EP48 Bitcoin podcast with Gigi the author of 21Lessons

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Welcome back to Bit by BitEveryone. There's a few changes going forward. Firstly, I won't be doing the editing. It's just taking too much time. I don't then have that time to do all the research I want to do.

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and making sure the hums and ars are taken out and the audio quality is the best it can possibly be. I hope it will still be acceptable, and I also want to say thank you to my sponsor Coin Floor for allowing me to buy my new microphone, which hopefully you will be hearing is a better quality.

And thank you for all the guests who have appeared on here, and today's guest, the amazing G.G. Hi, G.G. Can you hear me? I can hear you left. Yeah, I can hear you perfectly well. How's it going?

Yeah, really good. Thank you. Really good. Just settled in, got my glass of wine, and looking forward to chatting to you. It's been too long, actually. I read your book quite a long time ago, and it's a classic.

It's got some great stuff in there, and I've been following you on Twitter for a while. We've been courting each other, teasing each other, but now we get to sit down and speak to you. So how are you?

Yeah, I'm great, actually. A little bit under the weather, but I think I just slept too little and worked too much the last two weeks or so. Got myself involved in too many bit kind things.

You know, as it is, there's only so many blocks in a day and so many things to do. It is a bit like that, isn't it? It's crazy, like the way that it captures you and the way that you end up just spending so much time on this stuff.

And every time, I don't know if it's the same with you, like every time you set a goal and then you say, "Ah, once that's done, like, you know, then I'm going to take a little bit of time just to relax and chill."

And then there's always something else just on the horizon. There's always something else you have to dive into. Yeah, absolutely. And it's very hard to just lean back and relax, I think, in these times when the world is in this array and also in the Bitcoin world.

You know, I've said this a bunch of times, but it's really true that every single day I wake up and I'm more bullish than I was the day before and every single day I think that it can't continue, you know?

Like, my brain will implode or something if I continue to become more bullish. And I'm not sure if you opened up Twitter in the last couple of hours, but Square just announced that they are moving towards a corporate Bitcoin standard now and just bought 50 million, like 50 million U.S. dollars worth of Bitcoin and a public update.

So, following Giga Chat, Michael Saylor. And, you know, like, we are, like, Bitcoinization and hyper-iconization is not only happening, we're in it right now and it's really, yeah, it's hard to just sleep for a seven, eight hours a night if you realize what's going on in the world.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it is crazy seeing this sort of stuff happening, but then it's also not crazy because, you know, when you do fall down the rabbit hole and you do get to the point, like you're saying, you get to a point where you're like, I can't be more bullish.

There's no way. And then you do, you wake up more bullish and these are the sort of days where I feel like that. These are the days where, you know, I see these sort of things happening and you know it's going to happen.

You know, you look at it and you just think logically, like, okay, these guys are not stupid. They're going to want to have this on their balance sheets. They're going to get involved at some point.

You don't know when and it definitely feels like it. For now, it feels like some of these big players are going to start stepping in and over the next sort of 18 months to two years, I think it's going to be just mind-blowing what's going to happen.

But I have to say, like, I looked at that 50 million stack and there was like two parts of me. One was like, okay, great, that's amazing. 50 million and he's just stats. And the other part was like, come on, Jack, you can do better than that.

I want to see more from you. Yeah, I think, you know, some people are already giving him shit. How small of a stack that is. It's weak, isn't it? 50 mil. Yeah, so, you know, as Bitcoiners usually do, you try to motivate each other to buy even more of Bitcoin.

So, you know, Jack really should start cutting his own hair and just... No chairs. Yeah, exactly, sell all his chairs and get into Bitcoin even more. Yeah, no, but it's insane to bullish.

And it's just weird kind of if like... All of that was theory like two or three years ago, you know? Like people were talking about it in theory. This could happen. There will be a speculative attack on Bitcoin.

It will suck in companies. It will suck in nation states. There will be people just living off Bitcoin, moving to a Bitcoin standard and so on. And just seeing it unfold now, I'm having a really hard...

I'm having really a hard time to kind of stay calm because it's obviously happening right now. And still, nobody is aware of it. Like, you know, in my mind Bitcoin Twitter, it's like 200 people across the world.

That's pretty much it, you know? Like, I mean, I mean 200 people are the ones that are allowed. So, if we take like 1% posters, 99% Lucas Rule, it's still, you know? It's still such a small number of people.

It's laughable. Like, I know you talked about this in the past. You're like quote-unquote regular circle of friends. You're having a hard time convincing them of Bitcoin and even talking to them about it and also your family and stuff like that.

And it's, you know, I think it's the same for most Bitcoiners. Like, you're the one crazy guy. You're the one crazy person still, you know? Like, still, even with all the shit that's going on, you're still kind of seen as the outlier.

And you kind of have to be a crazy person. I mean, you know, it's not as bad as it used to be. That you have to be an anarcho capitalist cypherpunk doing Bitcoin. I mean, there are more quote-unquote normal people in Bitcoin now.

But still, all of the people that are glued to Bitcoin Twitter and that are really in the know, I think all of them are outliers in some form or another. And we haven't seen anything yet.

So all of it is, it's really crazy to think about it because I think we're at the, yeah, I don't know. I think it's going to be crazy this bull run. And I think also that these kind of cycles, the cyclical nature will continue.

And I think we just haven't seen anything yet. Oh, yeah. I agree with you. And, you know, you're talking about this speculative attack and this being theory. And, you know, Pierre has been talking about this and a few people have been talking about this for some time, but it definitely feels that way.

And it definitely gets to a point where you do see what's going on in the world. And, you know, you're saying how difficult it is to get people to wrap their head around this, actually changing the world.

In the last two months-ish, more people have been open to discussing things with me. People who were laughing at me a year and a half ago, smart guys, like, you know, in their own right, very smart people were just taking the piss at me.

And now they're coming around there. They're saying, "Ah, yeah, kind of see your point. Like, the world is a bit fucked." Like, you know, what's all this that's going on with, you know, the financial system and all this COVID stuff?

And governments do seem like they're a bit mental and crazy and like, "Yeah, I can kind of..." And so it kind of feels like it's accelerating things and that more people are opening their eyes.

And then you have this kind of stuff where, you know, you have Square stepping in and Sailor stepping in and people are like that, and they will listen to that. They'll go, "Okay, well, you know, maybe these guys know what they're doing."

And I think it could get really crazy very quickly. Do you have a sort of idea where something will happen and you'll be like, "That's the one." Or are you sort of in the mindset that, "Okay, this is going to keep trickling.

Things are just going to happen bit by bit." And there's not going to be like one major thing. Like, for example, like, if a country just came out and said, "Yeah, we're stacking." Like, you know what I mean?

Like, is there something like that with it? You would just be like, "Right, I definitely can't sleep now. I'm absolutely all in. I'm selling my kidneys." Yeah, you know, like, I already did that.

So I'm kind of on the sidelines anyway. Like, I've like no dry powder since years or so. So, yeah, that is selling the kidneys in the past for me. But to answer your question, I think it will take time until a nation state will come in.

It might be the next cycle, not this one. I would be really surprised if it's going to be soon. Like, I said last year that it's going to be nine years until something that approximates hypopeconization to happen, because that would be three more halvings.

And as we know, it takes a little while for the halving to play out. So, yeah, I would say like 20, 28, 20, 29 is that would be an interesting time horizon. I think it's really hard in the current environment to make any predictions.

You know, like the world could end. Next election. Next US election. And literally, like it looks in the US, it looks like no matter who wins, the other 50% of the population, which has not accepted.

And, you know, like, I wouldn't be surprised if a civil war breaks out over the election in any case. Like, it doesn't matter if it's a landslide. It doesn't matter if it's like a very close election.

Like, nobody will accept whatever the outcome of the election is. And that's not a good state to be in. And the US is still kind of, you know, in power in terms of the world, power of the world.

And so, things can get really ugly, I think. But still, in the Bitcoin world, all of that doesn't really matter. And the only thing that matters is that the system itself doesn't change. And I think we are past the point in the Bitcoin world where any meaningful change can happen or any meaningful disruption to the system will happen.

And I say that with a grain of salt because, of course, you know, they're always unknown unknowns, like, something weird in the cryptography could happen. But still, you know, we are very close to moving to Schnorr, for example, and Schnorr is very well understood and mathematically proven to be secure.

And so, you know, it would have to be something really crazy. But still, you know, like, I think Bitcoin is so insanely resilient, it boggles the mind. Bitcoin will march on and I think it will be a continual trickle.

But I think also, since there is just no Bitcoin to go around, like, you know, there's so many people that, and many people have said that, you know, like, I'm not selling my Bitcoin. My kids are going to get my Bitcoin.

Like, I'm happy with my life and what I have. I don't need to buy Lambo's or what have you. So it doesn't matter how high the price goes. I'm like, you're not getting my Bitcoin. That's pretty much it.

And there are many people with quote unquote "soul" in the game. And so they're really not too many Bitcoin to go around. And obviously, you know, treat yourself from time to time. And if you think it's the right thing to do, buy a house with, like, 1% of your stack or whatever.

But it's interesting. I think that's also what happened in the last cycles. And I think it will continue to happen. That your conviction is really important in terms of how strong you're holding this asset.

Because what we saw over and over and over again, if people come in. And I believe this will also be true for companies, you know. Like, that's why I think Michael Saylor is such an absolutely gigantic giga chat.

Like, you know, he's basically saying we make enough money every month. We don't have to sell ever. So we're holding Bitcoin, like 1% of the Bitcoins apply for the next 100 years. Like, no matter what happens.

Like, he's not selling, period. And I think there won't be many people like him. I think most companies will just, you know, allocate whatever seems meaningful and, like, quote-unquote, risk-free to them and they will allocate it as part of their cash balance allocated in Bitcoin might be like 1% or 5% or 10% and what have you.

And if Bitcoin drops 50%, then they're going to move to another asset. You know, I think that's what usually happens. And I think also for just individuals, that's what usually happens. If you don't really know what you're getting into and you don't really know how money works,

you don't really know how Bitcoin works, then you're bound to sell. Like, if something crazy happens, you're bound to sell. And you're also bound to sell if something, if some other stupid thing happens, you know, like, if another scam pops up and other people are making, like, 500% returns every month

because, you know, they're farming yams or something. Then you might think, you know, that's a better deal. And you move to that. And then you lose all your money. And we see this over and over again.

So, and I agree with what you said before, I think that just general trust in the system, like trusting governments and so on, also in relation to the corona response and other things, I think general trust is at an all-time low.

But I still think that Bitcoin understanding in the general population is still at an all-time low. And understanding of money, I think it's even worse. You know, like, I think some people know a little bit about Bitcoin, but still have no idea how money works.

And I think all, all shit corners are in that category. They know how Bitcoin works, they know how it works from the technical side. They have no idea what it is, they have no idea what money is.

Like, they have no idea how money works and how money evolved, what the important properties of money are. And all of that is important that you're a guy that says, like, okay, I'm going all in Bitcoin, and I'm just not selling for the next hundred years.

Yeah, you make a good point. And definitely, like, especially when I was reading through your book and you have the economics chapter and you're going through, like, yeah, financial ignorance.

It just highlights that, you know, certainly for me, since getting involved with Bitcoin, the people who, especially quite often, the people who think they know the most about money know the least.

So, like, a lot of people who will bang on and on about money and how they're investing and how they've got, you know, a degree in this, that, and the other. And you sort of find out that really they know a lot of words and they know how to sound intelligent, but they know nothing about money.

And it's really interesting that you speak to a hundred people. You'll maybe speak to one or two who will really get a grasp on things. And even that one or two, if you then pitching Bitcoin to them, they won't come round to it unless they spend sort of six months to a year, maybe even longer,

and they have to be bothered to do the research. Like, it's not like you can just pick up one book and understand it at the end of it. Like, this is something that takes an incredible amount of time and you have to be quite sad and weird to bother to do it.

And I'm glad that it is that way because otherwise there wouldn't be the upside for people who are interested. You know, the Bitcoin Twitter group and there wouldn't be this upside because everyone would be buying it.

They would have bought it as soon as they heard about it. But getting that message across to people is so difficult. I mean, how do you, you know, obviously you've done an amazing job in your book, but I still don't feel you can give one book or give one, you know, have one conversation,

no matter how smart someone is, they just cannot get round to it. So in your opinion, do you feel it's almost like it has to be the normal for a lot of people. Once their friends or family or neighbors or boss or whoever it is is treating Bitcoin like it's normal.

It's normal to have this on your balance sheet. It's normal to have a percentage allocated. It's normal to be using it. It's normal to be storing it. Then they'll come in. Hmm. Yeah, I...

It's such a tough question. There's so much in there to unpack. I think it has to become normal just like, you know, the internet and Wi-Fi and having a smartphone is normal today. You know, the first reaction to smartphones was nobody needs it.

Why should I get a smartphone? That was the first reaction of everybody, of absolutely everybody. Everyone was saying that for years, you know, even when the iPhone came out. Like, why would I need that? Like, I just need the phone. I just need the texting and so on.

And obviously all those people were wrong. It was just not easy to see how wrong they were. And it's the same as for Bitcoin. Like, if your money works, if, you know, it's so different. Like, it's so difficult to talk about it because the situations of people are so different.

And I'm currently working on my second book and I basically... I love the phrase Bitcoin is different things to different people. And the book will be called 21 Ways and the long title is 21 Ways to Look at Bitcoin.

So I'll try to condense it down and look at Bitcoin through 21 lenses, so to speak. And it's so profoundly true that Bitcoin is different things to different people. Because if you are from Venezuela or some other countries suffering from hyperinflation or drastic inflation,

you don't need Bitcoin explained, you know, like you immediately get it. If you are working in an industry where your transactions are censored all the time, like if you're even if it's legal, you know, if you're a sex worker or if you're dealing with part in even in jurisdictions where it's legal or with other drugs

that are prohibited in other jurisdictions or have a bad name, then you immediately know how valuable Bitcoin is and what to do with it. And, you know, it's our perceptions work in a tool-driven way.

You look at something and you only understand it if you know what to do with it. And most people look at Bitcoin and they have no idea what to do with it. And for most people in the Western world, it's a speculative asset.

That's what it is. But Bitcoin is so much more. And most people don't look at it in the right way, I think. So it becoming normal is a good thing. And I think it will happen. Maybe who knows, in four or five years or something like that, at least in 10 years, it will happen that it will just be part of a regular,

you know, diversified investment portfolio and part of a pension fund, for example, and stuff like that. Like if we continue, like if Bitcoiners continue to be right about the thesis, then this is bound to happen because it was the best performing asset of the last 10 years.

If we write about it, it will continue to be the best performing asset in U.S. dollar terms for the next 10 years. So it only makes sense that all of this is going to happen. The problem I see with it is if all of this happens in the background and if Bitcoin isn't properly understood, then the power again doesn't end up at the people.

You know, like if, for example, the financial infrastructure, a lot of people talk about, and I really like that idea, you know, like the infrastructure inversion, like we saw with the internet.

There are so many things that are still bound to happen, and I'm just waiting for them to happen. And one of them is what I call the voice of IP moment for Bitcoin. So everyone used the telephone all the time, and then the internet came along and people didn't really understand what the internet was,

and why do I need a home page, why do I need an email address? You know, if you have a fax machine, the mail works properly and everything. I mean, watching all the old videos of people discussing the internet and what it is, it's so great.

But there was a point in time where it was just cheaper and better to root all the phone lines over the internet, and that's where voice of IP was born. And most people don't know, didn't know, and didn't care.

They just got a new phone, and everything worked the same as before. It worked a little bit better. You know, like the calls won't drop, the quality was a bit better, and so on and so forth.

And I can see that happening in the financial world as well. You know, like everything is settled on the Bitcoin network. You get rid of Swift, you get rid of everything else that connects the banks together, and everything just works over the Bitcoin network.

And the benefit of that is a huge one in terms of, you know, it's more efficient, it's cheaper, it's more secure, and so on and forth. But I still think it's not necessarily the best outcome.

The best outcome in my mind would be that more people become more self-sovereign and understand this whole beast a little bit better. Just like, for example, also in the smartphone and software world in general, I wish that more people would understand the power of free and open source software.

And if you really understand it, then you become unstoppable in the computer and software and internet world. You know, you cannot be the platform, for example. If you know how to use encrypted communication properly, you cannot be censored.

And also if you know Bitcoin properly, the same is true. Your transactions cannot be censored, and your savings cannot be inflated away, and nobody can take your money. And so I see all of that developing in the same time.

I think more people will understand all of this. And I really like Alex Metsky's way of looking at it, you know, like, people learn in two ways. It's either curiosity or pain. And I think we will continue to see that.

And I think the money printer will bring the pain and more and more people are going to learn. Yeah, he's fantastic. I had him on a while back and he does not mince his words. And nobody does.

He's fantastic. Yeah, you made a good point there as well about, you know, we don't necessarily want this to just become the infrastructure and the people who are already controlling everybody's money.

Just switch across to Bitcoin. We do want more people to hold their own Bitcoin and become self-soffering. And, you know, I completely agree with it. And for me, that's kind of, you know, obviously we all care about number go up.

We all want to make money from this. We all want to increase our purchasing power. But really what it means to me is that we can have our, or have more freedom and be able to say like, "No, fuck you.

I'm not doing that. I don't want to do this. I want to live in my own world in my own way." And that more people have more freedom. And, you know, if we don't get the average person to understand this, then we don't get to that world.

I mean, there's an argument. We could still get that world because we can have this kind of circular economy and people will buy and sell outside of the system. And, you know, all of that stuff could happen.

But obviously if a large proportion of Bitcoin is held by the same people who hold most of the money now, it's not ideal. So, I mean, how do you see that playing out? How do we, you know, other than writing books and doing podcasts and, you know, people writing articles and art and any other way of getting this information out there?

How do we do it? How do we get people to care? Is it literally, like Alex said, they have to feel the pain? Or do you think there is a kind of really efficient method that we just haven't thought of or something that we can do to get people to quickly understand and want to use this?

Hmm. I don't know. It's, again, it's a really tough question. I think, you know, the most effective method to get people into Bitcoin is number go up. Like, there is no arguing about that.

But still, I think, yeah, well, it's hard for me to say if there is like a silver bullet. I don't think there is, as you said before, you know, like there is, there are a lot of smart people that dismiss it completely, and the information asymmetry is still insanely high.

And also what I think is insanely fascinating. And I truly believe that to be true is that it, like Bitcoin clicks for everyone individually. Like, there's the way I picture it all the time.

And I know I've said it before, but I really love that imaginary picture in my head. If you have like a globe made out of puzzle pieces, it's not really stable until the last piece of the puzzle clicks in, you know, like if you build a 3D structure out of puzzle pieces, it only is stable once the last puzzle piece falls into place.

And then I think you really get it. And that's a different one for everyone, you know, like it's probably 21 million different puzzle pieces. And so I think that, you know, you will get Bitcoin at exactly the right time for your situation.

And I think also you will get small be Bitcoin at exactly the right time. You know, like the first Bitcoin will come to you once it's right for you. Because I think if you don't understand it, you will lose it anyway.

You know, that's the problem with giving away Bitcoin, for example. You can't give away Bitcoin. People will lose the private keys, people will mess up in other ways, people will sell it for shit coins.

And we saw it all over again. Like we saw that we see it all the time and we see this still. So I think that you truly have to understand it to a certain degree. And you also mentioned when you talked about people from the legacy financial world that they don't really understand money and how the jargon is so complicated.

And they quote unquote hide behind jargon and don't really understand what they are saying. But they're throwing around big words and it sounds like they understand what they are saying. And I think understanding Bitcoin is so difficult because we don't really have to write mental frameworks yet for it.

And we don't even have to write vocabulary for it yet. Bitcoin is so many things, you know. Like if you just say Bitcoin, what do you mean? And that's also what I try to explore in the book.

And I brought along Twitter thread about it like over a year ago, because that was one revelation I had that, yeah, it was complicated. Let's put it like that. I don't even want to dive into it too deeply.

But in essence, you can think of Bitcoin as the idea of Bitcoin, you know. And that's what I also want to explore in the book. And I dive in the prehistory. And I had like so much fun writing this chapter because it's so great to go through all the cypherpunk archives and see how far they already were.

You know, like, for example, B money by wide eye and also Sabo speed gold. It's basically Bitcoin. It's just like one or two small pieces were missing, but they were so close. It's insane, you know.

It's also helping is reusable proof of work system. It's insanely brilliant. And it's so close, you know, like, it's really hard to articulate what Satoshi added to make it work because it's multiple things at once.

It's like, you know, this accordion, not of interlocking incentives and many ingenious ideas combined. Definitely, you know, the difficulty adjustment is one of the most genius ideas. And it's like the secret sauce that makes everything work, but still, you know, adding the protocol rules directly into the lecture, so to speak.

And it all of it is genius. Like it's, I just had to tweet a couple of days ago. Like it continually blows my mind how many insanely complicated problems Satoshi solved. And yes, he had a lot of like help, like a lot of, there was a lot of building up to Bitcoin, but still it's just putting that all together.

It's insane. And you know, like when you talk about Bitcoin, some people, when they mentioned Bitcoin, they talk about this idea, you know, this idea of digital cash. And they don't see Bitcoin as the final word, so to speak.

And Bitcoin obviously is also a software, you know, and the software implements a protocol. So when people talk about Bitcoin, then they sometimes also meet the protocol. It's also a computer network.

So some people that talk about Bitcoin, they only meet the computer network. Some people obviously are only talking about the financial asset that's born from this computer network and so on and so forth.

You know, like it's so many things at once. And I think we need better vocabulary and just better names for things. That's why I'm, I'm definitely like Satoshi maximalist, like a sets, sets the standard maximalist.

I think when you talk about the unit, you should just say sets. It has nothing to do with Bitcoin, you know, it sets. That's the unit. That's the unit of account right there. And I'm a huge fan of Jacomo as well for multiple reasons, but he's a big proponent of

when talking about the protocol, talking about BP, LNP, you know, like LNP, BP, lightning network protocol and Bitcoin protocol. And all of that is currently emerging, you know, and I think in five years or so, we won't be talking about Bitcoin anymore.

Like we do today, you know, you know, like 20 years ago, everyone was talking about cyberspace or the information superhighway. You know, we didn't have, we didn't have the right works for the things.

And we're currently in that state in Bitcoin. So it's really hard to make sense of it all because everything is just so complicated and interwoven.

And my guess would be that in like five years from now, there will be like thousands of people just working on high layer solutions, just talking about lightning networks, not caring about Bitcoin at all.

You know, there will be other people that just work on BIPs, for example, and so on and so forth. And it's all of that will emerge. And I think that's all of it will help that more people kind of come in and see for what it is, you know, like it will make everything easier to talk about it.

Most people will not have to care about the network or the protocol or the idea or the software. They only will have to care about the asset. They only will have to care about sets, how many sets they have on their savings account.

That's all they need to know. You don't need to know, for example, in gold, you don't need to know the chemical properties of gold, you know, like it has no interest in you as a normal person.

You only need to know how many gold coins you have under your mattress or something like that. And we're not there in Bitcoin yet because everything is so interwoven. So, yeah, that was a long rant.

No, I couldn't agree more. It makes it harder for people to wrap their head around it because even the people who spend all our time like trying to learn and spending all our time thinking about this stuff, we can't really have any idea where it's going.

We can't know. No, and I think once those, like you say, once the vocabulary is there and people can understand that, okay, yeah, there's the network and then there's the asset and then, you know, understand the different layers and understand that this isn't just, you know, most people sort of just

think this is like a stock, you know, they don't look at it any deeper than that. And I found that personally, so like coming in, I was very, very interested in the money. I was interested in, you know, how is this different to our current financial system?

How do these incentives work and very interested in that side of it? But recently, I've been going much more down sort of the technology side and learning about running a node and learning about world pool and learning about all this, you know, UTXO management and learning about wallets and really digging deeper.

And it's a completely different world. It's like starting again, you know, I started learning this stuff and I'm like, "Oh my God, I know nothing. I know nothing."

And it's so early that what's going to come, you know, you're seeing things like Spectre, Desktop and all these sort of things that are just so slick now that I'm playing around with. And I think back to a couple of years ago, sending my first transaction and literally almost shitting myself. I was so scared. And my mind is just blown.

I'm just thinking, you know, what is it going to be like in five years? Like you say, you're going to have just literally people specializing in wallet UX or people just all they do is lightning or all they do is, you know, very, very tiny part of it because it is, it's going to touch everything, like the Internet.

It's just going to be everywhere. And I think we already see this now, you know, like many core developers, for example, they say they have no clue about lightning and they don't even really know how it works.

You know, like I've listened to podcasts. I think even Peter Willis said, you know, like he doesn't know too much about lightning and it's just, you know, like, but it's completely understandable.

And I think we will continue to see that emerge. And I think we're seeing it right now. You know, you mentioned Samurai, for example, and but not only Samurai, also other people working on privacy technology.

I think it's still, you know, the main line is seeing Bitcoin as different things. And for me, it's so fascinating because I'm interested in all of it. And I see there's two sides of the same coin, like, for example, medium of exchange and store value.

If you only care about store value, you don't necessarily care about privacy, you know, like you care about censorship, resistance and privacy, way more if you're using it as a medium of exchange.

And I think that's, that's also, you can see that clearly, you know, almost everyone, pretty much everyone that works on privacy tech currently Bitcoin hates the namagal up crowd and understandably so, you know, like, it's, that's not what Bitcoin and the Bitcoin ethos is about.

And I do agree, you know, like, it's the cypherpunk roots and also the like the cryptography roots. They are about anonymous cash, untraceable electronic cash on the internet.

But still, you know, there's this other aspect of Bitcoin. And this whole debate is as old as Bitcoin itself. If you go back in the forums and you just read the first reactions to Bitcoin, immediately it was talked about.

And Satoshi even explained it as digital gold, you know, like he, he, the famous post where he's like, imagine, imagine a boring metal, like a gray color and not very useful, but you can teleport it and it's limited and supply.

And so, you know, like both of those things are true. So it really, it really destroys my heart that all the people are fighting all the time. But, you know, I'm also not surprised, because to be in Bitcoin, you have to be insanely disagreeable.

You know, you, you go against the grain. Otherwise, you wouldn't be in Bitcoin. So you're picking fights all the time about everything. So I'm not surprised in the least that all the people are fighting.

But still, you know, like, I think I see it as just two sides of the same coin and Bitcoin is, is both uncensurable. And also, I also agree with Safedine when it says, you know, the most important technology in Bitcoin is the NGU number go up technology.

And I do agree because the whole value proposition of Bitcoin falls apart. If someone could mess with the predetermined supply schedule and like that's monetarily speaking, that's the biggest innovation we had in money since a thousand years, like easily.

Probably probably more than that, because like we used gold for, I don't know, 5,000 years plus. So you could argue it's the biggest monetary invention since gold. And like, you know, as far as I can tell Satoshi solved two very big problems.

And he solved them at the same time. And people are fighting over it now. What was more important? One of them was the double spending problem. And the second one was having a monetary policy that cannot be interfered with. And those two are related.

Like if you dig really deeply, those two are related and I suspect you can't really solve it in any other way. And, you know, like you can have fights all day long, what was more important.

But to me, it doesn't really matter. You know, both of them are important for some people. Having censorship resistant money is more important than having something that can't be inflated away.

You know, it's, it's, I just think most of the fights are a little bit silly, but, but yeah, I mean, more power to everyone who's working on Bitcoin, you know, like, it's funny that you say you're now diving into the primary system and setting up a dojo and playing around with some where I and so on and so forth.

Because I came from that world, you know, and I entered the NGO economic world later. So, so for me, it's the other way around. Interesting. So, so what's your thoughts? Like, in terms of, you know, you're saying you have the NGO crowd, you have who aren't so bothered about the privacy and then you have the privacy nuts on the other side.

And yes, they argue. Do you have the thought that like, okay, if you have a money that is not only uncentable, but it's harder to track, it's going to be more valuable. Because that's how I look at it. Like, this is why I'm diving into this stuff. I don't really spend my Bitcoin. I want to hodle it, but I sort of looked at it as thinking.

The last thing I want to see is this bullshit where people are talking about white lists and black lists and everyone, all the exchanges sharing their information and drilling down and finding out who owns what.

And I think of that about that, and it just makes me feel sick. I think, no, no, no, no, this is not, this is not the point in Bitcoin, and it's not going to be as valuable if this is private money, it is infinitely more valuable.

And if someone, you know, 10 years down the line, if you, if even if they do have black lists and white lists and there's these nice little white lists coins, which, which the exchanges can have, and then you have the black list ones, they're going to be 10 times more valuable.

You do realize that there was a put request in Bitcoin Core that changed black list to black list. Oh, that was ridiculous. It's a time laughing when you're talking about white lists. We're already, we're already ankle Steve in a very contentious topic.

But now I'm kidding aside, like, I completely agree with what you said. And just for the record, I didn't call anyone like a privacy nut. I think all of those people are awesome, and they should continue to do their work.

And I'm a privacy and look at myself, you know, like I'm in them. And even though some people obviously know my real identity in the Bitcoin space, most people don't.

And I'm a huge fan of, you know, disclosing private information selectively and, you know, like not posting everything on the Internet, because as we all know, like the Internet is pretty much forever, especially if you want to get rid of something that's already on the Internet.

It's already very difficult. And I think, you know, I think we need all of those people. And I definitely agree that a more private Bitcoin makes it more valuable. And I also agree that censorship resistance is one of its most important properties.

Otherwise, what are we doing here? You know, I think most of the infighting is because we're still living in peacetime. And I continue to say that I've been saying that for the last two years.

I think if Bitcoin were under attack, like seriously, nobody, we would have like almost zero infighting, because then the enemy would be very clear. Like if two or three large government collude and go after Bitcoiners and then Bitcoin, then I think everything would be very, very different.

Now it's peacetime and pretty much. And, you know, like there's time to fight about those kind of things. In terms of value, I think House has the best view on that. That every wave that brings new people in, some people will understand it deeply enough and they will stick around and they will make Bitcoin better in a multitude of ways.

You know, it's not only privacy. It's also on-ramps and off-ramps and also financial contracts and also, you know, like stupid things like wallets and hardware wallets. I mean, just look what NVK built in the last 10 years.

I mean, it's insane, you know. And that's just one Bitcoin that really got it and stuck around for the right reasons. And he launched a company and then he launched a second company and now he's building the most awesome hardware products.

And also the Samurai guys, for example, you know, like they were fed up that Bitcoin wasn't private enough and they sat down and they also not only launched a company, but they have an awesome business model as well.

You know, I think mixing is an awesome business model. And yeah, they're building amazing privacy tools. And so I think all of that will continue to happen and yes, Bitcoin will become more valuable because it's more useful to more people.

But still, since Bitcoin is money, the most useful thing you can do is bring more people in, in my opinion, that stick around for the right reasons. Because after all, it's a network and you have, like, the network effects are the strongest.

And yes, we need all those improvements. We need the improvements on the privacy side and those are on all layers, you know?

Like, I, it's, I'm, I'm some disappointed is the, is the wrong word, but I'm sometimes, I'm sometimes face palming in front of my laptop that people are arguing about what is more important, for example, bringing Schnorr online on the base layer or making every spare the coin join or having improved privacy thanks to lightning network.

All of them are important. All of them are great. Everyone who is working on that is doing an awesome job, you know? And the great thing about it is also they are into the, into the bandend, like the, like the, if we get Schnorr on the base layer, everything else improves, you know?

And if, well, it's implement page on my default, everything else improves as well, you know, everything that's on higher layers improves as well. If every lightning channel open and close is a page on all the better, if they all using Schnorr and tap root, all the better, you know, like, it's, it's, I don't know.

It's just silly to fight about these things. Yeah, absolutely. And I think you made a really good point about the fact that there's all this infighting and it's because it is in peacetime.

And I think that's an interesting way to look at it because if we were at war and we do have a common enemy, I do think you're right in saying that everyone would just pull together.

Everyone will be saying, okay, right, everything that we're doing is important and just get off their high horse about certain issues and thinking that what they're doing is more important than anything else because it's all important.

And at the end of the day, like, we're trying to have a better money that creates more freedom for more people around the world. And there isn't, I don't think a more important thing on this planet to do.

Like, it's the reason that I'm obsessing and spending my whole life on this is because I genuinely like can't think of anything else that's more important.

If I forward a few years and I'm on my deathbed and I've got kids or grandkids, I want to be able to be proud and think I was part of something that I thought was going to change the world, whether it does or not, I don't know, but it's massive.

If we can pull this off, it changes the world. It just, it boggles my mind to think about how it's going to do it. So you're right, it is silly, a lot of the arguing, but it is also quite entertaining at times.

So, again, you know, like, I think I fully understand why all of that is the case. All everyone today who is in Bitcoin, it doesn't matter why and it doesn't matter where you're coming from, it doesn't matter if you're made of female, you're an outlier and you're probably very disagreeable.

So I'm not surprised about dividing at all, like at all, like, it makes perfect sense and it will be very different in like 10 years, you know, like, I brought about it recently as well.

Like, we are still before our eternal September, you know, like in the use in the days, it's September, I think it was because school started again or university started or whatever.

A lot of users came in all the time and AOL employees had a lot to do. And there was one year where just the flood of new users didn't stop and this was the eternal September and this was like the first real boom of the internet.

And we are still before the time in the Bitcoin world, you know, like, just look around, look around in the Bitcoin space, everyone knows everyone, you know, that's how small it is.

And it's like, there are not too many companies, there are not too many people. And the eternal September in Bitcoin will come. And I think it will come quite soon and then everything will be very different.

But the stuff you said, it resonated deeply with me like it's, I agree, I think it's the most important thing that I could be working on. That's also why I'm so excited and so obsessed because I always asked myself this question.

Like, even before I found Bitcoin or Bitcoin found me, it doesn't matter how you look at it. But I, for the longest time, I, and I still have it on my wall. I have this quote on my wall from Aaron Swartz, who tragically killed himself because, yeah, because of a lot of fuckery that was going on.

I think everyone or I think most people that listen to this will probably know his story. If you don't just watch the Internet's own boy. It's a documentary, a good one about Aaron Swartz. And it's, it's a very tragic story. And he said one thing that deeply resonated with me.

And ever since I just printed it out and hung it on my wall. And it says, you literally ought to be asking yourself all the time. What is the most important thing in the world.

I could be working on right now. And if you are not working on that, why aren't you? And that's such a powerful quote. And I think, you know, almost nobody is asking himself this question.

Like, most people just, you know, they have whatever job because whatever career choices they make and made. And I don't blame them, you know, like life is complicated and you kind of need to do something to earn a living.

And all of, like most of that is really sad in a way and really fucked up that you kind of have to enter this eternal wheel. And, you know, I mean, you talked about this on the pod a lot as well.

If people only would realize how much money and time and life energy would be stolen from them just because of how the system is set up, then they probably, yeah, they would probably jump out of the window or something like that.

Do something drastic about it. But most people are just too preoccupied to think twice about it. And I think that's also very powerful in the Bitcoin world that it really wakes you up to this reality.

And I think the more people really understand what's going on in the world and how Bitcoin can help them to break the loop, so to speak, then the better we are off.

And just very quickly to loop back to the peacetime that I mentioned before, I think, and to the infighting, I think currently we have two common enemies, you know, and it relates again to the number of crowd and the privacy crowd

or the sort of value view of things and medium of exchange view of things, because on the one hand, we have the money printer as our common enemy.

And we have the surveillance state as our common enemy. And both are really, you know, like, they're probably villains, you know, it's, I don't want to have the surveillance state, and I also want to get rid of the money printer.

And, you know, if you work on privacy tech, you obviously think the surveillance state is a larger problem. And if you work on the NGU side of things, then you obviously think the money printer is a larger problem.

And both of them are super large problems. So, yeah, if we can, if we can destroy both of those villains, then I think the world will be a better place for sure.

Yeah, it's difficult though, isn't it, to have the time for people to have the time to, like you say, once they get on this hamster wheel, they can't stop. All most people can't stop. You get on the hamster wheel, you have some debt, you have a mortgage, you have car payments, or you have children, and you have responsibilities.

And if you get off that hamster wheel, there's no one there to catch you. And I think people find it difficult to have the time to actually reflect upon their lives and ask the question like you're saying, "Am I doing the most important thing that I can do on this planet right now?"

They don't have the time to ask that. And even if they do ask that, a lot of them can't find a way, you know, "Well, what do I do?" You know, they can't find what's going to make a change. And I think a lot of people do have the concern about the surveillance state.

And maybe not so much about the money because it's a little bit more difficult to wrap your head around, but the surveillance side of things, I think more and more people are waking up to it.

I think people are unsettled by it, but they just don't see a way out, so you ignore it. And I think it's the same with the money. People feel that life's getting harder. People feel that their time is being taken, and they're thinking, you know, what is this all about?

Like, all I'm basically doing is working, and I'm just managing to survive for the majority of people. But they don't see another option. And now there is this option, which is amazing. And that's kind of what I found with myself was I was working day and night, just like a lunatic, trying to build a life that I thought I wanted.

And I kind of got to that stage, and I had the toys and the cars and the bikes and the home. And I was deeply unhappy. And I didn't really sort of see the point in carrying on, to be honest with you, because I thought, well, what is this all about? Like, what am I achieving?

And I genuinely just thought, like, at the end of the day, I'm going to die, and I'll have achieved nothing. No change has happened in this world. I'm running a business that makes some money. I'm not making any difference. I come in, I fix problems. The next day, they're fucked again, I fix it again.

And what's the point in that? And that was my life. And it was only from stepping back. And literally just saying, I'm going to go and paint for a year.

I'm just going to fuck it. I've had enough. And I just started painting for a year. And it was only because I found Bitcoin in that year, and I had that time to allow my brain to actually think about something different.

I genuinely think if I'd have learned about this when I was full time flat out in my job, I wouldn't have got it. I wouldn't have taken the time. And it would have gone straight past me.

Yeah, I think it's impossible. Like, I truly believe, and that's again coming back to the outlets. Everyone who's in Bitcoin is an outlet. Everyone has a similar story, you know, like, myself included.

I was so grabbed by Bitcoin. And, you know, there were other reasons as well. But I quit my job. And I was, you know, without any income, Bitcoin full time for, you know, almost two years.

And nobody can do that, you know, like literally, like, I was in a very privileged position. And I had a lot of support from my family and, yeah, my better half.

And, you know, I had a nice support network that allowed me to do that. But it also almost killed me in a way, you know, like, you want to be useful and you want to do something meaningful.

And I also knew that I couldn't go back to my previous job because it was just eating my soul alive. And I knew I couldn't forgive myself if I wouldn't find a way to do Bitcoin full time sustainably, you know.

And, and I mean, I hear it all the time. And of course, you know, like, you can, um, there are different ways and different approaches you can take.

And I was, for example, also thinking about, and there are some awesome Bitcoiners that do that just have like a blue collar regular job. And I was thinking about, you know, all kinds of things.

If I'm going gardens, at least, then I can listen to Bitcoin podcasts like eight hours a day. And everyone leaves me alone. It's just, and it's an honest living. And it's fine.

You know, a lot of people did stuff like that or do stuff like that. And, you know, I very much respect that because I know I talked about it in the past on other podcasts, but I think it's relevant for this conversation.

Like, the job I was doing before, it ate me alive because I knew I wasn't, I wasn't making the world a better place. You know, I basically wrote software for the surveillance state. Like, I, and I'm still having a hard time living with myself.

You know, I was very small, you know, people in general are very good at rationalizing the things that they are doing. And, you know, especially like the more intelligent someone is, the better they become at rationalizing something.

I'm not sure how intelligent I am, but I was very good at rationalizing what I did. And I was just, you know, just one programmer. I was just, you know, like writing software. We did most of it in a way that was even like protective of your privacy.

But in the end, you know, we were writing software for the surveillance state and for, for especially border control industry. And, like, you have no idea how you probably do, you were in a similar situation, I guess.

But it's so, I'm having a really hard time verbalizing this because I think everyone currently knows where the world is headed in those kind of areas. You know, everyone knows the security theater at every airport, and it gets worse every year.

And it will get worse and worse and worse. And now we have full body scans and we have like facial recognition and fingerprinting and all of that, like every EU passport, since I don't know, probably 10 years already or so, you need to provide your fingerprints if you want to get a new passport and stuff like that.

And all of this will continue. And even though my parting that was extremely small in the grand scheme of things, it just ate me alive to have any part in that at all, you know, like it's, it's, you know, the story is about, it's probably a horrible comparison.

But the story is about the Second World War, how, you know, how many people it takes to run a gas chamber, you know, everyone is just doing a job and some people are just, you know, probably just cleaning something or whatever, you know, I'm just doing my job.

And I think that's what's in the grand scheme of things is currently happening a lot in the world as well, you know, like, and as you say, like once you're in the hands, you really don't really have the time to reflect, and then most people take very drastic measures like you did as well.

You know, you just quit your job and say, like, fuck, fuck all of it. I'm just going to paint for a year. And a lot of people that I know they had similar experiences, you know, it's just like, most of them can't really articulate it, but they know what they're doing in a moral sense as well is either wrong or not useful.

You know, a lot of people have like insanely bullshit chops as well, like they know it wouldn't make a difference if they're there or not, and they're earning an insane, insane amount of money, you know, like it's so laughable.

Like, I know people from the legacy finance system that literally do nothing every day, like they're done with their day's work in like 30 minutes every day, and they don't get more work in the inbox, and they're making a killing, and they can't live with themselves because they know they're useless.

And so, yeah, it's a recipe for disaster, and then you have a burnout or something, and yeah, they, you know, you go to a yogurt retreat to India for like two years, and it's over and over again.

And I truly think that coming back to Bitcoin, that we see that so much in the space that people that found Bitcoin, or I like to turn it on its head, you know, like Bitcoin finds you, and Bitcoin takes possession of you.

Then you really, you have purpose in the world again, you know, like, and if your purpose is killing the surveillance state, good on you, more power to you. If your purpose is mainly killing the money printing machine, more power to you, you know, like I don't differentiate between those two things.

And I think we're as Brady likes to say, you know, we're at the dawn of the Bitcoin Renaissance and I see Renaissance man around me all the time, you know, Bitcoin Twitter is full of Renaissance man.

And they love what they're doing. They're in it with their heart and soul. Like, you know, people are working like 20 out of days every day. Just look at guys one. He has read like, I don't know, like 10 million pages of Bitcoin content on the air.

I know. And there are many people like him, you know, like, like, yes, I'm just humbled to be around and watch all of this unfold. Yeah, it is. You have to be in it for the love of what you're doing, because I mean, certainly for some time, it just, it's very difficult to make any money in this space.

You are generally going to be making much less than you would in a normal job, but you can wake up every morning and you can think, okay, I can make a change.

I can help one person understand this. I can help on board someone. I can, you know, whatever it is, like you say, bringing down the surveillance state, whatever it is that you're doing. When you finish your day's work, you can think proudly.

Okay, I have actually made the world a better place. I've actually followed my passion. And there's not a lot of people on the planet who can say that. And that's one of the things where, you know, you mentioned, you know, do we are we controlled by Bitcoin? You know, are we possessed by Bitcoin? And it does often feel that way.

It does often feel like I've got some magical spell over me, which is just, you know, it's almost like I'm not fully in control of myself because I am so obsessed with this system and so obsessed with, you know, with being part of it and making any changes that I can that

that I do. Yeah, I do almost feel like I've been is taken possession of my mind and soul. Yeah, that like that was my main insight that I had that this is this is basically true. And I think that's part of the reason why Bitcoin is like, like people have no idea how unstoppable Bitcoin is.

Like people have no idea. And I don't necessarily mean that from the technical part, even though that is true as well, you know, like just from a technical perspective. Remove all the Francis Paulios of the world and remove all the Rudolph and Novax from the world. And they're like, no, don't do that.

Many, but just as a thought experiment. I love them both. They know it. Just as a thought experiment. Bitcoin would be fine. You know, I think Bitcoin would be fine. But we have those people and I think that's a very underestimated fact like it's.

There's so many layers to this thing. And I know the people like to talk about, you know, the toxic cold and Twitter and like the toxic maximalists and like the cool dish Bitcoiners and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And all of that is like fun and games, but it also isn't, you know, like there's so many people that literally have their soul in the game and they are like fully possessed by Bitcoin.

There's just no other way to phrase that. And it's so difficult to talk about those things because like it's so difficult to talk about those things openly because I know how insane that sounds.

That's also why I love GigaChat Michael Salus so much because now everyone who is spouting insane nonsense about Bitcoin is in very good company, you know, like the cyber hornets and how it is like a wall of encrypted energy and that feeds on truth and stuff like that.

So all of that is from the very esoteric writing about Bitcoin that Bitcoin has put out in the last couple of years. And I think all of that is true. And I think that it's just underestimated how largely following the quote unquote religious following of Bitcoin is.

And it's very hard to stop this, this minority of people that are truly like with their whole heart and soul in the Bitcoin space. It's really hard to stop it.

And I think give it another, you know, it's very hard to think about it properly because I'm not saying Bitcoin has already won, even though I've said that in the past. I think it's true. I'm just not, you know, like, take that.

Yeah, but it's both, it's both, you know, like we want to build something that, and like we have something that can't be stopped in the first place and we want to make it as bulletproof as possible.

But another way to make it unstoppable is just win the race, you know, like we have people in Congress now that are full on Bitcoin us. It's very hard to pass legislation in the US that goes against Bitcoin. We have CEO multimillion dollar company CEOs.

Like, you know, publicly traded companies that have the cash reserves in Bitcoin. So it's very, very hard to fight against Bitcoin on that front now in the US.

I think, you know, thinking about it in those kinds of, how should I say, like, socio political terms and not purely technical cryptographic terms is very useful as well, because just with more education and more outreach.

If we wouldn't have guys one and all the other people that are putting out insane amounts of Bitcoin content, Michael sailor wouldn't have been able to go to get up to speed in like a month or two, or how I mean, yeah.

It's insane how quickly he he went from no coin to like, like, full on maximum, like, you know, like, Max Keita level. Yeah, I was, I was like, obviously he's a crazy smart guy, like it goes without saying like he's very successful man, but I was impressed like when I first that I first heard an interview with him.

I think it was the pump when I listened to first, and I was just like, Jesus Christ, this guy's been in for a couple of months and he's like schooling people, this guy fucking gets it. And you're right without without the guy's ones and people of this world.

And, you know, and books like yours and safety and, and, you know, everyone who's creating content in this space. They just, there's no way like there's no way five years ago that could have happened.

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, just shout out to everyone who's who's spreading the gospel so to speak, you know, you never know who you're going to influence next it might be the next Michael sailor.

Like, again, the penny drops at different times for for different people, or we should say the Satoshi drops at different times for different people. And it's, it's just amazing like, even myself like I, I haven't, I haven't put out like that much content compared to others.

You know, I think, I think of the writings that I had so far, more or less as long as tweet storms, you know, it's. If you look at what Robert B. Love writes, for example, I'm always just blown away that every single.

Every single art article is longer than my book, you know, but I'm working on that so 21 ways will be way longer. But still, you know, like, I, I've reached people like I had no idea, I had no idea what, what's going to happen when I was just, you know, I was so obsessed that I just, I had to write about it.

I just had, I had, I had not too many people to talk about it in real life. That's also why, you know, like I love podcasts so much and just topping on podcasts so much because it, it also is an outlet for me and just to think out loud and think about the things that are currently, you know, trying

to be understood. And people wrote me, like, from so many different countries, 21 lessons was translated to, I don't know, probably like 15 languages or so. Like, and people wrote me from all over the world that, you know, this was the book that helped me understand that and that.

And I'm so humbled by the fact, like, I know for a fact that they're like, I don't know how many people wrote me, but dozens of people wrote me.

But this, it was the book that did it for them. And I would have never thought that again, you know, like it's a long tweet storm in my book. It's just, and it's, it's just, yeah, it's, it's just amazing how, how the world works, I guess, you know, in today's day and age.

Like, it's, everyone can put stuff out there at like zero marginal cost, you don't need a publisher, you don't need anything.

And you don't know who you're going to reach and whose mind you're going to turn. So, again, like shout out to everyone who is already doing that. And if you're, if you're like sitting on the fence in regards to writing something or starting a podcast or whatever, just, just go ahead and do it.

You never know where it leads you. And it's, I don't believe that there is such a thing as, you know, like too much content. Just, just look at the books for God's sake. Yeah. Just, just, if you have something to say, just say it and put it out in the world and it will grow from there.

You're so right. And that, that feeling of having to have a company, you know, saying you want to jump on podcasts and have the conversations because you can't in normal life or you want to write something because you want to get these thoughts out there.

And a lot of it is just finding what medium works for you. You know, I remember like when I was first really like got to that point of like obsession where I was just mind blown.

I started putting together presentations first because I thought I'll put a presentation together and I'll show that to my family and friends. Not a fucking chance. They had no interest. And then I was like, okay, are you able to, no, no, no, no, no, literally, it just would not entertain the idea.

So I was like, okay, right, what can I do now? And I'd sit up all night, like, just, I couldn't switch off. So I'd sit and I wrote like three, four, five articles.

But they were disgusting because I'm really, really dyslexic. Like I sat for days, weeks writing them. And, and then I'd look at like proper writing, like your writing or anyone else is in the space writing.

I was like, no, okay, these are, these are horrible. So then they went off on the shelf. And then I was like, well, I have to speak to people. So that's how the podcast started.

And, you know, it's, it's a great feeling. Like you said, when people reach out and, and you have someone, you know, literally like today, I've had someone reach out and say, Oh, I found your podcast really interesting and useful.

You know, the coin join episode with Bitcoin Q&A. And just that, just like someone finding it interesting is the best feeding in the world. It cannot be beaten when you feel someone has benefited from what I'm doing and, and you get the pleasure of having conversations like we've just had.

I can't think of anything better to do with my life. It doesn't earn any money, but it's, it's a great way to spend my time. And yeah, I literally can't imagine doing anything else. And it's great to hear that it sounds like it's very much the same for you and that you've got a second book coming, which I really look forward to reading.

And yeah, it's like you say, once it's got you, it's got you. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, like, I think everyone kind of, I mean, I guess there are exceptions, but I think most people, they just scratched their own itch and just went for it and started small.

And just, you know, started recording, started writing, whatever. And some of them, you know, they have, like, they made it their job now. Just look at guys for example, and also Brady. And it's, it's just, yeah, like you have to start somewhere. So just because you mentioned it, it doesn't make you any money. Yeah, I mean, that's true.

But I think, I think it doesn't have to stay that way if you if you continue to put out quality content. And I also think that, you know, if, if we're right about the general macroeconomic environment and just about the thesis of Bitcoin in general,

then a lot more people will be coming in and a lot more interest will be generated. And I mean, we thought we saw that in 2017 that, you know, a lot of opportunities open up if new people and new money comes in and companies will be launched.

And, you know, again, probably most of them will fail, but still like most bull market companies are bound to fail. Most bear market companies are bound to survive.

But, you know, like the only way to kind of get into the space full time is to put yourself out there and just, yeah, create content or start coding on whatever open source project interests you.

And I think the most effective way to do stuff like that is simply to scratch your own itch. Like if you if you're thinking that, that for you, it's just having conversations about Bitcoin because nobody in your family from the sounds of it will talk to you about Bitcoin.

And I'm just surprised that this is still the case. Like, I mean, I have a similar problem, but, but it's, you know, like most people will kind of listen to me a little bit, but I also, you know, I'm a very sneaky bastard.

So I always talk about Bitcoin without mentioning Bitcoin. So I always talk about, you know, politics and monetary politics and just money printing in general and just not mentioning Bitcoin wants just talk about all the insanity that's going on.

And just sneakily always mentioned the money topic and inflation topic, but everyone will just agree and then you don't have to say anything. Yeah, that's actually that's a good that's a good way of doing it. I've just stopped. I've just stopped. I got to a point where I just like can't be bothered anymore.

Can't be bothered. I stopped with some groups of people as well, just some of my friends. I just like, you know, I've sent you so much material and I tried to convince you for so many years.

You obviously don't want to be convinced. And I also, you know, like, I changed my mind on that a couple of times and I'm still have two minds about it. I think, you know, the more people come in and I still think like I still have the need to put a quote safe

as many people as I can, especially when it comes to friends and family. But I also realize that it's really difficult. And, you know, like, I think one of the wisest people in the whole Bitcoin spaces, Metal Dell, and he condens, he manages to condense his years of wisdom in like one liner memes

and just shill lightly is one of the wisest things that you can do. Like, again, people will come to you when they are ready and just shilling too hard. It will drive them away.

And it will also probably not be good for the people because if you push them into Bitcoin, again, they will, they will fuck up in like 100 different ways and just lose all their money.

And they probably won't come back for like five years or 10 years, you know, like, we saw that in 2017, you know, people that lost like 98% of their net worth in the shit coin. Casino cycle of 2017, they're not coming back. Like, they won't be Bitcoiners anytime soon. That's, it's, it's just, you know, all of that is scam. And that's it.

And they will probably go back into Bitcoin when they're forced by someone, like a government or a company or something, you know, like, if Amazon only takes Bitcoin anymore, then they will become a Bitcoin.

I quote, unquote, but it's, it's a very delicate topic. So, yeah, I don't know. Again, she'll, she'll lightly, she'll like, and talk about Bitcoin without talking about Bitcoin. Yeah, no, that's good. I might try that one, actually.

So when's the, when's the new book out? When are we going to be, is it going to be sort of audio? Again, I guess, guys, one will be straight on that. Yeah, we'll see about that. It's still very early days. I've been working on it for quite some time now, but again, it will be 21 chapters and I've written like four of them now.

But I'm aiming for 2021. So probably like Q3, Q4 2021 is what I'm hoping for. Yeah, again, I'm having a harder and harder time to just find the time to sit down and write meaningful chunks, just having a small baby and coding full time again.

But I'm doing my best and I'm trying to get up very early or staying up late and just write for like an hour or two every day. And so far I'm quite pleased with everything. I also, I, I set up a Patreon, which is really motivating. Like some people are insane enough to support me this endeavor.

And I released the chapters that I wrote as early content there, like as exclusive content. But the book again, once everything is said and done, will be released on GitHub and will be released under creative comments.

Very permissive license. So everyone can like print it for themselves and translate it and basically do with it what you want. And yeah, I hope that I'll be done in 2021 for obvious reasons.

So 21 ways has to be published in 2021. And so that's my hard deadline. And yeah, I hope that I, I will manage to stick to my time plan as, as well as I can.

Well, I'm very much looking forward to it. So if you can chill, not lightly, where is your Patreon, where can people support this to make sure that it comes out as quickly as possible because I will be reading it as soon as possible.

So I'm going to show you where, where people can find you and where people can support this. Yeah, as, as it's true for most Bitcoins, I guess the best way to find me is on Twitter.

Unfortunately, because you know it's a centralized platform, but I'm there GG on Twitter and you can also find me on Mastodon. You can also find me on keybase. I have the same handle everywhere.

So go to their GG.com, which is my page and there will be links to the new book and the old book and everything else there and all my articles. So I try to, you know, be self self sovereign as I can and self host everything that I can.

You can also, if you, if you don't like Patreon, you can also support me by Bitcoin, of course. So I have a BTC pay service set up. But unfortunately, you know Bitcoin can't do recurring payments yet.

There's still a Patreon use case. And yeah, you can, if you're from the US, you can also support me by auto-dising via Swan Bitcoin. So that's the only raffling I have.

Swan Bitcoin that comes slash GG. And yeah, speaking of that, like if you want to support the Bitcoin ecosystem at large, part of Swan, like it's not really part of Swan, but some people that are also involved in Swan launched Bitcoin adventures.

So if you want to invest in Bitcoin only and bit companies, then check out Bitcoin adventures. That's just a general, you know, like if you're supporting Bitcoin, then you're supporting me as well.

And that's a good way to do it. And yeah, that's, that's all the shilling I got to do. Like 21 lessons, you can read it online for free. You can also download it for free. You can buy it on Amazon.

And the only reason why I'm doing it via Amazon is just I don't, I don't have the capacity to sell it myself and send it myself. So I need someone to take care of the logistics and that's Amazon for now.

And yeah, other than that, just, you know, as Matt likes to say, stay humble, stack sets, always encrypt your backups.

I always say, you know, just never stop stacking sets. That's the best thing you can do for Bitcoin. Just, you know, I truly think that the best thing you can do for a peaceful transition to a Bitcoinized future is just to set up everything you can spare as an auto DCA plan.

Continue your life, just imagine that the world isn't on fire. Continue normal and just auto DCA everything you can into Bitcoin. And then you, you, you have helped plenty, just like us likes to say, you know, it's, it's the one thing, the one charity that really does good in the world.

So, you know, every, every single penny that goes into Bitcoin can't be, can't be used by the fear tyranny. And that's a good thing.

Absolutely right. Yeah, I mean, that's what I love Swan. And, and my sponsors coin floor, they just do DCA and OB, who's the CEO, it's just built a fantastic product. And that's what I will always show to people. Like, if anyone asked me, I'll always say just exactly what you said, just DCA take out the stress.

If we're right about this thing, whether you buy a, you know, $10,000, $11,000, $12,000, it doesn't really fucking matter because this thing is going to go crazy if we're right and sit back and relax and learn rather than trying to trade it or mess around.

Yeah, thank you for, thank you for the shill and anyone who is listening to this and thinking, okay, no, I've actually read 21 lessons and I want some more from GG, get on there and support him. And it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you.

It's, like I said, at the beginning of the show, it's been far, far too long and I've really enjoyed the conversation and I can't wait to get you on again when the next one drops. Yeah, Max, the pleasure was mine. Thanks for having me and talk to you soon.

All right, take care, GG. Take care, bye-bye.