EP35 Bitcoin podcast with ₿itcoin Q+A

Welcome back to BitByBit everyone. Today I'm talking to Bitcoin Q&A. We talk about dogs, we have some audio issues, and then finally we get on to wallets. We talk about why it's important to have your own, how to best secure them, and the different types of wallets

out there. I really enjoyed chatting to Bitcoin Q&A. He's got some of the best content out there. He has an amazing website and I'm really looking forward to collaborating with him in the future. After recording this episode, I reached straight back out to him and said,

look, come on, we've got to do this again. Not only do we need to do wallets, we need to do nodes. That is actually going to be recorded in the next couple of days, which I'm really excited for. I think I'm going to be releasing one a week for the next few weeks and we're

going to all help improve our privacy, which is so important and it can be hard at times. So with the help of Bitcoin Q&A, we're going to talk through all the different ways that you can help improve your privacy and security with Bitcoin. As I said, today we're talking

about wallets, but we are going to do a few others and all of these different technologies put together in the right way can help make you self-soffron and secure. I really hope you enjoy and this is as much a learning experience for me as it is for all of you.

And I'm really hoping that this is going to help and that all of us are going to improve our privacy together. Enjoy. Testing. I can hear you now. I enjoy. I can hear you. Can you hear me? Got you. Got

you. That was so weird. I think it was me to be honest with you. I think I've got my airport connected to my Mac laptop, which is connected to my screen in my office, but I think if I have the lid closed because I've got it connected to a screen, the headphones don't work. I think that's where I've got to.

Well, that makes a change because it's usually me who fucks up the audio, so that's nice for a change. I just need to find a way to turn you up a little bit. I love it. I love it. We've had him for us. Must be about. Oh, Jesus. It was on just on lockdown. It was end of March.

We got him right at the end of March. Cool. Yeah, he's he's great, but he's a pain in the arse as well. Just a little bit. What about yours? She is just over 10 a week old. So we've only had her for just over two. Obviously you

can't take away from that for her. It's going to hit till eight weeks. That's it, yeah. Sort of the in use of the household. And then I'm trying to remember how long it was after that that you can then have their jabs and they can go out. Yeah, she's had one set. Yeah,

so we've got then you've got to wait four weeks and then you can have the second set and then you've got to wait another week and then all systems go. Okay. Yeah, she'll be she'll be raring to go. They have so much energy. Yeah, yeah, it's it's hard. Have you

had all the crying during the night and everything? She's not been too bad. First couple of nights keeping her in a crate at the bottom of stairs. So first couple of nights she was trying a lot of it but she's good as gold now. Trying to tie her out about an hour before bedtime.

I mean, yeah, she's pretty good. It was, you know, the odd win for a lot and then she gets the message that I was going to be supposed to sleep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's good. That's good. Yeah, we had we had major issues for the first sort of, I don't know, it must

been about a week or 10 days. He was just crying every half an hour. I was having to sort of get up and make sure he's all right. But you know, we had him downstairs so I won't have dogs upstairs and fight and I was, you know, I got to the point. I was like, Jesus,

if I made the wrong decision here, this is a nightmare. And then just just one night we went to bed and then he was silent and he's never woken us ever again since. Not a single yip, nothing. So just, I think you're just missing his mum. Yeah. Yeah, all right. Well,

listen, I can talk dogs all day, but the listeners aren't really going to be here for that. So let's let's jump in and do, first of all, an introduction for anyone who doesn't know you or hasn't seen your work, Bitcoin Q&A. Can you do an introduction, please? Yeah, so

I am Bitcoin Q&A on Twitter. Obviously, that's a pseudonym to maintain what little I'm privacy because I'll have at the moment. So yeah, I'm just your typical Twitter, basically. I try and educate people where I can. Obviously, put together Bitcoin Q&A.com aims very much

at breaking people in gently. Obviously, I'm sure we'll get into the weeds that that later on. But, you know, I just try and sort of help people where I can. And, you know, it wasn't all that long ago that I was entering this space, super confused, not knowing which

way to turn and use a lot to for advice and understand all the facets that Bitcoin pulls you down. So yeah, I just try and help people where I can, basically. Okay. Well, I think you're being very humble there because I've looked through your website

and I've only come across it recently, to be honest. But I've looked through and honestly, it's one of the best resources I have found to break things down in a simple way. The way that anyone can just jump on here and because it's broken down by category, it's

just easy to dive in and everything sort of bite size, which I really like. So for anyone who's listening and hasn't already checked it out, jump on now and have a look, it's just really nice. And that's why I reached out to you because I thought what would be

really nice is to go into maybe one specific topic and dig a little bit deeper so that someone who's coming in and isn't really used to this space or they've just heard about Bitcoin or they've just bought their first Bitcoin or maybe they're thinking about doing

it that we can go through and maybe talk about wallets would be a good one. And I thought no one better than than you to talk about this stuff. So before we do that, can you just tell me, obviously, I've looked through the website and this is clearly something you care deeply

about and privacy seems to be very, very important to you. What was it that has led you down this path? How did you find Bitcoin and why so much on the privacy side? Okay, so I mean, the privacy thing has been relatively recent rather whole sort of fell

into. In terms of how did I discover Bitcoin first and foremost, I was obviously, but unfortunately, still got a fair job. So I was sat in the office and one of the guys who I was sharing with was playing on his phone. And, you know, I got really into it. So I said, you know,

what you want to do there? And he said, oh, I'm mining, I'm going from an arrow. I'm better at this point. At this point, I've never even heard of cryptocurrency. I don't know what it is. And I've heard, well, I've heard of Bitcoin, but I've never paid any

attention. This was sort of peak all-realness just before Bitcoin hit $20,000 in late 2017. So, so I said to him, I said, you know, you're doing what to with whom on what? And basically, he didn't fully grasp it himself. He was sort of, you know, it's free money. And, you know,

so that obviously, you know, I came into the space very much sort of, for number go up like most people do, you know, I don't try to hide it or anything like that. So that kind of, I suppose the easy money aspect made me look a little deeper. I obviously didn't

spend too much time dwelling on mining or my phone or anything like that. But I started just watching YouTube videos. Got, you know, unfortunately, fell down the shit coin by the hole a little bit, became a big fan of Litecoin. Yeah. Yeah. So.

Me too, by the way. So don't, don't feel too bad about that. I did as well at the start, but now I look back and I just think, fuck. Yeah. Yeah. How was the time that I waste watching those YouTube videos? Anyway, so yeah. I spent a lot of time listening to some

terrible crypto podcasts. And, but, you know, there was some nuggets of information I picked up there that, you know, they were still talking about Bitcoin. Obviously, it wasn't sort of flavour than back then. It was, it was alt-season, so to speak. And then I stumbled across some

Andreas videos and then I, that sort of led me down some more radicals of some more sort of serious content, you know, a bit more focused towards Bitcoin. I spoke more properly, led pill. It was at that time as well. I just got a new, a new fear job that involved the

hell of a lot of drive in the UK. So obviously, I had a lot of time on my hands behind the wheel. Discovered. Yeah. Discovered all the, you know, mainstream podcast, you know, so it tells them the great step of my era, et cetera, et cetera. And I literally, that was

the tipping point for me was, you know, just, I was stuck behind the wheel, but I was, now I was driving for that country, just sort of soaking up as much of, of this information that these guys were screwing out as I could. And that was obviously sort of early 2018,

which is when I kind of flipped fall into full sort of maxi mode, so to speak. And it's been a relentless quest for the knowledge ever since, really, obviously, you know, got stuck into telegram groups, all over Twitter. And yeah, just adding to my podcast records

while yours, obviously being one of them as well. And which is, yeah, it's just, it's every day, just, I'm learning something new and a little bit. So it's the perfect space in the car when you're driving to get through podcasts. There is no better place for it.

No, no, he got to the point where I was looking for longer ways home, so I could finish the next step of the very part. So yeah, yeah, fully fledged in the club ring, shit coin, hold my hands up. But again, we phoned the cast and tell from the print matters as well

as everybody's going to touch their bonds of mess. Exactly. Yeah, that was a, you know, recap on my rabbit hole story. Yeah, what's so interesting is that everyone who finally becomes maximalist, although I don't particularly like the term, it's more just, they use reason.

They all sort of have, we all have the same way in, it's always, you know, you watch those shitty YouTube videos with the Lambo boys and all the bullshit. And we all think that, and then we all think we can trade and think that we're going to make loads of money because

we can beat the market because we're smart and everyone else. And then we realize we're not. And then we finally find like the decent, the decent content on YouTube, which pretty much at the time, it sounds like you were in and me as well, was Andres on to Nopolis.

And then you obsessively watch all of that content and then go, Oh shit, this is bigger than just making money. And then you finally find Bitcoin Twitter and the other podcasts. And then you go, Oh, okay, this is the obvious thing that's the only thing that works. It's

it's so weird that that we all it will have to go through that same, the same pain basically to get to a point of just going, okay, yeah, Bitcoin's the thing that matters. Absolutely. Like I say, I feel like it's become the defacto way in for most people, really, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah. But you say you have to touch a stove. Sorry. Sorry. No, no, no, you go. I forgot what I was going to say now. You know, it's gone. Good. Anyway, so let's move on. Yeah, let's move on from that. So the idea, you know, we're obviously we've spoken before,

but the idea behind this podcast is to try and help people avoid the sort of problems that we have to go through, avoid the shit coining and try and do things as safely and privately as possible. So obviously, it would be nice for people to understand probably one

of the most useful things to start with is to have a wallet, understand what it is, understand how to use it and so that they can hold their own keys and that they don't have money on an exchange. So I think probably the best thing to do would be if I just ask you some

questions as I would have when I first entered the space and maybe we can go through bit by bit until somebody who's listening and they might be new to it can understand what they should do and how to do it safely. How does that sound? Sounds good to me. Sounds

good. Yeah, like I say, just to add one more thing before you get cracking on that is what being emotional, the content I put out on the science stuff, it's very much geared on the things that people sort of touch and directly interact with when they're interacting

with the Bitcoin network. Obviously, there's loads of great content out there about what is sound money and Bitcoin fixes this, etc, etc. I think that all of that stuff's great but what shapes Bitcoin for me and what shapes how I feel about it is the way I interact

with it. So it's again, like you say, wallet, nodes, different applications because ultimately that is what you're seeing for you that are touching. So yeah, that's why I try and keep my content focused on that sort of stuff. I look at it as practical advice. Well, yeah,

because everything else is theory, isn't it? I mean, it's all fascinating and it's amazing talking about this type of Bitcoinization world and all the reasons why Bitcoin is better than the traditional financial system. But until you really start using it, it's

hard to grasp and it's hard to grasp quite how amazing the system is. So that's what I really liked with the website is that like you say, it's what you can actually do with it today. And this just makes it so much more simple. I wish I'd have come across a website

like this when I first got in it. It really, really is helpful. Yeah, but there's, you know, there's quite a few out there now that but the problem is is finding it in the sea of information that is, you know, Bitcoin's worth of and the internet in general. So hopefully

if I keep shilling it hard enough, you know, if new things will find it and it'll help. Definitely. Well, I'm shitting it to everybody that I know because I really do think it's brilliant. And obviously, now we're going to get into this is I'm hoping going to be

the episode I can point people to if they ask me, how do I hold my own keys? What is this wallet thing? What am I doing? I'll say, right, go on to this. And I'm hoping that we can make it as simple as possible. So to tell me, what is a wallet? I've just bought

my Bitcoin and I'm holding I'm holding on an exchange. And someone said to me, not your keys, not your coins. And apparently I've got to use this wallet thing. What is what is that? Okay, so who ever told you that first and foremost gave you great advice? So you

should listen to them. And so just to recap, and if you've got your your Bitcoin stored on an exchange, essentially, it's not your big. So what does that mean in practicality? So and bitcoins are controlled and spent by private keys. And essentially, what a wallet

is is a collection of private keys that give you access to spend the Bitcoin that's held within. And so to expand on that a little bit more. So a wallet can take many shapes. The most common of which that much people will start with will be a mobile wallet. So

essentially, it's an application on your phone that is able to connect to the Bitcoin network. So it will in your example, it will allow you to receive Bitcoin to send Bitcoin and to store it for as long as you need, basically. So when you open a wallet, the wallet will

generate what's known as a set of well, sorry, as a seed phrase. And essentially, what your seed phrases is a master password, essentially, anyone with this seed phrase basically has access to all of the Bitcoin that's stored within that wallet. So the seed phrase takes

the shape of 12 or 24 words, the human-readable words. So we'll keep you to remember. For anybody listening to this, that is opening, also creating the wallet for the first time is the wallet will warn you, make sure you write these seed words down. And they are essentially the password

to all of your Bitcoin. And so it's worth remembering that that's not a warning to just hit yes to and then forget about if you were to not write these words down and to, you know, lose your phone, essentially, you've lost your Bitcoin as well.

Okay. Just to break that down slightly is what we're saying is you're downloading an application. This is if it's on a phone wallet. So say it's a small amount of Bitcoin. Someone's just bought 50 pounds worth. Okay. And so we've said to them, right, you download this

application and that would be like downloading any other application on their phone. And then they press the application, they open it up and you're saying the first thing it will say is, right, we're going to give you these 12 to 24 words. And then they need to write

those down. And that's kind of like a, like a master backup in case they lose their phone or it dies or something happens. And what happens if they don't do that? What happens if they, they listen to this and go, ah, you too, you're talking shit. I can't be bothered

with that. What happens if they then lose their phone or, or it goes down the toilet? Well, essentially you lose your Bitcoin. So like I said, these are the master, the master keys, the master password, whatever you like to call it to your Bitcoin. Right. So write

them down, garden with your life. And most wallets these days also, you'll get that initial warning when you first open the application to say easy to see words writing down. And most wallets as well will allow you to go into this, into the settings, into the menu,

in the application to view these words again. I would, I would urge people not to rely on that because that is not a de facto standard, not happy wallet does it. But most of the good ones will do so. But please, if you take anything away from this, write those words

down and drop and say, okay. So they, so they've done that. They've listened, they've written down the 12 to 24 words. And now what do they do? Okay. So, so they created their wallet, and they will now again, depends on the application, but they will now have a couple of screens

or buttons that will say one generally say send and one will say receive. And so if they hit the receive button, that will generate an address. And basically, what an address is, is basically somewhere to send your Bitcoin to. So again, going back to your example,

they bought 50 pounds worth of Bitcoin on coin for, and they want a good choice. Yeah, they have hashtag sponsors. So then they can open up Coinbase on their laptop or whatever, you know, whichever application they use is. And within within that, they'll have the option

to send to an external wallet. So when they go on to cut on to coin for, and they first send that exchange will ask for a receive address. So what you need to do basically is copy and paste the receive address from the mobile wallet that you just generated. The

address will look like a string of letters and numbers. So basically that that is the address where you would like where you'd want to withdraw those Bitcoin funding exchange into to that address, which is controlled by the wallet just created. And once they once

they get send, that will sort of be broadcast to the Bitcoin network. Magic happens. So again, I'm sure we'll get into that later. And they should see, well, they will see it almost instantly pop off to say, Oh, you've got 50 pounds worth of Bitcoin on its way to you. And then again,

depending on how busy the network is, then sometime will pass generally 10 minutes. That Bitcoin will then be sort of fully confirmed into their wallet. And then they are fully in control of all of that Bitcoin. And so again, going back to your initial, not your

keys, not your coin. Yeah, not your keys, not your coins comments. They are now fully in control of the Bitcoiners within that wallet. And because they are holding private keys to that Bitcoin, not 50 pounds. Okay, nobody can take that off them. And as long as they

keep those words safe and that phone safe, that's theirs. You know, essentially, it can't be that sounds that sounds easy enough. That sounds easy enough. And like anyone who is concerned about doing this a little bit scared, like I was definitely was scared about doing

this the first time I did it. And luckily, I had someone holding my hand and talking me through it. But essentially, all you're saying is that you download an app, you write down 12 to 24 words, you go on to coin floor if you bought from them, and you copy and

paste and address like an email address, press send. And there you are, you now control your Bitcoin, you now have full access and no one else can mess with it. And then how long did that take 10 minutes? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like I said, you'll see the transaction

almost instantly, then you just need to wait for a confirmation, basically, which is the network confirming that it's a real transaction, you know, it's it agreed with all the rules of the network. And then say, yeah, that's your Bitcoin, and enjoy us brilliant. So you're

now in full control of your Bitcoin. And what does that mean then? So you have £50 in your wallet. How's that different to keeping that money or keeping that Bitcoin on an exchange? What does that mean to you mean to the user? So essentially, if you've got Bitcoin on an

exchange, all you've got is an IOU. You've got you've got £50 worth of IOU on the coin floor accounts, essentially coin floor fully in control of that coin at that point. And again, I don't want to paint coin floor in a bad way to end, just talking about exchanges

in general. No, I agree with you. And any exchange, the best thing is to take your money off an exchange, because although coin floor are fantastic and I would trust them more than most exchanges, the whole point in this system is that you don't have to trust anyone. And that is how it is

different to the traditional system. So if you're going to use Bitcoin properly, you should hold your own keys. That is best practice. Yeah. And just to add a bit more weight to that, obviously, they've become less and less apparent, but in the past, there has been exchange hacks. So if

you've got your Bitcoin on an exchange, and that exchange is hacked, and they get their wallet drained of funds, essentially, you've just lost your Bitcoin. There are no refunds. There are no chargebacks. This is final, and which is, again, why it's so important that you control your own keys.

Yeah. Okay. So they've got their keys. And so they're now, they don't have to be concerned with an exchange getting hacked, or an exchange, you know, maybe they're insolvent, although coin floor does their insolvency reports, which I think they are the only exchange that does that to my knowledge.

But but still, you, you just have, you don't have to trust anyone, you have the full control. And does that mean then that now they can send send that Bitcoin to anyone, anywhere, or any time? And is there any restriction on it at all?

Not whatsoever. So it doesn't matter whether they're sending to their next door neighbor or to to somebody on the other side of the planet, who's a

an international descendant, who, who has got their war on half of their arrest. Again, probably not a good idea, but in terms of the Bitcoin network, there's nothing, absolutely nothing to stop in, then send it to whoever they want, whenever they want, basically.

So they have full control. Absolutely. And I think that's one of the most powerful things is, obviously, the stories all over the news on a weekly basis now, in terms of people getting bank accounts frozen and PayPal is a great example. You know, if you've got a business that

it's a good, that PayPal disagree with, for any reason whatsoever, they can just see all your funds and stuff, you know, and that could mean a business showing down, essentially. Yeah. And with Bitcoin, you've got none of that. You know, basically, it's a case of I can pay

whoever I want, I can receive from whoever I want, whenever I want, the only thing I need to consider is a small fee for the network's process from the transaction. That sounds pretty cool. So what if, say, you wanted to send a transaction, you've got your $50 and you want to send a transaction and, I don't know, someone really powerful,

that orange bloke over in the United States who runs their country, if he says, do you know what, number one priority is I don't want this person to be able to, for that transaction to continue, I want to stop it. And obviously, he could phone any bank, any payment system, PayPal,

banking, whatever, he can just stop that. Can you do that with Bitcoin or not? Like, if he's just, what all he wants to do, can he do it? No, basically, and unfortunately,

basically, as long as there is a minor willing to take that transaction fee and to include this person's transaction into a block, there's no stuff in it, basically. Okay. Obviously, there's some slight nuance around using your own node, which we make money later,

or perhaps another time. But essentially, from a network level, you wouldn't be able to stop it, again, which is one of the most powerful things about Bitcoin, is its censorship resistance.

In fact, the payments can't be stopped. So there's nothing else like it. That is something that's never existed as far as I'm aware. And I think when people actually make that first transaction, and then they realise that there was no money in the middle, they didn't have to ask for permission,

they didn't gain any authority, they didn't have to give up any, they didn't like to provide any idea, again, that a new answer around where you're going from, or in terms of making that transaction, no idea, no permission, it's completely up to the user.

Okay. And so they've written down these seed words, they now control everything, and now the wallet's popping up, and it's saying something about a pass phrase. What's this? Okay. So just to recap that the seed words, your 12 or 24 words, again,

which number of words it is just depends on the wallet application. They're both very secure methods of the story. So it likely be 12 or 24 words, as I say. A pass phrase is an optional extra word on top of this, which a user can sort of add on as an extra layer of security, basically.

So to use an example of the benefits of a pass phrase, let's say you write your 24 words down, and I let myself into your house, just when I see this bit of paper that's on your desk, and I think, oh, obviously, I know what these 24 words mean, I think, I'll pop that, I'll pop

that into my pocket. I can then go away, store those seed words into it, into a wallet. I'm up another mobile wallet, a desktop wallet, and I can steal all your funds, and you would, unless you saw me take that piece of paper, you would be on the wiser until you check your

open your app and all your bitcoins go on. So where the pass phrase comes into this is, again, using that example, I've just nicked your seed words back up, or you've got a pass phrase up, as well as that, which isn't written down. So that could be a common phrase that you

can remember, or that you've written down and kept separately on a separate bit of paper, or stamped into a piece of metal, or whatever process you choose. And as long as that's separate, with those, just those 24 words that I've stolen, I can't get access to any of your

bit less, don't need that extra word. So as long as you keep these two, you know, you see on your pass phrase or separately, it's basically an actual layer of security that allows the sort of prevents from theft of your prohibition.

That makes sense. It's, like you say, it just stops someone from finding those seed words and having them separate is obviously key, because otherwise if they find both together and they're both written on the same paper, it's pointless. But the whole point in having the 24 words

from what I can understand is just that you have the ability to, even if you lose your device, or whatever happens, you can always restore on another device, or in another wallet, no matter where you are in the world, you always have access to that Bitcoin. It effectively is

everywhere. But it's good to have that pass phrase as just an extra bit of security, because you do have to write the stuff down unless you have a good enough memory and you trust yourself to remember those words. Yeah, I probably would never advocate for that, I've read some

absolute horror stories on Twitter and whatnot, whether there's any truth in them, nobody knows, but yeah, please don't try and memorise as well as what you call it. It's a great idea. I don't even remember what day it is half the time, so I'm not going to be trying.

All right, so we've now got the Bitcoin on there. It's secure. They've got their 24 words. They've also got a pass phrase. They've kept the pass phrase separate to the seed words. Now, the other thing that we need to talk about is private keys. Everyone getting into Bitcoin

is always going to be asking, you know, it's always talked about, you know, it's private keys and public keys and all these different keys. But all we've talked about so far as a wallet, and I don't keep my keys in my wallet. I keep them on a key chain. So what are these keys about?

Yeah, so these keys, when you make a transaction using your wallet, and these keys are what's used to sign a transaction and to prove that you are the owner of the Bitcoin that you're trying to spend.

From a user perspective, you will almost, unless you're an advanced user, you will never interact directly with a private key. That's all been sort of hidden in the background under a fancy user interface that's created by whoever made this mobile or desktop wallet.

But essentially, these are, the private keys are sort of like a child of your seed words. The seed words are all that you will likely interact with in terms of the wallet and the private keys, like I say, are obfuscated away from you. Basically, that's what your wallet will use

to say, yeah, I own this Bitcoin. Here's the proof. I'm going to send it to this person, and here's the private key. Okay. It's kind of like an ID effectively. Yeah, yeah. It's proof of ownership and proof to the network that the Bitcoin that I'm trying to spend, I own it, and it abides by the rules of the network and it's okay to spend.

Okay. Without that key, you don't have access. It's like an ID or a key that only that grants you access to that Bitcoin, and without that, no chance. Yeah, exactly. I'm like I say, it's most users, unless you really go looking for it, you'll never see an actual private key.

It's all managed away from the user, really, which I think is a good thing because it makes it so fun. It makes deal with whatever it is, so much easier, yeah, much less likely to map or something else. Yeah, so presumably if somebody who gained access or they could

seed the private key, then they can gain access to the Bitcoin, so it's best that it is not shown unless you're an advanced user, basically. Yeah, yeah, it's, and you all it doesn't just have one private key. It has, well, it's capable of generating thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, if not

millions, but again, the usual never see that it's all done for them. Okay, and so what's the difference between a private key and a public key? So again, public keys generally are sort of obfuscated away from the user. Private key and a public key are sort of paired together.

One is to keep it as simple as possible. One is used to sign a transaction, which is the private key and the public key is the pair, which is shared when the transaction takes place, the public key is shared. So from this public key, here's the corresponding private key, I own both. This is my

Bitcoin. I'm allowed to spend it to this person. But again, again, the usual will not see this. It's all sort of the shiny US. Okay, and are there any other type of keys that we need to know about?

Unfortunately, yes, just to confuse matters. There's what's known as an extended public key. Okay. Now the likelihood is of all of the keys that are in a wallet, this is the one the user might interact with. So an extended public key, and a lot of people might hear them

called exports. This is essentially the master view into your wallet. It's allowed anybody with this export or extended public key can see all of the addresses within a wallet. It can't spend from them, but it can see them all. So this might be useful for services

where a user might need to generate more than one. They might share their extended public key. Now there are some privacy considerations in doing so. I could say if you were to share your wallets export with me, and although I could never ever steal any of your Bitcoin,

I could sit there, I could load it into a wallet and watch any transaction that you ever made with that wallet. So again, just to reiterate, I couldn't steal any of that Bitcoin, but I could see all of your transactions. Now, obviously, that might not be all dependent on

who you're transacting with and the nature of what your nature of your spends and receives. And so take our messages, just be mindful who you share your export with. Okay. So that makes sense. So we want to keep our seed words to ourselves. We want to keep our

passphrase to ourselves and we want to keep those two separately. We want to keep our keys to ourselves, except for potentially an ex-public key. And then you have to just be mindful about who you're sharing that information with. Because if you share that key with them, it's like giving

a key to the door, to a partner or a friend or family, just know that they can walk in and they can see all the shit in your house. So it's the same kind of idea. Yeah, exactly. And just to reiterate, because I know there's a lot of talk of keys here, is that private keys, public keys, and extended

public keys, 99% of people are just using Bitcoin, just the transaction they're not going to need to directly interact with any of them, just focus on those seed words and keep them safe. Yeah, fantastic. All right. And so you talked earlier about we're taking our Bitcoin off an exchange,

and we're sending it to our wallet, which we control. Now, and I said, oh, it sounds a bit like a email address. What is that? Is that called an address? And if so, what are these addresses and how are they made? Yeah, so, like I said, when you create your wallet, you get your seed for it,

your seed words, which we've talked about. And from those seed words, your wallet is capable of generating all of the keys that we just talked about. And then from those keys, it can then generate addresses. So an address is, again, one of the few things that we've spoken about so far that

are usable interact with directly. So you can think of this as a destination where you would send some Bitcoin to basically, and your wallet can produce an almost infinite number of addresses.

And it's a very good idea to never use the same one twice. And again, that sounds a bit cumbersome to worry about that. But again, most of the all of the wallets, the popular wallets now, if I was to send you some Bitcoin, it would be to the address that you shared with me. And once that

wants your wallet received to that first address, it will then hide that address from your view. You'll still be able to see all the Bitcoin that was sent to it. And you'll be able to easily receive to that address again, it will just be hidden away from you. And then the next time that

you want to receive next time you hit receive on that app, it will just show your brand new address. And all of these addresses that are generated, they're all still within the same wallet. And generally, the wallet will show you the total balance of all of the Bitcoin stores against any of the

addresses within that wallet. Okay, that makes sense. And that's just for privacy, is it? It is. Yeah. So, so address the use, as it's commonly referred to, is again, is using an address to receive Bitcoin in more than one transaction. That's generally seen as a bad idea for privacy,

like I say, because if I was to send you a million Sats, and then, so obviously, I know one of your addresses, because I've just sent that Bitcoin to you. Now, if you were to just repeatedly use that over and over again, because I know about address, I could watch this, I could invariably

watch that address on using what's known as a block explorer, which is basically like a directory. I can punch your wallet address, that wallet address in that I know. And I could watch any any transactions in or out from that single address. So I would know if you use that address to send

from or to receive to again, I would know, Oh, Max has received another two million Sats to that, to that address. So again, I would, I generally wouldn't know who sent it to you or who you're sending to. And what it might be a privacy consideration, that it's not a good idea to

for me to know my information about you. Okay, yeah, well, that makes sense. And the only concern that I guess some people might have there is so obviously, let's say that you've sent me £10 worth of Bitcoin. And I've received that and it's lovely. And then my wallet has now made me a

new address for the next person who's sending me some money. What if you felt really generous and you were like, Oh, do you know what? I want to send him another five quid. So you send another five pounds to the address that you previously had, because I haven't given you a new one,

you just thought, I'm just going to do it to be nice. Now, that still goes into their same wallet, does it? Absolutely. And you would still see it if you opened your app after I made the second transaction, you'd see the correct balance of both, the combined balance of both transactions.

That's good. Okay. And I could, I could do that as many times as I wanted to. And it would all go to you. Nobody, like I said, nobody takes that address away from you. It's just not a good idea to use it multiple times. You know, these addresses are free. They're almost infinite.

So it makes sense to never use the same ones. Okay. But they don't have to worry about those funds being lost, because they've got a new address. It's all generated from the same wallet. Yeah, it all comes back to that C phrase. As long as you've got that C phrase, you've got

custody of your book. Perfect. Okay. That makes sense. So they've got their mobile wallet, which I think I absolutely agree with you as the easiest way to start for anybody. Now, I understand that there are going to be different types of wallets, depending on

what you want from it, and also how much Bitcoin you have. So could you talk through the different types of wallets and why you might use them?

Yeah, so obviously we've covered at like mobile wallets, and we've also got desktop wallets, which is essentially exactly the same as everything that we've just spoken about, except it's one that runs on your computer, basically. So they'll generally have all

of the same functionality. It's just purely the fact that it sits on your computer. One word of caution, obviously computers are inherently virus prone, shall we say. So I would be wary about storing margin amounts of Bitcoin solely on a computer. Especially if that's Windows.

Exactly. Yeah, please don't use Windows. And if you do use Windows, please don't use a desktop wallet. Yeah. So moving on then, okay, the next thing that people will probably come across is hardware wallets. So a hardware wallet, again, it has all of the same functionality as that we've spoken

about, except it's the C-phrase and all the subsequent keys that we've spoken about are stored on a dedicated device. Generally speaking, these will look something like a USB drive, although some of them look a little bit like calculators these days in the case of a cold product. And this device

has got one sole purpose, and that is to keep your C-phrase and your keys safe and secure on a device that doesn't have any, you know, it doesn't have a solitaire on it, or it doesn't have an internet connection that might allow in some malicious software, which could essentially steal your Bitcoin.

So they're a focused piece of kit that has one sole purpose, and that's, again, keeping that Bitcoin safe. Now, obviously, there's lots of different types of these. Some of them actually still connect to a computer via a USB cable. Some of them interact with computers via micro SD cards,

and some of them now interact with mobile phones via Bluetooth. Again, so they've all got different pros and cons, but they all have the same sole purpose of being a dedicated device, and they just secure your keys. Okay. So they call them out. No, I was just going to say,

so what we've done up till this point is we've gone really down the sort of basic route of someone who's just started with Bitcoin, and I think most of you were starting with a small amount of Bitcoin starting with a phone wallet is more than good enough, and then a desktop wallet,

as long as you're not using Microsoft, again, is more than acceptable. But we're now talking about these hardware wallets, and for some of the listeners who maybe they've already got the phone wallet, and maybe they have now done some more digging, and they've looked at your website,

or they've listened to the podcast, and they've invested a little bit more, and they're thinking about looking at a hardware wallet. Do you have any suggestions if we just dig a little bit deeper, on the different types of hardware wallets and the pros and cons? Yeah, sure, so this can be

a bit of a minefield. The kind of de facto go-to hardware wallets for most new users will be ledger or Trezor, and these, like I say, the USB-ish-looking devices, they Trezor interacts with what's known as a web wallet, which I'm not a huge fan of, which is basically, I never actually use them,

so I apologize if I completely bought you this, but it's a website that you visit in your internet browser, and you put the Trezor into your computer, and then it allows you to do all of the things that we've spoken about, so construct transactions, receive, etc, etc, via your computer, and then

when it comes to if you want to spend, you hit a couple of buttons on the Trezor or the ledger, and that's to basically say, look, I'm authorizing this transaction, which is where the extra security comes in, is that you need that device to make that transaction without that device, you can't.

You will be able to make that spend, I suppose that's where the extra security comes in, and it's that little bit of extra peace of mind that somebody would have to steal this USB-looking device from wherever you keep in it, to make a transaction with your Bitcoin. So, and then we move slightly

up the scale, where you move into the realms of a cold card, so this was the one I was referring to, really, it looks a little bit like a calculator, and this is actually the one that I use, and the one that I would recommend most people use, although it does have a little bit of a steep

learning curve, it's designed to be never plugged into your computer, which is where it differentiates itself from the ledger and the Trezor. It essentially worked by generating your seed phrase and your keys completely offline, literally all you do is plug it into a power source,

you can then set the wallet up, you can generate everything on a device that has never been connected to anything else ever, which is where it's sort of gained its extra additional bit of security, really, because essentially, if your computer is malware-infected, and then you go and connect

your hardware wallet to it, there's a slight potential there that it's malicious software, it could leak its way into the hardware wallet, again, there hasn't been that many reports on this board, and that extra air gap is where it's known that the cold bar users, basically,

where there's air around it, it's never connected to anything, it just prevents that attack surface, so the way the cold bar works is, again, you create your transaction using a desktop wallet, most people use Electro, which, again, as all of the features that we've just spoken about,

but it sits on your desktop, keeping to notice that the keys, the private keys that are authorized to spend, are still on that cold card, so you can do whatever you like in Electro, but until you authorize the transaction on your cold card, nobody can spend that bit for right, so a quick rundown

of the cold card transaction, like I said, you know, the Electro desktop wallet, you would say, I want to spend, to this address, I want to send max £10, so that would create the transaction, which is known as an unsigned transaction, which is basically, it's the bare bones of a transaction,

it says, I want to send this from this address to max, this is the amount, this is the fee that I want to make, you can then save that to the SD card, pop that out of your computer, pop it into the cold card, you can then review your transaction, press OK to authorize it, pop the SD card back out of your

cold card, again, it's still not been connected to anything at all, up in power, you can then pop the SD card back into your computer, and then the transaction, which is now been signed and authorized by the cold card, you can then be picked up by the desktop wallet and then sent out to the

Bitcoin network and be made, and you would then receive your £10 with a Bitcoin, and I would be safe in the fact that knowing that I just signed an transaction with a device that's never touched anything other than a power source. Yeah, so it sounds like the safe way of doing things from

everything you've described from the beginning till now is to keep things in compartments away from each other. So you're sort of, you're not allowing your device that signs the transactions to touch the internet, and it's only actually touching your computer through this SD card,

and that your seed phrase is separate to your 24 word, or everything is kept separate. So if someone finds one thing, they can't access your money rather than it's all in one area, like your phone, for example, and you got your password written on a scrap of paper at the back of it,

then they have access to everything, but from what you've described, even if someone got hold of your phone and they got hold of your computer, they still can't access anything, and even if they then got your passphrase, but not your 24 words, or your 24 words, but not your passphrase,

they still can't access anything, and until they get hold of your calculator looking cold card that you may have hidden somewhere off site, they still can't access anything. Exactly, and I'd say these hardware wallets have local protections as well, so they've all got

pin codes on them as well, so even with physical access, an attacker would still need to break into the device and get access that way. So you could essentially not advocate for this, but you could leave your cold card with your private keys on it, on top of your desk, and

essentially it'd be very, very, very costly attack to try and steal a Bitcoin. You were talking hundreds of thousands of pounds to try and crack that. And presumably expert knowledge and specialised hardware. Exactly, yeah, your layman is not going to be able to do that,

not without significant funds and help. Yeah, and they could probably do all of that, spend all that money, and then they find that there's 30 quid on it. Exactly, yeah, there's no way you're telling whether it's actually worth it until you've spent all the money up front and gone through the big world of trying to crack it.

One thing I will add to this is that the standby, there's a lot of process here and a lot of steps for people to take, and one thing that I want to reiterate is the fact that this is one of the drawbacks, but one of the pills that people have to swallow in terms of taking control

of their own funds, and these extra layers of security that we're touching on here, that these are the steps that you have to take to, essentially, I'm not a fan of the term, but it describes it quite well, of beer and van conversely. This is the trade-off that comes with

having a money that comes with no trusted third parties. Again, you are the sole proprietor and control of that bitcoin, and there are certain steps that people need to take with the trustee, but to ensure the security of their bitcoin. Yeah, I think that's a really important point,

is that, yeah, it does sound like it's a bit of a pain in the arse, and that it does sound like there are some steps that you have to go through, and there is a bit of a steep learning curve, but it does give you so much power, it gives you so much control that is just not possible

with any other system on the planet, and to get that much power, sometimes you have to go through a little bit of hardship, and really it might sound complicated, but once you start digging in, it really isn't that hard. Most of these things are pretty simple to use, the user experience from

most of these mobile wallets, and most of the hardware wallets that I've used has been brilliant, and if someone just gives it a go, most of the time it will be easy, they won't have any problems, but if they do have problems, there's so many people that you can ask, and there's so many

different resources where you can dig through that you're not going to be left without getting it resolved. Definitely, now that's one thing I will add is that since I've started interacting more on Twitter, and I especially tell about this, there's so many people out there that are willing

to spend their own time to help out, and to walk you through, literally hold your hand in doing anything, you know, and it's older to anybody who should go out there, reach out and just ask for support, there's a wealth of knowledge out there, people are all too happy to support. Absolutely,

I mean, personally on the show I keep my my DMs open, I keep my email open, if anyone has any questions at all, just just ask, and it looks like it's the same for you on your website, if anyone has any questions you haven't asked us a question at the top right as well, so if anyone

has questions are they are they welcome to ask? Of course, of course, yeah, feel free, grab me telegram, Twitter, or again, follow up what you just said, follow the email link at the top of the site, and more than happy to help out, and like I said, you know, at the start of the show, it was

wasn't all that long ago that I was I was the confused new color, so I know exactly what it's feel, it feels like, and that's why I'm trying to sort of share as much of the basic knowledge, you know, I'm by no need an expert, and I'm still learning every day, but you're trying to put

out the simple stuff that most of the confuses, most beautiful commitments in the space really. No, it's brilliant, and like I said before, you're doing a great job of it, and I think just even with our conversation today, you know, we've gone through to a point where someone now controls

their keys, they have the option of using a phone wallet, one on their computer or a hardware wallet, we've gone through what are the best hardware wallets, and I agree with you, coldcard, to me, seems like by far the best, and you know, they're already now at a stage where they are so much

more secure than almost any other system, they have more control than you can get with anything else on the planet, and realistically, they can do this in what? Half a day, a day from start to finish, even if they're not particularly techie? Oh, easy, easily, yeah, like I say, you know, the

the on-ramps are getting easier, and unfortunately, not so much for KOSE ones or they are, the not KOSE ones should I say, although they are coming out, but you know, you could go from zero to controlling your own keys and have it in 50 kilos worth, or even 10 kilos worth of Bitcoin

in your own wallet in a couple of hours, easily. That's amazing. And I think, I would urge people to do that, and like I say, even if it's just a couple of quid, is do that, I made that first transaction because it kind of all clicks together a little bit when you see it happening in front of

your eyes, and that's when you kind of you get hooked and you start to see the power and then of what this network can do, and then you want to do people really understand the more technical stuff. Yeah, so for the people who are listening and maybe they've already done the things that

we've talked about, maybe they've already taken those steps. There are a couple of other options. Can you talk me through the other options like a multi-sig, what's the difference between a custodial wallet and a non-custodial wallet, and some of the other differences for people who

have already got to the stage we have discussed up to this point? Okay, so yeah, I'll cover up the Kustodial ones first because we've kind of already covered that. So, a Kustodial wallet is essentially the coin floor situation that we spoke about earlier. So, you bought 10 pounds

with Bitcoin, it sat on that exchange. So, essentially, you bought that Bitcoin, but you are not the Kustodial wallet. Now, on the flip side of that, a non-custodial wallet is the second bit that we described. So, that is, you know, you download your mobile wallet and you draw a map of the exchange

into a wallet where you control the private keys, the seed phrase, or all the keys that we spoke about. And so, that is a non-custodial wallet, and that is where I would urge everybody who's listening to this, to get to, to use that wallet where you control the keys. And if you're not sure

which one you've got, just ask yourself a question, have I written down my seed words? If you haven't, the likelihood is that you have a Kustodial wallet and you are not in control of those keys, and what if you did, and you've got that stored safe, then you have a non-custodial wallet and

you are, in my opinion, using Bitcoin the right way, the way as intended. And moving on to, you mentioned multi-sig earlier. And this is not something that I would recommend for most new users.

Again, we spoke earlier about keys, private keys. So, a multi-sig wallet is basically a number of wallets sort of clustered together. So, multi-sig can take many shapes and sizes. So, the most common one, I suppose, is what's known as a two of three. So, what that means is there are three wallets

participating collectively and to create a single wallet. To spend from that wallet, they would need two out of the three people sign in transaction, so participating effectively and to spend. So, again, not applicable for most new users. You know, if you've got, I'd probably say, go to a couple

of a thousand pounds worth of Bitcoin. A single signature wallet like a cold guard or the mobile, even the mobile wallet that we talked about earlier, is going to be sufficient. When you start getting into the rounds of multi-sig, it comes with a lot more complexity.

Obviously, with that complexity comes, particularly for people who don't know what they're doing. Just to put that into perspective, my Bitcoin stash, other speakers, is not that large, should I say, at all. And I've been in the space for two years, and even I

wouldn't feel comfortable creating a multi-sig. I just wear the spaces out currently. I feel like it's just added too much complexity for my situation. And I'm probably more at risk of losing my funds than I am of gaining the extra security that a multi-sig wallet would give me. I suppose

I kind of missed one of the main powers of multi-sig, obviously. If I was to create one for myself, again, using the two of three example, what I could do is once I've created the wallet is, let's say, I've used three hardware wallets, I could store them in three completely separate

locations in three separate corners of the globe if I wanted to. And obviously, if an attacker wanted to steal my Bitcoin, they would need to get two of those wallets to create a transaction.

So if I've got one, if I've got one of the three stored in London, I've got the second one stored in New York, and the third is in Thailand, then that's going to be a pretty expensive attack for somebody to come and mug me in London, and then fly me all the way out to Thailand to get the

second key to create that transaction to steal our Bitcoin. So it does add a lot of extra security, but again, I would warn new users coming in with that security comes a lot of complexity and how much risk should I say. So for most people, again, single-sick is more than secure enough. Yeah,

there are options out there for multi-sick, like caravan and all these different, and I think Casa and other companies are making things easier. But I agree with you, it's not something I feel comfortable with either maybe a little bit further down the line. I'd like to try it, but

it's baby steps, isn't it? Do something, get comfortable with it, and then reassess once you're comfortable, and don't push yourself too far where you don't feel comfortable, because that's where mistakes are going to happen. Yeah, completely agree. Like I say, I just don't think

the user experience with multi-sick is quite there. Yeah, I think it will be in a couple of years, and it probably will become a standard for, like I say, which is not there, so try it carefully, if you're going to delve into multi-sick right now. Yeah, so is there anything else for listeners who

are, have set up their wallet or looking to set up their wallet, anything else you feel they need to know anything that they're going to see and not be sure about after this conversation?

Yeah, so obviously when they're creating a transaction, they've gone through the process we've just spoken about, they've got some Bitcoin in their wallet, and they want to send that to somebody else, and they're going to have to, when they make that transaction, decide on a fee to use.

So the fee is compensated by some participants in the network, known as miners, who are essentially their transaction processes, so they're the ones who oversee your fee, process your transaction in a trust-free way to make sure that it gets your recipient. Now, obviously, the fee network,

you can use whatever fee you'd like from what's known as wants and so she's got a bite, which is essentially the lowest of the low fee that you want to use or to know what will limit basically. Again, most of the wallets these days will give you an estimation of the fee that you

want to use, and they'll say this will give it to you in block time, which again is a network term, one block is if you use the average of that fee, 10 minutes, but again, a lot of these wallets now will give you an actual time as well, so it'll say confirmed in 20 minutes for this fee,

and then they'll either have a slider or a text box where you can edit to increase that fee or decrease that fee based on how urgent your transaction is. So what I would urge people to say is a lot of people overpay on fees because they're used to going into Starbucks and tapping their car

on the machine. It happens instantly and they can walk away with that I'd say. Obviously, because I accepted a Starbucks or used an example, if you're just paying a friend back for dinner or something like that, is it really essential that that transaction gets there in the next block, so within 10 minutes? Depends on the friend.

Some are quite asked. Very good point. Yeah, so always say is if your transaction is not urgent, I would urge you to lower that fee and set yourself some stats because at the end of the day, the less you've been pleased, the more Bitcoin you'll be left with after that transaction.

Yeah, that makes sense. And so the way I've tried to explain it to people before is kind of like the postal service, like you're sending your Bitcoin to another address, and you can choose if you go for cheap, cheap, cheap, but it's going to take a little bit longer. It's going to get there,

but it's going to take a little bit longer, or you go for paying more money, and it's next day at a certain time sign for it. It's that kind of idea of how important is it that it gets there soon, and I kind of feel for people who aren't involved in Bitcoin. That's the closest I can find as a

comparison. Yeah, I think that's a good example. The one I like to use is it's, I like to call it a fee market. And so basically people are bidding at the same time as you are by making a transaction and setting their fee, they're bidding to kind of get their transaction ahead of you, so to speak.

Obviously, you wouldn't see that as a user perspective, but basically, like in an auction, the more you bid, the more likely you are to be picked to be in the next block and get your transaction confirmed quicker. Yeah, but no matter how you were talking about one set per buy,

if they do sell it at one set per buy, if they're just sending it, say, from their phone wallet, and now they bought a hardware wallet and they're sending it there, and they're not going to spend that Bitcoin. That's for their savings, and they plan to keep it for 10 years. It doesn't really

matter how long it takes as long as it gets there. That situation where you just described it is exactly where it pays to be a cheap scheme. If you're applying to hold that for any number of years, then what's the rush? There's no risk that the transaction is going to get lost. Even if it takes,

let's say that the network's really busy, and you do use low fee. In extreme cases, there may be a time where it may take a day or two. Again, I'm using the extremes here, but like you're saying, the network is building such a way that that transaction will get mined eventually and confirmed,

but again, it's just about the market dynamics, the fee you use and how busy the network gets, but yeah, it's going to be harder to use a low fee. You say some sounds. Yeah, definitely. I guess that's the difference between that and the Postal Service is, like you

say, it will get there. It's not like you have any worry of it not getting there. You've sent it or get there. It just takes a certain amount of time. Okay, well, look, I think that's been a really good rundown for people, especially people who are sort of new to getting into Bitcoin

and helps explain all of this stuff, which certainly I found confusing when I first started, and then I'm sure lots of people do. Thank you for doing that. But before you go, I would really like to just ask you a couple of questions and dig a little bit deeper about why you're here,

because you're on this call with me. You have set up this website. All this stuff that you're researching, all this stuff that you're doing takes an enormous amount of time. And like you said before, you already have a fiat job. You're a busy guy. You've got a puppy. Why'd you care so much?

Like I said earlier, I came in for a number of a walk and I pulled my hands off. I thought, you know, I came coming into this space thinking, I'm going to get rich. This is great. You know, I'm going to be able to retire in 10 years, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then

I got really sort of hooked into the more of the technical aspect, as well as the censorship resistance and the power that it gives to anybody that wants to participate in the network. You know, it doesn't discriminate against anybody. It doesn't censor against anybody. It just is. And, you know,

it's there if you want it and it doesn't care if you don't want it. Going back to the technical aspect, which is probably the main thing that kind of poking in really is obviously we kept it quite basic today. But the more that you scratch, the deeper you want to go, especially if you're

into the more technical aspect, it's just the case of China will understand this thing. There's so many different facets to it. You know, wallets, nodes, coin join, lightning, and that's what's all that sort of stuff is what's got me poking in China, back my head around it. I suppose that's

why I try to be as helpful as I can because it's a way to help myself better understand the network and how it works. I spend far, far too much time on Telegram in the I know group in the Samurai chat. I'm trying to help people. And again, I touched on it earlier. You know, I'm buying

absolutely no means an expert, but one of the things that's helped me learn so much in the last six to 12 months is spending time in those groups and trying to help other people overcome problems and fix issues. You know, and if I don't know an answer to a question, you know, I'll make no

bones about it. The fact that I would go and search back through the chat to try and find somebody use a similar answer, sorry, a similar problem and see if somebody's spoken about fix to it. And then I just kind of picked stuff up along the way and found it kind of

quickly really in terms of trying to help people. And, you know, it felt really good when somebody's having a really head scratching problem with a wallet that they can't fix. And then, you know, if you can, if I can help them, it would have come like, you know, it feels good. And I suppose

that's what's helped me learn and kept me coming back really. And it doesn't really show any signs of slowing down. It's a case of, I think we touched on it earlier. Last time we spoke is, it's kind of taken over my, any free time that I have got in terms of podcasts, reading about it,

sitting on Twitter, sitting on television, helping people out, you know, or now, like you say, doing podcasts, it's, yeah, I think the technical base, what kind of gets me in trying to understand the aspect of the network? Well, it's never ending, isn't it? Like, as soon as you wrap your head around

one concept or one idea or one bit of tech, then there is another three pop up. And I think even if you dedicated every waking hour to understanding Bitcoin and everything around it, no one can.

It's, and that's kind of what keeps, that's kind of what keeps us so interesting, is that it is just an infinite rabbit hole. And there's always something new to learn. There's always something where you can get better at one aspect or another. And, you know, I've not come across anything else like

that in life. Yeah, and just when you think that you get somewhere, somebody will announce a new app or a new improvement proposal, or a new scaling solution, and then you're like, right, okay, I've got to go and wrap my head around that now as well. And it's, I suppose it's like any

new emerging technology, it's, it's forever changing on an almost daily basis, really. And if it, if it continues to do what it's doing, and we continue to see this pace of innovation, what do you think's going to happen? Do you have some sort of thought on what's going to happen in the future? And, you know, is it, is it going to

become more obvious to more people that this is a better system? Or are we just like a small bunch of lunatics who spend our time on this and on Twitter and think it's brilliant, but, but no one else is ever going to give a shit? Like, do you have any thoughts on that?

Yeah, do you know what, obviously, there's a lot of people that think, you know, it's going to be become the world's currency in five years, and I don't really share that thought process. I think it definitely gained a lot of traction, but I think it takes a lot longer than most people

expect, and I think, yeah, I think it's going to be a long road, and this, this, for all, you know, I sort of waxed where I've been going, how great it is, I'm just going to have people like that.

There's still lots of things to improve on, particularly from the privacy perspective, and I just think that that's going to take quite a long time to fix before, before the normies come, so to speak. It's, it's, we're getting there slowly, I say, we, you know,

I'm not a developer, obviously, I'm just trying to help out with the basics, but there's, you know, there's hundreds of people working on this stuff day in, day out, and I'm making great progress, but we've, I just got the feeling we've got a long way to go, so, you know, much like yourself,

hoping to just play a small part in that, pushing it forward. Yeah, I mean, that's what we can do is just help others, explain the stuff, and then push it forward, but, you know, the people behind the scenes who are working on, you know, I'm hopefully a couple

weeks from now going to have Chris Belcher on to talk about coin swap and some of these other privacy technologies that are being built, and I don't know about you, but for me, it just makes me so, so much more confident when you've got these type of people building this

amazing technology, and although it's not something I can do myself, just being part of it along for the ride is just so exciting. Yeah, completely agree, you know, you mentioned Chris Belcher there, and obviously there's loads of devs and people like the Samurai team and everybody that's developing

wallets, etc, and all the node teams, they're the real heroes of bringing this slowly, but surely, to the masses and making it easier to use, easier to interact with and more palatable for the people who are, who may not even know what Bitcoin is right now. And I guess the idea is that,

you know, one day we get to that point where it's all abstracted away and all someone has to do is download an application, press send, and all the privacy and everything else is all just done in the background, and they don't even know, and that's where I think mass adoption can really happen,

and you know, we are all way off from it, but do you feel we're heading in the right direction? Yeah, definitely, you know, I'm very optimistic about the future, and interacting with all the people I've just mentioned on a daily basis is what inspires me with confidence to know that,

you know, hopefully, I think, not hopefully, I'm confident it will change the world one day, but I'm just wary that, you know, there's a lot of hype and, and then we'll go up crowd on Twitter that think it's going to happen tomorrow. So I just, and anybody that I try and bring on board

into this, I just try and manage the expectations and be open and honest about the tradeoffs and the extra steps that you might have to take compared with what they're used to, and the extra responsibility, you know, everything we've just touched on basically, it's about understanding

the risk and, you know, about famous words, nuance, tradeoffs, it's everywhere, isn't it? Yeah, it is, and I much prefer when people take that approach, and they are realistic and reasonable about things, because there's no point in hyping people up. I mean, I always do a similar thing,

I'll say to people, buy a little bit, learn how to use it, but when are we going to be at a time where there's hype and bit colonization, and there's all this stuff that we talk about, I don't know, could be 10 years, could be 20, could be 30, no one really knows, but it's not, it's not happening

tomorrow, but as long as we're on that path, as long as things continue, like they are, to my mind, it is inevitable that it's going to happen at some point, and I believe in my lifetime.

Yeah, I completely agree, I think, well, I hope it's in my lifetime, you know, I dedicate a lot of time to learning about it, so I'd like to see it really, really succeed, you know, I think it's already succeeded compared to, obviously, the origin of the network and where we're at today,

you know, we're sort of, it's come such a long way, obviously, it's still a long way to go, but I think it is already a success. Oh, 100% of the ability to where, where it started, and what, what the depth of achieved is just astonishing. Awesome, well, it's been amazing having you on,

I really hope we can do this again, obviously we focused on one thing very specifically, but I think it was really, really helpful, and it will be something that I can point people to and say that you want to know about what let's go here. Thank you for all the work you're doing,

thank you for putting up the website, and helping newcomers understand this technology better. I truly believe it can change the world, it sounds like you do as well, so it's really important that people like you are there and banging the drum. Is there anything that we haven't covered

that you wanted to go through? Yeah, so a dream, something that you popped into my head is obviously we've talked a lot about the the theory of what all it is and what it contains, everything, we haven't actually said given anybody any recommendations. Yeah, good point, well done.

So you should be doing, you should be doing this instead of me. So what I will say is, first and foremost is, I've got a mobile wallet comparison chart on my website, so you should probably send a link if you want to. I'll put it in the show notes, yeah.

And that sort of compares all the common ones, it compares their features and sort of lists any trade-offs, what they're good at, what they're not so good at, and put in terms of practical here and now advice for somebody from the website, I would say, for the more privacy-focused

user, a samurai wallet, for me, you're in hands-down, they are leaps and bounds above the rest, but for somebody who who simply wants absolute pure simplicity and speed of, you know, I just want to get a wallet, I want to call me a keys, plain and simple, I don't want any bells and whistles,

a blue wallet is also a great option. Okay, really nice simple UX, but yeah, if I have the big one, samurai hands-down, okay, the team there, fantastic, and what they've achieved is just is awesome, so. Those two would be, sorry, Maxwell. No, I was just gonna say, as far as I'm aware,

samurai is only on Android and not on iOS, is that right? Very good point, so if you're an iOS user, I would say, okay, so yeah, so if you're, if you're Android, I don't think it's even a question, really, if you're an Android, go and download samurai, it's brilliant, it's so good, and it's

really easy to use as well, I absolutely love that wallet, and you're saying if you're iOS, it would just be blue wallet, yeah? Yeah, yeah, it's got the perfection for your iPhone and new people, but it's very easy to use. Okay, and yeah, if you can, well, I've got the link here anyway,

so I'll add it into the show notes, and for anyone who is listening, definitely go and check out the website, it's absolutely brilliant, and it goes into wallets and much, much more. Yeah, appreciate you, Shilina, it's been a pleasure, thank you very much. Brilliant, all right, and like I said,

I hope we do it again, and yeah, absolutely, pleasure speaking to you. All right, cheers, speak soon.