EP28 Bitcoin podcast with Danny Brewster.

Welcome back to the bit by bit podcast today. I have Danny Brewster. We're going to talk some Bitcoin. Could you introduce yourself, Danny? Hi, I'm Danny Brewster. I'm a Bitcoiner. How's that?

That's very good. Do I need to show the company? And let's do a bit of shilling as well. So, fastbickcoins.com. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about what you're doing at the moment and what's it all about? Okay. We're just trying to provide a simple way for people to access Bitcoin

and that is Bitcoin only. So, please don't ever ask us to add any shitcoins. I can swear on this podcast, right? You can swear away. Yes. Cool. I've got a party mail. That'll be too. So, yeah. So, we have just relaunched. Unfortunately, we have to adhere to all of the laws and this

fifth-money laundering directive and the FATF stuff. So, customers have to register and verify these days. But what we're trying to do is make that process as smooth and as simple as possible and then just basically enable users to be able to access our services online via bank transfer

or they can use our retail network. We've got our own independent network with our own hardware, deployed in physical locations around the UK, in Canada, Estonia. We've got locations in Latvia.

We've got a Bitcoin meet-up place in Berlin as well now that's online and we're just about to start rolling out across Australia as well. And we're just looking to expand that network to provide access points for users to be able to just buy Bitcoin. We've got dollar cost averaging now.

We've also just introduced another type of order, which basically takes, say, 100-pound order, splits it up over a 24-hour period and every 10 minutes just stack sets, every 10 minutes, so it just literally is like dollar cost averaging on steroids, basically, or on speed,

over a 24-hour period. So, you just average the price out. And for me, I've never heard that done before. That's really interesting. Yeah, we was also the first lightning, cash to lightning exchange in the world. So, we do like to remain at the forefront, but as a company

and personally, I've been wheeled out on all of the podcasts this week following our relaunch because we have a publicist and marketing guy. So, people will probably be bored of hearing my voice over the next few weeks as this lockdown comes to an end and the podcasts get listened to.

So, these features, we are just trying to get them out there, get people using them, hopefully set some standards and best practices for users like we don't ever hold clients' Bitcoins or users' Bitcoins ever. We deliver them as soon as they've been bought. We can deliver them on

the lightning network, we're adding liquid. We deliver them on chain as well. So, yeah, we're just pushing forward and trying to just do it. So, we get shit done before we start talking about it.

That's cool. And so, you were talking about having it in kiosks. That sounds pretty interesting to me. What does that look like? What's the experience for someone who's coming into one of these stores?

Literally, we have posters and stickers around these stores that basically makes it clear that it's one of our partner locations. You can see that on our map on the website, if you've got a location near you, we are growing. We want to get to a point where people can just

assume there's a location near them. So, basically, what they do is just walk in and say, can I buy a 20-pound or a 10-pound, 50-pound, 100-pound fast Bitcoins voucher or to whatever amount they want, 35-pound, 33 if they wish. The teller would enter that into their POS device that we've provided

them with. It would generate the voucher. That's point of sale, not proof of stake, I assume. Oh, yeah. Our POS actually works. And we can prove that it works. So, yeah, so, point of sale device would print out the voucher. The exchange doesn't actually happen there in

store. So, the merchant doesn't have to know anything about Bitcoin. All they're doing is collecting a little bit of commission for the transaction that they've facilitated. And we build them for it, and they pay us, the user doesn't have to worry about any of that.

They then take the voucher if they've got a wallet that we're already partnered with, they can scan the QR code and redeem it straight into their wallet, or they can just go to the fastbitcoins.com website and redeem that voucher and receive the Bitcoins on chain, on lightning, or via liquid once we've enabled liquid deliveries.

And in terms of the payments, when people are buying these things, is there a cash, is it available for cash, or does it have to be done with debit card? It's cash. The original idea was the Bitcoin ATM business model for me was extremely inefficient.

You've got these huge machines that cost thousands of pounds. They are forever breaking down. They require cash servicing. And there's a reason why you pay sometimes upwards of 16 to 20% to use Bitcoin ATM. And sure, some of them previously would have enabled you to buy without completing

KYC, which we also enabled at that point in time, because it's legal for us to do so, up to certain thresholds. But now even Bitcoin ATM businesses are going to have to enforce KYC to be able to comply with the legislation and stuff. Otherwise, the owners and operators are just risking being

locked up or penalized for that. If anybody wants to take that risk, that's on them. I personally can't. I've got a family. I've got children. Nobody's going to feed them if they lock me up for sticking to my films about KYC and stuff. But what we do do as a business is try and educate

users and give users the ability to then go on and do coin joins after to achieve financial privacy before they deposit it to their hardware wallet and things like that. That's what we can facilitate, or what we not necessarily facilitate, but guide people towards just these best practices

for Bitcoiners. And what people, there's a couple of problems with like the whole KYC thing. There's one people think, I've bought bitcoins from a KYC exchange where I've had to give up my details of information. That exchange will only hand those details over about you specifically

if requested for them specifically about you. So like to tax authorities and stuff. And there's plenty of precedent where wide ranging requests for the details of every single user can be declined by the yeah. And the other big problem is if these platforms get hacked and the data

and all of your passports and personal information gets leaked which is down to the platform operators to ensure that they're storing any information in a secure manner that any third parties that they're using have been audited to ensure that they are storing that data in a manner that even

if it does get leaked it's encrypted so the keys to it aren't available so the information is just randomized strings essentially. And then people I think mistakenly sometimes promote the idea of like these decentralized exchanges and things. But what you're going to find is if you're using

like a bank transfer on the best network or even local bitcoins the person that you're doing the trade with is going to want a copy of some KYC documentation to prove that you've got the right to be sending them money from that bank account. Because the ones that don't burn through their

bank accounts because of fraud will extremely quickly. So you either send it to a business that's going to look after your data or you send it to some random stranger that's on a peer-to-peer platform or on a middleman website like local bitcoins that makes the introduction between

individuals. So yeah it's all trade-off so I guess at the end of the day when it comes to KYC. That's the sort of thing with everything within this industry everything's a trade-off and I mean from my position I don't run an exchange or have to comply with any rules so I can say I think KYC

is absolutely fucking stupid. I think that the idea of it is discussing and it does much more harm than good and I wish there was none of it but I understand that if you're running a business you have to comply with these rules or you risk serious problems so it's a case of you know I like that

you said after the fact you know you can try and explain to people the best practice of how and how to keep some level of privacy and it looks like maybe that's going to be the way that people are going to have to do things unless they are doing cash transactions or they are mining

and other than that we kind of have to accept that someone's going to have your details but I don't like it I don't like the idea of it and I think that you know especially if someone's buying a large amount and their details are held within exchange and we've just seen like ledger

had a leak recently you know these sort of things happen and then it gets sold on the dark and what if someone comes and knocks on your door and you've got a family yeah absolutely the thing for me is I struggle to see like the person like the guy or the woman that's buying 100 pounds worth of

Bitcoin a month what crime exactly is being stopped by the the KYC and everything other than some Orwellian level data collection fully on board with the idea now the person moving 10 15 20 million yeah there's different care look at this it's absolutely talking cheese yeah so I'm absolutely

with you on that but like I say as a business owner and operator for me if bitcoin is going to fill anywhere near its potential not everybody is the same or do you know what what I've noticed the vast majority of our users couldn't care less about having to complete KYC and the implications

of that and like the amount of people it's like you say to them I can remember when the experiment experiment the Experian leak happened and everything and the the vast majority of people yeah oh well it is what it is yeah well they're on Facebook they're on Facebook sharing what they had for

lunch so you know yeah the idea of processes and a lot of the like the people on Twitter and stuff like that exist in like this confirmation bias sphere of an echo chamber it's ultimately like I say I'd rather push for best practices and if for me the only way we're really gonna exact any real

changes when it comes to like legislation and stuff like that is by making or getting to a point where the lawmakers are Bitcoiners he with all the gold makes the rules yeah there's a reason how why Donald Trump could become the president of the United States and that's because he had

the capital and the means to to do it and whether you like him or hate him the smarts to be able to win that race to become president so fair play to him and for me literally the I wasn't a recording with Daniel Prince and one of his questions was who would you it is last question on all

of them it's like if you could impart the message to be able to spread it to anybody for me it's just like a world leader somebody that's in that position to have that kind of top-down influence to basically turn a government or a leadership structure to basically turn around to be able to say to the

central bank as they roll when I'm stacking sat as a national investment whilst we can yeah I mean they will get there like there's there's a generation now coming up that have never existed in a world without Bitcoin but it's it's going to take decades yeah and people need to realize yeah I think so

and like you said about the echo chamber is very easy to you know I spend a lot of my time on Twitter and and I agree with everything that is said well most things that are said and you know we have a similar idea around things but there's an ideal and then there's the reality of the world

and we are in that kind of pretty much Orwellian 1984 sort of world at the moment and it doesn't just happen like that that you change things you know these things do take time what I'm sort of hoping for personally is that we have some ability to do things after the fact that we get good enough

that it's so hard to track that they just give up yeah do you think that's possible previously on the base chain is probably going to be the next scaling debate you're going to have the people that are close to the regulators you know the suits that that want to push more regulation to basically

create their mo around their businesses and stuff sorry my message just texting me I just sent her a message saying get the dog in so she's barking next door seems to be having some kind of like party and she's like no I'm an asda so yeah so it's all right mine will probably start soon

yeah hopefully she'll calm down my next door is having a party she's extremely guarding and she's quite old what dog you got I've got I've got two I've got an older dog which is a ball master of cross presser canario she's also presser canario think Staffordshire ball terrier on stilts and steroids

they're in italian oh like an italian massive yeah yeah yeah and then I've got a kenkorso cross presser canario and the kenkorso is an italian war dog they are right massive she's only one years old but she's like 55 kilo she's quite a unit and she doesn't realize those eyes

yeah and she chases around little jack russels and stuff around the park she's such a big playful dog she bounces across across the park everybody locally knows her yeah and she's out in the field she walked brilliantly off a lead and stuff so it's normally the big dogs

normally the big dogs are the friendliest we've got a couple of rich backs and they're so friendly but but people are scared of them because they're just the sheer size of them but they are lovely my daughter's grandmother had a ridge back when my daughter was born she used to lay at the bottom

of the moses basket nobody other than me and my missus and her grandmother could get anywhere near when she was in that basket but have you ever seen completely off topic now on to dogs I love my dogs yeah me too the Ricky Gervais bit on roadies and ridge backs yeah yeah yeah yeah that's a class

yeah who got to tell the roadies and ridge back that they they've got to fight lines yeah absolutely beautiful beautiful dogs you were talking about the once bitten podcast that you went on and that last question of who would you speak to weirdly Ricky's phrase was mine

when I spoke to him really I've nice I listened to a few I have so many podcast I try we're about to embark on a raise so I'm trying to like cram as much information about that whole environment and VCs and all of that into my brain so I like listening to podcasts and stuff like that reading

and and everything but I've obviously got friends with Peter about my comment yeah all of like the Stephan Lavera and people like that they're all friends or I consider them friends yeah associates and stuff so I literally have podcasts on all of the time and I've subscribed to yours as well

excellent actually I couldn't I don't think I could find you on Spotify oh really should be on there it's I'll have to look harder but I found it through your website as soon as I got told this has been bought straight yeah listen to a few of those so yeah enjoyed it and the

but if I can find it on Spotify I'll soon subscribe so I'll send you a link so you can be my my second listener oh really I don't know I don't know I don't know but everybody got to start somewhere I remember when Peter my comment literally started and he had like I found I discovered it

and he had like the Roger interview interview Craig Wright where he got over in person so this was like around all the like the scaling debate and stuff and then he saw sense and became Bitcoin only and yeah just watching his progression I know he robs people the wrong way and stuff

on Twitter but I love to see it it's his way you can literally he's a genius everything to plan that and what have you yeah he's a genius in his own right I thought the fortune the fortune has been able to go to the football with him I should say unfortunate because it was Liverpool

Man City away that we got tickets for and we lost that game it was like last season when we missed out on the lead title by the 11 millimeters the ball didn't cross the line and that was like literally on their own noses when that didn't cross the line but just watching that progression

and how we succeeded in with his podcast and everything and I don't feel that like the media and the podcast space now is nobody can deny it especially when you see what's happening with like Joe Rogan and stuff is now a critical part of the media because it's how people are beginning

to get informed and stuff well it's deep it's the way I look at it is like in the same way Bitcoin is decentralized banking it's kind of the same with information and if you just have one new source and they're told what to say you got the BBC it's all what to say and they're influenced by people

with money and you know I know they're not supposed to be but when you have enough people all doing their own podcast all having their different ideas you you sort of naturally end up finding where the good information is and it took me like a couple of years to find some good podcasts and

find some good writing and find some good people to follow on Twitter where you finally get the good information it takes time but you've also got to be extremely aware of seeking out your own confirmation bias yes I've probably fallen into that trap before and this is why I used to love

Bitcoin Uncensored so much when it was Krista Rose and Johnson together I don't know if you're familiar with them it was before my time but I know I know of them yeah when they when they did their show together they basically they was like the original Bitcoin Maximus yeah in a time when

it was like blockchain the world and they were the ones pushing back against that narrative and playing the contrarian and stuff and you know it was such a and even now like Joseph for me if people don't follow Joseph or listen to his podcast of Joseph world show me and him did like a 10 hour

marathon recording in a hotel in London one time just randomly I got a message from him saying I'm in London so I literally traveled down to London on the train and we had a laugh and recorded for like 10 hours just in his hotel room he was here for his normal job and it was just insane it was

so funny but he's a contrarian thinker and like the the FT like the Financial Times Alphaville brought him over to to speak at one of their events and he was on stage with that Francis Coppola who I cannot stand and all of these like naysayers against Bitcoin like Noriel was there oh yeah people like

that and he went and got on that stage and you know what he speaks so much truth but people don't like uncomfortable truths especially if it goes against their confirmation bias and for me there's so many hype men in Bitcoin it's like come on it's actually I have a level-headed discussion and

if you actually speak to like a lot of the core developers or anybody developing anything around Bitcoin or lightning they're the most level-headed people in the space and then you've got like personalities that I just like pump pump pump yeah well it gets follows it gets engagement

exactly you know it's a tactic you can take yeah but but I think and I think that's probably why a lot of people do have a problem with Peter McCormack and that you know the way that he goes about things because he likes to get a conversation going around around ideas that people don't really want to

necessarily tackle head on and he does it in a way that's going to antagonize a few people because it gets the conversation going and it doesn't it doesn't need all to be hashed out it's all well and good saying moon moon moon moon but at the end of the day you have

to continue to push this thing forward and you know like we're saying with KYC being something that gets in the way of having true peer-to-peer digital cash and all everything being traceable well it's got to be worked on you can't just say oh well it'll be sorted later and I think that you

say that's why these developers are more level-headed and they are probably they're more bearish on everything because they're actually the ones building it yeah which I think is good I'm very excited about what's possible but I do also see that we are up against some very powerful people

with a lot of money in a lot of sway who are going to do everything they can to stop this and I think it's just maybe it hasn't really caught their attention fully or they underestimate it but they will come they will come at us um I these people with all of this capital they're not done

people but ultimately bitcoins what what's the market cap of if it's a bad it's a bad country there's probably been I probably couldn't count the amount of deals that have been done or transactions that have been done today alone that are worth more than the entire market cap

of Bitcoin between businesses or funds and and stuff they're a hundred hundred and sixty billion it's a lot of money don't get me wrong but on the ground global economic scale it's still a drop in the ocean nothing and so we're still a whale off and these people know that they won't be able to

essentially stop Bitcoin because for me as long as another block is created Bitcoin is still alive regardless of the price and the difficulty or anything as long as that block keeps being churned out or the new blocks keep being churned out Bitcoin is alive and kicking and well and they know they

can't ban it they've seen these people have seen like the advent of file sharing and how it went from being like centralized websites to Napster all the way through to to BitTorrent and then the evolution of the market with iTunes and and now street or other streaming services and stuff

so these people aren't stumped to but they've put themselves the vast majority of them have put themselves into this position and if they've not squandered that wealth because they inherited it they're not done people so they'll be well aware of everything and like that with Goldman Sachs

we don't need these people to give Bitcoin the green light and approval because Bitcoin doesn't give a foot at all what anybody thinks and it's it's not for me as a person or anybody else to say what Bitcoin is how it can be used or how it should be used and who it should be used by as

soon as anybody feels or thinks that they've got that authority if somebody wants to buy a coffee with Bitcoin and pay however many saps for the transaction fee is required to buy that coffee maybe extremely inefficient but that is their choice it's not for me to say that no they shouldn't do

that or yes you should do that i can say it doesn't make a lot of sense just like i would say it doesn't make a lot of sense to commit crimes and perform transactions using Bitcoin with the proceeds of those crimes you've got a permanent record of that transaction yeah cash is very good for that

yeah exactly but not if you asked that munching guy apparently the US dollar has never been used for for crime of course not of course not so yeah that what i said about intelligent people is probably wrong well some some yeah that or just completely disingenuous yeah that's probably more

likely yeah so yeah if Bitcoin should run towards its problems and vulnerabilities and stuff like that because the only way that we come through the other side is by attacking them and running at them and everything so yeah and so you were saying you know there's no way of pinning down

Bitcoin or saying what you what you think it is or what it's going to be because it's something different to everyone and we all have a different view what is it to you obviously this isn't the easiest industry i listened to your episode with Charlie Shrimman it sounds like you've had a hard

run of it first time round we maybe get a little bit more into that later but clearly you've gone through a lot of shit it's not the easiest industry you're starting another project what is it that it means to you why are you doing it why do you why is it the why is it you care about Bitcoin

Bitcoin is our only chance of pushing back against constant creep of the powers that be in control it for me is our greatest opportunity of pushing back against that for better or for worse i haven't had an easy run of it but 100% down to the decisions that i've taken in the past and

the choices that i've made sure i've dealt with some absolute nobets but it was me that chose to do business with them and stuff like that so there is i've been told to like try and stay away from this story now it's been talked about so much and whatever but i always feel that there's

so many lessons that can be learned from it and stuff and i wish people would look at it and learn from the mistakes that i made and and stuff like that even if they take like one thing from it and it helps them overcome something or what or basically not make the same mistake or think that

they know it all because for me Bitcoin is so humbling like most out of it actually anything Bitcoin will humble you i 100 probably thought i knew everything when i was younger i know for well at 15 years old i thought i knew everything and at 25 i thought yeah i've probably grasped it

now and then at 30 i realized that 25 i didn't have a fucking clue and now at 34 i'm just so cautious about what i do and just acknowledging that i don't know everything and have all of the answers and i could very easily make mistakes but i also know that if i make a mistake i can learn from it

and as long as it's not catastrophic and how we we respond to those lessons and things like that it's not like i'm just embarking on something new i literally built fast bitcoins whilst on electronic tag on bail fighting extradition whilst i had 34 years in prison hanging over me in accusations

knowing 100 percent of those accusations were false as well but also having this understanding that the system that you're fighting against is partially corrupted it was an uphill battle but like i say it's how you react to those situations that you find yourself in and it's i've said it

many times i could have let that destroy me or i use that time to re-teach myself how to write code to iterate through and tinker and play and then finally get to a position where i could execute and build fast bitcoins what people probably don't understand is all of the mechanics that

go in behind running the business and stuff like that it's not just a simple wordpress website that operates essentially an OTC desk for people to be able to buy bitcoin from several different countries around the world there's a lot more to it than that but if i can build that

anybody can so even if that's just a lesson if this dummy that made all of these mistakes in 2012 2013 2014 even maybe 2015 when i was having to deal with it all i made mistakes then too if this idiot can build something that goes on to be a success and we are seeing a success with

fast bitcoins over the last year and a half since we've launched then absolutely anybody can go and do that well like you said first of all if you never make any mistakes you're not working hard enough and you're not pushing you're not pushing boundaries and if you can't accept that you've

made mistakes you're never going to move forward so it's one of those things that like you said you can either destroy you or it can make you a stronger person yeah most people that i've met who are in bitcoin are certainly me i've made so many fucking stupid mistakes in my life

i've done so many dumb things and i still do dumb things it's probably dumb me talking about some of the stuff that i do on this podcast because it's not it's not necessarily politically correct or accepted by most people but you have to do what you feel is right in life otherwise you can't

be happy and i think what i was really trying to get at is the fact that you are moving forward with this new business and you are still within bitcoin even though you've had a hard time of it means that this is suddenly very special to you and that that's what's so nice having these

interviews and speaking to people because it's special to me too and i think you're right it is our last chance it's not a chance i think it's our last chance and we might we have to fight for that yeah i without getting too echoy and mirroring it back to you again but but yeah it is a it's the

chance to to push back and i don't know if you ever watched the four horseman documentary it's like didn't that shoot it's it basically goes through and a lot of it makes sense like towards the end of empires and stuff and like how there's a disparity between the rich and the poor

and how that grows and how like but towards the end of the Roman Empire and most empires like who they made celebrities out of like the chefs and stuff like that it mirrors like what's happening in the world today so much and it's uh if if we can come through the end of the current like

modern monetary theory influenced Keynesian influenced type of environment like this rampant consumerism without sounding too much like a tree hugger and stuff but for me i'd like to live on this on this planet with the light as footprint as possible try not to live like a disposable life

and appreciate craftsmen who can truly make something that's built to last so you don't need to literally demolish a forest every six months to replace people's shitty furniture and stuff like that if bitcoin and a sound monetary standard whether we get ever get to a bitcoin standard

or even if we just have enough people that are in tune with storing value because sabers are punished these days and if we continue the path that we're going with negative interest rates and stuff it's not going to i don't think retail borrowers will ever benefit from negative interest

rates they'll always pay interest for borrowing those funds but i'm pretty sure savers will be on the tail end of those negative interest rates when the central banks are charging like they are in europe and we're seeing the european banked by buildings with large vaults to store physical

cash because they don't want to store it with the central bank these days or the ECB because of the the negative interest rates and stuff so i think if we get through all of that i wouldn't want to see like a total collapse overnight and then bitcoin to rise up in an instant i would hate to be

one of the few halves in a world of have nots you'd quickly become the target of the desperate for sure and i know for well the like the lengths that i would go to to protect and feed my family and whether that makes me a good person or a bad person i don't really care it's my family

it makes you a person yeah exactly we're all the same we'd all do it so i'd like to see a orderly like an orderly demise of this system that we're in now and an orderly path into the the promised land towards more a better better model of incentives for for people's behaviors and actions

maybe we could stop dropping bombs and fighting over arbitrary lines drawn on a map but then even if you look beyond that try and always fight so yeah it's interesting i've found and i imagine it's fairly similar where you are as well we're both British and i think there's a

certain British way which is maybe different to other countries but what what i've found is that if i say to someone or if i start lecturing them on bitcoin and how central banking is bad and and how there's a corruption in the system and all this sort of stuff they instantly shut off

and they don't want to hear it however the average person if you really say to them do you truly trust you trust the politicians they'll be like no do you feel like you're working harder now than you ever have you know life's harder yeah do you think it's wrong to be dropping bombs on other

countries and then you find out that actually there's no real reason for it other than oil or money yeah so we all feel the same they just maybe haven't linked that a lot of the root cause of this is unsound money so what i thought was really interesting about what your business is doing

and having these kiosks is i can imagine a world where people are going in and they're speaking to the people who are running these shops and they build a personal relationship with them and where it's a slow burner that the people who are who are selling the tickets or who have these

kiosks maybe over the course of a couple of months or six months or a year speaking to their customers and it just peeks that interest so that people dig a little bit deeper is that something that went through your mind when you came up with the idea of having these chaos no because i lost all

faith in human beings a long time ago inside like for instance that is the ideal situation but the vast majority of our merchants don't really care about bitcoin straight up we have got some that are bitcoiners we offer the ability for merchants to be able to receive their commissions

and we have a stacking Sats mode for merchants so all of their commissions are paid in bitcoin some of them take advantage of that and they have gone from zero to obtaining like acquiring bitcoins in that way earning bitcoin but the vast majority of them don't really get it's not actually

that the merchants themselves that's benefit from it they've got employees that are the ones interfacing with their customers and things like that so and we built the systems so the merchants don't have to have any knowledge or understanding of bitcoin to be able to offer our services but

with that all said just having all of the posters and the stickers and the signage and stuff like that that basically makes it people are going to walk past that every day and they're going to see that and that's how our things creep into people's consciousness when they start seeing it every day

so the next time they see the word bitcoin mentioned or in any discussion beyond some fucking idiot on facebook posting about some magic investment scheme retaining bitcoin that for me sets bitcoin back so much in the general amongst the general population because

everything they see sounds scammy and stuff like that whereas if they start to see the place where they can buy their groceries from and stuff like that it gives it a little bit more credence and going back to the comment about losing faith in the the general population of countries

in cypress i live through there for the the banking event where they literally confiscated they shut the banks whilst they negotiated with the IMF like the recapitalization of the banks the original idea was to haircut eight percent of everything over a thousand euros from people's bank

accounts everybody turned around said no that that's not happening so what they did was go for 50 percent of everything over a hundred k in people's accounts to recapitalize the banks but during in the meantime the capital controls and so all you could do is withdraw i think it was like initially

like 60 euros a day out of the atm per account all of the the bitcoin media hype was talking about oh bitcoin atms bitcoin is going to thrive in cypress because of all this that's just it's not actually what's really happening on the ground here people are taking

feed their family probably yeah exactly what you find is a lot of these like hype men are so disconnected from actual reality and you only have to like look at Venezuela and stuff and fully understand it yeah some people may be using bitcoin to move value across borders and to protect the

wealth from like hyperinflation and stuff but the vast majority of people just want food and they want survival they're not like wealthy sitting on stacks of gold reality but there's some people that are bitcoin's gonna save Venezuela this that and the other and it's just leaves me banging my

head against the brick wall but yeah with these capital controls people was taking like 60 euros a day out of the bank and like essentially a mini like a bank run as best they could but at the time the church in cypress is the biggest business on the island they are in like the breweries

property land you name it they own everything commercial properties they own telemic bank as well and it needed to be recapitalized so there's literally bankrupting the bank so they put the bank up for auction and the church needed cash to be able to bid in this auction to buy the bank back

so they issued a bond in the name of one of the saints and I drove past one of the churches in Nicosia and the the queues of people that was wanting to put the money into the church to buy this bond was just absolutely insane like hundreds of people queued up and I thought and I was there

building this bitcoin business in the idea of giving these people something different like a plan B yeah yeah and I just shook my head and thought are these people insane they are literally queuing up to give the church which is so wealthy yeah give them their cash to enable them to

rebuy the bank and I just thought yeah that's that's when I lost a lot of faith in the general population of countries be religious be whatever you want to be at home but to blindly give your money to the church because it's the church that's asking for it when you know exactly what they're

using it for is not yeah I've been there not cypress I've been there in terms of I've been of stage where I've lost all faith in humanity completely I really have and it was a quite a dark place for me however I've now got to a stage where I think most people want the same thing like

we're saying they want to feed their families they want their families to be safe they want to roof over their head they generally want an easy life but I think it's just that they follow the patterns of what everyone else is doing and they don't think I think if like yeah if they could be bothered if

you could somehow download the information that's in your head about bitcoin and about the way that banking works and actually what that church owns and really how fucking stupid what they're doing is and they had that information easily then they'd go oh yeah I'll go and buy bitcoin but it's that

leap is that it's just it's such a big leap that I don't know how you get that across are you familiar with like the Myers-Briggs test there's like the 16 personalities yes and it's like the N and the S type personalities and like the S types rightfully or wrongfully I I consider them

the sheep type personalities and the N type is obviously more inquisitive wants to know how things work and why things work and what have you and I do feel that I 100% know that I'm an N type personality and if you can classify humans into these little boxes but it ultimately does describe

how I work and I only have to literally reactivate a Facebook account to go and look on Facebook to realize that just the vast majority of people are in fact the complete polar opposite and they will share stories and they'll share absolute nonsense and they'll believe whatever's told to

them and they'll just parrot it and they won't bother checking anything for facts if it fits with them and we see these people in bitcoin as well because they're the ones that follow the hype men if you will and think that they're the next level genius because they've discovered

bitcoin and it's gone up from 3000 to 9000 over the space of a year and then suddenly they think that they've got like they know it all and they've got this air of superiority and amongst their their social circles and they they listen to the the tidbits of information and the quicks and the

the returns to criticisms of like bitcoin is bitcoin a ponzi it's like and stuff like that and we've built up so I've been guilty of it myself as well essentially taking arguments for bitcoin and even other associated like political like ideologies and stuff like that and just basically

imparting that on other people maybe in the wrong way and expecting them to absolutely agree with me and see see it the way that I see it and and things like that and no one does and no one cares yeah oh yeah the the football's back I can't really say football because football my dogs and my family and bitcoin pretty much that's my life

so but you know what I mean like oh what accumulator have you put on this week yeah it's more interesting than what the Kardashian's doing this week yeah yeah more interesting than oh the central bank's just printed six trillion dollars the feds just just just created or promised to buy a six

trillion dollars worth of assets and no out of nowhere yeah but the only time they'll care is in 18 months time they may not even see it when the shopping bill starts becoming 10 20 percent more expensive as the inflation starts to kick in that so we'll see but it's the the frog that's

boiled slowly doesn't jump out absolutely and there's I found there's no point in trying to push these ideas on people you know as part of the reason again why I started the show because I was so frustrated because I couldn't speak to you know if I spoke my mind about most things I would

just end up in arguments every two seconds someone would say something I'd go don't be so fucking stupid because of this this and this and because it's a contrarian view and they're acting like sheep you just end up arguing with everyone you fall out with everyone so I just separated it just

live my normal life let them do what they want let them buy their stock market dip you know that their financial advisors told them is definitely going to recover and be brilliant and there's no problems and it's all because of covid and there's no underlying issues just let them do it and say

if you want to listen to the show listen and if they're interested they will because otherwise you just let's say you end up falling out people I do that with my missus like I'll go and throw like a contrarian view at her when we're discussing something that's happening or going on and I'll

put that view out there and she'll push back and this is one of the reasons why I love her so much and it's because she'll take that and she'll think about it yeah and then she'll see it and then she'll discuss it and then the next time she'll be on the phone and she thinks I've turned her into

like somebody that's really harsh and it's like I turned you into somebody that acknowledges like self-responsibility and and she and I'll be like listening and she'll be on the phone to a sister or whatever and a sister or say something and then she'll just put my view at or what was originally

the way that I saw something and she'll argue with it and then she'll start falling out with

or debating it with them or explaining it to them yeah it's like it that's how it permeates and I'm pretty sure our family over the last three four maybe even five years since me and her has been together like with the kids and stuff that mindset has spread through all of them yeah it

does slowly doesn't it it's slowly that the logic slowly finds its way and people go oh yeah there's a finally a point where they just can't argue it anymore and they just go yeah you yeah you're right but then normally it's their idea that's what's happened with most of my friends is that

it once they once he clicks and they go yeah yeah well I've always said that and you're like no you know you have not you just let them have it yeah you know it's like the last general election my stepdaughter came to me she was like Danny I think labor's gonna win like Corbyn's gonna win

how bad is it is is things gonna be if if if Corbyn wins site is he really gonna like make it like proper socialist I was like all the politicians are done like not done but disingenuous fucking yeah I says yeah basically to want to go for that job you need to have something

wrong wide up inside of you because it's an insoluble job yeah you've either got to be a psycho or genius because you're getting paid an awful lot of money for doing an impossible job that you can never ever get right so why would you even try it yeah because you're never going to be out to

a piece like 66 million people in the UK or I struggled to appease one mrs and five kids so only god would know if he's even real how and if he would do that job yeah so yeah I was like no don't worry about it you're in a little echo chamber with all of your young friends that are

listening to stormsy telling everybody to vote labor as I said it's gonna be an absolute whitewash for the conservatives and I said I vote for the conservatives because I'd rather live in a world with those idiots running it than the other lot trying to taxes even more to hand out to the people

that don't want to do the work or take the risks and stuff so I just said just what you can do is concentrate on you and uh because she's like 16 at the time that's a cool thing with bitcoin as well is it's that looking after yourself responsible for yourself only you care for yourself and you

know if you fuck up it's your if it's your fault so for me I used to actually really care about politics I used to get really angry and obsessed about oh we've got to make changes because I felt something was wrong and I was disgusted with what I was seeing but I hadn't quite tweaked that it

was all down to the money and this last time was the first time that I just went I'm not even fucking voting anymore I just I'm so past it that I'm not even gonna take the time to go and do it because all I care about is trying to propel this thing forward look after my own family

sort out the the place that I live and that's it and and once I've stopped caring now when people come to me with oh this has happened in politics or this bloke drove somewhere he wasn't meant to or blah blah whatever bullshit I just I literally just like I don't care got more important things

to worry about and it's nice yeah my my my my question always is if that's what they're talking about what don't know what you're talking about yeah yeah look over here yeah and being in and around companies that have like that they all got we've got PR guy our PR guy set this interview

open and stuff but I had it in Cyprus where the PR machine it works in your favor we literally my marketing director in Cyprus she was brilliant arguably probably the best personally employed she received a phone call from the owner of one of the newspapers basically saying I think

I feel you should take out another advert on the front page of this newspaper otherwise we're going to write a negative article about bitcoin like in the week of us launching and stuff just absolutely insane and the well literally the the people that control the world isn't the media

it's the people that control the purse strings of the media so the PR agencies the publicists they're they're the ones that place the advertising money into these media platforms and stuff and people say oh social media is impacting the media and stuff but most of the stories are still released

that go viral on social media are generally driven by the mainstream media accounts on twitter and stuff like that if there's like a big press topic people still turn to those accounts is only it does happen where you see like a video of something happen like that Karen in the park

on the phone to the calling of Karen you're saying it's so good my mum's name was Karen spelled slightly differently and I was like thank god she's no longer around to have to listen to all of this now it's kind of tickles me but but yeah you do get some like videos that go viral on

their own mirror sometimes rightfully so sometimes it's just a short clip of a much larger context but it's the short clip that's gone viral and you don't get the the full context of the situation and stuff and it can be framed and what have you but the the thing for me is it's the the advertising

money rules the world so if you want to have some real influence spend a whole bunch on advertising because people write wherever they want you to write if you're spending money on adverts and stuff their money talks exactly there's a lofty question for you if we do get to a world where

we have let's just say for argument sake we do get a bitcoin standard or something close to it one of the things that I struggle with is if we get there and it even if it is a slow transition which is obviously anyone who's half reasonable or sensible would want that because otherwise it's

carnage is mad max if we do get that do you see this kind of idea of citadels or smaller areas being the answer or like what what do you see happening because we can't just go government-full totalitarian to zero government-zero rules like there has to be a yeah yeah for me the

reasonable side of me would let's take the UK for example and devolve as much power as you possibly can down to local council level so from instead of having one central government and lots of little local like county councils so basically make the counties compete with one

another to create the best environments for their the citizens and allow the people to to move freely amongst those and create different business environments and different zones and taxation it's a lot more it's probably a lot more like of a bureaucratic way because people will inject

themselves and the local governments will become bloated and stuff but if what we all like to believe is true as bitcoiners then the governments that don't do that will become the place to go to and the place to do business and what have you because the yeah

helicopter the RAF yeah it was a helicopter probably a shinnock oh no that didn't sound like a shinnock actually yeah where where was a jurisdictional arbitrage yeah yeah yeah that's the only way and local and people being one of 66 million is difficult to impart change on my the government

that would essentially tax me or what have you my my influence is extremely dilutive and that's my one of probably my largest gripe with the european union bigger isn't better for most things and if we lived in a bitcoin standard world the department of defense would probably need to be a lot smaller

i think it's disingenuous to call it the department of defense where it used to be called the department of war when we used to go invade in places because it still is the department of war and not really defense i know they kind of spruce it up and polish the turds and say it's uh we are we are

performing the act of defense in somebody else's land to stop them coming here when we all ask bullshit but as a whole i feel the it would be better to do it that way but then again it's all trade-offs as well because there's some things that would suffer in an environment like that it

wouldn't be perfect and if it was absolutely zero state it would be absolutely carnage as well and all of these what you also find is all these people that are like oh i'll have my guns and i'll protect myself and it's yeah good luck it's like most of these people most of these people yeah you

can take your gun down a shooting range and you'll be absolutely fine somebody comes and holds a gun to your head before you've had a chance to draw your gun or get it out or what have you your arsehole is going to be twitching and because you're a nerd that like me sits in writing code

those nerdy sorts of things like interest you and and when shit really gets real there's very few people that can say like 100 percent this is how i would react in that situation and then actually do well especially when it is not just you you know it's different if you're a single

bloke and then you can say well i don't fucking care you know pull the trigger but in reality if you've got a family it's a totally different story yeah and this is the thing like for me i say we're going to have some form of government period humans fall into leadership structures and

roles even left to their own devices we're animals basically we're pack animals so if i had to have a choice i'd be really conservative on a national government still conservative on like a local government but i'm generally socialist with those that are close to yeah like my immediate family

and stuff i wouldn't ever try and just put myself in a box of a political ideology yeah you don't and you don't shit on your own doorstep is that like if you're living say in a village if you're an arsehole yeah people are all going to hate you you're not going to want to live there

anymore and it's the same thing that if the decisions are made on a local level the people making that decision to close a local school so they can have a back hander and do some blow and hookers on the weekend that person eventually we found out the pitchforks are going to come out

yeah exactly but at the moment it's too big it's like oh well we know that that's what happens but they have security guards and there are in in london and there are the untouchables and you know we all know that it happens but they're not and they don't have to look us in the face you know

they don't have to see us and and have a conversation down the pub it's different and like i said for me bitcoin is the only way to protest that to really truly protest that because money is where the controls are but ideologically that's where i align to with bitcoin and as long as we

keep turning out blocks we've got a chance of giving bitcoin to an or having bitcoin in enough people's wallets worldwide for that to have any real level of impact yeah for sure it is a protest it's the biggest protest that anyone is the biggest statement anyone can make is just remove

themselves from the current system and just say i'm not playing your game anymore and it's very powerful and that's one of the reasons you know when we were saying at the beginning i like the model that you have in terms of getting it into local shops getting it more accessible because

not everyone wants to go online and and put all their details in and all that sort of stuff it's um it's about finding these ways to get it into normal people's hands and like you said earlier you know golden sacks slating bitcoin and the usual you have to expect that that's what they're

gonna do but fuck golden sacks because we don't want we want it to be in the hands of normal people we don't want these fuckers have been seeming for everyone forever to be in control or not in control but have a large stake in this system we don't want to think it's it doesn't take a

genius to work out that people with a lot of wealth right now are probably going to be in a position to buy more quick client than anybody else so there is still going to be some level of disparity of wealth regardless but that's because of the situation that we're in anyway but all you

can hope for is the people that truly benefit from that disparity and wealth are the last ones in yeah i doubt they will be no they won't be the first because they'll be too busy protecting their existing stack of fear and yeah or i wouldn't even say their existing stack of fear i would say

their their proximity to the printing press yes is what they would be protecting because whilst they're there and the cantilian effect and everything they're gonna push back yeah and try and ignore it and stuff which gives us an opportunity and a window to create the platforms and the software

and the solutions and to know what not everybody's going to want to hold and custody of their own bitcoin but that's why as companies we need to build the solutions that can enable these users i was doing this in 2013 2014 with neo-insipras that utilize like multi-sick to try and basically

give them that solution like the best practice without them having to fully understand that because people say now people are going to use centralized services yes they are unfortunately they are because not everybody is going to get it or not everybody's going to want that level of

responsibility and stuff but if we have the technology and the services and the platforms that basically force the best practices without it being full and frontal to the user then even better you're talking about multi-sick there it's something that i've not played around with yet

just i'm not the most technical guy by the sounds of it you very much are try not to be whoa what was your thoughts on i know there's things like caravan and some of these open source projects that are like trying to make things easier but you've obviously seen bitcoin and the

services around it develop for many years if you were to guess how long do you think it's going to be until setting up multi-sick by yourself is going to be secure and easy enough for the average not not an idiot but someone who's not massively techy it's i wouldn't like to try and read the tea

leaves when it comes to like the amount of time but it needs to be at a point where the terminology and everything we've just relaunched our interface and stuff and i've just looked at it over the last couple of days and said right this isn't it's better and we've got all of the functionality

but it's not good enough we can do better and i want to think because like setting up a casser multi-sick wallet and stuff is extremely it's quite simple now but you still it's still like the terminology and stuff for me it needs to be as easy as going to monzo to open up a bank account

in and out you don't even realize that you're setting up multi-sick and how that works and stuff for the real mass adoption if you will so i think we're still a way off that but people like i say the the most bearish people are the ones working on it and they're the people that i

like to listen to the most because if you if you listen to them there's like one thing people think that bitcoin is on break a ball this out of the other and it's it's scary that people still think this like 11 years after it started as if like we've never had any problems along those 11 years

there there's been bugs and also yeah there's a bug still in there that needs fixing before bitcoin breaks isn't that the one that's like 40 years away or something like that no no no no people that don't understand it think it's 40 years away it's about 90 years away because it's an unsigned

integer so we've got like an extra yeah and that's just a timestamp because satoshi for all of his brilliance wasn't the best developer and basically use the 30 bit 32 bit number instead of 64 so it will run out of yeah so we're going to run out of space and it will tick over to zero but the

consensus rules require the next block to have a timestamp that is greater than the previous block so that's going to go from like or run out it will run out and then it will like one block will be there and the next block will be require a timestamp that is larger than that one but the

timestamp will start counting from zero again for the next block so we won't be able to find a valid block but that's got to be fixed in about 90 years and people are fully aware of it and the smarter people than me working on the solution but right now as far as i'm aware probably wrong

the only way to solve that is with a hard fork at the moment because it's a change to the consensus like mechanism but i'm pretty sure like luke dash junior someone will find a way of soft forking a change in and there is discussions around it but like i said the smarter guys but but

these are the people that i would go to for advice on where bitcoin's going because they understand this not the hype guy oh we'll fix it like okay but the longer we go the harder bitcoin is to fork so how are you going to fix it don't tell me we're just going to fix it let's be realistic

how are you going to fix it or what's on the table to fix it and things like that yeah like you say as things go on it is going to get harder to change it and we're all i think i feel like it already is i think i mean there are certain things that are just i can't see ever

changing like what what would you say is never going to change for me the supply if that ever changed if someone introduced some form of inflation i'm done you're done i'm done and i feel i feel that it's one of the things that like when you're explaining it is like right hard cap

supply that's one of the things that people are like yeah that's good i like that because it's just simple it's like i want this share of the pie so certainly for me i'd be out and i feel like most people who are involved from what i've experienced are done so that for me that would be one okay

so have you thought about this that's that's us in today's we appreciate the value of that hard supply we truly appreciate that we've gone through this we can call it a hard time really we've lived for abundance we've never really had it fucking hard we've never had like rushing or anything like

that but we as people and bitcoiners today recognize that hard limit and the the inflation issue as being absolutely critical 200 years down the line when you're four five six generations away from that understanding how long until you get some sales guy that's really popular that starts talking

about the idea other people that are fundamentally around going to truly appreciate just what that hard limit means hard to say yeah i'm just talking theoretically but this is like probably my biggest fear for bitcoin the technical bugs we're pretty sure we can mostly work out it's not perfect and the

solutions will involve trade-offs i'm sure along the way but for me are the people that are going to be essentially responsible for the protocol down the line removed like generationally removed from us now are they going to appreciate what we're going to stand for and fight for today possibly not

once something becomes normal and accepted and it that there's been no fight for it for a while then people sort of sit back on their laurels i mean that is kind of human behavior yeah we don't learn from history i mean i just all i can hope is that i'm dead when that happens that's all i

i probably will be so yeah yeah you're probably right i think that's definitely a possibility and it would be sad because it would be a really stupid thing to do but it doesn't mean it won't happen because people can talk about also find the code and stuff now if we ossified the code now

bitcoin with last 90 years that's it because it didn't stop yeah so yeah so so for me it's how is it going to go forward if i've got another 50 years on this planet where's bitcoin going to be in 50 years i'll be that old dude shouting no you're not fucking changing that over my dead body

as i'm struggling to to breathe and i'm a heart attack um but yeah and like i can impart that on my daughter and my children that this is why these are the fights that we've had and the battles that we've had to get here and stuff but and people don't remember that and people's perception of time

like coin clipping in the roman empire at one point would have been absolutely caused outrage but it became acceptable as things got more comfortable and and if people learned from history then the world would be a very different place than it is right now yeah so we'll see absolutely

but yeah we will see so we've been on the call for nearly a hour and a half now before we close out is there anything that either we haven't covered that you particularly interested in or wanted to go through or anything that we've touched on and they're not gone into enough debt

or just end of had enough fuck off hacks i want to go and have my dinner oh i've already had my dinner we had an early dinner tonight where we've done football dogs yeah that little thing called bitcoin and toes got your toes i thought i'm scared of needles i'm uh needle manor yeah you need the

ripple logo you need the ripple logo on your cheek otherwise you're not a bad one that'll look nice i noticed you've got something on the back of your neck oh my whole back is a single massive piece and i always said that i would never have tattoos beyond the collar lines or the

the the wrists so they couldn't be covered up yeah that kind of went out of the window when i just constantly started working from home all the time and decided that i'd never want to go stick a suit on a gang um yeah and it kind of my back piece kind of got extended up my neck so

yeah that's that on my neck do you ever get the other thing other than me being just a complete pussy when it comes to things like that the other thing for me is like i get bored of things quickly so i was like there's never been anything where i've gone do you know i love that so much

other than maybe the ripple tattoo but there's there's nothing else that i really want and just think i want that for the rest of my life and i'm going to love that for the rest of my life see when we're done recording i'll show you my back pieces uh memorial piece to my mother and my family

i stupidly got my surname tattooed across the summer back when i was like 18 in old english so it's kind of like melted into the rest of my back piece now so everything means something and the the piece on my neck is actually a heart with a silhouette of me and my mother walking into the

the distance so everything on there is like symbolism and mean something to me even though i kind of forget that i've got it yeah most of the time until like now no no tattoos don't hurt anymore they are they're used to but eight hour sittings the the worst thing is just the pulling

of the skin oh really yeah but the tattoos have come so far in say the last 15 20 years and there are some of the art that you can get now it's just mind-blowingly good so yeah they're addictive so yeah i've heard that i've heard that so yeah i thought about getting or starting a sleeve and maybe like

some of the the economists and the stuff around bitcoin because bitcoin has played such a massive part of my life now and then it was like do i do that or do i go for like Liverpool legends

in my opinion not that it makes any fucking difference at all the bitcoin thing sounds really cool because it's bigger than just bitcoin it is like you're saying it not only is it played a big part in your life but it encapsulates so much of what's going on in history and i feel

like this is a moment in history that if we succeed in what we're trying to do i think should be remembered for hundreds and thousands of years so yeah it's special i would be remembered as the guy that came forth on the coin desk 2014 heroes and villains list of people just behind mark parlors

and warren buffet in the villains list oh really yeah although i'm pretty sure coin desk would let me advertise with them now but yeah i i'd like to i'm not even first if people forget who i am if people can point back and say i use fast bitcoins to get my first bitcoins or i use them to stack

my sats up we've even just added the referral scheme so people can earn sats by referring customers and we're going to add it so you can refer merchants and stuff to us as well so people can earn bitcoin people seem to forget that as an option as well so if people can do that and there's actually a song

i was listening to on my last run and it's like someone said you you die you die twice once when you declare dead by a doctor and the second time is when they mention your name for the somebody last mentions your name and then you're truly dead because nobody's ever remembered you or

mentions your name ever again and i thought that's is that egotistical to think that way and then i thought about it i thought that's when i thought i'd rather just people be able to point to the company and say yeah i use that because i point to intersango which was a british exchange

that was like one of the founders was like amia tacky in 2012 think it was buying bitcoin on there using faster payments it was just a total and we seem to we went backwards from there it felt but now different because we've got coin floor i love to see what obe is doing i hope is a good

friend and there i know they sponsor you but great to see his turnaround from being a multi coin exchange coin exchange yeah to seeing that turnaround into their no bs model absolutely love it and there's like exats and then just like the coin coin coiner team as well based out of the Isle of Man they're

doing great stuff love to see it and there's exats as well which is being developed and it's based out here in the uk as well so we've got what's happening and hopefully we can start to see more and more people develop cool ways and easy ways and stuff i like seeing that what's

coming from uk i've now had a conversation with ob and i've had a conversation with you and the difference between you can say it was nicer talking to me than ob you can say it yeah yeah yeah no i think it was i think it was definitely nicer than you no it's it's so it's so nice to see real people who really care about bitcoin and

you know when i listen to like fucking coinbase and and the sort of things that they're putting out and these shitcoin casinos it really pisses me off so it's nice to see now you guys going out and first of all it's nice you both i've spoken to both of you and you both spoke in your mind

you both said the way you feel you said yes we have to comply by certain regulations but you obviously care about bitcoin and i like that you're making this more accessible to people and i like that it's coming from the uk so yeah it's nice to see yeah did you see that the ceo of that exchange

that we don't like to mention we applied to the fake account jk rolling one jk trolling yeah yeah yes yeah that was brilliant i was so funny i just like how how do you fall for that i shouldn't say that because i fall for something next year yeah yeah that was very funny the problem is is

these these companies these like shitcoin exchanges they've bloated themselves through the good times and then they found themselves oh shit after the crash now we need to start generating revenues the only way to do that is by allowing rampant gambling on their on their platforms and i'm

friends with safety i don't agree with absolutely everything he says but he's uh i agree with him on a lot when it comes to bitcoin i don't really necessarily agree with him on art me too i'm an artist and he'd hate my art he'd absolutely hate it so i don't agree with him on that either

and so if you've done any bitcoin art you can they have all of the bitcoin art stuff at coinfest and Manchester i'll do that yeah i have some behind me yes that's awesome that's our graphic designer lee holland he exhibits at uh coinfest and and stuff very close of art it's in

in Britain so get some bits done and get it displayed but but yeah i there was um uh was it the spec yeah the spectator held in a debate against Arthur and Norielle Rabini in London or safety team was there i think it was Andrew Neil that hosted it i don't can't

remember if it was Norielle i think i watched this yeah and i was in the crowd um because we went for a state dinner after and the or the night before and like just that alpha from bit mex was just like hyping and the the guy from bit mex that does their research is next level he's

awesome proper research yeah yeah he's he's awesome lovely that talk to as well but then he got after like sat on the stage like talking about bitcoin being on hackable and all of that nonsense like completely ignoring history and everything that came before it and i thought

it's no one these people aren't really helping bitcoin they're there to make money yeah yeah there's which is fair play yeah there's an opportunity who am i to to say anything otherwise but it kind of just spelt out clearly to me listening to somebody laughing about owning the racetrack

so and not having or benefiting from all of the horses in the race it's a smart way to to be and do but for me there's more to it than just that yeah yeah money's money's nice and you can't get annoyed at people for wanting to earn it but for some of us this is about more and for some of

us when we're on our deathbed we want to have made a change in the world and made it better you know and making a load of money doesn't necessarily do that i've toyed with the idea of what would actually happen if when you died all of your wealth just evaporated or you could only leave

so much obviously people would then transfer it before they died to friends and family in gifts and stuff but if that was a thing so basically your death and the capital that you had acquired throughout your life and your assets evaporated how many people would stick around yeah how many

people would just accumulate well for the sake of accumulating wealth then yeah but it's just a scorecard at the end of the day and as we've touched on like here with all the gold makes the rules if you make all of the gold or acquire and capture all of that value and the gold

how good of a person are you to still stick to the original ideas that you have when you are making the rules are you just going to protect yourself or you're gonna stick to what keep the status quo power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely yeah it's all philosophical it's true

though it's true yeah so yeah a bit of a random discussion that's how i like it listen it's been it's been really great chatting to you even if it was better than i would be no no no no it's i would be actually petting me now so he's he's my new favorite person man with all the gold

makes the rules that's it exactly no uh no it's honestly it's it's been awesome speaking to you and i really like what you're doing it's something that's getting bitcoin into the hands of more people and to my mind that's what matters so thanks so much for taking the call anytime in the future

you have any more releases or anything going on let me know and that hopefully we'll see you at this what was it called coin fest coin fest yeah yeah it's full of shit coiners because the organizer likes to keep it free for everybody so we can allow him to dump people's shit coin bags

to do that no qualms with him doing that yeah we are one of the sponsors and stuff so yeah it's hopefully we'll see you there bring your recorded equipment there'll be people there to capture interviews with them stuff all the time so sure we can grab a drink and rip on some shit coiners

as well yeah i think we're doing the lightning powered bar because through our device you can accept lightning payments so all of our merchants accept or can accept lightning payments at the point of sale and i think we're going to be providing the the process payment processing at the bar at

the the event as well i'm not sure if that's still happening or not but cool so yeah i'll let you buy me a uh adult coke all right we'll get something on the side as well all right nice to speak to you mate and uh hopefully we'll chat again soon take any time cheers mate cheers