EP69 Bitcoin podcast with Evan Kaloudis

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Alright, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back, everyone. Today's episode is with Evan Kaludis. This was from Code Block 4. It's currently still live on 21ism. We had some amazing featured artists, and obviously we featured Evan for his work on the Lightning Network.

Really, really enjoyed this one. It was great to have a deep dive into everything that he's building and also get a little bit of a backstory. So, if you haven't checked it out, go to 21ism.com now.

And thank you to my show sponsors, Coin Floor UK. If anyone's in the UK and looking to snack sats, I suggest you check them out. I'll have a link in the show notes below so you get a discount.

And, yeah, enjoy the show.

♪ This is it, what ♪ ♪ Satoshi's pouring from the sky ♪ ♪ Stacks and chips up ♪ ♪ No fear of missing out ♪ ♪ How about a dip and flip, what ♪ ♪ Now pop it up and double up is what we hit ♪ ♪ What, what, what, what ♪ ♪ This is it, what ♪ ♪ Satoshi's pouring from the sky ♪ ♪ Stacks and chips up ♪ ♪ No fear of missing out ♪

♪ How about a dip and flip, what ♪ ♪ Now pop it up and double up is what we hit ♪ ♪ What, what, what ♪ ♪ What, what, what ♪ ♪ Satoshi's pouring from the sky ♪ ♪ What, what, what ♪ ♪ Satoshi's pouring from the sky ♪ ♪ What, what, what ♪ ♪ Satoshi's pouring from the sky ♪ Hi, Evan. Thanks for joining me today.

We've had a little bit of discussion just previously 'cause we've had some internet connection problems, as is usual with this podcast. But welcome to 21ism. We are very, very excited to have you on here.

We've been loving what you've been building and we thought it was just a great opportunity to showcase it and to show the world what you've made. So welcome and thank you for joining me. Hey, Max, thank you so much for having me.

It's really a privilege and an honor to be here and to be able to talk to your, to your audience. Yeah, I'm just excited to chat with you. Cool. And like I said to you, I'll have a Bitcoin Q&A may or may not be joining us.

He might jump in halfway through, but he's normally my crutch for the more technical, more technical than so. I'll probably come off sounding like an idiot when we, when we go a little bit more technical.

But yeah, it's something I've downloaded recently. Zeus LN, everyone has been banging on about it for ages, but I've only just got my lightning node set up and running. And actually quite a few of the guys in 21ism run Zeus.

And I was like, right, okay, I need to get going with it. And it's very slick. It's very nice. I had some problems setting it up because I'm a fuckwit and I managed to screw in and then I built, but now it's up and running.

It's great. So it would be good to sort of hear how it came about and why you decided to build a wallet. And did you see that there was something missing with other ones or it's just something you enjoy doing?

- Yeah, sure thing. So yeah, first of all, I'm glad to hear you're using it and you like it. That's amazing. And you know, all the feedback and support I've heard from people, it's like, it's been incredible, an incredible journey for me.

And to be frank, like all of it is really just icing on the cake because when I build Zeus, I just built it for myself to be frank. So I like you probably, you know, I made my first lightning node.

I did the Raspberry Bolt project. And then I later ran the more updated Raspberry Blitz project. But for those that don't know, it's the projects built around getting a single board computer in the form of a Raspberry Pi then connecting like a terabyte or so hard drive or solid state drive to hold the blockchain.

And then flashing the software onto a micro SD card so that you can run this all in one Bitcoin and lightning node solution. So I had built this thing and I decided I'm gonna use this node and use it on the main that Bitcoin network to actually use and get on the lightning network.

And, you know, I was making connections at home by a couple of small things. But for me, I just really wasn't satisfied by that desktop experience because for me, I really saw the main benefit of lightning is that you don't have to wait for those block times.

It's like really ideal wallet to be using out and about in the real world. Like if Bitcoin ever becomes popular and, you know, we're checking out stuff at, you know, the supermarket, for example, we're not gonna be doing on-chain transactions where the cashier is like, - We're having to wait 10 minutes.

- 10 minutes, you don't double submit the price and like rob the supermarket. Like, no, that makes a lot of sense in that regard in that like your transactions are like, you know, pretty instantaneous.

It's like comparable to a credit card or debit card being charged. And you know, the fees are tolerable so compared to what I believe, you know, the on-chain fees are gonna look like moving forward.

And I think we're starting to see that now as we're going into this bull market. So, so Zeus, back to hell, why I wanted to make it. So when I started, there weren't a lot of great options.

There were a couple other wallets for Android. So I'm primarily an Android user. And there were some that weren't, it was well maintained. The functionality wasn't quite there. They were a little clunky.

And at the time it had actually done a couple contributions to the Zap desktop wallet, which is still phenomenal desktop wallet. And I had reached out to Jack Mollers and I asked him if he had any interest in me making a Android version of the app based on React Native.

So a little more background at the time I was working at a cybersecurity company and I had helped build out their interface for their product in React, which is this JavaScript framework that Facebook made.

And I wanted to extend my skills in that framework by using like another sub framework of it called React Native. And React Native lets you write the code once in this framework called React.

And then you could publish that app to multiple platforms. So in this case, Android and iOS. And I just talked to Jack briefly about it and they had decided to go with a native experience, which in some ways is more smooth.

And I still wanted to learn this new framework in and out. So I'm like, you know, screw it. I'm gonna just do it my own way and build it to make this wallet that I wanna see and use on a daily basis and to learn this framework.

So from there, I just started hacking on it a little bit throughout my evenings and doing some more hardcore hacking sessions during the weekends. Usually while listening to some Bitcoin podcast, some Stefan Lavera, some TFTC was really, you know, giving me the motivation to get it out the door.

And yeah, I was starting to use it regularly and, you know, to be checking in on my balances and managing my channel as well. I was taking like the bus and train into work. And yeah, I eventually got to a point where I'm like, okay, this is pretty cool.

Why not share with everyone else and see if anyone else gets value out of it? I know it certainly made my life a bit easier. You know, let me put it out into the world. Maybe people give me feedback.

Maybe people will join the project and contribute code. And, you know, I got both. I got a lot of great feedback online regarding, you know, the interface and the user experience and then I started getting some contributors.

So what started as a project that really just supported the L&D implementation of Lightning, which is great. And it's the most popular implementation and I use it in most cases. But now Zeus has expanded to sort of be like the Swiss army knife of sorts for the Lightning network.

So you could connect your L&D node. You could connect to C Lightning over the Spark and C Lightning REST interfaces. You could connect to an E-Clare node. So those are all the major implementations, I would say.

And then if you don't have your own node to connect to, you could piggyback on a custodial solution called L&D Hub. And L&D Hub is what powers the blue wallet app, which a lot of people, you know, tend to start off with when they're getting onto Lightning.

You know, we've got some big disclaimers on there because that sort of falls into the not your keys, not your coin camp because you're not running that instance. They could run away with your coin.

So I had to make that really clear in the Zeus app. But I still think it's a really interesting way to interface with, you know, certain servers. You might have a setup for various purposes using that framework.

And you don't even have to use the blue wallet guys server in that regard you can create your own L&D Hub instance. And have your mom or your close friends connect to and they don't have to worry about sort of the more intricate parts of Lightning network, like liquidity and channel management.

So in that regard, it's a pretty cool system. - Yeah, because it's confusing, right? Like it's step by step with this stuff, I think for non-techies and having the options there available is great because they can still presumably get used to using your app and they don't run their own node, but then they can upgrade

and decide to do that at a later stage. But at least it gets them sort of exposure to the Lightning network, even if it's not the perfect setup to start with because, you know, like I say, it is step by step.

And these things do take time. And like you mentioned, the Raspberry Blitz earlier, we had root soul on here as for code block one, absolutely love the guy and then the Raspberry Blitz is awesome.

- It's incredible. - It took me, I don't know, a week messing around to get it running, you know, reaching out to Bitcoin Q&A, had all the different problems and most of it's just completely my fault.

But, you know, it just shows that these things take time. So somebody in that situation might say, okay, well, I'm gonna get this thing set up eventually, but why don't I set it up and have linked to someone else's node or do it through blue wallet or something like that until then, so they don't get stuck for those 10 days or a week.

So it's good to have the options. - Yeah, the way I like to look at it is that these things, there's layers to it. There's levels to it, actually. And similar to how on chain Bitcoin in itself has levels like, I would say it's sort of like this.

You start off step one and you're on level one and you just buy the Bitcoin, you acquire it. It's like, oh, I've got some Bitcoin in my exchange account now. Okay, that's great, that's step one.

Step two is you've got your own wallet that you have the keys for and you extract from the exchange to that wallet, right? From there, maybe you have a more secure setup where you go from a phone wallet to a hardware wallet or maybe it's even air-gapped in the form of a cold card or one of these new wallets that are popular.

- And then after that, you take out the privacy risks of having someone else validate your transactions and you run your own node. So similarly, you could say that, okay, step one in Lightning is like you're using a full custodial solution like blue wallet or a wallet of Satoshi.

Step two would be you have a wallet that kind of lets you control your own keys even if you're not running your own node. So something like a phoenix or a breeze where you're really only trusting them for before the confirmation gets confirmed.

So a lot of the trust is removed. And then step three would be running your own instance of LMD on top of your own full node and connecting with a wallet like Zapp or Zeus and having full control of all your channels.

But yeah, there are a couple other options in the middle there, but I would say like something like a neutrino soft light wallet where you're still managing the channels but don't have a full node.

But yeah, that's more or less the way I like to look at things. And yeah, we don't necessarily have to push people to the extreme getting a rest by blitz all the way, but it's something we should tell people that they should strive for.

And we really need to lay on them what the benefits are. And that's just not abundantly clear when you fire open one of these newbie wallets. They benefit by having their users and not exactly know all the ins and outs of stuff.

You don't wanna overwhelm your user by giving them all this information and telling them all these risks that might scare them off. But it also benefits their, having the user base and maybe even eventually having some sort of business model of sorts.

So education is like a really important part of this whole thing, I would say. - Yeah, and it's got so much better. It seems that a month on month, there's more and more material out there, more and more telegram groups, people willing to spend time to help each other.

There's great software coming out, there's more node implementations. There's just so much happening all the time, which gives me a lot of hope because I do think that more and more people are gonna start either having to look for, taking control of their keys, taking control of their lives, especially with what's going on in the world.

And there's less and less of a barrier for them to be able to do that. So the hope for me is that all this stuff over the next couple of years, when people really, really need it, they can go from cuck money to proper self sovereign Bitcoin money within, I would hope within a few months, like it's not impossible.

It's not the most difficult thing in the world to do now. And it seems to only get easier. Do you have a view on that? Do you have a thought of how we could possibly do better in the space to help people?

- Yeah, in terms of the software that's coming out, we're really, you know, it feels like a golden era, to me, just to be able to look back six months and see the technology or the products we didn't have.

I'd say it in six, last six months, like especially, I mean, lightning with stuff has really made some nice strides, but like multi-sig wallet software has gone pretty much from zero to 100, I would say.

And the form's just like stuff like spectra into the spectra. And caravan and all that stuff is being used so much more on, and that stuff's gonna get even better with snoring tap root and making it easier to set up multi-sig.

So like, always more room to iterate on that. But as far as what we can do, even if we're not software developers, you know, we just need to pay it forward 'cause I'm sure you like me, you know, I had a pretty intricate Bitcoin journey and I had a lot of different voices that helped guide me to where I am.

And, you know, this isn't an easy thing to wrap your head around. Like Bitcoin is a very new way of thinking, I would say like, and when I was in school, so I went to college in fall of 2010 to 2014, right?

And I was studying computer science and I had also been reading a decent chunk of Austrian economics and I had heard of Bitcoin in my freshman year, but it didn't really click for me until I got into my junior and senior years.

And, you know, for someone who was somewhat versed in econ and computer science to like not get it right away, that says a lot about this thing. And, you know, that was then but like still, like you see people that are like deeply entrenched into these industries of like software engineering and cybersecurity and similarly people

that are really entrenched in economics, even Austrian economics, which I feel the lines very well with Bitcoin. And they still don't get it. They say it's a Ponzi, it's a scam, other misinformation, like it's gonna use up all the world's energy.

Well, you know, maybe it will, but it's not gonna be doing it in a wasteful manner. Unsustainable, it can't be used as a currency, the TPS, the throughputs too. Well, what are miners gonna do when all of them are mined?

It's like all these are like very easily answered questions. It's just like, it's just like not common knowledge. And I think that goes to really show like how early we are in this thing.

Like the fact that we can have major financial publications spreading misinformation about double spends and what the function of block reorgs are, it's like, okay, this is still like the first few innings of a ballgame, like this thing is not even, you know, not even close to the terminal velocity where everyone's gonna be using it.

Like we've sort of got to this point in our culture where like people, you know, they've been exposed to the word Bitcoin and like the vague idea of it. You know, like I was at a party last night and there was this drinking game and one of the cards was drink if you've ever invested in Bitcoin.

And like I see that and I'm like, okay, like we've sort of like cracked into the culture in that regard and that like stupid drinking games. We'll mention Bitcoin, right? But then I walk around the room and it's like just me and one other person that out of like a, you know, a party of like 10 or 12 people that have invested in it.

And that says, okay, we're right, heading in the right direction, right? And people are aware, but very few people have actually made that plunge. And you know, this is all still very, very early days when you think about it.

And I think we've got at least 10, probably another 20 years of this thing having to propagate throughout our world. And I think this is like really the perfect time for it to do that. And I see, you see that is in Bitcoin's creation, like look at it, it's Genesis block.

It's like it is a result of what's going on in the world. Like to see the chance around the brink of a bailout for a second bailout for the banks. Like in the first Genesis block, like this is a political project.

Other people want to admit it or not. And that's not to say like, that's not to say like Bitcoin's explicitly like left versus right wing in that regard, but you know, it's a direct response to what's been happening in the world.

- It's a reaction that you say is it was a reaction. If what happened in 2019, you know, it hadn't have happened. If we didn't have the sort of stupidity and corruption that we had, then it probably wouldn't have been necessary.

It's a reaction to all of what went on and all of that corruption. And it's only got worse. And like you say, the sort of preconceived ideas about Bitcoin or that people sort of they know what they've heard of it, but they really don't have any clue about it.

And they'll fall for the stupid fub that you mentioned. But I think we all do at the beginning, you know, you said before, you were like perfectly aligned to understand this stuff. Like you had the sort of specific knowledge you'd need to really wrap your head around it.

But as you said, it sort of passed you by. But then that changed. Can you remember what it was that woke you up or opened your eyes or was there a certain moment where you were like, oh fuck, like, you know, this is something big.

Like can you remember what you were previously thinking about it and how it changed? - It's really hard to pinpoint exactly. I feel like it was just an amalgamation of my experiences throughout that college experience.

And, you know, really I suppose part of what had happened just prior to that with all, with like the housing bubble and the bank bailouts. But also response to that in the form of Occupy Wall Street and going down there and seeing the competing ideas.

You know, seeing, you know, socialists really leaning towards more regulations on these entities and on the counter side, seeing, you know, it's really just a whole plurality of ideas. Remember people holding cardboard Reagan signs and talking about the old standard Peter Schiff debating

socialists and streaming it to YouTube, but, you know, also the voluntarist going and protesting at the Federal Reserve, which was just three blocks away. It's like why are we protesting in Zicati Park when, you know, the real creator of these inequalities and the institution that even makes it possible

to bail out these banks on the scale that we saw is like three blocks away. So like talking to a lot of people there too, but, you know, also seeing like the practical applications of it in the form of the Silk Road and seeing like the kinds of commerce that that allowed for there.

And then, you know, really what's gonna bring most people into this game is the number go up technology as they call it, and seeing the action and being like, okay, so there's something to this.

This isn't just like some niche thing that's gonna like fluctuate through this price range. Like it's gonna keep breaking through to new highs. And I guess it was like the end of that cycle that I, you know, just took the plunge myself and made some purchases for myself and started messing around with the thing

and really just getting comfortable with making those transactions and sending from the exchange to, you know, a personal wallet. I think I was using my salient mana Android at the time, which is great at the time, but totally guard now.

And I think we're gonna still see a lot of cycles like that where, you know, software in the space just gets completely obsolete. You know, probably Zeus will get obsolete one day, you know, if we don't end up maintaining it as well.

But yeah, just the experience of being able to like just send or firstly, to just be able to create an account, right? Without anyone's permission to just be able to write these words down and have full control of it.

And then with further more, like without permission, being able to send to like your friend, your roommate, and for them to just have those coins. Like, it doesn't really hit you the power of it until you find yourself first A, using it and then like B, like actually using it in like commerce and like making transactions.

And then I suppose like lastly is like, after making those commercial transactions like seeing how much that Bitcoin was worth and dollar values today, like, oh, shit. That is the most expensive six pack of beer I have ever purchased, you know what I mean?

(laughing) I, you know, people just don't get it until they lived it themselves really. So I think if you could actually just get your friend to get a wallet for themselves, the rest of the pieces sort of come together.

Yeah, it's just, it's a matter of time, isn't it? It's, if someone's held some Bitcoin for some time or they've used it, I think generally once you start dipping your toe in, once you start showing a little bit of interest, you don't really ever come back out of this space.

I've never seen that, I've never seen someone sort of come in, start to be interested, start to try and wrap their head around it. And then just go, nah, that's not for me. I'm not interested.

It's very, very rare because it's like, it's like an addiction almost because it's so different and it's so much further ahead than everything else. It's so much like, it gives you so much power, I guess, is the thing.

There's some power. It's difficult to, yeah. It's like, can you imagine now if there was no Bitcoin and you had to just go back to using dollars and fucking about or gold and like you lost the power that you currently have, it would feel like you'd gone back a couple of centuries.

- Yeah, I mean like, even before this, like doing a bank wire transfer, let's say, when I had to send to friends or I guess, I had some cases where I had to send people money in Europe, family members and people I worked with on certain projects.

Yeah, like wire transfers there that were unpleasant, like really unpleasant, but now after using Bitcoin, it's like pulling teeth. Like, I don't ever want to do a wire transfer and have to, especially when you have a problem with it and it gets frozen and you've got to call up, people is like, oh, excuse me, sir,

can I please have my money? - Right. (laughs) - In that regard, it gives you tough money. It's not your money at all. And, you know, I think in our crazy world, I think it really redefines what property and ownership is because the other things that, you know, we claim to say we own, like, I mean,

even our biggest purchases like our homes and our property, like, they're susceptible to tax every year. And, you know, Bitcoin doesn't really operate in that same paradigm. I mean, it could eventually be taxed by authorities on that level, and I think it ultimately will, but, you know, it's a much harder thing to enforce

when you get down to it. Like, it's really easy to prove that you have some bitcoins if you so please, right? Even without moving it, you can just take the private key and sign messages and people can verify that you have control of an address.

- Unless you're some stupid Aussie fuck. - Yeah, like, you know, a complete sociopath and make your entire living off of deceiving people and you really don't care how history is gonna look back at you.

- Yeah, like that. But it's really difficult to prove that you don't have access to something, you know? So it really changes the dynamic of, you know? It really the definitions of what property ownership is.

So a lot of people have been talking about this great reset thing and, you know, what's being pushed by the world economic forum and the people at Davos, the 2030 initiative, you'll own nothing and you'll be happy, right?

- Exactly. - And that really goes into some, like, technocratic, dystopian bullshit in that if you don't own anything, who is gonna own everything? But the first side of that is that you don't really own anything anyway, except for maybe Bitcoin.

So you're gonna see a lot of these Bitcoiners that become empowered and they're not gonna want to own anything but they're Bitcoin, so they will be renting everything. They will be jumping and doing a jurisdictional arbitrage to different jurisdictions that are more accommodating for their families, you know, especially regarding taxes.

So there's a bit of irony in that. But yeah, yeah, just my main takeaway there is like, you don't really own anything in this crazy world of ours other than Bitcoin anymore. And you end yourself in your life and the time and how you choose to spend it.

- Yeah, it takes a while to get to that point of thinking like that, but it's true. Like, once it clicks, it is very difficult to think about ownership of anything else. Like my previous career was property investment, as is what I've done for most of my life.

And if you'd have said to me five years ago, would you invest in anything else other than property? Or would you put anything more than sort of 10% of your wealth in anything else outside of property?

I just had absolutely fucking no way. I would never consider anything else. This is the best thing possible. And I actually own something. And now I look back at how I used to think. And I think you fucking idiot.

You were so, you know, like, you were so, so wrong. But you think that, I think a lot of it is because you're told like bricks and mortar, safe as houses, you know, you've got, you actually you own it, you've got, you know, the worst case you can actually have a roof over your head.

It's actually something physical. You have all these sort of things that you believe. But when you actually look at it, like you said, you get taxed every month here for having your place, whether you're living in it or not, whether it's rented or not, you just get council tax, you get these taxes.

If you buy something, you pay tax. If you sell it, you pay tax. And if for any reason the government want to come and take it or the bank want to come and take it, pretty much they can. And that is very, very different to Bitcoin.

And then once you get on board with this, like you said, you want to own this and run everything else. And it flips the ideas that I had previously completely on their head as does almost everything in Bitcoin.

It flips. I think a lot of people's political opinions on their head, it teaches us that a lot of what we worry about in our everyday life was stupid. And that actually we're focusing on the wrong thing.

And it's like it's a great teacher, basically. You have to, as you take responsibility for things slowly, but surely it shows you the real world. And the real world is a pretty fucked up place at the moment.

And I'm very, very pleased that we have Bitcoin and we have so many people building such incredible software and hardware and working together to make this new world. 'Cause it's just, it's so different to everything outside it that I think that's the addiction.

And everything else feels slow and boring. - Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's hard to even imagine how I would feel about the world if I woke up today and there wasn't Bitcoin. And in a world full of creeping authoritarianism and what I would consider unprecedented uncertainty,

Bitcoin is that shining light. And Bitcoin is that source of certainty in that I know how many coins there are right now. And I know how many were created yesterday and I know how many are gonna be created and how roughly they're gonna be tomorrow and the day after that and in a hundred years

and in 2140 and it just makes the decisions you make economic calculation much more possible. 'Cause we live in this society in a world that these economic choices and calculations have been made much, much more difficult

for the average person, the average business as the bureaucrats and the politicians have tried to make more and more decisions for the masses. - And they're never good. They're like, there's always more regulation, there's always less freedom and the regulations only serve very, very few people.

And it just stifles innovation, it makes people who would otherwise be entrepreneurial just think, oh, you know what, fuck this, like I can't keep up, you have to have lawyers for everything and everything is just, you can't just say, I've got a good idea of this, what I'm gonna do, it's like you have to go through all this paperwork

and worry and stress and then you make this whole business plan around what you've decided from what you've been told is gonna happen in the future. And then one regulation changes and it's fucked.

And so you never know where you stand, it's just this constant guessing game. And like you said, with Bitcoin, you know what you're in for, we could all be wrong, I don't think we are, but we could all be wrong, but at least we know what we're getting, we know what the supplies we know, what we're gonna have tomorrow,

we know what percentage of that pie we have and we can see the developments that are happening 'cause it's all open source, we're seeing what is happening around us and we can make our own decisions.

But everything else is just smoke and mirrors and behind closed doors and no one knows what the fuck's going on, other than the people making the rules. It's crazy. - Yeah, and I think it's more so than that, it's like you don't know when things are gonna change again.

And I think that's the main driver between not only Bitcoin and traditional bank currencies, but also other altcoins. Like people don't realize that these other coins don't have the same level of decentralization that Bitcoin has and even the most popular coins like Monero or Ethereum,

like yeah, perhaps someone could hard fork them to keep the properties they have now, but there are people at the helms that are gonna push the framing of okay, this is now the new really Monero, this is now the new really Ethereum in the form of hard forks.

And to change whether your money is valid or out of how many coins your slice of the pie is, that just doesn't exist on Bitcoin. We have like a robust decentralized network and the changes that happen on our network, they happen in the form of soft forks that are backwards compatible.

And in that regard, you gotta think about the man in the coma, the man in the coma was running a Bitcoin node. If he awakes in 40 years, yeah, he might wanna update his software and make sure he's not susceptible to any vulnerabilities before doing any transactions.

And you might also wanna do that update to get the new address types to get all the fancy new features. But he has some certainty that his share of the pie is gonna stay the same and he'll be good to go.

Whereas these other coins you don't know when they change the entire paradigm of like how the issuance works or how many total coins there are or any of these other property. Or even if like his coins are still gonna be good in 40 years, like did he miss some sort of weird upgrade window?

You don't have those worries on Bitcoin. And for that reason, it's like the only coin that's really worth holding, how long term? I think there may be other alt currencies that have utility for a smaller period of time.

Like I know I was just sharing on Monero a couple of minutes ago, but I really do love Monero in that it does give you really private transactions. But the way it's designed, you gotta trade off in that it's not easy to audit the supply and inflation bugs can not so easily be found unless you could recreate them.

So I wouldn't recommend holding that long term. And then Ethereum is just like another can of worms. It's like a really, truly alpha software. And whereas they say Bitcoin is rules without rulers,

I would say Ethereum is rulers and rules that are subject to change at any given moment. - So much like the current system. - Yeah, like I don't understand. I mean, cool, you have all these interesting properties and you could just create a new account and get into these new applications that people can write pretty swiftly.

But like, are these people not seeing the irony that the way that their currency is issued is like not too dissimilar from house to central bank to it? And that like a committee gets together and votes on to change like the increase or decrease the issuance rate.

Like, are we just like trying to recreate the systems that already exists, but like with some utility to have colored coins or play games or, you know, like-- - With new rulers is the key I think there, isn't it?

It's some people are here for a revolution and a change and like real serious fucking change, which is necessary. And I think some people wanna do a bit of a shuffle around and actually they still want rulers.

They just want the rulers to be themselves. And that's what a lot of this seems like to me is like the DeFi staff and all this kind of thing is like, it's just same old shit repackaged with new rulers.

And it just doesn't interest me or like any of 21ism guys like we're completely Bitcoin only because this, as far as I can see it is like our last hope to actually have a world that changes and see literally that a revolution like seriously take the power from the people who are taking the piss out of everyone

and have done for such a long time. And it gives this power back to people. If they wanna take it, like it's not the easiest thing in the world to go and take it and, you know, do everything yourself and take your own personal responsibility and learn about this tech and learn about how to store it

and all the rest of it, but it's the most powerful thing I think almost anyone can do is just buy some Bitcoin, hold it, and have something that you can use and no one can touch and like, there's nothing else like that in the world.

And all these old coins are, yeah, a waste of time. I think a lot of it is just a waste of time. - It's just a waste of time. - 99.999% a waste of time. Like I said, there's a fringe utility that some of them have that you might wanna take advantage of for short periods of time, but nothing you would want to hold

on the timeframes we're talking about with Bitcoin. Like no one is thinking, and no one interested in old coin trading is thinking about these assets in the terms of decades or their lifetimes, the way that people are thinking about Bitcoin.

And really at the end of the very most of these people are thinking about just using these coins to increase their US dollar holdings or their fiat currency holdings. And yeah, there are some smarter people that are looking at the trading in terms of just increasing their Bitcoin balances.

But I think that there's few and far between on that level. But as far as you were talking about revolution, in some ways it's very difficult and that Bitcoin is gonna discipline you and holding is not an easy thing to do.

It's gonna change the way you look at the world. It's gonna change the way you do economic discussions. But on the other side of things like this is like, you know, into a lot of ways, the easiest revolution that you could have in that it's, you know, peaceful.

And, you know, I just sit at home and drink my coffee and my jammies. And I start my traffic. And I don't need to go put on silly hats or flags or shaman hats and storm a building. And like LARP and actually pretend that I'm changing something instead of taking action that's just gonna further empower a growing authoritarian state.

So in some ways it's very easy. And in some ways it's very hard. But either way it's never been easier to really make a big change in the world and then push things in a certain direction.

So we're really black to have this thing. - Well, it's never been easier and it's never been more realistic. I don't think we've ever, without this we don't have a fighting chance at all to change anything because it's easy to say, oh, the current system's fucked and winge about it.

But it's a completely different thing to go. The current system's fucked. Here's a new system. It's better we're building it. We don't want to part of the old one. That's very different to just sitting and winging, which is I think what most people do, all the virtue signaling, all the posting on Twitter

about saving the planet and saving the world and this man, make sure everyone has food on their plate and make sure this is like, okay, but how? - We need to do this. We need to do this. It's like, okay, how about you do something that's actionable, that you can do at an individual level and just encourage people and show people away.

Instead, you're trying to appeal to this monolithic entity in the form of the state to try to make changes for you. That's so futile because the people that are pulling the strings, that run things, they don't care about the common person.

What else needs to be put in front of your face for you to come to that realization? These guys are just in place to enrich what's like the modern day form of the mob, you know? So yeah, it's bickling really allows you to take personal action to really make a change, to do actionable things instead of just appeal

to these monolithic entities and to actually make a change and be able to interact in the form of counter economics and opt out of the existing system in a peaceful manner. It's incredible and there's nothing else in the world that comes even remotely close to it.

- Is that what pushes you with Zeus? Is that what pushes you to create an it's array and make this stuff available? Is there something in the back of your head that's like, maybe I'll reword this.

If you think about, and I do this quite often, like I think about on my death bed or after I'm gone, I try and think, what will my kids or grandkids think of what I've done in my life? Like, will they think like I'm proud to be part of this family, like I'm proud of what they've done or will they just look back and go?

You've wasted your fucking life in an office, you've done nothing of value and then they don't care. Do you believe that what we're doing here and what the possibilities are with lightning and Bitcoin and these changes, do you feel that this is a worthy place to spend your time and could you imagine anything other than this for your time?

'Cause it's a lot of time, right? There's a lot of time that we have on this planet, but in some regard, we're already dead, you know? Like, we're not gonna live forever, you know? I don't really believe in these transhumanist fantasies that people have in the same regard.

I think there's pretty much always gonna be death. So it really comes down to what you're gonna do with the remaining days you have on this Earth. But, you know, let's not delude ourselves like Zeus isn't gonna last forever.

Bitcoin itself probably won't last forever either. I'm hoping that is something that can last a good thousand years, you know, God willing, even longer. But, you know, everything comes to an end.

So what it's really about is about pushing things in the direction that you wanna see them going and to, you know, build upon what the people before us have afforded to us. And, you know, inspiring people to take the steps today to improve their lives, right?

And to be able to make the interactions that they can and inspiring people that are gonna come after you to build upon, if not, your work directly, the ideas that you're espousing. So yeah, I mean, I would be remiss to not be pushing things in the direction I wanna see the world going,

especially in this crazy, crazy unprecedented era. And, you know, I feel bipolar at times thinking like, "Oh man, like things geopolitically, "if you look at them are like so, so bad right now."

And if they're unprecedented in the only way, things could really be worse from, you know, the perspective that I see things that are, if there's like a really active hot war between like, you know, all the major nations.

But on the other side of things, like I feel so empowered and positive. And I know that ultimately that human will at the end of the day and want to be free and to interact freely. I know that whatever roadblock that people throw in our ways, we're gonna be able to work around it and we're gonna push forward

and have those options available for people and have the ability for people to empower themselves and walk out that door and live their lives the way they see fit. And I'm not sure how things are gonna play out entirely.

I know, you know, I'm pretty sure there's gonna be people that don't choose to walk out that door.

You know, some birds, they want to be in their cage. They don't want to go out into the world because they've only known the world to be this certain way. What's important at the end of the day is that you can show people the possibilities and that the option to get out of that cage is available and there for you.

And that's what's important. That's a really nice way of wording it actually. And so for those ones who do decide to step out of their cage, they do take the advice, they do take the possibilities that are given to them and they step out of that cage.

What do you see the outside world looking like? What do you see being possible with, you know, the Lightning Network and Bitcoin and the sort of the applications that are being built and the ability for people to transact freely and in different ways than they were before, like with Sphinx and with the possibilities

with those kind of applications and all this stuff. Like when you look out over the next few years, what do you see happening and being possible? Like what's exciting you at the moment? - I am just amazed, well, things are not going more to the left or more to the right, as I said earlier,

but things are gonna go more from these monolithic entities like the state to empowering the individual. And we're entering into what I see to be a new stage of human evolution in the same way that like, you know, we were nomads and hunter-gatherers

and then we had the industrial revolution. Like this is the next stage in human evolution in the form of the information revolution that, you know, we've really just started getting ourselves into since like, I would say, you know, the 90s when the average home got dial up internet.

And the possibilities for these individuals that do decide to, as we said, step out of the cage are gonna be incredible. These individuals are gonna be catered to by these nation states or, you know, different jurisdictions in brand new ways that we haven't seen before.

Like I joke to my friends, like they're really big Bitcoiners, like they're gonna be sought after. Like they're an NBA player getting a contract. The capital that they'll be able to bring into local jurisdictions will enable, you know, so many more possibilities and bring so much prosperity to these jurisdictions.

So what we're gonna see is, well, what I believe we're gonna see is these different countries come to terms with Bitcoin in different ways. Like the ones that really benefit from the existing system as we see it now, they're gonna really buy it tooth and nail to, you know, put a taper on this thing

and to try to just try to make it go away. But you can't coordinate action like that on a global scale. And as much as people would love to do that and they're pushing for that, that's just not possible in today's world with all these conflicting ideologies.

So they're gonna be nations and jurisdictions that become incredibly accommodating. And those who are accommodating, they're gonna see their status in the world change. Like they're gonna see, I mean, it's gonna take, probably gonna take decades, right?

But the accommodating countries are gonna change their status and they're gonna go from third or second world status to first world status. And the countries that decide to put the clamps down, they're gonna go in the opposite direction and they're gonna go from first world free countries to being very poor or totalitarian,

second and third world countries. And because of this technology, I think that the wealth disparity throughout the world, for the most part, is gonna become more leveled out because, you know, through the internet and through accepting this money, you'll be able to do these tasks from wherever you are in the world.

So on that level, things are gonna even out, but within countries generally speaking, the disparity between the poor and the rich has a potential to increase even more. So there's gonna be a lot of interesting, distinct challenges there.

And I think that as the Bitcoiners really increase their status in society, I just want them to be mindful of this and to start planning right now, like how are you gonna be altruistic? And how are you gonna try to limit this disparity between the rich and the poor?

Because, you know, we complain about, you know, the central banks and the inequality, they cause primarily through the cantaloupe effect, but, you know, we're gonna have power to change things in a lot of ways.

And, you know, it's not just gonna be okay, Bitcoin is gonna help level things out. Bitcoin is gonna create a lot of opportunities for people to get out of their current situations, but there's still gonna be people left behind because, you know, even if you're the most well equipped to process this new information,

a lot of it is happenstance and, you know, going through the experience of it. So I just want Bitcoiners to think before thinking and to really be really empathetic to a lot of things that are gonna happen.

And I'm just grateful that we will have the ability to make those changes. It's not just gonna be as simple as like, you know, stack. You can stack and you'll be able to create, stack and dollar cost average into, you know, your generational wealth for your family, but we're gonna, further action is gonna be required

to change the world as we wanna see it change. - Yeah, but I mean, one thing that makes me very positive about that is that if someone said to me, if you could choose one group of people to be wealthy and powerful in the future, to be able to get off their ass and make changes that need to be done.

Even if it's hard to do it, I'd give that responsibility to the Bitcoiners every fucking day of the week. - Every fucking day of the week. - Yeah, but it's just like, I've never seen this in any other industry.

I've never met people who are not just smart, you know, it's said all the time, you know, we've got some of the smartest people on the planet in this space. And then I really believe that, but not only that, they work fucking hard and they're hard on themselves.

And they don't just winge they build. And they're not ourselves, basically. Like there's all this thing about, oh, Bitcoin is a toxic and blah, blah, blah. I deal with toxic wankers every fucking day in my normal life.

I've never had any issues with Bitcoin as long as you're respectful. And as long as you treat people with respect, and you're a dick yourself, they're some of the most helpful kind people on the planet that I've ever met.

And if there is going to be some change. And I think there is, I really feel positive about the way the world is going to change. It might be dark for a couple of years, but at the end, I think we win.

- Yeah. - What an incredible group of people to do it with. - Yeah, it's incredible. It's like people that are by and large mindful and, you know, aware of the systems and play right now, but also people that are really, you know, empathetic to other problems in the world as far as, you know, like warfare and, you know,

wealth inequality and, you know, these totalitarian governments are blocking down on people's rights and what's going on in China and Hong Kong and, you know, the issues people face in India and, you know, in Africa and Latin America.

Like, you know, these are by and large, people who care very deeply about the direction that humanity is going to go in. And we have a very drastically different ideal of where we want to see things go as opposed to what appears to be some form of transhumanist serfdom

that the global elites have, you know, indicated that they want to see the world going in and the disdain that they have for the common people and how they analogize people to being ants or cockroaches or rats, it's really disgusting.

And I think the way that we empathize for people and we want to see them make better situations for themselves, it's like it's night and day in how we look at the world. - More freedom, more freedom, which is just the complete opposite of what we have now

and very exciting to see what possibilities that gives and, you know, when you reflect on sort of what's happened in the last 25, 30 years and how much the world has changed in terms of, you know, freedoms and what we can and can't do and can and can't say.

And it seems to be accelerating at quite a pace. And when I do step outside of Bitcoin world and speaking to Bitcoiners and I speak to normal people outside of it, it's quite weird. It's quite, it's so different and they are putting themselves like you said in these cages and it doesn't seem like they want to get out a lot of them.

But I think that they will when they realize that there's this other opportunity and they see more people doing that and taking control because I still think that people just don't think that there's another option.

I still think, you know, a lot of people will binge about governments, they'll binge about banks, they'll have a moan about certain things that are going on. They might question like, oh, why have I had my business shut down for a year when, you know, in the UK, I think 400 people under the age of 60 have died

from COVID supposedly and they're having their businesses taken away from them. They, you know, a few people will question it, but at the end of the day, they just go, oh, well, just leave it to the scientists, leave it to the experts.

They know what they're doing because they don't know that there's another option where people actually maybe do know what they're doing and that the people who are controlling everything, maybe they know what they're doing, but it's not in the interest of the people.

So, you know, I think it would be, it's almost like it's perfect now because if ever people are going to make that change, it will probably be around this time with like it, like you said, it doesn't seem like it can get bar some, some huge wars, it doesn't seem like it can get much more repressive without being sort of full on 1984.

And like, do you think that this is gonna wake some people up or do you think that they're gonna have to see this trend change and it's gonna have to be them following that have to be the sheep?

Like, you know, do you know what I'm trying to get at? Like it feels that most people I speak to within Bitcoin already have a little bit of a rebellious streak or they've always questioned things or they're a little bit on the outside of what most people would think they have those contrarian views

and then they find this group and they're like, ah, I fit in a little bit more here because like I don't elsewhere, it seems like, yeah, it's just a very different mindset. - Yeah, it feels good when you find your people in that regard.

But as far as, you know, waking people up, like the elites say, these crises, they facilitate change. And, you know, they say that you should never let a crisis go to waste and in the way that the elites, they push their agendas when these sort of things happen.

We should be pushing for our own agendas when these things happen. And now is an incredible time to try to open people's eyes up to, you know, the issues at hand and the possibilities that are out there, you know, like you said, in the form of these businesses, just getting bulldozed pretty much by, you know,

the virus to some extent, but more so, these draconian government policies. But, you know, there's also great opportunity in at least, you know, in the United States where we've just had the power transition from one power, one party to another.

I think that, you know, people are at least that are, you know, sympathetic to the Democrats and are left leaning, they're not gonna want to exactly see, you know, the things in the way that maybe we wanna frame them, but, you know, the people on the right are now might be able to, you know, have their opinion swayed a little bit more now

that they saw their guy get out of office. And, you know, things are going in a bad direction. So, you know, you might wanna direct your efforts towards those people, but at the same time, you know, the leftists that are seeing, you know, this power shift and, you know,

what will ultimately not be like a great change in policy, you know, you gotta show, you gotta bring those points up to those people and be like, okay, your guy got in, right? But, you know, the US Empire still entrenched in all these wars and, you know, that's gonna continue to push forward and furthermore, like the bailouts

for these biggest institutions, they're gonna continue as well. So, when these events happen and these power changes happen as well, it makes for like really good opportunities to try to open people's eyes up to things as how they are, no matter how difficult they are.

And I think in a lot of ways like there are more people that are like, you know, like they get it more than ever, especially with stuff like social media and the internet and people, for the most part, being able to have this free discourse on the internet and, you know, I think that's like a big reason.

You've seen such a crazy clamp down on, you know, on social media and week going in less than three and a half years from the daily storm or like actual white supremacists being banned to the president of the United States and his supporters and, you know, 70,000 plus accounts being shut down in a weekend.

Part of it is controlling the discourse and, you know, it just proves to us that this is such an incredible tool. But as I was saying, like in the same way that, you know, you could be so optimistic in that there are more, like unplug people than ever and more like, you know, people who get it than ever,

the people that are like still in Plato's cave and looking at the shadows on the cave wall and don't get it like every day that goes on, you know, it becomes increasingly more difficult to get them unplugged from the system.

And the face of really interesting challenge in that regard. So like any opportunity that like, you know, sort of breaks their paradigm or how they look at things, you know, we got to try to put in front of their face and, you know, try to get them to look at things in a different perspective.

There's perspective that isn't painted into, you know, finally defined box that just fits the mainstream narratives that only go to entrench the people at the top. So that's going to always be a struggle for people.

But as I said, like these crises and these changes, like they make for really, really good opportunities to try to break that. Yeah, and like you said, as well, information will find a way now with social media and with people getting so good at memeing things into reality and so good at just refining the message.

And with 21ism here, we're celebrating art and music and memes and anything surrounding Bitcoin that helps come at this from a different angle, that helps show people the lie. And it makes me very thankful that we have that basically because you will find a way to get to most people.

It might take some time, but the time is now, the time is perfect. And we've got so much great content. We've got so many great artists. We've got so much, just amazing technology coming out and we'll get them.

You know, like you said, there's going to be a few people at the bottom of that cage and they'll probably never come out. But I think a lot of people will be more open to it and it's very exciting.

- So in that regard, I think Bitcoiners, when they're going on their crusades for, you know, spreading the truth, they need to be very selective in the people that they engage with. We're not going to make any process by going and arguing with these MMTs or, you know, these people you're people in to the current system,

like quit spending all of your time with people who are not willing to accept your argument in good faith and who are not willing to learn because there are so many other people out there that are willing to learn what you have to say.

And we're just not giving them enough love and attention. And instead of going on Twitter and fighting these people that are, as we said, are like at the bottom of the cave, they're going to stay there forever.

Just tell them to have fun staying poor, whatever stupid phrase you want to call them, and then move on to people that need to hear it. And the people that we're going to unplug from this system.

So, you know, in the same way that Bitcoin is scarce or our time is even more scarce. So, you know, spend a little less time arguing with idiots and spend a little more time trying to educate friends, family and people who are willing to hear this.

Because, like you said, there are going to be people that are just entrenched there and that won't be able to come out of that. Or, you know, there's just a lot more work to be done on them.

Well, let's get the small hanging fruit. Let's get the people that just need a little bit more push. Just need to be shown a few more things to make up their mind and say, okay, it's time.

Let me get a wallet. Let me get a couple of sats. Let me see what this thing is all about. Let's focus on them. Stop focusing on this Amy Castor lady or Francis Coppola. Like, we're going to wait for time.

These people are never going to change. Nathaniel Popper. He's never going to change his mind. Yes, I really, you know, empathize for the guy because of the New York Times policies and that saying you can't hold, you know, the assets you report on, you know, it's a really unfortunate situation because I think he's a bright guy overall.

But because of his happenstance, his circumstances, right? He's never going to, you know, give Bitcoin the fair assessment that it deserves. And we got to stop trying to argue with these idiots.

These are not the people that are going to help us make this revolution better. So stop wasting your time. Yeah, and practical stuff as well, like, it's very much what I've moved across to is stop, you know, stop trying to bang on to the people who have gnawed you for years and years and just don't care

and spend the time helping someone like you said, set up a wallet and actually say, look, come on, let's send a transaction between those. Use the Lightning Network. Let's send this transaction.

You can see that I can send you a few sats and how slick this thing is. And now let's talk about what's going to be possible with it and actually show them stuff that's practical rather than just, you know, oh, we think the number's going to be this.

We think it's going to be worth this because, you know, comparing it to other assets or blah, blah, blah. Like you can talk that talk for the rest of your life and nothing changes. It will change when it changes.

Yeah. But doing the practical stuff is really where it's at and really where you can help people, help people help themselves. Yeah, so in that regard, you know, like stop bothering fucking Peter Schiff.

Listen, I repeat a lot that especially his father did. I appreciate seeing his talks at Occupy Wall Street and debating boy, we're essentially bad socialist economic ideas. But, you know, we already won the shifts over.

Like his progeny in the form of Spencer Schiff, his son, he's a big corner. So stop wasting your time. We got the shifts already, we're good. All right, and find the next mind. You could help unplug and bring into the fold.

And then, you know, when you're doing this stuff, you've got to also know your audience and you've got to know like how far to push. Like if you're going to just be the annoying Bitcoin friend, like you're just going to be dismissed.

They're going to be like, oh, Evan, you're fucking crazy. Just shut the fuck up about Bitcoin. Like we got it. Like you've got to know your audience and you've got to know how hard to push, right?

But if you chill lightly and, you know, your friends or your colleagues or whatever, they see this price going up over time and they see like, you know, maybe you're doing well for yourself, then maybe they'll revisit and be like, oh, okay.

I see Evan, he's doing pretty well with this Bitcoin thing. He seems pretty passionate about it. Maybe I'll hit him up sometime to find out a little more. Like you just don't feel like a dick about it and be like bragging or like being incessant about it.

Just be like, make yourself available to people. Like I know the people in my life, like when they are ready to make that plunge, like they're more than happy and comfortable to come and reach out to me.

But if like you're incessant about it and you're annoying, like they're just going to like double down on being like, oh, this kid is crazy. Or, you know, I hope he fails. I hope they ban this.

Like, you know, you need to learn the new ones of like how to show this thing. - Yeah, it sounds like you've had a lot of that. Evan, you're a fucking lunatic. Shut up about Bitcoin. I've had the same, I've had it, I've had it so much.

And then when they do come like it's, oh yeah, I saw this thing about the XLP. Should I jump in? You've been telling me to buy it. And you're like, whoa, whoa, that's not what I've been telling you.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come for a break buddy. So yeah, yeah, like I'll be like really loud about Bitcoin on my social media or whatever. And I think that's great because it's helped me find like a following of people and to help get my work out there and ultimately create a lot of opportunities for myself.

So like I'll never shut up on there. But like, you know, if I'm not gonna go to every family function and be like, you gotta get Bitcoin. You gotta get Bitcoin. Like no, like eventually like, you know, like cousins, my uncles, they'll be like, you know, they'll come to me when they're ready or when they have questions.

Or, you know, maybe they'll just be observing from afar and they'll be like, oh yeah, yeah, I've been, I've been doing a little training of it or I've been accumulating a little bit. And that's the best feeling.

Really you're like, or where it's been like a passive thing. Or like when you've, I had like stories of like trying to explain it when I was back in college or like maybe a couple of years later.

And hearing like, oh, Evan, you remember when we were chilling with Mark? I was talking with him the other day. And when you were at the, well, we were at that party three years ago, you know, he heard what you had to say about Bitcoin and he threw some money and he bought like three coins or something.

And you're like, damn, that's awesome. So, you know, like you gotta, there's a difference between speaking about it in like a normal way and being excited about it and telling people the possibilities and just being incessant.

And you gotta understand your audience, right? And then you gotta also understand the forum in which you're talking about it. - Yeah, knowing your audience is one that I learned the hard way because I was straight in with, this is gonna topple governments.

This is gonna fuck, this is gonna fuck up all the banks. Like, this is amazing. This is like cash and going into all that. And I'm like, you know, we're gonna have like a real chance at like proper freedom and people are just like, you're a fucking lunatic.

Don't be an idiot. Like, how could you ever be without a government? Why would you want to? They're awesome. And like, it's 'cause I'm going to the wrong people telling them all that. Whereas if I'd have gone on about the scarcity thing to them hard enough, they probably would have been like, oh yeah, it's okay, I'll buy that

'cause it makes me some money. But they don't want the freedom. So you have to really be careful with that. - And that's why it's also important to not like, lean into it's like super political angle from like a left or right angle.

Like, like if you're left, you don't be like, oh yeah, like this thing is going to like end the system of capitalism and we're gonna get rid of all the middle men. You know, there's gonna be no like ownership in that regard and Bitcoin's gonna lead us to the opposition of money.

Like, okay, that's one crazy extreme. And the other is like, oh yeah, Bitcoin is gonna lead to the abolition of all the central banks and we're gonna live in a free society without governments whatsoever.

Like, like don't go from there like, from back to the angle. Actually, if you know the way your audience leans like, just don't have to be a nut job and like wear your heart entirely on your sleeve like that.

And, you know, it's just like everyone's different and they see value in it for different things. So like, if you can and you know your audience, you know, try to keep that in mind. And when you're starting and talking about it at a party or something and you don't know your audience, like, you know, you gotta talk about the things

that are universal and, you know, the liberties and empowerment it gives to you because, by and large, people like to have more options and liberties and they do like empowerment and being able to, you know, benefit from things in a unique way.

Like, both those things are universal. So like, starting from there, say like, you don't need permission to get an account set up. You're able to accept transactions in a matter of minutes.

And, you know, this thing has been gaining in value since its inception and has gone up from, you know, less than a couple of cents, really, to, you know, $32,000 or whatever it's at today.

So like, the things are more universal than saying, this is gonna lead to X, Y, or Z, depending on how you look at things. - Yeah, definitely. We all do our part differently. You know, a lot of people, they don't like thinking like, they're not accustomed to thinking about, okay, society, humanity, history, the way that we're going.

Just like, try to frame it in the way that, like, it could help them at a personal level because, like, ultimately, at the end of the day, we're just all individually. - Yeah, absolutely, right.

And being able to just show them, I think, is really good. That's something I've been doing more and more. Just downloading a wallet, send them a few sets. Look, this is what you can do. Like you said, no account.

Didn't ask anyone's permission. We've just done it. And you could be the other side of the world, and I could have done that and it works. And that's enough. - Yeah. - That's pretty fucking awesome.

- Technology and the advancement of technology is not like a left or right issue. Like, let's focus on that. - Yeah, well, that's why I love what you've done. I love when people in this space are building stuff.

I love when people are making this more accessible. And like I said before, thank you for doing it. I now use it as my lightning wallet, suggesting it to all my friends and most of us in 21ism are using it as well.

So seriously, thanks for doing it and not just talking about Bitcoin and then being the annoying Bitcoiner at a party, but actually bothering to take your time and build something, it's great.

And this is what pushes the whole movement forward. - Yeah, absolutely. So in paying it forward, if anyone ever has any questions about Bitcoin, the Lightning Network or Zeus, just feel free to hit me up.

I'm on Twitter as my name, Evan Colutis. You can always just pop into my DMs or you can pop into a Telegram group that we've set up. It's a whole bunch of us who were doing some workshops in New York, it's called the Bitcoin Citadel.

If you go onto that Twitter profile that's linked in my bio, you'll be able to get the link there, it pops up in Telegram. Feel free to comment and ask questions there. Happy to hit them up, talk to you and engage with you.

And I'm just trying to get more people engaged and interested in this thing. And then as far as Zeus goes, we've got a lot of really cool stuff in the pipeline. First and foremost, we've had this bounty out to get tour support built into the app and we've got that done.

And this guy named Gabide on GitHub, he's got this new library called React Native Tour. And it works phenomenally. So now you don't need to use the Orbot app to. - Oh, amazing. - So that's gone.

And now on iOS where tour wasn't really an option, it also works as well. So you're able to connect to your node at home over the tour network, which is a really incredible thing. And then moving forward, we're probably gonna add a couple more controls to like create, to choose which hops you can go through

and get a little more privacy there. And we're also looking to get on the App Store proper for iOS because currently you've got to go through test wood. We're also looking to see if we can have another sort of light client option that is in custodial through the form of new trainer.

So if anyone wants to help us with that, that'd be a great hope. And last but not least, we're looking to give Zeus a bit of a UI UX touch up if not a complete ground up look at things because Zeus has a lot of challenges in that it supports all these different interfaces.

And something's gonna be like a bit clunky and overbearing for someone who doesn't know or what's going on or sending up for the first time. So we're trying to tackle a lot of issues there.

So if you want to help on that, feel free to reach out to me. We've already got some good screens and ideas, but I'm trying to build up a more comprehensive effort for that. So a lot of good stuff on the horizon for Zeus that I'm gonna be pushing forward on, but the more people that we have involved

in the community and taking a look at the code and helping iterate on it, the better this thing is gonna be because I'm helping God the project, but at this point, it's really other people stepping up and giving their input and their contributions that are what's gonna make this thing and even better well than it is today.

So I'm incredibly grateful for anyone who dedicates their time in that regard. And really happy to chat with whoever wants to talk about it. - That's very cool. Well, I'll link all those in the show notes and the article as well.

So people can contact or get involved and help with the changes that you're looking to make. It's all very exciting. I look forward to seeing how that turns out and great to hear that Orbot doesn't have to be used anymore.

That's- - Yeah, yeah. It's always released that they're out in Alpha. So, you know, just hit me up. You can get access to them on our Telegram channel or, you know, pop on my Twitter feed.

I have them linked there for the most part. And yeah, I'll send them your way as well. - Perfect. All right. Well, Evan, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you. Thanks so much for coming up.

- Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it's just been great. It's been my pleasure. - Awesome. All right. Nice to speak to you, mate. And hopefully we'll catch up for a beer in real meat space at some point when all this COVID shit has finished and it'd be great to see you in person.

- Hell yeah. I think it's going to be sooner than later, but I feel like I'll hold her breath. Fingers crossed. - Cool. All right. Well, take care. We'll speak soon. - Cheers. (upbeat music)

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