EP33 Bitcoin podcast with Scott Sibley.

Welcome back everyone. Today I speak with Scott Sibley. We talk about Journey's map, Bitcoin, play chamoury and we even talk about diving. I really enjoyed talking to Scott and I hope you enjoy listening. Before we dive in I just want to say thank you again to coin floor for sponsoring the show and for

anyone in the UK looking for an exchange that does things the right way please check them out. I've done a recent interview with Obi the CEO and he is a proper Bitcoiner who's down for the cause. Anyway let's jump in. Enjoy. Hi Scott welcome to bit by bit. It's lovely to have you on. Before we dive in Scott Sibley

can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you are doing about your card game that I've been looking into and your Bitcoin journey please. Perfect. Well first thanks for having me Max and connecting up and happy to kind of share that story and then see where it takes us but I first kind of

dove into the Bitcoin rabbit hole like like of a lot of other people in that 2017-2018 bubble up and then I guess the way I think of it is as opposed to maybe a lot of other people who maybe got wrecked if you will financially dabbling and altcoins and when that kind of pushed away it kind of did the

opposite to me it kind of said okay what where is the hook here and that's where I started diving deeper into Bitcoin and why that truly is the the better option as opposed to the thousands of other coins that are out there and went down that rabbit hole more and more and more over these past few years and there's

probably you know 12 hours so months ago maybe a little over a year where I said okay I want to try to engage even more and in a way give back and help people learn along the way and that's where the concept in my head came from okay I can try to create a game out of this and then I'm sure we'll go into more

details as we talk but essentially came up with the idea for a game it's called Shamari it's all kind of built around some of the basics around proof of work mining SHA-256 and just the idea being they don't boil it down as simple as possible so that whether you're a six seven eight year old or a 20 30 40 50

year old if you've never heard of it from before you can play the game and that's that's the first step is awareness that kind of three steps in my mind awareness education adoption and really the game is around awareness and education and then kind of help that rabbit hole from there very cool and so

Shamari is that from SHA-256 is that with the exactly so I kind of mashed up SHA-256 and then Maury comes from one of the main concepts of the games is really if you remember playing the game of memory as a kid we're kind of flipping over two cards that's the other aspect of the game where the the gaming concept

comes from so I kind of played off those two things and said Shamari excellent all right so it looks like you already had some sort of connection with education anyway so I've seen on your Twitter you've got journeys map and can you tell us a little bit about that and I'm guessing this has sort of led you into making the

card game anyway because it sounds like it is you're pushing towards something that's fun but educational as well exactly now you're at the down on the head so my background actually my my story goes back a little bit more than that so I actually graduated here in the States with a degree in accounting

which wound me up into the education ed tech space here in San Diego and really the combination of those two things really both play into the game where I think my background on the accounting side of things I was in audit so a lot of my job back in you know 10 12 I guess almost 15 years ago now was going into

companies and looking at their financials and verifying that what they're saying is true which that all comes back around to to Bitcoin when I truly think about it so I think that's probably where it started and that would have been in you know 2005 6 7 8 before Satoshi even jumped in the scene and before I had any

idea obviously and then from there I've been working at a local startup it's called journeys map like you mentioned we've essentially created that is my full time job created the first what we call learning map so instead of using say Google Maps or Apple Maps for max to drive from your house to the local

local restaurant and figure out the directions there it's literally a map of your learning continuum so if you're in grade school if you're in higher ed if you're looking for a certification being able to use literally a map to be able to say I'm here today I want to get there and then kind of plot those points

resources along the way and while we're not doing it yet today a lot of the way we think about what we're building out platform wise is blockchain and verifiable credential of as far as individuals having control of that will ultimately play into the map or building where here in the States you know you go

to say for your university you get your degree and if you want to verify that you got your degree you have to go back to the registrar and pay 40 bucks to have them send you a transcript when really you the learner should have control of that so we envision the way a day when you have control over those learning

records as part of your blockchain on journeys map as well similar to the concepts that to help power Bitcoin so like you said it all plays into what I'm doing here at Shombry interesting so it's kind of from what you've explained there it's like a visualization for people of like okay I want to do this how do I

get there yep that's it what would it do it it talks them through the education and qualifications they might need for I don't know they want to be an accountant for example just said it it will talk them through that and give them the different options yep so it's time to hit the nail on the head so you

know I'm here today I want to get to be that accountant and maybe I have you know I don't have any degrees I don't have any certifications I'm kind of figure out my next step and we know those two points and once we know the starting point and the ending point we start recommending okay you know here's these sets of four

year degrees out there here are these stackable credentials here are these certifications here's a bootcamp you might want to look into we think of all those as kind of resources that are mini journeys along the way so there's kind of that long journey where I want to get to become an accountant but every step

along the way is that a journey as well that kind of has its own ups and downs and curves to it just like just like driving yeah okay and so there must have been I assume a reason that you you know you've obviously spent all that time you qualified as a accountant and then most accountants that I meet who stopped say

that they were bored I don't know if that was the same for you what made you change to education yeah board is probably one way I would say also just and I kind of knew this going in it was never going to be my lifelong passion but I also when I went into you know get my degree here in the States I know I

wanted to go into something business-wise and the fact that getting getting that accounting degree getting your CPA license is it is whether it's good or bad a nice credential to have to be able to kind of your walking papers to get your foot your foot in the door places so that's you know I said okay you know

I'm gonna I'm gonna do this I'm gonna jump through the hoops and not the degree not just the degree but getting my CPA license and go through that and it was truly a learning experience I wouldn't change a thing it's funny maybe you've had this conversation with other people that you've talked to around this but

particularly on the the audit side of things people say oh you know you must be great at math or you know whatever and just really like well no while accounting is math it's really just adding subtracting multiplying and division it's not anything crazy and when you're doing audit it truly is

verification and it's not just you verifying it but it's documenting to let okay Scott is verifying it but now Max is gonna have to come behind me and do the exact same thing and he's gonna have to read what I'm writing to be able to have Max do steps 1 through 10 the exact same way I did and so really my the

skill of writing probably increased the most during those three or so years that I did it and just the the concept of being able to have those records in place which once again leads back to to Bitcoin absolutely so I mean just talk me through how does that work you would be going through the accounting and

then how many other people would have to do the same process it'd like to it's like double and triple checking I assume and making sure that they can't have any errors yeah you so you'd literally go in you do the process and then someone else will be doing the exact same process and being paid to do that and how many

times does that happen for the most part yeah so depending on where your level so when you come in your your staff account and so the lowest on the totem pole you're going in there and typically on the types of jobs I was on there'd be between two and four people above me if you will that would do different layers

of checking so for example the the person right above the staff being usually the the senior accountant would come in and he he or she would do the majority of your steps over at least in some level to kind of verify what you're doing anything and then above that the person would do a little less and then

the final person would do a little left and then as you get higher those people are also looking for a wider range of problems or more regulatory type issues and different language and reporting that needs to be included so less saying step A step B and step C were done they're now relying on the two or three

people below them and they're coming in to say okay based on those steps we need to report this thing in our notes to the to the board or whatever it may be so it's layered independent the side of the job too and how do you see that industry changing now that you know about Bitcoin and and you know we talk

about triple entry accounting and and how this can change things yeah coming from someone who you know I talk about this stuff but I have no fucking idea what I'm talking about because I'm not an accountant do you see it changing all of it do you see that just wiping out an industry in some way yeah I actually

see it changing not just because of say things like Bitcoin that can help potentially change some of those accounting practices based on the ledger that's out there but even more so for where we're sitting today based on everything that's happening in the world not just related to we're obviously

sitting here still in the middle of covid depending on when this airs but also just the fact that the skills that individuals need are changing rapidly and so many of the tasks that say your typical accountant at say a small independent company is doing they're gonna be it's gonna be automated there's

not gonna be a need for that person to be sitting there and tracking accounts receivable or cash balances and all that stuff there's gonna be automation in place that's gonna make that person's job what it is today and just rapidly change and probably disappear over the next you know three to five years through

AI and machine learning and all that stuff and I see a lot of that in my work at journeys map so we do a lot of industry specific work around that sort of thing cyber security and the pathways opening up there and just people I don't think they I think they underestimate the amount of change that's gonna happen

for fields that historically you would think of as safe jobs an accountant even lawyers all these things that we can just a computer is gonna be able to do it better and faster and it doesn't mean your skills completely gone it's just gonna be your job you're gonna need to train yourself to do something else it

is crazy to think like like you said these are the jaw these were the jobs that were just so secure and and they have been for decades and decades and decades or you know hundreds of years and then now and around the world it's not even just a U.S. thing or in the UK where you are but any you know there's

accountants everywhere used to be you know you used to be so you get your become an accountant you can work wherever you want sure that's gonna be the case still but it's gonna be it's gonna be a lot different as we move forward yeah so I suppose it's gonna be more you're gonna have to have the

ability to write code and build programs that are gonna automate things and then maybe that's where these people can use their skills because there has to be a person by the code exactly you know or a person who's analyzing it's probably more on the analytization critical thinking doing that those sorts of

activities I don't think we'll ever truly disappear because you need to be able to have a human touch there but kind of more of those mechanisms of recording entries verifying entries that sort of thing there's no reason for for having somebody sitting behind a computer desk eight hours a day or 12

hours a day whatever it is so it's crazy when you think about that is all these things that in order not just Bitcoin all these technologies touch and and change and the pace at which is happening I think people seriously underestimate the change that we're gonna see and how just how quick it's

gonna be because once this it's like one of those things the idea of this hyper bit colonization and people sort of scoff at it but actually logically it's the only thing that I can see playing out because it's just a better system so we're crazy times - yeah it'll we'll be there for for the right I guess when

you're coming from that background was there something that really grabbed your attention with Bitcoin and made you sort of sit up and take notice always it like everybody else was it just literally the run-up and you're looking at looking at the price and you're going wow and then it drags you in from

the I was it was that latter as far as the beginning of it was what you know what the hell is this what's going on I actually remember hearing about Bitcoin probably the first time off the top I I want to say it's probably you know 2013 2014 I remember I was at my mom's house and she had the news on and they

were talking about having I think the first Bitcoin ATMs placed in San Diego here and I remember for whatever reason that always stuck in the back of my head I didn't do anything about it I wish I did obviously yeah but that's the first time I remember kind of hearing about it so then when it came back

around that second time I guess that's what that was enough to let it stick and then like you said sure the price grabbed you in but then once you read the white paper and once you you know keep diving deeper down Bitcoin Twitter and obviously the vast amounts of podcasts that are out there and whatnot I don't

know it's just something that I I truly find interesting I don't think of as a job per se and just something I like learning more and more about and I also from my my personality I also like knowing that people like me or people like you we're all up to be even now we're at the beginning where the the early

adopters and for lack of better words now we're just sitting here you know to people on a podcast but five years from now we're gonna know so much more than the people who are coming and then and kind of having that feeling of being able to say you know I am in it in a way some sort of expert in the field to be

able to help others that are coming in and that's that's where the game concept came from so I like I like that teaching education side besides working at the company attorneys map I come from a line of educators and my mom was a was she retired a few years ago a 35 plus year teacher aunts uncle so it's in my

blood not that I've done it but it seems like it's a very rewarding job if it's done right and I think I mean certainly I've educated a few people or you know friends and family on Bitcoin and when they do get it when you see that sort of spark where they're like oh wow and they start to actually get interested it is

really rewarding yeah so that was the idea with the game and what are you teaching with the game it's you're based around mining it sounds like yeah yeah so tell me a little bit explain so the basic concept like you said is based around mining full disclosure I've never mined but I just kind of learned

enough about it in no way to be an expert but after I started learning more about mining and you know shot 256 and the way it kind of works my brain always likes going back to okay and as simple as it takes how does this work and after I thought more and more about it I said you know it for lack of better words and

lack of better things it really comes down to two things matching you know there's a target there's a not you want to make sure those things are working together and once that's done the block's been mined so like I mentioned at the beginning that's where the kind of the game of memory came into my head I was

like okay well we've all played memory as a kid which is flipping over one card to match the other card that why can't one of those cards be a target in one of those cards be a nonce and so once I once my brain wrapped that around in my head and said that that can be as simple as it gets I'm not trying to to dive

into the mid-degree details around all those things are argue about you know A6 versus whatever that that's not my expertise that's not what I want to go down I'm my heart my passion is saying just know the basics no concepts just see the word Bitcoin in a game whatever it takes just like like I mentioned to you

hearing about a Bitcoin ATM five years ago or whatever it was in some way subliminally stuck in the back of my head so yeah there's a 10-year-old who goes over to his friend's house and they start playing chamois and 10 years down the right line after that they said oh you know I remember seeing that

Bitcoin thing when I was at Johnny's house or Susie's house pointing that's what I'm trying to do but then the diving deeper into the the way the game works essentially they're like I said there's targets there's nonces you lay all the nonce cards down actually have a deck here oh you have one here not the

not that the podcast people can see it but at least you can max so we got all the cards here so I've kind of made them so for example I tried to make it as fun as possible so the target and nonce cards are all little kind of that's cool so you actually for people who obviously can't see you got lots of

little characters that they represent numbers do they or yeah exactly so instead of using numbers which some of the early iterations of the game I tried using numbers to make it more real if you will but one it wasn't as fun and it wasn't I knew especially for the younger audience it'd be it's a lot harder to

remember a number versus number as opposed to you know this this guy was one of my favorites actually this you know a Bitcoin guy wearing a top hat so they're all little monster characters so you lay all the the nonce cards down you flip over a target card you roll a dice so here's our little dice and six

sided dice five of the six sides let you play your turn so flip over what card try to match it if you match it you get a reward so we have our rewards here on my left so here's our rewards cards with a nice little character guy holding it up and then that's a reward and you'll start building your blockchain one by

one so here's height zero Genesis block okay and so yeah you can I once again for the audience you have to buy one to be able to actually see it I guess but I've kind of like once again laid in little nuggets if you will so for example at the bottom of height zero says Genesis block at the top it actually has the

hash from the original block and they kind of grow on each other to a height of 10 so the goal is to to mine to a block out of 10 the player with the most rewards at the block out of 10 effectively wins but your chain can get attacked so one of those roles is a character that's an attack guy so if you

roll that there's a whole different set of attack cards that get lined up next to your blockchain if the attack cards get higher than your chain the game resets and everything starts over I'm sorry able to do that there and we also have difficulty adjustments that are part of the game as well so you can have to get

a little harder along the way as well so just kind of fun ways to work in some of those concepts as as you're playing around and start learning a little bit about it I like that because trying to explain Bitcoin to people generally what your experience been without a card game when you get excited about this stuff

and you know I'm sure there was a point where you're just running around wanting to talk to everyone about it what's that response feel like generally yeah it's still I think at least for the my close circle of people it's still something that even for the people who have found more interest in the concept

or what I have to say they haven't taken their full steps down the rabbit hole just yet and then the others are still stuck similar to kind of the accounting or lawyer analogy you know it's been this way you know money if you have money has been this way for you know 90 years or whatever it's been why is it going to

change now and I understand why someone would think like that you know in our lifetime it's that's what it's been and even when there's crashes like we've seen the past few months everybody just expects like it has just to come right back up but it seems like this time is probably whether it's tomorrow or

12 months from now and this time is probably different and especially here in the states with the way just the printers are running I saw I can't remember where I saw it now but the 32% I think it was of all mortgage payments were not paid last month I think it's not like this yeah that might not be the

exact numbers it might not be in 30 years around that sort of number and that is pretty pretty worrying even for people who aren't interested in Bitcoin even people who aren't interested in finance they should see that and go that's not good yeah I saw that report too and like you said whether it was whether it was

30 or 35 or 25 it doesn't matter the concepts the the same the other funny thing I did I noticed that I think some people should think about is I going back to my accounting job and whatnot in the states we have you know 401k's and that sort of thing I was going in there because you know worried that the next

crash the bigger crashes is coming so I was going to take a look at how it's allocated and and try to get to as safe of a harbor as possible and that's allowable in those situations and what I noticed was the while there was the great the big dip in March and everything came back up all of the the

holdings in the fun that I was in they were out literally it was at an all-time high this was you know a week and a half ago and I just in the pocket my head I was like this one awesome I'm glad I'm doing this now and that I'm taking advantage of some of it but secondarily if you're smart enough you should realize that's

probably not a really a good thing in the long run and and something something bad's about to happen at some point something even worse yeah so do you have a sort of view on we'll come back to the we'll come back to the game but just I'll be interested to hear your view on what's gonna happen just in the

world in terms of what what is going to happen with all this money printing and what is you know do we have one more cycle do we have one more where they just print enough that you know we sort of get ourselves out of the problem or at least it looks like that and everyone is happy again and we have one more

cycle and assets move up in price you know property moves up the price of the stock market goes up and Bitcoin I'm sure with it as well yeah and then we just destroy everything or does it just happen within the next year I think I guess obviously my opinion is somewhat swayed by the US cycle of things I'm

we obviously have the the election come up here in in November and knowing the way our idiot leader works over here in the States I'm sure he's gonna do everything he can to make sure that what's happening now continues happening through November even though I don't think he has a chance luckily but that I

think will in my mind is my assumption that you know the government and what what powers he has will try to hold things up now the reverse side of it would be if the other party over here the the Democratic Party decides to say you know we want this to crash now because we want to make it even less

likely that he's gonna win the election in November and I could see that happening too but my gut would lean that he's gonna keep printing I know last week he mentioned another round of stimulus checks coming out at some who knows when but you know I think that's that's the cycle that at least I'm personally

looking at and then once November hits seeing how everything reacts from there will be really interesting because obviously let's say you know assuming Biden or Kanye wins see where it goes from there yeah it's I find it weird personally like being a Bitcoin when I think about

these things because like the logical part of me will say I just want them to stop I want them to slow things down I don't want them to print too much I want them to try and be a little bit responsible and try and not print too much and go too crazy because that's the best thing that they can do without

completely destroying everything but then the other side of me that's the Bitcoin side is like fuck it just print just print ruin yourself and and all this money's gonna be sloshing around and anyone who has half a brain is gonna put it into a hard asset so thanks very much yeah do you find a similar sort of

you're on both sides of the fence yeah exactly no I couldn't agree more and both of those sides you kind of sitting in there and saying which which is better and like okay well I'm in Bitcoin already and I'm gonna keep being in it so I guess you know and whatever plays out along or along it takes people like

me and people like you are sitting here saying we're gonna hopefully be safe the safest in the long run even or even if we get hurt and some other things is always saying nobody's gonna be or some sure some people are a hundred percent in Bitcoin but I'm sure some things are gonna take a hit for us but

at least we have that safe hardware to fall back on yeah it's it's it's quite nice it helps you sleep a little bit better at night I know like it shouldn't for sort of 99% of the world would be like that's crazy but once you understand that you do have that fixed supply and once you understand that you can verify

that what you own is what you own and you know that something in the digital world is actually much harder for someone to seize or take or steal than something in the physical world then it does kind of feel that feels like that's safe yeah everything else feels really really precarious like properties feel

worrying like we're saying before like that can't be good yeah exactly and stop market yeah I know I mean I'm a condo on my hair in San Diego and not for you or your audience how much you guys know about kind of the property here and in California and particularly in San Diego but it's one of the highest you know

San Diego San Francisco yeah highest areas obviously different ends of the spectrum there in California but they're just skyrocketed over years I was lucky enough to not because I'm smart because I'm lucky in the timing of when I graduated and whatnot get in to the place I have now in the last 28 2008

bump down and that's truly the only reason I was ever able to purchase something here in that current form because you know people had gotten over extended and then all that happened there and that's probably gonna happen again and especially in towns like San Diego you know tourist town obviously

we've all those industries have taken a big hit Airbnb's and VRBO's and all those rental properties that are sitting out here in just the neighborhood that surrounding me I'm at the beach and in the bay one of the top places for people to come and rent from and I'm sure they've all been just ravaged over these

past three or four months yeah they're just sat empty no one can do anything with them yeah I mean I had to cancel a bunch of vacations yeah it's it's a really weird situation and like I guess the the argument for anyone when we do have this crash I guess the argument will be oh well we can have seen COVID

coming which okay a lot of people have talked about global pandemics for a very long time and said that it's you know a serious problem so putting that aside we still had all these issues anyway yeah it's just accelerated things and exactly my concern is that the majority of people will just completely put this

down to COVID you know that's certainly the feedback that I get from people when I say do you think this is a bit weird that that's why I said and they'll just go yeah but it's COVID yeah is it the same there is everyone sort of just fully blaming it on that I think so and the other thing as I'm sure you've seen in

the news people I mean this is not just a US thing but particularly here I mean people are we have such short cycles of thought and attention span and what we've seen here is you know our numbers are obviously skyrocketing still but people think that oh you know it's been four months so it must be better you know we

we can't keep you know doing what we're supposed to be doing and then well just because your board doesn't mean it's time to just go out and do whatever you want and obviously the in general the rest of the world has handled that a lot better and I think it like you said that attention span and just looking for a

way to blame whether it's blaming out a pandemic blaming it on XYZ blaming it on Trump underlying everything it was gonna happen at some point we just had you know the rocket ship come and explode at once with a lot of different things happening that really put it into hyperdrive and then the government's putting

their try to their reaction into hyperdrive and then now we're kind of sitting here in a point where like we said earlier are we going left or we going right knows it's gonna go one way or another but people people will find their own narrative deployment on something other than themselves I'm sure yeah

it was surreal wasn't it I mean especially for us who are listening to all the different podcasts and who are who are very interested in Bitcoin we're all asking the question for so long now is just like when is this crash gonna come and when it did come where was only a short period but when when we had the

problems in the market and like all this stuff is going crazy I almost felt like I was just like it was part of the film or something I was like everything that we're talking about is literally happening now and we know why it's happening yeah and no one's looking yeah it's so weird yeah it was very weird and

almost a sense of paralysis too because you're just like it's happening but is it really happening is it really happening and you hear about it but then there's always that part of you that can doubt part but you know what you've thought for you know however many years and it's like it was a very weird it's

still weird sitting here today you know I've I you know for since I graduated for college in 2008 we're as used to getting up and physically going to an office to work in whether it was my job now or my job back then but you know March hit everything went remote and then for us for our work at Journey's

map looks like well even if things turn around from a virus endpoint things have worked out in the sense that it makes makes sense to be staying remote and not kind of getting up every day and having to drive into an office and go through that process which I know some people might not like I I've particularly

enjoyed that change it's been I have a one-year-old she actually turned one during the pandemic so we got to be one of the few that celebrated a first birthday during the pandemic and all the fun that came from from that side of things so it's been nice you know on the selfish side you know I get to while I'm

still working and obviously that makes it more challenging on a day-to-day in some ways I also got to spend mass amounts more time with her than I would have otherwise and if that gets to keep going on even outside of the the virus aspect then you know what it's a win for me well yeah some good can come out of

all of this you know a lot of the issues that we talk about all the time are not spending enough time with family and loved ones especially when you're when you're in a job where you're working eight 10 12 14 16 hours a day and then you bring your home your work home with you and you're sat on the sofa and you're

still working and you're not fully ever engaged with family time because you're on your phone or you're on you know that that's a that's a real problem and if you're working from home if it's structured correctly if you can just take out the travel time you know a lot of people are traveling a couple of hours

a day and if you can take that out it just frees up so much more time yeah it's better for the environment it's better for you know you haven't got all these people sat in traffic all morning and all the way back as well so there are some things there are some good things that can come out of it and I guess

we just have to look at the positive side otherwise we go crazy I've probably gotten you know two two and a half hours of my day back just when you think again I'm like I was lucky we're in the sense my commute to the office would take anywhere from you know you know around 15 or so minutes so nothing bad but when

you think of the prep that goes into getting ready to go getting you know my both my wife and I like working out in the morning so coordinating that you okay you're gonna get up at 5 30 and workout and then that for other persons on baby duty and then you're gonna reverse things and then yeah where you know where's Charlotte

going today where would we have to drop her off and then reverse that on the way back where we're picking up and I got to make dinner whereas now most of our days we start we wake up when you know we she starts crying in the morning you know say seven o'clock yeah we'll do it in our walker run around the bay and we're

back and we're ready to go you know between 8 30 and 9 no different than I'd be ready to go between 8 30 and 9 if I had to be at an office but I don't have to I don't have to shower yet I'd have to get ready I don't have to drop her off I can just walk into my corner here in the bedroom and not ideal but I'm

there and start connecting yeah it's gonna change things a lot I think and and obviously some of these things are gonna be good oh yeah my wife is counting down we're we're avid scuba divers so really if we're planning vacations it's usually around the neck dive spot and so we're both and in particular excited

because our job's gone remote for the most part to being able to say well you know we can take longer trips in this sense because we maybe maybe we're not diving every day yeah but we kind of plan it out where instead of going for a week down to Belize you know we can go for two weeks and you're diving every

other day and you're doing the work the other you know just being able to have that sense of freedom is something where once the the world opens up again a bit more excited about have you died for a long time or I don't for the first time in 2012 in Thailand with my sister actually that was the first time and then

I met my now wife in early 2013 and she had never dove before but within the first year I think we took a trip to Hawaii and talked her into to trying it out she was scared shit list the night before woke up in the middle of the night and she was gonna get eaten by sharks and I said don't just try it if you don't

like it we'll come back up you know you don't have to you know keep going but I knew she'd be hooked and she was and so generally you know every year we go and probably around two or so dive trips to different spots to check it out and it's just something we both love doing it looks amazing it's something

that's I've always taught me I'm a partner always talk about it and we're like oh we want to go diving like we've just been really busy recently but it's definitely like the the next thing that I want to learn is to go diving it just looks to it you know you're good but I am scared of the same thing as your wife

like the sharks there's not others I'm just scared of sharks and I'm gonna spy this they're my two fears I hate spiders I love sharks and she loves sharks now here's the sea sharks don't give a shit about you down there because they are more apt to get you if honestly if you're snorkeling because

you're just what you're bobbing up there like a seal but one of our favorite spots to go is down in Belize San Pedro Island they have tons of sharks down there friendly ones for the most part and you're down there and sometimes you'll jump off the boat you start descending down and you look down and there's five

six seven just circling below you and you just go down they they don't care about you sometimes they're so used to it no joke one of the times you were there I had one that there's almost like a dog he almost attached himself to my hip for an entire dive and just kind of swimming along me for you know a dive

you know 50 minutes and say you know 30 of it he just kind of chilling going along and it's what else that tight say to you and hopefully after it happens and maybe sometime we can go diving together you'll find out it's one of the most peaceful experiences you'll ever have because you have nothing but the

sound of your breath and other ocean type and just water moving and and that sort of thing and it just kind of everything about it is relaxing you're not down there you know you're not Michael Phelps trying to swim as fast as you can you're just slowly gliding along conserving your air and checking things

out so I'll for you and your partner highly recommend checking it out and then who knows one day we can dive down there together yeah that'd be amazing I'm a desperate want to get out to the state so if I do I'll give you a shout for sure funny thing is I've never actually dove in the States oh really

yeah just I guess maybe partly spoiled even you know San Diego being a huge beach town and we do have spots that people dive but it's more one the Pacific Ocean here is not climbing in the summer it's and you know 70 degrees or so early you know low 70s but even then is not super warm when you get down

below so both my wife and I are we like going to the warmer climates to do the dive trip so whether it's Mexico, Belize, Thailand, Love, Cayman Islands, Honduras there's a bunch of spots over in your neck of the woods that I'd love to check out too to dive so you've got to do the patty and then once you've done that you

couldn't go by yourself yeah so either patty or there's another organization to they're essentially the same thing tip for you if you want to save some money go do your training in so we got we actually took our certifications in Bali on our honeymoon okay and you'll save a boatload of

money at least I'm assuming it's probably similar to the States here you know where if I wanted to get patty super fried here in San Diego probably would have cost altogether maybe like five six hundred bucks all in but in Bali I think it costs like 250 300 plus you get to be diving in a place like

Bali so yeah like go to Thailand go to Bali Southeast Asia and it's super safe like all those people the dive shops people couldn't be nicer so it's not like you're putting their wife in your own hands do your research trip advisor that sort of thing and you'll enjoy it and you'll save money so there's my tip

for you yeah I'll definitely check that out all right so circling back to your journeys map I just wondered when you were talking through and you were saying about data science and all these different sort of career paths that you're suggesting for these these kids like is there any crossover there with

the Bitcoin industry is there any sort of paths that you're giving people where they can work in within Bitcoin not quite I mean not as direct as probably will be there one day but I think even touching on kind of what you're saying earlier around the accounting side of things where if you are encoding or

programming or an IT in some way as things move along that's gonna probably potentially lead you into pathways that you could part be part of the the bico in just Bitcoin industry obviously even things like sales or marketing going to work for a company going to work for a company like

Shamari when I get you know big enough and take over the world or but even think about companies like Lolly or Fold or all these groups out there where you don't need to have that technical aspect just like I didn't need to have that technical aspect to create a game you could go you know I'm you know biz dev

or sales and marketing at the end of the day those things are gonna still be needed to power Bitcoin to make that awareness happen so I think it as the companies like we've talked about keep you growing those opportunities are only gonna grow and grow and then really it's just saying yeah do I have the skills

needed for the next century of what people are looking for whether it's in Bitcoin or anything else so a lot of what we found which may be interesting is particularly here in the States universities are finally realizing that their degree doesn't mean shit yeah and we've known that for a long time

yeah lots of debt only growing and also what means something are the skills that are being provided so what a lot of the universities here are doing and I assume the same will happen around the world is they're taking their course catalogs and they're aligning their courses down to the skill level to be

able to say okay Max if you take this course you're gonna gain these five skills and then what we can do at Journey's map is say okay those five skills are aligned to these 50 jobs so then you know maybe you don't need to get a degree that might take 50 courses you could take two courses you're gonna

gain 10 skills and based on those 10 skills Max you can now go get a job at XYZ and maybe you're still going and take other courses because you do want the the degree ultimately but that's your individual choice and hopefully then it's going back to your debt comment you're not going into massive debt you're

you're making money along the way yeah that sounds like a much better way of doing things I look at sort of people over here the debt that people come out from university is bad yeah but it's not like us bad it's not that bad it's just like I look at some of those figures and it makes my eyes water just

think I really feel bad for these kids because like I don't know how you get out of it I don't know how because you know presumably you know if you come out with a hundred or 150 thousand dollars of debt and then you even if you go into a good job yeah you're gonna go oh I've just done whatever it is five

years and I've got my degree and oh you know I'm feeling good I want to buy myself a car I want to get a property or I want to do something so then they're gonna get more debt yeah and then you get a climatize you get used to that and you get into a job where other people have got a nice watch or they got this

and when when you're that age and you think that these things are important they're they're sort of I feel like it's just a hamster world that you just never get off no it's horrible yeah no you did that's definitely the case and I think that's part of the the bubble that we're seeing happened just around

education debt the cycle of things where it's all all going and hopefully I mean back even for years before my wife and I had Charlotte I'd always have jokingly but mostly serious say I don't expect my kids to go to college and I'm not when I say that I don't mean I don't believe in education I obviously

believe in education look at what I'm working on I don't believe in education the way it's presented today it's not valuable it the value add is not there and even one thing that's my wife has gained more and more interest on over the past few weeks through the pandemic and actually through some of Daniel's

work on the homeschool side of things you may be where so he put together that homeschool summit I presented at journeys map as part of it awesome and then so for people out there who want to learn more about that that's one way to check out that homeschool 2020 I'm Daniel Prince always support his work I'll put

the links in as well but my wife's even taken more interest in saying well you know when Charlotte is of age do we need to send her to traditional school did she gonna go to public school or are there ways are there hybrids out there where you know we're doing some sort of homeschooling and then maybe two days

a week she's going to these other things and I'm all for that I think that's more and more the case I love what what I know about what Daniel is done with the kids and traveling around and teaching through that and it's it's just as valuable and I like we talked about earlier it helped bring that

family life and more balance - 100% I think that there's only a very small percentage of children that benefit from the current system the way it's structured and and maybe it's 5% or 10% of kids who just they're very good at retaining information they're not really thinking they just retain

information well and can pass exams well and they don't they do exactly what they're told and never question anything so they don't get in trouble it works for them but for people with curious minds or who think in a slightly different way or don't you know they want to explore you might have a kid

where it's absolutely fascinated by a certain thing you know I don't know it might be their chemistry set or something like that and and then to pull them away from what they want to be learning and they're passionate about to teach them about something they don't care about it just seems it seems so

weird and and I think that's the case for I mean certainly I hated school and they hated me and sort of at least half the people I speak to have the same they think about school and they just shudder yeah that doesn't feel right yeah I'm saying I was never a fan of the traditional school and going every day

it's something you know I just did because I knew you had to do it just checking off the box but you know the more I've learned about it just from learning you know working in it and just seeing everything going on it and really what you hear a lot of the complaints about oh you know the schools have to

reopen the schools have to reopen well one it's not safe that's that's not a kid ourselves and part of the reason a lot of the parents are saying that is because school is just a babysitting service and without and without those eight hours a day they can't work which I understand but that doesn't there's a way that we

need to figure all this out and I don't have a solution to that but let's step back and really realize why a lot of the people are why those people are saying those things just because they're being inconvenienced because their kids have nowhere to go every day it's not necessarily because they're worried about

what their kids learning because like we've said we're probably not learning all that much or the kids don't know all that much and you can learn you can take two hours out of the day they can learn just as much if you structure it right yeah I think as well like if you're if a if a parent is saying oh my

children need to be at school because I can't teach them what you're basically saying there is I'm a shit parent that that's basically or or I don't care enough and I'm stupid because like you say you can spend a couple of hours and you can structure things in a way that it works around your child and how they

learn and what they're interested in and yeah sure it's probably a pain and they are sometimes and you've got other things to do but like they're gonna learn so much better because that's one-on-one not you know 20, 30, 40 kids in a classroom learning the same syllabus that they they've been learning for 20

years and is outdated and you know they're gonna come out of school with skills that are just irrelevant oh yeah that's come I mean people you know you go to school you're we're learning from a physical textbook that was out of date the second it was printed yeah that's just stupid and that truly is part of

the concept around journeys map like we think of that as a collective knowledge database where anybody who wants to contribute to it you can start putting resources up there no different you know maybe you had a menu from a restaurant that you grabbed five years ago well guess what that menu probably

isn't accurate but if you went to Google Maps and found that restaurant and clicked on menu you're finding the up-to-date information same concept just you know and is it just U.S. based journeys map or are you so our focus right now has been U.S. based just because we can only handle so much we're a small

bit mighty team but the con the groundwork and everything we're building is meant to be worldwide it would work the same whether we're here in San Diego and UK and Thailand it just kind of comes around to regionalization and as we keep growing we'll be able to satisfy those users in a more deeper way that's really

cool yeah I like that and I like how all this stuff ties into a sort of a Bitcoiners perspective of things seems to be the it seems to be very very different to what the average person thinks across for everything basically but what I've seen is that most Bitcoin has seemed to be open to this home

schooling and looking at things a slightly different way yeah do you think that is because they have had to question everything that they were ever taught to understand Bitcoin or do you think it is that they understand Bitcoin because they're people who questioned everything anyway and they had that

brain and therefore they're more open to other ideas I think probably for the majority of where we're sitting here today it's probably more the latter you had some of that in you to allow us to to get this deep down the rabbit hole probably as we the next phase comes in and the next you know the next leg up

happens and we get that next wave of people that might be more okay I wasn't thinking like that but now that I am potentially seeing these options let me dive deeper into these alternatives and to be honest a lot of the people well it'll be the same thing that happened in the last one where you know you came in

2017 2018 you somehow lost a bunch of money because of you know all coins or whatnot and then you get pushed away again and then you'll it'll keep happening but yeah I think we're probably still more of that okay the majority of us sitting here today probably had a at least some layer of that built into our

personality type to begin with and then as we move forward it'll be more of that common person that is gonna start learning about it yeah I think this next wave is well assuming that we do have another wave which I think we wouldn't be here if we didn't think that was gonna happen but when it comes is

gonna in my opinion anyway just dwarf the last one and the other thing that we have is not only is there gonna be a lot more money coming into the system and we've got more businesses but we've also got much better education so like if you compare now to when you got in when you start getting involved and you look at

the difference between like oh yeah what is out there and who's talking about the stuff and who's writing and who's podcasting and who's you know like your game all these things just come together and yeah for a new becoming in do you think that journey is gonna be a little bit different or do you still think

they're just gonna buy the shit coins get wrecked cry go away for a little bit and then finally work out that she everything else is bullshit and come back to Bitcoin I think it's gonna have to go through the pain I think there's 100% more avenues to learn on the way and whether it's through a chamois

through like you said podcast like yours like Daniels like you know tells from the crypt whoever whatever it is what Bitcoin did or through articles that are written there's so much more of that than you know three four years ago when I first came to the space and I was googling how to find things and get to

you know figure out who's who I can trust and who I can't know what exactly you can video I should watch and probably none of them and all those things so I think we'll definitely see more people who come in the quote unquote right way but just human natural instinct there's gonna be a ton of

people who just come like we saw last week with the whole tick-tock dog toy oh yeah you know yeah it happened again it's always gonna happen and that's just that that's probably how you know people like me or people like you in the long run are gonna be making even more money because the money's coming in and

flowing somewhere and then flowing to somebody else who's probably then cycling into Bitcoin yeah almost without that it's like marketing isn't it you see you know someone see something go up a crazy percentage it draws them in they watch some dickhead youtuber who's telling them they're gonna get a Lambo

from $50 and and and then they get wrecked but that money like you say is then in this somewhere it's in that ecosystem yep and even things you know like what was it like two weeks or so going out when it was you know PayPal and Venmo you know starting to pull in Bitcoin or crypto whatever knows what it

turns out to be little things like that are gonna help and I think the more people realize I mean cash is gonna go away in some form and then slowly and slowly but surely and what what you're doing when I send you know somebody 20 bucks on Venmo to pay for the food they picked up that's that's just a

digital currency like that's not a dollar it's not like it's just a number that's getting passed from Scott to Max why wouldn't you want to make sure that what I'm passing from Scott to Max is actually something that Scott had and now Max has and as more and more things become simple like that obviously

especially three or four years ago it was a lot harder to figure okay we're gonna I'm gonna send this transaction here blah blah blah blah blah but now whether it's things like I know the the strike app that that came out into testing last week the same yeah played around with it a little bit so but

things like that are gonna make it so much easier where it's just intuitive to say well even if you have no idea what Bitcoin is just click this button it can be connected to your bank account and then it's happening it doesn't matter nobody nobody needs to know how an email is sent but I know that if I hit

send here it's gonna end up in Max's inbox it works yeah that's all the matter yeah that's true do you dive quite into the tech side of things are you somebody likes to get their hands dirty with you know new wallets and nodes and all that kind of stuff not yet it's on my list still to set up actually my

first node so I haven't gone that far just my attention I need to focus on one thing so a lot of it's just been on one creating the game it took a lot of work to for those who might have listened to some my other podcast even go back to Daniels back then I was still trying to figure out I had a manufacturer lined

up here in the States and then COVID hit and they had to get shut down so then I had to figure out how else I could get it printed so that delayed things so just between this out now though yep last we're ready to order yep so I just quickly shill where people can find it yeah so hit the website up is is a

shamari.com S-H-A-M-O-R-Y so that's the the spot you can come into to buy it I did go ahead and make a discount code for your listeners so 10% 10% off we can put in the show notes drop-in code bit by bit 10 at checkout and you'll get that discount and happy to do that they're international shipping so worldwide

doesn't matter where you are and also obviously most active on Twitter so whether it's the the handled play shamari that's the company one or I'm Scott M. Sibley S-I-B-L-E-Y feel free to connect DMs on both sides or are always open and connecting and engaging is always welcome and anything else in the

pipeline if you sort of have you got the itch now that you've made one game or I've got there's other I definitely have other ideas for how this can work one thing that one purpose behind creating the the monsters and kind of the fun way was I knew if it worked out hopefully they could be part of kind of a larger

ecosystem of things that particularly kids might like so for example I've got a bunch of stickers of some of the characters printed off and like I said a one-year-old daughter absolutely goes bananas for them like we have one on her her sippy cup and whatnot and she just can't stop pointing at it and playing it

and the first day she woke up and she saw all of our boxes wrapped to start shipping their special tape on using that as the monsters and she just goes crazy so whether it's things like simple things like stickers and plush toys that's that's in the back of my head but even more educational type things where

different versions of the game books so I envision ways that through kind of simple kids books the game can be or Bitcoin can be awareness could be there the other thing that I had in the back of my head which I've had beginning discussions on were the few different people but for anybody out there

listening for any companies that once say for example conferences start coming back up I would envision the game being a cool little swag piece that you could use at your tables to give away and being able to do you know have your logo printed on the the box kind of branded if you will there's something I'm very

interested in connecting with anybody about and being able to let that a lot of the studies I've so read show that the top swag at conferences that people try to get are things to take back to their kids because it's just a nice little thoughtful thing and it's something that'll get used so just to be

clear whether you're you know buying it for your kids or someone like my age or look about the same age max or older hopefully the game is something that that any age can have fun with so 10 year old all the way to a 70 year old amazing amazing and anything else because we come up to sort of just over

an hour now is there anything else that you wanted to cover that we haven't covered or anything that you wanted to get across that we've missed I think we hit on a lot I never expect we'd go down a scuba diving rabbit hole user either so that was nice always happy to talk about those things as well as

weaving in some of the journeys map and educational side so now I think that this was a really really fun time and I really much enjoyed it and actually we're talking here a new order just pop through so maybe somebody's listening to us or call here thank you yeah I must be a lucky charm exactly yeah no it's

been great it's been really nice chatting to you and the game looks awesome I love the idea of the journeys map that sounds amazing it sounds like the way things should be going and yeah we've touched on lots of different bits the scuba diving stuff I definitely will reach out and chat you when when I get

my awesome gear and that'd be awesome perfect yeah great great chatting to you and anything any other releases anything that happens let me know and I'd love to have you on again I will do thanks for connecting and for everybody listening thanks for taking the hour out of your data to learn about what's

going on awesome all right cheers then Scott thanks Max