EP21 Bitcoin podcast with Kieran Parker Moroney.

Welcome back to the bit by bit podcast. In today's episode I speak to Kieran Parker Maroney. It was my first time speaking with Kieran and I really enjoyed this episode. We chatted for a while before we started recording and Kieran has some really interesting views on things. I met him through a mutual

friend of ours who's actually been on the podcast before. Alex, it was a think three or four episodes back so if you've missed that one do go back and have a listen and I'm going to have both of them on together maybe two or three episodes from now anyway. Before we jump in I just wanted to say thank you very

much to everyone who's written a review for me and for all the people who've reached out and asked me questions. I love hearing from people and very happy to chat or help if I can in any way. So thanks again and I hope you enjoy the episode. Hi Kieran, thanks for joining me today. I met you through Alex who was

on I think three or four episodes ago. We've just had a long chat obviously before jumping on. We've already covered some really interesting topics but if you can just yeah as I say introduce yourself to the listeners please. Yeah hey yeah well thanks for having me on. I'm excited to be here. I'm Kieran Parker

only. On Twitter I'm @blockchain_rec so I'm just a fellow Bitcoin and blockchain enthusiast and I know like you say we were connected to Alex so I kind of came across the tech in 2012 now when I was working in town and I think I was telling you a little bit about it before the podcast. I sat up and account I

thought yeah I read a story actually about Silk Road as a lot of people have done and I think that to me was Bitcoin and I thought huh that's really interesting and looked a bit more into it and I was like yeah I could see where this could be really useful just in life in general and I and I went in I

set up an account on an exchange and I thought yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna buy some and for every reason with work in life I got distracted and it kind of went to the back of my mind and then I came back a little bit later. I think off the top of my head it was kind of early 2015 and I thought right I saw a few

other stories and I was like yeah now I'm I'm interested in this now what was that company that I set up with I want to buy some and I went in my emails and found it when I was Google typed it in and it was Mt. Gox and came up with every thing that I unfolded it's like my anecdotal story to people is how I on

paper would have had you know some some great gains to hold on to but I would never have seen them especially back then because I wasn't aware of the different options for you know for kind of keeping custody I wasn't aware of ledgers or trezor or any of that I would have just left it on the exchange and

been in Egypt so it was I think a blessing in disguise because it kind of led me into a deeper dive around the tech and what your different options and protections are and then I kind of got more invested you know rather than being put off by it it just needed and a fuel to fire so that's how I kind of ended

up coming across it I think we all have these these these weird and wonderful stories but yeah it's a brief a brief intro so so when when you did that and you were gonna pile the money in did you then do the calculation and look at that number and go oh that's what I would have had what did you not allow

yourself to do it I had a time and as in initially I was working as a broker in the city and so I kind of would always be doing similar cowls in my head and I had a rough idea and even the rough idea made me want to cry slightly so I never allowed myself to pursue it any further than that yeah yeah that would be

painful it's my it's my in kind of rags to riches story that never happened but yeah like you said so if it was empty cocks you wouldn't have got it anyway most likely and so maybe these things happen for a reason and from our little conversation that we had before jumping on the podcast it sounds

like you have similar abuse to me and that your investment now will probably do very similar anyway yeah it's a I think we're all we're all here for the long term and think this is something that can be properly well-changing so it's sometimes in the grand scheme with anything with a big picture you think

you know two years it's not it's not the biggest deal when you're when you're holding yeah exactly so after that did you step away for a while and then come back to it and kind of not too long I just was always keeping an eye on things and reading different articles online and and I was busy with it but obviously

other bits of work and I just would kind of dip in and buy a bit more I was kind of always keeping an eye on it in the background but I wasn't too plugged into the to the sector I didn't kind of realize what a vibrancy no I want Twitter at the time or anything like that and then obviously happened to

mention it to to Alex or he did to me I can't remember exactly and we both were like oh you're interested I think Alex and to me actually like you heard of this you know Bitcoin stuff I'm really interested in I didn't do it for a while I was like yeah yeah I am actually yeah I am and then then it kind of spiraled

out of control from then and it was I think I became a bit more active in a sense than when I had another person who was kind of local to me who had shared that interest I found the same with Alex as well because I've only got two other mates who are interested in it and I'm sure you found a simple thing like once

it clicks and once you wrap your head around it you just you want to explain and talk about this stuff all the time because you know if we're right it is world-changing and no one gives a fuck in normal life no one cares you just kind of you feel like you want to chat to people about it and you you end up

just having to shut up when people don't get it I would say not if they're not kind of aware of the theories behind or the underlying tech or just just any of that I think it's really easy to sit there and look like the tin foil hat person because you're kind of off some some grandiose ideas and they kind of

lift you down there with the blank stare of confusion and where you kind of get around people that get it it's it's a completely different form of conversation but I think that's part of the nature of it isn't it like you know you speak to people and tell them and maybe they don't get it there but they'll go home

and Google a bit or have a search around and kind of dive in there and you know might be every 50 people you speak to maybe one or two ends up interested but that's you know that's better yeah exactly are you still working you still working in the city doing some banking and bits and pieces or you know

I left I left in 2012 13 now I think it was yeah when you're doing property and property development a bit and and dabbling around with that and so that that's been one of my focuses for the last few years which interestingly was another reason I kind of I ended up hearing about blockchain a

few times just from some other people who were talking about it in respect to property and you know land registry titles and then referencing in different places I think Haiti was one of them about you know exploring how they could put land red on there for proof of ownership and again it kind of just

re sparked more interesting to into the tech and then diving back into Bitcoin and even hearing about you know people trying to transact buying property for Bitcoin and it was it was just fascinating so no I didn't stay in the city I am I couldn't kind of keep up with the 80 to 100 hour work week life I'm

on the type one that I met as well and I you know I kind of value my health so it's it's tough I enjoyed a lot of the work but it wasn't it wasn't the right time and you know that market was was really suffering at the time which feels kind of relevant at the moment

2008 all of us had lived many lifetime so yeah it feels well I was I was a little bit too young in 2008 to really understand it the only reason I sort of vaguely understood it was actually my first because again we're chatting about this I was also in property and my first ever property I bought was I

completed on it five days before the brush came and then I at the time at the time I went into my office and I said to my boss I said Brad is this is this bad because I was just turned 17 at the time and I said is this is this

bad anyway yeah you're fucked I went oh no and I didn't understand why it was so bad yeah and I've been so excited about buying the property I was like yeah anyway there's money in here because I'd been going to all these investor seminars with a friend of mine who'd been doing it for years and so I got already into it

and then it's just like immediate slap down yeah it's but but now I was sort of after years of messing around with it now I look at what's happening in the world and I'm like oh dear this is my first thing I said like they feel all who at the time but there's always these silver linings or lessons to learn

aren't there like learning that 70 80 is so invaluable I mean I had a kind of similar thing not not one of my first ones but just timing why is that probably made you laugh or I finished a project and I went to list it and about four days before I finished it was the Brexit vote which happened yeah you kind of

went to market like that okay that's not ideal but yeah you know through all of those things it there there's a lot of lessons that you learn on there and teachable moments and and fun enough that that ends up kind of bringing you back to to Bitcoin so so what was it I mean we I think we all sort of fall

down the rabbit hole and then we get you get to a point where this just makes complete sense and there's sort of not any arguments left or not any more fud left but what can you remember one thing that really made you sort of like a switch flipped and you just went oh wow okay I get this can you remember or

maybe there was several yeah there were there were several but one that sticks out and I think it's one that a lot of us kind of go back to time time again but was was custody and when I was reading about it initially as well was this idea you know I kind of reread the article a few times and ended up

exploring around it because I was like wait so it's mine you know I don't need a bank I don't need any either e there's no one that can kind of interfere and freeze your funds or stop you from doing anything and that kind of blew my mind as something that can function in the way it does and then obviously you have

all this the underlying tech that then makes it something that's possible to use for transactions in a in a trustless in quotation marks way so that kind of just immediately fascinated me because I felt like it was it was such a departure from anything else I'd seen and granted I wasn't active in any of the kind of

cypherpunk world or or at the time I wasn't aware of work that you know people like had done in the sector from years and years before in the 90s but if so for me it was it was all brand new information and then equally I think for a lot of people it's been combined to form Bitcoin was but I found that

fascinating and I was like wait so I I can just completely eliminate any sort of bank any sort of middleman there and I'm able to to remain in custody you know have it as mine all the time which I thought it's fascinating so I could walk you know borderless in that sense I could walk across a country or fly

somewhere and I can have two million pounds essentially in my head without without any sort of issue I found that really grabbed my attention it was just fascinating but it's matter like it is that is like magic isn't it really yeah I wonder actually I just realized just now that you know saying before I only

have a couple of mates who are interested in this and I don't really know anyone who it clicks with weirdly the only people and now I include you as one of them that understand this of anyone I know are involved in property either commercial or resi and I wonder if it's something to do with because I

like personally I always used to think I own my property if I own bricks and mortar I own that which is actually wrong I've realized but but I used to think oh that is why yeah exactly it's like well can I can I collect rent from my tenant oh no they don't have to pay you oh okay well do I own it no no no the

management company can do what they want and they can rip you off and then take your eyes out if they want to and put all these sort of it is not true ownership but I always thought it was and it's just sort of I wonder whether there is a link there because it's people who want to really own something

and I wonder whether people in the property markets will slowly click and understand this stuff maybe maybe well I was just thinking about it in that context of you know if you're in property and you're dealing with with banks and finance a lot and you're suddenly coming from the point of view of someone who's actually working in a

bank so I think you're maybe a bit more open to seeing the issues all the time whereas if you working in a in a bank again not to tie everyone with the same brush but there's a vested interest in keeping that system working quite often so yes you know there's that element of it as well where you're probably more

familiar with that and looking at a system like this and going like oh yeah that is that is ownership and that is something that's interesting and and yeah maybe in the psychology of a lot of people who own property there is a desire to to own something in a sense so you know we look at that bricks and mortar and

that you say initially you look that's that's mine and you know I own that and then you kind of realize you don't granted this is a digital version but there is you know it comes out there's a lot of libertarian politics in the space and it does come under like a property rights view so that's an

interesting point I've not thought of it in that in that wake I mean I am funnily enough I did just see a company that was launched the other week as far as I'm aware I was like I'll go cap real estate and they're real estate broke rich but I think they accept everything in crypto and oh really and yeah it is

really cool to see it was a guy called Mac still indoors who I think based on the states and their website is live I think it's I'll go cap.io I think it is but let me find yeah I'll go cap.io and it was just interesting to see again like a company that's kind of pushing the boundaries and you know you can pay for

probably you know large large properties in premium areas using and I just again like you just talk about property thing it just makes me think of that where again I'm like oh yeah that's interesting it's another person in and around that sector doing something around blockchain yeah and the other thing

that I think might tie I mean because I've tried to explain a few a few people I know who are heavily into property did very well from it and I've sat down with them and said look you really need to just listen and try and wrap your head around this because I think it's gonna be big and I've got nowhere with

them at all they just they cannot wrap their head around it but I think that the other thing that property people might understand is you know you have the Peter shifts of this world and buff it and people like that allow well it's a non-productive asset so it's useless yeah the truth is that actually especially

like places like London you're lucky if you're actually getting one or two percent yield and when you actually then think well what's inflation more actually it's not a productive asset so although people at a lot of the time people think is but when you start adding in all the calculations of keeping in

love with the regulations the times that is not rented especially with all what's going on now with this virus and how many people are going to have places sat there they're paying they're paying their council tax they're paying their mortgage they've got repairs to do all the time they've got management company

fees if you sell the property you got a load of taxes you got all this all this stuff that I think people don't really fully take into account especially when we've had 40 something years of just number go up you know with with all bricks and mortar and it's been so easy for people it's almost like not that

they don't deserve it you know they've seen that there's a trend and they've jumped on it and they've gone right well this is how you know this is how it makes some money but I think when times get hard suddenly they start to see that well maybe this isn't the best business we've just been riding away even I think

maybe some of those as as times get harder which it seems like they're going to maybe that's when they start to go maybe it's not such a stupid idea to have the non-productive assay you know especially if it I mean Alex was saying on here the other day it's something like doing an average of what 280% or

something like that per year or an average something like that it's pretty good yeah yeah I mean when you compare it to anything else is like you said I mean even with property like you say in London it's I see a lot of people accepting one or two percent you know if you're really aggressive you might be

of some areas to six seven generally I'm talking resi here and and yeah I mean yeah three or four used to be widely accepted but it's like if you're out performing inflation by a couple percent it's not something that's gonna get you excited and jumping out of bed is it whereas you look at this as an unknown

and equally I think like on that point it's something that again for me was interesting and I'm sure for you and a lot of people was this was this idea of protection against inflation having this hardback you know I mean especially at the moment I feel like it's it's hugely relevant and we've all seen the money

printer go brr mean it's such a good name it's so funny but it's so real as the thing you know and you're going around saying you know the feds printing I what I mean one number they've set line near six trillion and you know they're on record basically saying we can just print as much as we need and like I

mentioned I think before the call I saw Rick Burton on Twitter mentioned something about it and you know how many people are just really not aware of what is going on so when you when you look at that do you think well okay you know Bitcoin is 21 million it's you know a hard-capped supply you've got you

know arguably like strong protection against inflation and and what could very easily become hyperinflation just again becomes an interesting asset to put money into it's it's just getting is it's trying to explain it to people I think is the hard thing isn't it I mean how long did it take you to I mean

obviously you know you already you in finance you you're in banking you're already and property so you you already have much more of an idea of all this stuff than the average person anyway but did it still take you a while to wrap your head around it oh yeah definitely I mean I you know I say it with no shame

in the sense of I'm still learning I'm always learning right with them always keep an open mind and look at new things and I never think that you're your past being able to learn so I but it took me a long long time because I think there's there's a lot of aspects to it that are like conceptual and I think

certain people need it in different ways you know I found really helpful seeing a blockchain demo of how it all worked together as the chain online and how if I changed anything on that on any block it would change everything after that and start to toy around with that made me understand the relationship to things

but before I would read it and I where I would work with people is that I understood it in principle but maybe not in practice so it made sense to me in the words of his reading and how things worked but I didn't feel confident in going like oh yeah no I get that and yeah you know I think people have to have

some sort of level of diligence to look and to explore different resources and kind ways that it's explained well to them so you know I think I know there's there's a bunch of different online courses free and otherwise whether it's on Coursera or B9 Labs is a is a cool place or coin intelligence I think do

some like there's there's a bunch aren't there but just exploring and kind of rooting around it took me a good while before I felt I had a somewhat comfortable grasp fully you know when I first got interested in it it was because I understood the claims that they were making and how that could be useful from

I get a custody protection against inflation transferability all these different things I thought okay yeah I get that and if it can live up to that that's brilliant whereas then actually getting to a level of confidence who would understanding that it did take me a while because I think it's for me at

least it's so generally far removed from from those things that you see you have to start in some senses from from zero and build up you know I think I spoke to a lot of people who are very gifted engineers and developers and who you think in that way and our structure in there I think a lot of those

people seem to grasp it very quickly as well and I think more of the general public which you know in a sense I'd count myself in there is is trying to break it down into sometimes more visual but maybe even sometimes more simply worded way to explain it and then build up your knowledge from there when you're

so invested in the sector like we all are I think it can be really easy to not realize how much specific language you're using to the industry and people are looking ways over and you're like oh god yeah I need to explain that like it's you know what's a hash function or these kind of things you're talking

about chart 256 and people are looking at you like what is that a band or what I don't know yeah yeah it's sort of easy to forget how much you've learned in a short term as well because you know if you become obsessive about something which I think pretty much everyone who's on Bitcoin Twitter we are obsessive

about this stuff which we're on here all the time you know like personally I think for the last two and a half three years there hasn't been one single day that I haven't spent a minimum of six to eight hours researching listening to podcast tinkering you know setting up a node doing whatever it is there's not

one day even when I'm on my deathbed sick as a dog I'm still in bed I'm listening to podcast and doing whatever and then I look back and go what did I actually understand I sort of yeah you hear words or you sort of roughly constring things together but you haven't fully understood it and it's easy to

forget how challenging it is to put why is the monetary policy so good what is wrong with the current system and then you know why is it actually here how does the cryptography work what is open source I didn't really even understand what open source software was you know when I first started learning about this

and tying it all together to a point where you you really understand it takes so many hours you then try and do an elevator pitch for ten minutes to someone you're talking about all these obscure concepts and they're just like what it's hard you know I know it's that kind of cliché thing or you don't understand

something well until you can explain it to a child kind of concept yeah I'm massively paraphrasing but yeah I get that and I think you know maybe there's an element of I understand things but I've seen people explain it in ways where I go yeah like that's that's so beautifully simple and that's helped me

massively but I think you have to get to quite a high level of understanding and thinking to be able to tie it all together in those whether it's analogies or just different examples that you use so it's like they when you're then trying to give a ten-minute elevator pitch of ten thirty second one or whatever to

people it can be really tricky you start again but it's like really to the ledger but it's you know it's not because there's this and there's that and and all of a sudden you're you're thinking oh well that's points really important and so that I'd better go into more detail with that but then yeah it

leads you down the rabbit hole massively doesn't it so it's it's tricky but yeah I mean slight tangent sorry I know pulled you off there but it did it took me a while before I felt more comfortable and you know I think I'd say it does for a lot of people because you said there's so many different angles and so many

different parts to it whether that's from like a philosophical point of view political view to to the actual underlying technology which is part of the beauty of it I guess but it equally means it's not something you can typically just sit down and you sit there and do a heavy read for two hours and go yeah I've got

it yeah absolutely that is the barrier but it does seem things are getting much it's much easier to point people in the right direction and you know like we were speaking the other day because you were setting up your node and I said I'll go on to that BTC did you see oh actually you did see because I saw you

shared it today yeah they they banned his YouTube BTC sessions for anyone listening hopefully it goes back on but it's really this great guys on some amazing videos helping people with some of like the technical aspects setting up wallets and and nodes and all sorts of things and it's really really good

content and he's just been taken off YouTube do we have any idea why I so as far as I could see what he was saying on Twitter he hadn't he'd got some some warning about a video he'd posted a year ago which felt right red flag in the sense of that it was nothing you know it's been up for a year and it's like right

we'll post that but what I could briefly see when I was looking he said you're meant to get three warnings and then and then I think it can get to that point but he literally had one and was taken off so I don't really know and it's weird he's looking through the content as well it's just really helpful stuff from

what I've seen yeah no video that you do is brilliant you know 25 minutes long really clear really helped yeah you know as soon as I then went on Twitter and I asked him a few years questions and he replied within 10 seconds basically and and you're sitting there thinking I last brilliant for the community so I've

seen a few tweets about crypto YouTube being you know or somewhat being preceded being targeted at the moment from tone and values I think got taken off as well yeah so I don't I'm less relevant yeah but still you're kind of looking going okay I don't really understand the motivation for this it all

seems a bit a bit peculiar you could end up going down some serious conspiracy yeah rabbit rabbit holes to think about why but it just seems bizarre and bizarre timing does like you say over the last few days we obviously been discussing it and interacting a bit more with some of his content to see that this morning

yeah I retweeted it and quoted YouTube a couple of people saying what you know what's going on I don't think anyone's got any answer yeah but it's concerning and it kind of speaks to I guess the decentralized world that a lot of people ourselves included are interested in growing because it just it's concerning

when you can be de-platformed at the clip of a finger like that I understand it's not that you for a lot of different people but from what I saw the guys putting up really good helpful videos to learn and about crypto and be educated and discussing different viewpoints so it's a shame because the reason I got

onto that is I think it's getting easier I think things are getting more accessible definitely from when I started getting into this stuff it's so much more accessible I am because people are sort of they're getting better and better at explaining things they're getting better and better at you know

these videos are so helpful because you know some people are more audio visual you don't want to just read through a load of text and people are I'll just jump on github and read through this and it's like well hold on not everyone's a developer and you know it needs to be accessible to normal

people so those sort of videos are so useful it's it's such it's such an amazing thing to happen and it takes so much time I know from doing this podcast you know it takes so much time messing around and doing your editing and uploading the things and it costs money and for this guy it will have

taken him hours and hours to do that content and that's at the end of the day like that's his livelihood and it's just from someone snapping their fingers they've just gone right yeah you're done you were taking you off and and he spent years I think he said on their four years building up that channel and he

spent God knows how many hours doing research and and filming and then they just click their fingers and done it's very this is worrying and it troubles me to see that it's not it's a time-consuming thing to do and it's helpful for people across the spectrum so it's frustrating also when these

things are done with no rhyme or reason and it kind of drives home I think the importance for people of again custody in a sense being able to control where your message comes from and who's sharing it I saw someone mentioned to him about why don't you know have you got the video say why don't you just put them

up somewhere and I think along the lines of yes I can do that but obviously I've built up following and that's difficult part to replace and it's frustrating when you've spent a lot of time and invested a lot of time in doing that to then have that taken away from you because you don't necessarily have

that direct relationship with them and say right with me I mean on the note circling back to what you've said now about it being more accessible because of people like BTC sessions and others like I couldn't agree more even just looking at the general UX now I think in a lot of places there's still a long

way to go was discussing this with the venture fund the other day as one of the areas however when I look at if I wanted to tell someone to go and buy a bit point now how easy that is and how quickly they can do it in a way that's not intimidating it seemed a lot more normal to people who are familiar with

buying equities or doing anything like that it removes that that barrier to entry now as well which I think again just can spark interest with people because it's easy to be involved and once you own something I think people are a lot more incentivized to go and do research I don't know it works that way

you'll probably I mean did quite a bit before you ended up buying anything but no actually no no I normally am I normally am but I was I was really heavily involved in in my art and I was just in in a headspace of all day every day I was painting and the bloke who told me about Bitcoin a really good friend of

mine I said let's just sit down let's sit down for dinner and talk about this because I've seen it I've seen him talk about it on Facebook or whatever it was and I said look we need to scratch over dinner I don't have any time here's the money just buy it for me it sounds cool and so he was like and he said to me

well no I'm not gonna do that he said I know you well enough because we're really close friends I know you well enough I know this is so up your street I can't tell you how much you're gonna love this you need to do some research you need to buy here's a referral link is how you do it and he made me buy it

myself and and do the research and I'm very glad he did yeah but yeah I just went yeah just try money in there because it sounds cool that was it but yeah yeah but yeah but then you did the deep dive after but I do I do yeah do excited things having it that much bit easier I mean you know you look at the

mobile wallet options you have now and I like ones I've been just looking at and toy around with not necessarily using but you know from the ID and I know a Toro does one you've got that wallet Toshi and there's just there's so many that are so easy to just set up you know shapes you're doing doing some cool

stuff I I think back to you know yeah five years ago and how much of that has changed from an accessibility point of view you know that's huge I feel I can tell parent or or a friend of a friend's parent now you know how to do it almost over phone and they'd be able to just set up and and own something very

intuitively I think are huge for the sector as well because not everyone's gonna just jump in and immediately understand the tech or or why it's peeling but you know if they if they're interested in it because they've seen it on the news and they've seen it as an asset and they've seen it increasing

value and that kind of sparks their interests then you know great it gets them involved and like I said before I think when people own something I could similar to a property or you know a lot more invested in the upkeep of the industry and learning more about it in the meantime who I think yeah it's that

skin in the game isn't it it's you sort of have something to protect and you're like once you're and also once you're like okay well if it moves in the way that we think it's gonna move and has historically and I've got X amount and invested then that means that potentially that could be worth and you

start calculating those numbers and then it suddenly becomes a lot more interesting you're like oh well hold on am I right yeah yeah I think you're absolutely right the first thing people should do is buy a small amount you know obviously it'd be really irresponsible just to say like oh yeah go

and pile up the money even though that's what I was gonna do but like it's it is irresponsible and stupid you should understand what you invest in but once once they've got even if it's tiny even if it's 20 quid it's still like a little bit of fun and a bet and it's something makes you want to learn yeah

exactly I think people people are more interested I say when they have skin in the game you can't generally change that it just makes people more focused so definitely I feel like that's where we should preface that with like previous it was like oh there's this is not investment advice and yeah yeah none of

this is investment advice but it's interesting nonetheless I mean and then you combine it with just so many other factors when I look at the potential it has I mean I was having a discussion slash not argument but you know he did debate with them with a friend's dad actually the other week about it dad's

of the best yeah well I'm one of the he's a great he's a very bright guy and so then I respect his opinion a lot but when we were discussing it one of the things he said he's he's from the US but was like well what's it back by it's not backed by anything neither is the US dollar this was before the huge stimulus

package so it was more than a few weeks ago I guess and when when we discussed that I said you know you can't go into a bank and you know exchange your dollar is not backed by you know by gold and I know the gold standard arguments a whole other thing but it was just kind of counted to this point and he kind of

stopped and was like oh yeah and you know there was an element when we were then discussing it on a philosophical web saying why did people think that say the dollar for example anything else has value because we all agree it does and he was like yeah that's a fair point you know I would then argue that with

something like a Bitcoin you have you have the underlying value of the protocol and the technology behind it which is you know which is which is fascinating and so it's a different you're automatically in a kind of different ballpark of argument a lot more I'd say open to the idea but I think

people are often and I include myself in this that we're trained to think in certain ways and not to necessarily question it would you have to do because otherwise you'd never get through today you question everything yeah but at the same time if people then can raise certain issues like this to you it does

shift your viewpoints lightly and I think it makes you that a bit more open-minded and amenable to the idea that just because this is the way it's been done always doesn't mean it's necessarily the best way or the only option hmm it's interesting that he actually sort of questioned it himself though because I

don't find that generally with most people they will just keep banging their head against a brick wall and it's like it's either I'd say most people still think that money is backed by gold like an alarming proportion of people and like smart people as well that I've spoken to like yeah well it is backed by

gold and you're like mmm no it's not it hasn't been for many many years they're like yeah it is well that's why they keep in the vaults you're like well they don't so you just do some research you're wrong but a lot of them believe that and then even if they'll accept that they'll be like yeah well it's backed by the

government and that mean you know you can't have money without government and and they can't get past that it's like well we have done for thousands of years yeah just you know take take a bit of a bigger view of history stop looking in a little 50-60 year period and think that's all that humans have ever done

like take a bit of a take a step back but yeah it's a lovely feeling when you get people like that who do actually start questioning it and I'd be interested to know if he comes back to you with any more questions yeah he did with a few actually which was which was cool I don't think to be frank he'd be someone who

necessarily be a convert but I don't think he's the target audience in in a sense with the stage he's out in life he's not someone who's open to it but you know I think he's um he's someone who will be interested in a tech but may not be someone who's going to take a huge leap with it versus a you know a younger

person but the point you raise there is interesting actually it kind of raises a question in my head which would be interesting your thoughts on which is to do with Bitcoin as this hedge against fear in the sense of you know I do wonder as well whether a lot of people view it almost as it's a store of value

you know I know that's one argument of it but but what it is in that sense and is it is a hedge against current fear and that what you know you might be able to do is you know say you have a hundred thousand pounds in Bitcoin but if the dollar keeps printing the way it is and hyperinflation happens you're

protecting that value and arguably increasing it and then when you know either a new widely accepted world reserve currency comes into hand or a different changeful stop you're able to kind of dip in and out of the Bitcoin essentially which has increased your purchasing power against fiat so you

know not necessarily I think always a people taking a position that fiat will die and that it's never going to be used again which a lot of people kind of take it as but that equally it's a it's an it's a strong option to protect yourself against what we all know are the weaknesses of it whilst they'll allow

you to kind of operate in the world in that sense so it's it's it's like a you know a hedge slash an option which people don't necessarily realize it as I feel like yeah look at it for some people yeah I mean that's that's the whole hyper Bitcoinization argument and as much as I would love to see that I

don't see that anytime soon I just don't is is too much a leap for people it doesn't mean that Bitcoin doesn't have value and it it doesn't mean that we can't reach the targets that we talk about that most people would just think is absolutely stupid and crazy I genuinely believe that we will get some

sort of numbers that we're talking about but I don't think fiat money has to die but that to happen in fact I think that me Alex talking about this about a year and a half ago and we said ideally what happens is we continue as we are we have the crash we didn't know coronavirus was gonna be the sort of the pin that

pops the bubble but but we can we have a crash and then they just turn the printers on and we just inflate the money supply massively people start to lose trust in banks and governments even more than they already happen we were we were already at all time lows for trusting governments and banks anyway and

we said you know the perfect environment is that that happens and then we have sort of 10 years for the tech to catch up and for us to make sure we have privacy and all these sort of things and what we've wished for like if I couldn't have actually written a better script myself like if I'd have dreamt of like how

can I make Bitcoin go to the moon how can I make people want to use it how can I make the value go up and make it more useful I would just do exactly what every central bank around the world is doing and every politician is pushing for because they're just digging their own grave but it is not going to be

overnight you know it might be another 10 years or 20 years or 30 years or they are digging their own grave they've run out of options what we were discussing just before the court as well they were not always but you know successful revolutions or successful changes in perceptions widely held don't often

happen at the snap of a finger they are incremental sometimes through generations and and I think when you look at the profile of the people you'd say would be necessarily ideal to adopt Bitcoin then they're gonna be often younger and they're gonna be people that have grown up with the idea of

digital ownership being something that's more native to them and it's not such an alien idea and you know they're gonna be the people that adopt it on a mass scale so when you look at the I think we were discussing the kind of studies that have gone in I don't know the exact numbers to hand but when when they

asking younger people about what percentage of the portfolio or percentage of you would be interested in earning Bitcoin and the percentage numbers are huge you know they're up in the 60% or some form of currency versus older people it's a it's a completely different answer because I think it's a

completely different mindset and you know you might see those shifts coming through but to get those people to the point where they're the wealth transfer and those decisions are coming to them takes time like you say it takes years and years and years but it doesn't mean that things like this won't help to drive

adoption potentially you know I see you paid to shift on Twitter tweeting about oh you know why hasn't this just sent the price to the moon and again I kind of feel like it's deliberately misleading or is deliberately like a point of like well you don't expect that you know 10 million people

are just gonna pick up overnight and buy a bunch of Bitcoin or you involved in the sector it takes time to shift that but something like this might be part of the catalyst that you need to even get people thinking about it in a way that they haven't before because people you know will raise questions for a lot of

people they'll go well how come they can just print six trillion dollars yeah $100 not really by much for me I don't you know yeah it definitely does and also like the piece of shifts of this world who like I always used to say like oh we should just do them like you know we have like Bitcoin pizza day in all these

different days and the private key day where everyone takes that that you should be doing that anyway but anyway have all these different days I was like oh we should just have a mass everyone just unfollow and block Peter shift day but I've come round to it to have come because it's the only way that he can

stay relevant is just tweet about Bitcoin every day yeah the more I think about it the more I think well actually there's a lot of smart gold bugs and they are right like they were right that gold was better to store your value in than fear and they understood that and a lot of it's this technical barrier and the

more that he tweets about Bitcoin and the longer that he's wrong because he's been wrong consistently now for what eight years was since since it was 50 cents so he's consistently wrong every single day that he wakes up he's more wrong than he was the day before and the longer that goes on some of these

people who follow it must say hold on a minute this guy's just wrong and if I didn't if I'd have just for once not listened to him and actually done the opposite I'd be a multi-millionaire so those people I think over time will get converted and that's another thing all these it just takes time for people like

that to realize hold on maybe it isn't just stupid internet money and it isn't just a load of kids who think they're smart and they're actually idiots and maybe there is something to this and at the same time everyone whose value is being taken from them their government are doing things that they're not happy

with and then like we're saying YouTube is doing things they're not happy with myth the more people who are just gonna go why not why not have a money that isn't controlled by anybody why not on top of that I think with people people like him I mean there's a few points one which is the slightly half joking

cynical one which I'd say perhaps which is just maybe someone like him actually has a vested interest in Bitcoin and there's sometimes a you know you put deliberately provocative things out on Twitter because if you do you get a lot of bright replies and you know you see some of those replies and they're really

good rebuttals and they're really strong arguments counterpoints that you think okay that's great and you know the other point is I think any publicity in some sense is good publicity is the old saying but he is yeah thinking about it tweeting about it a lot to a big audience and exposing it and exactly one of the

way life came across Mark Eusko was was him and Peter tweeting back and forth I think from memory right and have that wrong but you know you then talk about a guy who gets it on the other end of the story but Mark who you know I get a really bright guy and Paul with and yeah I mean he's he's awesome and and he's really

bright and he's fun to speak to because he's he's the super open-minded guy who who has a huge wealth of experience which is fascinating and again is someone who's not afraid to put stuff out there be you know be right or wrong but get answers and frame things in a way that I think helps people with

adoption and helps people to be interested in the sector so I think there's a lot of benefits that can come out of something that people necessarily perceive as a as a con or someone who's against the sector when you actually reframe it in that sense exactly he's actually you know in a weird way as annoying and boring

as he is he is helpful in that way what he will be over time yeah there's a lot there's a lot of people like that yeah yeah definitely and I think and it's helpful to see equally I also think it's helpful to see reasons why people consistently argue against it so that you can either you know think okay one or

two of those arguments may have merit and I want to look into them or a lot of them don't and I think either way it can help you to understand the industry more as a whole and to and to kind of see okay right well it's strong in these areas and it's not another so it's their important conversations to have sometimes

people do just troll absolutely yeah interested but yeah you know I think we're all obviously interested in being censorship resistant and that's part of it isn't it's happened people with opposing opinions discuss things and seeing why they may or may not believe that yeah like you say is it is nice to

have people sort of challenge your arguments I guess it I think it comes to a time though like after a certain amount of time where you've heard every argument a hundred times and and you can break those arguments down and come up with ten reasons for each of them why it's wrong we we've heard them a hundred

times and other people have but that's kind of my point I've ever been phrased it well but is that new people coming to visit haven't and they think that's true they're interested in it whereas I think sometimes when you when you've been interested in involved in the sector for a while it's like you said

earlier about learning it's easier to forget where you come from over a year two years three years and something that was to you two years ago is new to someone else and so they're important conversations to to expose them to granted like you said can be really annoying and there's not how I would

necessarily like it but you can't stop at the say and I think if you can take some good from it that's a it's a lot better than most people can it's it's a necessary I mean from from your point of view are there any arguments where you know obviously you've been speaking to you into this stuff and it's you believe

it to be the future but are there any arguments that people have come up with you've spoken to people and you've gone yeah that's fair enough and that does concern me are there any that worry you not necessarily worry but when you talk about learning earlier still there's a few that that come to mind people have

raised about transactions per second obviously people discuss on scalability and then you see people working on solutions like lightning and equally there's there's arguments are seen back which is like well you're not necessarily trying to get it to replace you know a visa or someone like that it's

a different proposition so again I've seen counterpoints to that that made me think yeah that's very reasonable I have seen some interesting questions about like one of which was you know well mining become unprofitable if the price keeps going too high because you know then more people want to go and get

involved which then means more computing powers needed you know because the difficulty to solve the block increases which means more and more electricity is used and you know this kind of negative reinforcement cycle but it's not something I've I've really massively looked into yet but I'm mining death

spiral and all that stuff and yeah I kind of thought that's going to be something that's obviously been raised fairly quickly and equally yet that that you know power usage changes and computing options change and that there will be reason why for that so yeah I mean the only other one I mean just to

just to touch on that because that yeah because that is one that a lot of people will raise and it is something that I have looked into it really doesn't concern me that is what the difficulty adjustments therefore if we didn't have a difficulty adjustment built into protocol yes that would be a concern

but clearly Satoshi has thought deeply about the system that's why it works so well so so if you do have a case where miners are saying do you know what I'm running say an S9 an older bit of equipment and my power's a 7 cents a kilowatt or whatever it is this is now not profitable for me yes that mine

will switch off but what happens is you then have whatever it is 2020 blocks I think it is that they then the difficulty adjustment will kick in and they'll say okay well now it effectively becomes easier for miners to mine so the ones that have switched off firstly they're not on the network anymore and the

difficulty has dropped down so now the ones who have a cheaper kilowatt per hour or have better equipment they now become even more profitable than they were and then what happens is everyone else jumps back onto the network because of that oh it's profitable again and then it goes up so we have a very clear

trend of the hatra is is only really going in one direction and these things are becoming more and more efficient although we say an S9 an old bit of equipment it's certainly not going to be if I went and plugged one in at home here not profitable because I pay too much my electric it's not efficient

enough no way would I do it I'd be much better off just buying the Bitcoin but if you're a solar farm that has built far too many solar panels and you have excess or you know if whatever it is a wind farm or hydro or whatever then actually that energy is free and if it's in the middle of nowhere no one has a

use for it batteries are expensive so you can buy those s9s that are not actually useful for me anymore for basically nothing plug them in with free electric why wouldn't you do it so it's really not something that concerns me and I think it's a really good it's a really good fud point and and it's

something that people can throw out there it's one of you know there's sort of five or six main points on that that people bring up and and that's a good one because you have to understand a little bit more of the technical side but to me personally I doesn't concern me yeah that makes sense I told that it's

interesting to hear that because the the other one which doesn't concern me but I've been asked a few times is about transaction fees and and what's being done to combat expensive you know spiking transaction fees on the network and you know then you kind of come back and say what do they want to in the long run

because the principal it's going to be sustained by transaction fees and you know against then the you know it kind of is eliminated by the store value argument they are necessary going to be moving it all the time but and equally that there will be potentially you know layer two solutions or other creative

solutions coming up so yeah you know when I hear questions like that they don't really concern me either but I think that I think they're valid and people are well-founded to raise them to then examine it that's absolutely looking into it you say okay no like it's these are questions people have already thought

of and answered in a very logical way so yeah generally no I agree I think it's I think it's fascinating like that so it doesn't it nothing jumps out on me like there I mean if you then talk about other stuff I do it's interesting to see like you know like the DeFi movement you know do is largely on each and

people arguing you know about why why shouldn't it happen elsewhere and on BTC but it's interesting to kind of explore that you are you without like wishing to upset people too much I personally see all DeFi from my opinion and I could definitely be wrong as complete and utter bullshit yeah but I

know that there's a massive movement and I'm sure that there are gonna be some interesting things that are gonna be built I'm just yet to see them and I think that a concern for me is just I think it's mainly down to that I don't believe in it so if these things could be built on top of Bitcoin and I think

they can be I think there are some cool and interesting ideas out there I just I don't like something where I feel the foundations of a sand yeah there's definitely I think there's definitely gonna be something there but I just don't know whether we've seen it yeah Alex loves maker are there ones that you are

particularly interested in no I mean I I'm interested in the sector and I look at it and I think it's it's fascinating I mean makers obviously had a had a tough time but I think there's a lot of people in there with with great there's a lot of really great people who are very bright work yeah cool ideas and cool

solutions I think any one of them would be the first to say we're super super early in this we don't know what the I know there's never a final form but just for easy words yeah yeah gonna look like you know when things are kind of set down more and I think it's quite exciting to see this kind of explosion

of creativity yeah people aren't afraid to pursue all these different ideas try different things sometimes we run very fast with them and maybe maybe we should maybe we should it's different argument but I would say without standing on a sitting on the fence too much there I am I am very interested by it because I

think there are a lot of people who are a lot brighter than I am working on things and I never know what direction it's gonna end up in and so I like to see people willing to try new things be created get out there and and kind of see where it goes I think it's different you feel like maybe the as we know there

are people in the sector who have the wrong motivations and they don't necessarily really care about the projects that they're compiling they're they're using it kind of for their own personal gain but I think there are a lot of people who have really good intentions and it's it's encouraging to me to see them just

just explore all these new ideas that just weren't even on the table you know five seven years ago and where that may take us I don't know so that's where I kind of rest on now I'm quite supportive of the of the exploration phase but equally yeah things you've done that are gonna support Bitcoin I'm

all for it because I think it's it's an incredibly strong value proposition and it's interesting it'd be great just to have more more positive press around it as well you know it would just add another feather to the cap of the BTC network so but I you know I do view it as it it's not always a zero-sum game and

you know there can be positive that will come out of one side that will benefit the BTC network as well so I'm actually with yeah I'm actually with you there like as much as I slay other projects and I think that the majority of them are either complete enough to scams just literally there to confuse

people and take their money so that they can get the BTC I all they're misguided I do think that it's good because like you said that the more crazy ideas and the more things that are developed and the more things that people are doing the more likelihood is that we're gonna develop

something else that's amazing and useful and it and it might be that a million of them absolute garbage but the next one that comes out is actually really really useful so I think it's just it's really important part of it and I definitely don't have any issue with people trying these things I think

is brilliant I think where I have an issue is where they they almost give a bad name in some ways to Bitcoin because if someone's come in and they bought some shitty scam coin that's that's promising the world and they've gone straight in and they bought that and some people you know they shut their

life savings into these things because the marketing is so good you know the product is shit but the marketing is amazing so if part of their life savings in they've lost it now that person's never gonna go near Bitcoin they are gonna tell their friends about it and they're gonna say crypto and then their

friends will then say oh that's Bitcoin and it creates this confusion which gives it a bad name unnecessarily but also the positive side of it is there's so many projects and so much bullshit going on that it almost provides cover for Bitcoin because the regulators are happy to do so much to deal with all

these nightmare scam coins that it gives us more time and there's so much confusion that just no one knows what's going on yeah I know I think that's a really fair point and it's frustrating because you have bad actors and people acting in bad faith and it you know defeats part of the kind of underlying

movement of what people are why people are interested in the sector or why a lot of us are and I don't have a good answer for us manage that and I find that it's frustrating because I see you know it's it's frustrating it equally when people then point to me and say well look at all the scams that go on

there or you know it's some of it's used for you know buying a legal goods online or data that I never really understand that argument because I said well it's a stupid idea yeah yeah it's I mean I think you can't you can't really touch a power note in the UK can you without having some trace of a drug let alone

actually being used to purchase one yeah exactly you know there's and you know con men and scammers have been around since history you know well and recorded history so it's one of those frustrating things that I don't have a good answer for and I wish I did but I just try and I see people doing things

that I think are really positive in the sector where they're trying to bring attention to scams and scam coins and shit you know they're not afraid to call them out yeah I've seen different people doing a lot of that and I know that there's um I've not done a huge amount of research into that there's a

on yavin coin intelligence you know they're very heavy on on the calling people out scamming which I think it does a huge amount to protect people it's a difficult position for anyone like to be in on both sides of the coin but it when you're trying to make the sector and more more appealing to people you do

need to try and push against these bad actors and it's cool to see people who have a lot of knowledge actually rallying against that and because it's functions it strengthens everyone then which I think it's it is I think it will there's no way to regulate this stuff it's going to continue it's going to

burn some people but that's kind of it's kind of natural selection if you're gonna go and if you're gonna go and throw your life savings into XRP or one of these things and you don't really understand what you're buying well you know maybe you should have done some more research maybe there are good things

that are going to come out of some of these projects I'm kind of I'm yet to really see what I like the idea of things like dying and that kind of stuff I do like the idea of having a stable coil a lot of people are really against stable coins and they'll say oh well what's the point you've got Bitcoin that's the most

stable coin and yes I agree but it's it's not useful for everyone you know there are certain people who just want to hold a dollar because they want something that's stable right now they're not really looking at as an investment or they want to take loans out and all this kind of stuff and it's

all interesting stuff and I'm sure it will really amazing stuff will happen and if we took the view of like oh well nothing nothing useful nothing interesting is going to come 11 years ago well then we would have dismissed Bitcoin as well yeah and you look at you know Bitcoin is the culmination of a

large number of different people researching over a large period of years so it didn't happen overnight it did in a sense it was released but it was the culmination of a lot of bright people creating different solutions or you know to to problem so you know I think that's something that that people

can remember as well which is important and then and then I look at some of the cool ideas that are coming out the back of it and I know we were discussing before like with your art you know I see people doing these these nifties and you know digital artists are doing things that can kind of promote

ownership in a different way than has ever been experienced before and I you know I enjoy art myself and I collect a bit but I find that a really interesting argument again just from a creative perspective of just trying things out that are that are new and unusual you can accept payment for your

art in crypto and then you look at I said I'm a type one diabetic so on the medical side of things I think it'd be quite interesting to see some of the supply chain solutions being worked on just even from a proven inside of you because I do see things in in countries around the world where fake insulin is

put around as an example and you know that that kills people so it's I'm not saying it's necessarily the best solution or the only one but I think they're they're interesting and cool ideas that people are exploring that are helpful and you don't know what the final inspiration may be but to see

people kind of opening their mind and looking at trying to solve problems in a new and novel way can generally I'd say only be a good thing if it's if it's done in the right in the right sense yeah it's like any it's like any business really the more businesses that do something the more likely that

something good is gonna come out of it and with most businesses most businesses fail and it's the same with these ideas most of them will fail but part of this movement is free and open innovation you know without regulation and without all that which I'm all for I'm fully behind that so I'd be a hypocrite if I

said oh well don't you know ban them or you know regulate them so they can't do it I'm completely I'd say let anyone do whatever they want and if someone's stupid enough to buy some bullshit let them get burned but have enough people who understand this stuff to speak out and warn people and that's all you can

do you can only you can only warn people and you know can you only try and sort of show help them as much as you can which is why it's such a shame like we are saying these videos and things going down and one thing which which we almost started we almost went down that sort of rabbit hole but a decentralized

if it can be done a decentralized YouTube or Twitter I always almost think like if you owned your own character basically you are you you have your own username no one can then shut you down you know you put out your content and you say what you want to say and you interact with people and you could maybe

go across platforms if we can nail that somehow that is just gonna be amazing because that's the dream you know that's the dream of what Facebook should have been and what YouTube should have been and what Twitter should be and it's just that we have these middlemen sat in the middle leaching all the money applying

regulations and it's sort of saying oh we're doing it to protect people but it's bullshit they're not they're doing it to protect their own pockets and that's the trading thing there that you hit on I think is a lot of the time and maybe slightly less on the libertarian scale than other people but I think that you

know a lot of these regulations in under the guise of protection and they're not and that you know is incredibly frustrating because it's you know it's we're being treated like the fools you don't really see what's going on and that that kills me I don't have a straightforward good answer just for the

straight no regulation side of things because equally I do see a lot of things out there that concern me and I don't think it's a straightforward answer but then you know that's part of the interesting and good thing in the space is I then you know through through Bitcoin and through the podcast I came

across like the Stefan Levere one yeah he's awesome yeah and you know I I hadn't really ever heard of Austrian economics before and I looked into that and I don't necessarily agree with everything but again I'd like to hear different viewpoints because I think it helps you to understand the world and people in a

different way and then equally off the back of that he came to London a while ago and they did a meetup and I went along and it was brilliant it was really interesting and really educational oh you went to that one did you go to the bit there was meetup afterwards no I couldn't hardly so were you there I was

I was actually sat next to Stefan and it was a met it was such a good meetup I mean yeah 99.9% of it went over my head because that was a room full I mean I go to the other bit there's meetups and there's normally like four or five people you know this one there must have been a hundred and it was just the

smartest people I've ever heard speak ever all in one room and yeah most of it went over my head but it was amazing yeah it's really and you know he was brilliant and took time to answer questions and interact and I mean we met up really relaxed and fun very London that I know but yeah that's the

interesting part of it as well as being able to speak to people and they'll have ideas and viewpoints that I would say oh wow I've not thought of it from that angle before and maybe I'm like 90% of it and I don't agree with 80 or maybe I'll be with 80 we're not this 20 but equally being those two things that

you wouldn't be otherwise and it helps you I think to form different views of things and to create different solutions which then kind of circles back to you know what what people are doing in the industry and why it's so interesting to have such a diverse amount of views and perspectives because it's gonna help

people to create things and solutions that they never would before you know you'd kind of avoid the group thing problem by having that and having these different perspectives put forward absolutely no I completely agree with you and we don't all have to agree it's nice it would be boring if everyone agreed

all the time and thought the same way it's it would be very very dull there are some big characters in this industry and people aren't really afraid to speak out which is nice but equally people are very open to help each other and yeah like you were saying I'd set out my node a few weeks ago BTC sessions really

really helpful Matt Odell be helpful loads of other people jumped in my direct messages and been helping with all sorts of things not just oh I'll just write one little sentence or like send a link and I'll read this really helpful step by step come back if you have any questions you know ask me anything you

need and I've not experienced that in a in another sector people yeah you you you can get your head bit enough and people are really passionate and people have very very strong views but at the end of the day they're really helpful like they'll stand there ground and speak their mind but they're never

unnecessarily nasty and they're always really helpful which is it's just so nice to see yeah I completely agree it's you know people are passionate about the sector and they want to help and it's it's cool to get that assistance you know even small things like another example and when when the crisis kicking

off just in the general community I saw to use him again but Rick Rick burn put up a tweet you know I feel really having to shut down at the moment and let people go and if you are you know basically contact me and we'll speak about it because I've been through a similar thing or the same thing and you

know I'm I think I've quite a few people took him up on that and what I could see and I just saw I was like that's really cool and you know to offer that to offer your time to offer your advice to people in that moment and to even think to do that just gesture so you know it does help with that kind of community feel

people care about people how have you found like I said to you before we jumped on I know that you and Alex have got something going on in the background and we won't get too much into it on this episode I'd really like to get you both back on to talk about because he was reluctant as well on the last one so I

want to get you both together but how has it been setting up because you're now working in the industry have you found a similar sort of thing of people being helpful to people being good or if you had some problems no I think like most people have been been really helpful it's kind of either the helpful they don't

respond which is quite a nice you know and it's like you say I won't really get into it now but we basically maybe just give us a teaser kind of placing people in the industry and trying to support the growth in the best way we can because like you said earlier I think there's a lot of really bright

people in the space working on solutions and they're a lot smarter than me so I'm not gonna create another company that doesn't need to be made with all due respect you guys have got and we can help in a different way and yeah you know equally it's it's it's been tough because we were kind of just getting started right

before the global pandemic struck and it's changed the playing field and the operating field for a lot of people and being a you know we are a startup not necessarily in your traditional sense that most people think of but we're a startup in you know a very a very difficult time to operate a business so

you know I think it's tricky that but it's early days oh excuse me sorry Matt yeah no problem it's my other line and yeah you know it's been it's been tricky because it's we set up at the start of a global pandemic in essence so but the people a lot of the people we've spoken to in a lot of the

conversations we've had have been just brilliant you know people are really interesting and interested and I think most of the conversations that we've had have just been kind of similar to this where you're just talking about the industry as a whole to people because that's the way I think most of us are

in it you know we'll have this real shared interest and you each trying to find your you know your own space in the in the world and you just want to kind of show that whereas yeah then you say the the other side of the coin with people that are kind of very self-interested and just looking out myself

I think usually those people most of them get seen through pretty quick so yeah it's certainly been interesting I think you know what we can do for now is kind of hunkered down whether the storm and help out where we can but it's interesting time so I definitely would love to come back on with Alex in a lot

of fun so yeah we would do we'd do a talk about really big deep into what you guys are doing because you know I'm sure there there'd be some listeners who I think once you understand this stuff and you really get wrapped up in it you basically get to a point where you're like okay what can I do how can I do

something in this industry because I'm obsessed with it and I'm sure that there'll be people listening who you know maybe some of them already are working in the sector or maybe some of them are looking to be placed when you do come back maybe come back with some roles of people that you're looking for

and you know that'd be amazing if I could get one of my listeners to find their perfect job through you guys that'd be amazing and it's all about building that network and then getting people into the roles they want to want to work in yeah absolutely I would love to excellent all right well listen we've

been we've been blabbing for a couple of hours now or mainly me but I actually I have a crying I have a crying puppy downstairs but before we jump off the call I just wanted to always ask this question just because it's something that fascinates me do you have any sort of thoughts around who you think Satoshi

might be or do you have any sort of weird conspiracy theory or do you just completely just don't care no I I have thought about it a bit I think it's really interesting part of me thinks it's it's like a consortium okay and that that you know that kind of pseudonym is maybe some sort of nod we don't get or

we do get but to to a group of people that have made it possible and I wouldn't even know where to start I've seen so many legitimate guesses thrown around and there's so many amazing people that kind of contributed to getting it in its final form that I just I wouldn't really know I don't have a strong guess up

part of me like I say kind of just thinks it might be you know a few people involved which is maybe one of the reasons why it's so hard to pin down to just one person and yeah I mean I don't I wouldn't say I don't care I would love to know I think it would be fascinating but it's quite nice in a way that mystery

because it doesn't spoil your enjoyment of the product it protects the system really but just like you know I have a similar view and it doesn't matter but it's just like because we spent so much time on this stuff I'd love to like even if I just knew myself and like I could never tell anyone else and or if I tried

to tell someone else I'd instantly die I just I'd love to know because it's just whoever's done it and and I think you know thinking it's a group of people is very reasonable thought because it's just it links so many different disciplines together that to think if it is one person just I just can't even

imagine how bright that one person is but even if it even if it's a group of a hundred people I can't imagine how bright they are it would be lovely to know even if you only knew and you couldn't tell anyone the poor bloke that they that they plastered across the news and I know

definitely not definitely not yeah I that would be the ultimate twist to be like some yeah yeah absolutely all right well any anything else you want to touch on before we jump off the call or any sort of there's always more stuff I think maybe maybe I say I'm for the next call is that but sure I mean otherwise I keep

you on it for another hour but happily happily go all day but yeah I try and I try and keep them under a couple of hours and yeah let me say it would definitely get you on again I've really enjoyed chatting with you so yeah we have to we have to do a little meetup in London or something do a little Bitcoin

and stake meetup and or something like that yeah you just mentioned two of my favorite things so that's not a hard sell all right perfect well just tell everyone just tell everyone again where they can get in contact with you so if anyone wants to get in touch yeah so best place is probably Twitter like which

is blockchain underscore rec and that's our easy the last bit and I mean our website is www dot blockchain recruit dot careers and but I say they're the two best and you know there's a contact form on there but equally you can just DM me and and we can chat always okay perfect all right well yeah listen thanks

again for coming on I really really enjoyed it I look forward to getting you both on on the next one and I'm sure we'll speak over the next couple of days anyway when you're setting up you know all that sort of stuff yeah it's all ordered so thanks for the help and yeah no worries I really enjoyed it so all

right excellent all right well we'll speak again soon cheers