EP75 Bitcoin podcast with @soulexporter

Bitcoin is close to becoming worth this.

Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison.

The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Alright, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back, everyone. Today's guest is Acid Lord at Soul Exporter on Twitter. I really enjoyed this one. What a fucking amazing pleb this guy is. I can't believe this is his first one-on-one podcast.

Any other podcasters listening to this get on him immediately. I had a great time. I hope you enjoy listening. Before we dive in, thank you to my sponsor's coin floor. If you're in the UK and you're looking for DCA, you can use my referral code in the show notes to get discount on your purchases.

Enjoy the show. On a different PC with my Twitter, and I use my work PC for audio, with better and stable internet connection. That sounds lovely. What's that like, a stable internet connection?

I've never experienced one. Well, I have two internets here since I'm working from home all the time. So stable internet connection means it falls out less than the other one. [Laughs] I have two as well, but I still have problems all the time.

I never seem to get it working. That's the dream. Yeah, I think we need Elon Musk's Star Link system. Yeah, that sounds so cool. I don't know enough about it. Are we basically there? We're not too far from the beta or the testing.

I heard with the last launch, they were saying that they need one more launch or two more launches for a hemisphere or something that they were saying. So then it should be enough to cover the world.

But then it's still better this, there's only, I think. I desperately want one of those because I'm selling all my property, I'm going on the road and I need something stable. 'Cause at the moment, I'm having sort of rely on 4G and it's not always so good, especially if you need good quality to record.

So, well, look, welcome to the show. That was a bit of a random set. [Laughs] I've just gone straight into it. But yeah, thank you for coming on. I'm really excited for this one. I'm glad to hear that you have a wine in hand.

I've gone for a gin, which is very nice. But yeah, it's great to get a chance to catch up with you. You told me this is your first podcast, is that right? Yeah, my first one on one, at least.

I had one with Princey, but I was with Dim and Richard from Voice Paper. Yes, I heard that one. That was for the 21 isn't one, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was very good, actually. So yeah, I'm glad you decided to come on and welcome to the show.

And thank you for all that you've been doing with naming the podcasts and all the stuff that you've been doing recently. It's very cool. For anyone who doesn't know you from Bitcoin, Twitter, can you do a little introduction for us, please?

Oh, yeah. So, I'm so an exporter. I'm a little bit of a nobody online. [Laughs] Just a big fan of what Dim was doing and he asked me to join with the Voice Paper. So I helped him out with the Voice Paper, with a lot of administration, a bit of work in the background.

And that's mainly me, I guess. [Laughs] I never had to introduce myself like that. [Laughs] That's all right. And with that said, thank you for having me because I don't consider myself a big podcast and interviewee material. [Laughs] I want to get the plebs on.

I want to get the people who are going to change this world. And that's proper Bitcoin as it's the ones who lurk on Bitcoin Twitter. It's the ones who get involved with these sort of projects, like the Voice Paper.

It's the ones that take the time, not just people who dump a load of money in and think that's it. So, no, it's an absolute honour to have you on, mate. Thank you. I also have been speaking in the background a little bit to MTC, just on the phone to him briefly.

And I was like, you know, I've got Sol Exporter on. Any other interesting bits that I should ask about. It sounds like you've got a lot going on, so I'm really looking forward to dig into it.

But let's start with the Voice Paper because that's happened very recently. We featured it for 21ism. I was very, very proud to be asked and be involved. And I know you did a lot of work on that.

So, Dim was on recently. We talked a little bit about it. But how did that come about and how did you get involved with it? Oh, yeah, I was talking to Dim often. First of all, for his work of the Pultardia, which I really love.

And then I saw, I forgot his name, somebody had Avatar that he made and I asked him to do also a custom one for me, just because I like his work so much. And we got really talking a lot because I had some specific ideas on that and we became virtual friends.

And I saw him in a Twitter doing the Voice Paper out of his head in the car while he was driving. And after two minutes, it stopped. So I said, oh my God, such a pity that it stopped while I didn't continue.

I never realized before that Twitter has a two minute limit. I said it was so relaxing. It was the first time that I took really the effort to listen to it. He had a very soothing voice, I thought.

And then he came up with the Voice Paper idea and he asked if I wanted to, well, first he came up with the Voice Paper and I just joined in instantly as just selecting my line. And then he came up with a question if I would like to help.

My first question was instantly what I have to do because I have no experience in that. And it was just administration helping out with that. And I said, perfect, I can do that. And from one came the other.

First was just assigning the lines, managing a bit the Telegram group because a lot of people started tripping in. First it went slow and then suddenly it was a complete rush seeing that everybody got a line and that no double takes were on lines.

And everybody, Richard made a nice example or explanation what would be the best. And then people started sending in their original takes. And some people had an, for example, something portrait or they wanted their avatar because they wanted to stay on and on them.

And for one of those, there was just an avatar in portrait. And then we just started to first try to get it in landscape and then MTCPDC said, maybe I can make it move in and up. And he made an animation, I did the background a bit and it just all flowed into each other that we just very organically finding each other.

Everybody did their part there and it was just beautiful to be a part of that. And to see how all those different people came with their own takes. And every time we did something, I always made sure that I went back to the person saying, "Hey, look, I tried this.

"Would you like that or not?" And because it's their creation. That was our main take within the core team, let's say. Everybody has their own contribution. It has to be theirs. And everybody had positive feedback on what we did.

So it was just beautiful to be a part of that. - Yeah, it was, like I've already said, I was so proud to be part of that. I thought that it was just a part of history and it encapsulated Bitcoin culture.

It really just showed how people couldn't collaborate and how creative people can be in this space when they have something they really care about. And it's just, yeah, it was amazing. I really loved as well, just like you said, the personal different ways that people delivered what they were delivering.

And you really felt the personality. And obviously you had your son involved in it as well. And like these sort of things just, they made it so special. It was such an exciting project. And so with your son, how has this happened that he's got involved in Bitcoin and I can only imagine that as a father,

that is something you must be incredibly proud of to have your son involved in Bitcoin and to this level, that's pretty fucking cool. - You have no idea how proud I am after the point. That's really, but it's, if I can say fault, it's all MDC, BTC's fault.

(laughs) - Everything is. - Everything is. (laughs) - No, I'm really grateful for that actually because that started my perhaps life. So, such ledger, MDC BTC's creation came up with a contest to say, to ask how do you teach your children a low time preference, I think the question was.

Yeah, my son had in kindergarten, was with a few friends. They had the idea or the dream or the plan, like old children have their play time ideas. They wanted to start a company. And I don't even remember what a company was about that they said, but they called it PXXI and I kept telling him,

well, if you want to do that, you have to do that. You have to chase your dreams and just keep the name as remembrance that you had that dream and that you're chasing your dream. And I did that story on Twitter and yeah, that won us the SADS ledger.

And it was then that Solaxboy, he only got that name after we started it recording, but yeah, he always wanted to do a YouTube video or something like that. And I said, well, let's just do it.

We can do that as a thanks for the SADS ledger. And that was the first video we made. Or I wanted him to do it alone, but he wanted me there as well. I really hate my voice. That's also why maybe I don't like that.

- We all do, nobody likes their voice unless they love themselves a little bit too much. - Yeah, don't have that problem. But yeah, then, so we started using the SADS ledger completely wrong.

No, actually we started good, but my son also said, well, I don't find any tasks to do for SADS because working is just too much fun. And yeah, we just started noting down fun stuff we did together and for that he weren't SADS and fun things can be like working in the garden.

He has his own vegetable plot or raised bed. - Very cool. - Or we went paddle boarding and all those memories we started writing down. And from tasks, it quickly turned into fun stuff we did together and it became stacking hard memories.

And it's that fact that or the SADS ledger that made the click in my head that the only thing scarier than SADS is time. And you have to stack hard memories and SADS together and that makes it just so beautiful.

And then the low-time preference comes with within that low-time preference, you have to always make time for your family, for the people you love. - Yes, that's so true. And what really is amazing about that is that the more involved you get in Bitcoin and the stronger your hands are, the more time it allows you

and the more time it allows you with what really matters and that's your family. That's such an incredible world-changing thing that starts in your own home. You don't have to change the whole world.

You're just changing what's in your own home and you're being able to appreciate time with your family. And there's nothing more powerful than that. There's nothing more important than that.

And it's amazing to hear these sort of stories. So I love that that's happening. And I love that it seems that he's taken to it so well. It's incredible. - Yeah, it's really cool what he's doing and how his mindset is also into it.

The strength of Bitcoin is everybody says number go up and everything, but for me, Bitcoin already achieved its goal to change my life. If Bitcoin would go to zero, which I don't believe, but if it would go to zero, still it changed my life for the better.

I met so many beautiful people. I spent now more quality time or I'm very, how to say, I spent the same amount of time with my kids and my family, but I experienced it more intensively, I would say, or I'm more in the moment.

Whereas before thinking about other things like how would I do this, like thinking five days ahead while not enjoying the now. And that's the only worry I have done for the future is how does the future look for my children?

And that is where then the hope of Bitcoin comes in because you can live in a now because, you know, I am and a lot of smarter people than me are building a better future. One where the hope is still there for my children.

And then the worries fall away. - Yeah, it's so key as well, isn't it? It's because, you know, I think so many people get a little bit lost in life and they get so busy just trying to just try to live and pay the bills and that you start to forget what you're doing it for.

You start to lose sight of what's important. And I think that happened so often, definitely guilty of it myself. You do sort of get to a point where you're not enjoying the moment, you're just thinking about the next thing and the next thing and how do I move forward.

And I think once it clicks and that time comes where you go, I'm pretty damn confident in this system and I'm pretty damn confident it's gonna change the world. And it allows you to take that step back and let you said hope is such a key part of it.

Hope that you have a child who you're thinking, I'm gonna make this world a better place for them, you know? I'm gonna make sure that this place is a better place for my children and there's nothing else on the planet that can do it.

To have that, I mean, like I've got no one in my normal life, really no friends or family or anyone who actually cares about Bitcoin to any extent. But yeah, to have your son involved is so cool.

So like I know he does the videos, so he's done like Shamory and a few other bits and unboxings and stuff. To what level does he get involved past that? Like, is he asking questions that are surprising you?

Is he sort of digging in and understanding or like interested in certain aspects more than others or like I'm trying to get into the mind of someone? - Yeah, there are different elements, but first of all, the videos is just a father-son project.

It's just fun time, one of those quality moments for me and him and yeah, we put it on YouTube, but we're, we don't want any viewers extra or I just posted once on Twitter and then I forgot about it.

It's not like that I'm trying to promote that. But on the, the thoughts, he was actually, before I was considering myself a full Bitcoiner, I was talking to my father-in-law about money and how it's getting de-validated and I saw the out of the blue, he came already with, oh yeah, that's because Nixon went off the gold standard

in '79, I was like, oh my God, what the heck is he talking about? - I knew about it, but I didn't know it was Nixon, I didn't know it was in 1979, '71, I was like, he's really teaching me on those things, so he was already, yeah, he's a YouTube generation I would say and I was even before we were really diving into,

into Bitcoin deeply together. But on the other thoughts, I have to say, he's still a child, so he likes doing what I did as a child, it's like strategizing war games, fighting invisible enemies and everything and we were on a week off and we did daily long walks when his sister was asleep and our favorite game was "The Mind Adele"

which is a theory game where we hybridize about how to build Citadel or different scenarios in Citadel's building and what would be tactical, strategical things, so he's really, you know, the weapons is the kid stuff and he's inventing weapons to defend, but the fun part is I am now more talking

to him as a critical person than as a caring father, so I don't go too far in his front, I go very far with him in the fantasy, but I'm critical about it, so for example, I said, well, but if you do this, if you use violence, then they're gonna come with more violence back and they can bring more troops or an army,

a country can always bring an army to a Citadel, so what would you do against that? And he came up with "The Mind Adele" principle, where again, such a weird or deep coin theory, he was saying, you have three kinds of warfare, that's the first World War, a trench warfare, the Blitzkrieg, where you move fast and further

and the guerrilla, and so the only option for Bitcoiners would be a guerrilla movement where you have different small citadels and it can move from one to the other, don't be where the enemy would be.

It's like, okay, cool, that makes sense. - Yeah, so the mesh, and so I was just gonna say, so the mesh to Dell that you're talking about, is he basically saying, okay, decentralize these citadels but work together, that's incredible, so he's basically rebuilding the Bitcoin network but for people and for trade, and it sounds like.

- It's something like that, yeah. - Wow, that's really cool. - Yeah, it might be also because, yeah, I'm jumping now on a different track, I'm sorry for that, but. - You can, no, no, no, I like it.

- We, I have a problem that I am like you, a side of my son, I don't have anybody in my neighborhood who's remotely interested in the philosophy of Bitcoin. There are a lot of people that are interested in Bitcoin as how can I make quick money, and how can I sell it again for fiat?

I'm not interested in those people, I'm actually losing friends, or people that I consider as friends are becoming acquaintances quickly. So I saw Bitcoin Labrador on Twitter posting are there any good meetups in Europe?

And I responded instantly with, we should make one ourselves. Because I'm not, in my family's situation, I cannot easily travel to, what is the, the one in the regard, the honey badger? - Honey badger, yeah.

- So a few people were saying, oh, let's go there. And I'm like, okay, yeah, my wife is completely not interested. My son is, but I still have my daughter there, and walking around with my kid on the Bitcoin conference is just putting one huge target on your back.

- Yes, yeah. - I'm not afraid for myself, but if I'm going somewhere, I'm taking Solex boy with me, and I just don't want to risk him in any case, any way. - No, of course, of course. And so I came up with the mini meetups.

So my hope is now to create all kinds of mini meetups within Europe with small groups of plebs, where you create actually a network of people that can trust each other. If I meet up with Zeno, for example, and he brings a bunch of people that he knows from different mini meetups, then I trust those people implicitly.

It's always still a risk if you're really paranoid, but at least you know the people around that. And because having it in a mini setup makes it all more accessible, plus you really have the time to meet with people, because if you have a group bigger than, let's say, 15 people, it just becomes very impersonal, I think.

- I agree. I've not done many meetups for similar reasons, very privacy conscious. The bigger ones, I think, would be difficult to really have the connections, but the best connections that I have are generally one-on-one or two or three people.

And then you get the chance to really get to know people, to really bounce ideas off each other and to connect. The whole don't trust verify thing is okay to a point, but there does come a point where you must build some trust in certain individuals, unless you want to stay behind a keyboard, behind tour, behind all these layers forever.

- And there is something nice about that personal meeting, and it's very enjoyable, but there's always that trade-off and that risk. So I like that idea, I like these small meet-up groups.

So is this something you've now implemented? - We are working on that. So, Solex Boyami, we're organizing at least an event here, close to home. I am organizing a Discord group, which is very slowly growing, because we prefer to invite people person by person, rather than just putting out a big advert.

People just come on and drop in. Yeah, kind of paranoid, maybe, but it makes it very slow growing, but who cares? For our mini meet-up, we're gonna do, in the middle of nowhere, there is a camping close by, next to, I cannot even call it a lake, it's like a big puddle, but you can at least paddle water.

That's completely murky water, but that makes it good, it's not too much people there. Make sure to bring your cold card with you. (laughing) - It's, yeah, the plan is to at least do that one.

So that's on the Discord group, and we actually, with a few people, we have already a mini telegram group, which is closed completely off. We're not inviting other people, we're just having too much fun, but I really, really hope that all of those people come there.

And if they all come down for me, that the mini event is already a success. And the Discord group is then also, because I won't be able to make it everywhere in Europe, due to my work and family.

I hope to help other people create their own mini meet-ups, pass them on lessons learned, things they have to take care of. And even if I'm not physically that I can help them out from remote to have their mini meet-up set up.

And in the future, it would be cool to have like, a string of mini meet-ups where people with a lot of time can just do a road trip from mini meet-up to mini meet-up to be conference and back to home.

- That's cool. Yeah, I love that idea. I think there will be a lot of people who do have a lot more time on their hands. And a lot of people who are moving more towards that nomadic lifestyle so long as we can somehow get away from this border closing nonsense that's going on.

And I do think that that's kind of the trend, that is certainly the trend that was happening. And as you see your time increase, like the amount of time you have to spend working decrease, it would be amazing to do that.

And amazing to spend time with Bitcoins. 'Cause you always learn something, that's what I've found is that there's so many rabbit holes and they all go so deep that it's nice to meet people from different areas within Bitcoin.

You know, the people who are really, really privacy conscious or the people who are really into like design or memes or whatever route you want to take. There are people who are the best in the world at what they're doing and they're only generally happy to help you and to discuss things with you.

So there's so much to be learned from other Bitcoin as they're doing a trip like that would be a million times better than any university degree. - It's so incredible how many bright people we have in the Bitcoin sphere.

It's a, I always thought I was very, no, I didn't always think I'm very smart, but I always think in at my job at least that I am like one of the smarter people because people tend to do such stupid things.

I'm not saying technically the smartest like in databases and stuff like that, not but in company life people seem to enjoy solving the same problems over and over the same way and expecting a different outcome.

And there you come in the Bitcoin sphere and like Zeno, he just seems to pull out new inventions out of his ass, like he's, I'm just a very big fan of what all the things he's doing. For example, one of the mini projects I'm doing now is brings a fire, we call it.

So I'm playing around a lot with, or I was especially playing around a lot with lightning and we were talking in our mini group about lightning and talked about the idea that the problem with lightning is you have to create balanced channels ideally that the balance is on both sides of the channel.

So you can do transfers back and forth or route for people paying payments coming in and coming out. And so I had the idea, ideally you look for a few notes that want to open a channel. And if you have from A to Z, let's say, there's a lot of people, but A opens the channel to B, B to C, et cetera.

And each time pay just half forward and in the end, the Z note connects to A and also pushes off. So you get your own payment back in another channel. So you open two channels for the price of one.

So we're working on that concept and he's just 500 steps further of automating everything, automating everything. And he's a genius, he's just a genius. I cannot put it differently. - It's nice to spend time with people like that.

- Oh, it's very refreshing. - Yeah, yeah. And the thing is, you say, like, oh man, you're doing so much cool stuff. And the only things they say back is, yeah, but you're doing other cool stuff.

And that's what I really love. It's like, at least in the mini group that I'm talking about, it's just all love between Bitcoiners. - There's a lot of love in this community. And it is refreshing.

It is, there's no more generally within the people I get to speak to is that there's no real arrogance. There is, like you say, geniuses all around. I spend a lot of time speaking to people and I feel like the dumbest fucker on Bitcoin Twitter because there's just so many, so many brilliant minds.

But yeah, it's special. And I think what really ties it all together and allows this sort of friendly, excited atmosphere is that we all have a common goal. And we all are happy to help each other and no one's sort of being selfish because we want freedom.

We want a better world for our children. We want to make changes and take power away from people who should never have it. They should never, ever have the power that they have. And it's such a nice thing to be involved in because you really see the light at the end of the tunnel being around these people.

It feels as though I can think of an idea and say, wow, imagine if this could happen. Wow, imagine if this bit of software was released. Wow, imagine if this could be done. And then it's done, it's done.

Like there are people working on this kind of stuff all the time and it's almost, you can see these things unraveling in front of your eyes because the community's still so small and so passionate. - Exactly.

Which is, I mean, I don't want to dox your background or what you're doing, but it sounds like it might be technical to some degree. Tell me to, you know, not dox you, but is it along those lines?

- Oh, yes and no. From a degree, I'm more in healthcare situation, but then I did some support and now I'm doing online learning and it's all firetised. I would like to go back to support and know it was, I was there the least technical guy in support, but when I say firetised,

I mean, everything in support is being measured in KPI, how long is the case open? How long does it stay at your side? Instead of seeing support as a customer relationship manager because it is such an opportunity for people to appreciate or to see that a company is not only looking for your money,

but they really want to help you further. If you build a software and you're really passionate about it and that's what you see in the Bitcoin world, is all those guys that come on the podcast, they want to change the world and they're passionate about what they built and they want to help people further as well with whatever they made.

In a fiat world, it's like, yeah, support, we have to do it, but let's keep the costs down and don't spend too much time on the cases, just make sure it gets closed. If a restart works, good, you can close the case and the next one is there.

Whereas when I left, I heard a colleague say that the company did not have any issues with me leaving, they never had any problems, but all customers were unhappy that I was gone. (laughs) Because I was not a guy who solved all of the problems, but I was the guy who took a problem and went further with it until the solution was there.

And yeah, I think that's missing in the fiat world, I think. - The personal touch? - Not necessarily the personal touch, you can be very personal without giving any solutions. - True, yeah, that's true.

- The reasoning of if you offer a service or a product and it helps your customer, your building a customer relationship, and that is what you should go for. Selling a service should not be gained on profit, but building a relationship that customer keeps coming back for more.

It's a trust, it's trust that's actually, but Bitcoin is about also. Bitcoin is a trustless system, but creates trust between people. - And it's that low time preference as well. - Yeah. - The way that these big companies are measuring things is by the quarter or at most by a year or so,

and everything is measured and it has to go into a system and it has to be compliant and blah, blah, blah. And it just doesn't actually work in the real world. It's just a good way to tick boxes and keep people at the top happy, but it generally doesn't work for the people using the product or service,

and it doesn't really work for the people who are doing the job. And that's another thing that I like within this community. It's like people want to build something that's great and they'll put in the time to do it, they'll put in the time to help people use it, and they're not looking at it as like,

right, how can I just knock out a product or service, make as much money as I can, and then move on to the next thing? It's actually reputation that matters. I mean, obviously you have the odd asshole who's going to take advantage of people and they ruin their reputation, and that's fine, and then they can move on.

But for most people, I feel who are really at the core of this, they want to do this for the rest of their life. Like, I can say that for myself. I never, I cannot imagine ever working in another, I guess you call it industry, I can't imagine it.

Nothing else excites me like this. So why would you ever ruin your reputation? Even if money was your goal, you still wouldn't do it. And more than that, this is about actually changing the world.

So the money side and all of that side is actually really of little importance compared to that. So people care, and then you get a better service, you get a better product, and you get a better community, and that just naturally happens without really any planning.

It just seems to like evolve this thing without really too much planning, it just works. - Exactly, as you said, it's all growing so organically. And it's just, yeah, you can feel people are looking for such connections between other people, and yeah, I found it within Bitcoin.

Not saying, because we were saying before that Bitcoiners are very nice. Within the Bitcoin atmosphere, you have very big egos that are pumping into each other like crazy. But when push comes to shove, and anybody is attacking Bitcoin in general, then you know those big egos just turn around

and just stand shoulder to shoulder and go for it. And that's the beauty of it. It's not all utopia, we're all peace and harmony. No, fuck, it's bumping heads, but when it matters, they're there.

- Common goal. How was it that you found this? Like how was your entry into this space? Were you already searching? Were you already thinking, I don't feel right in the way things are moving in the world.

And I'm looking for an alternative. Were you a gold bug? - I was a full on shit coiner. (laughing) I was, I came to a lovely honesty. - Bitcoin as, oh yeah, that's making a lot of money. I'm gonna just buy a little bit to see how it works.

I'm gonna trade. Oh, this one is going up, oh, this is better. And I totally fucked it up. And then it was reading Bitcoin standard, Saffidian, that made me realize, okay, this is actually better.

And then, like I said, the sales ledger really threw it all completely. Yeah, I was a Bitcoin before sales ledger, but sales ledger made me a plug. Yeah, I was politically more lefty, but this also, I never voted really for a left party, but I was always looking for, how do you say it,

not social justice, because the social justice warrior is wrong, but a correct way of living in the world, but in my own space. So for example, I moved to another country, so I'm not living in my home country anymore, but I bought there a cabin.

So I was always looking already for investments that didn't make my savings disappear, because by the time that we one year further, and I saved a lot, that savings were not worth a lot anymore.

So I bought a cheap house, a cabin, and I had a friend of a friend who was actually a French SDF homeless guy, I just want to miss the fix that is in French. And he stayed at my cabin a year for free.

And now still, I have this cabin, and I still have the same logic. There is a friend of mine living there for free, not paying any rent, he's paying my electricity bills and everything there, but I know he works, he's just working in an area that there is not much money to be made.

And yeah, I think that was always my vision and will be always my vision. And that's the strength of Bitcoin as well as a store of value is that it rewards people who are willing to work.

And that might be a developer who's making a great product or a gardener who's just doing his grinding a plumber, really underrated now all the time. We want all high education jobs and stuff, but without a plumber, you're not gonna take, you're gonna take a smelly crap instead of a well-smelling one.

Or yeah, the guys from Untapped Growth, for example, who are doing the cattle thing there and just acquire those guys like crazy, this. Yeah, just whatever work you do, you're able to build your stack, however you want.

It's not about the knowledge, not about the political friends or strings you can pull. It's about what you do. And yeah, it doesn't come cleaner than that, I think. - I think there's a lot of people who are just pulling it back to that sort of left versus right thinking and all that kind of stuff.

I think people from both sides come in, a lot of well-meaning people who want to see and do good. They sit on the left because they think, okay, well, this seems as though this is gonna help more people.

And the good thing is once they can understand Bitcoin, you can do more good yourself than just voting. You know, voting really does nothing, but having the ability, like you're saying, to have like a cabin and be able to look after someone and say, look, you can use this.

Firstly, it feels great to be able to help people in that way. And secondly, it's real change. And you can do that with having a good store of wealth, like a good store of value. And I think more and more good is gonna come from people within the space who become wealthy from this.

Wealthy, time-wise, wealthy financially, and they can do great things with it. And this redistribution of wealth from the hands of few and those hands seems all they want is more power and to restrict movement and all joy and creativity from this world.

And it's going into the hands of people who are firstly incredibly bright and more often than not. And you said it earlier, you know, that some of them have egos, some butt heads. They could be quite abrasive.

But generally I see people wanna do good. And it makes me excited to see that this wealth is gonna go to those people. I can't think of a better group of people to control that wealth, which is exciting.

- I'm really smiling because this really resonates with what I was saying before in our private telegram group. - The most important lesson that Bitcoin brings the world and you can hear it in most of the podcasts.

You listen, if you listen deep enough, it's the whisper, responsibility is yours. Change your personal space for the better of the world. So a lot of Bitcoiners are just like the guy from Zeus world when I was listening to him even on your podcast.

I really could feel like he's trying to change his personal space and the people around, do things for the people around him. And by doing that, he's making a beautiful product and just building for himself something nice and automatically cleats, it spreads out.

It's like a wave spreading out. And as long as you try to do the best for your own environment and set it very unpolite in the group as well, if you take care of yourself, it will be good for the world as well because if it has consequences, you won't crap in your own kitchen.

(both laughing) You know, if you want to build a future that's for your children, you don't want to pollute automatically. It's not that people are evil. And I think I'm way too optimistic about the world maybe, but I think the problem with the world is not a problem.

I think everybody wants to be too good, even those that we're trying to, or that we demonize at this moment. They started off trying to do good, but the real devil in the world is the human tendency to deceive ourselves.

And the first victim is yourself. So a lot of people try to, or are tempted to think that they're doing good for the world by putting in rules and everything for other people, but that's not how it works.

Everybody has to be able to decide for themselves. - Hmm. Yes, I agree. I think most people are good. - Yeah. - And most people who fight with each other are fighting about things that really don't matter, and they've been deceived generally by media.

They have more in common than they think, and they fight because they're confused, and they fight because they're angry, and stressed, and frustrated, and tired, and they're manipulated into fighting because it is much easier to control people when you divide them.

When people are together and they have a common goal, they're very, very hard to defeat. You mentioned Evan earlier. I mean, people like that give me a huge amount of hope because I can have a conversation with him.

I can see right this guy is a very, very good person. He wants what's right, and he's also building an incredible product, and this sort of group of people who is marching towards a common goal together is, in my opinion, is undefeatable.

It really feels that way. And I do think, although most people want good, I do believe there is a small group of people, and this sounds quite conspiracy-theorious, but there is a small group of people who are evil beyond what you can imagine.

I don't think they're evil. I just think they're the victim of their own deceit. The first thing those guys do, or those people do, is the seeping themselves that are doing it for the better good, and the better good does always the worst sentence you can hear in history, the better good.

That's when the shit starts hitting the fan, and it should be a alarm bells ringing, and because even if Bitcoin does not care who is holding the Bitcoin, it can be a racist, it can be a totalitarian person thinking, okay, I'm gonna rule the world, that is not what Bitcoin is gonna solve.

But what Bitcoin is solving is that it does not give those people a limitless power. - Yes. - If somebody is willing now to stack a lot, let's say Saylor goes crazy and thinks he's the emperor of the world, he can cause a lot of trouble because he will have a stack, not a lot of people can dream even about that,

but if he's gonna spend it, he's gonna be spent, and it's gonna be gone at that moment. - Yes. - So it holds people responsible to their actions, and if you have a lot, great for you. I hope you do good with that.

If you have a small stack, at least you are experiencing what it can mean for you, and then I think it's very important to make the distinction between shit coiners, Bitcoiners, and people who hold Bitcoin, because not everybody who has Bitcoin is a Bitcoiner, and not everybody who holds shit coins is a shit coiner.

And I'm a very non-boxic person in that. - No, that's very true. What you've really pinpointed there is the accountability for your actions, and that the people, let's say at the top of the pyramid, the people who make some of the decisions that are for in their eyes, the greater good,

and cause a lot of pain and suffering for other people and take a lot of freedom away, it comes to that point where, even if, like you're saying, if they have stacked, if they spend it, getting it back is very, very hard, if not impossible.

- And we make it harder. - Yes. - And that's our responsibility. - You don't have to stack like crazy. You don't have to have 6.15, or what is the number with your stack. But if your stack sets, those are sets that evil people, let's call them then, cannot have.

So that's where we have the powers as people. - It's power beyond what I think most people can understand. The fact that right now they can just print, they can create this value by actually giving no value is theft of time.

It's theft of life. It's a power that nobody should have. And what we're doing as plebs and why I fucking love plebs is they're gone, nah, nope, not allowing it. No matter how late you're saying it, how small their stack is, fuck off.

You're never having my sats. You're never having that power. And that's never been imaginable ever in history. - It's life changing. - Yeah, it's world changing. It's very, very exciting.

It's what keeps, I think, that hope in our mind. I look around and I see the hardest bastards I've ever met in my life. And people say, oh, I'm never fucking selling it. I'm never gonna sell it.

Some of them are talking shit. Some of them will. But I know from personal experience from people that I've met and I can feel it and I can see it in their eyes. When they tell me, I am never selling.

I believe it, because they have families and they know what's coming otherwise. - Yeah, personally as well, I've told it to, well, I'm gone, actually. I have a four-way strategy I thought I think I said.

One is, or two of the four is, for each of my children, that's the whole stack. It's called storage. My lifetime, it's not gonna see daylight. Then there is the spend stack. I will sell Bitcoin or sats in the form of buying stickers, buying the Citadel 21 magazine, buying stuff that I feel that builders are producing

that has worked in this world. I spent sats on my avatar, because Dimo's doing such a great job and it came to reflect everything and more that I had envisioned in that. And my avatar is just a small part of the whole picture that Dim drew, but that the whole picture is really very valuable to me because it's such a personal depiction

of the relationship between me and my son, in Frog Style. And then the last part is just playing around with lighting because that will be the future, I think, for liquid and lightning. Liquid for big companies.

I'm never gonna be a big guy in any world, but in lightning, I think that might be the future. So I'm being a bit irresponsible there or reckless there. I know, but I'm not planning to spend sats.

So the two stacks of my children are safe. All the rest I have, I can play around with and do irresponsible things with. My son has his own note with my sats on it, but he has his note and he is learning to open channels, close channels, manage channels.

And I'm a completely idiot on lightning. A good tip, if you want to know more about lightning, I would say, check out Justin for what he's doing at a sats based note, maybe on Twitter so much, but Caskook here, it's a Dutch guy, what he's created, the cheese robot, a really awesome guy, sorry to hijack the podcast too.

- Keep those guys shut out. - No, no, no, no. - Plug them and also send me, 'cause I'll be honest, I don't know either of them. Send me the links, I'll put them in the show notes. Anyone who's doing something cool, we want to promote, so we'll show them that.

- We'll do, we'll do. So I'm playing around with the lightning there, like the rings of fire is just psychological experiment or a logical experiment. I'm not a tech guy in a very deep sense, but I like to explore, hypothesis, like with my son, but then also on the lightning network, for example.

I also, I use those sats to play around and to see how that works. So in a future where sats is standard, that my son or my kids know or I can teach them what is never being taught in school, how best to manage a note and take care of your own sats that they're using.

- Yeah, the lightning stuff, let's just go down this route for, if you've got a few minutes. - Oh man, I have all evening if you want them. My bottle is half way, so I might be a bit, (laughing) I'm a bit looser than the normal probably.

- Perfect, that's perfect. No, I just, I really think that that would be an interesting route to go down. Lightning is something that I've messed around with a little bit less than I'd like to probably admit.

I run a few nodes, generally unsuccessfully, generally have to constantly mess around with them. I've got a raspy blitz that I'm using at the moment and I've had some help from self-banked and some other people who sort of helping me out with it.

But I'm not really at a stage where I'm comfortable and competent enough to use it all the time. A lot of it is just a time-based thing. So can you talk to me about, 'cause clearly lightning is something that you have a real interest in.

You're talking to me about this ring of fire that you guys are involved in. So can you tell me, what are you thinking about lightning? Why are you thinking this is the future? What are you running and what is lightning to you?

- So here we have two nodes. One for me, one for my son. And if you're really looking into exploring lightning, I would invite you to the rings of fire. You can always contact me or Zeno.

Zeno is the guy from the Bitcoin Sun, for example, the bot on Twitter and Citadel game. So he's the technical guy, I would say, from that group. Wizard of Oz is also in rings of fire doing great job explaining the basics.

- This is cool. - So they're all gold. Everybody involved there. So feel free to join other people as well. The goal with the rings of fire is especially for those newbies. I'm a parmanoupe, by the way, on lightning as well.

But to have at least some kind of a trust relationship, because the problem I had with lightning was I did all in experimenting. I learned a lot from just a Frank Cascocia that I just mentioned.

But I lost such with opening channels to people. And then I had a problem with my node. And suddenly they just forced close the channel. And when you open a channel, you're the guy also who pays the closing costs as well.

- I've lost a lot as well, which is why it's put me off a little bit. - Yeah, and that's why we just did that ring of fire where we create a ring, like really connecting a group of people.

We just did one with 10 people together. And one didn't even have his node up. Stack more, I'm looking at you. But we do not really care. We just have already a form of trust between us because we know each other already in that first ring.

But in the second ring, we will do a smaller amount of different people. And if you cheat, you're just gonna be bashed like hell. But on the other hand, if you're honest and something goes wrong, there are so many people with a lot more technical skills than I have or just looking into how to solve things,

how to create new things and how to help things to get things further. The main idea is learning from each other, creating a ring of trust, like I said, because if, for example, my node falls out and you have problems with your channel backup because there's so many risks in lighting.

But if you have a channel backup and it doesn't go well, you can be punished if you try to publish a state that's not recognized by the rest and then something like that. Well, in this group, I do not have any doubt that I will receive my amount of my stats back.

Another part of the ring is also, you have fees on your channels that other people can route over your channel. If you're not directly connected, you have to hop over different lighting nodes.

And for that, you can ask a fixed fee and a variable fee. So within the ring, we try to keep it as low as possible. So we create a big ring, the lighting network, where that it becomes like a highway, very cheap to go very fast from one end to the other.

- So it gives you all really good connectivity as well. - Without gaining anything, because I only lose such width with this, but I consider this learning money and I just think it's the future.

So I consider those as investment for the stats that I have on cold storage for my kids. The better the lighting network works in real life, the more those stats are gonna be worth in this future.

- Absolutely true. And so what are you using? Are you an unbridled guy? Are you using a blitz or...? - I don't have any preference. I just have a minute. - Have a minute. - Because that works for me.

I had Blitz ordered, but I had bad luck with the hardware. That was not recognizing the SSD. So I should look it up again. It's a friend of mine. I might spin that one up again. - A lot of people are really raving about Umbral.

I run so many nodes, but I have no fucking idea what I'm doing. I just wanna try everything. So I'm not the only one I haven't tried. I hear some good things and I rise by Blitz is great, but I think, I mean, I got it set up.

I got it working. I've opened a channel. I've sent a couple of payments. It's fine, but it was not the easiest thing. But I think I'd like to try one of these Umbral things too. 'Cause I wanna get some people involved and play around a bit more.

- But I heard this Umbral is the easiest. Mine nodes in between, the Blitz is the most control. And if you're hardcore, you're just installing the LND and Bitcoin core on your own, whatever device.

But yeah, if lightning Umbral should be the most user-friendly, I guess, I see there are also a lot of positive news from that. But if you want more control, the Blitz might be better. And then for me, the in-between was ideal, the mine node.

I think any of the solutions has its ups and downs or benefits and disadvantages. - That's right. Yeah, there's no perfect thing. I think sometimes you have to have different nodes for different things.

Like I run a run and dojo for my whirlpool because I had a mine node and it was good for some other bits, but I could never get my whirlpool stuff working. It was just a absolute nightmare.

So I use my run and dojo for that and I have a mine node for linking to Spectre. And then I have a couple of other ones that I mess around with, but it would be nice to have maybe two. (laughs) It's a bit much having all these different things.

But the cool thing is you can repurpose them. - Yeah, yeah. - That's something that's quite nice that you can just say, okay, I wanna try something new, reflash it and off you go. - I would say, come and join the rings of fire.

We're looking for more people to join us. We try to open different rings. So we're looking now for one megasat ring and some people are looking for a bigger ring. And yeah, like I said, our goal is not really to gain any such with routing, for example.

Our game is especially to connect people who are not connected yet, which makes the value of your nodes better because some people sell liquidity via lightning pool, for example. And there you have the lightning and liquidity pool by Swiss nodes.

I think the group is, that was the first one. That's where I learned everything. So also cool those guys. But we are just looking out for the nubes who want to try to connect their first ring and connecting them to bigger rings and further and further.

More like a thought experiment and see what it brings. - Yeah, that's cool. - Yeah, and Zeno is also putting that on GitHub also. So if it all works out, we're just gonna share it out to other people that they can set up their own rings, not guaranteed that this is gonna be a success, but if it's successful,

it's just to improve the general lightning network. - Very cool. Yeah, I'll definitely give that a go. I do need to spend a bit more time and get into it because I also think that this is the future.

I'm not a particularly technical guy, but I can see where this could go. Bar any major issues that we can't see at the moment. I can see this being the future and it just unlocks all these possibilities that are so exciting.

And there's some of the abilities that really got me fired up in the first place. When I was first really wrapping my head around Bitcoin, some of the ideas around micro payments and the applications for these things and how you can build a completely separate economy completely away from the traditional system using this

is really exciting. And I think that obviously it's in its very early stages and you do have to be careful and a lot of it goes over my head, but that vision, it doesn't seem like it's a million miles away.

Like, what's your thoughts on it? You sound like you're definitely more technical than I am. (laughing) - That sounds only like that. (laughing) But so how are you looking at it? - I'm just gonna spin back to what you said before, what was that you have an idea and somebody else already built it.

I had exactly the same things. So I had the idea, wouldn't it be great to have streaming Bitcoin radio where you have three different possibilities or you have streaming podcasts constantly, or you have music, Bitcoiners making music, or you have both together, where you listen to a podcast and at the background you have music.

And you can just seamlessly switch between those 'cause when I'm working, I hate podcasts and I'm not working, I'm listening only audiobooks and podcasts. Ideally, you get paid or you pay streaming an amount of such per time.

I talked about that with, I don't know whom and they said, oh yeah, that's Fingshot. Fings, okay, great. Now I look into it and oh wow, really, they're doing great stuff there. (laughing) So yeah, one of my plans is also to connect to those guys.

But yeah, I think the future is still far ahead, but there are so many bright people out there that far ahead comes really close very fast. And all I'm trying to do for myself is trying to keep up the speed with it all.

I am not the technical wizard, I'm just trying to keep up the speed because there are such bright guys that have a few gears more than I have, seems. (laughing) - Yeah, well, keeping up with it is hard enough, I think.

- Oh man, even you guys, if you guys with all of your podcasts, you and Prince, you're spitting out. (laughing) It is, that's the incredible thing about Bitcoin as well. It's so much going on at the same time, it's just impossible to get it all covered.

- Yeah, the speed at which it moves, it is crazy. Literally a year ago, me and Prince were sat in my kitchen drinking a beer and saying this thing's gonna fucking blow up. Like this thing is crazy.

And he was saying, you know, do you think I should start a podcast? And then I was thinking about it and I was like, yeah man, go for it. Like you'd be fucking, you'd be awesome, like let's just go.

And you blink, a year is gone. And it's like, he's banging out amazing content. There's all new people joining in. There's so much unbelievable content out there. And so many incredible projects going on all the time.

You blink and you're gonna miss it. And I can't keep up. I'd love to do this completely full time, but I have to do other things to pay the bills. So, you know, it's not full full time. But I think even if it was full time, I couldn't keep up.

I think it is literally got to that stage now where it is impossible. And you mentioned, you know, Sphinx. I spoke to Paul, I don't know, maybe a couple of months ago. We didn't record. It was just, we had a chat for an hour, an hour and 10, just shooting the shit about lightning.

And that guy's a beast. That guy has a lot of stuff that's obviously going on in the background as well. And he's just one of hundreds of these just geniuses working on it. So that's what gives me the excitement about lightning.

I might not fully understand it. I might not be able to use it completely, you know, perfectly. But do you think that these ideas of micro payments, so for example, taking it to the extreme?

And we might be a little while off from this, but there was a particular video from Andreas Antonopoulos when I first got involved. And I know he's got a bit shit calling in. People will be like, oh, I don't mention him, but he was a great educator in my mind.

And he helped me a lot. So I will mention him. He did a video where he was talking about streaming money and micro payments. And he was discussing the idea of autonomous vehicles being able to communicate between one another to say, look, I need to get here fast.

I'll pay you micro payments so that you get the fuck out of the way so that I can get there quicker. And this money can be streamed and communicated to make transport more efficient, to pay your parking, to do all these sort of things that can be so much more fluid, to be able to jump into a vehicle,

and the insurance is done by the second, the tax is done by the second, whatever it is. Do you think that that is reasonable to say, we can do it in five years? Or is that me being technically inept and a dreamer?

- You should ask that a technical guy, but I am completely agreeing with the point or one step less. And the question you hear every time when you bring up taxes to the left is, is what about the roads?

And that's the first part. (laughing) No, but that's why not tax per per, why you're driving. That's why not, that's a perfect solution for that. So let's work on that or let the genius work on that, not me.

(laughing) And then back on top, I know it's being spit out by Bitcoin toxic Maxis. I'm a Maxis, but I'm not toxic. So like I said, it's not because you have shit coins that you're a shit coiner.

Some people are great traders and just want to have more sats by trading. I'm not one of them, I realized pretty soon. And on top, he did a book about Ethereum shit, I guess. But what I personally think is that he's not shit coining, he's just interested in the technology.

And he's writing a book or editing a book now about lightning, and I'm looking really forward to seeing it published. And he really goes down to the technical parts of it. So I could not care less that he wrote a book about Ethereum.

I don't care even about people holding Ethereum because in the end, I'm very libertarian in that. Everybody's free to hold whatever shit coin they want. For example, Ethereum might be the new world computer as they claim whatever.

I don't understand that, so I'm not interested. And even if it's a world computer, I wouldn't know how to evaluate that in money. So in Sats or in Fiat, however, it has no cap. I can give thousands reasons why I don't think it's valuable.

But if my neighbor thinks it's valuable, well, as long as my neighbor does not force me to accept his shit coin, he can hold whatever he wants. So I don't worry too much about that. And on top is just the guy who digs deep technically and I will never unfollow him unless he starts really promoting a shit coin.

And the only shit coin I do not accept, or how to say, if you hold BSP, then just go somewhere else because then you're... - Oh, I'm sorry, mate. I'll do you wanna wrap the call up then? - If you have, yes, yes.

(all laughing) - I'm joking, I'm joking. - Yeah, I suspect it. (all laughing) - But no, I like that way of thinking. I think that's a very... It's a very mature way of looking at the space, which I think some people lack.

And I get that we are the white blood cells. I get that we wanna attack the shit coin as I get all that. But there does come a point where, like you're saying, you have to take this libertarian mindset, which is do what you want.

Like, as long as it's not hurting me, do what you want. As long as it's not hurting the people I care about, do what you want. And some people need to touch the stove and get burned. - I was one of them.

- Yeah, and so was I. I mean, completely. I've fucked around with a load of shit coin and just lost a load of money, you know, learnt the hard way. And, you know, you get to this point where you're like, no, it just doesn't make any sense.

- But everybody who did burn their fingers, they are the hard soldiers. They're the guys who are not gonna, they're not the heroes you're gonna slay afterwards, because they were there already.

- Yeah, I'm gonna tell you a story, this very peragogical, irresponsible, but my daughter was playing in a bar top and she was reaching to the end of the tap that's coming from the hot water.

And I know it's really hot. And I saw her looking at it and I said, well, touch it. And she did. And she cried a lot, but it, yeah, of course it hurts. But I knew once she would touch it and I'm there to see and to be able to interact like she's grabbing it and she doesn't have the refracts to release or whatever.

Then I know for sure she won't touch it ever again. And now when I even come close to that tap and act as if I'm gonna touch it, she says, no, no Papa, watch out. - It's true, this experience is key.

And you do have to go through pain in life. You do have to experience that. And I like what you said as well about Andres is interested in the technology. And I believe that. I believe that he is somebody who is just fascinated by what's possible, what might be possible.

So like when I first fell down the rabbit hole, I quit my job, stopped painting, stopped doing basically anything other than listening to every podcast that I possibly could and watching every video he'd ever done.

And he did this sort of question and answer sessions. And I took up a job where I just drove like didn't delivery driving like shit on me, but it allowed me to 10 hours a day in a van listening.

And I learned so much from that guy. He allowed someone non-technical to understand what this technology could do. And he broke down a barrier. I don't think many people are as good as him at communicating this technology.

And I think that if you look at him as an overall of who's done more harm than good, he's done an incredible amount of good. Whatever he's interested on the side is fine by me. And I'll always be grateful for it because he communicated it in such a way that it lit a fire in me.

It just blew my mind to a point where I was like, do you know what? I don't care what other job I'm offered. I don't care what other opportunities are around me. I don't care about anything other than understanding this thing because this thing is so big that nothing else matters.

Yeah. I'd always thank that man for doing that. And then since then I've moved on. I'm sort of digging down different rabbit holes, but you need that, you need that entry. We need people who communicate to the non-technicals.

It's a real skill. Yeah, I fully agree. And I don't even listen so much to whatever he says. It's just I'm looking forward to what he's bringing on lightning and I'm not gonna, well, whomever wants to bash him, go ahead.

That's also your free choice. I'm not saying that the toxic Maxis should stop. No, go ahead. I think you're doing a great job. Just, I think it's also justified that are on top just blocks them as well.

Also, it's free, right? For, it's an expression as well. Yeah, and I have to say, coolers to you, man. Like if you gave up your job for digging in, that's what I don't dare to do. And I'm looking now really hard for finding a Bitcoin job because I am working now more than ever trying to juggle with family,

my fair job, and I'm doing all kinds of sidetracks, Bitcoin related. And the stupid thing is Bitcoin got me so excited that whatever I do in the Bitcoin atmosphere, I do for free. Like on top growth offered sets for making a meme.

I just dropped the sets. I'm just gonna do it for free because I love what you're doing. And I gave that to my son as well because he got the offer. Damn, I forgot his name, but he's a friend of Wizard of Oz.

He said, "Yeah, just from here Bitcoin address, "I'm gonna give you some sets." And Sol Expo also said, "No, that's okay. "It's good, it's good." I thank you for your compliment, but I don't need free sets.

I want to work for it. And that's the Bitcoin spirit, I think. Nothing comes for free. It can even hassle when there's contests for a retweet earning sets. I will join, I don't care. But yeah, it's nice of people willing to donate, but it's not that I'm in financial trouble.

I do my Euro DCA or yeah, ECA then. And that's what is enough for me. And when I really work my daytime, I will charge sets or I will earn sets. But in between making a meme or making a graphic or doing something or working for the voice paper, for example, seeing that stuff, those creations in the wild world

is the payment on its own. - Yeah, it really is. I would advise anyone who is listening to this and going, "Oh, Max, that's really cool. "You left your job, that's really brave." It wasn't brave, it was fucking stupid.

(laughing) In some ways I very much regret it 'cause I could have stacked much more sets, a lot, lot, lot more sets 'cause I earn fuck all now. But I did it because I'm a weird person who I physically couldn't do anything anymore because it was two, it completely grabbed me to a point,

and also in a point in my life where I was not very well. I was not mentally very well at all. And it gave me hope. - That's modern as a saddle. - Yes, it was not good, and this gave me some hope, and I just thought, fuck it, I just, no, I'm not doing it anymore.

But I wouldn't advise people who are relatively happy in a job, and they're coping okay, and they're thinking, okay, now I've got my head around this and I wanna stack sets, you know? - No, no, go ahead, sorry.

- No, I was gonna say, really, really think twice before you do that, because those sets are valuable, they're gonna allow you time in the future, and if you're happy enough, stay for as long as you can and just convert that shitty fear to sets.

If you're on the extreme where you're saying, I can't cope anymore, I just cannot cope, and I need some hope, then study Bitcoin and for go with those sets, but I wouldn't advise it to most people.

I completely second that, for me, myself, I'm completely unhappy with what, not with what I'm doing, but with the politics within the company, how they see it. It's not that they're wrong, it's just that I have completely different vision of what we're doing, and I keep on working, and I'm working more than before,

because after I finished my day job and my lunch break, for example, I was making the meme for an untapped growth, I'm working more than before, but I found the inspiration within Bitcoin, so I'm doing my fiat shit shop, and I am able to do it, because I can find my, how to say that, I can find passion, my calling,

within the things I do after work, so I'm juggling family, a fear job, and then doing some Bitcoin shit, doing that Bitcoin shit is taking a lot of time, but it gives the satisfaction I'm lacking in my day job, and that keeps me going, because I've, since this cost shit situation, I always had already manic depressive tendencies,

like one day I'm extremely happy, the other day I'm completely depressed, whatever the situation is, in the most beautiful weather, I can be depressed, and in a shitty weather, when I find the drive, I'm just happy, but with the cost shit, I had two episodes of a really deep, dark, completely not seeing it anymore,

how to go further, and Bitcoin has put me out of that. One was sweetoshi, actually, shout out to sweetoshi, I was not reacting on Twitter anymore, not doing anything on Twitter anymore, and then a very simple message came, "Hey, man, I don't see online anymore, everything okay."

And that, like, I have real-life friends that didn't care so much about me, like sweetoshi did at that moment, and that was, that put me through the first time, and the second time was actually just doing Bitcoin or stuff, like the voice paper I was at that moment, just before the voice paper, I was just at my ends at work,

and I did the voice paper extra, and just seeing all that inspirational stuff coming in from Bitcoin is just, yeah, it put me through, so I thank the 159 people who participated, you included, thank you very much for participating, you put me through out of a depression there, and yeah, now I'm glad.

Yeah, I'm keeping working a lot, extras, yeah, it gave me purpose in life. Now, Solax Boy also is one of those factors that keeps pulling me through everything, every shit, and yeah, just very proud.

- It's great to hear, and it's not an uncommon theme in Bitcoin that people have suffered from depression, they've suffered from serious issues, and that they see this hope, and that is very, very nice to hear, that it allows either through the community, like you're saying, sweet Toshi, just reaching out to you with a simple message

to someone who really cares, and allowing you to have this hope, and it's something very special for all the, yeah, for all the slight regret that I have from leaving a pretty well-paid job to do what I'm doing, I am a very different person, and for somebody who didn't want to be around anymore, I now am so far from that, and so excited,

and so proud to be part of this community, and just fucking hyped about what everyone's doing, that I jump out of bed in the morning. You know, still the odd day where I'm a little bit lower, a little bit like a fucking stressed about all this COVID bullshit, and all the authoritarian nightmare shit that's going on around me,

but I then think, do you know what? I've got a group of people who are fucking bright, and incredible, that have my back, and I have theirs, and that gets me through it, and that's something very special, so I'm glad it's done the same for you.

- And that's what shit corners don't understand, shit corners and no corners. Scarcity and all the things about Bitcoin, okay great, the technology, you can write better code maybe than Satoshi ever did, but what really makes Bitcoin Bitcoin is the people.

It's the history that Bitcoin went through. There was a good name for that, the part of the penalty, or the... - I don't know the name again. - I can't understand this way. Yeah, it's something like that.

That the history that Bitcoin went through, that made Bitcoin Bitcoin is the real value behind Bitcoin. You can make a new hard-capped cryptocurrency, but it won't have the general growth that Bitcoin had.

It won't have the same Bitcoin community. It's gonna just attract leeches and people who think, "Okay, this is gonna be the new goldmine." I have never seen more altruistic people than Bitcoiners, although everybody's shouting for a number go up.

People spending time making their own little circle of influence, a better place, because that builds a better world and that's just inspiring. I'm just glad to be part of it. Even though I make very small ripples, I'm making my ripples in the world.

Yeah, that is something special. And look, I think that's probably a good place to close out. It's a positive message. And yeah, man, this has been incredible. It's been one of my favourites.

I've really just feel like this is a nice connection with someone I've never met. I've seen an avatar that has been created by an amazing artist. I've seen some tweets and we've never met, but it's been an incredible conversation.

I feel very privileged to have it and I feel very excited to join with this ring of fire and to see what you're doing. I think that anyone who's listened to this and seen what you have introduced your son to and that the connection there and this sort of family message is something

to really inspire people and that someone should aspire to. So thank you for taking the time to chat to me. Thank you for coming on and I'm really pleased that this was your first podcast and the first time that you've really done a one-on-one and I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

Well, thanks very much for having me and thank you for coping with my rants here. I've been rambling along and yeah, when the passion gets high, I just keep on rambling. So even forcing God myself once in a while, just do not have a monologue.

Thank you very much. It was for me also really great. My bottle is almost empty as well, so... Awesome, all right, we'll hopefully meet in person at some point with one of these meet-ups.

Thanks again, I really appreciate it. Thank you very much and I will send you links for the rings of fire and discord group of minimitups. Awesome, all right, take care. Have a great evening, man.

Bye bye.