EP77 Bitcoin podcast with @BitcoinQ_A

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

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Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back, mate. Nice to have our third episode of, "Could we ever name it?" I actually can't remember. We had a couple of options floating around. Yeah, we had a couple of suggestions, but I don't think we've had anything set in stone just yet.

So, number three of the unnamed podcast. [Laughs] Kind of like that, actually. Yeah, nice to chat to you again, mate. We've been off air rambling on for a while now, but I'm very much looking forward to diving in again, and to find out what you have been sniffing out, what's happening in Bitcoin, what's happening on this Bitcoiner guide

and Bitcoin monthly. So, how do we want to do this? Do you want to go through the updates first? Yeah, to be honest, that's the main bulk of this month's updates is kind of a software firm where updates there's not much in the way of education or notable article.

It's mainly sort of the fast-paced software race is on. Yeah, so I suppose we'll start rattling through them, shall we? Yeah, perfect. Cool. All right. First one, one of the fan favorites, Blue Wallet.

These guys seem to roll out updates once a week at the moment, they're rattling through. Most recent update for the guys at Blue Wallet, user interface updates just that you can change the colors of the cards of each wallet.

They also enabled offline signing, which is a good, nice little feature where you could say you have, rather than shelling out for the hardware wallet, you could have a phone that you keep offline that's able to sign your transactions for you.

So you could have one device dedicated to just storing some Bitcoin, and then you could have your, say, normal phone that you use to broadcast the transactions from. Is that like a kind of, like, PSBT kind of idea?

So you'd create the transaction and then it's not signed until it goes to the other device? Yeah, I think the way that they're doing it is through QR code. So yeah, yeah, like, say you have one offline device and you'll have your main, your other device, which is connected to the internet, which doesn't have

the keys on it, it would be used. You know, the hot device, if you like, is the one that is internet connected and is used to broadcast. That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. Yeah, good little optionality, you know, rather than hardware, well, it seems always the fan favorite and it's kind of the

option that's drummed into everybody from from day one when they come into the space. But it's nice to see some other options like that coming out from the mobile wallet providers, and especially, you know, the gazeple wallet, the user interface that they've got there's really sort of simple and user friendly.

So yeah, nice little feature. They've also added, basically, the Gush got a scan function, which uses, obviously, the camera on your phone, which allows you to import wallets just by scanning QR code.

So you might say have a paper backup or something like that that's the producer QR code. And rather than having to, I don't know about you, but I hate typing in seed words. You know, if you've got a 24-word seed, it's a pain in the ass to type in that seed.

Well, some wallet backups actually produce a QR code, which blew up in our scan and import in a couple of seconds. Yeah, it's just so much quicker and easier. When I'm doing anything like that with seed words, I'll check it 'cause I'm so fucking bad at spelling and reading and basically everything, actually.

But I do it and I'll like check it so many times that I'll sit there for like half an hour just to fuck around with 24 words. So doing something like that would be, yeah, way, way easier.

- Yeah, little steps in terms of UX improvements, week in, week out, yeah, becoming a quite a bit of a powerhouse wallet really, probably wallet a great old rounder. Next one, one that you might be interested in, riffing on here, Max.

Breeze wallet, their latest update has introduced integrated podcast streaming, which on the surface of it doesn't seem that groundbreaking. The sort of cool piece here is that they've taken the lead from the guys at Sphinx.

You know, you can subscribe to podcasts within the app and also support the content producers by streaming saps by the second or by the minute, you know, to support the content producers.

So question for me is when we're gonna see you on Breeze, Max. - I'm not sure. I really likes Sphinx. I struggle to keep up with all the different apps. I'll give it a go. I definitely think that it's gonna be the way that things go in the future, the whole advertising model hopefully ends at some point, you know, it's okay.

But I think you could just do more with it. Like you can have better listener base for people who tune in every week are gonna use those kind of apps and there's lots more you can do with it.

Like in terms of, you know, if I wanted people to like write show notes or do naming of shows, there could be maybe like incentive models built in with these kinds of things going forward.

But I don't know whether we're quite there yet. You've used Sphinx a bit more than I have 'cause I can't get in at the moment. But I really love that platform. Like I think that's gonna be massive but I'll be honest, I haven't used any other competitors yet.

- Yeah, I think there's Sphinx to me. I mean, you know, it's absolutely sort of alpha software. It's expectedly quite glitchy.

- I think it definitely opens up new use cases and the fact that you can stream money is obviously, you know, we've never had that before. The world has never seen that before. And I think that's gonna open up quite a few new industries that we've not seen before.

I think the bit around the podcasting being linked to it, I think it's got to do something differently to draw people in away from their standard podcasting apps. And you know, that could literally just be as simple as removing the ads because-- - I'll be open and honest and say that I haven't listened

to an advert on any podcast for as long as I can remember. It's just like the standard thing. It's just like the standard thing that I do is it. I just skip forward 30 seconds until I can hear the host voice not talking about the latest thing on the market.

So, and I would happily pay for that privilege to not have to do that. And if that means I'm directly supporting the content provider, then that's only a good thing for me. - Do you know if Breeze are sort of integrating the chats and things like that into it as well?

Or is it more just like a media player where it streams? Because I think that for me is where it really changes things. That's where I think Sphinx have been very clever, creating these tribes and that people can send these bonuses.

You know, if they hear something they particularly like, you get 100 sat so you get something sent to you and people can message you. The fact that it's more interactive is really nice because the only other place you kind of see something interactive like that is like YouTube, but I refuse to go on YouTube

and do any live streaming or anything like that. So, I think that model works really well. If it's within an application which is using lightning and it's encrypted, I'm all for it. It feels a little bit less shit than doing it on YouTube.

Like it just, everything we're trying to do in this space is to get away from these big tech giants and these data collection services and all the privacy concerns that are around it. So, if someone can nail it in an app that's on lightning, eventually that thing's going to absolutely fly.

- Yeah, it's like say it's opening the doors. I tell you one thing that's popped into my head that I think it's kind of done this same sort of rabbit hole is the fact that you, I don't know how, you say you don't go on YouTube much, but if you've ever seen when people are doing live streams and they get like super chats

where it's basically just like somebody sending them some money, obviously lightning and this sort of setup but enables that what I appear to be a level, doesn't it? And I think that's going to be a big one in terms of doing live streams and just being able to stream that instantly with no middleman, you know, that's the key,

isn't it, no middleman, zero ability to be the platform if it's running on a peer to peer, especially if it's connected to your own node, you know, I'm just shit talking to him. I'm sure we're quite away from that being of the same sort of quality of sort of YouTube live streams, but you know, definitely promising.

- Yeah, definitely. I'll have to check out Breeze. I'll be honest, I've never used it. So I haven't, I'm not familiar at all, but if anyone's listening to this and they have used it and recommend it, then give me a shout and I'll try it.

- Cool. All right. Next we've got a cold card, new firmware version four, couple of nifty little features in here. They now allow when you import your own seed words, if you choose to do that, cold card will suggest the checksum at the end of the seed, which is basically that is the sort of the 24th word.

What that's basically designed to do is that calculate that the rest of the seed words are correct. It's basically just like, I believe it's just like a multiplication that checks that all of the other seed words are correct basically.

So if you were to import a seed further down the line and you swap number eight and word number nine around, you put them in the wrong order, that checksum will be able to tell you basically that this is an incorrect seed.

It doesn't work out mathematically so that you'd know, it wouldn't highlight where the problem was, but you'd know that you're entering the wrong seed basically. So it kind of calculates that for you now.

So in terms of usability, what that essentially means is that if you wanted to, say you didn't trust cold cards, seed generation, you could download all of the, I forget what the bit number is now, but the tire I could call, sorry, the mnemonic seed phrase, words, I think it's 2048 of them, cut them all up into little bits of paper

and pick them out of a hat. You could do that yourself at home, input all of these, the first 23 words into your cold card and then it'd suggest the final word to check that it's a proper seed if you like.

So this would only be for people who want to create their seed words outside of using a cold card and then they import that in and then it just double checks that you've imported it correctly.

So why are people doing that? Even if you've got the option of adding the dice rolls to add extra entropy on top of the randomly generated seed words, like is that just like hyperparanoid mode and redolfor is just like, let's make it possible for people who want to.

- Yeah, it removes the trust basically, doesn't it? Oh, sorry, but it kind of moves the trust a little bit for me. So let's just work through it. So if you buy a seed by a cold card, open it up, it'll give you a seed.

It's got a function in it that randomly generates a seed for you. Now you can either take that and trust it. It's, you know, it's the cold card is sort of feasible for those that know what they're talking about.

They can go and audit that it's doing this correctly. If that's not enough for you, you can then add your own dice rolls, which basically each dice roll adds a little bit of entropy on top and obviously the cold card doesn't know what the outcomes of your dice rolls are going to be.

So it adds, it sort of removes a little bit of trust. Now, obviously you've got a trust that the number that you're entering, let's say you roll a three on the dice and then you enter that into the cold card and it adds a little bit of entropy.

You've got a trust that that number three is sort of adding the desired amount of entropy, if you know what I mean. Now cold card have also released an open source tool that allows you to calculate that as well.

So you don't actually need to trust that either, but not exactly, you know, normy friendly. So this feature with the pick your own seed word is kind of like a normy friendly way of, yeah, another option of reducing the trust and what you could, you know, there's quite a few tools, other open source tools that you can use to do the same

process and check that you get the same final word as you seed, that way that you know, well, this tool I've downloaded, I think there's one called seed picker, you could download that, go through the process and check that it calculates the final word is same as your cold card, that way that you're kind of, you're like playing them off

against one another if you like. And that's kind of it. - But what about it? - Go. - Just being paranoid here, so if I was gonna do that and then I'm putting these seed words into another bit of software outside of the cold card, my concern would be like, well, what if there's a key locker,

what if there's some way that what I'm typing in here then is, you know, stored or kept? And then I've just given away my 24 words, like I would feel personally more comfortable doing it on a cold card which hasn't touched the internet and is designed specifically for that.

For me, I'd find that more comfortable. - Yeah, all of these seed picker and stuff like that, the tools that are available online, you can download local copies of them and run them on an offline computer if you wanted to.

So, I mean, not many people are gonna have a spare laptop that has never been connected to the internet at all, but in theory, you could do that and you'd know that you could just download a local copy of the seed generation software, pick the words out the hat, enter them into this tool, see what the final word is generated

and do exactly the same on the cold card. If you get the same final word, then you know that the chances are that this both of them are playing by the same rules if you like. - I see what you mean.

Yeah, it's like Bell and Bryce's. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay, cool. - Another one sticking with cold card. They've now got the option to clone a cold card. Basically, you can just put a micro SD into the cold card.

It'll copy all of the secrets onto the micro SD card and then you can just move that SD card across to the new cold card. So let's say they release a new one. You can download all your secrets onto the say the Mark III, onto the SD card, pop it into the new Mark IV if one ever arrives.

And that way it's just a quick and easy way to sort of upgrade to the new device, if you like. - You can do that on a Mark III to another Mark III, then presumably as well. - Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah, well, just to be clear as well, there is no Mark IV. I was just using it as an example to. - No, you've leaked it now. I know you've been speaking to Rodolfo yesterday and you've fucked up.

And I'm not going to edit it out either. - Well, if there is Rodolfo and you're listening, I want you to send me one. - Yeah, me too. - Right, moving on, we've got hardware wallet interface 2.0.

So this is the kind of official Bitcoin core translator for hardware wallets, basically. It's the rules that Bitcoin core uses for hardware wallets to be able to speak to it. So tools like Spectre, tools like Sparrow Wallet, anybody that's designing a hardware wallet that wants it to be compatible with the Bitcoin core software

sort of has to make it compatible with hardware wallet interfaces, if you like, really. So that's had an update, some quite technical updates really. But I suppose the main one is they've added Bitbox O2 multi-six signing and yeah, a lot of other technical updates.

But given that it's sort of the official hardware wallet sort of language, if you like. I just thought it'd be good to throw it in there really. - Mm-hmm. - Where are we? We've got a vulnerability patch in Join Market.

So this was quite a big one that didn't really get a lot of press at the time. It transpires that last July, there was a vulnerability introduced into Join Market that allowed, Join Market works on a maker taker, a sort of model, if you like, where there's people that put up their coins to be able to sort of

coin join with the takers, and obviously the taker is the person who wants to make a spend or wants to coin join a sat and they sort of go to the maker and say, you know, I wanna coin join this amount of sat and the taker will go, sorry, the maker will say, yeah, okay, you can do that, here's my fee, off you go.

So the vulnerability basically allowed the maker, so the person who is putting up their sat to view their log files and be able to see which are the inputs in any of the coin joins that they've participated in belong to the taker.

So quite a big sort of privacy vulnerability. Been patched now for anybody who's sort of, well, anybody who's a Join Market user that's listening to this is probably far more experienced than I am, and I've probably already upgraded their software, but if you're running the latest Join Market software, you've got nothing to worry about.

It's, let's say, been patched quite a while ago. - Cool, yeah, that's not a good one though, is it? - No, definitely not, good that it's been identified and fixed, though, from being honest.

Guys at my node have just updated to version, well, in fact, they've updated since, I've put the index out actually, so the latest version of 0.2.29, I suppose the main headline's there. They've got Join in Box, while we're talking about Join Market, that's now added into my node.

Join in Box is the open-noms sort of wrapper around Join Market. He's tried to put a bit of a graphical user interface on there to sort of increase the usability of Join Market, really. Not yet had chance to try it, as I don't run a mine node anymore, but I know I've heard a couple of people

have used open-noms' software to sort of lower that barrier to entry to Join Market a little bit. I don't know if you've had chance to try it, Max. - I haven't, no, I do actually have a mine node, but I don't really use it.

I think it's going to be repurposed soon anyway. - While we're talking about nodes, we've got Ron and Dojo guys, they've updated, they're now on version 1.9. Pretty big release for them. They've upgraded Dojo.

They've got Spectre support now. They've got Bisk support added as well, so you can use, if you're a avid Bisk user, I know you're quite a big on Bisk front max. You can now quite easily back that with your Ron and Dojo.

And then they've also added some sort of back-end stuff around automatic backups. So if anything, if your SD card fails or anything like that, then it backs up, well, you always used to back up your, you know, the blockchain data, but it also backs up the indexer data as well.

So if you've got, say, election server installed, all of that's automatically backed up as well now. So when your Raspberry Pi inevitably has some teeth and issues as we all know that it can do from time to time, they've got an automatic backup for that one.

The other one, this is the final update that kind of just nestled in into the release notes, which I thought was quite clever, is they've added some logic in there so that it increases the download speed of the initial block download.

It does a calculation. It monitors the usage of the Ram on the, whatever device you're installing it on, and it sort of moves it dynamically to increase it if it can, but for the end and use of that kind of results in.

- Faster downloads. - Yeah, faster downloads. If your hardware can take it, of course. - I think this is what, like, why was talking to me about the other day? - Yeah, exactly. He's the wizard behind all of this.

Well, one of them. - He's a fucking wizard. I got like the very sort of basic rough idea of what he was saying, but the majority of it, I was just like, wow, this is just so fucking far beyond me.

(laughs) - It's, yeah, it's incredible what they're doing, but that's cool. So how much does it actually speed the process up? - Well, all I know is it increased. It set it at 30% of the total Ram available on the device.

And I've not actually seen it, you know, in terms of real life usage, so I'm not sure in terms of how much it speeds it up, if I'm being honest. - Is it right? Am I right in saying you can tweak that even more?

So, like, if you had a really powerful machine, - Oh, yeah, definitely. - Yeah, all right, well, I want it to use more of a higher percentage, so I want this to be even quicker. - Yeah, I mean, depending on what hardware you run, people have done block downloads in less than a day if you've got the right hardware.

And, you know, I've had Raspberry Pi's that have taken like seven, you know, a full week before, seven days. And so, you know, the hardware that you run has a massive bearing on how fast that initial block down takes.

- I've done it three times of Ronan now, and it has been on average about four days. - See, that's not half to four days. - That's not bad. - Yeah, it's not bad. - Especially with your internet.

- My internet is fantastic, Joe, 'cause now. - Yeah, so I don't know how it's managed there. - Yeah, that is pretty good. I think the hard drive helps as well, you know, if you've got a solid state drive, which is pretty much the standard now that speeds things up a little bit, because it's able to write to the,

write to the disk, well, it's not a disk anymore, because it's a solid state, but it's able to write the data a lot faster than it would if it was an old, old-style spinning disk, which, well, they've pretty much been depreciated now in node world.

Right, one we've not spoken about before. It's been around for quite a while, but it's had an update. It's called the Rude Fox Borough. I'm not sure if you've heard about this one. - I haven't, if I'm honest, no.

- It's basically, it's, again, not exactly norm-y friendly. It's a command-line tool that enables for the creation and management of some Bitcoin wallets. You can run, I think you run it on a pie, and it allows you to generate your own seeds, all in an egg, app-to-way.

Kind of one for the, what's the word? I'm looking for one for the Tinkerus. You can plug a screen into it as well, so you can interact with it via QR codes. I just thought I'd throw it in there.

It's, like you say, it's one for, it's not exactly, you can use your friendly, but if you're a bit of a raspberry pie, a nerd like myself, it's a good one to look into. - I'm looking at it now on the website.

It looks quite cool, actually. - I'm just a sucker for Bitcoin-related hardware at the moment, I'm just looking at my desk now, and it's just littered with pieces of hardware and raspberry pies that I've got plans for.

- It is fun, though. There's something nice with playing around with the hardware. - Definitely speaking of hardware projects, Specter DIY, have you thought about this one yet? Have you had a go with that one?

- No, I haven't, but you said that you'd been messing around with it, and I've had a look at some pictures. I definitely like to give it a go. - Yeah, so Specter DIY for those that aren't aware is basically, it's hardware wallet software that is designed to be installed on run-of-the-mill, basic sort of computer board hardware

that you can order from anywhere you want, really. You can order like a... - I've lost Q&A here. Where's he gone? - I think I've lost you, have I, Max? Fuck. - You're back. I lost you. - Was that me, was it, apologies?

- That's all right. - Yeah, so the guys at Specter have released the latest firmware for the Specter DIY, which I have winged in its way across Europe to me. I'll be able to talk a lot more eloquently about it in a couple of weeks, once I've had a chance to have a play with it.

But yeah, essentially, it's a hardware wallet that you build yourself, you flash your own firmware on it. The idea behind it is that it, well, two things, it reduces what diminishes the supply chain attack vector.

You know, you're essentially buying run-of-the-mill hardware, flashing your own open source software on it at home. You know, you could be buying this computer board from, say, Amazon for any reason whatsoever.

You know, it doesn't, it's just general purpose hardware. And of course, you know, if there was a data leak at, say, you know, you've bought a ledger and they've been careless with your KYC information.

- Imagine if that happened. - Yeah, that'd be, that'd be a disaster, wouldn't it? - That'd be really fucking embarrassing if that happened. Um, so they obviously, if you buy a ledger, it's obvious that you're buying it to store some Bitcoin or any other insert shitcoin name here.

- That's the one saving grace with all of that, isn't it? Although it's stupid to have the shitcoins, people can have that deniability where they'd be like, "Oh, well, you know, I'm all in on XRP."

Whereas if you have a cold card and that was to leak, then they know it's Bitcoin. - Yeah, I suppose, you know, plausible deniability, also in the fact that, yeah, I went all in on XRP in 2018 and then somebody's about to, you know, cave your skull in if you don't hand it over and then they check

this price of XRP and you see that it's worth fuck all, then I might just save, I might just save your life. - Like don't worry, keep the hammer actually. You fucking need the money. - Take pity on you.

(laughing) - Sorry, I interrupted you there. So it was a, it was the supply chain attack that it sorts, which, or not sorts, but it helps with it. I think that's a really useful thing to have.

It makes a lot of sense because that is one of the main attack vectors really, isn't it, or could be. - Yeah, for personal safety reasons and also for, you know, it protects against malicious hardware while it distributes, you know, if ledger malicious and they've got some software

in there that is designed to, they're doing a retirement attack and they're waiting for everybody to load their ledges with loads of Bitcoin and then they've got something in there that allows them to sweep that in 10 years time when, you know, and then they just ride off into the sunset.

Well, that's just not possible if you're buying the hardware from say somebody, a vendor on Amazon who has no idea what you're gonna do with this thing. - Yeah, it's a good idea. And also like, I like the idea of having multiple different devices if people are doing multi-sig, which had about

that off air, it's not something I'm getting involved in because I'm just too worried about lots of funds and I'm not sort of comfortable with it. But in theory, if I was to do it, I really liked the idea of having these multiple different vendors of these hardware wallets so that, you know, if one was malicious somehow,

then it sort of is not so much of a problem. So it makes sense to have all these different options. - Definitely, I mean, you know, that's the multi-sig is the perfect example of why you would wanna perhaps include this is that if you've got a two or three multi-sig set up for your cold storage, for, you know, for your

life savings, if you like, and let's say again, you know, I keep, people think I'm bashing on ledger, but I suppose they deserve it a little bit, but let's say, let's say that you've got two or three, you've got one cold card, you've got to expect the DIY and you've got a ledger.

And ledger turn out to be, to turn out to be malicious. Well, they could do what they like with your hardware, but unless they've got the required amount of spending keys, you know, in this instance, two or three, they ain't getting away with anything.

Which is obviously the main plus of multi-sig, like you say, you've touched on massive complexities that come with it, although that is getting a damn sight easier with the likes of Spectre and Spyro, you know, the guys there absolutely smashing it at the moment, and the UX is getting a lot easier.

I share your opinion, to be honest, I'm not quite there yet. It's not good enough to make me want to make the jump just yet. - I guess the thing is, in my eyes anyway, the security, if done right with single-sig, is so fucking good anyway, that I worry much more about lots of funds from me making a mistake.

And, you know, if you're not comfortable with it, then that just makes me even more sure that for now, I'm definitely not fucking trying it, 'cause you'd be the person I'd be calling anyway when I fuck it up.

So, yeah, I think in theory, I love the idea, and in theory, it seems better in every way. I'm just not comfortable yet. - Yeah, 100%, yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Don't, you know, just keep it simple, especially if you're just starting out, you're far more likely to fuck yourself over

than you are to be, somebody to break into your house and steal all your shit. Just to, I'll drop a little tease in there that multi-sig is an itch that I need to scratch. I have fed my domain addiction.

There'll be something coming out in a couple of months that is down that sort of rabbit hole, right? Samurai wallet, new update, the big one. The 100,000 sat pool is now live. So, I think this was longer weighted, especially with the massive fiat price increase that we've seen in the last sort of six months.

It was effectively, you know, a lot of people were priced out, especially if you were just getting into the space and you didn't have many sats, and you still wanted to increase your privacy.

The minimum that you needed was a million sat, which is, you know, it's-- - A big chunk of change. - Yeah, it's not much more, especially if it's, if that's, if you own the owner couple of million sats, then the likelihood of you wanting to put all of that into a piece of software that you're not familiar with,

just to get into privacy, that it's slim that people are gonna take that plunge. So, the 100,000 sat pool opens up that door to a new use case, and I think, you know, the initial, well, it came out in the 5th of March, and I think, you know, the pool's been spinning quite quickly, shall we say, so there's been a lot of uptake with it,

and I think if you're looking to say, I don't know, spend like $50 on something, you know, you might wanna buy your VPN service for the year or something like that, this is like the perfect pool to throw a few hundred thousand sat into and get some nice, nicely mixed outputs that you're not gonna have massive amounts of change left

over that you need to deal with as well. - Can I just, I know what you're gonna go onto next and just have a random interruption with an idea that I have that is probably wouldn't work, but just come to me in the moment.

- Let's hear it. - It's gonna be fucking stupid, isn't it? If you have a 100,000 sat pool, and you have these equal output coin join amounts, so you have all the different pools, and they have the same amounts going in and they're mixed, could this be done that you had everything, no matter what size it was,

actually broken into 100,000 sats, and then that, no matter which pool, all ends up going into one enormous pool to give even more plausible deniability 'cause you're hiding in a larger crowd or would the fees or something else make that a stupid idea?

- I'm trying to work out what you're getting at. I think, are you saying that let's say you mix in one of the bigger pools and then the change automatically flows down into the smaller pool?

Is that what you mean? - No, I'm saying not the change. If you were to go into one of the larger pools, you get the discount on the fees on the larger pools, but whatever you do, everything no matter what size pool goes into 100,000 sat slices, and that all goes into one giant, huge fucking pool so that you're hiding in a larger crowd

rather than like five different crowds. - I think so, I think obviously the nature of equal output coin joins dictates that however many pools there are, there's gonna be that many different liquidity pools to hide in, so there's always gonna be those, currently there's four pools,

so there's always going to be four distinguishable clusters of say 100,000 sat, one million sat, five or 50 million sat, that it would obviously all be, you'd be able to tell them apart from one another in terms of sizes, but...

- That's my question is that, maybe I'm not explaining it well, say you had a whale come in with 10 BTC, right? And then you've got another person who's coming in with a couple of hundred thousand sats, what is the reason other than fees I'm guessing of not cutting no matter what the size is,

whether it's 10 BTC or a couple of hundred thousand sats to always be a hundred thousand sats, so there's one fucking enormous pool and every output is equal, but they're all a hundred thousand, so that the crowd is much larger, so it's even more of a fuck you, is that just fees or maybe there's some other...

- Yeah, I mean, in your example of 10 BTC in the one hundred thousand sat pool, the amount of outputs that you're gonna create, for every output that you create, you're gonna have to pay minor fees for that, so the fees would be colossal, so that's why it makes sense to pick a pool, number one, depending on your spending habits,

in terms of like, let's say you have half a Bitcoin and you throw it into the half a Bitcoin pool, you've still got a one mixed output there of half a Bitcoin, but if you then need to go and spend, say, a hundred thousand sats at a vendor that you have to give your address for, 'cause they're gonna post you something,

well, that vendor can then know that you've got the change of half a Bitcoin, so that's why it makes sense to pick and choose, you know, have a range of mixed outputs so that you can keep the large ones...

- You have different UTXOs for different different uses, I'm with you. It was actually, it was a stupid idea and I thought it would be, and I'm glad we cleared that up, so... - I think it's a good one to flesh out though, because I've seen it happen in the telegram.

Somebody will come into the telegram chat and go, you know, I've just mixed a couple of Bitcoin in the one million sat pool, and why am I paying so much of your fees, and then you have to explain to them that, well, you chose the one million sat pool, presumably because the fixed pool fee is the lowest,

so you thought, oh, it's gonna be cheaper, but you've incurred an absolute full ton of minor fees, and I think, you know, using the example, I think the average, like the next block, minor fee was something like 90 sats per bite at the time as well, so I think it's good to talk about it,

and because I think some people just see that fixed pool fee and think, oh, that's it, that's it, that's it, job done, but you've got all of the mixed outputs to deal with as well. - You have a fee calculator for this on one of your sides.

- It's the words at my mouth, Max. - Yeah, worldpoolfease.com is a site that I created with Max from the Samurai Crew, and yeah, basically, it's just a simple calculator that allows you to throw in how much Bitcoin you're planning on mixing, and then you can see the different fees across, you know, if how much are you gonna cost me

if I go into the five million sat pool versus if I go into the 100,000 sat pool, and that way, it's a great tool to see, okay, well, you'll soon see the difference of, you know, of how much of a bad idea it might be to throw a massive amount into the really small pool, especially in a high fee environment, you're gonna get stuck.

And that's not, you know, just to be clear, that's nothing to do with the implementation. That's just how Bitcoin works is that you, for every output, you're gonna pay a minor fee for that.

- Yeah, cool, that makes sense, clap a clear power. - All right, cool little release came out just yesterday. I think I just spotted it just before I released the index. It's called BTC Pymond, and it's obviously the name's a play on words.

It's basically a Python script that allows, it's not a Python script, that's, I'm talking rubbish, I've got it mixed. - Or is it? - Yeah, I'm not sure what the fuck in this was. - I presume it is, I just presume, because py, payment, yeah, it's a lightweight payment processor,

think along the lines of BTC pay, but much simpler. It's designed that you can sort of install it in just a couple of commands. It talks to your own node via RPC, which is remote procedure call, which is like the sort of Bitcoin command language that you can sort of communicate to your node with,

and provides you with like a payment button that you can embed into your website, and basically work very similar to BTC pay, so that if somebody goes onto your website and they see your payment address or your donation link, then what that does when they sort of go on there and say, right, Max, I'm gonna donate five US data to you,

that'll communicate back to your node, and it'll generate an address for all that person to send to. And so, again, not tried it, but it literally came out yesterday, but it's good to see that there's some competition coming into space for what BTC pays, pretty much dominated, doesn't it, the payment space?

And rightly so, it's a bit of a barrier to entry, but it's in terms of cutting out middlemen, it's ideal, so nice to see some competition coming in, and yes, it is a Python packet. - Yeah, I was just looking on the GitHub.

- Yeah, that's really cool. - It does, one thing I just noticed as well is it does lightning as well, but look at it. - Yeah, I can see that. BTC payment makes donation buttons simple, easy copy and paste the one-line HTML iframe into your website with a Python back-end, and then, yeah, the little boxes above lightning and Bitcoin.

It looks cool, that looks really cool. - Yeah, definitely, seems pretty lightweight and easy to install, so yeah, it looks pretty cool, actually, I look forward to having to play with that one.

Right, last couple, another one in terms of easy setups, new release called Easy Node, EZ-N-O-D-E, is basically a single command that you can run on a computer or if you've got a virtual private server or a Raspberry Pi, literally it's one command, you run that and you will be

finished up with a pruned Bitcoin core full node, electron personal server, Bitcoin wallet tracker, an RPC Explorer and Spectre desktop, and it all runs over the tour, and it's one single command, looks very, very cool.

There's no sort of flashy web user interface, as you'd expect, likes of the likes of Umbrell or the guys at my node or something like that that have come up with, this is kind of, well, it's just a different approach, but the fact that you can do a little bit with just a single command to get your own node running

is pretty fucking cool, actually. - And that would be presumably not on separate hardware, you'd have that on your laptop or something like that because it's pretty good. - Yeah, you could run this wherever, but I suppose the fact that it's pruned by default lends itself to running on hardware that you already own

because it's only going to take up, say, five six, yeah, five gig. So for those that don't want to splash out on, say, you know, a Raspberry Pi and a hard drive and they've already got a laptop or a desktop that's just sat there doing nothing that's got a spare five gig on.

This is a nifty little tool, actually, by the looks of it, that it's got pretty much everything that you need. It's got Electrum, it's got Spectre, it's got your own Explorer, and obviously, you know, Bitcoin core as well.

So for somebody who doesn't mind getting into the terminal in one or two commands to go from zero to their own phone node is pretty cool, actually. And I've just seen as well, it also allows you to connect to it remotely as well, over tour, obviously.

So again, it seems like every week at the moment that we've got just little tools and innovations that are just making for nodes easier and easier to run and makes me incredibly bullish. - It's mental how quick things are developing.

It's just like, yeah, it's absolutely mind-blowing. I'm starting to get quite a lot of, not quite a lot, that's a complete lie. I'm starting to have about three friends who are reaching out to me and they're getting to this point where they're talking about running a node.

And I'm like, yes, they've taken their keys off and now they're talking about doing this. And, you know, if they'd have asked me, I don't know, six months ago, the options would be far, far slimmer.

They'd be far less. And now it's like, oh, I just don't know. - Take your fucking pick, man. - Yeah, there's so many options, which is great. It's exciting. - Yeah, very cool. Right, last one, in terms of, I just wanted to shed a bit of light on a cool education piece from Icono Alchemist.

And he's done a five-part guide on, well, he's done it on his own blog, but it was also featured in Bitcoin magazine. I think he's kind of signed up with him, if you like, to be a content producer, which is cool.

And well deserved as well. - Great timing. - Yeah, well deserved. His guides, I think we touched on it last time, but they're incredible. So yeah, this is a five-part series that aimed at absolute beginners.

And he covers off why self-custaining is important and why no KYC is important. He also goes through setting up Samurai wallet. And there's another one that sets up Blue Wallet for those that are on iOS.

He also runs through Sparrow wallet, which is another one that's fast becoming one of my favorites. And the last one, part five was, oh, I've touched on that, yeah. How to buy KYC free Bitcoin.

So what he does with that last one is he goes to an ATM to buy a couple of hundred thousand sats for his deposit that he then uses on BISC. So he walked you through both an ATM purchase and your first purchase on BISC as well.

So I think I'll be bookmarking that one to send to people when it's just nice that it's all encompassing. It's platform agnostic as well. It doesn't matter if you're on Android or iOS 'cause you've got Samurai and you've got Blue Wallet.

And if you want to go down the desktop route, you've also got the Sparrow wallet if you want to connect them hardware wallets as well. So very cool, that one. - Yeah, that's really good. It's nice to have it all in one place and you can go through it.

And that is one thing with BISC that when I first started using it, I hadn't even considered that. I was like, oh, I've got to do this deposit and then that's held. And then I realized that I hadn't already been through a coin join implementation.

So I don't actually have the privacy that I thought I did. And that is not something I'd considered going to an ATM to buy though. So that's a really good step for people because BISC, I can get friends to use.

But if I said, you've got to also set up a Ronan Dojo and you've got to do this and you've got to do that. And then you've got to put it through Whirlpool and then send that before you buy anything.

It just adds extra steps whereas going to an ATM, any idiot can do that. It is not that difficult to do it. And it gives you actually arguably some of the best privacy, especially now with masks and hat and glasses.

You're pretty solid. - Yeah, yeah. I think one thing that we're deprived of in the UK isn't it, is Bitcoin ATMs. - Yeah, and that's what I love. - There's loads. - Yeah, unfortunately not.

There's absolutely none anywhere near me. So I'm, well, look at it, I've already got some local AC Bitcoin. So I can use it as the positive for BISC. - I don't know if you've ever used one here, but I think I was paying like, not saying it's not worth it.

I'm just saying the cost is high. It's like 10 to 15%. I think on top. - I can see why it puts people off. - Definitely when you're first coming in. Now I look at it and I think, yeah, you know, that's reasonable.

- It's the stamp price. - Yeah, exactly, and it is, I do think that if you can use one of those, as good as I really like BISC and I like HODL HODL and I like some of these options, but you are still sharing some information with another party.

Whereas with these, you've got, I think you've got to keep it under like 500 pounds or whatever limit is here, but you can just go from one to another to another to another and just do it as many times as you want.

So it doesn't really make any difference. But if you do have a hat and glasses and hood and a mask and you're paying any cash, then you're pretty good. You're pretty good. - Probably a good way to offload some cash as well because I don't know about you, but everywhere, sorry, nowhere near me takes cash anymore.

- No, I think that's part of this whole plan I really do because it's just like the perfect excuse, isn't it? But yeah, you're right, no one wants to take cash. It's a real pain, like loads of, even the supermarkets and stuff, like trying their hard as not to.

So yeah, that's a good point. - Just before we move on to the questions, there's one key one that I missed out actually. Seems like we mentioned them every month and that's probably it well deserved is spec the desktop.

It's not an official release at the moment. It's in pre-release, anybody can go and download it. It's now being packaged with Bitcoin Core. So as if they didn't make it easy enough to set up Bitcoin Core on a laptop and then download Spectre and then you can use, in a couple of clicks you can be using hardware wallets

with your own full node and you don't have to buy any hardware, any additional hardware whatsoever. All they've now taught that in the next step and they've actually packaged Bitcoin Core inside Spectre.

So basically all you need to do is download Spectre and if you don't want to connect to a node that you've already got running either on the same computer or remotely on a Raspberry Pi, you can just say, yep, I want to install Bitcoin Core and it'll just do it in the background.

So it's, fuck yeah. So it's, in terms of, it can't get any easier than that now. There's literally no more steps that you need to cut out is that you download Spectre. You say, no, I haven't got a full node.

Can you give me one please? It'll download it in the background. So that any time you make any transactions now and you're using your own full node that's already packaged in with it. So pretty big one for onboarding.

That is not an update for ants. (laughing) Yeah, yeah, well done to Ben and all the guys down there. You know, the steps that they've sort of brought us all along on in terms of onboarding is massive.

And when this is out for main release, there's no excuse now for anybody to not be running their own full node as they couldn't get any easier than that. - No, that's brilliant. Just to sort of pick it apart a bit, is there any drawback to doing it?

It sounds fucking brilliant, but, you know, does it run over at all? Are you as private as you would be if you're using your own node that you're connecting to? Is there anything other than presumably unless it's pruned, you have to use a load of storage space on your laptop or desktop or whatever it is you're using?

Are there any drawbacks to doing this? - So, yeah, your first one about Tor, yes, you can choose to run it over Tor if you want. Drawbacks for that setup mobile wallets with the exception of fully-noded, which is iOS only.

There aren't that. I don't know of any other mobile wallets that communicate via RPC, which is, again, like we touched on earlier, is like the Bitcoin Core sort of communication protocol.

So, if you, let's say you download the new version of Spectre that comes package of Bitcoin Core, you can use your hardware wallets with it because that's what Spectre does, basically. But you couldn't say download Samurai or Blue Wallet and connect that to it because they don't speak the same language if you like.

So, it's good for hardware wallets and it's a very, very easy way to get your own node, but you need additional stuff around that, like Dojo or an Electrum server or something for you to be able to connect your mobile stuff.

So, yeah, that's probably the main drawback, to be honest. - Will there ever happen that they speak the same language that you could then use Bitcoin Core with these mobile wallets or is that just something that can't ever happen?

- Probably not. I think the reason for that is that wallets talking to Bitcoin via RPC, it tends to be slower. Good example is you know, when you imported your call card wallet into Spectre, you probably had about a 45 minutes or an hour wait.

Did you, while it picked up all the transactions and stuff? - Do you know what? I actually can't remember off the top of my head. Maybe. - Well, when I did mine, basically it's give it your wallet details like your Xbox import that and then it'll say, okay, I'm gonna go and check that copy, my copy of the blockchain now.

- Yeah, sorry it did, it did. Yes, I remember. - So we should really slow it doing it, but when you've got the likes of Electrum Rust Server or the index of that Samurai packages into Dojo, which is basically the same as Electrum Server, but it's kind of optimized for Samurai, that's got its own index of every transaction

that's ever happened and it just makes wallet imports 10 times faster, well more than 10 times faster. So in terms of, you know, people that use mobile wallets, expect a punchy experience and expect things to happen instantly.

If you're just using RPC and Bitcoin Core, you don't have that functionality, basically. You've got to wait. - Fair enough. But if you were to say to somebody, right, you should run your own node, you should hold your own keys, you should think about getting something like a cold card and then run Spectre.

Someone who's doing that and they're not maybe using a wallet on their phone and they're not really looking to spend, they're literally saying, I'm not gonna touch this for a few years. In that use case, it sounds like a really fucking good option and that you wouldn't necessarily need anything else, which is awesome

because it's really simple to set up. Like I've found it simple and that's saying something. And so I feel comfortable saying to other people, just use this thing, link it to your cold card, you're done.

- Yeah, for that use case, it's like I said before, there's literally no other steps that you can't streamline that anymore. Can you watch Ben Kaufman come out now with another improvement?

I'll be like, fuck it and think about that. But in my simple brain, I can't see how you can streamline that anymore. Download Spectre, do you want a node? Yes or no? Okay, off I go. That's it.

- Yeah, I love it. - I love it. - Yeah, I think that's all we got for updates. So did you want anything else you wanted to touch on? Have you got some questions from the two people that are listening?

- That's not fair. It's three. - Ah, okay. - Yeah, no, we've got a couple of questions. So where should I start? Let me go onto my Twitter. Right, so I'll start with, I had a question from Acid Lord at Soul Exporter.

I had him on a couple of weeks ago. So he has actually two questions. So we're just gonna stir things up a little bit here, obviously. One, are coin-joined devs baby geniuses? I mean, they are throwing out stuff that looks so incredibly cool.

And then they all start rolling over the Twitter school yard, brawling, throwing out insults, even it's seemingly random bystanders who dare to comment. (laughing) - I had a feeling this one might come up.

(laughing) Do you wanna go first on this one? - Yeah, look, I'll, you know, Twitter's been a spicy place to be in the last week or so. I'll, it doesn't take a genius to work out where my allegiance is lying, the products and the software that I run because I talk about it all the time.

Quite frankly, I couldn't give a fuck who you are. If you make a good product that betters my life or makes my life easier, be that a wallet, a node, a hardware wallet, I'm gonna use it as long as it's not a close source.

And it's as simple as that, really. Twitter drama, I don't care what side you're on. To me, that's not important. What's important is people's actions and that's what I look at. - Yeah, I completely agree.

All of that's irrelevant. These things are just tools. And if they're a good tool, use it. If they're not a good tool, don't use it. And I think, you know, it's the same thing for Bitcoin.

We don't know who Satoshi is. We don't have to care. If Satoshi came back and he started, you know, throwing insults around on Twitter or, you know, there was a problem that we had with him.

It wouldn't actually fucking matter at all. I'd still use Bitcoin because it's the best tool out there. I don't like that people get put off because of this. And I think if you are getting put off because of it, rethink it because, you know, what are we all here for?

This is our last chance for freedom. This is something that's really fucking important. And I don't think that we should allow fights or arguments between people to scare us off or worry us.

Like, it really doesn't fucking matter. And I'm the same, like I openly say, samurai is the only thing that I use. I really fucking like the team. I can use it. It works for me. And I'm very, very happy.

And even if they wanted to throw insults at me, I'd still fucking use it. - Yeah, the best advice I was given well over a year ago now was just get your hands dirty. Divert is going to copyright me for this one, but use the tools.

That's the best way to learn. Get into the telegram chats of whatever software hardware it is that you're trying out. And that's the best place to be asking the questions. But there's nothing quite like getting your hands dirty and making your own decisions on what software works for you.

- All right, question two or part two of the question. And I just saw a discussion fly by about sending through liquid being even more private because all transactions on liquid are confidential transactions.

So it would be interesting to dive into liquid because there I am missing a lot of info. Me too, I miss I don't really know. This definitely has to go over to you. - Yeah, I mean, liquid's another one that I've not paid a lot of attention to.

I might get some criticism for that. And I think in the coming years to come, I think layered solutions aren't going anywhere. And I think that they're all going to be able to provide with varying levels of usability and different benefits in terms of, you know, it might be privacy, it might be speed.

But I think what everybody needs to consider is the trade offs as well. Through instance, lightning. Yes, you get faster, cheaper transactions. You've also got a massive barrier to entry.

If you're doing it the proper self-sovereign way. Liquid, yes, they do confidential transactions. I'm not going to sit in pretend that I understand how effective they are because I haven't looked at it.

So I'm talking purely anecdotally here. I suppose the main reason that I haven't looked into liquid all that much is that I just, I struggle to get past the fact that there's a federation and that introduces a certain level of permission, you know, it's a permission chain at the end of the day,

which is the thing that we're all trying to get away from. But there's some people in the space that I respect that seem to be warm into the idea of liquid. Now, I don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

But it's something that I think I'm going to have to look into in the future, but currently speaking, I'm struggling to get past the fact that it's, you know, there's a federation and they have an impact on what I can and can't do on there.

Yeah, from the little I understand about it, that's the same with me. I just haven't really thought any more about it because of that, it doesn't mean it's bad. I think it'll be driven out of necessity as well.

If, say, on chain fees become absolutely colossal and stay there and lightning doesn't gain much traction, the necessity then is going to drive people to look for an alternative, whether that's liquid or, you know, another layered approach that we, that doesn't even exist yet.

But I think we just haven't had, or I personally haven't had enough of an incentive to look elsewhere just yet, but I'm not, you know, I'm not absolutely dismissing it. There may be some benefit there, but I'm not even going to begin to pretend that I fully understand it yet.

- Maybe it'll be a combination of a few different implementations and a few different layered solutions in the future and who knows. So I think we just have to keep an open mind, but yeah, certainly can't speak with any sort of authority, but I'm open to anything that increases privacy.

I'm just not sure. - Me too. - Okay, cool. One more question from Mr. Crown. What is the best use when a group like 21ism want to manage their Bitcoin? This is actually a question that sort of relates to me.

We've been chatting in the background with 21ism, trying to work out how we can have like one pot of money where we can use it to pay for all the things we need to pay for, make sure everything's done on time and divvy up at the end, but not put trust in one person.

It's something that we're just trying to find a solution on at the moment. And he, I think, had looked into blue wallet as an option and maybe using phones as signing keys or something like that.

We really haven't come to any sort of conclusion yet, so maybe you can shed some light on that. - Yeah, I think, well, you've got two main options, and you've got number one, you've got the trusted approach of you have somebody who holds, who looks after the bank balance.

Probably not the best idea, no matter how much you trust the other guys at 21ism, given the fact that this is Bitcoin, there's no refunds, and most, well, a lot of you are nims. You ain't gonna find Mr. Crown if he disappears off the face of the earth as an example.

The other option is obviously multi-sig, where you've all got a key, and obviously, my suggestion would be to have a multi-sig forum where it requires a majority to spend from, so let's say there's 10 of you, I would make it a six of 10, for example, so six of you need to sign a transaction to be able to spend cash.

Now, obviously, the caveat to that is is, you're all remotely and dotted at various locations across the globe, that's gonna make signing transactions a bit of a pain in the arse, which, if you're gonna be transacting regularly, is gonna be a bit of a headache, especially just to coordinate that many people.

It's hard enough for me, and you need to lock down the time to record some times, and you might imagine trying to do that with a six out of the 10 of you. - There's six of us, like you said, yeah, all of us nims, so all of us could fuck each other over, all different parts of the world, so it is a difficult one,

and, yeah, getting together is quite often a difficult thing, so it is a difficult one, but I can't think that we're the only people who are having this similar sort of issue, because so many Bitcoin is a global movement, people are working together, collaborating all over the planet,

and as these businesses grow and these ideas get bigger, this is something that's gonna need to, well, a lot of people are gonna have the same issue, basically. - Yeah, I mean, the tools are getting easier, and I suppose, obviously, you're working collaboratively, if you say you have a weekly or a bi-weekly call, one person has got, say,

spec the wallet with your multi-sing wallet built on it. It's not, I suppose, breaking it down, it's not that hard to sign to sort of sign a transaction, and then pass it to the next person, and, you know, if you're all on a voice call or something, it wouldn't be too difficult to coordinate, I guess.

I suppose you just need to think about how regularly that you're gonna transact, and what sort of values you're gonna transact as well, if it's just gonna be really low-value stuff, and sometimes trusting in that situation isn't that big of a deal, but it just depends on values and the risk involved.

- True, yeah, that's something we need to discuss, but a good little shill opportunity there for us, that was good, so if you haven't checked out 21 is, I'm gonna fucking do it now, it's really good.

We're working really hard on it, we've got some incredible artists, and you've been on quite a few times as well, holding my hand through the more technical stuff, which has been great. - Yeah, really enjoy them, Jat.

It's nice to, obviously I'm sort of in inverted commas and clouded with cringe, but in it for the tech, that's what kind of floats my boat, I'm very much about the how of Bitcoin and less about the why, so yeah, the chats that we have with some of the brightest minds and that are literally building this shit out day by day,

yeah, I really enjoy it, so I'll look forward to the next one. Is there anything else that we haven't covered or any other questions that you've got sort of as we're on the call? - I think we've hit all of my lists, to be honest.

- We covered so much before we jumped on, that was a real shame. (laughs) We often do that, we cover like twice as much before we do the call. - Yeah, I suppose I just wanted to give one little shoutout really to a device, sorry, the team behind a device called SeedSiner.

I've got all most of the hardware sat on the desk in front of me, it's what it basically is, is a Raspberry Pi Zero that you can pick up for like a kind of coconut, packet chewing gum. It's really cheap device and it's basically like a hardware device that you can use to generate seeds and sign transactions in an air-gapped fashion,

very, very similar to SpecterDIY, just another approach to it, and it really talks on my nerdy heartstrings. So I'll be sharing some, I'm just waiting for the case to come from a really cool guy that I've been speaking to in somewhere in Europe and he's sending me a case for it that he's 3D printed.

But yeah, it seems to be quite an unknown project at the moment, so I just wanted to sort of shed a bit of light on it 'cause I think it's really cool and it's just another option for people to use in multi-seed clubs that aren't afraid to get their hands dirty a little bit.

So yeah, go and check it out. It's, oh fuck, I forgot the website now. I think it's a seed signer. - Hold on, it's seed signer, that's the GitHub. They're @seedsigner on Twitter. - Yeah, it's just, if I can find it, I'll put it in, I'll send it so you can put it in the show.

I think that's why I can't find it because they've only got a... - They've only got a GitHub. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But it is cool, I've been looking at those for a while. I like the design as well, I think that's really cool.

Just like simple, it almost reminds me of like an old Nintendo, like a joystick on it. - Yeah, yeah, really, it's just a really cool little bit of hardware. Work respect the desktop as well.

So it's cool, I'll share some pictures of it once I've got the case and it's all built up. - And what does one of those maybe? - It's basically a Raspberry Pi Zero, a little tiny little LCD screen that goes on top of it and a camera that slots into the back of it.

I think you're looking at like 35 to 40 quid. - Okay, that's pretty good. - And if you've got a 3D printer, you can obviously print, they share the files for the case as well. So, you know, all in all, you can get one for like 50, 60 quid.

It's a... - Yeah, that's very good. Yeah, that's very good. But yeah, I think that rounds it off for me, Max, unless you've got anything else, man. - No, that's it. That was a good one. Thank you.

Thanks for everyone who came in with the questions. They were always appreciated. I think it's a really good part of the show because they're the sort of questions I want to ask myself. And I think, you know, a lot of people maybe are too scared to ask or don't want to put themselves out there.

But I think it's really good because it answers the questions that people don't want to ask themselves. - Yep. 'Cause you're as always, Max. - Yeah. All right, mate, until next time, we'll speak soon.

- Cheers, mate.