EP83 Bitcoin podcast with @yonatvaks

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Alright, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back, everyone. Today's guest is Yonath Vax. I recorded with her a few weeks ago for 21ism. She is currently still live, and it's block six. So if you haven't checked that out already, go and have a look.

The link is in the show notes. She's an incredible artist. The work is absolutely beautiful. And not only that, but she was very insightful and had a really interesting conversation with her on lots of different topics.

Thoroughly enjoyed the chat and thought it was worth posting here. I hope you all enjoyed the episode and definitely go and check out her work. Thank you to Coin Floor UK for sponsoring the show.

Anyone in the UK who's looking to dollar cost average by weekly, you can do this from your own account. You can set up a direct debit and at any time, if you want to, you can just cancel it.

They're the only exchange I sent friends and family to in the UK. And if you are buying weekly or monthly and you've used the code in the show notes, you'll get 30% off. Next up is Crypto Clokes.

My new sponsors for the show, they're making some incredible stuff. You probably already know about them, but if you don't, you are seriously missing out. Go to CryptoClokes.com. Check out what they're building.

It's Bitcoin only. You can pay them Bitcoin. You can pay with lightning. They have some incredible node cases. Everything can be customized. I've got a couple of things coming to me that I am really, really excited for.

You might have already just built your node and you've got it running. And like me, it's just sat there like, you know, just a Raspberry Pi on the side and gathering dust and you think, oh, yeah, this deserves better.

And it does deserve better. This is for your freedom. So code it correctly. Go to CryptoClokes.com. And if you do decide that you buy something from them and it arrives, you've done something a little bit different.

You've maybe done something with the design that you think is particularly cool. Send me some pictures. I'd love to see it anyway. Let's dive into the episode. I really hope you enjoy any questions you can always reach out to me.

- Welcome to the show. Your Nat Vax, as I've said to you before, I absolutely love your work. 21ism is very proud to be showing your work off and to have you in block six as our featured artist, really, really looking forward to learning a little bit more about you and your work.

But for anyone who doesn't already know you, can you do a little bit of an introduction, please? - Yeah. First of all, thanks for having me. I love what you guys are doing. I think 21ism is really important.

I mean, to talk about Bitcoin culture and art, I think it's a fundamental part of this movement and you guys are doing really quality work. And I'm honored that you asked me to come on. So thank you.

- Thank you. That means a lot. - So I've been doing, well, I think my journey towards art was a long one. It's always been a part of my life. I think I've always loved art. I've always loved making things ever since I was little.

But I think it was a long journey until I really got to doing this as a professional career. I went through a lot of different rabbit holes before I got into this one. But I think I got into a point in my life where it was like, you know what?

My real dream was always to be an artist. I think it was always kind of like, you know, it's not practical or whatever and I went to study different things. But I got to a point where it was like, you know, fuck it.

This is what I want to do when I went to start. You know, I kind of, I moved to a different country and I went to do like a little art course to get me started. And I just dove right into that.

And to Bitcoin, I got, you know, to like Bitcoin art to Bitcoin, I got in, I found out about Bitcoin in 2017. So just before the bull run, if you remember, there was that hack, WannaCry? Do you remember that?

It was... - Vaguely, I didn't enter until right at the end of 2017 if you could pick the absolute top. - Yeah. - That was my entry. So it may have been slightly full, but it does ring a bell.

- Perfect timing. - Yeah, so WannaCry was in, I think it was in, it was just before it was like in May of 2017, it was this hack, it was big in Spain and England actually, it was the hack, like the biggest telephone company in Spain and gas company and in England, it was the health services and they were asking for Bitcoin.

And when I read about it on the news, it was like, "Oh, what's this Bitcoin thing?" And, you know, why someone going through all this trouble for it? And that's when I got down... Yeah, that's the first time I heard about Bitcoin and yeah, that's when the whole journey kind of began.

- Interesting, it's like, you thought yourself, right, someone's gone to a lot of trouble to do this hack and they're asking for this Bitcoin thing, it must be valuable, is that kind of okay?

- Yeah, it's like, you know, it's like whatever hack, but this Bitcoin thing sounds interesting, so, you know, look this up. - Yeah, it's interesting how we get pulled into it. Both the art and Bitcoin.

And, you know, it was interesting when you said, "Basically, you hit fuck it." You were like, "I just wanna do what I love." And everyone pushes against it and says, "You know, don't be an artist and then certainly don't be involved in this Bitcoin thing and definitely don't do both."

But you've got to that point, it sounds, where you're following your dreams and you're doing what you're passionate about and that's a really amazing place to be in life. That's a place where you can build a real life from it because I think so many people are stuck in that rat race and they're too scared to chase their dreams

and it causes a lot of resentment, it causes a lot of problems within yourself that then you push onto other people or certainly I did before being involved in art and Bitcoin. It's such a refreshing way to live and it's real and it's honest and I think that's why we're seeing such great work in this space in particular.

And, you know, I said to you before we started, the thing that I'm seeing with you all work is it's so varied and it's amazing to see proper oil on canvas. Like to see real beautiful work, you know, we'll get onto NFTs and we'll get onto the digital artwork and stuff at some point during the conversation.

And I find a lot of that stuff great and I know you do it as well. But I've really been drawn to these oil and canvas you've done and also to the whale harpoon to have something physical and it's just like I watched the video you did on the Twitter thread and the work that has gone into this,

we talk about low time preference in this space a lot. This is proper low time preference art, it's incredible. So how did that come about? Where did you saying, right, I'm going to become an artist, you find Bitcoin because of this hack, where do these two merge and you start creating Bitcoin artwork?

- The thing is that before I discovered Bitcoin or before I decided to dedicate myself to art, I really wanted to go into research. So I had this, you know, fork in my life where it was either going to study art or going and then someone told me about this college where I was close to where I was working that was for alternative therapy.

And I obviously knew about it but it was never something I thought about and I always like to learn about new things or just kind of discover things I don't know about. And I want to study that and I went down this huge, you know, another rabbit hole of, you know, the human psyche and, you know, alternate states of consciousness

and kind of like why we do the things we do, why we think the way we think. And after learning that, I really wanted to go to research about, you know, mind, body or different states of consciousness and I went to university to kind of follow that path of research.

And I was, you know, it was a really, really big disappointment because I started learning, you know, psychology and I was sitting in classes with notes from people that were in the same professor's class from 10 years before and he was practically, you know, all of them were practically saying the same things.

And when I told them that I was interested in like mind, body work, you know, to study that or study different states of consciousness, they all looked at me like I was crazy. And it was real, you know, this academia that was supposed to be, you know, the place of knowledge and experimentation turned out to be a complete fraud.

And then that's when I, you know, it was that pivotal moment of like, you know what, I can go do art and do my own research and make art about it. And that's kind of like how all of my art is done.

It's like I get to read about things that interest me and make art about them. And that's where the low time preference comes from. It's like, like every artwork I do is like this journey into like I read loads of books and essays and everything about it.

And it's like, it's like a way to do, you know, research about something and create something out of that. And I just love the process, you know, it's not even the final product, the whole learning about it.

So, yeah, that had come up with me almost a year to make. - Really? I mean, I say really, but that doesn't shock me at all. I can see the level of work that has gone into it. It's really, really incredible.

It sounds like you basically you're enjoying your study and then you're documenting what you're learning from your study and you're doing that through your art rather than through a journal or a written paper or maybe you do both.

That's an interesting way of doing things. And it's nice to break away from these institutions which you rightly say are that basically a scam at this point, it's like, you know, that you have to go with the status quo.

Don't think, just remember, just remember what we tell you and then sit in exam and then copy what we've told you. And if you copy it well enough and don't think for yourself, it will give you a good grade.

And that's a shame. And, you know, if you look through history, all these studies and everything that people think they know are proven wrong. At some point, every diet, every thing we think is healthy, you know, all these different things are always proven wrong.

And it's weird that a lot of it is still called science. - Yeah, no, totally. It's like that. - It's the opposite. - Yeah, I remember actually being in a class that it was about scientific research that says that science isn't about the truth.

It's about, you know, discovering something until someone proves it wrong, right? Like, that's the basis of scientific theory. And it was like, well, I wanna study what you're doing that I think is wrong as you're just completely closed-minded to it, you know, the same professor that was teaching this

was completely, you know, it was like just ridiculous and yeah. - And was that, so it was psychology you were studying, was it? - Yeah, it was, I started with psychology and philosophy and then biology to kind of study, yeah, mind, body, work.

But again, it was just, yeah, it was just boring, honestly. Like when I was studying alternative therapy, it was more, you know, through experience and through what we were, you know, we were practicing all kinds of things.

And I learned so much more out of that, out of my, you know, personal experiences than just sitting in a class and, you know, professor reciting things he's been saying for 10 years now. - What alternative therapies were particularly interesting you that were sort of shunned by the professors?

Was there anything or a couple that you were looking into and thinking, wow, you know, I really think this is something important and it could make a change. And then they just sort of treated it like it was stupid or not of interest in them.

Was there something in particular that you found through your experiences that you really thought was important? - Well, I think the moment you say alternative therapy to them, you just look at you like you're crazy.

It doesn't really matter which one it is. But I think the one that was most interesting to me was, it's a kind of a breath therapy. So you breathe in a certain way, you kind of hyperventilate and don't ask me how, but it kind of alters your state of consciousness.

So sometimes you get, you know, memories of things that happen to you or just physical, you know, you can all of a sudden feel numb or feel your body is all tense or you start crying or it kind of, you know, in the same way that I think drugs kind of alter your state of consciousness

in a more synthetic way maybe. Then breath, you know, if you breathe in a certain way, if you get a lot more oxygen than you're used to, then your mind does that in a natural way. And so one of the big, you know, someone that participated in this or that invented like a certain form of breath therapy,

he was actually, he was a psychiatrist that in the 70s was doing experiments with LSD because LSD used to be a psych, like a therapeutic drug for psychifications until it became illegal. And he said that breath therapy was kind of, does the same things as LSD, but brings up like memories or experiences that you're able to process.

So what LSD does is it brings up things that you're still, that, you know, that maybe you're not ready to face, you know, demons from the past or whatever that you're not ready to face. And that's why, you know, people can go through really bad experiences with that, but with breath therapy, it kind of brings up things

that you're ready to face. And I thought, you know, I learned so much about the way, you know, how in the first years of our lives, we learn about, you know, we kind of create the beliefs we have about ourselves, about the world, you know, through just experiences that we have, it doesn't even have to be like these big traumas,

just everything that happens in our lives, you know, affects the way we look at the world. We look at ourselves and it's really, really interesting. And I think, you know, I've brought a lot of that into the art that I do today, 'cause I think a lot of the way we look at the world is part of, you know, it's all stories in the end

that we tell ourselves as individuals or as a society and just kind of fascinating. - Oh, I completely agree. You know, what you're saying about, you have these experiences and you hold these experiences with you and it forms your character and it forms our fears.

And sometimes we don't even know what that experience was or why we behave a certain way. And it can be really detrimental at times. And I've heard so many people who have had great therapy with either ayahuasca or psilocybin mushrooms and all these different things that can sort of, they come out quite often saying, you know,

I was just literally, I was looking at the world completely wrong, I was behaving wrong, you know, I was selfish or I was this or I was that. And they feel cleansed and sort of more open afterwards.

It's something I've been too scared of personally because I just know I would have a bad trip. And what you're talking about with these breathing techniques, I think that's great because, I mean, at the end of the day, a lot of these drugs are just unlocking other drugs that are released within your brain anyway.

And so I can't see why this can't be controlled through meditation or breathing and these kind of things. And that's fascinating. And how does this impact your work? You're saying this kind of, you're telling this story through your work.

Do you still study those kinds of things as well? Or have you now sort of moved on from that and painting and working as your main focus? - Well, I think, you know, these are still things that interest me.

So I still read about them. I still try to do, I haven't done the breathing exercises in a while, but I really want to go back to that. But I think it influences my work in a way that, you know, it kind of showed me how we, again, how, you know, how we construct our reality in the end, you know, that I think there is no one truth.

It's just how we, you know, the things that happen to us in our life or, you know, affect the way we look at the world. And I think that's correct for ourselves as individuals and for ourselves as society.

You know, the things that we see in the world are kind of like stories we tell ourselves about the world or what, you know, makes it easier for us to live in it or, you know, what defines the way we do the things we do.

And that's why, you know, like the work I've been doing about Bitcoin is always, you know, I take a certain subject that's connected to it and try to relate it to some other thing in history or in culture to kind of say, you know,

Bitcoin is a new thing, but there's, you know, but don't forget there's all kinds of things in humanity that are happening today and that are, that have happened in the past, you know, kind of like connecting things between centuries or between stories.

- Yeah, so let's take that back to this harpoon, the crypto way, the Basque harpoon, because that one just blows me away. So I'd like to take it back to that one. You said in one of the threads about crossing the Atlantic to the coast of Newfoundland, hunting wells and selling the oil for fortunes.

And I take it, you're sort of relating that back to the hunt that is on now and the dangers around it. And, you know, within Bitcoin and the people going out and risking something, am I right in saying that or am I completely off base there?

- No, completely. I think, so when I started this series, I think when you look at the things I've done through this series, it's kind of my, you know, my journey down the rabbit hole. And I did a few paintings about different things.

And then I got to this and, you know, one of the biggest things that are talked about are like, I think the whole theme of the sea, the ocean, voyages, new frontiers is, you know, it's part of the vocabulary that talks about this whole thing, you know, more maybe in trading, but in general, you know, there's whales,

there's liquidity, there's getting wrecked, there's, you know, going after new frontiers, new voyages. And the whole thing was like, okay, I wanna do something about this. And I've been doing a series, and I was doing a series of oil paintings, but I felt like I wanna do something else,

like not just a painting, maybe more like an artifact or something that's a bit different. And I was looking into this thing about, just the whole thing about, I was looking, you know, I was reading about just whales or voyages to sea.

And, you know, I've been living in Spain, and then I read about the Basque whalers, and I thought, wow, this is perfect, because, you know, these people that in the 16th century, you know, we're looking for something new, and started this, it was like the first real enterprise of whale hunting ever.

And they took, you know, these were people that took a big risk, you know, to craft the Atlantic Ocean then was a big risk. And, you know, I was looking at videos of how whales are hunted, and it's crazy.

Like, it's also really big risk, and, you know, they were doing something, I don't know, just the whole story had, was, you know, had similar things to everything that's happening with Bitcoin, the whole space in general.

And I thought, okay, what can I do that's not just a painting? And at first it was, I thought to actually do like a ship, like a wheel of a ship, what do you call it? Like, I don't know, like the steering wheel.

- Yeah, I'm not particularly boatsy, I've had a few boating accidents. - Yeah, we've all had them. - Yeah. - A wheel, I guess. - Yeah, a wheel. Anyway, and then it was like, okay, a harpoon could be really cool.

And then I was still learning about the bass culture because I wanted to have, 'cause, you know, I was like, if I'm referencing these people, I want to talk about something about their culture.

And I found out about the Makila, which is what the harpoon is made of, which is like a traditional bass walking stick. And the story of it is really interesting. Like the way this is made, so I found an artisan in the bass country that he's the only one that still makes it in a traditional way.

And what he does is he goes out to the four, these are made from medler wood. So he goes out to the forest where there's like medler trees. And the thing about this tree is that when you, when you do like insert insertions in the wood, like usually when you, you know, when you carve out something in a tree,

it stays like carved inside it, right? But this tree makes like these scars on top. So you can make like scars in the tree and then it makes these little bumps that are the same. So if you make, so if you make a circle, it'll make like a little circle on its branch that that comes out, right?

- Very well. - Yeah, so that's, so, so they use, so they found out about this and they use it. And what he does is he goes to the forest, he makes these like insertions in the wood to create these like beautiful patterns.

And then six months later, after the tree has made its scars, he comes and he chops off just that one branch, you know, not the whole tree. And then it's dried for about 10 years almost. And then he makes, you know, he hand makes these walking sticks that have, they have like silver engravings of certain symbols of the vast culture.

So the upper part of it opens up, you can unscrew it and there's like a sword inside. So these were used also to, you know, like go for walks in the mountains or go with your, you know, with your sheep on the mountains.

And then if you fought in, if there's some kind of danger, you have like a secret sword inside. And, and they're also like a symbol of respect and honor. You know, sticks in general, if you look back in history or like, you know, there's like Moses and his stick and, you know, sticks are like a symbol of respect.

And I don't know, just the whole story I found fascinating. And at one point, I just went there. You know, I did like a trip to the past country and I met him and I was also in touch with, with the museum and there's a museum in Canada and Newfoundland of the Basque Whaler.

So they gave me the exact measurements of the harpoon 'cause I wanted to make like an exact replica. And I also found a a, what do you call it? Someone that makes forges and iron. For the harpoon head, right.

And I didn't know this, but when I went to meet him, he said, "Oh yeah, I made the replicas "for the museums about the Basque Whalers." And I was like, "Oh my God, perfect." (laughing) Like it was a complete coincidence that I got to him, which I don't really believe in coincidences, I think they happen for a reason.

But anyway, yeah, so we made this harpoon from, you know,

it's an exact replica, the exact measurements of the whaler of the Basque harp, you know, harpoons that were used. And then I painted like a story of a certain person on it with the story of the Basque Whalers.

And yeah, that's the story of that, I think. I try to always go back to like another story in history to say like what's happening now is new. And, you know, it's a revolution and it's something we need to focus on, but there's a lot of things that are common

that have happened already in history, you know? - Yeah, history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. - Yeah, I thought it. - It's so true. And yeah, and I love that you're collaborating with people on this.

You know, that really, it makes me think of Bitcoin as well, not only the story behind it, but Bitcoin to me is just a group of crazies who want a better world, who are collaborating against all odds and whatever comes up against them, we work together and create something incredible.

And I like that you've taken the time to actually find people who can create the parts you want for this piece of art and the low time preference, you're talking about, you know, 10 years to this piece of word and the thought that's gone into it is very important because you get one chance.

And again, with Bitcoin, it's one chance. We have one chance to do this properly. And if we take that analogy of us going to sea and going against the odds, what's your thoughts now that you've been in the space for some time and you're dedicating so much time to creating this work?

What's your feeling of our space, our culture, where this whole thing's going? What are you thinking about? Is there anything that's concerning you or anything that's particularly exciting you within Bitcoin at the moment?

- You know, I think Bitcoin... So before I discovered Bitcoin, I was at a point where I was like, no, I just wanna run away, live in the mountains and hope I die before, you know, the world goes for shit.

Like it was kind of like... - Relatable. - Yeah. Like, it just felt like the dystopia is coming really fast and there's nothing we can do about it. And I didn't wanna know anything about technology.

Really, like, I was like, I don't wanna know anything. I just wanna run away and hope, you know, it doesn't ring to me. And when I found out about Bitcoin, you know, obviously it took, you know, a journey to understand what it really is, but, you know, I think like most of us, when we heard Andreas talk, it was like,

wow, you know, for me it was like, wait, there's hope, you know, there's, you know, it's not... We're not doomed to... I don't know, you know, with everything that's happening now with Corona, it's scary, you know.

The scary part for me now is not even what governments are doing. It's the fact that people are just taking it, you know, like not even taking it. It's like they're agreeing with it. Yeah.

And so it's scary on one hand, but on the other hand, I feel like, okay, you know, this part, again, you know, if you look back in history, there have been, you know, empires have fallen and then something better was created.

And I think, you know, Bitcoin gives that hope for that something better that is being created. Not that we're not in for, you know, bad times. I think we are, but it kind of gives hope that, you know, there's something on the other end of the tunnel.

And I think the poetic thing for me about Bitcoin is that, you know, that the Bitcoin doesn't care. Like it doesn't matter how the people that use Bitcoin are, you know, that it's on one hand, you know, it's peer to peer, it's something that makes the world a better place.

And simultaneously, it doesn't matter if the person that's using it is evil or not. It just doesn't matter. And I think that's the beauty of it. You know, the poetic thing about it, that it can make the world a better place, you know, and it doesn't need the benevolent dictator or the,

or just, it doesn't even need a benevolent person, you know, you can be evil and use Bitcoin. It doesn't even matter, you know, like above that kind of. - Yeah, it's just a tool. It doesn't need a marketing campaign.

It doesn't need politicians behind it. It doesn't need any of that. It just is and it works and slowly, but surely people are finding it and they're finding it from all different ways, you know, like you just had your ear to the ground and realized, oh, someone's going to take the effort to hack and do all of this for Bitcoin.

It must have value. So you've come in like that, you know, other people, they'll see a piece of art or hear some music or they'll read a magazine or they'll see something which just piques their interest.

And then a very small percentage will go, right, this is the most interesting thing on the planet. I'm going to dedicate all my hours to learn about it. And then they end up on Bitcoin Twitter.

And there's just a few people on there, but it feels like it's growing and it's lovely to have, I think, you know, what 21 isn't really what we're trying to do is create like a snapshot each month for each block of, what are people saying, like, what's happening within Bitcoin?

What's happening in the world and documenting it? Documenting what are artists saying? What are developers doing? And how is this changing month by month and trying to have one place where people can go and go, right, okay, that's what was happening then, because I kind of feel, you know, five years from now, 10 years from now,

unless it's documented properly, some of this will be lost, some of it will be forgotten and that's such a shame because this industry and the people in it are fascinating and passionate and it's such a different feeling to what I've ever experienced before to have these sort of people who really care, really passionate, really, you know,

that they're not scared to try and say, yeah, I'm gonna try and change the world and they're not scared that people are calling them crazy and they're not scared that they're going up against, you know, the most powerful people on the planet, they're just saying, no, we want change

and we're gonna do it and that's really an inspiring thing. It's, yeah, it's awesome to be around, I love it. - Yeah, completely. I think it's really important. I think also when you look back at, you know, at change in, you know, revolutions or in history, you kind of look back and you admire the people

that were going against the system. You were like, wow, how did they see what nobody else saw? But, you know, I think when, if you, if we were able to talk to those people, they would have said, you know, even when you read their story, it's usually a story of, you know, everybody hated them, everyone thought they were crazy

and, you know, their story came out just in retrospect. And, the outcasts and the misfits who make the change and then everybody else retrospectively, they go back and say, oh yeah, we always knew.

Yeah, yeah, that's gonna happen. It's always that way. But yeah, that's the great thing with art, is that you can document these things and picture paints a thousand words. And, you know, I've liked looking through some of the things you're doing, that one, another thing that particularly interests me was this five generations

that you've done and looking back through time. And there's some beautiful work on there. It really is lovely. And I wondered how that came about. What sparked you to look back into the past and document it?

That was one of the first things I painted when I, you know, when I decided this was what I was going to do. And I think for me, it was just kind of like a personal journey. And so the five generations is a series about my great grandmothers.

So I'm from Israel, like I'm both of my grand, well, almost all my grandparents were Holocaust survivors. And this was kind of like a personal journey. You know, I was going through photos that my grandmother had of just of her family and honestly, it was just a personal thing

to go through, you know, what she went through, you know, losing all her family to, I also think it's relevant today. You know, losing her family to a horrible thing that happened in the past and what she went through and how she, you know, started her life over with everything that she went through.

And it was kind of like a way to get in touch with the past, with my past that I never knew. And yeah, I think about that a lot today, you know, because so, so both of my grandmothers and one of my grandfathers, they were, you know, they were all Holocaust survivors.

And my other grandfather, his father, saw what was coming and moved to South Africa before the Holocaust. And, you know, I think about that a lot today. It's like, you know, you look at the Holocaust and you think like, oh, that will never happen again.

That was just this horrible thing that happened in the past. And, you know, we know better, right? And we have to remember that we don't know better. You know, there was, you know, the population that was living then, they weren't evil, they weren't different.

You know, they were manipulated. Just like we can still be manipulated today. And, you know, I- - We are being. - Yeah, we are being. And, you know, I see, you know, I know both of my grandmothers that went through this and how this affected their lives, you know, you know, going through the greatest horrors

of the last century and how that affected, you know, their life and their children's lives. And, you know, even our lives in a way, you know, this is generational. It doesn't stop with the person that's actually going through this.

You know, it leaves scars for generations in the end. - Absolutely. It leaves scars, but it also, it also builds us. It toughens us. And that passes through the generations as well. I think it's such an important thing that you've done there, looking back at the past and by creating this artwork,

you're really learning where I think a lot of people, you know, I've been guilty of it myself. I've lost all my grandparents now. And I got very, very close with my grandmother before she passed.

She was going through a similar, without doxing myself. Not a particularly good time. And the stories that she's told me, I'm sure, have shaped some of the way I think about the world. Because, as you rightly say, people don't see things coming.

They are manipulated. They're not evil. You don't just have an entire country or an entire area where every person there is evil, but people can be manipulated and they can be forced. And the manipulation techniques are becoming possibly more sophisticated, harder to notice.

And some of these things play out over a very long time. But I think more people should take the time to look back at history, listen to what their grandparents tell them. And actually, it gives you a better way of looking into the future and seeing what could possibly come and act on it.

Because otherwise, it's suddenly there and then it's too late. And that's one thing that I see a lot is people taking the time in this space to consider the possibilities, to consider what's coming and prepare for it and try and spread that message and allow others to see it.

But it's very hard. So when you're saying about your grandfather or your great-grandfather fleeing to South Africa, is there any documentation from him or anything in the family where anyone listened or was it just he fled and no one could see it?

That's a good question. I've never-- well, my grandfather is not alive anymore. I don't know what his-- it was his great. It was his father. My grandfather was a child then. So it was his father that sought coming.

I actually don't know if the rest-- if he told other people or his family or he just kind of did it himself. But I actually saw a video a few days ago of a Holocaust survivor that was talking about-- she was describing things that were happening then, and it was like she was describing today.

It was crazy, scary. And you see it, and you still-- because you don't want to believe nobody wants to think they're being manipulated. And when you see these things, you're like, yeah, but today's different, right?

This won't-- it's not happening now. You just don't want to believe it. And I understand. I totally get that people don't want to see it, because you just don't-- you want to believe the world is a good place.

You want to believe people are good. You don't want to believe you're being manipulated. But it's the same techniques are kind of being used today. And just like you said, I think today, the tools that can be used are much greater when you think of how social media works and the internet.

And it's just-- it's so much easier today than it ever was. It's so sophisticated. And it's become so part of our lives. People spend so much time in front of the screen. And they don't realize that a lot of it is just repetition, brainwashing.

And it's subtle enough that people don't see it. So almost all-- only once you see it, you can't unsee it. But until you see it, it's just completely invisible to you. And it's so well-hidden.

And the more the masses believe, the more you spend time around people who believe what's being said, the harder it is to wake from it. Because we are all to some extent cheap. And we all do follow crowds to some extent.

I find that sometimes I have to catch myself when I think a certain way and then be like, am I really thinking that? Have I really thought this through? Could I be wrong here? And I have to go through it step by step.

And sometimes you're like, no, I'm actually wrong. That's something that I've just jumped to a conclusion with. And it's quite like something you have to practice to stop that manipulation from working and stop being scared.

And I think it's the fear that it's really particularly helpful for the people who are pushing some of the narratives. Because when people are scared, they just don't think straight. They just don't-- they don't think-- Yeah, no.

It's not just true there. And I think in a way we all want someone to take care of us in a way. And we've been taught that governments take care of us. And what's best for us? And you don't want to believe that's not true.

You want to believe that's true. And I think you see all these things that are happening in the world. And I totally understand that you want to bury your head and stand and just hope for the best.

Because you kind of have this like, what can I do to change this? And yeah. Is it influencing your work at the moment? Some of these ideas that you're thinking about and some of the concerns you have, is there anything that you're currently working on that's been influenced by that?

You sent me through some beautiful work for our website that people will probably be seeing now as they listen to it when it goes live. But I don't know the story behind this, because I've only got the picture.

But the cloud cuckoo land one, I don't know the story behind it. But I'm really drawn to it. It's beautiful. It's just-- since I opened it up, I was like, I love that. But I've got to be honest, I don't know the story behind it.

Do you tell me? Yeah, so that series, I did like a four artworks. And I did this right when the lockdown started a year ago. So we kind of escaped, I guess, or I don't know, found ourselves in the mountains when the lockdown started.

So it was kind of a-- I was in nature, and all these things were happening. And even when it was happening, I thought, this is crazy. I mean, now when you look back, you know it's crazy. But also then, it was like, OK, I was conflicted about it, right?

I was like, OK, because in March of last year, you were seeing all these videos from China, from Wuhan. And it was like, well, is this really, really deadly? What's happening? And I just felt like there's no more-- you don't know where to go.

I think if before, there was like, OK, you can maybe trust what the news are saying. It was all of a sudden, you can't trust anyone. You don't know anything. Nothing is real. You don't know.

It was just kind of like this chaos that who knows who's telling the truth, who's not, what's happening, what's going on. We can't leave our house. We have to wear masks, like, what the hell is happening?

And then that's when-- so it was like this series of four. This isn't necessarily-- this isn't specifically about Bitcoin. It obviously has a lot to do with it, but it was more about what was happening.

The cloud cuckoo-- so cloud cuckoo land is this term that's used-- so it comes-- the origin of it is from a Greek play that's-- so it's a Greek play that's called the birds, that it's like these Greek citizens, Athenians, that are sick of the way of taxes,

and of the way the city is being governed, and they want a different world. And then they go and they meet with the birds, like the leaders of the birds. And they say, we want to create this world between earth and the sky, and live in a cloud cuckoo land.

And the birds are like, what? Are you crazy? And the moral of it is kind of like, when someone wants something that's completely different, they want a cuckoo land. Like cuckoo is considered like crazy, right?

That's what I always thought. Yeah, so cuckoo is like considered crazy, and then cloud cuckoo land is like this crazy utopia that can't really happen. And it's like a phrase that was used in politics.

So Margaret Thatcher, when she talked about Nelson Mandela, she said, you know, if anyone thinks that black people can rule South Africa, they're living in cloud cuckoo lands, right? They're like crazy, like that's never going to happen.

And so it's kind of like this politic-- it's now used as like a political statement against people that have these crazy utopias in mind. And I kind of took that and made this like weird, you know, people, you know, like a woman talking to a lion

and like a cuckoo bird there, and kind of like the idea was like, are you taking what's been served to you on a plate right now, or are you going to create a cloud cuckoo land? That's so interesting.

See, a lot of these things, the way that words are changed and phrases are changed to suit agendas, you don't even question. And I've used, are you living in cuckoo land? I've used it for years.

And I've never even considered where it came from. And I have used it as like, you're being an idiot, you're living in a dream world. So I never knew that. It makes me love the painting even more.

Yeah, that's really cool. It's a nice sort of way to flip it on its head. The idea of creating this new world is something that really resonates with, I think, most Bitcoiners. We used to being called crazy, and we used to people sort of laughing at us and changing what we're trying to do to sound as if it's bad.

And making Bitcoin sound as if it's bad and making us seem like we're trying to do what's not best for the world. But it's kind of-- it's like an annoying place to live, but it's also quite fun.

Do you find that you battle with people in your day-to-day life? Do you find that you're finding it difficult to interact with normal people? Or are you in a space now where either you've given up with it, and you just spend time with people who understand the way you're thinking?

Or are you lucky enough to be around people who are thinking in a similar way? I think-- Or a mixture. Yeah, I think it's a mixture. I think, in a way, the fact that there's Twitter and Telegram, you can connect with people that think the same way.

I'm not-- I think in my real life, if people are not into this, I don't hold it against them. I get that some people see life the way they see it. And I think people have different virtues.

And if they don't-- if they're not into this, they have other things that I love about them. And people think different ways that I don't need people to think exactly the way I think. And in the beginning, I try to tell people about Bitcoin.

And I still do, but at one point, sometimes it's like that, oh, you know what? Because in the end, it's like, whenever there's bad news about Bitcoin, you get all these messages about these things.

And it's like, oh, it's fine. Whatever. And then it's like, OK, fine. Bitcoin's dead. Yeah, OK, fine. Yeah, exactly. The Bitcoin's dead. Bitcoin's ruining the planet. And it's like-- and then when there's good news, it's like-- I actually wrote to someone.

I was like, hey, why don't I get the good news? Why are you only thinking when there's bad news? It is interesting. I think a lot of it is because people who haven't invested or aren't taking part in it, they want to see the bad parts, because they want to feel like, oh, well, I haven't spent the time for a reason.

It's not because I'm lazy or stupid. It's because I'm smart. And that's why. And so now I want to share the bad things. And as soon as they are invested or they are spending time learning, then they'll share the good things.

And so it's that confirmation bias that kicks in. But it is annoying. I agree with you. And I'm similar, though. I just can't be bothered. Like you say, people have other things that you can speak to them about.

And you just ignore maybe some of the political views or the views on money and all the rest of it. And you find the things that you can enjoy speaking about. And it is pointless. It's pointless.

And it causes a lot of conflict that's unnecessary. And it just takes energy away. And that energy is much better spent creating than arguing, I think. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, and I also think it's interesting to connect with people that don't think the way you do.

That kind of look at life in a different way. And in the end, it makes you question-- I think we always have to question everything, especially the things we really, really believe in. So in a way, even if someone doesn't think the way I do, I think there's a lot to learn from everyone.

It's true. I don't know if you've had a similar thought. But I think sometimes, what if we're all right and what if we do go to this hyperbic-on-nice world? And I think we will do eventually.

But do you ever have the thought of, how is the world going to look? It's not all going to be sunshine, rainbows. Whatever happens going forward, I think there's going to be this conflict.

There's going to be massive change in the next decade. Do you ever think about that? Do you have a thought of how this all plays out? Or are you more of the thought that, well, we can't guess how it plays out.

I'm just going to keep myself to myself, create a nice life, look after my family, and deal with what comes. Yeah, no, of course I think about it. I actually read a book not long ago that was called The Collapse of Complex Society.

So it's this anthropologist that did a study about why complex societies, like the Roman Empire, the Mayan Empire, and why societies collapse in the end, and what happens after that. And I think one of the things that struck me the most was he said the middle ages, they're

considered like this dark age, that everything was really bad after before the Renaissance. But it doesn't necessarily mean they were a dark age. It was just there was not a complex society that documented its history, or its art, or its literature, whatever.

It was just little villages that kind of communicated between them and didn't have the ways to maybe create all the things that we can now see in archaeological studies of empires. But it doesn't mean it's a dark age.

It doesn't mean it's a bad place. It just means it was different. And I thought that was really interesting, because I kind of feel like maybe that's where we're headed, that we've gotten into a society that's too complex, especially if you look at the European Union, or just there's so much bureaucracy,

there's so much complexity that it's just not sustaining itself anymore, and people want out. And maybe this what's going to happen is smaller societies, smaller models of living, but it doesn't necessarily mean a bad place.

I don't know, I think we kind of have to think of all possibilities that will happen. I think that's what, in a way, that's what Bitcoin opened my eyes. Like I said, if before, I wanted to just bury my head in the sand and just hope for the best.

Now it's like, OK, well, there's all kinds of things that couldn't happen. None of us really know. So we can just prepare for the worst and hope for the best. And yeah, just hope for the best.

I mean, I hope this hyper-bit coinization doesn't happen from one day to another. I really hope it will take time because I remember someone once saying, you don't want to be the person that has everything when nobody else has anything.

And I really believe that. I don't want society to collapse. That would be horrible. Even if it means Bitcoin is right or whatever. I hope the transition happened slowly and surely and securely so everyone, you know.

So it's not traumatic. Yeah, absolutely. If you have all the money in the world and all the possessions in the world, and you look out the window and all there is is shit, it's not going to be very nice.

And like you say, people will be envious and they'll hate you for it and believe that it's your fault. Rightly or wrongly. And yeah, I completely agree with you. This thing needs to happen slowly.

You know, as much as I get excited, to some extent with all the institutions coming in and these big buyers coming in, I kind of at the same time wish they would go away and wish there was this would stay more grassroots and with the people because, I don't know, I think there's such a small amount of people

who have their hands on this and who are sort of able to understand what's going to happen, that if it did suddenly happen that all these huge businesses are putting it on their balance sheet and we do suddenly, you know, go up to a million a coin or something like that quickly.

It's going to price a lot of people out. And in the long run, it's going to be better because in the long run, nobody has the power to just create something out of nothing and steal people's time.

And that's incredible. You know, that is something that's going to change the world going forward. But that little bit of time in between, it would be nice to have more of a smooth transition.

And I think the creativity would be better. Like we want as many people to be joining this movement as possible. We want people to be excited about it, to be building, to be collaborating and like a new renaissance, you know, this is something where we can do something special.

And I really hope it does pan out that way. - Yeah, yeah, totally. Like I think it's slowly but surely is the way to go. - Fingers crossed. Well, look, yeah, I don't want to take your whole day.

I wasted your time by not telling you what that. So apologies again for that. And yeah, I just wanted to say, firstly, I've really enjoyed the conversation. It's, we've gone all over the place and talked about lots of different subjects.

It's been fascinating. I wasn't aware of what you've done at the past and why you had come to Bitcoin and why it resonates with you. So that was really interesting to hear. And like I said to your fair, I really seriously love your artwork.

I'm blown away by it. It's very, very different. And 21ism is very proud to be showing this. It's incredible. And anyone who is listening to this, who hasn't already checked out your work, where can they go to see what you're doing?

You can just point them towards the website and Twitter and anywhere else you might want them to have a look. - Yeah. My website is yonutbox.com. So y-o-n-a-t-v-a-k-s.com. My Twitter is the same, yonutbox.

Yeah. And I actually have a new artwork that I'm working on now with the great chief monkey. - Oh, awesome. - Yeah. - Anything you can tell us about it? Or is it still speaking? - Yeah, we revealed the first part of it.

So we did a piece about, we called it the Bitcoin Babakakra. So the... - Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, I've seen it. - You've seen it. Yeah, so we kind of took the wheel of Samsara from the Buddhist, from Buddhism.

So Buddhism says there's, there's, you know, we're all trapped in the Samsara, like the suffering in life. And the way to escape that is to understand that, you know, nothing is really real.

And we have to, you know, look at our fears in the eyes and kind of ascend from them. So we kind of took all those teachings and related them to Bitcoin. So it's kind of like the wheel of Fiat Samsara.

And we did, there's this painting of the Yama who's like the monster that represents this fear and impermanence and he holds the Samsara, like the wheel that shows, you know, all the things that keep us inside, you know, the suffering of human life.

And yeah, so he did a beautiful work, you know, with laser cutting and painting of the monster. And I'm painting the part inside of all the, the different realms, you know, the different cycles you go through until you understand Bitcoin and the things that kind of leave us inside the Fiat circle,

you know, like consumerism and debt and surveillance and social media and then yeah, we'll be revealing it a bit by bit. - This is, I'm looking at it now. I've seen parts of it, but it's, yeah, it's very, very cool.

And this is going to be auctioned, am I right? - Yeah, it's going to be auctioned on scarcity on the 9th of April. - I look forward to seeing that. I will be saving my pennies. (laughing) Saving my sats.

All right, well, as I said, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you and learning about everything that you're doing. Really excited to be showcasing your work and hopefully at some point when all this Corona stuff sort of self-out and people start thinking clearly, it'd be great to catch up in real in-person somewhere.

- Yeah, I'd love that. Thank you for loving me. - Any final thoughts to leave people with? - I don't know. Learn about Bitcoin. - That's very good. - Yeah, no, I think, I think an important thing that made me understand it way better than any, you know, there's something about earning Bitcoin

that makes you understand it in a different way. So, you know, my advice to a lot of people instead of, you know, also, you know, stacking sats and buying. But if you can find a way to earn Bitcoin, you get it on a whole different level, I think.

- Completely agree. Very, very wise words to finish up. Thank you. (laughing) - Okay. - All right, enjoy the rest of your day. - Thank you, you too. - Bye-bye. - Bye.