EP30 Bitcoin podcast with Brian Harrington.

Welcome back to BitByBit. Today I speak with Brian Harrington. We talk about earning, spending and saving Bitcoin. I know for a lot of people the idea of spending Bitcoin is a little bit crazy and to be honest I think for most people especially if they've just started to save some Bitcoin or if they've got a

very small proportion of their portfolio allocated to Bitcoin it probably is a little bit crazy but for people who are a bit further down the rabbit hole and want to push this circular economy forward I think it's something that we should really consider. It's something that I was always going

to do for my website and for my art setting up a BTC pay server but after chatting with Brian I am spurred on more than ever to get this done. We also talk about the best ways to save and store your Bitcoin as well as the best ways to buy your Bitcoin. Brian is very much of the opinion that you should have separate

buckets. You can have some access cash and some to buy from exchange. I also share this opinion. I've said many times on the podcast if you're trying to buy Bitcoin and you don't want KYC I would suggest that you use Bisk or HODL HODL there are other services available as well. If you want to buy some Bitcoin on

an exchange I can only really suggest one company. They currently sponsor the podcast and they are absolutely fantastic. They are Coin Floor UK the link will be in the show notes and I recently interviewed the CEO Obie for anyone who hasn't already checked that one out go and have a listen and I'm sure you will

feel comfortable and confident when you buy with coin floor. Thanks very much for listening and I hope you enjoy the show. Brian thank you so much for coming back on again to any of the listeners. I'm a complete idiot and we actually recorded a week or two ago. It was a great episode

but I had not set up my audio equipment properly wasted Brian's time and he's been very good about it. So back on for the second time to bit by bit is Brian Harrington. Can you introduce yourself please? For sure what's up and no last time was helpful. Just any conversation where you can just talk about live is

always helpful. So it was not a waste of time. It clarified a lot of things in my head about what we'll go over today. So yeah my name is Brian Harrington. I'm a Bitcoiner from California. I live in Orange County, California. I'm a part of the Orange County Bitcoin network. Good crew of Bitcoiners that meet up here and

I've done a lot of stuff in my life you know politics and marketing. Just Bitcoin and like all of it has kind of like revolved around just this idea of freedom and this idea of freedom is something that's been just growing in my head as time goes on and just everything that's happening in the world right now

has kind of like forced me to clarify even what I'm trying to do with Bitcoin. And so that's kind of been what's driving my just tweets recently and just thoughts recently and I think that's how we got connected. So yeah I'm just thankful to talk it out anytime that I'm able to. Yeah I mean since our last

conversation I've been following you more on Twitter and it's something I hadn't really thought about before and we're obviously going to get into it but you're very much about spending Bitcoin using Bitcoin not just todling Bitcoin. To be honest with you when we first spoke I was much more on

the side of well just hold it and you know there are good reasons to do it but after speaking to you and seeing what you're writing about I am starting to think we've got to be careful and we've got to make sure that we do use these tools they're very very useful and this circular economy could be so powerful.

So I'm glad someone is standing up and sort of is a little bit of a contrarian view in the Bitcoin community and I'm glad that you're actually bringing it to everyone's attention. Yeah and it didn't start from any sort of like oh I want to piss a bunch of people off today or like oh

what's the like most bombastic anti what everybody else is saying thing that I can come up with like no this this really happened to me live and I'm talking and tweeting about it live in this terms of like I was the same way but I first bought Bitcoin in 2015 and I've just been buying a little bit the

whole time just because it's you know a fun thing to do on the internet and a fun way to save money and then you get all the politics and everything involved with it that you know I enjoy also which is like the like the world is changing no doubt the world is changing and so just buying Bitcoin by itself is already

such a massive like you're already such a massive contrarian if you're buying Bitcoin that like I think that's why everyone is so passionate about different things in their own way because it already just pre selects for people that have strong opinions and are willing to go against the narrative of the entire

world and so that's like that's what I want to say in and of itself is that I'm not I'm not like preaching oh everybody has to start spending Bitcoin everyone's doing it wrong like there's Bitcoin doesn't have a problem like Bitcoin works Bitcoin works great and it's working every single day for lots of

different people and so just what I've experienced recently is trying to figure out how much commerce am I doing though on the legacy system rails and is it possible to do it on Bitcoin because so rather than just taking everyone else's word for it that like oh it's too hard to buy groceries with Bitcoin or like it

doesn't make mathematical sense to buy by groceries with Bitcoin I honestly just like was just decided to why not just try it why not just try it and just see like check the map for myself and that's where I've been trying to figure out the incentive of like does it work to replace and spend and do I

feel any different and the answer is like I feel great like the answer is I'm I've learned more about Bitcoin and learned more about how to use Bitcoin in the last 90 days then I have you know since first getting into it in 2015 so talk me through like last 90 days you've decided right I'm gonna really get my

hands dirty I'm gonna use this technology what have you found is there anything that's surprised you anything that you didn't see coming or that you you found more useful than you maybe thought you would have or you know what's the experience been like for you yeah honestly the thing that was the most

useful and most different for me was like downloading samurai wallet and I've talked about this a little bit before that like I thought samurai wallet was for other Bitcoiners I thought samurai wallet was for other Bitcoiners that were better at being private than I was and it was this complicated you know

thing and like like I'm an iPhone guy I'm an iPhone guy like use cash app I use like every mainstream thing you put in the US you know so like I'm not a cypherpunk I'm not a privacy maximalist I'm not any of that and so that's why I thought samurai wasn't right for me but thankfully through our meetup I was able

to meet some guys that were willing to you know kind of talk me through it and make me realize that you know you like you don't have to give up your iPhone like go and buy like and so I did this I went and bought a used pixel a Google pixel 3 off Craigslist and I wiped it down to factory data and I just loaded

samurai on it like from the android packet file right from their website so I never signed in the Google Play Store and like that feels awesome to now I have like I only have one device in the whole world then the whole world that's not docs like and it's my black like pixel 3 with samurai wallet on it and so

that's cool to be able to like that and that's what I tell other people is don't stop anything you're doing everything you've are all the apps you've already tried a Bitcoin all the honor amps you've already tried keep doing all that like there's too much we when we hear advice from other

Bitcoiners that are maybe more mature in their journey and more have tried out more wallets and stuff we we don't stop to ask them what their goals are for the apps that they're using and so we immediately think oh the way that I'm using Bitcoin is wrong I have to do the way they do it but then you know you

run into problems where like I'm an iPhone guy and I buy from the mainstream changes in the US like that's completely different that then someone who like runs samurai wallet and buys off of Bisk so like don't like you don't have to switch up your whole stack like it's okay to have multiple stacks and it's

okay to go experiment with different on ramps and different wallets in other ways and the easiest way that I found to do that like was with a separate device and like in that in another reason why the samurai wallet was so different for me was because like now that they have mobile mixing on like on the phone the

the mixing and like coin joint is no longer confusing to me because I always saw like like if you're using coin joint if you're using coin joint and you deposit the clean UTXO and the change UTXO to the same hardware wallet you're undoing a lot of the privacy that you just paid for through the coin joint and

so I always heard that in it but again so it sounded too complicated like I don't I don't have great UTXO control like I'm not I'm not that great about but samurai wallet for the first time it lets you label each UTXO and it lets you have mobile mixing and then there's just the unmixed side of your wallet and

mixed side of your wallet and I just you know send it through there and I spend out of the mix side now and so in that sense I in that sense like I achieved like digital cash for the first time like and so so I wrote this post from my my website where I put you know the pixel right next to a hundred

dollar bill and I just said like I I finally did a you know cash transaction you know as close to a cash transaction over the Internet as I've had before and so that's like that's been the light bulb that has really driven this last this last little journey for me the flow for you would be buying from an exchange

sending it onto samurai doing the mobile mixing for any spending so anything that's going out is always being mixed and that's just obviously helping with your privacy and anonymity yeah exactly except the funds that I use with my samurai lot I buy all peer-to-peer here in Orange County so I haven't that's and

that's where my different flow is like like if I'm gonna buy on cash app then I'm just gonna send it to my you know normal multi-sig that I use but if I'm gonna buy it peer-to-peer you know through just people that I know in the county then I'm gonna use it the same way I would use a hundred dollar bill and

my wallet you know but just inside samurai yeah I like that I like the idea of keeping things separate in terms of you know you can have your KYC stash you can have your cash stash like you were talking about before these different buckets the record at these exchanges doesn't go away like it doesn't

matter if you write it doesn't matter what implementation of coin join you use the record at these exchanges does not go away and so that's what that like if you're looking to you know try to do this and try to set up a samurai wallet with just you know peer-to-peer Bitcoin just keep doing whatever you're doing on the

other side keep doing whatever you're doing with your other you know stored for the long-term funds and just practice like practice getting involved in peer-to-peer and practice mixing I think it scares a lot of people off before speaking to you last time I basically never would spend my Bitcoin it's just

not something I'd ever do because I was like oh well I have to buy it and then if I'm buying it on BISK then it's normally eight to ten percent more money so then if I spend it is I was just like ah there's no real need but I think that the idea of this circular economy I mean certainly I always wanted to accept

Bitcoin for my art and on the website and for any work I'm doing I want to be accepting Bitcoin but the more I think about it if we do have enough of us who are exchanging then it doesn't really matter because we're working in SATs not converting to pounds anyway so it doesn't really matter as long as you're

dealing with other Bitcoiners so it's about growing that exactly and it's about and it's about pulling in commerce they are already doing anyways like like it sounds if someone doesn't listen closely like like you know it sounds Keynesian I'm like oh spending is great spending is good that's that's the

revolution we have to just you know all run around and know like us like me buying stickers and just like doing random stuff is not like that's that's great like by stickers as a test transaction to learn how to do it and you know that's great I don't think that's bad but what I'm more interested in is

trying to figure out like just today okay I needed like I need of the USB cable could I go could I go to Amazon and buy the USB cable yes I could but like could I go to mine farm by calm which is like I'm pretty sure it's mine farm by calm this you know Bitcoin or that you see around on Twitter and

he sells computer cables and mining equipment and whatever or you know and so it's like it's like and maybe the difference is you know I go spend $12 on Amazon but if I can spend $15 you know with him and so yeah like there's there's absolutely a trade-off and there's absolutely fees and there's

absolutely like you're gonna overpay like you you're going to overpay spot when you're buying Bitcoin on bisque and you're going to spend a little bit more most likely when you're like spending with these Bitcoin companies so you're right you you have to factor that in and it kind of is I think it

reaches this point like why there's such a split right now between kind of like kind of OG Bitcoiners and then kind of it's a split between kind of like the 2011 2013 crew and then kind of like 15 17 20 crew and I think it all has to do with like how much how much you're in like if you're in and this can happen

to anybody's network but once you get to this point where like your fiat stack in your Bitcoin stack are just kind of neutral like they're just kind of both equal that for your day-to-day life you're every new dollar that comes in or every new pound that comes in you know you kind of know what your percentage is

that you send a Bitcoin and your percentage that you keep in you know fiat and number one number one I think that needs to be talked about more and that's why I like the idea of Bitcoin budgeting the whole concept of you know how much do you keep in fiat and how much do you keep in Bitcoin I don't think

that's talked about enough like I want to hear other people's tips on how they manage that because then then once you know from a savings perspective how much you keep in fiat how much you keep in Bitcoin then you can go on the other side and look from a spending perspective okay if I spend you know if I spend

two thousand dollars a month on all these different categories of things where can I just find a hundred dollars worth of that stuff to move over into the Bitcoin economy and then I spend $1,900 and like you know USD and a hundred dollars in Bitcoin and then just try that for a few months and see if this

fee if you really are getting eaten up by fees like yeah if that's if that's causing your savings sat stack to go down so drastically absolutely don't do that absolutely don't do that but like start to look at it like like we're all really good at thinking internally about our savings perspective all I do all I

want to do is I want us to think about our spending and in the same way what percentage do I do with the legacy system and is it possible to do some percentage of this in the new system it's an interesting idea and it's kind of like I guess to probably a lot of people outside of Bitcoin they're like yeah

well obviously you're gonna spend it like if you're kind of gonna use it as money then obviously you're gonna spend it so I think what would be nice is to see I mean you were saying before like oh you might buy a cable and it will cost a little bit more if you're doing it with Bitcoin I can't see why it can't

go the other way so like for example I would happily take a 10% cut on any the cost of any of my artwork for except it to accept Bitcoin like I'd like allow people to pay me 10 probably even 15% less than I would accept in fear yeah because I want the Bitcoin and I also like I like the idea of getting to a

point where I don't really have to deal with banks anymore that would be the ideal if you can earn it and then you know everyone else that you're dealing with you can spend it with then it would be much nicer it gets us much quicker to this world that we all talk about of like oh well fuck the system we don't

trust the banks we don't trust what's going on we want to cut them out well maybe we can do it a bit quicker totally I think you're right I think there will be a lot of cases where it is where it's a discount for Bitcoin I think that that works best at it'll take the specifically with this example this

morning the part that was more expensive was the shipping cost like this so the cost of the cable was actually the same the cost of the cable was the same but the shipping cost dealing with independent online retailers shipping is going to be higher than dealing with kind of the big box store retailers but like all we

have to do is get a little bit of volume going so that we can so that the merchants can dial in their systems better and you know maybe it's you know hit thirty five dollars and get free shipping or whatever like there's tons of cool stuff you can do with e-commerce so but but it is but like for me doing

that first one helps me to then like think about it better and I can like it's the same way as sending Bitcoin transactions like when you when you're first sending Bitcoin transactions I used to set I used to set high fees like I used to just let the fee estimator do it for me because I was nervous about it

getting there right but now I'm comfortable not to know dial it all the way back to one sad because I know that it'll show up and so it's kind of the same thing with some of these e-commerce things is that like the first or locally like like you you won't be able to figure out like your exact pricing for

what the market is for you know you're in Bitcoin if you don't you know sell a few and so and maybe maybe you won't be able to maximize it exactly right but whoever's taking the other side of that deal for you locally is still like it it's still a cool experience that's happening but I think I absolutely think

you're right like I I think lots of people end up offering discounts to get people moving into Bitcoin and the issues that we're talking about there with the shipping costs that's for physical goods as we move more and more into this digital world a lot of the services that we're going to be using a

lot of you know for example if I want someone to do some editing for my podcast well I can pay them a Bitcoin and I'd rather pay a Bitcoiner to do it because I'd rather support something that I believe in so I think it's almost like we need some kind of directory or somewhere that people can find by

category what it is they want and then see what is there a Bitcoin are offering these services I don't know whether that's possible obviously is possible but it needs someone much more technical than me to do it but something like that would be pretty cool totally agree totally agree I've yeah just putting out

feelers for different kinds of directories and there's there's some out there in different formats but I agree there's there's no one universal search for you know how do I get involved you know in the economy and so that's I think that's definitely something that even just in the past few

weeks I feel like the more that I've seen other people talking about this so I think the mind share is shifting in the positive direction we will start to see those directories and then we'll have in the directories drive competition which will like you know get the pricing dialed in to where it's more comfortable and

yeah that's cool yeah that is that's proper free market stuff then something about when you're talking about paying other people for editing and stuff so something cool that happened to me this week - was this guy came over a friend of mine came over and worked on my house and you know he's he's working on my

house as a friend and helping me figure out how to fix things but then I was like dude hey like I appreciate your time today and so I paid him like 50 bucks a Bitcoin and and that's just his first so that's the first Bitcoin he's ever had so like that's crazy that inside 2020 this guy who just kind of

introduced the economy the first Bitcoin he ever got was was Bitcoin that he earned and that's really powerful like so he's so he's starting off this whole thing and a completely new place then you know I did in 2015 and a lot of people did and so that's I think that's cool and I think that is gonna happen

faster than we think and so in him asking so then him asking okay well where do I spend it or how to like what do I do with it now you know and I say you know you for sure want to hold on to it like I don't I'm not immediately preaching that he should you know walk over to this website and buy like dumb

stuff with it like no like that is first 50 bucks a Bitcoin like he he needs to like hodl that and stick with that and like do more work to earn more and add to it from you know his fiat position also and so that's a positive that's a net positive transaction for him because now a higher percentage of his savings is

now in Bitcoin instead of it being all in fiat it's a higher transaction for the Bitcoin economy because I would have paid him $50 in cash anyway so instead of that cash you know just staying in the legacy system it moved into the Bitcoin system is now sitting in the Bitcoin system and so I think I think commerce

can actually raise like it can raise the economy it can raise the net flow into Bitcoin well it helps with fees and all that kind of stuff as well you know we do need there to be activity on the chain and then the other thing that I saw you'd paid someone with an open dime did I when I was scrolling through how have

you found that experience yeah so open dimes are another one of these things just like samurai wallet that I was you know I was nervous to try because I didn't want to spend the money on the USB you know on the open dime I wanted to you know that's with it and so thankfully like a friend of mine you know

and so and so I'll address that like that's not weird like if you feel like that that's not weird I felt like that and I think it just takes time it takes time to where your fiat stack and your Bitcoin stack just become in equilibrium you know based on whatever your financial situation is and that can happen at a

high amount or it can happen at a low amount it doesn't and just you get to this point where you're already like buying more to hodl it is positive but I'm looking for more freedom like I need more freedom in the right now and so that's what like caused me to start searching around but so yeah like my

buddy and I were just like out at a local bar and like we both had open dimes like he had one on his necklace and I had one on my keychain and like so we were just sitting with him like on the bar talking about him and then these like all these other just like like boomers just their eyes lit up when we started

talking about like that and they were able to like physical then touch open dimes and so yeah like one guy wanted to buy it from us on the spot but he didn't have enough cash and so we like did this whole thing where he covered our beers and we sent him Bitcoin to his to his new wallet that he had and then and then

so I ended up just giving I'd ended up just giving the open down to my body too because he covered me and I just said you know I'll get another one so and again so did the whole transaction make complete economic sense all the way down to the penny like oh yeah this is like no problem everybody should start doing

this right now no like is it clunky like is it whatever yeah but I mean that's me and my buddy just having fun out at a bar like onboarding people in real time and so I kind of want like I want to get back to that like where it's like this I don't want it to just I don't want Bitcoin to just be this just this side

quiet thing that I do where I'm just like squirreling money away and hoping for the number to go up like like that's not dude that's stocks like I already do like people already do that in the US with stock like Bitcoin is not a stock like Bitcoin is cool if Bitcoin wasn't if Bitcoin was just a stock then like I

don't think we would all be like sitting around here like talking about it and so I'm trying to I'm trying to like break out and like think more a lot of what we do isn't efficient like you say Bitcoin is fun it's different it should be exciting like it is a revolution and it shouldn't be hiding in the shadows

and all of that kind of stuff and it isn't efficient my time spent on Bitcoin is the least efficient thing I've ever done in my life by far like you know doing this podcast and spending the amount of time that we spend to learn all this stuff and and learn how to use all the technology and all this stuff

well you'd be much better off working in it almost any other job but it's exciting and fun so well and and so far right like so far there hasn't been like we can't quantify this like giant return on investment for like me and you like sitting here today talking about this and anyone spending their time like

listening to it like so far so far it looks like this this other you know random hobby that like people do but the you know number go up is gonna go up on that also like the like the the speed at which you're ahead of like understanding this and the speed of which you can explain to others and like

give people freedom in their lives like think about the original people that like ever taught you about Bitcoin and like and how where you hold them in life you're you are that for so many other people and like that's where the return on investment is gonna come from and but but I love how you said you're right

like it doesn't it doesn't make economic sense in reality right now it doesn't make economic sense and that's why the whole like learning the earn and spend aside of the Bitcoin economy is so important because it's like I don't want to go back to a desk job in the legacy system I don't want to go that is a trap

and it's and this isn't even just general you know bashing nine to five or whatever I I don't mind nine to five I enjoy working in offices I enjoy working with other people and I and I don't hate that aspect of it and it doesn't bother me that I have friends and family that are you know in that world what bothers

me is how rigged the legacy system is and so like I want I want that stability of being able to go to a desk job just in the Bitcoin economy and so if that means that I have to you know clunkify around and try to figure out how to buy stuff on the internet with it that's fine like that's an investment in like

this economy that I want to work in I want to go to a desk job for Bitcoin I don't want to you know just go back to the legacy system like that's why I'm here and so in that sense it like it's that's that's why I'm passionate about it is because it's it's not because oh look this is so cool it's a hobby like

no the legacy system is dying and it's trapping people I don't want to go back to that I want to go to the future yeah it definitely feels like it's the future and it feels like doing this kind of stuff is gonna accelerate it you know spending it using it is gonna accelerate it and also it's not just

that like you said going back to a nine to five it's not the fact that you're doing work behind a desk it's that you're you almost feel like you're helping a system that is designed to ruin people's lives and enrich a very very small proportion of people who know what they're doing and yeah by participating in it

you're part of the problem and and that's how I feel now is like I just don't want to be involved it just it just feels dirty to me now because now when I understand really what's happening I just think oh we can't be part of this we have to have something better and there is something better so we have to make

it happen absolutely because no one else is going to right right if not us then who and and that's why like the the three dollars that I may have overpaid because I I ordered a cable from this website or is pennies compared to the amount of middlemen that have ripped me off in my life for my labor like that's

that's what it comes down to and it's like when everyone just wants to and that's that's the mind shift that I'm trying to get everybody to make is that like look you think that you're overpaying a Bitcoin is clunky to spend or whatever that's nothing compared to the amount that the legacy system is ripping

you off there's so many different middlemen between your job and the grocery store that you go to or the new phone that you buy that you're like you're right Bitcoin is a deal like you're it's a it's a deal it's saving you time it's saving you labor and so and it just gets better every time you do it so you're

right I think it's like we're it's like we're we're over quantifying like we're yeah we're over quantifying the little sats fees that we pay in Bitcoin when we're under quantifying how bad the legacy system rips people off it's horrific it's it's one of those things I always felt something was wrong and I

always have this feeling I was just like it doesn't nothing adds up and and everything seems like it's getting harder for people and people are working harder and things are more difficult and people are more stressed and you know I never trusted what the politicians were saying and all any of the stuff that you

see on the news and and when you really dig deep enough you're just like oh it's all just it's all just designed to just fuck people over and like I do that's really like the main reason I mean obviously the Bitcoin technology is amazing and you know it's revolutionary and having sound money is great but the

fact that people can now just exit the people that can just go ah I just gonna use this other system it seems fairer like we know where we stand it may not be quite as efficient sometimes in certain areas but like it's not supporting this terrible system that everyone's feeding into I think people especially like now

I don't know what's happening really what you're seeing over there I know there's like rioting and protests and you know lockdowns and everyone seems to be at their wit's end so it seems like it's perfect timing for this new system to be hit right yeah I exactly agree with all that and that's why I think I think

norm normies like I think regular people are closer to Bitcoin than we get them credit for I think I think you're right I think everyone knows that the system is rigged everyone's frustrated like even this guy like this guy that I met this week that bought our beers and we sent him Bitcoin you know just like you

could see it and you could hear him like he he used the word like crushed he was like I feel crushed like this is it just doesn't work like it's it's doesn't work and it's not fair and and you can you can talk to millions of people that feel the exact same way and so that dude I just been yeah reminding myself of

that reminding myself of that is that Bitcoin is so completely different it's just a complete different paradigm and so if you're stuck in thinking about it just like a stock like just move it around a little bit and think about think about the portfolio of your life think about the portfolio of where you

go every day what you do for the money that comes in how much money you have to send out in order to you know have your standard of living and look for ways you know look for ways to cut costs so that you can get more into the Bitcoin economy and then also look for necessities that aren't bad you know paying for a

house isn't bad buying groceries isn't bad buying new phone isn't bad you know none of that's bad being a being the consumer of things is not bad being an over consumer of things you know is where you can get into trouble but Bitcoin is a separate economy earn save spend in Bitcoin and look at the percentage that

you do in the legacy world and look for ways to do it in the new world and as as people start to do that then this is this is what we need from our Bitcoin influencers like look I'm I believe Bitcoin is a community I know I know people talk about the nuances like what that means or no it's a it's you know

it's all individuals that that use Bitcoin in different ways like oh it's a section of like other communities like I you know I'm kind of gonna drop all that nuance and stop hedging and I'm gonna say Bitcoin is a community like Bitcoin is an hour Bitcoin is an economy an economy is a community okay and so

with that mindset just look at total like I don't I don't want to look it I don't want to look at like the market cap number anymore like I want to look at the like GDP like what's the GDP what's the global what's the global product being created in the legacy system which the numbers are rigged in the legacy

system and then what's the GDP inside the like Bitcoin economy like let's get new stats new stats new words new ways of you know thinking about this like I don't think I like we shouldn't ask these podcasts we shouldn't ask people how they got into Bitcoin anymore we should ask them how do you use Bitcoin like

what stack do you use what wallet do you use what no D's and why and and then you know how do you how do you earn Bitcoin you know or if someone's like you know I just save it right now I have never touched I don't spend it that's awesome that's not a bad answer I'm not gonna stand here and say that that's a

bad answer I'm not gonna bash like saving it because numbers gonna go up and the legacy system is dying I agree I agree I do the same thing so my follow up question though to that is okay how do you decide how much to spend or sorry how do you decide how much to save how do you decide how much to keep in your

national currency and how much to keep in Bitcoin because I want to hear about that like I want to hear about that and I want to say like okay so that's how much you decide and then when would those numbers change and and so or like what signal what signal are you waiting for in order to say like oh we've

arrived you know now it's time to start leaning into the economy because if your signal is some fiat level price I would say okay well then what's your goal is your goal to sell back out then realize fiat gains and do something in the in the legacy system because in that sense like I'm not sure wait that's fine like

that's fine like you do you deserve to you know improve your standard living because of you know having early like early information to like this new paradigm but I would challenge you to like think bigger like if that if that's your end game I would challenge you to think bigger that's treating it like a

stock isn't it that's that is literally just treating it as an investment and you know when can I cash out and I think you're right that the ideal is that you don't have to cash out you just you would just use it what you know the value in it will have more purchasing power but you don't need to need to buy Bitcoin to

hold Bitcoin to then resell it for dollars to then buy something you don't need to do that I in an ideal world you that you there's just one extra middle step that just doesn't need to be there yeah I'm I'm all for it and I think that you know is interesting you were saying about someone at the bar who was older

generation and they saw the Open Diamond that got them interested having something physical like something tangible for some people it's something that's going to get them involved and if that's what we need to get more people involved if they are of that older generation it's all well and good just

saying oh yeah you know fuck the boomers let them let them get on with it they've ruined everything blah blah blah but actually no most of them most them are struggling and if they could understand this stuff and like use it in a more simple way I think they would there's so many people who just if they could

just grasp how big this is and how useful this is and what it achieves by defunding a lot of the shit that's going on at the moment I think that just people be running for the exits it's just trying to get that message across yeah yeah I agree and I think this is on that specifically like I think Open

Diamonds and mobile wallets are like phone wallets are easier to use like bend hardware wallets like I don't I personally don't recommend hardware wallets unless they're inside a multi-sig like I would not use a hardware wallet as a single key just because I just don't I don't see how that's you

know helpful or useful so like I would I'm all about like Open Dimes and mobile phone wallets and I think I think like I would love to see boomers I'd love to see any generation like buying Open Dimes and just keeping them like lottery tickets like just keep a stack of them in your house like so many so

many people already you know gamble on so many other things you know like buy like buy this and keep it keep it in your safe it's the gold like just do it it's like and so I think seeing but seeing young people out in out in life you know like you know doing Bitcoin live is yeah it was just so funny like

watching it's all about relationships it's all about relationships and so just doing it out live and being willing to talk to people about it I think it is fun I'm still yet to use an Open Dime what's your thoughts with like you send some sets to one then I don't know you got it on your key ring and you've had

too many drinks at the bar and you drop your keys in the beer and then it ruins the device as far as I understand there's no way to back that up and I may be wrong but as far as I understand you would then just lose what is in there it's like cash you just that's gone is that correct yeah yeah and that's

you do see all amounts basically and just accept that like all right I'm not gonna put more than 50 dollars on here or a hundred dollars on here and like the worst case scenario that happens and they'd be annoying but it's not my whole stash yep yeah exactly exactly and I would go for even yeah I think those are

the exact right amounts to like it's enough it's enough to like matter and like think about it but it's not so much that yeah you're you're gonna be super crushed if something happens to it and then if you like and then if you run into people that like want to know about Bitcoin you know then you have

you have the opportunity to you know sell them the Bitcoin right there on the spot you know and then you buy another Open Dime and do it again like that's that's why I kind of enjoy you know having having one on me because it's just like it's just fun to give them away yeah because people like that like

they like the physical side of it because you're like okay you you're gonna buy Bitcoin and they see a number on a screen I know that's basically what our normal current system is but you know people do like that physical thing and they look cool as well like those Open Dime things look awesome like they

look proper like futuristic like different people just like oh wow what's that and it just makes it more exciting right right well and then yeah and it starts to think about like and then it becomes it becomes a fashion thing it becomes like like the way you wear gold or the way you wear diamonds like

there's and it's a political thing like there's no there's no blood on this money like you can take it in any direction you want hmm yeah that's true and you know you were saying earlier about the with every podcast and you are absolutely right every podcast we sort of tend to ask how people got

involved rather than so much about what they're doing and how they're using it but I have to say I found it interesting because I came across your website when I listened to you and Marty chatting on the tells on the Crip podcast and I was like wow this guy's come from you know you know political sort of background and

that's not something that I'm really used to hearing it's it it seems to be more people like very like anti-state and very certain type of person that's what I was like wow you know this this is someone who probably understands this system the current system much much better than I would and has rejected it

so without going too much into you don't have to go too much into it but like was there like a breaking point where you just went shit like this just doesn't work what happened yeah no I can tell you exactly what it was so like I've always been to politics I was the student body president in my high

school I was on student government in my college and after I left college I went to work for I went to work for a bank and I got hired away from from the bank to work for this supervisor campaign and so a supervisor county county supervisor sometimes they're called county commissioners in other

states it's just kind of like it's like right above city council at the county level I did that and I've worked on campaigns in Orange County for six years and I was I was really lucky and I got named the Southern California Field Director for the Trump campaign so actually so I actually worked for the

Donald Trump campaign I helped throw two rallies I was I was a part of the crew that threw his Costa Mesa rally and a part of his crew that threw the Anaheim rally so work on that and like it's and then that that night in November like shocks everybody crazy like he wins and then what happens in politics after

that is then everybody starts fighting for the positions like everyone wants to be a part of the administration and it's all about you know what job you can get and what title you can get right and so can people that are on the campaign are normally in good position to get a spot and so I thought my application and

I you know talked to you know everybody that I'm able to to get the get the favors and get the introductions that I can get in order to you know go to Washington DC and work with the administration and there was this video production job inside health and human services that I was like absolutely

qualified for and I absolutely had the you know campaign experience to do and I had shown that I was you know loyal to the campaign and I wanted to know you know make America great again and what I know happened I got through 70 80% of beyond boarding they like I did multiple interviews they like looked at all my

investments they just did all this vetting all this vetting and I my application gets the White House personnel office and my application gets denied based on my social media to work for the campaign or work for the administration and that's when I realized that's when I realized it so it was that

in combination with everything we've watched happen so far that like I have no doubt that like Trump wanted to go to Washington DC and shake up the system and like in a lot of ways you can argue you can argue both ways like oh he hasn't shook up anything or like oh he's done a great job shaking things up like

you honestly either either of those is fine like I kind of understand what I realized was that the bureaucrats are in power like the 30 40 year old bureaucrats that have just worked in Washington DC for 30 years and 40 years they're in power they can stop change makers from going to DC like I've looked I've I've a

beard like I have you know I am just unique like person or whatever and like they don't want me there sitting in those cubes with those bureaucrats like they denied the application of change makers to go to DC and shake up DC and and so in that sense that's when I realized that it doesn't matter it

doesn't matter who we elect it doesn't matter if we elect Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders like the people like the bureaucrats the thousands thousands of government employees they run the show so you can't you can't drain the swamp you can't train the swamp because the swamp fights back and the swamp keeps out

change makers so that like it's like that in combination with just like learning more about Bitcoin than I realized like but you can't you can't vote in the change that you want to see it won't work like like when we say the establishment protects its own and the institutions protect its own like that's

become just such a buzzword talking point but that's absolutely true mmm like I hope everyone understands what I mean like when I say bureaucrats like like the government employees like not they aren't they aren't bad in and of themselves you know each human is just they're trying to do what they think is

right for the country but when you get thousands of them thousands of them all stacked up and little political you know sink like ranks and they all like feed off each other and do that whole thing they don't let new people in they don't let new ideas in and so they just keep writing and writing and writing more

rules and more rules and more rules and more rules and the country never gets any better yeah it's just more and more it's just more and more regulation it's the same here but the more regulation they may the more of a job security they have because there's more to do but it doesn't ever seem to make anything better

it just either stops innovation and competition and the big boys the big companies just and the banks they just want the regulation because they can afford to deal with it and anyone who's smaller can't and it makes it more difficult for just the everyday person like there's so many stupid rules I mean

I worked within our healthcare system seven eight years it was an absolute nightmare because every single you know every single meeting we would have it be like oh we've got this great idea we want you to fill in this extra form to tell us how many different mop heads and mop buckets you have and are they

color coded and then can you put logs of every time that the mop is taken in and taken out of the cupboard and then can you put that into a spreadsheet and set and you're like we can't even look after patients anymore because all we're doing is useless paperwork that doesn't help anybody and it's just I think you're

right it's like that a whole way through the system yeah just bullshit yeah no it's frustrating and that's why and it's like okay so then what happens like people on the other side who are pro regulations will say well we need it you know keep people safe you know you just want to you know define all the

stuff and like and the reason and the reason is because speaking United States specifically the Republicans and Democrats are on the same team like the Republicans repeal stuff that they say is gonna help everybody but then it just it doesn't end up helping everybody and like and I'm sorry to like say that and

have to like jump on that wagon of the people that say that but that's true like like both both parties have gotten so many swings at just like fully changing things up and no one has ever fully changed anything up like the only thing the only thing they can all agree on is to spend more money print more

money that's it you go and look at the votes like look at the actual votes like they don't they don't agree on anything except print more money spend more life that is crazy because then the richest counties in the United States are all suburbs of Washington DC they stole money from the rest of the country they

are stealing money from the heartland because the money they print more money passed to the France print more money passed through the friends charge more taxes you know to the to the to the rest of the states and so it dude you're right the whole the whole thing is so frustrating and the whole thing is such

at just a loggerheads because each party will just say you know vote for me and we'll fix it vote for me and we'll fix it vote for me and we'll fix it and I'm like that doesn't that doesn't work like everyone's been lied to on that so many times and never seen any change that that is not a thing anymore Bitcoin is a

thing Bitcoin is a thing that actively every day is growing and eating up mind share people and giving people freedom in their own lives and in the same way in the same way that like uber uber just launched they just launched they didn't care about the tax unions they didn't care about the rules they didn't care

about anything they just launched and they're like we're gonna put this app and everybody's hands and we're gonna give everybody a way to get rides everywhere always and then you watch it like grow and grow organically like that's how that's how Bitcoin is Bitcoin doesn't it were like we're gonna write the rules

now like I got like I love the way that like Max Kizer like I just there's this classic clip where he's like talking and talking you know how excited he gets he like I love my car so flips the chair over it he says we make the rules now like Bitcoiners make the rules now that's exactly it like I I'm done like I'm

on strike from the legacy system like I only my company my time my labor like is only available for cash in Bitcoin that's it like I'm done and more of us that do that we will grow like this other economy can they stop individuals and will some people get stopped will some people get bogged down will some people

get bad ends of the deals yeah they will because there's no guarantees there's no guarantees that like this whole thing is gonna work out super smiley and we're gonna take over the federal bank and like all this stuff no there's no guarantees but I refuse to live in a system I refuse to live in the system

like I don't want to work and be stolen from anymore yeah it's actually immoral to continue when you know what you know I think to say I'm gonna continue to work in this system and allow it to continue when you know we have to pass this world on to a future generation and like it's getting worse

and worse and when we know we have an option to potentially make it better it may not work but it can potentially and I think it will make it better to ignore that is really wrong I agree with that it would be crazy I agree with that and like and I agree with that so much that like the other thing I've been trying to

think about is like Bitcoin has to work for families it has to work for families and it has to work for couples and it has to work for everyone it can't it can't just have work for some people Bitcoin cannot just be a thing for unbanked to nomads it has to be a thing for like real families in real like first

world countries like it has to be because that's the way you create freedom like that's why you create freedom for everybody and that's the way you create this opt-out economy like it can't I because too many people too many couples are stuck in this paradigm of where one person is into Bitcoin one person isn't

and it's this constant argument about how much you put in and how much you keep up like and that's what's making like a stock that's what's making it feel like it's this 401k that like the money only goes in one way and then you never feel any benefit from it because like that that whole thing is just such a joke

anyways too like you like they force you to lock up your money until you're 65 and that's how you get the tax benefits like that whole thing is a joke too like those laws are built to keep you trapped like there's no way so there's no way to build tax protected wealth in this country that you can access you know

like in your younger years it's impossible you're not a one happy easy scheme huh huh it's literally a punsy scheme yes no it if it physically literally is and social security like social security will not pay out the generations that are paying into it right now they come close no that is not

working in too many people again I'm kind of like right on the line like if if this is how you use Bitcoin this isn't bad it's not bad and then of itself I just want you to dream bigger just dream bigger because like you can you can get more freedom for your family right now like you don't and and the world is just

getting more and more complex more and more complex and so say Bitcoin does take off to some crazy six-figure price like then you're going to try to talk to your partner about it like how much more complicated is that conversation going to be then then talking about it right now you have to have the conversation

today you have to incorporate into your family financial planning today Bitcoin is not happening in the future Bitcoin is happening right now like you're you know and so bad like it can't like if the partners are on the same page it's going to drive apart more families than it drives together and I I want Bitcoin

to drive families together I want Bitcoin to create freedom so that people don't have to work such long hours getting ripped off so they can have more time with their family like authentically like not not in this dumb Western world you know work life balance stuff that we talked about no for real like not

having that mental weight of your like job on your head all the time so that you can physically and mentally be president for your family that is what Bitcoin can do and we have to get it there it has to get to that point yeah because we only get one life we can spend so much time at work and worrying about

work and worrying about money so that we can support our families that we actually neglect them that isn't I think like you're saying that isn't how it should be we should be able to spend time with our families we should be able to not just send kids off to school and not spend any time with them and not

spend any time with your partners and it just it that doesn't feel right and like you say Bitcoin can allow families to be closer but yeah I think you're right it can it can drive people apart because I think you said your wife's also now into Bitcoin as well you know did you find it difficult at the start or you both got

involved at the same time how did that how did that work yeah I mean so I bought in early 2015 and like she bought towards the end of 2015 we've both been you know slowly doing it off and on together and spend I listened to the majority of all the podcasts like I do I do all the podcasting and learning and

you know meetups and things and but but she's been a really awesome sport going to the meetups with me which has been like really cool and like it's opened up good conversations for us to have and I think like really it comes it comes back to kind of full circle where we started at the beginning of you know as soon as

I started treating Bitcoin more like money instead of a stock it started being something that we could do together better and so in the same way that we talk about you know what should we do with our checking account you know and what part of the house should you know we do next and you know what should

we spend money on net like that's when I started trying to figure out like okay is you know is there a way that I can do these same things on Bitcoin the same way we would have been doing on our credit cards and our checking account and that's been that's been the thing that has forced me to try to find these

sites and you know find like figure out how to use samurai wallet and figure out how to you know do different things was was how how can I have my savings account and my checking account on Bitcoin too so that if I do end up earning any Bitcoin I can you know we can use that for our house yeah and the

idea of earning it rather than you know you said earlier oh sometimes one of the people in the relationship will be like oh all you're doing is just buying Bitcoin and then you're telling me you've got a hodl for at least 10 years and they do just see it as it is a one-way thing it's just taking money off the

table that would be spent somewhere else to go into just a savings account that would never be spent and I think that's maybe quite difficult for people to wrap their head around whereas if it was like okay as a couple together we're gonna find a way of earning a certain amount of Bitcoin every month like what can we do

as a side hustle or you know how can we how can we think about this in a different way that actually could bring people together rather than sort of drive this divide between people which I could definitely see happening I mean I'm lucky enough that my partner she's on the same page again not like a loser

like me that spends my entire life learning about this stuff and listening to podcasts and reading articles but she gets it she thinks it's great but I think for some people if if one person's really into it and really cares and the other just has no time for it it will cause arguments I'm sure that happens

quite a lot and that would be a real shame totally and because I think I think it's like a lot of populist movements like the Trump campaign you know pulled families apart like I would assume you know Brexit like pulled families apart you know the there's the protesting you know in Iran like

polls families apart the the yellow vests in France like polls families apart like because you have you have some people that like are everyone is fed up at a different level like everyone has a different fed up line and so that's constantly what we're arguing about is like why isn't your fed up line you know

where my fed up line is yeah that's an interesting way to say I've never heard it like that my fed up line yeah no I mean like and a lot of people you know buying Bitcoin is the release valve for that you know for being fed up and then for other people you know still in the legacy system you know going out and

going to protest and you know everything is you know where where their line is and then other people you know they try to try to say rational and try to say you know like you know maybe we can just vote you know this person will help us this time all of that is a different expression of the same thing none none

of that is bad like voting is not bad protesting is not bad buying Bitcoin is not bad all those things are positive like do more of all those things more voting more protesting more Bitcoin like less you know like less banks less regulations less like the elites like controlling everything meet meet people

where you're at meet meet your family you know where they're at and find find where their line is so that you so that you can use their language and protest with them in their language because that's how the elites are winning like the elites are winning because we're divided and I know that's such a cheesy

thing like I know everyone has heard that like oh we have to stop being divided like we're letting them win like I'm not not even so not even like a kumbaya like thinking that oh all of Twitter is gonna like agree on things no like back to like back to your house you know how so we're talking about okay what

percentage of your savings is in fiat what percentage of your savings is in Bitcoin what percentage of your spending is in fiat what percentage of your spending is in Bitcoin in the then inside your house you know like don't stop arguing like don't argue about what's happening outside your house like what

percentage of the time what percentage of the time are you in your partner and talking about something that's happening inside your house or something that's happening outside of your house stop talking about things that are happening outside your house yeah it's so true things you can't control again I'm really

lucky because we don't do that in this house it's just it's just not something that happens but the rest of my family and the friends and people always arguing about like you're saying they're arguing about politics that they have no control over they're arguing about protests that they have no control over

they're arguing about all sorts of little petty things that takes up all their attention and all their time and causes divides and it's pointless because it doesn't change anything it frustrates me so much I've seen in the last six months very close friends of family really fall out over this kind of stuff

like like you're saying over Brexit and this kind of thing and it's like one has an extreme view of that it's good and one has an extreme view that it's bad but it doesn't matter it doesn't change anything it's not gonna actually affect their lives but they think it does and you know that was exciting about Bitcoin

it's like well every time you're buying satts and every time that you're not using the legacy system you are actually doing something you are actually taking your abilities or your skills or your work away from the old system and you are putting it into a new system that everyone knows the rules to right and so

and so and if Bitcoin and so if Bitcoin's working and Bitcoin's working in people's lives and people are working and the system's working they're using it then we should start being able to see the Bitcoiners are actually more level-headed and more free-spirited and more like their their day-to-day is

light like their their burden is light their yoke is light and their families their family should work better like when the when the shock of number go up wears off like the the reality of wow their family really loves each other is like gonna set it because it just reset everything it reset the

relationships with like the people they work for reset the relationships with each other reset the relationship with you know politicians it reset their relationships with everybody outside their house and so they're when Bitcoin's working like you know your house should be a better better machine than other

houses yeah that makes a lot of sense so are there any other tips that you would share with listeners anything else that you've learned sort of like you say in the last 90 days really getting you your hands dirty with this stuff is there anything that you would say you know if you say say to someone who right now

either doesn't own any Bitcoin or owns it but only hodles it that's all they do and all of they've ever thought of doing what would be your top thing to say right try this yeah so I would say so if you own a little bit coin but you've only thought about it's hobbling I would write I would just take out a sheet of

paper and I would just ask yourself you know these questions like what are my goals what are my goals and I would and then I would say you know what percentage of your savings is in your national currency what percentage of your savings is in Bitcoin and just write both of those numbers and say you know you know

what amount do you spend on average per month in your you know national currency like and then look for things like and dial that up by you know groceries gas cell phone bill any of those things and then for those Bitcoin savings where do you hold it like with think about the apps that use and think about why use

those apps and like so me like my stack is like so I use CASA multi-sake for my savings and I use samurai wallet for my like earning and spending like and so that's what I simplified it down to like I think those are the two apps that work the best for me like I don't I don't want to mess with hardware wallets just

on themselves and so I would like that's what I do but like whatever stat whatever stack of like apps you use that like that's awesome and so but if you feel stuck sometimes switching up the apps use is something that you can't do but don't but don't switch up anything just because I'm saying like you if you

like what you're doing keep doing what you're doing then I would encourage you to if you haven't tried samurai wallet I would I would get a dedicated Android phone don't don't even get service on it just get a dedicated Android phone only use it on Wi-Fi and just get samurai wallet to try it like try the

mobile mixing and then and if you don't if you don't have a local meet up that you go to I would try to find a local meet up try to find other Bitcoiners that you can talk about this live with not over Twitter like live meet other Bitcoin live in real life and then buy you know buy 20 bucks buy 50 bucks buy

a hundred bucks on your samurai wallet from another live person like and if you don't have that then try this but bit this is tough like this is a paradigm shift and so if you have a dedicated machine at your house try you know try downloading this and keep your offer online like make an offer and just keep

it online and just treat it treat it like eBay or treat it like Craigslist or treat it like anything like just put up your like how much you want to buy what price you would pay just keep it online because that's how you make the market that's how you make the market so try that and yeah it's not it's not that

difficult it's a little bit intimidating when you first sort of download it and it looks a little bit it doesn't look that user friendly but once you've used it once or twice is actually really not that hard at all yep that's awesome right and I and I think I think I think where people do get in like do that's

why I encourage like don't don't change up what you're already doing like you already have your storage mechanism and your exchange options that you like like don't even think about it as like oh I'm replacing this or oh I'm how I'm doing this all over or whatever like just think about it as a separate

segment like a completely separate like that's what has helped me like get into experimenting better and so when you think about it like that and think about like what came you do peer to peer like where you live then like that starts to help you know change it up a little bit and then and then I would say like don't

just go online and buy a random hat or a rain of stickers like then go back your sheet where you wrote down you know how much you spend per month on different things and try to figure out like is there a way where I can like physically buy you know one meal this week you know with this like cash stack that I would

have just spent cash at this merchant anyways like like try and that's where it's like so so you're not doing anything different than you already were like find a place where you already you know eat dinner or get food from that you already would have paid cash for and find a way to just do it on Bitcoin and

I think just through those exercises like you'll open up like a lot of the same things that like I've experienced and you'll be at a cool like then from there you'll be able to think about any number of different things you learn as well right because you're actually using this stuff and it's just sharpening

your skills it's yeah I think you know like you say even if it's slightly less efficient you cost you slightly more well you're learning so that that's that is worth something learning is worth something because that yeah and because I know this sounds drastic but like you don't want to be caught in a situation

where your bank does get turned off and this is the first time you've ever been spending or like sending Bitcoin like so even think about it that from a security perspective like you're almost you're you're completing the whole loop like if you're sitting on a stack that like you feel you feel uncomfortable

every time you you know touch it or move it like that's not that's not good for security perspective either like you you don't have peace of mind like you you want to have mind like you don't want to be nervous because that the world is getting more and more crazy and so you like you have to be you want to be

comfortable in this new paradigm so like we're gonna look back and this is gonna be a relatively calm period compared to like where the world is going and you so that's why you want to you want to practice you know Bitcoin now not in the future when you're you know forced to do it in a

censorship resistant way yeah hundred percent it was interesting you were saying as well about these these meetups it's one thing here that I'm sure there are some I mean I go to the bit devs meetups before the lockdowns and all that kind of stuff and just just listen in and the people there are great

to chat to there's a few of us now who are sort of on telegram groups it British Bitcoin is who are trying to like work out a time where we can all get together but I think that is the absolute ideal because I'm assume you learn a lot there and you get to meet some sort of like-minded people and you

can trade if someone does want to buy or sell what's the experience being like for you going to these meetups dude it's it's everything like I've been going to the Orange County Bitcoin network for like one year now and we started with seven people and we've had hundreds like come so far and so we've been able to

have like cool speakers and stuff like that but no no it's every it's everything like and and that's another reason why I've gotten more passionate about like circular economy is because like you're right going to the devs ones is so cool and so interesting like lesson to them talk and like that that's all like

awesome but something that like non tech people can sit around and talk about like is the circular economy like you can talk about that with people like as a sign as a form of protest like how do we build the circular economy in our town like literally write down like where can I get food shelter lodging in a hair

cut like in my town and figure it out figure it out like that becomes that becomes the hobby like the hobby the hobby is no longer the hobby is no longer you know let me buy this thing like a stock and like a scratch ticket like it's now how do we build this other economy because you know all the XYZ like

political and like sovereign like reasons that becomes the new thing and that gets you out in the community talking to real people yeah that's very cool and have you found that there are people there who I assume you sort of have people from all different backgrounds you might have like you say

like a barber or somebody has a restaurant or somebody's a plumber and have you found that there are people who are willing to trade their time for Bitcoin within that community and that people are actually doing it yeah I have and it's not a lot it's not a lot I can't sit here and just like give like all

these like giant members are like say it's like this like giant thing that's like absolutely happening but it's closer it's more available than I thought it was it's more available than I thought it was and what's funny is that the two like I've paid the yeah my buddy who like paired my house and I like I'm

getting food delivered you know tonight from like a local like chef here and what's funny is that both those guys are relatively new to Bitcoin it was easier for those guys to understand like oh yeah let me take a risk I'm like accepting this other currency like then it then it was for like getting getting

some long time meet-up or is to like start to kind of like understand what what we were trying to do and so that in that sense it's funny so the new people we don't have to take new people through this crazy long onboarding thing just get the money just get them the money just get them the money and then

just answer the questions like we don't have to let like everyone already knows what money is and everybody already knows that the systems messed up what else do you need to know like like I've listened to a thousand hours of Bitcoin podcast about how the money is messed up in the systems messed up yeah yeah

like we know it's I don't know if my buddy doesn't need that for a thousand hours they know they already know and so just tell them tell them the big one's different and like here let me like let me legitimately buy something that I need from you because I need food once they've got that money in their hand as

well they're more likely to ask questions and look into things you know I found that as soon as I bought Bitcoin I was like right I own this thing now I'd better start to understand it and it takes you down the rabbit hole as soon as you've got so many hand it even if it's like you're saying your your friend

who's got 50 pound of you know 50 dollars worth of Bitcoin for coming and doing some work on your house he's probably more likely to ask you questions and look into things than he would be if you were just talking to them and he had none totally absolutely and like now that we're talking about

it's no longer theory like we're not talking about theory of like oh what if Bitcoin does this in the future no Bitcoin is doing this right now like I just paid you in a currency that governments can't control right now that's powerful and so it's not because that's that's the thing is like I'm done and

people argue like oh Bitcoin doesn't need marketing like whatever like that's fine that's fine if you're right it doesn't need you to argue with other people that are cynics on the internet you're right like arguing cynics doesn't get you anywhere however it doesn't mean that every person that hasn't thought

about it is anti your thing like more there are more people in the world that want to get Bitcoin then don't want to get Bitcoin there are more open-minded regular people walking around every single day then there are absolute cynics that will tell you to you know that it's stupid they like I completely believe

that but so when you talk to them though it like just talk to them like a normal person and sit like find out what motivates them and because like Bitcoin fixes this we I can match you can put me in a room with any single person and I'll match the Bitcoin incentive that fits what they need in their life and so

it's amazing that isn't it that is a that is a weird you know obviously comes down to just like corrupted money corrupts everything and therefore it's gonna fuck someone over in some way but it is crazy how true that Bitcoin fixes this is and how you can feel like you say you know there's never a time

where you're like can't match it to what someone actually needs and that is crazy yeah it is crazy it's absolutely crazy like in in that sense we almost like reduced it to a meme too fast because when we reduce it to the meme we pull out just how this is a crazy new paradigm the world is different like

the legacy system is doesn't run the game anymore like there's a new game in town and the new game is more fair and it's for everybody and so I don't I don't think Bitcoin is not just for unbanked nomads Bitcoin is not just for random dudes that listen to pockets like Bitcoin is for everyone and as soon as I

started just walking outside my house and like thinking about it a little bit just twisting it a little bit differently and then so from a time perspective from a time perspective think about how many hours you spend listening to Bitcoin podcast and listen to people talk about theory and think

about how much time you use actually you know like sending a transaction or receiving a transaction or you know looking online for places to you know build the circular economy in your own life or or like you said a side hustle like side hustles for Bitcoin absolutely is something that will like turn turn

the light on and make make it different like make a market make a market in your town whether that means just having Bisk open on your computer with the thing open awesome whether that means learning the way BTC pay server works and like like putting something for sale on your website awesome whether that means you

know learning for the first time how to tip out someone else's BTC pay tip jar do it like the the thousand stats is worth it it's worth it like and so build a market like build a market in your town it's it's a it's a nice I think you're again like you can spend I've almost got to that point now where you know I

have spent the same just like thousands and thousands and thousands of hours learning about it and it has got to the point now where I'm enjoying more getting my hands dirty like literally while I was running late for today was putting graphene OS on this phone you know that's taken me honestly I've been messing

around with that for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and pissing about and trying to get Linux on old laptop and then I had problems with that and now I've managed it on the Mac but now I've done it and I'm like yes I've actually achieved something here and then you know the next step is BTC pay server and

you have these little projects and it is more rewarding than learning and going deeper about a subject that I already know a fair amount about because it does kind of come to a point where you're like all right I get this like this is awesome it is better money the money we do have is terrible the system we have

is terrible and and it's kind of it's exciting to to go down that rabbit hole but it does come a point where it's like maybe time can be spent better you actually using this technology and playing with it and it is rewarding exactly and and look what's so cool like if you become the guy if you become the

guy in your town that gets the point where you can run BTC pay server then you can become the merchant processor for any other merchant that you on board then and then anyone else can meet up like like we do this like so Stephen from like Orange County like started the meetup he's like he's way better at BTC pay

server and running nodes and running servers and all that stuff and I am okay so he's that guy like for our county but now as I'm out networking and talking to bar owners and talking to people like about Bitcoin now we have a turnkey solution we were ready we're ready we have a turnkey solution for if if and

when the bar decides hey like why are you guys are already paying out each other peer-to-peer in Bitcoin to start paying the bar then for the beer like that's a great day like that's a great day and that day welcome because that day is now within our reach and we have the resources to like implement that now now

in the county now and we don't have to like we don't have to wait for that in the future anymore so now it all just becomes you know traditional business development game and traditional you know spread the message game yeah that's really cool I might have to reach out to this guy if he understands it so well

because I just it takes me such a long time getting to grips with these things I always get there eventually but it I definitely want BTC pay to get my hands dirty and to get that on my website so I don't know maybe it's a case I'm thinking I'd like to do maybe a couple of videos and things I'm gonna do one with this

graphene thing now because it was Matt Odell did a really he did a brilliant video but it was for it was for Linux and then a few people have jumped in on Twitter and given me some advice on how to do it with a Mac but like I'm I'm not tacky I'm an idiot compared to these people who just like they live

breathe this stuff and it's taken me honestly like five six weeks to finally fix it and I was I sat up all night and last night and all day today just so frustrated so I'm like no I think I should now make a video for other idiots like me so that they can just sit and go right I'll do this in an hour rather

than like a hundred dude you have to you have to the world the world is demanding it like the future is demanding it like not to get too serious but it is like it is those hundred hours are not lost like those hundred hours that you climbed over are not lost like if you think about collectively how

many hours like Matt's guide has like saved other people and then how many hours I will save other people like we're pulling we're pulling the future and we're pulling freedom like towards us and in what I did like I wrote like I wrote a little thing up just about how look if you don't know how to flash a

new phone and like Matt's video and you know Max's video is too much then learn how to just not sign into the Google Play Store and just download the APK straight from the website like even that even that is pulling back the freedom in the direction that we needed to go to having a dedicated phone not signed

into Google that you just run the APK on which is just the android file like that's already awesome also and then you get going yeah so for anyone who who hasn't already gone on your website Brian Harrington.org it's got some really great content on there you know I'm impressed with how much you've got on

it's sort of looking through it this morning I was like oh you know I need to pull my finger out because it is like you're saying it's really helping people actually use this stuff and your videos are awesome so I'm gonna try and take a leaf out of your book and then do the same and really try and push this thing

forward I love it I love it like I say I'm firstly so sorry that I wasted your time the first time and I know you said it wasn't a waste and I actually do agree I think this has been a better interview the second time but I apologize anyway and I'd like to say for anyone hasn't gone on the website do it now it's it's

really really good and thank you for changing my perspective on things because I am starting to really see that we can push things forward quicker and as good as it is chatting about monetary policy and all this kind of stuff it's almost getting to that point where it's a little bit like politics you know we can talk

it and talk it and talk it but until we do it it doesn't change so yeah it's great that you're thinking like this totally dude yeah I really appreciate the opportunity it's been fun you know hanging out and talking at the end I'm glad that we're connected awesome and yeah when I start messing around with this

video when when I get going with it I'll I'll send you a copy and if you ever want to do something in the future collaborate on something give me a shout because it seems like it seems like the best way to one board new people do it and anybody anybody listening as you do go out and do circular economy stuff

like in your life like tweet me and tell me like I'm it's it's brain brain like in your head Harrington across Twitter and Instagram yeah tag me and yeah I appreciate if you go to brianherington.org and watch the videos that I've got up on YouTube yeah hopefully it sparks some different thoughts in your life but

yeah build build the economy build the economy grow the Bitcoin economy perfect all right Brian well thanks thanks again and yeah everyone go check out the website and I'm sure we'll speak again soon for sure great chatting with you Cheers