EP59 Bitcoin podcast with @CryptoCloaks

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and say that it's the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Welcome back, everyone. Today's episode is with Rick and SF from Crypto Clokes.

Everyone who's been in the space for some time will know of them. But if you don't, then definitely check them out. They have some awesome work. And we featured them in 21isms, Design Block 2.

We're just about to update on 21isms. So all the new featured artists and designers are going live today. So I thought I'd release this for anyone who might have missed it. I had a great time chatting to these guys.

We had a couple of technical issues towards the end, but it was a great interview. And yeah, really, really proud to have them featured on 21ism. So before we jump in, just want to say thank you again to my sponsor's coin floor.

If you haven't bought any Bitcoin yet, you're watching this bull run and you're thinking, "Oh, I need a slice of this." Get yourself on there, my links in the show notes, and enjoy the show.

Welcome, guys. I have two of the amazing people behind Crypto Clokes joining me today. And very excited for this one. Rick, me and you have been speaking for the last five minutes because I've had some technical problems on my end.

And I don't know exactly to call you Art Design. We've got Art Design, Art pleb, or your plebness. We have to choose one for the interview. Can you choose one, please? Just call me Art. I think that will spark.

Art. We're just calling SF because we all call them SF anyways. SF, okay. I'll go with that one. SF and Rick. It stands for science fiction, of course. It's science fiction. So SF and Rick from Crypto Clokes, and like Rick, I've said to you before, I'm really, really excited for this one.

I have been admiring your work for a long time. And all the boys in 21ism, we were having this discussion. We're like, okay, who do we choose for design this time? And normally, there'll be a little bit of an argument or, you know, a couple of people will really love a product or design or a feature

that we're going to do, and there'll be one person who's not so sure. But this was the fastest one we've had. Yeah. Everyone was just like, yeah, fucking all in, love it, get them on. So you have a lot of love out there, and you have some amazing products.

And I was hoping today to dig in a little bit more before we get into the products, just how did you guys meet and without doxing yourself? How did this project come about? Yeah, SF, you want me to start?

Yeah, sure. Go ahead. All right. I guess, do you want to start the whole journey of how I got into the company? Or where do you want to take it? What I'd like to know is a little bit more, like I say, I look at these products and I'm like, you just get the Bitcoin space.

Every time I think, oh, I'd really like something to be built. You've already fucking built it. You seem like you guys are so interwoven into this that it almost hurt. So I want to know how you got to that point.

How you found Bitcoin? How did you decide, right, we want to start building these products? And, you know, were you guys all friends before or did you meet through Bitcoin? Yeah, I guess I'll start at the ending, technically, because how we keep creating all these products that people want is

it's really ideas that come from the community itself. I mean, I look at our company and say, well, we're community driven. Three quarters of the ideas that we get or release products for have come from the community requesting one thing or another.

So that's really how we have pretty much keep bringing products that people want. It's because you guys tell us what you want. And then we just work with you. I mean, it's really helped. It makes it easy for us to.

But I guess before that, I really got into 3D printing. I don't know, like four or five years ago and then six months into the printing, I got into Bitcoin and that's kind of where everything took off at all.

I probably told the story a couple of times, but it all started with me wanting to hide my ledger off of my table. I didn't want it up on the table so anybody could see it. So I actually just designed them out.

Just designed them out and then put it on Etsy and said, hey, maybe people want to buy this. And that's really where it took off because we started on Etsy. We never really started on Twitter or started on our own website.

We really launched on Etsy. Incredible. And so, yeah, so it's really come from a place of you actually want something. And there's not something available, so you build it yourself. And presumably, then that was a product that lots of other people were interested in.

And you thought, okay, there's a business here. Yeah, exactly. It was pretty crazy. It started out with hardware, wallet, mounts, and here we are. We designed node cases, grenades, Bitcoin matters.

I mean, we do a lot now and it's crazy where we were actually started. Okay, and SF, how did you get involved with the project? How did you and Rick already know each other or how did it work?

Well, really, we thought on Twitter first, I believe when Rick contacted me to do a CSS checkout design for his busy day, which I really liked and I did gladly.

But I think during this process, I badged down a lot about making a note that has the famous quote from, what's the guy called again? Warren Buffett? Warren, exactly. Warren Buffett was famously called different rat poison squares.

So, thanks to this wonderful quote from Warren Buffett, who gave me tremendous amounts of inspiration, I thought it would be fantastic to get a shell for my node that looked like a poison box, you know, this filthy red bait box, rat poison, exactly.

And I've been badgering them for it for a bit, but of course, they were very busy, and eventually I said, look, if I can get some flaps from the community together to throw in some sets, will you build it?

And he promised it would, so that's how we got started, basically, I find a bunch of flaps who are willing to put in their stoshies, and Rick got to designing, I decided to logo, and thus I came involved in this project.

Very cool. And so, I've got two of you here, obviously, Rick and SF, and Lomi as well, how did he get involved? How did that work? Yeah, the infamous Lomi. That actually all started because he designed a box, the cash box that we had that holds your cold card, SD cards, and your seed plates.

And he designed one for himself, and I go, hey, if you want to sell those, I can mass print them, and I can give you whatever cut that you want. And from there, I was like, okay, well, you designed really cool shit, and I'm looking for designers to help me do more stuff.

Do you want to be part of the team? And he said, absolutely. And we worked out a deal, and now he's been on the team ever since, and he keeps designing more and more cool shit. Well, cool shit is what you guys do.

The amount of times that, like, I was just literally before I jumped on this, I was speaking to Bitcoin Q&A, and I was like, oh, yeah, I'm just jumping on with crypto cloaks. And he was like, tell them I fucking love the Triton, it's so sick, it's fucking awesome.

And I was like, yeah, all right, I'll let them know. Just yeah, everything on there, like I said before, it encapsulates this Bitcoin space, so much cool stuff. Like you said, the mounts and things like that, these kind of things that they're not obvious, they're not things that most people would really appreciate.

But when you're trying to protect your Bitcoin, and you have these mounts and these different things, they're so useful, there's so many different types of stuff that's available through you guys.

And it seems there is no limit to where you'll go, I mean, where do you see this all playing out? Like, do you have any projects that you have up your sleeve or any ideas outside of what I might have seen, or is it all top secret?

Oh, I mean, the biggest thing that we're doing now is we're going to expand a little bit into the 3D printing space in general, and really, since we're trying to combine 3D printers and Bitcoins all in the same space, right?

We want to get those Bitcoiners that have 3D printers. We're actually creating, I'll share the news, this will be the first that we kind of go live with it. We're actually working on our own 3D printer filament print.

And it's going to be a crypto cloaks 3D printing filament. And that's our biggest project that we're working on right now on the sidelines. A 3D printed filament, sorry, say that again, just so that I appreciate what you've just said.

Yeah, so you know how 3D printers use filament to print the objects? We're actually working on our own brand of filament that 3D printers will use. Very cool. Very cool. Yeah, I have to admit, my 3D printing knowledge is zero, other than I can know it can make cool stuff.

You could tell me. So the filament is what makes the products, it's like all the objects. Yeah, the filament comes on a spool. One kilogram spools are the most common and that's what actually feeds into your 3D printer and then prints out on the build plate and builds your object.

Okay. And so if someone's going to buy this through you, this is something that like they then attach their 3D printer and this is going to be branded by you and they can just buy it through your site in the future.

Yeah, exactly. So we're working on that. So that'll be actually really big. I'm really, really excited for that project. Is it completely Bitcoin related? No, but it also ties into the 3D printing space a lot where any 3D printer, if they want crypto cloaks and brand filament that is on the higher end quality, well, then we're

going to be able to give that out. We're going to have that option, which is, it's going to be awesome. I'm really excited for that one. Yeah, that's really cool because I think there's a lot of people who, there's like this crossover between Bitcoin and 3D printing, like a lot of people seem to be very interested in it.

I always look at it and I'm like, man, I want one of those fucking machines. They look so sick. I want to play around with them. And you have all the 3D gun printers and all these people and there's definitely this crossover.

So I mean, it's definitely something I want to play around with, but I always kind of look at it and I'm like, it's one of those things where you're going to have to have a really, really good machine.

You're going to have to really know what you're doing. And it's kind of put me off even experimenting. And I think that's a great misconception. I really do like there's 3D printers you can get that we pretty much push on our Telegram group or people wanting to learn that are $300.

And that's what everybody's getting to really just see if they are interested in 3D printing. I mean, $300 to learn about 3D printing and seeing if you actually like it as a hobby or something more, I think that's really a really good price point.

That's incredible considering what you can do with these things. Exactly. And so with something like that, you're still going to be able to produce the same sort of products as long as you're using a quality filament or is it a case of they just don't

have as many bells and whistles as maybe something that someone who's doing it all day every day is going to have. Yeah, I mean, my printers are generally $1,000, $799 if you want to buy the kit or $1,000 every build.

And it comes with a lot more bells and whistles as you'd say, you got auto leveling beds that do it all for you, it's just what you're looking for. But to learn, I always say get a basic printer and just learn on that, that's the best way to do it.

Yeah, I think that's probably the way with everything really, isn't it? Just get your hands dirty and start learning to use this stuff and I've certainly found that with just like fucking around building nodes and doing this kind of stuff.

Just get your hands dirty, make some mistakes, break some stuff and like don't obviously have too many funds at risk or trying to think too crazy, but it's a lot of fun. It's nice to get your hands dirty with this stuff.

Absolutely. SF, with you, were you already 3D printing before this or you know, did you already get this idea for this rat poison squared and then you got into it from that point? Well, to be honest, I did not have any experience with 3D printing at the least.

So, by the way, I switched microphones, maybe this is a bit better? Slightly. Oh, shut it down and test it to see if it is, because I do hate it when, like I feel bad when podcasters do a whole cast, I've seen it on Twitter all the time and all the audios

are recording or something's completely screwed up and you've moved the whole good one. I don't want that to happen. So, good? Fine. Yeah. No, because it's going to be, well, it already has been a great conversation getting to know you guys and I don't want to, yeah, I don't want it to be a shitty audio quality where people can't hear it.

So, give me two, three minutes and then I'll send you another link and we'll go from there. Yeah, sounds good. All right. Cheers guys. I'll speak in a minute. We're back. Can you hear me?

We are back. Back and live. We just wait for SF to come through. It does sound much, much better now. It's probably on my end. It's some crappy like Bluetooth earbuds. I bet you that was doing something with my phone, so I just wish my desktop with a headset, so hopefully we don't have that crap anymore.

No, no. It's good. I can hear you perfectly now. So SF, I was just asking before we had the audio issues, did you get involved with this 3D printing stuff after you sent these designs on the rat poison squared stuff?

Or were you already interested already looking into these things? Well, back to the audio stuff first. The only issue we're going to have now is my terrible accent. So I would have everybody listening can suffer through that.

I can hear you perfectly. But no, no, I wasn't 3D printing. I did find it interesting. I did follow the technology a bit, especially find it interesting that some 3D printers out there, but once you have one, you can basically print a new one altogether.

So yeah, I do find that technology is very interesting and I really hope we one day get to the replicators that are featured in Star Trek, but before, but until we get there, no, no, I didn't have one.

But once I got in contact with Rick and Lomi, yeah, they had a few tips for me and I managed to buy one on the cheap, and I've been experimenting a little bit. And I enjoy it, but it's not really something that I'm very good at, not yet, at least.

I can manage a few prints, I can get a thing to print fairly properly as well. But my specialty, speciality lies with graphic design mostly. And you're damn good at it. Thank you very much, I appreciate that.

I co-signed that message, yeah, yeah, there's some great stuff. And so where does Lomi fit into it? Lomi fits in by being another designer, design engineer that helps us design more and more stuff.

I mean, that guy has some creative solutions for either products or problems that we're looking at to solve and that's where he comes in. He's very good at thinking on his feet and figuring out things or products to come out with.

You need someone like that in a team like this, because it seems like you move fast. Yeah, and it's just getting faster day by day, I tell you that. Yeah, I think when the guys came up with a track on design, it was within a week that they had a first book, but I wasn't nice.

We cruised through that one, and honestly, that's probably one of my favorite products that we have now. I love it. It's fucking awesome. I'm really, really annoyed because I've just bought my third node case just before this was launched, and now I'm like, "Ah, God."

Now I have a problem already, there's going to have to be number four, and because it fits two, I'll end up having five. Right. So you're feeding the addiction. I'm so sad. I know. I apologize.

But man, it is cool having sit next to your gaming rig, and it literally looks like a little mini gaming PC, and you're like, "That's a Bitcoin node." This thing's fucking awesome. Yeah. It's so cool, and I like that there's the different configurations, and I've been playing around with it, and I'm like, "Ah, I don't know."

I really like the Whirlpool one at the moment. Oh, yeah. I really, really like that one, and I'm just playing around with the configuration, but one is going to be ordered. That is for sure.

It's really cool. I see with the fans in there, I think you've got the, is it the ice fat, I can't remember what it was called, I've just ordered one, the one with the different colors, then it really looks like a gaming rig.

Oh, I know, that cooler on the Raspberry Pi that literally looks like a huge gaming rig cooler. That's the greatest thing ever. Yeah, I've got one on one of my other ones, and I can't remember what it's called like an ice, ice something like that.

Ice tower. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really, really fucking cool. I love that. And so, the sort of idea of having the two in there, was that just like, "Ah, I'd just be cool to have two." Or, was that someone in the community that had something specific where they reached out and were like, "Look, I need this for a certain purpose."

Or, "How did that come about?" I mean, we've definitely been asked in the past to do multi-pi node cases, but to have two is technically for me right away. I mean, because I wanted to run two different node OSs in the same box, and I figured if I can build something that looks like a game tower, it would be pretty sweet to have two

different nodes in there. Yeah. So, I can run like Umbrell or my node, and then I have my separate raspy blitz in a lightning shell, and it was really just because I wanted Umbrell and my node in one case.

Right. Yeah. It's nice. I like, because the thing is, if you have these things all just laid out all over the place, like, you have all the clutter, like, I love that idea of, you said, having the multiple nodes, I was saying before this came out, I was like, "Oh, it'd be so cool to have

like a tower or like a stack of these things so that they're all in one place, and I think this just solves it in such a beautiful way." That'll be the next thing coming. I mean, I got, after getting two in one, the newest thing that people want is four.

Yeah. Like, Jesus. We just got to keep going more and more pi, so I got to figure out a way how I can get it to do multiple stackings, even past four, I think. I think we're going to make a server cluster nice.

So in about four, given another halving up to, and crypto clips will be printing server clusters. We just got a piece and raspberries all stacked on top of each other. 20, 20 to get back up to us.

I really like that. I love that idea. I love that we've got so many different things that you can do with these raspberries pies. I know it's really nerdy and geeky, but I love having the different designs of all this stuff as well, and as much as it is nice having everything just in one, like I do like

the idea of just having all these different designs on the desk and laid out, and like a block clock here and all these different things, and maybe it's an addiction, but some of the designs that are coming out of the Bitcoin space are just so, so interesting.

They're so different. Oh, I agree 100%. I mean, I got the block clock mini coming to the shop. I mean, that thing is badass. I couldn't afford the $5,000 one that I really wanted. So when it came out, the mini, I was like, all right, that's doable by.

And there's so many other things out there that I'm even buying. So I think it just goes back to having an awesome circular economy. What we're all building is I think everybody's just buying stuff in Bitcoin back and forth slowly but surely.

Yeah, you can just see how things are improving over years. It's crazy, isn't it? How long have you been involved in Bitcoin? I know, obviously, Ricky was saying it was 3D printing before Bitcoin SF.

Was it the other way around? Like, how did you find Bitcoin and how has that changed been for you? I was that pretty early on, I heard about it for the first time in 2011. And it took me a while before I bought some, and I made the brain move to buy some in 2013.

The problem is I was a slightly bigger idiot than I am now. I did not take the deep dive. I heard of it, I got on at my goals in May 2013.

I bought some, I did not, I did not bother to figure out how to do self custody. I had better things to do. Well, I was still studying and I had always had some part-time jobs. So, I didn't have a lot of income, but some Bitcoin didn't figure it out and of course lost it all.

Then I lost the bunch again on VCE, after which I basically worked for a couple of years. Yeah, it's been a ride. I've written about it the past few weeks and I had a lot of fun trying to figure out the exact timeline of how things went down.

My memory is pretty glitchy about it, but I did have some notes, I still have the registration emails from GOGS and a few confirmation emails from VCE, a successful memory and stuff like that.

So, I've pieced together the timeline pretty well and it's gonna be published, it's gonna be published later next week, I think, and the new issue of set it out 21. It's very cool. Yeah, it was nice of them to ask me to write it up.

Well, I will be having a read through that, but I'm sorry to hear that. That sounds like something I'd want to forget as quickly as possible and drown my sorrows on it, but it hasn't put you off by the sounds of it.

I'm still here and involved in one of the greatest Bitcoin companies that I've seen. Yeah, it's a lot of fun working with the guys from crypto groups, it's one of the best jobs I've ever had, to be honest.

Jesus man, that means a lot. Yeah, really, because I can basically do whatever the fuck I want. It's like doing a few jobs for anyone, I would think. Yeah, it's been a while right and when life happens, I mean, I've bised up a little bit

since 2013, 2040, I don't know how to get there, but I think my story is pretty, I think a lot of people went through it.

I got introduced by the ship coins in 2017 and 2018 over 200 different kinds, but yeah, the only thing you'll learn from being, which is that it's not worth the effort of trouble, it's better to just take with the king, which is Bitcoin.

And I think you can preach that as much as you want, but I think everybody has to go down that road at one point. As they all think, oh, I'm going to make easier money that way. I think everybody goes down that path.

Yeah. Yeah, well, it's one of those things, isn't it? No one wants to put the effort in, no one wants to spend the time and people just want quick money, easy money, and something that soldiers being easy and quick never tends to be, you can end up having your trousers down and people need to learn.

That's the nature of the beast, absolutely, people will find out for themselves and that's why I try to be somewhat dispassionate about what other people do. It's their life, it's their time, it's their money, do whatever you want with it, and your name, and if you don't, well, that's an evolution for you.

Yeah, yeah, I think you're absolutely right, but it does take some time. I mean, did it take you a while to get to that kind of zen place where you just accept that people are going to make their own mistakes and leave them to it?

Because, you know, for me, I found it really difficult to, I found it very, very difficult and still do just to shut the fuck up and leave people to it. I find it very difficult not to interfere and when I see friends saying to me, oh, I've just invested in this amazing thing because proof of work is never going to work because

it's this and it's that and I'm just like, are you stupid bastard? All you want to do is help them and sort it out, but have you just literally got to that point now where you're like, nah, leave them to it and get them done?

Especially when it's close friends, I really would love to see them put in a minimal amount of effort to try and understand the paradigm shift that is becoming, but I come off like a crazy lunatic selling some kind of religious code or something and I can't really do anything

for it, but when it comes to strangers, I think of the fuck, my philosophy is nobody has any choice of being brought into the world, coming into this world and having to deal with whatever reality they find themselves in, that they can damn well choose for themselves how they are being with it, so I'm all for that.

Yeah, let the selection process weed out the stupid. I mean, you can tell family and friends as much as you really want to, like don't get into shit coins, but it happens no matter what. I have family members that still invest in VeChain and all this other bullshit and I just

sit on the sidelines and shake my head, I mean, they'll learn eventually, it's just going to happen. VeChain, do you want to know a dirty, dirty secret? I invested in VeChain, yeah, I know, I fucking flog myself every night before I go to bed, I flog myself 20 times because the person who got me invested in Bitcoin also was telling

me about all the shit coins, he was like, yeah, tracking wine on the blockchain and it can do this and it can do that and BMW using it and I didn't understand any of this stuff at all, you know.

And I was like, yeah, that sounds cool, yeah, I'll chuck some money at that. And yeah, I can wholeheartedly say that that is an absolutely fucking bullshit project and they all are, but it takes time, it takes time.

Yeah, absolutely. You have to lose the money, you have to get burnt, you have to feel the pain and then eventually you get to that point, don't you? Where you're just like, well, Bitcoin's the only thing that matters for all the people who are working on it seem to care and, you know, I'm not sure because I don't dip my

toe into the shit coin land, but I can't imagine that they have products like we're seeing being built and communities like we're seeing being built and all this infrastructure being built.

It just seems like a totally different world, I can't see anyone who really, truly is like in love with this stuff, where you come into Bitcoin and people are completely spending their lives on this stuff, like everyone.

Yeah, they're like devoting their lives to increase Bitcoin and make it better. And it's pretty mind boggling when people think other side chains or shit coins are going to do that. Was that something for you, Rick, when you made the decision to come into this?

What was that? Was that you were like, okay, Bitcoin's really fucking cool. I want to keep building this stuff like I love 3D printing, I love Bitcoin, so I want to build this. Did it drag you away from other work that you were doing within 3D printing or were you doing something completely different?

No, honestly, 3D printing was pretty much my hobby. I was just printing off random cool shit like everybody else does and then really got into Bitcoin. And that's kind of where I wanted to bring what I can to the space myself and bring cool products that people want to show off and talk about or I always say Bitcoin is personal,

so Bitcoin nodes should also be personal. And I think that's a huge thing. I know a lot of people want under the radar Bitcoin nodes too, but the farther and farther we go down the line, I mean, if you can have a node that's a talking point that stands

out that you can show family and friends like, hey, look at this or what the hell is that on the shelf? And you're like, well, that's a Bitcoin node. And then you can, it's just your talking point that you can really start off and that's kind of what we're trying to do.

Yeah. Well, you're certainly succeeding with things like the Triton and some of the other cases you've got and, you know, they are talking points and that's the thing with 21ism when we're talking about design a lot of the time when we're having these discussions.

Not only is it, you know, how beautiful is the design, how much use is someone going to have this design, but also it's how much can this bring new people into Bitcoin and understand quite how radical and paradigm shift in this technology is.

And, you know, we had the Bitcoin Lightning 80M on previously and that was the thing where we're like, people are going to see this and be like, this is fucking cool. Like, this is something that I can use.

This is something that's going to attract new people into the space. And that's absolutely the same with all of your products. And like you just said, it is something that is going to draw the eye and have people questioning because you can spend your whole life bleeding on to no-coiners about, you know, this is the

best money ever and blah, blah, blah. You can go into all of that and they just don't care. You can show them a Triton case flashing away and they're like, that's fucking cool. What's that?

Yeah. Yeah. You need, they need physical or visual goods to really like get into it, I feel like. Like, if you can hold something in your hand or you can like look at a painting and it kind of like makes your mind start going, I think that's what you really need to get

more and more of these no-coiners to just be like, oh, that's fucking cool. Oh, that's Bitcoin. I guess I'm going to maybe learn about it because that was a pretty cool thing that you just showed me.

Yeah. It's bringing it into the physical world and so that people can see these things and that does so much more. And that's part of the reason for this art collective is we are saying like, okay, you know, massive respect to the developers with, you know, one of the things that we're really

focusing on, massive respect to all the techies, but also we have to try and showcase some of the art and design that's in this space because sometimes I don't think it gets as much appreciation as is necessary because it really is something that can push this forward.

You mentioned the art, people seeing a painting or people seeing a product and it really is something that draws people in and once they're drawn in, yes, then they can learn about how amazing this technology is and how are the amazing work the developers are doing and

why this is the best money, but they do have to be drawn in first and like I said, many times now in this podcast, you guys are doing it, it is mind-blowing, like you haven't been around for that long, but I look at the product range you've got, I look at the quality you've

got and it's seriously impressive. Yeah, I mean, artists and builders, I look at as we're the front runners of the marketing campaign. I mean, the ones are building the technology that make it run how we want and we're the marketers almost is we're trying

to make it as cool as possible because I can't code. I'll tell you that right now, I needed help when I first got my raspy blitz going up. Sometimes when my nodes crash, I got to go talk to lightning in the box and be like, "Hey, man, I'm about to lose a lot of money.

Can you help me save my node again?" I'll try to learn it myself, but sometimes serious shit happens and I'm like, "Well, I don't want to lose all these sats and get locked out. I'm not a coder." That's where I try to give back. I'm not a coder. I can't code.

I can't build anything, but I just build products in the space and design. That's what I'm good at. Yeah. SF with you, is it something you dabble in? Do you get your hands dirty with code? How far do you go down that side or are you really just focusing on the design?

Well, I wish I could code better. I do some CSS and some basic HTML, but that's definitely not where my specialty lies. I don't like it, especially if it's relatively easy work like

coding some CSS for the custom piece of checkout. That I do enjoy, but it's fairly easy to get a handle on that, but make it more complicated and I just have to spend so much time trying to figure out even the most basic stuff out. Yeah. It's coding is maybe something I would

take up in the future, but for now, only on very, very rare occasions and not only the simple CSS stuff, to be honest. So I have a lot of respect for the people that actually know how to get into the nitty-gritty Bitcoin stuff and can do anything from the command

line interface. So when I see stuff like the folks building the bloodstream satellite and certainly all this building stuff like chat over the lighting network, it gets me really, really excited and bullish for the future of Bitcoin, but I couldn't imagine doing that

stuff myself. Yeah. Well, I think you've got to focus on where your talents lie as well. And it's very easy to get distracted and sort of be like, Oh, I want to be a developer and I'm also an artist and I'm also a designer. And you know, you want to go down on these

routes, but you can't do everything. Yeah, of course, you have limited time. You can do everything that's absolutely right. But I must honestly say that there's a huge case to make for having a more general generalist view on things. To be able to at least better

put yourself in the shoes of someone who does something completely different than you do. So I've always tried and be more of a generalist than diving down into one subject only and specialized to the fullest. I think it was Darwin who once said, specialization breeds

extinction. If you, if you're specially specialized to such an extent in your small niche of whatever ecosystem you find yourself in and the world around you, you know, the rug gets pulled into some black swan event like Bitcoin or whatever, you're screwed. So a broader understanding

of how things function and interact with each other. I think especially in these days is something very valuable. I completely agree with you. And I have a theory that to truly understand Bitcoin and to truly be interested in this space, you have to have that view. First of all, I think people

have to be humble enough to understand what they don't know and also to be interested in enough in enough different things. To understand it, you can't just come at it from one angle. You have to come at it from many and have an understanding of you can't just come in

this and look at it just as money or just as code or, you know, just as game theory or just as one thing, you have to appreciate all of it. And I believe that there's a Bitcoin community I really do. And I feel that there are very similar traits that I see in the

Bitcoiners that I communicate certainly on Bitcoin Twitter and the type of interviews that I do that there are common threads that run through. And one of them is that you are interested in lots of things and willing to try lots of things. Because otherwise you wouldn't be here.

I agree 100% on that. It's a weird thing. But you know, a lot of us we're different in hobbies we have or the careers that we've had or certain views that we have. But there are certain things that link most Bitcoiners personal responsibility, willing to just say fuck off. I'll do my

own thing. I'm not interested in doing what everyone else does and willingness to just learn and just accept that we don't really know anything. And yeah, that's one of the reasons I just I love having these conversations. I love speaking to other Bitcoiners because

you don't see or speak to these sort of people in normal life or I don't come across them. Yeah, not at all. I mean, it's pretty much we're building fuck you money. And it's the greatest thing ever. I really, truly believe that after being here for so long now, it's

just it's how can you not like it? Fuck you money and we're building the future we want. Obviously you guys are full on Bitcoin as you put a business to make some of the coolest products that I've seen. You know, you're talking about fuck you money. What is it that

is shaping that view? Are you people who have sort of come in and you're now like, okay, we can create a new world, we can create a new structure and that what you're seeing around you and that what other people are accepting and rolling over for. Are you sick

of it? Are you looking for a separate world or a different opportunities? How are you viewing this thing going forward? I guess I guess for me, it's just you look around and you you kind of you kind of when you go down the rabbit hole, you kind of learn everything

about how the system is pretty much flawed to screw over the general population. And the further you go down that rabbit hole, you realize it all comes down to money and who controls the money supply? And then from there, you're just like, well, how the hell

do I get out of that system? And I think once once you understand that, I mean, you look at Bitcoin as you're you're one way out. I kind of look at the right now, the whole world is in turmoil and it's like all fucked up. And then I look at is like Bitcoin is

the one saving grace that we have a shot at actually fixing society and stuff. Truly like it's crazy. The more you go down the rabbit hole, the more you understand what Bitcoin can really do to everything. It can change the world and it's awesome.

Yeah, an SF, similar views or you're going to throw a curveball in here. So yeah, the crazy thing is I I honestly pretty early on that the incumbent money system was a rigged

game. And I don't really blame the people that print the money on a decide for all the rest of us how much of time and money is devalued every year. I see this these things

as emergent phenomena and the entire social is construct and economy. I think if you or I was born in a place, Steve Mnuchin is in now, we would do the same. I think humans are

more alike than that we differ. And yeah, I did this the way the system is has evolved over time. And with system, I mean, societies and the way money works. It's not really very surprising that it is the way it is. And I knew this pretty early on, but I did not have

a solution. And I do think it's not very weird that a lot of people will start to grasp at other ideologies. Like maybe we do need some central planning and some Marxist vision that will save the world or whatever. That's I can understand people leaning towards ideologies

like that, thoughts like that, because I myself at one time felt the seduction of these type of theories. But since I understand when I finally when it's finally clicked for me and

understood what Bitcoin is, how it works, why it works, and what it can do for individual freedom. This, when I once felt powerless to change anything about the way things about the incumbent monetary system, fractional reserve banking, all that stuff. And I'll

feel we have a fighting chance to circumvent all that. And even if some outside institution or agency or cooperation or government has strong opinions about how people should live their lives, they can do them about it. We can do it, please. We can, as long as we have

the internet, as long as there's ways to openly communicate and not get bogged down in absolutes, and as long as we can keep this crazy thing of Bitcoin alive, we've got a chance to at least give freedom to give people the freedom to decide for themselves what they want to do with their lives. And I think that's very powerful.

It's incredible. That is another thing that I speak to so many Bitcoiners on. And there's so much negativity in the world. There's so many people who are so fucking miserable. They have no hope. And when I speak to Bitcoiners, really, the message that I'm getting is just

Bitcoiners hope to them. And that's exciting. That is something where so many people, and I include myself in that before Bitcoin, I was so pessimistic. There's so much that was concerning me that was going on in the world. But I was like, well, there's no way

of me fixing it. What's the fucking point? I don't see anything exciting happening. There's no way to beat this. There's too much power in the governments. We're fucked. And then this came along. And once you wrap your head around it, it is world changing. It is mind-blowing.

And to have something that gives this much hope to this many people, I think is why we're getting this creativity, why we're getting so many artists being drawn to the space, so many creators being drawn to the space, so many people with revolutionary ideas being

drawn to the space. And I look around at the group of people I'm speaking to on Bitcoin Twitter, and I step away from it for, you know, a day, and I go and speak to normal people, and I go and see what's happening in normal businesses. And Jesus Christ is boring.

It's so boring. It's so depressing. It really is, isn't it? It's a different world. It really is. It is. It's completely different than the world that we're trying to, like, or the world that I'm pretty much the circular did now.

And they don't come to rat race or nothing. And that, when we're talking about the rat race, I think the way Buffett called Bitcoin Rat Poison Square is very, very fitting. But what he didn't, what he felt to mention was that all the rats are central bankers and Bitcoin

is going to wreck them. Bitcoin is the poison. Absolutely. It certainly feels like that right now as well. I don't know if you guys have found this recently, but normally when you speak to no corners, they will laugh at your ideas and they call you crazy. And, you know, the idea of saying, oh, the dollar is going to

fail and Bitcoin is going to be the world reserve currency and all the crazy stuff that we talk about in citadels. They just think you're a fucking lunatic. But this year... I think we're in cult, man. Yeah, well, yeah, exactly that. We're in a cult.

We're in a cult. But this year, have you seen a difference? Have people opened up a little bit more? Because, I mean, you turn on the news and you're like, well, this is pretty fucking crazy as well. Maybe these guys aren't that mad. Like, maybe this stuff could happen.

Have you seen a switch from people that you've been speaking to? It kind of depends. Some of the smartest friends I have still don't own any Bitcoin. And they're too smart for the real good, basically. Because if you go through a glance at it, it does look

like a scam. It doesn't feel like it can't possibly work. It needs a little bit more effort to finally sink in and click. And I get that a lot of people don't have the time to really take that dive, even when taken by the hand and shown. Look, if you just read this or

listen to this podcast, then four hours, two hours. Don't trust me. It's still difficult for folks. And then there are some other people who are more trusting of you when you say, "Listen, please, just take a look." If you don't trust, put a little bit into it. Some

folks are open to it. And maybe they would trust me if I tried to sell them a perpetual motion machine. I don't know. But yeah, that's the contrast I see between folks. But to find the tool, I'm not sure if the mood has really changed. I think for a lot of people, it would

really take new all-time highs and new FOMO. When everybody's grandmother's talking about Bitcoin again, we'll get the new group coming in. I'll ask you again in six months. Yeah, sure. So what I wanted to ask you guys about, because the Bitcoin fixes this meme

is one I thoroughly enjoy, but I'm a blunt realist. And I think it's great meme. And I think it works very well to get folks interested. But I don't see Bitcoin fixing everything, of course. What's your opinion about this?

Rick, I mean, I look at it as if you fixed the money, you fixed the world. I think Marty said it the best when he said that. Because it's true. Everything stems down to money. You go back and people are always like, well, it's not all about money. But it really is,

society has literally driven off money. So if you can fix the money, I think you can entirely fix the world. And I think that's where Bitcoin always will fix everything, because everything goes back to money.

But I'm a nit picker. And I find it lacks nuance. Because if you also think that power corrupts and a lot of money brings a lot of power, there are going to be some very wealthy people doing a lot of shady things. If the money is dollars or Bitcoin or yen or whatever,

I don't think that will change human behavior. From my monkey brain sort of way of looking at it, you know, I've only been involved for a few years. The best way that I can kind of describe it to people, as I'd say, is there's only really in the universe a couple of scarce things. And those things that humans have been

trading for money are time and energy. And we trade our time and energy for something that is continuously increasing in supply. And it buys us less and less. We're trading our time and energy for fiat money. And the only other thing that is scarce now and truly verifiably scarce is Bitcoin.

And I do think if people can get off that hamster wheel and people can trade their energy in time for something that is scarce and that they really control, it's not going to fix everything. There's still going to be a big wealth divide. There's still going to be

a lot of issues in the world. There's always going to be our souls who are going to take advantage of people. There's always going to be problems. But I do think it's a really good start. And like you said, I think that, you know, fix the money, fix the world is one of the best memes out there. And Marty's really nailed it with the haves.

Oh, we dropped down. I lost you guys there. Hopefully it runs back up. We're still recording. We're going to run the podcast now. Can I see that? He keeps going in. Yeah. Well, to continue the talk. What should we talk about? We're running this one. Yeah,

exactly. It's just a quick sticking over. This is a welcome to the Crypto Folks podcast where we're going to continue the story. This is the whole story podcast. And as if talking to you live from the next question. Welcome to the nerd castle. Exactly. So yeah, we're

bullish on Bitcoin and we're bullish on humanity. I at least am very optimistic about how things are going. And I do think Bitcoin takes us a lot of things. I lost. I lost you both there. Sorry. I don't know where we were we cut out. I think he's having a while.

Yeah. Well, we're sorry to say it is our podcast now. And we've kind of forced you out. So welcome to the next podcast. Thanks Max. What are you naming it? Let's use your podcast. Very nice. Yeah. I mean, take over. You'll do a much better job than me. Hopefully we don't lose shooting in. Where can I find it? We're like 45 minutes

in now. I won't even be able to remember all the shit we talked about. Yeah. I mean, I don't know where we got cut off there. Yeah, let's go. I think I'm hoping I can add to these types of channels. Yeah, like you said, I don't know where I don't know where the line is. And this Bitcoin fixes this meme,

I think is very reasonable. I think it makes a pretty good point though for a lot of things it does fix about that, but the world's not perfect. And I think that sometimes where people take too much of like they get into the nitty gritty and they're like, Oh, well,

you know, okay, it's not going to fix this. This is don't I'm not going to be perfect. I think we do have to just accept the world isn't perfect. The world is just chaos and well, all we can do as humans is try and create less chaos and a good life for us and the

people around us trying to regular chat. One second. One second. Max, can you hear me? I can hear you. Yeah, because I don't think Rick. He is you. Rick. No, I'm Max. Can you you there? I can't hear man. He's here again. So, okay, one second. I can see him, but it

but I can't hear him. Oh, he's gone again. Yeah, he just told me he's checking out checking in again to see if he can hear you. Yeah, I couldn't hear you. So that's not for like two minutes. And then me and I don't think so. I don't know what is going on, but I can

hear you now. Is S F. I'm not here. Rick at the moment. What the hell? I can't hear him. That's the best thing. He is. Yeah. Can you? I don't know what's going on here. This is. What the hell is going on? Well, I shouldn't. I guess Rick is out. No, Rick's SF. Can you

hear me? Yeah, I can hear you're fine. So Rick can hear me and so can you, but you can't hear each other. Yeah, exactly. And Rick went in and out the part. I don't know. I could hear Rick, but he couldn't hear you. Oh, my God. So that's weird. This is so weird. So

that's one thing Bitcoin doesn't fix. Yeah, that's one thing if Bitcoin does not fix is sound issues and what what I was going to say is I think this conversation has been awesome. Although we've had the audio quality issues and like I do my editing and we'll get some

good bits out of it. I've really enjoyed getting to learn a little bit more about what you guys are doing and how it was formed. I really am going to have to get you on to bit by bit the other podcast at some point when we when we have like clear audio stuff because you

know, we haven't been able to dig in as much as I'd like to. And some of the stories that you've started going down and some of the rabbit holes have been fascinating. To close this one out, I'd just like to say everyone at 21ism really is in love with what you're

doing. Everyone in the Bitcoin community as well. And we're very, very proud to be featuring you guys. It's it's an absolute honor to have you on the platform and there's seriously that means a lot. I mean, that's just motivation to keep me going. So thanks. I really appreciate

it. I wouldn't be anything without the community. I wouldn't be anything without the guys that I have. Thank you for having us. Thank you for this guy. I really appreciate it from everybody. I've been an honor to be invited and have a chat with you. And I would really

love to repeat it. Definitely. I feel there's a lot more we can talk about some some projects still in the world, some classifying about Bitcoin and what it will do for humanity and our near and long term future. Thank you. You're talking SF and Rick. I had you both

in my ear at the same time. You can't hear each other, but you both said some lovely words there. And I feel the love and like I say, I love the products and definitely I'll have you on bit by bit and we'll get a little bit deeper into all this stuff. Maybe grab a whiskey

or a glass of wine and go into this kind of stuff a bit deeper. But it has been amazing speaking to you and we will definitely catch up again soon. I really hope I can do something with this audio. Thanks, man. Absolutely. I'm speaking to you and I hope you enjoy your

evening and day and whatever time it is where you are later. I'm afraid to talk now. All right, guys. I'll speak to you soon. Yes. Thank you very much.