EP56 Bitcoin podcast with Ben Kaufman

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison.

The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in this space, and deliver to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Today, I speak to Ben Kaufman. Ben is a software engineer who's been working on the Spectre wallet.

You'll hear me talking about it quite a lot. It's my favorite. It's in my setup. And it's absolutely brilliant. It's really, really slick, really easy to use, and so, so powerful. So, get into the weeds a little bit with him.

Talk to him about some developments, and also just his general view of Bitcoin and what is to come. So, it was a great interview. Thank you, Ben, for joining me. After listening to this, you know what to do.

Go and buy some Bitcoin, either from Coin Floor, if you're going to use an exchange, or from Bisk or Huddle Huddle, if you want KYC free. Go and buy yourself a cold card, link that to your Spectre wallet on Core, and away you go.

Get ready for the bull run, and have your sat off an exchange. Enjoy. Hello. Hi, Ben. Hey, how are you doing? Hi, Ben. Yeah, really good. Sorry, I was just having a technical issue there, but we're now live.

Very well. How are you? Yeah, I'm good. I'm doing good. Excellent. Thank you very much for accepting the offer to come on the show. I've been really, really looking forward to this one. I use your wallet every day.

I recommend it to everyone I speak to. And yeah, I'm just really excited to have you on, and learn a little bit more about how it came about. But also, what I found quite interesting is, normally when I'm speaking to devs, they don't get too necessarily involved in all the Twitter stuff.

They've got their heads down. They're not really piping up, or memeing, or sending anything out. And it's not the normal sort of dev that I'm speaking to here. You're piping up all the time, dunking on no coin as an all sort, which I like very much.

Yeah, I try, I try. No, it's great to see. And on all the fiat fuckery that's going on, so clearly for you, this is not just about the tech. This is about changing things. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to finding out about all that kind of stuff and how you came to be on Bitcoin Twitter, and how you came to be building this stuff.

And yeah, how it all came about. So, would you tell me like a little bit of an intro on how long you've been involved in Bitcoin, and how you found it? Yeah, sure. So, first time I started really looking into Bitcoin was probably early 2017, or late 2016, something like that.

Just because a friend who knew I was a software developer, so he wanted to get some technical support with something, with Bitcoin basically. So, he wanted to hear my thoughts on that, and if I could help him with something.

So, that just basically got me curious about what's this thing. And then, yeah, pretty much the usual story of starting to really dig deep into that. I just read about it quite a bit for a few weeks.

Then also, shit coins, obviously, for some time, unfortunately. Yeah, so, but that's basically how I started with it. I guess for me, maybe it would be interesting to note. So, for me, since I started working at quite a young age, I'd say, I couldn't get a proper bank account.

So, I could open a bank account, I could deposit how much that I wanted, but I couldn't withdraw almost anything. So, it was quite ridiculous. For quite a few years, I could withdraw, like, a few tens of dollars, like daily, was the limit.

And if I wanted anything like above that, then I had to come with my parents to the bank and complete mess. So, yeah, so I could understand, I think, why it's so valuable money

that you can use, actually, without asking for permission. But, yeah, and then just, I'd say, just the usual story of going from Bitcoin to shit coins back to Bitcoin. That's a really interesting story, because I think for most people when they're coming in, or certainly in the Western world, they don't tend to need Bitcoin.

It's definitely more the investment side, or they're interested by the tech. It tends to be one of the two, but you actually needed it. So, you couldn't spend the money that you were earning.

And, like, I don't want to dox you too much, but how old were you that they were doing this? Like, I've never heard of that in Britain. No, about, like, 15, I think, something like that. Okay.

Maybe, probably. Okay. Yeah. And you were already hustling, already working and working as a dev, then? Yeah, yeah, so I started coding at about 12, I think. And, yeah, I started working, actually, around 14, something like that.

I love it. You're born to be a Bitcoiner. You've born to hustle. Yeah. That's so good. And what were you working on, like, before Bitcoin, before you found this? What kind of software were you building?

What were you interested in? Yeah, I was mainly working on mobile development. So, I was doing, for Android iOS, I was freelancer for quite a while. But just nothing like very specific. So, pretty much, like, many, like, types of mobile development.

Also, like, business softwares, like, stuff for automations for lawyers, stuff. And I think, basically, really, anything people needed. So, if it was, initially, it was, like, from friends of my parents or something.

And then, to just, you know, I mean, clients, that's the goal if I started. And at this time, so, before you found Bitcoin, you were already hustling. You were already earning money. But did you have any of this kind of libertarian or cypherpunk in you?

Were you already sort of a hacker kid who was into this kind of idea and this kind of stuff? Or was it all new to you when you found it? So, I wasn't very, I can't say I was cypherpunk. I can't honestly say that.

I can say that I was somewhat leaning to libertarianism without really realizing that. I never liked the idea of authority very much. Well, I quit school around 14. Yeah, and I knew that there is, I knew there's just something wrong with the system, basically.

What was also interesting is that I remember, so when I was a kid, my dad was talking to me about a bit about the hyperinflation period that was in the country when he was a teenager, probably, or something.

And I was just trying to understand how that, how come, I mean, that we had this hyperinflation, how come that the money lost the value so much. And how come that he was still telling me, okay, but printing money is still good.

And that's something I could not understand. And now I understand how I couldn't understand that. Because it doesn't make any fucking sense. That's why. Yeah, it's weird how many kids actually question things like that, and then adults don't.

Sorry, but this is really unprofessional. But my dog is eating my laptop lead. Just give me one second. One second. Sorry. Yes. Out. Sorry. Yeah, he just started eating my new laptop lead there, so apologies for that.

Yeah. But yeah, so that it is weird. And like, I don't know if you found the same. It sounds like we were similar at school. I also left early. I couldn't cope with it. It wasn't my sort of thing at all.

I started working young. I always felt like a little bit out of place because I would ask questions. And those questions always got me into trouble. The kids who ask the questions are more hassle for the teachers and for the system.

And they want you just to be quiet and shut up and go into a job and then start paying your taxes and keep being quiet until you die. And those who don't are a real nuisance for them. So did you feel when you left school, was that why?

Or was it just you thought, nah, I've got better things to do? Yeah, that's quite some reason. I just couldn't, I just couldn't stay there. Basically, it was quite a nightmare to just have to see there and listen to basically stuff that I either know or I'm not interested in or is just sounds nonsense.

And yeah, I just, I just had to live and especially what basically like the trigger was when I found that I can actually work already that I can. I found that I don't really need school in order to get a job, in order to do what I love, in order to learn by myself stuff.

So I just understood that I don't really need that. And this is what maybe just decided I must quit that. And how was that speaking to parents about that? Were they supportive of it? Or do they think you're crazy?

So no, so they were quite supportive. Maybe like my mom at first was quite like, she wasn't very sure about that, but they were very supportive. Yeah, they helped me. And now that you've done one crazy thing and left school at 14 and now you're doing another crazy thing and you're dedicating your time to this Bitcoin thing.

How's that viewed by friends and family? Are they just like, he knows what he's doing or are they concerned for you? I think they are like mostly, okay, he probably knows what he's doing, even though I don't know what he's doing.

But yeah, I think they don't really worry about that too much. That's good. I think that's nice. I don't think many people or many people's parents or friends or family tend to understand it.

But it's nice if they can give the support and just go, okay, you know, let you get on with it. And I'm so fucking glad they have because what you've built. And also before I blab on any more, Bitcoin Q&A has made me say, tell you the specter is fucking amazing.

He loves it. It's the best wallet out there. And thank you so much for building it. He is massively, massively hyped about it. And yeah, he would be very annoyed if I didn't tell you that.

Yeah, thanks a lot. That really means a lot. There you are, Bitcoin Q&A. You'd be happy now. But no, seriously, it's great. And I remember first hearing about it.

Last, I can't even think six months ago or whenever it was. And it being said, you know, they're having this with core and how it just skips that whole step and how slick it could be. And I kind of just overlooked it because I already had a setup and I was just like, I don't have the time really to mess around.

And then the more I looked into it, I was like, no, I'm going to give this a go because I was moving across the cold card. There's so many good bits of information and so many walkthroughs and everyone's raving about it.

I was like, right, I'm going to give this a go. I've never looked back. It's so slick. It's so easy. And how did you go about the UX for all this stuff? Is it something that you worked on mainly yourself or have you outsourced that?

No, no, it's rare. Yes, not at all. So a lot of the UX and basically all the initial work of starting the project was done by a step on a sneaker. Okay, yeah. Yeah. So and crypto advanced, so funded more rates from crypto advanced. They started it and they maintain it currently.

Yeah, and he is, to be honest, I'm not great at UX like at all. I'm trying my best and sometimes it works for me. Sometimes it's terrible and we need to start it over some part, but like the initial flow of how Spectre works was basically planned by Stepam.

And then how did you get involved in the team? Yeah, so I started with Spectre basically just as a user. So I was probably one of the first to use that. Like around February, probably first tried it. January or February, probably first tried it out.

Just saw it on Twitter and really, really got curious because I was looking for a way to do multi-sick without all the Electrum setup, which was super annoying. Even though technical, it's still just annoying to settle that up.

So I was just looking for something like that and then since Spectre, I had to try it out and I really, really liked it from the very beginning. But then I just saw that, okay, for example, one of the first things I saw, okay, the address after I sent funds to an address to the receive address, it doesn't change the address.

It can cause others to use. I just added automatic generation of addresses. And I just started out with all kinds of small stuff like that, or like, for example, adding labeling, so to label the UTXOs and the transactions.

So I started out basically with doing some small things just because I wanted them, just because I thought it would be cool to have that in a wallet. And from then, I just continued to give it more and more time until I basically became part of the team to maintaining it.

I just open sourced my way there, I'd say. And so all those little touches are the things I think that everyone particularly likes, you know, being able to label things the way that it's so easy actually to set up.

The fact that you can run this with Core and all these steps, they're just, they're big improvements on what I've used before and like you say with Electrum and those kinds of things.

I'm yet to use the multi-sig stuff. I'm still doing everything single-sig. I don't really know why. Everyone seems to say it's fairly simple, especially using Spectre, but I guess I'm just a little bit scared and just thinking, "I'll wait because I'll find a way to fuck it up."

Is that sort of reasonable for me to think like that or would you say that actually this stuff is simple enough that even a non-technical person like me could probably do it?

I think you could do that. We could just briefly mention the pitfalls I'd say. So when setting up a multi-sig, setting up the devices is simple as setting up the first one.

So you're taught by just adding all the devices like you do for a single-sig. Then creating the wallet itself is also the same flow. You just select the only different thing is that you're still selecting a single one.

You select the Quorum and you select the threshold. So how many you need from the Quorum? So like two or three or three or five, etc. Is that infinite? Not that it's probably necessary.

Not infinite. The limit in Bitcoin is 15. So you can do up to 15 out of 15. But also you should know that above five, it's just considered an unusual script.

Basically, so some miners will not mine it or will relate basically. So it will take more time probably for transactions to pass because not on miners will try to mine it.

Okay, I didn't know that. So the limit for a regular transaction is five and the limit in Bitcoin in general is 15.

Yeah, it's one of those things that I know that it gives such better security and all that kind of stuff. But everyone always says to me, "You're more likely to lose your coins from doing something stupid." And I hear it all the time.

And I'm still at that stage where I'm thinking, "Oh, there's something that I'll do wrong and lose something." But I suppose there's no harm in trying to set it up and just doing a very small amount and just testing it for a couple of months.

And then if I'm comfortable adding to it, I suppose. Yeah, yeah, that's the best approach in my opinion. So just testing first with very small amounts. So the one thing I guess that you should note with multi-sick or the main thing is that with backup, you should make sure that you have all the expats available basically.

So in order to spend from a multi-sick, you don't need just the quorum, so you don't just need three devices. For example, from 3 out of 5, you need the three devices and all the five pub keys.

So you need to make sure that you have access to all the pub keys all the time. This you can do because this information is not critical, so it's privacy critical, but it's not. Nobody can steal your coins with that.

So there is less risk storing that multiple times and maybe in the cloud encrypted or something. So for example, one thing I think is good is to encrypt the file, just store it in the cloud.

Just with a very complicated password and have the password with all the seed backups. That's one option. And then another is just have it with each mnemonic backup. There are many ways you could do that.

You could give to family or something that you trust. It really depends on its own threat model, basically. One thing I find with Spectre, when I'm saying to people, okay, look, try this, use this wallet.

And some of the people that I'm speaking to have never run a node, they haven't set up core, they haven't done any of that sort of stuff. And they're like, oh, well, I don't really want to mess around with this kind of thing.

If you've got anything in the future where, or would you ever consider having it so that core is actually built in with Spectre? There's some way of downloading Spectre and then actually running, just, you know, I don't know, something simple where someone can just say, run core.

And it starts to actually download all the blocks and do IBD and all that kind of stuff within Spectre. Yeah, so we were just yesterday, I think it was two days ago, there was this discussion also on Twitter with Michael Flaxman and a few other guys who jammed in.

About, well, it started with the idea of adding an SPV client to Spectre, which personally, I don't like very much. I like client, because I do think the barriers for full node aren't very large.

So the main disadvantages of full node is one, the storage that it takes, so it's for full archival node. It's like really something like that. But this is solved by print node, so this is already not really a concern.

The second concern is that the initial setup is quite long, so it can take about a few days usually to set up the node.

So this is like the main reason why one would consider using a light client, but then what we were thinking of even before that actually is to have core packaged with Spectre and have a snapshot of this current state from a node that we are running.

So make a snapshot from it every day or so, and have it available online so that people can download that, or ideally Spectre would download it in the background, and start from that. So this would make setting up Spectre with a full node in a few minutes.

And the disadvantage, of course, is that you're trusting the snapshot that we're giving you. To some extent, but then I would say that you would start also at the same time you'd start a normal IBD.

So you'd have a normal IBD in the background, and for the first few days you would use the data from the snapshot. And I think this is a pretty good trade-off, and I think it's not too complicated to add that in Spectre.

And I think this will help both with usability and increasing the amount of people who actually use a full node. I think definitely as a non-technical person, if I was having to do that, rather than what I had to do with running a run and dojo and a minode and all these different things and building them, it's pretty intimidating for me.

If I could have done that with Spectre, so much more slick, so much less concerned I probably would have been, and I think that goes for a lot of people. So it would be good, I'm sure it gets a lot more people running their own node.

Yeah, so I hope this will, we're still thinking on exactly how to implement that. Right now also, Stepan has set up a website, I think it's called prunenode.today, something like that. I can share the link later.

Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, it already has the snapshot, which Stepan is publishing. So theoretically, you could do this manually currently, and then we would still, doing the automation in Spectre, I hope it will come not quite soon, but they can promise anything.

We're still finishing with bug fixes and implementing right now a new testing framework, and basically getting stuff ready for launching Spectre V1. But after that, I hope we will have the time to also do this core packaging.

It's interesting to see these things develop, and it seems to be developing at such a pace. I have lots of dreams about where this stuff goes, and how self-solving people can become, and how simple it's getting.

Do you have any views on that? When you're building this stuff, obviously from when you first joined the team, and where it was to where it is now, is incredible, and looking into the future.

Do you have any ideas of dreams of where this stuff goes, especially as someone who's been working from a young age who wasn't able to hold their own money? Now, you fully self-solving, you can verify everything yourself, and you're making that accessible to people all over the world.

Where do you see it going, and do you have any predictions of where it will be two or five years from now? Yeah, it's really hard to say, just because predictions are hard. I would say there are many different developments which could happen.

I think the use of Bitcoin in third world countries is something which is a very interesting trend. I hope it will continue to continue as a trend, and even accelerate, hopefully, because I do think Bitcoin can be very helpful in these situations in these countries.

And I'm really curious to see how this plays out. Besides, well, you can obviously see this adoption by institutions is also interesting to see. But I'm still curious on how this will develop, not optimistic in that regard, but it's still quite interesting to see how this will develop.

And in general, for at least for myself, I just hope to help as many people as possible to get started with using Bitcoin, probably, to use their own node to secure their own keys. Does it, from the way that you said the word institutions there, I felt that you were maybe similar to me and in a way you wish they would fuck off.

Is that right or? At some extent, yes, I understand the benefits from having institutions into Bitcoin, but I can also see the disadvantages, I'd say. It's tricky. What do you see those disadvantages being?

So I think, first of all, their influence on, they will try to influence Bitcoin if we thought we saw something with SegWit 2X, we'll probably see much, much worse things with these institutions trying to change stuff, especially around Bitcoin.

Okay, wait, see, for example, as we hear now and then from people like Raul, Poland and others like that. Yes, yes, exactly. That was a shame. It was a real shame because I really liked that he was bringing in normal people because normal people listened to someone like him and the way that he speaks.

And then you hear that sort of clownish comments and I'm just like, for fuck's sake, I know he's wealthy and I know he lives in the Caymans and I know he doesn't have to do things the same way that we do and he's probably sort of a bit desensitized to how everyone else lives.

However, he must see that this is more than just making money and it just, yeah, I don't know, Raul, that was very disappointing, very, very, very sad and I guess that's how most of them are going to be.

Yeah, so I do think the institutional investors will probably push in this direction and I think this, I mean, I don't think this is critical to Bitcoin in any way because I don't think they will succeed in pushing in that direction.

But it's definitely not really not very positive. So that's like a big reason why I'm not very much a fan of that. It feels like it's coming regardless, like whatever we say, whatever we do, even if we do no shilling and all of us just shut up and never talked about Bitcoin again, I feel they're all coming.

They're all starting to wake up and sniff about and the incentives are just there that they'd be crazy not to eventually get involved and yes, it's great. You know, like you say, it's great and the number will go up and all that sort of stuff, you know, which is nice, but it does feel like they're going to try and corrupt it.

And if anyone can corrupt it, which I don't think they can, but if anyone could, it's going to be these guys. And I guess that's why more than ever, like, especially with this podcast, I've really gone down the privacy route.

I've really been trying to like get my hands dirty with the technology and learn how to use it and help other people use it because I don't know how long we've got left.

It feels like things are moving really, really quickly and we could blink and things could change. So it is a little bit of a concern and I love, I love this sort of movement of fuck you money.

I love like the group of people who are surrounding it and that the people just do what they want and it's missing from every other part of society and like, it's so important that we keep it how it is as much as we can and fight it as much as we can.

Do you have any view on, you know, like coin join implementations or privacy features that you particularly like or ways to fight this?

Yeah, so I think in terms of privacy, I don't have, I don't get very deep into coin joins. So, well, I understand obviously how it works, but obviously it's very interesting, but not really getting into what's like a favorite implementation or anything.

But I think, yeah, I think that just this is, well, this is a very good step, but I'm not sure if that would be enough.

I certainly don't think that we need to do something extreme, let's say like implementing like some fancy cryptography or anything in Bitcoin itself.

But I think Bitcoin is with top root, for example, it's always getting better with in terms of privacy. So, yeah, there's just a constant move towards improve, like I'd say marginal improvements in terms of privacy.

I think this is going in the right direction. I hope it will be enough. And I think it will probably at least be enough to make sure that most of the people are safe, because I think it will just make it expensive enough to to prevent massive attacks. Let's put it that way.

Maybe I think targeted attacks basically on specific individuals of states on specific individuals will probably be always or almost always be feasible. So, I don't really think people, no matter how many coin joins you do, you probably can't hide if they're really looking for you.

But if you're not like their number one target, then this will probably be enough. And I see that you work or have worked on Bisk as well. And I'm a big Bisk fan. Do you feel that these sort of platforms will help as well?

Yeah, I think this is actually quite important. So, I think the owner up from right now is also very important. And getting it without KYC is doing so much already of the work in terms of privacy.

So, I think this is really an important platform Bisk. Yes, so I just think if you have enough liquidity on Bisk and such platforms, then it already does so much for the privacy of Bitcoin already.

I think it's really great in these terms. And what do you see happening if we succeed? And when I say we, the Royal Way, if everyone, I'm doing fuck all, I'm just talking about it.

People like you and everyone who's building this stuff and I'll use it and I'll do my bit. But the builders and everyone involved in this. What happens if they succeed? And what in your mind happens if we do get money that can't be controlled?

We do have a Bitcoin stand or some form of it. And it becomes more and more widespread and more and more people accept SATs and the banks and the governments and all the people fucking with us get less and less control over the coming years.

What do you think happens? What do you think the world's going to look like?

If it goes in this direction, I think it would be really the best way even to some extent, probably even similar to the de-reformation, simply because so many right now and so many resources are going currently into wars and to surveillance states, surveillance, et cetera.

And they just think that if we could dedicate all the work, all the human ingenuity, instead of going into this terrible stuff, just doing what the market won't, just taking care of people's needs.

This will already be such a huge boost that it will already trigger development, we really can't think of it. That without mentioning reduction of taxes, which slow down innovation, slow down people and bring more resources into the hands of the wasteful state.

This without mentioning also all the fiat bullshit with just fiat speculation, which hurts global, so which hurts global, let's call it the division of labor globally.

So we need to work with with us dollar and someone else is working with euro and someone else is working with, I don't know, peso or whatever, and all the speculations which are currently going just all the money, which is going to speculation just on this type of stuff.

I just think there are so many things which could be improved so much if less resources would go to the state, less control would be over at state hands, and more would be just controlled by the market, by the people.

I still don't think we're going into in this direction, though, not yet at least. I'm less optimistic, I would probably take quite a bit of time, and quite a bit of effort to until the state is finally starting to really shrink and fracture, but I hope we'll eventually gather.

Some interesting points about with currency it just still adds extra friction and, like you were saying, the regulations and all of that stuff it does it stifles innovation it, it stops people from being able to move properly it stops people from really doing the things that need to be done to move forward

and all these small businesses and entrepreneurs are trapped by these regulations and there's only more and more of them, and I think everyone's really fucking sick of it, and that's why all of this stuff is open source stuff is so interesting

and that people seem to just move so much quicker, like the rate of innovation that I see within the Bitcoin space compared to everything else I see outside of it, everything else is really boring.

It's just these massive companies who just buy everything that's a little bit innovative for interesting, they just buy them out, everything's just pattern on pattern on pattern and, yeah, it's a very, very dull world.

So do you have any thoughts of, you know, that's if we succeed, the world will change in a more positive way, do you have any fears or thoughts on what if we fail, what if, because to my mind Bitcoin is our only chance, it really, it really feels like that to me that this is our one shot

and do you have any thoughts on what happens if we fail at this, like what's on the line and is that one of the things that is pushing you forward to do what you're doing?

Yeah, that will be. I think what's on the line is the right of people to private property itself, basically. So I think owning money is that the state can control is necessary in that regard.

I think without Bitcoin, we would be at risk of states just completely eliminating cash, just controlling every transaction that would be extremely horrible.

And we could see very quickly, I think, stuff like this, for example, the Chinese social scoring system and stuff basically everywhere controlling the right of people to buy things to sell things.

I think this could be very, very dystopian, and it could probably still go there, but at least now with Bitcoin, we have a way out for a lot of people.

Yeah, it certainly feels like that. It feels like we are going towards that sort of Chinese model that kind of that yeah, like you're saying that dystopian future and I've certainly noticed it here in Britain with everything that's going on with Corona and everyone doing as they're told

that everyone's queuing up ready to jab something in their arm that they don't know what the fuck it's going to do and wearing their masks and saying yes, no sir three bags full so no one's got any bollocks and no one's willing to stand up and say what they think is right

and I'm so scared of being called out or being cancelled and it's yeah, it's if I just let look out into the future and think if the trend continues, it's really, really bad it's really proper 1984 stuff and it doesn't seem like a lot of people are paying attention

certainly here. Do you find that with yourself like outside of our little Bitcoin bubble when you're speaking to people outside of it? Are you becoming frustrated or are more people starting to wake up?

I don't think, at least in my environment, I don't think a lot of people are starting to wake up. I think there is a lot of this, it feels kind of like brainwashing of people into fearing everything and sort of critically

It's really interesting, maybe I read too much Orwell because it's just my favourite writer but so maybe I read it as incredible but it really feels very similar to that in a lot of ways

The psychological stuff especially, you know, in 1984 where they have the, what is it, the minute of hate or the four minutes of hate and they are all there? So they have the two minutes of hate?

Yes, we had here in Britain like a thing where everyone had to stand outside and clap for the NHS. I obviously refuse to do it but people were grasping each other up and attacking each other

for not doing it. So if you weren't out there, so it's these kind of things where it's like this psychological and all the gr... you know how the kids would tell on their parents if they've done something in 1984, that kind of stuff starting to happen if you're not wearing a mask and there's all this social pressure

and it's incredible how Orwell has, well, basically predicted 2020. He was just like 20 years out. It's crazy. To be fair, when you're really reading into history you're seeing that he wasn't really predicting a lot as much as he was documenting what he actually saw because in World War II period

so he really saw that before and it's starting to repeat itself, basically. So as much as I want to give Orwell this credit, I must say that, and as much as I hope that this will all be fictional.

A lot of the concept that he was writing about, this idea of thought crimes, this crime stop, for example, you know what that is? You remember that from the book?

So these are all stuff that he actually observed. Also the media just spreading fake news. He was just that all the fabrication of history, basically. It's also something that he actually saw, for example, in his participation in the Catalunian Civil War.

It's all stuff that he actually saw and I think this can really happen again and also can even get worse. So that's what I'm worried about.

I see quite a lot of thought crime from you on a daily basis. Yeah, you've been very bad. I see today you've done some thought crime calling out the thieves and that's very bad. You need to burn those thoughts.

And so outside of this dystopian thought and outside of if we win, just now and looking into the next year or so, are there any developments or things that you're particularly excited about?

It doesn't necessarily have to be with Inspector, but is there anything that you're really particularly looking forward to over the coming months or excited about?

Yeah, so I think one thing is that I'd be quite excited about is getting the top root finally into Bitcoin. I hope it will actually be within a year, but who knows, but it's really nice to have.

Besides that, there are so many, especially with 2020, changing up so many things that it's really hard to say. It's really hard to say what will come next and we've all that.

I think the bull market, if we really get out and finally passed the 20k, then it will probably be quite crazy because I just because I remember 2017, how crazy that was, and we're right now at all time high and it's completely quiet somehow.

So that's that feels like it's where it feels at least like we're going for a hell of a ride, which would be quite quite interesting and hopefully fun. And distracting.

Yeah, then besides, yeah, I think in terms of Bitcoin, I really want to get top root would be really cool. Also inspector supporting that would be really awesome to have. So just think about that.

And they just hope to continue with developing specters. So it's really, I've been doing this for like, what, probably eight months or so. And just really, I really love it. I love that people are starting to use that. And yeah, I just hope to continue.

Yeah. Well, I certainly love it. And like I said, Bitcoin Q&A loves it. And everyone I speak to who uses it loves it. So again, thank you for taking the time and building it. And it's been nice to learn a little bit more about you.

So it's not that normal to have someone who's a dev who dives into all the other stuff as much. And it's quite fun. Like I like that you do that. And it's been really nice to chat to you and learn a little bit more and fascinated to hear that you've been hustling since 14 and leaving school and having the bollocks just to go fuck it.

I trust myself and you're still doing that. So yeah, I'm excited to see what comes. And I do think that we're going to have a phenomenal bull run.

I think that especially because it's not in the news, you know, like you said, we're at all time highs. It's barely in the news, barely anyone's really talking about it or normal people certainly are.

I have a bit of a theory that these institutions and people who have suddenly realized they should be stacking up or keeping it quiet until they've loaded their bags and, and then they'll let the general public know.

And it could be, it could be quite a ride. So, yeah, if you're, we ever find yourself in London, do give me a shout and then when we're at 100k or 250k or something we'll go and have some drinks.

Yeah, I was actually in London every February for like four or five last years. Oh, really? I just hope that this time too, because last two times I was also in advancing Bitcoin there, which is just a great conference and I love it.

And unfortunately, probably this year it won't happen because of all the limitations, obviously, but really looking forward to with to return. And yeah, I just, I just love, I just love London. So I hope to come to come there actually.

Yeah, well, hopefully all this stuff comes down eventually and people wake up a little bit and just, just start to say fuck it because if we all, if we all stand together, we are unstoppable and it's just trying to stop all this separation that they're trying to push and everyone just to realize that they're much more powerful together.

And that's one of the beautiful things about Bitcoin. It makes people realize that they are powerful and they can take control and it was just not possible before. And like I said, tools like your building make it possible for normal people like me.

So, yeah, thanks again. And if you do find yourself here, it would be great. And yeah, it's been a really interesting conversation.

But is there anything else that maybe I've missed out or anything that you have on the tip of your tongue, anything that is either keeping you up at night or you're excited about or worried about at the moment?

No, yeah. So just, I'm just excited to finally, we're getting really soon the launch for Spectre V1. So we're just finishing with a lot of bug fixes implementing a new test suite and shout out to all the rest of the team for that.

So especially Kim and also Steppan Moritz, of course. It's really amazing working with them. And yeah, I'm pretty excited about that. Awesome. All right, Ben. Well, thanks again for coming on.

I'd love chatting to you. And I hope to have you on the show again as things progress. Yeah, it has been great. I hope that we catch up in the flesh at some point. And yeah, just thank you.

Awesome. All right, well, have a good evening and we'll speak again soon. Yeah, take care. Thanks. Cheers.