EP65 Bitcoin podcast with 21ism

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah! Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Alright, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space, and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Welcome back, everyone. Today's episode is a little different.

I have the whole of the 21ism crew joining me today. As anyone who's checked out 21ism knows, we support some of the greatest people in the space, artists, developers, memesters, videographers, all sorts, musicians.

And we've had some unbelievable people to represent so far. If you haven't checked it out already, go on to 21ism.com. We have a new block coming on the 5th. So before you miss the current block, go and check it out.

It was an awesome catch-up. Always love chatting to these guys. I love working with these guys. Unfortunately, we lost the last 35 minutes of the recording. I had some real issues using the fucking Zoom, which I don't usually use.

So you just have to trust me that we made some excellent points in that last 30 minutes. And yeah, sadly, you don't get to hear it, but just trust me, incredible points from all of us. Enjoy.

- Welcome, everyone. We've had some audio issues, as is usual with bit by bit, but this is a very exciting show for me. I have the whole of 21ism crew here. And yeah, we want to just dive in.

We've never done this before, but I've been saying for a while I want to get you all on because we work closely together every day. We celebrate some of the best artists, developers and amazing people in the space.

And some of you here, all of you here probably bar me also are very, very creative, very talented people. And a couple of you have been on already, but some of you haven't. So let's do a quick roundup and introduction.

We'll start from the left. So Mr. Crown, the intro, please. Yeah, I know. Yeah, caught your guard there. - Yeah, intro, Mr. Crown, known from 21hado, master behind the website of 21ism. - Yes, quite the master and badas.

- Hello, badas. Reform, sort of metropolitan, sort of creative, living in Forest Citadel in the South France. I love Bitcoin. Yay. (laughing) - I have rebel money. Yeah, I've rebel money and I'm the token Welsh dude.

They wrote it in really just to get the quota up. So yeah, I'll just hear just a talk shit really and to learn more about Bitcoin and celebrate everything artistic around the space. Excellent, self-banked.

- Yes, hi. I started to meme about 18 months ago and it's become an obsession as is Bitcoin, as is 21ism and I'm loving the journey and it's great to be part of this with you wonderful people.

- Excellent and MTC. - About here. (laughing) - You guys, it's too much. - So good evening, chaps. Good to be here. Rebel money and I are probably the newest additions to the team, but yeah, great to be part of it.

I've only done one interview so far with our man, Fractal Incret, which is yet to be released. It's not as easy as it looks into being people, is it, Max? - No, it is not, especially. (laughing) The main problem for me is the technical stuff.

I don't think I've had one that hasn't had a glitch yet so we'll see how this one turns out. The 21ism stuff has been easier, actually. It's been easier 'cause I have the support of everyone else and it feels, I don't know, I feel it's more exciting than doing the stuff myself because I get to speak to everyone else,

get the input from everyone else and we've had some fucking unbelievable guests. It has been mind-blowing for me. Like when I look back a year ago, starting the podcast and really trying to find my feet, the idea of speaking to the people that we're interviewing now, getting the guests that we're speaking to now,

I would never have believed it if you told me a year ago the people we'd be speaking to. And yeah, it's just, it's incredible to be celebrating this community and being able to do it with a group of friends and work with them.

So yeah, it's been fucking awesome. - Can I just start off with a little bit of confrontation? - Go on. - Max, you're a fucking liar. - Go on. (laughing) - What am I lying about? - You're heralding all of us for our creativity and doing the humble thing.

And meanwhile, we're looking at one of your beautiful paintings in the background. - Nobody should believe a word that comes out of your mouth for now on. - That last bit is true. Nobody should believe a word that comes out of my mouth.

Definitely fucking don't do that. - He's a very talented painter, everyone. - Thank you very much. That's very kind of you to say. - Can we find your art online, Max? - Can you? Not yet, because my website is disgusting.

You can find it actually on bit by bit on my bit by bit website. There is a little art section, but it doesn't show it in the best light. So one day I'm going to get Mr. Crown very, very drunk and get him to help me.

That's my plan. - Is the art Bitcoin related or other stuff made? - Yeah, yeah. Some of it is Bitcoin related. The last two pieces have been Bitcoin related. There's more to come. - Are you selling it?

- I try to. Only for that. - But we're not here to talk about my art. We're here to talk about the incredible artists that we've had on and what's going forward with 21ism. And I think what's incredible is the amount of talent that there is out there.

And I think, you know, when I've not been involved for as long as self-banked and badders, you know, it all started with you two and then me and Mr. Crown jumped in and then the MTC and Rebel Money have jumped in.

And it's growing quick and it's something when I first jumped in, I sort of thought, I was worried, are we gonna find the talent out there? Are we gonna be able to continue to find incredible work?

And are we gonna be able to keep up with it? And it almost feels too easy now because there is so much stuff out there that is like world-class. It's amazing. So how do we, I don't know how to put it, like how do we find so much talent in such a small industry?

Do we think that it's just luck? Or do you think it's actually because we've got some very, very smart people here and we're on to something? - Yeah. And so people have something to say right now and art is the medium through which an awful lot of them are choosing to express themselves.

And they're very, very passionate about what they have to say. So there's some great voices. And we just wanna put a microphone in their faces or a camera on their art. - And what are we saying?

Like what's the Bitcoin space saying right now because there's a lot going on and I feel like there's many common goals but there are some threads in there that seem to be really at the forefront, really at the front of everyone's minds at the moment.

What are we thinking is the biggest themes that are going through the Bitcoin space at the moment? - Freedom. - I like it. Freedom. What's next? Freedom number one, what's next? - Well, there's so many things that are going on, right?

There's some underlying sort of tenets of Bitcoin that keeps on inspiring these incredible people to do incredible things. But while I'm getting more from the creativity, isn't necessarily any particular topic within Bitcoin that is trying to be expressed.

Of course it is on individual occasions but to me it seems more that Bitcoin is the driving force for the creativity. So it's sort of like there are all these people and I think like that the space is full of remarkable people.

And in my experience with remarkable people, remarkable people are usually difficult people as well. You know, contrarians and sort of people that are visionary and have them, you know, they're a sort of eye on the price and they know what they want, whatever.

I think it's a certain personality type that is attracted to Bitcoin. And I think once they discover Bitcoin that releases something in a lot of us. - It inspires us. - Yeah. - Yeah, just today, self-banked, you sent me something that you've created and it fired me up.

That video clip, that sort of fuck you. We're not going to allow the bullshit that's going on in the world. We want something bigger, we want something better and we're not standing for it.

That rebellious streak that I think is in most Bitcoiners is sent my hairs out the back of my neck just all tingling like it makes me think for the first time in my life, I'm around a group of people who can change the world.

And that sounds really fucking arrogant but I believe it. I believe that the people who we're spending our time with the people that we're representing, the people in this space are truly remarkable.

What are we seeing in terms of projects or people that are really exciting us the most? And maybe if I start from left to right and Mr. Crown, what's really exciting you at the moment? - Oh, I'm not prepared for that.

- I know, I'm going to keep catching you off guard. Don't relax. (laughing) On this moment, art wise, I'm really curious about the podcast with Freto. 'Cause what I've seen on the Twitter feed, it's really awesome.

- It looks incredible. I'm also very much looking forward to that. And Badas, what's exciting you most at the moment in the Bitcoin space? - Well, the Bitcoin space, I'm going to have to go a bit more macro then in that case.

I'd say a strike, man. I can't wait to get my chubby little mitts on that. It's going to be a little while, probably before they open up here, where I am. But fucking hell, that's a serious game changer.

And I can't believe, like, that's the thing about this space and I suppose technology more generally, generally speaking, but it just fucking, it doesn't exist. And then all of a sudden it's right there.

Boom. - And another game changer comes along. And what it's going to do for the normie and the way it's going to really put a lot of big, established payment companies, et cetera, on the back foot and really have to provide some serious value.

Anyway, that's exciting. - We don't have to be too quick on these things. Let's dive into it a little bit. What do we think about the Lightning Network? I think a lot of what we're, I see the vision of 21ism, a lot of talk is about the Lightning Network, how we can integrate our ideas and use it and strike just goes to show how powerful

this technology is. - Sphinx is another one, right? - If the Lightning Network can do that, if someone like Jack Mallard's can come along and not just marginally increase the ability to send money around the world but completely flatten everyone else, where's it going?

Maybe rebel money, you have some thoughts on this. - It's just, I don't think anyone's truly comprehended. The fact that Lightning Networks can have on everything, just to give a few examples of perhaps something you're experiencing at the moment, maybe artists, for instance, musicians,

they're gonna get micro-payments on every single song that goes out. It is even things like when you get paid for a job, you could be paid in seconds, minutes, et cetera. It did so much flexibility with that.

I was recently talking with Jay Scriller around where NFTs and how that is coming to Bitcoin. These are currently, obviously, it's been hijacked by another shit coin that shall not be named.

But it's on its way, and by the sounds of it, within the next three to six months, we're gonna be seeing a lot of art that is being tokenized on the Lightning Network. So it's just, it's such an exciting time to be alive at the moment.

It really is, and with all these technological innovations, I think, as an artist, there's a lot of hope, and there's a lot of new ways for you to get your art out there and to get paid as an artist as well.

- I think one thing that's really excited me right from the beginning with 21ism was the fact that we're celebrating artists. The fact that we're celebrating people that I think a lot of the time in the world has not overlooked but under-appreciated.

I think people take art for granted because it's everywhere all the time. It's all around us, and if you take it out-- - It's a certain level, right, yeah. - Yeah, and it's almost made out like it's an easy life, and it's not, it's fucking hard.

For most artists, it's very fucking hard, and to celebrate that is exciting. And to break down these barriers, which is what you're really getting out there, Rebel Money, is breaking down the barriers, taking out the middlemen, taking out the gatekeepers, and allowing artists to connect directly

with the people who wanna consume their music, who wanna view their art. And if someone wants to donate or contribute, they can just do it. And they can do that using the Lightning Network and applications that are on there.

And I think that's what's important about what we're doing is like, we're helping push that hopefully. We're helping to connect people to this art, and it's very, very important, especially, to try and get the message out there.

And self-banked, I know, me and you have had a lot of discussions about this. You've helped me a lot with the Lightning Network, because I'm an idiot, and I fuck it up, and I had all sorts of issues, and thank you for helping me with it.

But I know you have some opinions on this, and I don't think we'd all be here if it wasn't for those strong opinions that you had in the first place. So, what's your thoughts on it? - Yeah, I think that the Lightning Network is where a lot of the excitement is, and the fun and the games, and the kind of creativity.

You've seen that, kind of David Bowie speech about the internet, right, in sort of the 1999 or something, when he's talking about how much of a paradigm shift the internet's gonna be in terms of the content of the state of content.

And I think that the Lightning Network sort of takes that to the next level. It cuts out in the middleman. It allows streaming content, streaming money, without any filters, and so direct from consumer to producer.

And there's gonna be a lot of implications of that. It's gonna change everything up. - It's amazing to look back at those comments that he gave, and I would have loved to have known what he'd thought about Bitcoin.

You know, yeah, just the foresight that he had, he was spot on, so far ahead of his time. And I mean, I couldn't personally have imagined the impact of the internet like he did. And I can't possibly impact, you know, understand or predict the impact of Bitcoin, but it does seem, you know, going back to how it's driving

all of this creativity. For me, it's sprung out of nowhere this beacon of light, blinding white light that is providing a magnetic sort of, you know, North Pole for creative people who have suppose, you know, possibly been in dark places.

I mean, you know, anybody who has their eyes open nowadays must see what's going on. And how that's been playing out over the last few decades as well. And for Bitcoin to come along and address so many wrongs, potentially, in what it represents, that I mean, it's amazing to see the creativity

and the bullish thing for me about the whole creative space. I think this from my own personal perspective, I can't keep up with the content that we have now. - True. - And if you think about how that's just gonna exponentially grow over the next couple of years, and then the next five years, the next 10 years, you're not gonna stop it.

The signal is too loud now. - Totally. - The quality of the content is too good now. - Yeah. - And the level of distribution of that content, I think it's reached everywhere. It's just the question of, you know, amplifying that now.

And eventually it's gonna hit everybody. And the creativity that that could unleash is just staggering. - Mm-hmm. - And the impact that that will have on society, I can't begin to imagine it.

But whilst I don't think it will be a walk in the park, I think ultimately we're going to a better place because of it. And it's really exciting. We as 21 of them get to put our spin, you know, and provide a, you know, some focused attention on people that we're coming across whose work we really did.

So it's, yeah, it's really exciting for me to look thinking about what the future might hold. - And so it's also exciting because it's kind of quite controversial as well, isn't it? Like we are sort of going head to head with some quite powerful people in terms of the ideas that we've got for the next stage for society,

which we're optimistic about, but it's gonna get a bit messy. And I'm quite scared about that, but I'm also very excited by it. - I completely hear that, I second that sentiment. But also I keep reminding myself that it's a very gradual process.

Like things are happening at lightning speed, right? But still there's going to be a little while before we have the sort of big end match, you know, against the, against the B, the final boss, exactly.

And I think, I mean, this is another area where I keep getting so much encouragement. Like Bitcoin is fucking anti-frougial, as we all know, but Bitcoiners as a collective are just as anti-frougial.

You know, I'm a beekeeper, as one of many rabbit holes are a bit down, right? We have a big problem with Asian hornets here. They are big, fat, ugly hornets that kill, they can destroy entire hives.

But what happens is that one, when they try to venture into the hive on their own, all of the bees, all the cyber hornets, right? They crowd the mother fucker out and they increase their body temperature until the mother fucker fries.

Like this is what they do and this is what Bitcoiners do. And, you know, they're gonna come along one by one to start with, we're gonna, we're gonna close line them. And in the meantime, they're gonna be other shit going on.

And we're both done. I'm so bullish on Bitcoin, it's big, just doesn't start a chance. - It's nice to be bullish on a technology, but like you say, it's really about the people that allow that technology to propagate and allow these things to move forward.

And I think it's nice to have something that we can be excited about and nice to, like you said earlier, like have this beacon of hope. And it is because of the Bitcoiners that we have there.

It is because we have people who are willing to stand up and fight for something. And in a world where it seems the majority of people just either don't care, haven't got their eyes open, they are just allowing themselves to be told what to do and don't seem to stand up for anything.

You've got this little crowd of crazies at the moment or we're perceived that way who will not sit down, we will not shut up and we will win because of that. We will end up winning. And it's exciting to be part of something like that because you don't feel this energy outside of Bitcoin.

- But also like up until now, they have had the fucking cheat codes, right? They have had the cheat codes for the money. We've got the cheat codes now. - No. (laughing) - There are no good cheat codes though for this.

This is the problem. I mean, it's... - There's one, it's... - Statch that. - That's right, I don't like it. (laughing) - Yeah, that's what I thought about it indeed. - But what I mean, it's cheat codes.

It's like, not in terms of like obviously money production, but in terms of we've got the cheat codes to the cash, to the arms cash, you know, figuratively speaking. - Yeah, and I don't think you know, we don't need everybody to have got on board with this either.

I don't think the, or at least not to my knowledge, there's been a time where it's required everybody to fight these opponents and to win all of these battles. If you look at the American War for Independence, I think it was what?

5% of the population that took a balance. So the mass tend to get moved along by the determined few, right? I think that's where we are. - The minority is a Televian. Because we're on Zoom, we've got 10 more minutes.

So just so everyone knows, we can jump out and then jump back in again, 'cause I'm too cheap to upgrade. (laughing) But yeah, you're right. It doesn't take all that many people. It just, it takes those people to not sit down.

It takes those people to actually care deeply about something and put their heart and soul into something. And that's what I'm seeing here. I'm seeing people who are just, they've had enough.

They've said, no, like I don't wanna play your games anymore. They don't wanna play a game where there's a very small percentage of people who have the cheat code and they're fucking everyone over and ruining everyone else's chances.

They're saying, no, if that's a game you wanna play, I'll start my own. And what's great is that this game is so much better. It's so much more fun, it's so much more effective, it's fairer and anyone can play.

- Yeah, and it's interesting that the issue at hand here is one that is affecting everybody. It's all about the money, right? And I don't wanna just distill it down to that because as self-bank said, when you look at prevailing themes, freedom is an absolutely central one, certainly for me personally.

But we have a global monetary system that is completely and utterly corrupt and it's fucking everybody over, equally, apart from the cantillionaires and the ruling kleptocracy who are in charge of the levers of the central banking system.

So everyone can understand this issue. Everybody understands money no matter what language they speak. So everyone can get on board and be part of this and everybody can ask themselves a question about, what is this money in my pocket?

Why am I struggling? A lot of people are, why are things getting more expensive? And the fact that we have much more ready access to information now and education means that people will be waking up to.

I mean, there's a lot of noise as well, right? One of the big challenges that we have is cutting through the noise and I think that's something that 21ism does a good job of, right? We do a level of filtering, not in a way that in my mind is anyway, sort of gatekeeping or anything like that, but it's, you know, what do we like?

What do we think's worth shining a light on and featuring? And if you can do that, if you can curate things and give people access to good, high quality information, you know, high signal to noise ratios, then we're going to help to accelerate this process, I think.

People who have been in this space for a long time, you know, you look at the likes of maybe Steph Amleraire, who's probably the longest running podcast, from my perspective. You know, he's been putting out great quality technical content for years now.

And you have so many great educational resources as well. I don't know, do you guys think that the art culture, design music side of things has been neglected somewhat? Or, you know, it's one of those things that hasn't had much attention paid to it?

Because I don't actually know the origin story, why you SP and Baddis came up with 21 of them as an idea, but I'm guessing it maybe came from you spotting a gap in that part of the world.

- Yeah, I think it was part of just that we felt like we were making a few things that needed a gallery space ourselves, I think. And then that just kind of naturally led on to like, look at all this other shit that's happening.

Why don't we just mainly focus on that instead? And then maybe occasionally pop some of our own stuff out. Do you think that's right? - Yeah, I mean, I think we just wanted to provide a larger platform for the talent and the art that was already out there and that was already starting to kind of bubble up.

And in terms of what we have to do and our plan for the future, it's to provide a much more kind of positive, kind of counterpoint to the narrative that we're being fed through the mass media at the moment, which is to be afraid.

And I think our mission is to be optimistic and to have hope and to shine light on the creative kind of potential of human beings who are embracing a new technology, a new tool. And it's this tool.

I mean, it's not like we have to go to war or anything. All we have to do is just stop using the old tool and start using the new tool, it's not hard, it's not hurting anyone, it's just empowering us.

- And essentially that's just holding, you know, that's just amplifying what's already happening in Bitcoin, right, like Bitcoin is hope. All we have to do is kind of challenge, or channel the sort of ethos of Bitcoin.

And as you say, orange bill people rather than black, you know, give them an orange bill instead of the black bill that they're being fed by every other outlet. - Shine a light. - Yeah, yeah.

- It's nice to have that and get people to be excited because you say like there's a lot of fear. And with what we have, like with the tools that we have, firstly, we'd like, we don't have to be fearful 'cause I truly believe that we win.

But also it like, it feels a little bit stupid to me at times or most days, I think all of us here, right? We're all using nymphs. We're all hiding behind, like we're all hiding behind a nymph and not using our real names.

And we're doing that. Honestly, I can speak for myself anyway is through fear because I'm fearful of the fact that I'm saying something that I believe to be true, but it's not something that a lot of people want to hear.

That's fucking crazy. We shouldn't be fearful. None of us here are doing anything that I believe is wrong. We're talking about creating more freedom for more people, allowing access to finance for more people, celebrating art, celebrating creativity, supporting one another.

Like as far as I'm concerned, that's all good things. But we have to be fearful. What the fuck's going on? Why are we having to be fearful of this stuff? Like why this should be celebrated?

And like you said, this is what 21ism is. Like yeah, we still maybe do have to hide behind these nymphs and it is stupid that we have to, but we can still celebrate what's out there. And that's really, really important to show things in a positive and exciting light.

So it's a counterpoint, but you said it's a counterpoint to this dark bullshit that's going on. - I guess everyone's got their own reasons for using a nymph. I know I have mine and I like the cypherpunk manifestos take on this, which is that privacy is the ability to selectively disclose yourself to the will yourself reveal yourself.

And I don't use a nymph because I'm fearful. And I think this is a really important word because I don't give a shit about the powers that be.

Or that any perceived sort of threat. That's not why I use a nymph. And when I'm good and ready, you know, I may drop out, I may not, I don't see a need to at the moment. But once that toothpaste is out of the tube, there's no putting it back in, right?

Or it's difficult to do so. I have seen a few examples where people have been public with their names and identities and have moved towards a nymph. And it's interesting to see how that works.

And it has worked for some of those guys. But I think fear is a prison that you build with your own mind. And if people would step out and realize that that's only what it is, that's all it is, we would have a much better chance of sorting things out more quickly.

I think too many people seem to get, live in this state of fear and have this state of fear. And as a result, don't express themselves as free beers as they might otherwise do. And that's a shame.

- Just want to, we're probably gonna do an edit there 'cause we're gonna close in a second. I just wanna have the ability to call France as a cop or the massive dick if I want to. (laughing) - Here we are.

Are we lost, Mr. Crown? - No, there he is. - Crown's there. - You're here. - Mr. Crown. - Who are missing? (laughing) - Rebel mummy. - Rebel money, MTC. - And MTC, I was telling Max before, but when I was doing Mr. Crown's pod the other night, the other afternoon, or all of a sudden, I saw like a hawk fly out the sky.

- Okay. - What the fuck is going on here? Anyway, I just enjoy a bit of major. Sat down on the fence and then like all of a sudden, mid sentence, it just started pouncing on one of the chickens.

Absolutely trying to pick it to death. - Goodness. - It's ambitious. - Yeah, it's half naked now, but it survived. I got out there in time. I was shouting my fucking head off. (laughing) I'm going to leave that in the pod.

- Yeah, good. (laughing) Do you eat the chickens or are you just using for eggs? - They're not eating breed. We eat them all. We cook stock on them when one of them dies. You know, obviously not from disease, but, yeah.

- Yo. - Yo, man. - Yo. - What have you got here? - Let me do this so I can see it. - Password homing, he says. - I can't explain. - It is a bit annoying, isn't it? Having to log in and then log out again.

- Yeah, I was thinking I might just end up buying it. I think it was like, was it $10 a month or something like that? - Was it? - For the full soon? It's still like that's $10 a month in sats.

- How did I find that password before? - It's on the log, it's on the chat. It's on participants, I think. No, sorry, on the chat. - Where the invites are? - Invite, let me go in, ah, here we are.

- I really need to quit in a couple of minutes. - Okay, mate. - I'll make some. - You know I am getting you on by yourself, whether you like it or not. Another time, drag you on kicking and screaming, Mr. Crown.

- I'm just gonna turn off soon. - I just click on leave. (laughing) - Oh, I don't know how to work Zoom. I can't do this, hold on. - Have you got the password for him yet or not? - I've just put it into the chat, but I can't see anything now, fuck sake.

I can hear you. - You can, all right, and so you can hear him, okay. - But I can, oh, this fucking thing. Here we are. - I'm worried about your personal keys if you're having this much trouble at Zoom.

- I know. - You're a true champion if you're tech, by the way, Max, it's unbelievable. - I know, you've got magnet hands. (laughing) - I completely agree with that. I need constant help all the time.

I managed to find a fault in any bit of software, whether it was there before or not, but I think we'll be by the time I finish. - You're the ultimate beta tester. - Yeah, I really am. - You can make a fucking minute, that's a beta tester.

- You could. - I have suggested it before. I think to Ben Kaufman, I've said, like if you want to find a flaw, just give me a shout, I'll manage to fuck it up, don't worry. But I'll do it for free, I'll do it for free.

There we are, he should be able to come in now. - Is that one work or not? Just in case. Well, we shall find out. - I really need to quit now. - Okay. - I need to go. - All right, well, nice to speak to you.

Thanks for joining. - Yeah, super loud. - Take care dude. - Peace. - We'll see you again soon. - Ciao. - Ciao. - See you later. All right, well, try this. No joy with that password either.

- I've done on. - But he hasn't tried to, thanks. You go into the channel now, Ben. - Ah, here he is, got him. - Got him? - Yeah, I'm just, he's just joining now. - You're in. - Is he? - He's down.

- Yes. - Okay. - He got there in the end. - So we're talking about, we're talking about nims. - So who else has some thoughts on the nim situation and sort of what we were touching on? What's everyone's thoughts on it?

I am scared. Maybe that makes me a pussy. MTC, maybe it just makes you hard as nails. I don't know, but maybe it's a combination of the two, but I personally am scared because we see the sort of shit that goes on in the world.

We see how much of a challenge this is to the powers that be, whether they fully realize it or not, I'm not sure, but well, they certainly don't fully realize it. But we are a real challenge and we take a lot of power from a lot of people who very much want to keep hold of that power.

So am I the only one here who's a pussy or what's going on? - No, I mean, I think we'll probably, there'll be a few of us who do can come out, as it were, and so from the NIM over the next 10 years, I'd quite like to at some stage.

I think there'll be big benefits in terms of your social network. But at the moment, I think it does allow you to be more free in your speech, which is quite cool. And I think the other aspect of it is, and so privacy is not necessarily the right word.

It's the word in the English kind of language, but the Germans have a starting spasm kite or something like that, which just means about controlling your data and having some control over the data that other people have on you.

And I just think we should be able to have some control there. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And so in some way, that's a part of it. - That's it for me as well, I think. A, I don't want to give away my data for free and sort of others build growingly nefarious businesses with my data.

But also, I've never been interested in any kind of light shot on me. I've always been firmly behind the glass in my music production. So I'm writing career. Never had any desire at all to be on camera.

I've won, I don't often talk about this, but I think for every year for the last 15 years, I've won one of the most globally prestigious songwriting awards for the same shitty little bit of music.

It's the same thing that keeps on paying, so to speak. I've never, what a real sort of networker would do would be to go out and network that, put little articles around the place about yourself and your achievements, whatever.

I've never done that. I've never had any interest in that. And I think a large part of that is because I'd never actually had any real pride in my work because it wasn't the music I liked.

It was music for hire. I was building shitty cabinets, essentially, right? Rather than like beautiful Eames furniture. And so, yeah, man, I didn't really want to be associated with my own work and I didn't want the attention.

And I think now that has the benefit of like, I can just put shit out there, not worry about what people think. And I also know that nobody's link dodgy boy and that I worked in like the end of '90s, or, you know, in the 2000s.

So there's a real sort of like creative freedom in not having your face there. And people just, you just know that you're being judged on your ideas, you're being judged on what you speak and what you produce.

And that is massively freeing for me. - I agree like I think this, I think as well for me, it's having a face and other things around when you're given Europeans, et cetera, that generally kind of tint people's perceptions, et cetera.

And when there are, when we're under a name, it keeps the message pure. It removes the noise. It's not about, I mean, very, very apt at the moment. We're all Satoshi Nakamoto, you know, that's going around at the moment.

And I think that's true and by being that, it keeps the message of Bitcoin or what we're striving to do a bit pure. That's why I do it. The fact that government, I do my ideas. - That's funny for me.

I think people who use their real names in the space have done the space of a big favor because without that, I don't think we're at a point yet, but I can't remember how I was listening to that was talking about kind of near-economy going forward becoming kind of like a thing where it essentially doesn't matter who you are.

You know, your real identity doesn't matter, but at this time and, you know, at this point in time, people who have used their real names, knowingly doing so, you know, kind of doxing themselves, people like Matt Odell, who's obviously a big advocate for privacy.

He took one for the team now, I think, and it gives credibility to the space. It gives reassurance to people coming in who are used to dealing with real names. That comfort that it isn't just a sea of synonymous people.

I've been amazed, actually, about how many nims are embraced. It just does not seem to be an issue. And I hope that that can tell, I'm sure it will continue, but it seems to be kind of unique in this space.

Maybe it's just me being a bit sheltered, but I follow so many nims. No idea who these people are in real life. I don't know, you guys have realized, right? So... - You don't want to. - And I don't want to, but it's not.

- But for me, it does, yeah, it's like, Rob, a money set. You can only focus then on the signal, you know, of what's, of the message, what's coming out. The personal attacks, I mean, we all have a laugh with shit coroners and no coroners and people who refuse to bend the knee to be TC.

But it does keep you focused on the message and away from those sort of personal attacks. And that's a great thing. Keeps it, you know, it keeps the content sharp, actually. - Yeah. And also I think like I am, I am incredibly worried, like you Max, I am incredibly worried about the turn

that seems to be, that seems to be happening globally and the sort of encroaching kind of thefts of individual freedom and government overreach and all these sort of things. But I'm not gonna kit myself and think that me having a stupid NIMA account on Twitter is gonna make any fucking difference because if they wanted to,

they could triangulate everyone in my phone, but right? Look at, look at where the dots meet up, whatever. They would find me, they would find me in a fucking second. I'm much more, I'm much, I feel much safer in the knowledge that I'm living out in the middle of the fucking forest and they would have to do better than my career service

to try and find me. (laughing) And when they, and if they eventually bother to get here, I'd be sat up in the trees with my crossbow. (laughing) - Yeah, no, you're right. And I think when you talk about this narrative though and like for me, it's not just the people who, it's not just the powers that be, it's the narrative that is forming

and that's very, very obviously being pushed and like it's a propaganda machine that is out there which is socialist ideas being fed to people who have been fucked by the banks and the governments and it's got, the socialist ideas are obviously stupid, they're not gonna work, but it's being fed to people

who are angry and confused because they don't know the money's fucked and they don't know there's a way to fix it. - And we might want to point at us. - Every day that goes past, I'm thinking, the next thing and we've discussed this off air is that it's gonna be the environment, Bitcoin is gonna destroy the environment,

we need to save the planet, we need to save the polar bears, we need to get rid of anyone who has wealth, anyone who's a Bitcoin or is a terrorist or whatever else they wanna be and they won't see that actually we're trying to do things to help everyone.

I'm more concerned about that, I'm more concerned about the personal attacks, I don't want people to, it's not so much that I'm concerned for my physical safety, it's more, I don't wanna be dealing with a load of fuckwits constantly arguing about why Bitcoin's energy consumption's gonna destroy

the world and have to spend the rest of my life basically explaining that no, it's not and like, I just wanna spend time with people who are doing something positive and making changes and not have to deal with that shit and that's a big part of it for me, is I don't think any of us should be wasting our times

and that's the power of having a nim, that is very, very powerful. - So the real thing to be afraid of, I think, in terms of the environment is something that we don't like to talk about, but it's Christmas lights.

- Yeah. (laughing) - And got much more of it. - And central bank monetary policy, right? I mean, if you really wanna talk about environmental problems, right? How about you stop incentivizing consumerism and then that will stop mass production and all sorts of shit we don't need and that would make a great fucking start.

But there are two things in that, right, that we've just talked about. A, a fucking hate polar bears, they could do one. (laughing) Smoked me all bastards. (laughing) - And also, no, no, you know, what seriousness.

Oh, I'm so cold. Fuck off then. (laughing) - My toes are freezing. - Now... - Learn to swim. - Yeah, exactly. But the other thing is that, and I'm a reform sort of, like, metropolitan sort of champagne socialist, right, many years ago.

Socialists, they love NGU as much as anyone else. Like, it's, you know, it's usually just like talking about, like, let's take from the wealthy, until they all of a sudden get some money, right?

And then they shut up, so... - Yeah. - Let the game, let the game theory do its thing. - Agreed. - Yeah, that is the egregious part of the MSN narrative bullshit. That they are, you know, playing to people's concerns.

In the case of the environment, you know, completely unjustified, as bad as is pointed out. If you benchmark it against, I mean, there's no contest, actually. There is no contest whatsoever, when you consider how the monetary system works, and yeah, how it massively incentivizes consumerism,

and, you know, there's threads that we could pull on there about why the world seems to have this massive, self-esteem problem that they try to fill with shite, cheap shite, and obviously can never do so.

And we could trace, you know, that back to the kind of institutional schooling that's part of this fiat system. But I think that there would be, if we could just refine that message. I put a thread together of articles.

People have put some really good articles together, people like Parker Lewis, various others, who, you know, way ahead of their time considered these concerns. And I think it's going to be a battle that we have to fight.

But unfortunately, I don't think it's going to be a battle that we win or lose though, that it's not the war for Bitcoin. I don't think we're going, even if we don't win over the narrative, the hearts and minds on the environmental front, NGU is going to drive the success home.

I think that it's just going to be as simple as that really. I don't think it matters. And the shame of it is that the people who don't look further than the narrative and who buy this bullshit about it being bad for the environment, will end up being the ones that don't adopt it.

And they could just be, you know, so close to being fully on board with it and being hard and advocates for it. But they won't get there. And that's just too bad. Life sucks sometimes, you know, we're not going to win everybody's heart and mind over this.

Never mind. (laughing) Simple, does that really? Yeah, have fun staying poor meme. I think it's an energy saving device. Yes. That's how I've described it. The way, what I think it's absolutely fair enough to use it, this is what I first thought anyway, is when you have tried your best to reason with somebody

and they just refuse to budge. And you can see that it's very difficult, you know, I don't think in the history of the internet anybody's ever won an argument, right? No one's ever won an argument on the internet.

So I'm no different. No one's ever won an argument against me and I've never won an argument against anybody else. But if you do try your level best to reason with people and provide them with, you know, the robust arguments around it and they still just don't want to get it, you know, or willfully ignorant of it,

then HFSP is a fair response from them. They need to be told many different times in many different kind of ways, don't they? And so we need to hit them in the real world as much as online.

So this thing that kind of cryptography is doing with some billboards up in quite deprived areas of the US right now, this big kind of installation work is extremely exciting. I'd like to see a lot more of that happening over the next, I can 12 to 18 months.

I'd like to see real world manifestations of these ideas and these, and this art. - And I think it's not really revealing anything but it's certainly in our vision that we're going to be doing some of that very soon.

- Yeah. - What I found useful recently actually and why I seem to be getting a bit more lock 'cause I've had a lot of lock on boarding bells around me, like friends, family. The boomers never for the geopolitical sort of macro picture.

For them, it's purely NGU, interestingly enough, whereas all of my friends are generation, they know something is up. But what I found useful recently and sort of getting to a few people is actually being active on anti-lockdown threads on Twitter and I've been getting a lot of DMs after that

because we are already, well, I don't want to speak for all of you but I'm quite skeptical of everything that's happening. - I thought you'd love it. (laughing) - So that you have to be, I know with you guys but you know, so many people are entrenched in their views that are on both sides of the fence.

And in true Bitcoin style, I think all of us have probably changed our minds at some point in this last year, 'cause you respond to the facts that are available to you at the time. Anyway, I've found that there are a lot of sort of sympathetic ears in the anti-lockdown, critical of government threads and I for one,

I'm gonna explore that a bit more. - I think that's a good idea. - I think 'cause they're already open to the idea that what's being controlled and decided by government is fucking stupid.

And so they're open to the idea that, well, if they're doing one thing that's so ridiculous, then maybe the other things they're doing are also ridiculous, including the money. So I think that's a very good idea.

- What are you finding works as a, you know, what's your opening gambit, Badders? I'm guessing it's not just short for the app by Bitcoin, hashtag. (laughing) - Now, what are you saying? - Well, I mean, I can't remember specific sort of, specific lines, but just something to the extent

of anyone critical of government measures, anybody suspicious of their motives, suspect of the global monetary reset that seems to be coming up, anybody who is seeing the global economy and knowing it and sees that we're fucked.

And I always end on with the line, by Bitcoin, like your life depends on it because it does. - Right. - And yeah, I keep on getting BMs after that. - And so I think one of the things to kind of push on there is the fact that we have no trust anymore in institutions and in governments and in the central banks.

And it's on that basis of the lack of trust, I think, in which we can come in and we can provide the alternative, which is that you don't need to trust, you need to verify. 'Cause, and so the trust is gone, I think, for everyone.

People just don't trust anymore. - I mean, yes, I mean, anyone who's looking. Yeah, not just boomers though, not just boomers. It's like, without doxing myself, my group of friends and peers, people around me, similar age, they do believe, they do trust, a lot of them trust.

And it is not just the boomers. It's like, I would say I'm definitely in the minority when I say wearing a mask is fucking stupid, lockdowns are fucking stupid, the money's destroyed. Don't bother voting left, right or center, it's all fucked, vote Bitcoin.

Like, I would say that probably one in 20 people have similar to views to me. Everyone else thinks I'm a lunatic and it doesn't seem to just be an age thing. It just seems to be, I don't know.

The other thread is the more intellectual they are, the less they see it. It's more like, it's more people who have more life experiences seem to see it than the people who, and necessarily like, should understand about the money.

It's more like people who are living more normal lives who don't think that they understand economics that actually seem to understand the basics better. - I think that's true. I think that's true for Bitcoin also, right?

I mean, the academics are gonna be the absolute last in line to buy their cents. Because A, they think of themselves as pretty damn clever. They're surrounded by people they consider pretty damn clever.

And I've said this before in other parts. I don't care if it doctors me, but my mother endorses, pretty much second in line at one of the biggest economic universities in the world. She doesn't believe what I say for a second 'cause I'm just some fucking douchebag music, now she respects me, but I'm essentially just a musician

that got lucky, and why should I know something that some of her very clever professional colleagues don't about economics? That's the line in the head. And I think that's the same for the geopolitical situation.

My father-in-law is a doctor. My dad, he was a director of a pharmaceutical company. So they already know a little bit about vaccines, about pandemics and viruses and whatever. And that means that they are very much entrenched in their view and believe other medical professionals, et cetera, et cetera.

Sorry, that was a bit of an inadequate rant. - Yeah, it's, Chris has had a great piece in Citadel 21 called "Why the Yuppy Elite Dismissed Bitcoin." There was a great piece. - And it sums up there why we have this gap in the middle of the standard distribution curve of intelligence amongst society, people who are seemingly smart,

but won't get it or don't get it. And I think it shows to me an absence of work, but if you found Bitcoin, you've stuck with it, you've become a toddler and you dug in and you get it. That's proof of work for me at the individual level.

And the people who just won't get it, they don't have a frame of reference via which any of the touch points at which you might encounter and get Bitcoin would intersect. So there is a big absence of work there and maybe it's because they're just too comfortable.

For some people, I think, having a very good lockdown, I haven't affected them. Water offer ducks back, right? - Yeah, that's a good thing. - And at the same time, just one final part of that is what you're all so competing against.

It's not just that absence of work. It's a relentless hammering of the same message that plays into, I don't know who it was, but maybe it was Goebbels that said you can't tell people what to think, but you can tell them what to think about by repeating the same, it was Breedler, actually, talking to Mikey Saylor.

I was watching it episode nine last night, what is money? And you get them focused on inflation and the need for it. You can drive the narrative and drive what they're thinking about. So you're competing against that day in, day out, if they're just getting their information from the disinformation from the MSN,

you're competing with a lot there. - But there's also the fact that they're increasingly kind of dependent upon the state. UBI is already here and people's independence has been taken away.

And so people's kind of businesses have been forced to close for the past 12 or so months. So they're reliant upon the handouts from their governments. So they're not going to rock any boats unless, I don't know, unless we show that the stake that they're going to have in this is going to be better

than the stake that they've got in the shit that they've got. - Both of you sort of a kind of hinting at something that I've been feeling a lot recently and that I was guilty of just before, as it was coming up to the Brexit vote.

And that was people that, you know, me back then in that situation and now sort of like middle class, upper middle class, academics and generally affluent people that haven't really, they haven't lost their job 'cause they can work from home.

They still have a good pay packet. They have a nice home to be locked up in, right, to be interested in. They probably have a nice garden, whatever. Yeah, life isn't that fucking bad. Like, where you're fucking masked, but lockdown isn't that bad.

Just watch where your mask stay indoors, listen to what they're telling you. You know, that's fine for them. It's fine for me to, like in 2015, 16, go, what's wrong with Europe? Like, I want to be able to travel everywhere without, without any, you know, with complete freedom of movement, all these sort of things, never for a second

having enough fucking empathy to ask yourself, well, is there a sort of populist kind of counterreaction to everything that's going on? Life is great for me, but what is life actually like for the majority of people?

Yeah. Well, that's how you get the populist kind of politics, right? That's how we got Trump and the growth of kind of right-wing groups around Europe. So there is a wave of the rats who are going to be getting angry and very rebellious and they need to channel for that energy, I think.

And they're not being given on, right? Because every channel is being shot off to them. Exactly. And what is going to happen to all that energy that doesn't have a chance of escaping? And this is why I think if you're coming and all this from first principles, and I was saying this to my in-laws,

who thought I was completely sensationalist and hyperbolic back in March, when they were talking about lockdowns, I said, it's going to result in my riots, and so I'm going, oh, don't be so dramatic, whatever.

It's just, it's the natural conclusion of things, isn't it? I think we're all agreed and have been since March, since those times, like looking out, looking into the future, Bitcoin seems to manage to focus us on what's going on in the world, like we have to understand what's going on in the world, probably more than anybody else,

because it all feeds into the more shit that goes on, the more people who wants a safe haven asset, the more people who want to step outside of the system, and how do we get this increasing number of people who are going to be annoyed, who are going to have more and more taken away from them to instead of hitting the streets

and setting things on fire and shouting and screaming and making little cardboard cutouts and all the rest of it, how do we focus them into the best way of protesting, which is Bitcoin, like how do we explain and capture their imaginations?

I really think art of all its different forms is going to be a major, major way to do this, and that's what excites me about what we're doing, but how do we refine that even more? Like, how do we explain to people, this is the best protest, don't go out with your cardboard cutout and start ranting, take your phone out,

stack some sats and fucking take their power away? - I think, I think it's, one way I like to look at it is when you're growing up and you're given how ever much pocket money you were given per week, a couple of quid, depending on obviously, how generous your parents were.

I think there's a good example there of whoever controls your money, controls your world in that sense and what you can purchase and whatever, which is, and there are good lessons to do me wrong, the good lessons have pocket money, I'm not gonna love pocket money when I was growing up,

but the point is there is that whoever controls your money controls your world, it's as simple as that. And if we can get that message across the people, as Bitcoin is the only form of protest really, you can shout and scream and riot outside, government buildings for hours on end.

And in the end, as we know what happens, it's cyclical, it'll happen again and again and again and again. The only way out of this, well, in a relatively peaceful, not quite sure exactly how it's gonna play out here, so don't quote me on this, but the only way to hit 'em hard is to hit 'em in their pockets and to get and to buy Bitcoin.

- I completely agree and I forget, monetary policy is the invisible hand, the guides, society. But as I was saying, I've been speaking to some people in these sort of anti-lockdown forums and threads and some of them are just like, well, I'm paying an ex-wife, I'm struggling to pay my rent.

How the fuck is that? How is that a rebellion or way out for me? And even if I try to say, listen, even if you can just spare 10 pounds a month, but this is easy to forget if you don't have those issues.

But I remember times, when I was a lot younger, where 10 pounds in a month would have bought me certainly food for a few days. And yeah, well, obviously Bitcoin is the answer, but I don't think everyone will be able to feel like it's one that they can be a revolution they can be part of.

I don't know. I think people are going to start to lose their heads pretty soon. I think they already are. And so I'm going to badass or Mr. Crown shed some image of a French guy, himself immolating on a train platform today, which was pretty horrific.

But people are beginning to lose their minds. I think as a community, we need to get our kind of shit together right now, and we need to be the role model of how we should be living. On the whole, where the strong demographic of our generation, we're 25 to 45 or something.

And so most of us have families, or we're going to be having families, and we have jobs and we have careers, et cetera. And I think we just need to be, we just need to shine the light on the fact that we don't want to be going crazy.

We just need to get on with our life in a positive way. And if we can be that role model to people and just play it fucking cool right now, then people will see that we're a community with our shit together.

And perhaps that's where we should be investing our time. That's where the fun is. That's where the party is. These people look okay. - I hope it's going to be with that. And not this sort of like big social titties, a car zone, a Cortes right there, but you know, look at these happy, wealthy,