EP61 Bitcoin podcast with @econoalchemis

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Alright, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space, and deliver to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Welcome back, everyone. Today's guest is a Conno-Alchemist.

He has got some amazing guides on how to be more self-sovereign. Maybe you currently have your SATs on exchange or thinking of taking them off, but you're a little bit concerned. It's definitely worth checking out his site.

Maybe you already have those SATs off in exchange, but you're looking to update your security. Again, this is the place to go. Brilliant guides, and I really enjoy chatting to him. Before we dive in, I'd just like to say, we do a lot of talk in this episode about no KYC.

In fact, I pretty much do all of my shows. I do suggest that you go to a no KYC service if you can for all the reasons we're going to mention during this show, but I'm also realistic. I know that not everyone's going to do it.

It's not as easy. If you can't always get the liquidity, you do pay a higher fee, and for some people, they're happy to give their information. But if you are going to give your information, make sure you're doing it with a reputable exchange.

Make sure you're doing it with one that has good security practices, because if someone's going to hold it, make sure it's just them, and your information doesn't get leaked. So for that, I would suggest my sponsors, CoinFloor UK, they've got an amazing team, and it's the only one that I would suggest if someone's going for a KYC service.

If you want to check out their service, you can use the link below. If you're setting up a dollar cost averaging service and you use my link, you get a slight discount, and it also helps me support the show.

So thanks again for listening. If anyone has any questions after this, as usual, you can reach out, ask me anything, and if I can help, I will. Enjoy the show. - Hey, Max. - Hey, can you hear me?

- Yeah, I can hear you. Can you hear me okay? - It's a little bit reverberating. I can hear you though, but it's a little bit of reverberation. I'm not sure why. - Let me try something here.

Is this any better? - Yeah, that's a little bit better, actually. - Okay, cool. - That's better. How are you? - I'm doing good. How are you doing? - Very well, thank you. Very well. I've just, before the interview, been going through your website and reading a little bit more than I had previously, taking it all in.

And yeah, there's some in-depth stuff there, mate. It's, you've fallen down this rabbit hole very, very hard, haven't you? - Yeah, it's been quite the journey. Yeah, I am a little bit obsessed and there's just so much fascinating stuff going on in the world of Bitcoin and it's just really exciting

to get involved with it and figure it all out. - Well, yeah. I mean, I particularly like this approach, self-custody and censorship resistance. I like the no KYCM element. It's very much what we try and do here on bit by bit and try and help people to, yeah, retake control and use this technology the way it's supposed to be used

and I like how you're breaking things down and making this accessible for people because it's something that, you know, for someone coming in, especially non-technical people, it feels unachievable at times and I have a lot of people reach out and say like, "Ah, you know, you talk about all this self-sovereign stuff

and, you know, you say just do this and it's easy, but it's not so easy and how do I do it and where are the guides?" And this is where work from you and others like Bitcoin Q&A and 6102 and all these bits of documentation just make it accessible for people and it's incredibly important.

So I just thought, you know what, I need to speak to you and find out, first of all, what's pushed you into this space and why you're dedicating what looks like a lot of time to doing it because it's not a normal thing that people do and I love it when people do it.

So yeah, I just wanted to dig in and find out a little bit more. - Awesome, yeah, thanks. Yeah, I think there's definitely a gap in between like the developers who are making the tools and the applications work and the people that are using them every day and every once in a while, someone comes along

that can kind of help fill in that gap and sort of translate the practical application of these tools that are being made for us and explain to other people that don't have that technical understanding how to use them and like you said, there's finding really good guides for things that explain to you step by step by step

how to work with this stuff is it can be hard to come by and that was one of the first things that I found when I tried getting into this. You know, I'd be on GitHub a lot like trying to wrap my mind around like bit 39 or bit 44 and for someone who doesn't have that kind of a technical background, it can be really daunting.

And so even like trying to figure out how a hardware wallet works or even the concept of what a hardware wallet is doing can be a daunting task. And so yeah, the more I started learning about this stuff and figuring it out on my own, I just really wanted to document it and share it with other people

so that if they were interested in learning about it, the information would be there for them. And, you know, I try to keep it tailored to people that aren't developers. So I, you know, but some of my material does go through some technical steps, like I think PGP keys can get a little confusing or intimidating for people.

But, you know, I try to break it down step by step and show people like, look, don't be afraid of this stuff because you don't understand it. Like you can learn it, it's possible to do it.

It's just, it needs to be broken down methodically and it needs to be explained thoroughly. And if you have someone there who's creating content based around that idea, then I think people find it helpful.

And, you know, I think the more people figure out really the true meaning of permissionless money and censorship resistance, the more they're gonna find value in this and the more this kind of content is gonna come in helpful for more people.

- Definitely. I think you made a very good point there when you said, you know, it has to be step by step and broken down and methodical. You know, you're talking about creating this bridge for people who aren't so technical.

And what I found is it's getting better now, but certainly a couple of years ago, when I'm looking through the documentation that was often written by developers, they would miss out steps that were clearly so obvious to them that they didn't even think about putting them in because it's just literally like, it's like breathing.

They don't even think about it. But for someone like me who, I mean, I don't know what other way to put it other than is basically just to fuck with it, couldn't work it out. I couldn't find what that piece was.

And then I'd obviously miss that step and I'd be like, oh, I don't understand what's going on here. Like I'm getting an error or this isn't working. And then you'd spend hours or days reaching out to the community and asking people, and especially when you're new and you don't have all the connections yet,

it's really hard to find the right information. So breaking it down like you're doing, and like you're saying with this PGP stuff and all the stuff that I was reading through, it does make it accessible.

And I wish I had this sort of information when I'd first come in, because what would have taken, you know, back then weeks and weeks could be a day or two now. And it's just refining it all down and it is invaluable for people.

- Yeah, I think you have a good point there. Like I wish I had this information when I first started too. And it took me a long time to figure it out. And I figured, you know, I might as well just start documenting this because if it's taking me this long to go through it, I know other people are struggling with it too.

And so yeah, I try to just produce the information that I wish I had two years ago when I started getting into this. - Okay, so you came in from looking what you've done so far, I would have guessed you've been involved longer than that, if I'm honest, that's quick.

Like I said, you have fallen down hard. What was it that's made you go so quickly and so deep down the rabbit hole and get to the point where you are giving back to the community? Was it something that you were already, you felt you fitted with Bitcoin as soon as you heard about it?

Did you go down the shitcoin path originally? Or like, how did you find this or how did it find you? - Yeah, you know, really it comes down to freedom, man. Like I wanna be able to do what I want with my own money, but I'll lead into that.

So yeah, I didn't even, I had heard of Bitcoin, but I did not take a serious look at Bitcoin until December of 2018. And it was during the holidays and I was talking to a family member who was into cryptocurrencies.

And we started talking about Bitcoin and it intrigued me from the standpoint of turning a little bit of money into a lot of money, which is originally what I was trying to do. So like I've been working blue collar jobs since I was 15 years old and money has always been a point of struggle for my family and for me growing up

and that carried with me into my adult life. And so in December of 2018, I had like a couple of thousand dollars I had tried like doing day trading with stocks. And that didn't work out. I lost like one third of my money.

And so I only had this little bit of money left over and I was talking to my family member and he was like, got me very interested in Bitcoin and I started looking into it. And so originally I went into it with the intentions of trying to make more money and to put my money into something that wouldn't get compensated through inflation,

put my money into something that had a hard cap to it so that it had some scarcity. And so those are like the original concepts that got me into it. And the more I got into it and started learning about it I started with like the Bitcoin standard and Andreas's book on Bitcoin.

And yeah, I did do some shit coining. I was into Ethereum. But the more I started learning about Bitcoin that slowly but surely became the only thing I was interested in and there was so much going on with just Bitcoin that I couldn't even spend time focusing on anything else.

So at a certain point, probably six or eight months into it I just called it and said, you know, all I'm gonna focus on from here on out is Bitcoin. Like there's enough going on in Bitcoin just to occupy all of my time.

And so in February of 2019, my wife and I were at Ethereum Denver, which is a conference. And we listened to Caitlin Long and Tyler Lindholm and Jared Olson give a talk about the laws that they were passing in Wyoming.

And you know, at this point, I had like stopped sleeping, stopped eating. I was just starting my journey into Bitcoin and was completely obsessed with it and just absorbing as much information as I could.

We really wanted to start like a Bitcoin ATM business and we were really excited about it, really excited to be at ETH Denver. And after hearing them talk, we decided right then and there we're moving to Wyoming.

If we're gonna be serious about this and start a company, let's do it where the laws are most favorable and we can leverage those to our advantage. So in May of 2019, we sold our house and we moved to Cheyenne, Wyoming from Denver.

And once we were there, we quickly learned that although the laws they were passing in Wyoming were good for large institutions, they didn't really do much for small startups. And we lived in Cheyenne for one year and through that year, our business was rejected

by 12 banks in Cheyenne. So I couldn't even open a bank account and I had reached out to a bank like quote unquote crypto-friendly bank in California. We were rejected there and two quote unquote crypto-friendly banks in the East Coast and we were rejected from both of those.

So without being able to get a business account open, we were pretty stuck. And so I just spent the next several months in Wyoming learning as much as I could about the regulations and studying up as much as I could about Bitcoin itself.

And that's when it really fueled that fire to get to a place where I didn't have to rely on banks because I was already at the very beginning having trouble interacting with the world in a meaningful way because I couldn't open a business account with any of these banks because we had mentioned

that we were involved with cryptocurrency and blockchain and it was an immediate flag. And that was in our articles of incorporation. And so there was just no, which is part of the public record.

So there was no escaping that. And that haunted us with that business entity for, you know, until I dissolved it. And so after a year in Wyoming, we sold the house in Wyoming and then moved back to Denver.

And we've been here since May of 2020. And I've just been putting my foot on the gas since then and trying to get as much information put together for people about the importance of self-custody, what it means to have censorship resistance, what it means to have permissionless money,

the pitfalls of getting hypnotized by a number go up and the dangers of KYC. And it was really when Brian from Coinbase came out and announced that Coinbase was gonna be contracting with law enforcement, that's when I really pivoted away from my original business intentions

because we were, you know, planning on offering KYC services. And once I saw what Brian and Coinbase were doing, that really opened my eyes. And I kind of looked at KYC in a totally different light at that point.

And that's when I decided that I'm gonna, I dissolved the old business. I started a whole new business entity. And I'm trying to get to the point where I can start offering non KYC services for people to acquire Bitcoin.

So that's my long game, but in the meantime, I'm just trying to put as much information together for people so that they see the value in self-custody and understand the dangers of KYC. - Yeah.

Well, it's, what I find really interesting and what I've found doing this show and really going down the privacy route is that the more people I speak to, the more I realized that there's a common thread.

You mentioned there that you care deeply about freedom. You've just told me a story that's upset me because I've listened to it and I've thought, you're trying to open a business. You're trying to provide a service for people.

You're trying to do something entrepreneurial. You've moved to another part of a country, uprooted your life to go and do it. And then because of some twats with a pen and paper, making some stupid regulation, they've stopped you from achieving that and that pisses me off.

And I think it pisses a lot of people off and it pushes them to this no KYC self-custody, fuck the old system. We've got a new one that's better. We can do what we want. And at the end of the day, we win because they can't compete with it.

They cannot beat this system. They cannot compete with it. And all of the intellectual capital, all of the entrepreneurs, anyone who's doing anything interesting is starting to come over this way.

And yes, they can cause your life to be difficult for a while, but it only toughens you and makes you see that you don't want to play their game. And there's a new game in town and this one's better.

So, you know, how do you look at it in terms of the old system competing with the new system? And is it something that you would be trying to get involved in in any way, the old system anymore?

Or are you literally looking at a no KYC service and thinking, well, maybe I can do something with BTC pay and maybe I can do something within Bitcoin and completely cut out the old system?

- Yeah, absolutely. And that's why my moniker on my Twitter profile is burn the bridge because that... - Ah, okay, that makes sense. - That stems from Brian Armstrong's article where he was talking about building a bridge from the old system to the new and did that?

Like, my heartbeat is going faster now because I just mentioned that article. Like that article pissed me off so bad. Like, no, dude, the old system is broken. The Federal Reserve should be abolished.

There should be absolutely no ties between the old system and the new. The fact that there are people and companies out there trying to take a broken square peg and force it into a round hole, which is Bitcoin, it just drives me fucking crazy, dude.

Like, do not try to take the pollution of an old broken system and put it into this new system. Like, we don't need the old system. It's anyone who thinks we need to have any reliance on the old system is just fooling themselves.

Like, there is a new system. It is a better system. It is an all-inclusive system. It is a completely neutral system. Like, there's no reason there should be any ties back to the old system.

And so, yeah, when I say that I'm building a non-KYC exchange or not an exchange, sorry, on-ramp, a non-KYC on-ramp, yeah, there's, like, it's just a place to get rid of your U.S. dollar and acquire Bitcoin.

And there's no ties. It's a one-way road. - I like that. I like now that I know where the burn, the bridge comes from. And where do we get the Econo Alchemist? Is that because you were looking at this from the economic standpoint and you're looking at it as an alchemist seeing if, basically, we can adjust the properties of money

or, like, how did that name come about? - So, it's a really stupid little story how I came up with that name. I was, I wish there was a deeper meaning to it. I really do. - Lie to me. Just tell me a better one then.

(laughing) - The honest truth is I was talking to some of my co-workers a couple of years ago about the Bitcoin standard. And I was trying to explain to them who saved Dean Amusses. And I was trying to tell my co-workers that he's an economist and then he wrote this book.

And I kept stumbling over the word economist and it came out sounding like an Econo Alchemist. And so we just had a good laugh about that and you just would have had to have been there. But for some reason, the name Econo Alchemist just kind of resonated with me for whatever reason and I made it my Twitter handle.

- And it stuck. Well, it kind of has a deeper meaning whether you meant to or not, I think. And yeah, I like it. It had me thinking before the call. I was like, "I wonder what he's trying to say here?"

But that's good. - Yeah, and like we were saying before about literally burn the bridge, we don't need that old system. The thing that frustrates, I think, a lot of people who have got to that point is you hear people jumping up and down saying, "Oh, wow, this regulation's gonna go in our favor."

And this bank is deciding they want to invest or this person is just like, fuck off. Like it doesn't, it's so irrelevant. If you take a long enough timeframe with this, like, yeah, okay, if you're looking literally at just number go up and you only want to sell and make you profit, then okay.

But what you're trading back into is run by a system that has fucked us all apart from maybe like a very small percentage of people. I don't understand why anyone wants to do that because it's very clear now that we have one system that is fucked and burning.

The whole world you can see is on fire and all these regulations and all this crazy shit that's going on just forces out all the innovators to somewhere like Bitcoin because they can actually innovate.

They don't have their hands tied, they can actually innovate. And it's the first time where in my life, anywhere I've seen like stuff going on that really excites me and it's truly innovative.

It doesn't just say it on a poster somewhere. Oh, we're innovating. Like there is real innovation and it's real change and it's a real protest. And I sort of get baffled every day that more people don't see it and don't get it.

But I feel like it's getting closer. And like I wondered if you're seeing a change from when you got in a couple of years ago to today, are you having more people, those people you were trying to explain, okay, this is this guy safety in a moose.

This is what he's trying to say. It actually makes a lot of sense. Those people who maybe weren't interested then today, are they a little bit more interested or do they still have the same ideas as they had previously?

- Yeah, that's a good question. So out of all the people, out of all my friends that I've been trying to talk to them about Bitcoin over the last couple of years, I've really only had one friend take the orange pill and start getting into it.

And yeah, I'm probably like one for, I don't know, 10 or 15 friends that I've really tried to sit down and talk to them about the benefits of this and the problems that it would solve for them.

So yeah, I think a lot of people just, they either get overwhelmed or it just sounds too complicated or they just don't see the need for it or they don't see the potential for it. So yeah, I think a couple of years ago, it's when I first started getting into Bitcoin, I wanted like everyone in the world to get into Bitcoin.

And now I'm a little more reserved when I'm talking to friends and family about it. I try to just make myself available and be an open book for them. And if they have questions, I really try to explain their options and the trade-offs for the options and just give them as much information as they can to make an informed decision.

But I really like tried steering away from trying to convert people. I just try to be there for people who have an interest in it. - I think that's wise. And I found a similar thing with me.

I got to a point, you know, early days, you're talking about these moments where it clicks and you can't sleep and you can't eat and you're just obsessed. And, you know, maybe that only happens to a small proportion of us, but it happened to me.

And I became like a naggy, annoying dickhead, basically just going around to everyone. Just like, this is going to change the world. Like, oh my God, let me tell you about this thing. And please, please, you have to understand, like you have to see.

And it just puts people off. Basically, they're just like, oh, do you know what? I don't care, I just don't care. And, you know, they don't either don't have the time or even if they do have the time, they just want to go to the pub or, you know, they just want to watch the football.

They can't be bothered to do any research. And I think maybe it's just quite rare that people do take that deep dive. And, again, like I'm saying before, I see like a pattern emerging with the type of people I'm speaking to.

And it seems as though there's this common theme where people work it at that they always feel a little bit like, mmm, there's something not right. I don't trust the government. I don't trust the way that things are set up.

I don't feel that things are fair. I know I'm getting fucked, but I don't fully understand how. And then when you do understand it, you get annoyed, or I did, I got really fucking annoyed.

And I was just like, no, this cannot continue. I'm not having this. This is not the world I want for my children. This needs to change. And once you get that, once that clicks, I don't think there's any way back to just living a normal life, not thinking about Bitcoin, not thinking about the potential

and just going back and putting your handcuffs back on and going, yeah, I'll just go back to your old system. And I like that because I get to speak to people like you and lots of other people that just, I wouldn't have met in normal life.

Like I find that a lot of the people, just normal people who are pre-programmed by here, the BBC, and told what to think, it's hard to communicate with them. And it's hard to express these ideas and maybe they just don't, they haven't thought deeply enough about freedom and got annoyed enough about being controlled and restricted.

And maybe it's a personality type or the way that life is panned out for people. I haven't really put my finger on that, but it's definitely a common theme here. - Yeah, definitely. And I think a lot of people, of course everyone has money problems.

We can all use more money. And so everyone can relate to that. But it's like if all you're after is number go up and your intentions are to acquire Bitcoin so that you can just turn around and sell it for more U.S. dollars, then you really don't need Bitcoin to do that.

You know, go get GBTC, go get some grayscale, go, you know what? Like don't, you know, and so I think it's hard to like talk to those people about self-custody and censorship resistance 'cause that's not their problem.

You know, so like the people that really are attracted to Bitcoin for these deeper reasons and the reasons that you should be doing self-custody, they have like real hardships and they have real problems.

They've had their wages garnished from the government. So they understand what confiscation looks like. They've had a loved one who has a drug problem and who has gotten in trouble out on the streets, which could have been avoided using dark market services.

It could have taken that person off of the street and out of that situation. So they understand what it means to interact without having that bearer instrument, that bearer instrument of value on your person while you're going to do a trade with somebody.

So they understand the value of doing it from behind a computer screen, you know, and if you've ever tried to like open a bank account and been rejected or if you've ever tried to, for example, make donations to WikiLeaks and been denied by PayPal, then you understand censorship resistance, you understand the value of that.

And so I think when certain or another great example is like if you've been working all your life and you're still spending 110% of your paycheck and just getting more in debt every year and you're not able to have any sort of sustainable savings account that's meaningful and the purchasing power of the money

that you are able to save is just being disintegrated out from underneath you, then you start to understand the value of a scarce asset and if you've experienced all those hardships, then Bitcoin is like a no brainer for you, you know, but I think a lot of people that have maybe not had the hardships, the only problem they're dealing with

is that they want more money. So it makes sense that number go up is so popular. - For sure. And I'm pleased in a way that it does present itself as obvious to those people who have had more hardship and do think outside the box and do realize these things because I think they're the people that can change the world,

they're the people who see it for how it really is and what really needs to change. Someone who's already got plenty of money and had no hardship and has never really had to see how the world works or how hard it can be.

If they suddenly become very wealthy in the future and they have the ability to make change, I don't trust that they're gonna do it in the same way that the Bitcoiners that I've met will do.

- Yeah, the system works for them. If you go through life and you don't have any hardships like, good for you, the system works, but that's rare. Most people have some serious fucking problems.

And out of the number that I just rattled off, like a lot of those problems can be fixed with Bitcoin. - They can, and it sounds crazy to say it, but they certainly can. And it sounds quite extreme to say this, but I truly believe that the current system is literally it is modern day slavery.

And people will get annoyed with me for saying that because they'll say, well, it's a little bit different to the slave trade, how it was and all the rest of it. And I understand that, of course.

But what you're talking about with, you work your bollocks off and you're spending 100% of your income and asset prices are going up and up and people can't get on the property ladder. People are bound to their jobs.

If they do go to university or go and do some extra education, the cost for it is disgusting. And they are in this situation where they can't afford to take any time to actually take a step back and think or do the things that they wanna do and create what they wanna create.

And debt is something that just can consume people. And we're not taught how to manage it. It is a very, very easy thing to get in a lot of trouble quickly with debt. And at the end of the day, that's what they want.

And it doesn't just mean that you're then a slave to their money. You're also a slave to the way that you're supposed to think and the way you're taught in school. And all of these things, the whole way that the system is set up works for such a small percentage of the population and everybody else.

I really believe, just like you said, Bitcoin fixes this. Like it was really gonna enrich their lives. And it's a very exciting time now. Like it's very easy to be pessimistic about the world, especially with everything that's going on.

And like the whole place seems to have gone crazy. But do you feel that we have a good fighting chance? How do you see this playing out? And are you confident that Bitcoiners can turn this whole thing around?

And although the odds are stacked against us in many ways, do you feel that we win this? - I, you know, in a lot of ways that I think we already have, you know, I don't really foresee Bitcoin like changing the world in such a grandiose sense that like,

I don't know, I guess, I guess it's more like personalized. Like it'll change the world for the people who believe in it. And the future just kind of depends on whether you believe in it or not.

Like I, honestly, I think that what we'll see in the very near future is the eradication of cash and the rollout of central bank digital currencies and a continuing scyop against Bitcoin that convinces people they're buying Bitcoin when they're getting an IOU from PayPal or an IOU from Robinhood.

So, you know, I think a lot of people get confused and they think they're getting Bitcoin and these companies are just selling the idea of Bitcoin to them, but they're giving them an IOU.

So I think that'll continue. And I think you may even see like a white market Bitcoin emerge with some of these miners that are, some of these mining pools that are talking about denying any like blacklist to transact.

But I think in my opinion, the black market is always gonna dwarf the white market and the gray market is always gonna dwarf both of them. So even if a white market does emerge, I don't think that's gonna last for very long.

And I think it'll go away eventually. But I do think that like central bank digital currencies are going to be here to stay. And I think you'll have a world of people who like understand self custody and permissionless money and we're smart about KYC and we're able to actually get Bitcoin and hold onto it.

And those people are always gonna be successful and have a better chance of doing whatever they want and securing their freedom because the market for Bitcoin will always be there. I don't think the Bitcoin market's ever gonna go away.

But I do think that there will be like this whole other population of the world that doesn't even know what Bitcoin is but is now a debt slave in the central bank digital currency system.

So yeah, I don't think Bitcoin's gonna change the world so much that every citizen on earth is gonna possess some because I think in the mid-term, in the short to mid-term central bank digital currencies are gonna kind of sack that piece of the market.

But I do think for a lot of people that get it and a lot of people that have problems and recognize Bitcoin as a solution and the people that are smart about it, I think they're gonna have very happy successful lives living free and that's what I'm trying to get to.

- That's the goal, freedom is the goal. So for people who are listening and they're sort of thinking, okay, this makes some sense but maybe those people have bought on an exchange, they've KYC'd or they have some KYC's some without but they have it held with a custodian and they haven't taken that leap to being self-soffering

or maybe they're halfway there. - Let's try and make a case for them and explain why you're talking about maybe we'll have a white market and a black market and a gray market and my view has always been the black market if there is one, those coins will be much more valuable than the ones in the white market

because to me, those white market coins, well, you don't actually own them because they're on an exchange. You don't know if you actually own them or if they're re-hypoticated and the ones that are not KYC'd, the ones that are mixed, the ones that are in your custody to my mind and clearly to yours are more valuable.

So how would you explain that to somebody who is thinking about making that leap but they're a little bit scared? What would you say to them? - Well, I think the first thing I would say is that self-custy is not scary and not to feed into the fear, the uncertainty and the doubt around taking control of your own keys.

It's something that anyone can do and there's a lot of benefit to it. If, you know, I don't know of any regulated exchange or any exchange period that has the FDIC insurance or the, what's the other one, the SIPC insurance.

So, you know, if you're trusting a third party and you've got your life savings in that and numbers going up like crazy and you're a millionaire overnight and all your dreams are coming true and then the owners of that exchange go on a honeymoon to India and die and they have the private key.

- This is the Canadian exchange. - There's no, what are you gonna do? There goes all your dreams because you trusted someone else to hold on to them for you. So, you know, Mt. Gox is a great example that Canadian exchange, I forget what it was called, that one's a great example.

You know, if there was just an article about even the issuer centra of the US dollar coin, USDC, they like froze $100,000 of someone's USDC coins because that address was blacklisted and it's like, dude, as soon as you give control

of your money to someone else, you're subject to their permission. And if you're just in it for the money, that's great and all, but you are potentially going to be an IOU millionaire and I don't know about you, but if I'm a millionaire,

I do not wanna have to ask permission how to spend my own fucking money.

And yeah, so like, what's the point in being that rich if you can't do what you want with your own money or if you have to ask permission or if it's still tied into this system that is broken and hasn't served anyone all this time.

- Yeah. - So yeah, I mean, I just think that like giving your money up to a third party is a bad idea in my opinion because I don't wanna have to ask permission to use my own money and I don't know, to each their own.

Some people may not have a problem with that, but you should really take some time to think about it if it's a life altering amount of money. - Yeah, I completely agree. And so for that person who has now been converted, they've listened to you and they've gone fuck again.

He's coming out with some good points here. I like this like, yeah, I could lose all my money. It's not insured, that would be a shame if I lost everything that could have changed my life just because I couldn't be bothered to read through an article and take a day to take self custody.

And they've decided they wanna do that. What would you say is the best way for somebody to take control of their keys? I know from your featured post, you had a block mitt and you had the stamping kit and you had a cold card.

And obviously the dice rolls to make sure that you get the entropy right. Like, do you think you have to go more complicated than that? Or do you think that's a pretty damn good setup for somebody?

- Yeah, I think that's a good setup. And you know, the first thing I would ask the person is to think about the implications of their KYC information being tied to those coins. And if their coins are on an exchange that they bought through KYC means, they should really understand the implications

of that going forward. And at that point, they should decide if they're okay with those implications and move the coins off of the exchange into their own custody or sell the coins back the way they came in and use that cash to acquire the same amount of coins through a non KYC means like this.

And if they can just make that choice, do I wanna move forward with KYC or without KYC? With the goal of self custody. - Just one thing I'll jump in with there is, and I do get asked this question, a fair amount is, people will say, okay, if I'm going to make that decision, and really like it's three decisions,

it's either take it off exchange, do nothing with it, put it on a cold card, take it off exchange, put it through something like Samurai Whirlpool and get forward looking privacy, then put it onto a cold card, or sell it and rebuy it like you're saying.

The third option, one issue and one question I get a lot is, well, what about the tax implications? Because if I am to sell it now, and if it's gone up in value, or even if it hasn't actually, you're gonna have to pay capital gains on that, you're gonna have to pay taxes on that, and that can be a hell of a lot of money.

So that is one sort of point which is difficult to answer, and it's difficult to really say, I guess it's an individual thing, but I guess the thing is if you are to take it off and put it through something like Samurai, and you do things properly, at least you do have the forward looking privacy and there are ways to sort of,

yeah, it is better than not doing it at all, but I wanted to hear your views on that. Like, what would you think and how would you approach a question like that? - Yeah, I think it really comes down to each individual person's goals and what they're trying to do.

And I guess what kind of problems they think they might have with KYC in the future. So if your goal is to avoid the, IRS or whatever branch of your government collects the taxes, if your goal is to avoid having them come after you in the future because they know that you have Bitcoin,

then I think that selling the Bitcoin in a fashion that is provable, like through the exchange it came in on is a good way to prove that you sold the Bitcoin and prove that you don't have it.

If, you know, just so everyone understands, no amount of mixing is going to erase the fact that you bought X amount of Bitcoin on Y date, right? If you did it through a KYC means. So you can take your KYC coins and mix them and that's great and you have forward looking privacy and now when you spend it with vendors,

they can't look back through all the transaction history leading up to that. That's great. But if your goal is to ensure that the government is never going to come after you for those coins, I think you have to understand that you've now put yourself in a position where technically the government can't prove

that you own the Bitcoin because it's been mixed, but technically you can't prove that you don't own that Bitcoin either. And so I just wonder like how much proof of ownership is really going to be an issue if it comes down to that.

And that's why I think it's better to safeguard yourself and sell through an exchange and have proof that you sold that Bitcoin. Because once you have the proof, like that's a dead end for them.

It's a pandemic right now, times are tough. I had to sell that Bitcoin so that I could get through 2020 and 2021. I had to put food on the table. I sold all that Bitcoin and that's it, end of story.

They don't know that you're taking the cash to Bisk and sending it to somebody through your payment app and receiving Bitcoin in exchange for that on the back end. So yeah, I think you sell the Bitcoin to prove that you don't own it and then that's a dead end for them.

And then take your cash, do a transaction on Bisk, send it to somebody and receive non-KYC Bitcoin and then throw that through Whirlpool so that you have the forward-looking privacy. And now you've moved the funds out of KYC.

You've proved that you sold them and now there's no proof that you own Bitcoin. But you do have proof that you sold it. And as far as the taxes go, like you said, this creates a problem where, well, if I'm selling my Bitcoin back through the exchange, then the exchange is going to report those sales to the IRS

and the IRS is going to expect me to report that on my taxes. I don't know how it works in other countries, but in the United States, I think the capital gains tax is like 25%. But that's the statutory rate.

For example, last year, my statutory rate is 25% tax. But after all my deductions and allowances and settling everything, my actual tax rate was like 7%. So it just depends on your situation, the amount of interest you're paying on loans and other debts and how you structure your taxes.

But another idea, I think one potentially could establish an LLC and interact with the world through their LLC, one to safeguard their privacy. And then two, if someone decides to sell Bitcoin through the exchange, then they can take the money from that Bitcoin

and make a charitable donation to this LLC. And then at least the person isn't responsible for those capital gains taxes anymore because they donated the money. And companies have more rights than people have.

So a company is going to have much more tax leeway to deal with that tax situation than an individual is going to have. - What a crazy world. - Yeah, I think if I came to the realization a while ago that it is really difficult to interact with the world in a private way.

And a person can use a registered agent to register an LLC and then they can get a PO box and then they can open a business bank account. And then there's only three entities that have their name and address.

And all three of those entities will require a warrant for anyone else to inquire about that business entity. And then you have a bank account, a business bank account with the business's name on it, not your personal name.

And you have a PO box with the business name on it, not your personal name. So that way you can start interacting with the world in a private manner and it just opens up a whole new realm of possibilities for you.

It makes a lot of sense. And these are the things that you learn. These are the tools that you can use to regain your privacy. And it shouldn't be something that we have to regain. We shouldn't be something that people are forced into this position, but they are.

And that's why it's so useful to have this community to help people and explain to people and give them the best options available. Because I think very, very few people come in to Bitcoin already, like, right, I'm not gonna buy KYC because of X, Y and Z.

I'm gonna take these steps to preserve my privacy and I'm gonna have a burner and I'm gonna do this. Most people come in, like you said, four numbers go up. They buy on an exchange 'cause it's the first thing they're told about and exposed to.

And then they learn as they go along. And it's very useful to have people help and explain and take the time to make it possible for them. - Yeah, absolutely. I really wish I had the wherewithal to listen to someone who was talking about the dangers of KYC when I first got started.

You know, the only thing that mattered to me at that point in time was that I got my hands on some Bitcoin. And I was willing to give anyone and everyone my identification and do whatever I needed to do, to take whatever stupid selfie with my ID and do whatever I needed to do to get the Bitcoin.

That was my goal. I didn't even think about. I couldn't even fathom the dangers of KYC when I first got started. And I really wish I had heard that message from somebody at that point in time because if I could do it all over again, I would do it very differently.

- I think we all would. I think we all would. And that's all that we can do is try and advise people in the future and, you know, with your website. And the thing is that you're doing is something really helpful for people to read through and learn about.

And yeah, I hope people listen and take that on board. So if you've now got through again and that same person who wasn't an exchange has now sold on the exchange and they've bought through something like Bisk and they then use something like Samurai to get that forward-looking privacy, what's the next step?

Like, ideal world, if this is to somebody life-changing money or it could be in the following bull run, what would you suggest for them to store and hold their seed themselves? Would you say cold card and use the block, mate, and use something like that?

Or I actually saw you did something with the HODL disc, I think it was called. What's the trade-offs there? Like, what can you tell us that you would say to someone, what is the best thing for them to do?

- Yeah, definitely. And I probably should have said this at the beginning, but just so you and your listeners know, like I am not paid by, sponsored, compensated in any way from any of the companies, products or services or developer teams that I talk about.

I'm not associated with any of them. All of the content I put out on my Twitter threads and on my blog is, none of that is a shill. It's just me talking about the stuff that I've used personally and trying to be an open book for anyone who cares to read it.

So that being said, yeah, I like cold card. I think the cold card is a great hardware wallet. I really like the fact that it does not have to be connected to a computer at any point. That being said, obviously, when you self custody, you're gonna have to manage those 12 or 24 seed words.

And I think the best way to do that is to put them in a durable, medium-like metal or stainless steel. And that's why I really like focusing on any kind of stainless steel backup because paper is just, it's not robust enough for a life-altering amount of money, potentially.

So yeah, I think someone who is self-custing should have their seed words in metal, preferably stainless steel. The block-made 3D printed jig that you can get from crypto cloaks or that you can download the file and print yourself.

Dude, that thing is awesome. It makes a really clean backup that's easy to read. So that's great. The hodl disks, those were really cool. I liked messing around with those. I got a couple more that I'm gonna be working on to coming up soon.

And what else have I done? The seed plates from Coinkite, those are great. Trying to think of what other metal backups I've done. My first metal backup for my own use was just like a piece of quarter-inch steel, just a plate that I had stamped the words into.

So you don't have to spend a lot of money to have a very secure backup. And then think about how you're storing that metal backup. Are you keeping it in a safe? Are you burying it in your backyard?

What are you doing with that? How are you securing that? Making sure no one is gonna ever see it. And then, yeah, as far as cold card goes, I think one signature wallet setup with cold card is very sufficient and safe, but each user needs to assess that risk for themselves.

Honestly, I've never really messed around with multi-signature wallets, but I can see some benefit to that. If your game plan is to have like multi-jurisdiction, Bitcoin spread out like in different jurisdictions.

So in case one government tries to confiscate it, then it's much harder for them to get within the borders of the other government to confiscate the other wallet that's required. So yeah, I can see some benefit to it there, but I mean, one of my points about multi-signatures, that there's billions and billions of dollars of Bitcoin

that's sitting in wallets, it hasn't moved since 2009, 2010. And none of that is in multi-signature wallets. And everyone knows the addresses of those mining rewards. And it's out there in the public, like, I don't know how much, how much complication are you gonna add to your setup for like how much added security?

Like, it seems to me if anything were going to happen, it would happen to those addresses that have been sitting there with 50 Bitcoin in them a piece. But then again, I just, I don't, I haven't done multi-six, I don't really know enough about it to really formulate a strong opinion.

But if you feel more secure doing multi-seid, like go for it, but you are adding complication to a system that's already very secure, is it really worth it? I don't know. - Yeah, I tend to agree.

I've not messed around with multi-seid yet either because basically I don't see the trade-off being there for me yet. Like, I'm more scared that I'll fuck it up and lose access. I feel more comfortable with single-sig.

And what I would say like to people who were like, "Ah, no, I kind of, I like the idea of it." Then yeah, great. But there is a sort of middle ground and that middle ground for me is, well, if you really have enough money in there that you really are worried about having it on just one cold card, why not have two,

have half in one, half in another, have a 25th word on both of them and keep that in a separate location. So you have four locations, one for your 24 words, one for the 25th word. And then at least the risk is split and if something was to happen, you lose half.

And there are these things that you can do which just split your risk and make it a little bit more secure. And what I really loved was the fact that you're doing the stainless steel washers.

A lot of this stuff that you're, if you're buying that's like made by a company can be really expensive and it is a barrier to entry for people. But you're looking at this, it's like, okay, you need a lump hammer, you need the stainless steel washers and a block mitt that you can print yourself or buy for basically nothing.

And you've got an incredible setup there. So it doesn't have to be expensive and it doesn't have to be complicated to have incredible security. - Right. Yeah. And you just want to make sure that you're securing your metal backup in a manner that no one's going to have access to it.

And same with your cold card and, but yeah, you know, that's a, I think it's a great setup and it's very manageable. And if you can get to that point from zero, then if you're interested in multi-sig, I'm sure it's not that much of a leap to go the extra mile, but I would recommend

that people don't go from zero to multi-sig. I recommend they understand single-sig first and then make a decision about whether they want to go to a multi-sig. - Completely agree. Well, listen, we've just gone past the hour mark.

It's been a fascinating conversation. I've loved learning about what you're doing and really learning about why you're doing it. And that's always a fascinating thing for me because clearly you spend a lot of time and energy on this.

And I'm really grateful that you do because without people like you doing this, the game doesn't move forward. People don't have the access and it's incredibly important. So thank you for everything that you do.

But before we close out, is there anything that we haven't covered that you wanted to or anything you can tell us about your service that you're setting up, this non-KYC service or anything that possibly I've missed out?

- Well, as far as the non-KYC on-ramp I'm working on, like, you know, I've been chipping away at it for two years. It's just my wife and I. So, you know, it's not like we got startup funding or anything.

I'm just a regular guy. I have a nine to five job. I have a wife, I have kids. So everything I'm producing is in my spare time. So don't expect anything soon is what I'm trying to say. It is something that I'm working towards and I'm trying to figure out how to make it as simple and small scale as possible.

But I just think that there needs to be someone out there, there needs to be more people out there pushing for non-KYC on-ramps and trying to develop them. And even if I can start something super small and just put that option out there for people, I would be happy enough with that.

You know, I'm not, I'm gonna be fine financially and I'm not trying to become a millionaire off of my little startup project, but I just, I think it needs to be there and it's something that I believe in and I think there should be more KYC options available, sorry, there should be more non-KYC options available to people.

And so I'm trying to be that change that I wanna see in the world. - I like that. When you do get to that stage, when you have got a product you can release and you can offer this to people, just let me know, I'd love to have you back on and talk about it and make people aware and anything that is no KYC,

anything that's helping people get their hands on no KYC Bitcoin in an easy way is okay by me and I'd love to speak to you again about it. - Yeah, absolutely. - Cool. All right, well, thanks again for everything you do.

Thanks for coming on and it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you. If you ever find yourself in London, give me a shout, I'd love to have a beer or a whiskey with you and chat some Bitcoin.

- Yeah, that would be great. Thank you, Max, it was fun. - Cool, all right, take care. - All right, you too, thanks.