers, we could chat all day about this, but we should probably think about wrapping out, we've been rapping on for ages, terribly boring and bored now. Yeah, people are just like, they've probably already switched off. They've probably tuned out. They probably heard me,

and they're like, nah. Yeah, they do it every episode with me, they get, oh, that's my plan, I guess. I keep thinking there's going to be someone else, but, yeah, for anyone who is one listener, who's also one Tinder writer, Alex, talking about Bitcoin, he's attending to be a

female. Yeah, that's fine. Is there anything you want to, anything you want to wrap up with, any sort of, what, if you can leave my listeners with one point, because, like I said, at the beginning of this interview, you are one of the only people that I listen to, and I respect your

opinions, that I know, and, you know, I'm close to, and I think that people can benefit a lot from listening to your thoughts. Is there anything you want to, well, I guess people listening are probably, you know, BTC kind of avid followers anyway, but if they aren't, or if they're just

thinking about investing, you know, please just put some money in, like, you know, get off, you know, to kind of steal, get off, get off zero, please put some money in. And then also, I would say, please don't close your mind off to other blockchain use cases. Okay, and if people want to reach

out and ask you about, so probably Twitter, I've forgotten my handle, but I think it's, I think it's a bessent, essentially. Yeah, I'll link it. Yeah, if you can link that, that's awesome.

Or like, just feel free to kind of reach out to me, or LinkedIn, or any of those places, like, I'm super kind of keen to talk to anyone, whatever your view, because again, I think it's important to be open to kind of other people's views, whether you're only Bitcoin, whether you're

no Bitcoin, whether you're no blockchain, whether you're whatever. So please do reach out to me. I'd love to chat. Okay, and any projects or anything that you can talk about or want to talk about?

Yeah, so like, I think I've got some kind of super exciting stuff in the pipeline that it's probably worth me potentially coming on again to talk about, because yeah, I'm working on some stuff like in the space that will only be in the space that I will kind of want people to know

about. So I think I'll come on again. But it's all going to be how shash right now. Well, potentially, I don't know if that's harsh or anything. You can say no. Reach out to me online and we can discuss.

There's nothing, all legitimate businesses, but yeah, just some stuff that I think. Yeah, I mean, I'm excited about it. It's in the space. Yeah, I'll kind of happily talk to people about it. But I'd like to come on again. When you're, you know, raking the followers and

livelessness in, and the sponsors, yeah, I probably won't be able to get on just just flocking. Yeah, I'll be kind of knocking the door. Please let me get that on the show. Yeah, always welcome. It's always nice to have you happy one and we'll definitely get you back on

and hear about what you're doing. Oh, the hat's going on. Right, we'll wrap it up there. Thanks. Thanks, mate. Thank you.