EP72 Bitcoin podcast with @rebelmoneyart

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Today's episode is something I recorded a couple of weeks ago. It's with Rebel Money Art. Rebel Money has joined 21ism a few weeks ago, and he's a fucking legend. I really have enjoyed getting to know him.

Really down-to-earth guy, very, very bright. And, yeah, pleasure to work with him every day. And I thought, look, let's get him onto the show. If you're not already following him, if you haven't already seen this art, if you haven't already checked out his interview with Cryptography T, all of those links are in the show notes below.

Go and check them out. And before we dive in, I just want to say thank you to Coin4UK. You've been sponsoring this show from the beginning. I really appreciate that. And for anyone who is thinking, right, I can't be bothered with all this KYC-free stuff.

I want to go and buy some sats and I want them now. At least go to a decent exchange. And the only one I honestly can recommend is CoinFlaw. They have an amazing team. They have very, very good security.

Use on the proof of reserves. I still think they're the only exchange out there who is doing proof of reserves. It really is quite telling. And if you want to check out my interview with OB, it was a few months back now.

I really need to get him back on, but proper Bitcoin, proper bloke. I always tell you, go and buy KYC-free. I know some of you won't. Go and use CoinFlaw if you're not going to. (upbeat music) Rebel money, are you there?

Are you lurking? I'm lurking. There he is. Sorry, I don't know what's happening with my fucking internet as usual. It would be lovely to see your face. Just know that I'm sat here with a candle burning, really sort of intimate scene, and that is what you would be seeing if I had better internet.

Sort it out, Max. (laughs) Pathetic, isn't it? I've got to do one job. It's so bad. Every single episode, really, really poor. People come to expect that from me now, I suppose. But nice to have you on, mate.

It's an absolute joy to be here. I'm not polite. This is my first podcast. This is my first rodeo that I've been interviewed for. So, yeah, happy to be here, mate. And I'm honored to be on you.

And you've had so many amazing guests on you, and it was. It was an absolute joy to be asked to come on and have a chat with you, so thank you. It's all been leading up to this moment, mate.

I've been waiting, so yeah, thank you for coming on. It's been cool actually looking through your website and looking through your art. I didn't know when you joined 21ism, anything about your background.

I didn't know anything. I still don't, and we're going to get into some of it a little bit more today. But it was really cool chatting to you the other day and looking through the website and looking at your art because you got some awesome stuff on there.

I just wasn't expecting it, to be honest. I was just like, this guy seems to know about marketing. Like, he understands all this stuff that I don't. Like, I just wasn't seeing the creative side.

And then I saw it and I was like, fuck, this is really cool. So, I wanted to sort of dig into that a little bit. Even before we get into the Bitcoin stuff and say like, where did this creativity come from?

And what were you doing before you had the Bitcoin related stuff? Have you always been working? Have you always been an artist? - So, this is the funny thing about it, Max. In a weird and wonderful way, I still don't consider myself an artist.

And that's perhaps not because of my ability. I just, I don't know, it's just something I was doing in my spare time. To be honest with you, I started doing it, I've always been kind of creative throughout my whole life and done some interesting things.

But I really kind of warmed up to it about seven, eight years ago now. So, I would just want to really, through a really tough time and had a bit of a mental breakdown at the time. It's getting dark quite quickly.

- No, it's good, we can loop back to the darkness because I always like to take it dark. I always like to really take it dark on this podcast. So, we'll loop back to that. Let's do the positive side of it.

You found something from that darkness and that was art. So, what happened there? Like, how did it help and why art? What happened? - It's just, I feel now I felt at the time, I felt just a bit, I just felt I needed to reconnect with the world, needed to express myself.

And so, yeah, I've done that. I've always done a lot of music, written a lot of songs for artists. And so, yeah, I just, I was trying to help myself. And so, I just turned my hand to a little bit of street art and spray paint, et cetera, and other forms.

And so, yeah, it's been an absolute revelation for me and something that I now want to continue and hopefully do more of as best as I possibly can. - Can you remember what that was like, that time where you first did something creative?

Can you remember that feeling of just being like, right, I want, I need to create a, was it a one, or was it like a need and can you remember a moment that grabbed you and what it was that you started with?

- I think it's in every human being, the desire and want to create, you know, if we're going philosophical on things, I think, you know, I think that's just inbuilt within us. For me, I think that the bit I always remember, so when I was going around doing my street art, I remember, I remember putting stickers up, you know,

I'd be remember where I am now. I was in a deserted street, you know, with one lamppost at the end and, you know, it was bright, it was dark, it was me, probably a few roosting pigeons and I was just really scared of putting the sticker up

like the carriage to do that really quickly for me now. And then every day I walked past it on my way to work and for me, that was almost like, it was quite funny, quite liberating, it seemed quite simple and it reconnected me to the world in a weird and wonderful way.

It's like that was my mark on the world, a very, very small mark, you know, really hope the pigeons appreciated it, you know, we'd go in around and to face it in the neighborhood, but, you know, and then it kind of just carried on from there and now I've just thrown myself into it and, you know, it's good and, yeah, I don't know,

have you, I know your cousins must be asking questions, I know you're a fantastic artist yourself, have you sold any art at all? - Firstly, yes, I am, I'm fucking amazing. - You are really, really fantastic.

- You are a artist as well, so that's good, yeah. - Yeah, no, again, I also don't really think of myself as an artist. I think it's because it's a bit wanky, like it's, I don't know, there's something about it where if someone's like, oh, I'm an artist, it's like, no, you create.

So like, I create stuff that I like and it makes me feel a certain way and then if people like it, it makes me feel good. I'm like, oh, yeah, they like that. But it's not something that, it's not something that necessarily like, I always put a massive amount of thought into, it's just that something will hit me,

something will strike me, it'll be a thought or a feeling and I need to get something out of me. And so the thing that's really helped me has been art, like a similar story and we won't go down this sort of dark path right now, but people who listen to the show will know this.

The reason I started my art was because I was really in a bad way, like really, really not happy or healthy in any way mentally. And I just started painting in the evenings for, I don't know, just to get some emotion out to feel again, to like, like you say, try and connect and it just became a complete addiction.

It was just like I dropped everything else, I just had to paint all night, every night. And it made me feel better. It made me, it's sort of almost like, you know, some people say writing a diary helps them process the way they're feeling and why they're feeling a certain way.

I can't write very well, this was my way of expressing it. And so yeah, like you said, I don't think of myself as an artist, but I love creating. And I think that's like a nice way to be, like almost if it becomes a profession, it's no longer, there's like a fine line where it no longer is so fun because you're doing it as your work.

Does that make sense? - It most certainly does, yeah. There's the, that's the whole idea of, I think being an artist and a creative, is that the freedom to try and do as you please to create as you will.

And then, yeah, people like it great, isn't it? But it's not to be all an end all. So yeah, I think you're right there. - I like your stuff that I've seen so far. I've not seen all the street art, but the two paintings that you've done, the Bitcoin specific ones, really, really cool.

They're very layered, they've got a lot of depth to them. And I think, you know, even if you're not into Bitcoin, they really pop their really like come alive and really, really interesting.

So were there your first Bitcoin related work? - Yes, that's the first time I've kind of turned my hand to anything Bitcoin related in terms of the art. Yes, it's just, I just guess it's kind of my style.

I don't know, yeah. You're the first person to see it, Max. So, besides me- - It's very privileged. - Well, and so you should be my friend. This is it, you know? World exclusive interview, world exclusive art reveal.

Is it live now? - Yeah, I think the website's live anyway, but you know, people are- - You wanna quickly, quickly shill it now? For anyone who's listening, you might wanna go and check it out.

Shill the website? - Yeah, it's, I think, is this, this is the live podcast now, Max. - I don't, I won't edit any of it out. I might edit a couple of my ums and r's and pauses, but other than that, everything stays in.

- You're perfect the way you are, Max. Don't change your thing. - Thank you. That's, that's pretty sweet. - Yeah, it's rebelmoney.art. So, if you wanna have a check and check it out, it's, I should, yeah, I don't know if it is complete, but I think because I have a complete, I was talking to cryptography the other day

as part of the 21ism, and that was incredibly eye-opening. And he, the way he talked about his art and what Bitcoin art should be and shouldn't be and things like that, so I might have to go and have a little look on my art and not change a few things, but just take some inspiration from it and move things around.

But he's, some of his works really, it's fine. Yeah, but if you wanna go and have a look there, chill it, if you like it, wonderful. If you don't, well, there you go. - Tough shit. - Yeah, indeed.

- Yeah, it's, it's, it's an interesting thing, isn't it? We, we all like what we like and sometimes it can't be explained. I've had it with my work, you know, some people come in and they just love something, they just go, I don't even know why.

I just love, I love this painting. And sometimes they go, I just don't get this one or I don't like it. And it's like, it's such a personal thing. And I also don't think that they ever necessarily a finish, like I'll find if something's around me and I walk past it enough, sometimes it will come

back off the wall and it will go back into the studio 'cause I'm like, no, I wanna change this, I wanna, and so, you know, sometimes a painting's been five different paintings before it actually ends up going and being sold.

The longer they lurk around, I'm just like, right, no, I need to, I need to do something with this. So they're not necessarily ever done. They're like a constantly evolving thing. And I think that is one of the reasons why I particularly liked the space we're in.

I think a lot of creatives are drawn to it is because nothing static, nothing seems to have really many boundaries. And that reminds me a lot of being in the studio is like, anything's possible.

Whatever I can imagine pretty much can happen. And it's an exciting experience. And I think that's what this space offers is like, you never bored in this, you know, you never bored in Bitcoin because there's always something happening.

And most of the time, the things that are happening are fucking world changing. It's a breath of fresh air from the sort of normal world, let's call it, and how people are behaving and acting and how stagnant things feel.

Was it a similar experience for you coming in as an artist and seeing this thing? How was that entry to the space? Like, how did you get drawn into this? Was it through the art or was it through something else?

- Oh, it was through for me. And then that's where my name has come from. It's rebel money. So it's Bitcoin for me is the ultimate form of protest. And that's what the angle I came, came at it from.

And self bank, a good friend of ours. Yeah, he's shilled Bitcoin to me. My word. - He's good at that. He's a very good chill. - He's relentless, isn't he? So yeah, he's the top guy. - So he brought you into it then?

- He did. So I'd actually, yeah, the whole, the whole kind of three, was it three touch points? - Four touches. - Yeah. So I actually mined Bitcoin back probably about 2014, something like that on my laptop or something like that as part of a minor pool, minor pool, tried it and thought, yeah, this is great, whatever.

Completely forgot the keys. And it wasn't much Bitcoin, but then probably, you know, a decent amount now. And then kind of forgot about it for a bit, looked at the whole thing around 2017 to thought, yeah, you know, it's, this probably isn't gonna work around block sizes and 'cause it was supposed to be a substitute for cash.

Then, yeah, then at a protest or demonstration with self-banked, and there is actually a video on the internet somewhere, at the actual point, the actual documented point of me or him shilling me Bitcoin.

- That's amazing. - There is, it's on this, so without doxing him, it's on there at the very point. And yeah, so since then, that was late 2019, or mid, yeah, 2019, something like that. And since then, yeah, got on board with that, but sorry, a bit of long path to go around, but that's what really got me eventually Bitcoin

is all these protests everywhere, all these show of, you know, which is great, you do still need some kind of social showing. That's quite important, but the ultimate protest is Bitcoin. That is the one thing that will hit the powers that be the hardest is in their pockets, anything else.

Anything else is they can just shrug off and it'll just, yeah, be forgotten about. So that's for me, and then that's provided my inspiration, then, in Bitcoin, and as a liberating source for all things, so yeah.

- Can I ask you without doxing you what you were protesting against, what you were raging against at the time when self banks raging against the machine in general. - Yeah. - Yeah, I can't go into too much otherwise it might.

- Okay. - But yeah, it was good. And yeah, they were, I think, I think, South Bank was wearing a Guy Forks mask as well. So easy, you know, it was the real deal. (laughing) And no, it wasn't on the build set at all for anything it was like a proper error.

- So, yeah. I love that that he's doing what the sort of, the institutions and the governments do. He's taking you at a time where you're feeling a lot of emotions, heightened emotions, and then he's just whispering in your ear.

He's like, have you heard about Bitcoin? - Just using those emotions to hook you, and it's clearly worked. - Yeah, he's done a decent job. - Sounds very good, Joe. - It wasn't that night as well.

He just kept going as well. - This is the thing, honestly. He just won't start. I don't know if anyone's met South Bank out there, but he's a persistent bastard, I'm not gonna lie. (laughing) - That's a lovable, persistent bastard.

So, and I genuinely have in the way the wonderful way he's changed my life for the positive. So, and I've let him know that. So if he's listening, I just wanna say thank you very much. You know, the trajectory my life has taken has changed dramatically from his intervention.

So, thank you very much. - And what a massive change it is, you know, these people that introduce us the same, I've had the person who introduced me on the show, one of the early episodes, I'll always thank him for it.

It was very, very bad timing for me, and it changed the course of my life quite drastically. But it was something that I can't imagine now going back and not sitting down with him and him not taking the time to explain.

And being very clever about the way that he explained it to me. Choosing things that would peak my interest, things that would matter to me. And yeah, without him, I probably wouldn't have found this.

Or it would have been much later, it would have been when there was good enough material, good enough, which is kind of getting there now, I suppose. But where these ideas, these grand concepts could be condensed into something that it could be listened to over the course of an hour or something like that to get the basic idea.

But it wasn't like that then. And these people that do take the time, yeah, they might badger you and people get annoyed, but it can change lives. And I think that's probably why we all do it still.

Like, I'm sure you are also an annoying Bitcoiner and you get told to shut up by lots of people and then people wish you'd stop, but I hope that the ones that you have convinced will thank you as well.

- Well, you've obviously talked to the people I've interviewed on 21, isn't it? (laughing) Poor skriller, poor cryptography. They think I'm an annoying Bitcoiner there. I did invite, I did invite crypto graffiti over for some T&G sandwiches actually.

So yeah, he hasn't arrived yet. I'm not going to lie, he's quite busy, I think, at the moment, doing some incredible art. So-- - Yeah, some amazing stuff. What's it been like for you diving in and doing the interviews?

- It's been a liberating one. The highlights of my lock tank, basically, Max, a very grim time, I think, for us all being caged like this, but I really, as you can probably tell, by listening to my voice quite a good gregarious person, like to get out there every so often, talk to people and that's really been taken away from me

is experiencing other cultures. And then to come along and join 21 is which I'm very grateful for the patience of everyone there, my word.

Going out now and exploring not only just different people's mindsets, thoughts, experiences, but these are people that are changing the world and through the art. It's just mind blowing to me.

It's just, you know, crypto graffiti and Skriller, you know, to two OGs on the, you know, so Skriller working with or minting rear pepays at the start, you know, your history and then crypto graffiti kind of doing not quite in that circle, but just doing stuff along the same side.

And I'm interviewing them in my kitchen, you know? What's going on? What is going on? You know, when, in what sphere, in what world, do you have these incredible artists who, in my opinion, will look back from now in years to come and see them as visionaries. And, you know,

I've had the absolute pleasure of talking to them for a bit. So, yeah, it blows my mind thinking about it. And 21ism is, you know, where it's at. And it's been one of the, it's definitely been the highlight of my 2021 so far and the end of 2020 as well. So.

- Yeah, it gives some excitement in life again. It's something where you can really see some change. You can be part of a movement that is going to be massive. I think like all of us are in agreement that we are right, right, right at the beginning of this thing.

And the change that will come from it, you're talking about, you know, you were at a protest and self-banked was whispering in your ear and pestering you and it's changed the course of your life.

How many more people is it going to change their lives of and how effective this protest is going to be? And I completely totally agree with you. And that's one of the things that really excited me early on is that it takes the power from people who otherwise couldn't have it taken from them.

I can't think of another way to do it. I think that it's just genius the way this whole thing has been set up. It's taking many different forms and it's bringing in people from all different walks of life and with different views.

It's like it's alive. It's something so special and that, like you say, when we look back in history, I think this stuff's going to be taught in schools. The time that we're going through now is going to be in the history books and written about and the community is still so tiny.

The fact that, like you're saying, like you're interviewing these guys in your kitchen, some of the people that I have on the show, blow my mind still, you know, people that I've been reading when I was first trying to wrap my head around this, people I consider to be some of the smartest people

on the planet and who are really changing this world for the better and we get to communicate with them and it's pretty addictive. It's like it's hard to step out from this world now. - It is.

It's all encompassing now and like everyone, you know, there's not a day goes by where I don't think about something to do or an hour goes by or I don't think something to do with Bitcoin.

Yeah, and I've now passed on some of that enthusiasm as well to some of my friends as well and now they're benefiting from it. So, and my family, so. - That's awesome. - Yeah. - That's awesome.

And are they sort of some, any of them as into it as you are or getting to that point or is it just energy you still for them? 'Cause you do see a progression, don't you? Like I've noticed with people very few who have listened to me.

There is a progression and there are steps like milestones that you can see in their behavior and the way they're thinking about it. And you're like, oh, you're there on your journey. You're about here on your journey.

Are you seeing that with the people you've introduced? - Definitely. Yeah, there's, so my brother, he's started off and you know, he was, you can see it when he's like, oh, I'm gonna wait till Bitcoin is like $50 cheaper and then I'm gonna get, you know, and just buy the damn Bitcoin man.

Just, it does, I don't think you understand, you know, it's the whole zoom out thing, whatever it is. Well, we say we'd save 50 years but it's probably gonna be less than that at the rate it's going, you know, it's not really gonna matter.

And, you know, and then, like yesterday, so you had all that and it's like, oh, I don't know whether you should have a, have a balanced portfolio in talking about that. And then yesterday, I got a tax from him going, laser raise, no, laser raise until 100k, you know?

So what's going on? I'm like, what's, what's gone on there? And we're talking, you know, two at the time period but he's, I'm slowly drifting stuff from him and yes, it obviously starts with the, the NGU number go up and that's definitely bringing him but then you can see it as the utility.

And now it's made in question everything. It's made for him in particular. He's found the finance as in the financial will, stocks, et cetera, self-savering and, you know, personal wealth and lessons from Bitcoin in that.

'Cause it teaches us, it teaches us so much stuff, you know? I've looked at, you know, like the politics side, things like that. You always gravitate and the art, obviously. So you always gravitate towards your favorite bits in Bitcoin.

You know, I know you enjoy your, your technology, don't you and your, and your-- - No. - You love it, Max, you love it. - No, I get so frustrated with it. It drives me up the wall. I'm useless with technology, but I think it's really important.

So I'm forcing myself. But it's definitely not the thing I find the most interesting. - What is the thing you find the most interesting? - Taking power from people who are taking the piss.

That is what gets me out of bed in the morning. That's what allows me to sleep at night. It's just knowing that you fuckers, your time's coming and nothing excites me like that. But there's only so much like you can get to a point where you understand what this thing can do and you understand the implications

and you understand how it's going to probably play out. But you then got to use the tools that are available to make things better for yourself and also teach others. And so that's kind of why I'm being schooled by Bitcoin Q&A and Catan and all these guys who are very, very good at it and they're sort of dragging me along to learn.

But yeah, I mean, it's amazing what it can do. I'm just not very good at doing it yet. - It is some of the technology involved. It's from an artist's point of view is absolutely, it's just mind blowing.

So we're having a chat about this the other day, about certain payment systems. So things like Spark, Bart and so crowd funding a piece of art, but having a piece of art and then through the Lightning Network there, removing bricks that the community can pay to remove a brick through the Lightning Network there.

And then you have a complete image for everyone to enjoy at the end of it. - Yeah, that's really clever. - It's mental. And then I'm convinced if you apply that technology to music where you can actually crowd fund an album by removing blocks or the next album after the one you record it.

So there's so much intrigue there and cryptography to you applied this principle to working with in Venezuela, where actually by each person, you did a bit more physically. So removed a bollivar that you painted and by doing that, then that money then went to education around Bitcoin in Venezuela

and it was taking down the face of it, dictator off the wall on these bollivars. - Brilliant. - So there's, yeah, so absolutely crazy. And the way it's going to change our lives is mental.

We can get paid by the second, you know? So in future, after this, Max, I won't always send you the invoice, mate, all right? It's going to be... - I can't afford it. - Yeah, well, it's true, mate.

You can pay me by the second. It lightened to your voice, you know, so... - And we all would. - Well, you know, you've either got it or you haven't maxed, haven't you? So... - That's it. - Yeah, this is all this lightning network stuff is...

I think one of the things that unlocks the potential for these like crazy ideas. And I find it weird that people get so in their camp and so annoyed at each other. Like there's so many people are like, ah, fucking the lightning network is pointless as shit.

Why are you even caring about that? And then there's, you know, everyone has their sort of stance. But at the end of the day, their opinions don't matter. And being able to put these ideas into reality, like you're saying, like the streaming of money, crowdfunding, all these different applications that it will have.

I mean, I actually use it now on Sphinx where people are streaming my podcast and I'm earning stats for it. Like, it's not something that it's being imagined. It's not two and a half years ago when I'm listening to Andres on Tenopolis talk about it and I'm getting all excited about this streaming money thing

and thinking of all the applications and going, oh my fucking God, this is amazing. Imagine when that happens. It's literally happening now. Like it's right at the beginning, but it's happening.

And yeah, it blows my mind and you've come up with, you know, you're talking to me about lots of things that I hadn't even considered. So is it the lightning network and these sort of applications that is exciting you the most at the moment?

Is there anything else that you're finding as or more exciting? - I think the, yeah, I think the lightning network is, obviously that holds a lot of excitement to the moment because the Bitcoin base chain, base layer, it's supposed to be boring by default, isn't it?

So, you know, if we're lucky, we might get Segwit or whatever, sorry, Taproot in the next decade or so. You know, if everyone decides to use it. I've got to bet with them, actually, if we're going to get it by the end of the year.

So what side are you taking? - I'm going on the side of yes because I have faith. And I think that the pace that Bitcoin is taking over the world at the moment, I think, everyone's going to have to get their asses in gear a little bit more.

So that'd be quite nice. - It doesn't seem like there's any real downside as far as I can understand there. I don't see why anyone would object to it, it seems. Everyone seems to be pretty like chill about it.

So, yeah, I would probably be on your side of the bet there as well. If we get it, great. If we don't, we still keep on going. There's not, you know, what happened at some point, it's not like make or break stuff as far as I can understand it.

- This is the thing with that, with the base layer, let it crack on, you know, just, or leave it, leave it be and just let it get on with it. And then, you know, in my opinion, all the, you know, all the work, I say work, all the bollocks, that's been done on Ethereum.

- You hold heavy bags still, don't you? - I don't hold any heavy bags. (laughing) I just really don't like Ethereum. I just, yeah, it goes against everything, you know, centralized system.

- Oh, I was explaining. - Should we shit on it quickly for just, I don't, let's take five, no, let's take four minutes to just allow ourselves to shit on it, 'cause I still have, and I'm sure you do as well, people who you introduce who would just say, oh yeah, yeah, no, I'm thinking of buying this Ethereum

and I'm thinking of buying it and yeah, it does all these things. Should we just do a quick shit on Ethereum session and explain like why it doesn't fucking work and why it's a waste of time?

- We can do, I'm trying to stay really humble here because what are they called the theorems, theorems, theorems, no beds, whatever they're called, yeah. - Methods. - Methods, yeah. I gotta stay humble because, oh God, Max, they are gonna come over to our side eventually and it's just like-- - Yeah, of course they are.

- You know, it's only a matter of time. - We're not shitting on them as people. - Oh no, definitely not, no. What they think is worth investing in and spending time on, which it just isn't.

If they just all put their focus and attention into something that matters, which is Bitcoin, it would be a much, much better place and there'd be a lot less time wasted in my opinion. It's just, it is a waste of time.

- It is, it is, I understand from what they're trying to do. I understand that and that's, they're trying to move fast and break things. - Break lots of things. - And that's not how you build a monetary network or anything that lasts a long time.

You know, if they all move fast and break things was not going to last then, is it? By definition. So what is great is it is a wonderful test net for Bitcoin and it's a wonderful test net for some of the lightning apps that I think just gonna basically go into, so they're gonna migrate from Ethereum over to Bitcoin.

I was talking to old Scriller, my boy, my boy Scriller. And top lad, by the way, can I just say one absolute gentleman, lovely, lovely chap, he summed it up. He wants his art to live forever.

And so how is he gonna do that? There's only one network that is going to last forever and that is the Bitcoin network last the longest anyway. So it's, it's, you know, yeah. I do get upset by these lot, but then I just have to stay humble and just stay positive, you know, it was no good and wind in myself up.

Although I do get, when I see with Vitalik's face, I do get actually slightly nauseous though. So, you know, I'm just gonna lie. - It's an annoying face. - It is. It's probably a nice guy, me, it personally, nothing personal against him, it's just.

- Do you think he knows though? But like, see, he's got an annoying face. - Yeah. (laughing) - No, do you think he knows that what he's doing doesn't end well? Like, I probably, I would probably think that he started with good intentions.

I think a lot of people would disagree with that, but like, I'm just, I have a hunch. I think like maybe he thought that it was gonna be a good idea. But do you think he knows now? Because if he does know now, then I think, fuck him.

Because he's stringing a lot of people along. He is gonna cause a lot of issues. And what is irritating is when they come up with this sort of flood against Bitcoin to try and lure people over to their shit coin.

And that's annoying because it's stopping people from actually finding something that would be a life raft for them and actually can change the world by just trying to confuse them. And I find that quite irritating.

- Yeah, I think, I think we're, you know, I've grown up around geeks, you know, Max, you know, and I've surrounded some of them with my best friends. And there's, they're wonderful at making things and trying to make things work.

There isn't however lot of foresight that goes on. And I just think he's got in too deep. And now it's just, it's something that you can't, you know, the VC's piled in. You know, again, using art and NFTs.

And, you know, they completely took that over to the Ethereum network, which was originally on, you know, the Bitcoin based chain. So yeah, it's, I think it's just too big now. It's behind his control.

He's the figurehead and he just doesn't know what to do. That's what, because I, despite my, despite the way I come across, I generally like to see the best in people. And I think I hope that, you know, he, I think he's just gone way past him now.

And yeah, I think he's just helpless. That's not to say, you know, in fitness, what would you do in his situation now if you had all these investors? - Honestly. - Yeah, I know what, okay, I know what's coming, but go on, go on.

Honestly, firstly, I would never be able to build what he's built. I'm not some fucking smart guy who can just like think this thing up and code it. But if I was, and I still thought the way that I do now, I'd be honest.

There's one thing I pride myself on. I'm like, not the smartest guy in the room. I can be quite rude sometimes and be quite abrupt. But I'll always tell the truth, because I think it's the most efficient way to live your life.

You'll always live in regret when you're not honest. It causes so many issues. It makes you a worse person. It's almost like a cancer. The more lies you have within yourself, it eats away at you.

And so I'll always just be honest. And I would, I would just say, look, I meant the best. I tried something, right? It didn't fucking work. I'm sorry, buy Bitcoin. - I'd be really refreshing when that...

- Yeah. (laughs) He's never gonna do it, but genuinely, that's what I would do. But, you know, we don't have the same mind and he can do things I can't. And maybe I can do something he can't, and that's tell the truth.

- Wonderful. Well, so can we get you into our face, Max? Will that be all right? - No, fuck that. - All we'll do is we'll set up a lightning wallet for you, and that's it. And then we'll put your smiley little face behind on an inch.

- No, thank you. - And then we'll just take the bricks away. (laughs) - Fuck that. - And then we'll release an album. We'll release an album for me. (laughs) - Max for PM, and then, yeah.

- Oh my God. Not for all the tea and gin, though, would I ever, ever do something like that. I just don't think there's gonna be a need for it. I just, so, you know, that's one of the things you were talking about, you know, you're at this protest, you're raging against the machine, you see this as an active form of protest,

and we fully agree there. What do you see this thing changing, let's say in the next five years, 'cause it's easy to say 50. I think we can all agree this completely fucking changes everything within 50, I think without question.

But in the next five, like, what do you see changing, and how do you see this protest moving, and yeah, basically, what changes? - That's gonna bring about to society, or just in general.

In general, like, what changes does it make to this world? What changes does it make to people's freedoms? What changes does it make to accountability of governments and banks and all the people that have the control now?

What do you see changing in that timeframe? And it's short, five years. - Annoyingly, I gotta be honest, I don't think there's gonna be a massive change in the next five years. I'd like to be, you know, like to go full breed love on you, but I just don't have that gear in me, I'm afraid.

So, but I do think people in power will get scared. That is genuinely the way I think it's going to go. And before there's a period where there will be, you know, say 50 years, or whatever it might be, the whole citadel thing, I think it's gonna, you know, the divide is gonna be people with Bitcoin and people without Bitcoin.

And it's, you know, all people got in earlier. And then people who perhaps come in a little bit later, the future is inevitable. It's going to happen whether anyone likes it or not. And I think there's gonna be some resistance on the way because these people have stayed in power for so long.

They've carved it out. They've made a system where there's no way they can lose. So you look at, there's a microcosm of that. What's happened with game stocks, where they just, if they don't like it, they'll just freeze you out of it.

So I'm obviously I'm hopeful for the future. And like anything that is built strong and built to last, it happens very, very slowly, not you Ethereum chain. So it's something that takes time.

It brings people in organically. It's, you know, it's not about, and that's why I love about Bitcoin as well. It just just brings people in slowly but surely. It's not this huge marketing campaign.

It's just something very slow, very organic. I personally believe Bitcoin is extremely close to nature in the way it's structured and operates as well. I think it's, even though it's obviously on a manmade network, I believe the way it operates and the way it infiltrates and everything is just incredibly organic issues,

a weird statement, I guess. So yeah, I think it's gonna get quite nasty, to be honest with you at some point, but that's fine, 'cause we'll all go and live in the 21-ism Citadel somewhere.

And yeah, it's gonna be a great place, you know? - Get some land, get back to nature, have some sort of freedom again. - It was interesting what you're saying about, you know, Bitcoin being like nature.

A few people have sort of drawn this conclusion and, you know, I said earlier, like, it feels like it's alive. You know, this is something that's living, it really feels living. And a few people have drawn parallels with mycelium and, you know, I've heard people say, oh, it's kind of like bamboo, you know, it goes down,

it spreads its roots over a long period of time and then suddenly bang, it's up and once it's there, it's almost impossible to remove. And I think that's a nice way of looking at it because, again, it sounds a bit sort of, maybe a little bit crazy, but I kind of think maybe this is almost mother nature,

this is something that just had to happen. This is like a way of bringing us back and the world back to like a reality, a way to bring us back off a path that was going to be very, very dangerous and it almost does feel like it's like an inevitable or it's meant to be and it's like a saviour,

which sounds a bit weird and almost religiousy. But do you know what I mean by that? Like, it's bringing us back to where we should be as human beings and bringing us back to like humanity, like, you know, treating each other right, you know, family values and this kind of stuff.

- I completely agree. I think it's, I think as human beings are, hub brains and minds have been hijacked by the media and we've just got so, so good at manipulating each other. And you look at, yeah, as you said, I've done work in advertising and marketing

and things like that and the whole concept of, if you're an excellent marketer, the good marketers, they target your logical brain, the excellent marketers, the great marketers, the ones that go for the lizard brain, the bit that you can't control.

And I feel that, you know, as you say, that is going too far and it's, like you say, like the Gaia theory, like you're trying to get up there. I think Bitcoin is a counterbalancing measure that, as you say, was inevitable at some point because we've been just taking the piss for so long and it just cannot keep going the way it is.

So it is a force of nature here and that's what makes it so inevitable and why I've got so much faith in it. So yeah, I went off and went a little bit spiritually there, Max. No, I like it.

I think you're right and it's something that I think about a lot and I used to think about probably a lot more when I had the time and I wasn't diving into the tech stuff so much. It was something I really thought quite deeply about, bringing it back to that dark side and, you know, what we're talking about before.

I think by the sounds of what we both experienced a point in life where we questioned what was around us and didn't feel that anything was right. I don't want to put words in your mouth but that's how I felt, I felt like my life was pointless.

I felt that what I was doing with it, although I was actually earning quite well and I had the toys and I was having a lot of fun in life in some ways, it felt really shallow and empty and like I was almost like I was lying to myself about what was important and I just thought, well, when I die, I don't know that I've made

a positive change to this world. I think if anything, my existence has been pointless and at worst, it's actually been detrimental and so it really made me question everything and made me lose the plot a little bit and question everything and completely have to rethink my entire life and I think that's probably why when I found Bitcoin

and started to understand it, I went from a place of complete despair to hope and that's sort of what you were explaining there about sort of that the healing power and bringing humans back to being human.

I wasn't seeing a lot of human behavior, I was seeing a lot of really to get by and do well, you had to be quite a selfish asshole and that the way people were treating each other was pretty despicable and the things that people valued were not actually important, they were not real, everything felt fake and it just didn't feel,

it didn't feel like it was certainly anything I wanted to experience for much longer or anything that I wanted to bring children into and I think that changes with Bitcoin. And so again, like I say, I don't wanna put words into your mouth, but was it a similar feeling that you had or why did you feel the way you did

and actually come to art to try and get over it or find yourself again? - Well, I think we're reasonably similar at age, I'm not sure, mate, I don't know how old you are. - '46. - Thought so, mate, yeah.

- Yeah, you look fucked, yeah. - Yeah, good. - Yeah, no, I think we're pretty similar. - Yeah, it just feels like we've been on this conveyor belt for so long, you go to school, go to primary school, you're told exactly what to draw, write, whatever it might be, you're almost shaped

into this machine that can do tasks that is expected to use in society, which it does contribute to a good society, I'm not disputing that fact, but how many bankers accountants do we need?

And we're told by parents in obviously good faith that you've got to do this in order to be successful, et cetera. And there's that pushing, there's that. That's certainly, again, I don't know if it's happened to you, it happened to me and I went down the path.

Feels like I've lived around about three or four lives when the path I started on was completely not anywhere near arts or anything like that. And I think this is happening a lot and people are beginning to question now to come off that and Bitcoin does make you question things.

The fundamentals, well, many obviously, is a key fundamental, begin to question money, begin to question, obviously, I've always questioned authority has been part of my character, but actually in a constructive manner rather than just going off on one.

So I do think, I do think, you know, it's, I think we are conditioned in the way we are from an early age. I mean, there was a story my mate was telling me and he was, if you had the one about the fishermen, it's not a long story, Max, I don't worry, I won't bore you with any of this.

- I was thinking, I've heard a few fishermen stories, but I don't know which one it would be. - I'll go with this one, all right. This is, by the way, this is a story telling, it's not one of my strengths as you're just about to find out right now, all right.

It was this fisherman, Max, yeah. And business guy came up to me and said, "Ah, that's great." You know, you've got one fish, that's great. So, you know, if now you had a bigger rod, you could actually get three fish.

Oh, okay, great, yeah, then what? Then, okay, if we, you know, then with that, with the bigger rod, then you could actually get more money, you could buy nets. And then you'd be like, yeah, great.

And then, well, then, with more money, then you can buy a troll or whatever it might be. And then they go, yeah, and then what? And then you can do whatever you want. And then the fisherman says, "Well, I'll probably just go fish then, you know."

(laughs) With my rod, with my, with what I got now. And that's kind of what we're, it kind of, there's loads of those type of stories around. But the point is, as you were hinting at there by worldly goods, obviously we need enough to provide for ourselves and live a wholesome life.

But no more than that, and yeah. - And the purpose, isn't it? It's like, like you're saying, why strive and do all of this stuff to spend the majority of your time on this earth doing something you hate, so that you can spend a small amount of your time at retirement if you're lucky, doing what you want when your body's fucked

and your mind might still be alright if you're lucky. Why do people put themselves through it? Why don't we do what we enjoy? And I think it's something that you don't even question. I was obsessed with earning money like when I was younger, probably partly because of my experiences

when I was younger and it sort of shaped me a certain way where I was obsessed and like very, very worried about money. And so I just went off and just like, you know, with blinkers on just fucking after the money.

And then you're like, when I get the money, I'm gonna be happy when I get the money, when I've got this car, when I've got this house, when I've got this and I'm gonna be happy. And then you get there and you're like, well, feel pretty fucking empty here.

I'm not enjoying my days. I'm working with a load of dickheads. I don't have any time. I'm tired. What am I doing? And I think people are so busy, especially now with all what's going on with the fiat fuckery, people are kept so busy that they can't even question, really question what they wanna do in life.

Like what makes me happy? Like they saying that a person just wants to fish. Well, there's probably a lot of people who are in high powered jobs working 18 hours a day doing something they hate, where they'd actually love to be doing woodworking or just something.

They'd love to spend their time doing that. And it's sort of taught to you that you have no value unless you have value like currency value. You're worthless unless you have that and that's what people are judged on, which is crazy.

You know, like you're saying, it's important to a certain point to put food on the table and to provide for your family and be healthy and, you know, all the rest of it. But why is it that people are thinking the only value out there is money?

Do you think that that's something that is pushed in schools because it's very, very convenient for people to be off on that path and not really questioning things? - Yeah, I think it's something that's been taught to us by appearances, isn't it?

It's, if you work hard enough, you can get anything you want, you know? And it's a great, that's a great mantra to have when put in the right context. But, you know, it's, I don't think it's something that's going to, well, it's definitely not something that is sustainable.

And I think that's the key thing. It's a lot of my friends with, you know, young families, you know, both parents having to work. How is that sustainable? How is, you know, how is a, it used to be that one person went out to work and the other person was, you know, looking after the children, et cetera.

Well, I suppose it was a long, long way back. It was just, you know, two people looking after the children, which was great. And, well, okay, one person working, one person working after the children.

And I just, you know, I just, as you say now, it's just got to the point where normal families and communities are broken up by this feared way of life, this bi thing, spend things, create fear, create, create all these feelings.

So you kept going on this treadmill. You're a failure if you don't, whatever, insert fear thing here, you know, you're a failure if you don't go to the gym. You know, again, not going to the gym is, go to the gym is not in itself is not a bad thing.

But if you don't have, you know, ripped abs and look like Superman or wherever it might be, you know, if you don't have a top executive job or wherever it might be, all these messages are constantly given to us all the time.

And it's just tiring. So it's a lot of pressure. It's massive, isn't it? And, you know, as far as, as far as the next generation underneath us, they have it even worse. So, you know, there are, so this is going to be even tougher for them.

So it's, that's where I think the, hopefully praying that the revolution will happen there. And people will opt into this wonderful gift that's been given to us. And it is an absolute gift.

It's the best invention ever. But definitely, yeah. Yeah, it's just so good. It's just unreal. It's, yeah. It's, yeah, I can't really describe how, I was trying to describe how beautiful it was to someone the other day.

And they probably thought I was right, weirdo. - Probably. - Yeah, they do. They'd be right. And, but it's, yeah. So it's, we need to grasp this and we need to, this opportunity with both hands.

And if we do, I believe that, no, we'll definitely make the world, make the world a better place or make the world somewhere worth living. So. - Yeah, I think it's like, it's allowing people time, you know?

People don't have any time anymore. It does definitely feel like people's workdays are getting longer. The amount of emails are getting more and more. The amount of stress is getting more and more.

The things that they really want to buy are getting further and further away from reality, you know, having a home and these kind of things that are getting drilled into at school, like get on the property ladder, do this, do that.

And like, there's these kids going, well, I'm working fucking 16 hours a day. I'm doing what I can, but I can't afford the car. Let alone, like, you know, you have to finance everything. I've got to let alone a fucking house, don't be ridiculous.

But it's still shown in the media as something that's realistic. It's shown, you know, everywhere they go on Facebook or whatever social media platform they use, they'll see that typical picture of like, you know, either a young couple or someone standing in front of a door with their keys with hashtag new home or something like that.

And then they feel like shit, 'cause they're like, oh fuck, how have they managed it? And I haven't, and most of the time, most of the time, it's because mommy and daddy or grandparent has left them some money and allowed them to have a deposit most of the time.

And some people don't have that luxury and then they're thinking, oh fuck, I'm a failure. And they're not a failure a lot of these people, though they're actually smart, they're working hard, they're doing what they can, but they're being shown a reality that's not actually there.

And I think it's screwing with people's minds and it's something that, you know, you constantly see suicide rates are going up and a lot of depression, especially in young males is going up and all this stuff.

And the only thing that I think is reasonable to assume is because it's this fucking fiat standard. It's forcing these sort of things to happen and get worse at quite a rapid rate. And I'm talking about this a fork in the road here.

I just think it's so clear, the difference between the two. And if someone takes the time to learn about Bitcoin and they do invest some money into Bitcoin and they see their value increase, that allows them time to think about their life, to think about what matters, to think about what they wanna do.

And, you know, we only get one shot, we only get one spin and then it's gone. And to waste it all in a cubicle, in an office, doing something you hate with people you hate, to buy a fucking handbag or whatever, some bullshit that's got a logo on it that someone like you would sell really well to them.

(laughs) - I like my handbag collection. I'll have you know, thank you very much. - Yeah, well, I can't see it today, but the one you were wearing last time we spoke was beautiful. What was it, a Chanel or something?

- Come on, mate, Louis Vuitton. Get over it. - Oh, sorry. (laughs) - I had to work in O12 hours, don't see, 12 hours, 12 years, don't seeings breeze for that. - I was gonna say, fucking what job are you doing?

- 12 hours. - Yeah, 12 hours. - Shoplifting from scenes breeze, man. (laughs) - I like it. - To do that, but yeah, just how interesting it is. How many days do you think an average person has to live?

Put a number to it. - You have a billion heartbeats, I know that one. - Let's talk this. - But days, 300 and 65 times eight. - No, no, no, no, no. - I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.

- Go, go. - 12. - 12, what, days? - Days. - Okay, yeah. - You have 12 days to live. - 12 days to live, mate, that's great. It's half an hour, thank you, Commander. So now you have the answer, and this is a fun, little interactive quiz that the listeners can do at home.

Is the answer is 27,000, so that's it. That's your last one. - 27,000. - On average, you know, so it could be less than that, and so when you think about it like that, that's all you've got, so get out there.

- That's very scarce. - It is, it's a scarce asset, and you know, that's the only two assets that matter at the moment are time and the thing closest to time, which is, you know, we talk of store of value, value is time.

So the coin is a store of, the best store of time that you could possibly have, you know. - This is why people call it a time chain. I've heard that a few times, and it makes a lot of sense.

- Yeah, 27,000, it's not a lot of time on this earth. - It's not made, so, you know, but it means I get to spend, you know, I get to spend, well, what does it know? An hour or so of that time talking to you about Bitcoin.

So it's some incredible, you know, positive experiences to be had within that time that we all need to grab. - Yeah, absolutely. - Yeah, it is, it's fantastic. And we're just very lucky to have found this and have persisted and learned about it.

And, you know, it's already started to change our lives, like you just said, you know. It's allowing us to speak to people we wouldn't otherwise speak to, and experience things we wouldn't otherwise experience.

And I'm pretty fucking confident that it is gonna change our lives financially as well and give us freedoms that I couldn't have probably imagined a few years ago. And I hope that we all do something special with that and that we pay it forward in some way and do some good and continue to make this revolution happen.

You know, allow more and more freedom for people and it could be a very, very exciting world. And I think that's what's cool about what we're doing with 21ism and being able to interact with you guys every day and, you know, push these ideas and push this message in a positive, exciting way using art and music.

And it's not so approachable for everyone to just say, go and read the sovereign individual, go and look at the history of money, go, you know, most people are like, "Ah, I'm not gonna do that."

But you can actually explain to people very well using art and using music. And I think that's something really special. - I agree completely. I think people get it. And, you know, you'd look at, obviously I've read the Bitcoin standard by Safedeen and, you know, I don't agree with some of his statements on art.

Oh my word, no. - Yeah, I know, I know. I thought that as well. - I almost turned me off the book that did. It was this close to put especially, you know. But that's, we've got to work through the mediums that people enjoy and that's why, and this is a whole nother topic for another day, why memes are so powerful,

because it works in a laughy jokey way, but also has a very serious message behind them. And it's that way, as a marketer, to penetrate that logic brain and to get into that, to the lizard brain, the messages.

So all those memeers out there, which, you know, we've just seen this week, it was this week or last week that they managed to get into the mind. Yeah, the laser eyes, laser rays, 200K. - I had MTC on last night.

It's just gone live a couple of hours before we started speaking, talking about the laser eyes. Yeah, I mean, fuck. They got everywhere. - They did, they got everywhere. - Rich is man in the world.

Senators, US senators. Absolutely. So, who came up with that? - Was it the, I know it was the lightning strike team, wasn't it? So, it was a Greg's answer. - Yeah, it was a group of them, and obviously MTC, and I'm trying to think who else was in.

It was RD, RD was involved, I think. Who else did they have? I'm trying to think. There was loads, yeah, Greg. The labra hodl, labra, labra. Yeah, quite a few of them, but yeah, it's brilliant.

It was just, you know, just, like you say, they're so powerful, reaching these people with a meme. Like, you can't reach these people in any other way. - No, it's just people in the, you know, I, first of all, obviously, the computer geeks that kind of got Bitcoin understood it's start with,

they found it very difficult to make it so eloquent for people. The new ads, you know, Bitcoin standard, whatever it might be, that, you know, again, decent book, but just so difficult to get into.

God, can you imagine, like, you can't imagine, like, people out where I live in this part of the world, anyone even, you know, picking up. - Reading it. - Yeah, the language is really, really difficult.

So it's about, and as we said, you know, sailors absolutely, you know, he's, was it you that told me that sailors beach pretty much just took down how I've known. - Yes. - Yeah, it's. - Oh, yeah.

He refined, it was him, and I can't remember the other guy's name now, and yeah, it was one hour long. It was obviously rehearsed, but fucking hell, it was concise. It was, I mean, anyone who has any real financial knowledge, not the people who have read the financial times and think they know what they're talking

about, anyone who has any real knowledge, will listen to that, and they will slap themselves so fucking hard for not buying Bitcoin before, and they will run and get to the closest computer, phone, iPad, whatever, and they will start buying as much as they can.

- Yeah, it's about slowly disseminating these messages, and it's almost like a translation process, isn't it? That takes time for, yeah, I really like breed love stuff, and all the high-level thinking, and obviously Safer Dean's work, and then I'm trying to, trying to get through the sovereign individual now,

I can only do it in short bursts, but it's about disseminating these messages to try and make it more appealing and digestible to the common man rather than just hardcore cyber hornets, you know, just going nuts on it, you know?

So beer, here we go. Do you think we'll get to a Bitcoin conference issue, Max? - No, 'cause I refuse to have a vaccine. - A bit enough, mate. - I wish, I wish, I wish, but out of principle, I spoke to MTC about this yesterday.

I'm not fucking having it. I refuse to have it out of principle, and unfortunately, I believe that means I won't be traveling anywhere. I think I could be wrong, and I hope I'm wrong, and I would love to get out to the Miami one, I don't know, the people. - Oh, that'd be unreal.

- That one, no, I can't go this year, but that would be unreal. I was hoping to look at something, perhaps in Europe, and if I'm not sure if anything's been scheduled at all. - Yeah, I'd love to as well.

I heard Riga was very, very good. - Yeah. - But yeah, I'd be well up for it, if we're allowed to travel, then I'll be. - I know, it's horrible. - Please come and travel. - Please let me try.

Please let me into a supermarket to buy food. - I know, I know. - Fuckers, well, like we said, that's why we're here, isn't it? - Exactly, yes. - We're doing what we can. This is the best form of protest, and it really is the best form, and there's not a lot else we can do.

We can shout and scream all we want, but it does fuck all. The best thing is just stacksats, and-- - Be good human beings. - That's it, yeah. - That's best human beings. - Just be kind, generous, and just lead the way.

That's it. We just have to be role models for the human race. If they follow my lead, then the human race is fucked, basically. - One, two. - But no, it's not. It's been really great getting to know you off air, and great to chat a little bit more today, and get to know a little bit more about rebel money, and why you're here.

And it's great to be working with you all the time, mate. It really is, it really is a pleasure. But is there any final message or meme you want to put across some message you want to refine, some parting comment, or anything that you wanted to say, or you're excited about to leave the listeners with?

- No, not really, Max. I'm not a lie. That's it, mate. You've got it all out of me, yeah? I just buy Bitcoin. Don't even think about it. Just buy it, that's it. It's, yeah. I haven't got any words of wisdom, I'm afraid.

Just, you know. - Well, that was very good. Just buy Bitcoin. I like it. - Be the fisherman, if you want something like, you know. (laughs) - Any advice on handbags quickly? - Yeah, mate.

Basically, the sparkly, the better. - Sparkly, the better. - Yeah, exactly. - But still, them don't buy them, so you can stack sets. - Of course, of course, mate. That's the most efficient way of doing things, isn't it?

So, thank you for having me on the cast. - Still handbag stacks sets. - Yeah, that should be it. That might be my next art piece, so... - All right, mate. Yeah, thanks for coming on. Thanks for producing the art that you are.

Anyone who's listening now, go and check out the art. It's really, really fucking cool. And I'm very happy to have popped your virginity and had you on the show before anyone else. It's been great.

- Thank you, mate. Can I just make that clear? It's not actual virginity, but podcast virginity. (laughs) But yeah, that has been great. Thank you, mate. - All right, cool. All right, bud, we'll speak soon.

- Yeah, cheers, mate. Bye.