EP86 Meshtadel monthly 001

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero. Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!

Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong?

What if it's the system that is doomed to fail? Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the world. Join me as I speak to everyone in the space and deliver to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back, everyone. This is the first episode of a new show. I'm really excited to announce this. I've been working in the background with Cino and with Sol X for a few weeks now. And I really think this is going to be something helpful for people.

I really enjoyed recording it. And we're going to be doing one every single month, the Mechdel monthly, to help people take back their freedom to help people learn how to be self-sovereign and build a community around it and all the other things that you need.

It's not all about just having enough money so that you can be free. There are other factors to this. So really looking forward to learning as the months go on and I hope you enjoy the show.

Thank you to Coin Floor UK for sponsoring this show. If you're in the UK and you are looking to stack SATs on a monthly or weekly basis, you can do this directly from your bank account. You can set it up as a direct debit and you can actually cancel at any point that you might want to.

If you use the referral code in the show notes below, you will get 30% off and I think this lasts for about six months. So yeah, if you are looking for an exchange and you are in the UK, they are the only one that I can recommend.

Next up is CryptoClopes.com. They are my new sponsors and I'm sure you already know about these guys, but if you don't, it's CryptoClopes.com, they are a 3D printing group that makes them incredible stuff.

Node cases, ways to hide away all of your precious hardware wallets. They also have things like the Blockmit for stamping your seed words into metal and yeah, just loads of amazing stuff that any Bitcoiner would want on their desk or in their office.

Check them out at CryptoClopes.com. I hope you enjoy the show. If after listening you have any ideas or any questions, make sure to reach out and we would love to have any suggestions on people to have on, anyone who can help people become more self-soffering, more free.

That is what we're all about and yeah, don't be afraid to reach out. Look forward to hearing from you. Hello, how are you doing? Really good. Excellent. All relaxed, got a drink, settled in.

Oh, that's perfect. I got my German beer. I'm happy. I got my check wine. Perfect. I've actually got both. I've got a beer and some wine for a little bit after. It's good to catch up with you guys again and I thought we should do like a little bit of an introduction for anyone listening.

This is a show that kind of naturally occurred in the background, wasn't it? We were chatting since we did the first time, obviously, I'd had Solax and Zino on previously and we found that we had a lot of different interests that overlapped.

I really particularly enjoyed both conversations and suggested that maybe there is a show that we could have that I don't think is out there yet, where Bitcoiners could learn about the things that they need to learn, to have the freedom, to have their own citadels, to have

their own land and how to build and all sorts of things and I couldn't think of anyone else than you two to do this show with and just riff and come up with some ideas and help Bitcoiners have that freedom they desire, so welcome back to the show and it's a real pleasure to have you back on.

Thanks for having us. Where do we want to take it first? I guess maybe we could run down some of the things that you guys think could be useful for other people or yourselves, as I know that this is something we all share this view and of what we want and this freedom and this land, so maybe Solax, if you want to start

with some things that you particularly are interested in going forward. I think it's so vast that the possibilities and the things that are interesting especially in Bitcoin and for me this show will be especially listening and learning as well.

I'm a very unsuccessful Bitcoiner I would say in the sense that there are so many things to explore still and so many rabbit holes within Bitcoin and self sovereignty that I did not achieve the least bit yet.

So I'm here as a student with the rest of you guys and I think of us three Xeno might be the most advanced but for me personally I am very deep in exploring the social possibilities without being an expert in anything, I just like talking to people and discovering for

myself where do I fit into this world and where can we make this better world by making it better for myself. I will jump in there quickly and say that is not true, I've spoken to you a few times now and you say you're not an expert and you don't know where you fit in, you have some

phenomenal ideas, you're very very good at linking people together. I can see that you're going to make some of these links that are going to really help change this world so don't beat yourself up like that.

Exactly. I think we've spoken a few times on the phone, we've had the pod as well and I know when I speak to someone exceptional I can smell it so yeah don't beat yourself up. It's not about beating myself up, it's just about being curious about everybody else

out there as well and learning with you guys and with everybody out there from each other and being open to everything out there. I think the most important thing that you can say about yourself is that you know that you don't know without doing this credit on yourself.

I'm not saying that I'm a complete fuck up. Leave that to me. No, no, no, I always say you learn from your mistakes so I've really learned a lot already. I like it. And so you know a little bit of maybe background on where you are in your journey to freedom

and some of the things that we discussed on the previous pod, anyone who listened to that will know a little bit but what are the things that are particularly interesting you and what you think other Bitcoiners would benefit from and would be helpful for the show?

Yeah, I was first going to say that so if you want to learn everything and go down every rep at all I think you need to make a deal with a devil because otherwise it's impossible to explore at all and I don't think it's actually the goal to be specialized in everything.

I like the approach to have a broad view about many different fields and then find connections between them and also notice there are many specialized podcasts like their Bitcoin specific podcast, their permaculture specific podcast, their prepper specific podcast and the list goes on about finance and everything.

And I myself have not really discovered those that bring all those fields together and this is what I also hope from what you're doing right now Max, like giving this broad view by inviting many people from different disciplines and get this broad view out there and to the ether.

Yeah, I feel it's particularly important, you know Bitcoin is one of the tools and it's a very important tool but it's just one of the tools that we need for freedom. It's no good having just Bitcoin without having a good security system and it's no good having

just Bitcoin if you don't have somewhere to live and it's no good having Bitcoin if you're not happy either. There is a lot that you need to have a full and rich life and I guess the way that I'm viewing it is that if Bitcoin does what I think it is going to do for all of us financially

and my next step is looking and thinking well I want to have somewhere that's a home for me and my family and I want to have somewhere that is good to raise children and that I'm going to be happy and they're going to be happy.

And so there's a lot that goes into it isn't there? It would be nice to have a show where people can tune in like you said and they can say right you know what step one how do I acquire land how do I think about doing this and if I am to get the land how do I make sure that I do the most that I can with that land and

make sure that if I'm making it self sustainable I do it in the right way how do I build how do I do things in the most efficient and best way and so these are all big rabbit holes but it would be nice to try and tie these things together and I mean I know it would

help me and I'm sure others and from from our chat previously you know with what you're doing clearly you're thinking along the same way you're just just a few steps ahead with it so I don't know maybe we could start with jumping into the land acquisition maybe that's the first step would you both agree?

If I may Max say just one thing you said about if Bitcoin takes us where we hope it takes us etc I think you should see it independently from that because it's not independently it's more like a symbiosis if you can make your life work out for you good maybe that's on

a land or even somebody in an apartment with a with a day job fair job or a Bitcoin job or whatever if that all fits together it does not matter what Bitcoin does Bitcoin just is and you can live your life like you want it so it should not be dependent on whatever

Bitcoin does you know I'm with you there I think my line of thinking there is right now I could buy some land when my house sells but it would be not close to what I really desire not close to be able to do the things that I would really wish to do on my land

and I think there's probably a lot of people in a similar boat where they don't fully rely on Bitcoin being worth more and maybe it is that they use it as collateral in the future or or some people would sell a little bit to get that dream bit of land but I do

think it can be life-changing for a lot of people who were who were having this dream so yeah I'm with you but I think that's really why I'm thinking that way specifically through my lens but I just said because it's it's becoming nowadays hodling is like almost the

only option out there because otherwise you have weak hands or whatever but exactly for the point of buying that land can be more valuable to you than whatever Bitcoin is worth yeah you could also view it from the lens of you want to protect your stack so you also

have to improve everything around your life that makes it less likely that you have to tap into your cold storage like by meaning also by by actually tapping into the cold storage because like you need to first make some investment like there's actually a layer

after skin in the game of Bitcoin is having skin into what protects you skin in Bitcoin it's like kind of another layer that you grow on the outside in my mind yeah it's so true okay so if we look at it like that if we look at it as you need to get your life together

you need to no one should be completely relying on the price of Bitcoin change in their life they shouldn't be relying on that you should be doing other things to make sure you have a full and rich life but for someone who is in a position where they are looking now and

they are saying okay I would like to take back as much of my freedom as possible and I'd like to have some land and I'd like to raise a family and to do the best job I can and possible where do they start is is there something that you guys think before this land

acquisition is there is there a step before that that we're missing yeah I think so if I may so before like actually acquiring land one first needs to make considerations about the circumstances like what do they want where do they want to live and how do they actually

visioning it all together and once this is clear you have a template now like okay this is the type of life I want to have and to have this type of life I need that kind of land you could for example want to be completely isolated like live somewhere out there in the

sticks nobody is ever coming to you there's no civilization almost or you'd be complete opposite and you want to live in the city like I think is also completely valid if you think this is what you want and you feel comfortable living in the city of course you can have

your own land in the city it's just a bit more expensive or it could be just a flat in a house everything comes with advantages and disadvantages so you need to know in advance what you actually want in my case for me it was clear that I want to get out of the city and I take the

trade off like for example that there's no transportation public transport nearby the closest hospital might be half an hour away schools about your kids like you also need to really think about your offspring if you're gonna have some like if you live alone right

now might not be a problem to live somewhere in the desert but if you also intend to have kids you also need to think about their lives and whether the place you're gonna acquire is gonna be fit for theirs as well exactly and also be able to change your mindset in

that because if you have offspring and your children are happy as a child playing in the forest or wherever you live when they become teenagers indeed their place is not so interesting anymore because they want to go out and they don't have transportation to the city for example

a very weird example but I just realized how I felt when I grew up in a very small town we had a forest in across the street and we had I don't know not a really grassland but something else a site and then a sand pit on the other side still we had a great youth but then when

I was going out that was only like a huge undertaking to go to a party for example and also for yourself if you buy a place it might be that your psychological setting completely changes so it's it's an ever evolving concept as well but I agree completely sorry yeah go

ahead no I was just gonna say what you're saying is that the the what am I trying to say that the setting that you're living in will change your perspective on life is that kind of what you're saying it will actually affect the way that you experience and live your life and the

way that you think and fail I think life just comes at you and you have to roll with the punches and just take life as it comes it's not because you buy a house or an apartment or land that you have to stay there forever just have to have an open up open enough mindset to to go further

and and dare to change yeah it could also be very well that you just live there for a couple of years and then you're ready to move again because you learn something in life or it actually enabled you to acquire something more desirable yeah but yeah it all starts with with looking to yourself

and your situation what do you need what you want and go from there that's a good point as a very good point so someone needs to find and decide what they want from life and what they are possibly gonna want in the coming years from life and their decision has to be made on that so

maybe it's easier to do it from each of our perspectives of what we want and then we sort of see if there's any common threads and then we can take it from there and go down one of those rabbit holes and the shows will evolve from that I think the most you know if I was a most Bitcoin is

that I speak to are not wanting to move to a city they're wanting to move from a city they want more land they want to be they want to be a little bit more secluded and that that seems to be the norm but it doesn't mean it's for everyone so Solax what would yours be looking now if you were to

dream up what would be perfect for you and your family and the way that you want to push your life forward what are the things that you are looking at and would be a must there you say it exactly and your family that's why I say also the set also the different factors in life that's

bring you wherever you are seeing untapped growth doing what he's doing made me jealous in the sense of wow this is really beautiful what is he doing but it wouldn't be possible for me my family is not in the same mindset especially like that so for me the decision to buy a house

several years ago fixed me in my current position I'm stuck where I am I don't see any real possibility to change that especially because my wife wouldn't want to move out but that doesn't mean that I do not have that aspiration to have some land and do something more productive with

that than just having nice flowers and a garden to maintain for the miss to have nice flowers but that said I was already looking for different possibilities here in neighborhood and Europe it's not so easy as or I don't want to say that it's easy in United States where untapped

growth is doing his thing but in Europe it's all more patchwork of ground and way more expensive on acreage if you compare prices but in a pure fantasy wise or optimal you typical situation for

me I'm looking into a forest where I can take out a soul ex-boy my son do some real nature adventures have a bug out place there actually as well possibility to just go out camping or even sea creep refuge from the stress or from whatever is needed while still having the possibility to

come back to the house here more house based level I would say since my wife and family is here I also want to make this place my safe haven whatever happens if need be I can I can always

flee but that doesn't mean that you want to leave behind whatever you built up already so as a bit corner you think also about security especially be it in the city or in the village or wherever

like a certain beginning of the show as well it's it's it is you think about a lot of possibilities it's the possibilities are so vast we see how the politics in the world are going really berserk

now the lockdowns and the fear mongering and the emotions that they are cooking up that no coin no coiners are cooking up to to Bitcoiners especially so Zeno doing on Twitter some discussions with some no co-owners I should stop that it's wasting too much time

they become really like not aggressive but the language is becoming at least more aggressive they're talking about cyber attacks at this moment but that's not too far away of physical threats I would say so that's why the personal level on realistic perspective I also think about

my place where I live now that has to be safe before I can think about my dream forest or whatever more natural environment that I would look for from what you've just described there is the way I see your thinking is you're looking at it from it's almost like you and your family standing

in a room and then you build everything out from that yeah that's the central point that's what matters to you most then you're then you're looking at okay this is my family I want them to be happy and I want them to be safe so I'm looking at security and then from there making sure that

the home is a is a happy and good place it's important that that is the way you want it to be and then from there you would build out and you'd be looking to have forest and somewhere to go with your son and go camping and escape the world that's a really nice way of looking at it and it's a very logical

way of looking at it because there's no point in getting the forest spending your money on that going camping and then you come home and you realize you've been robbed you know that is not so smart okay yeah that that's very logical it makes a lot of sense and I think a lot of people

will will think along the same route so let's start let's start from the beginning again you've got the family the next thing is going to be security and home you know if at any point I'm doxing or anything like that you just say fuck off max and we'll take a step back but is is there

anything is there anything that you're thinking about from a security perspective that might be useful for other people yes the most important thing is is to assess where you're living I had a

website she she treats the fan the abbreviation so shtf is a guy in an exugus lavia I don't know which part is now but he he lived through the civil war there and he described what he went through

and I was a lot in in to prepping and everything about that and the most important lesson there was actually to get to know your place where you're living and that's just central awareness of of the now and that's not only where you're living but if you see outside and people or even

preppers they're completely prepared for zombie apocalypse but they're watching on their phone when they go outside and not even looking when they're crossing the street so it's it's about centering yourself seeing where you are what do I have what would I do and

looking at the options from there and because it's talking coming back to the bitcoin is you have the you guys ledger hack which is which talks a lot of people but at the same so sorry guys just pause it there for a sec because I lost you both about 10 15

seconds ago and so the last thing I heard and I'll edit this so don't worry the last thing I heard was being being aware of your surroundings and the preppers would cross the road not looking even if they're ready for a zombie apocalypse yeah okay damn what was I know sorry no problem no problem

I was ranting anyway so it was interesting right though like I think you really hit a very important issue here like not just being aware of the specific things like killing concrete examples but first making an outline of the place you live in yeah what might hit you I'm just looking at this website

it's called shtfplan.com yeah that might be here he has a special name silcos if you if you do remember can you send it so that I can put it in the show notes yeah sure we'll do but yeah it's it's about being in here and now I'm realizing what risks you put yourself in I guess

it's about the I really like bitcoin house keys flag for example with with a skull but then again why would I buy a flag and hang it out here for everybody to see well I bought three t-shirts and two caps and I've I love them too much I will wear them but it is because nobody here understands

it anyway but there there is the how to say before you look at the next hill where you can build your fortress be sure that you can get there safely without falling down a cliff because we're all looking for the big threat of people hacking our hot wallet for example or our node or coming for

our ledger but a lot of the the criminals here in the neighborhood don't even know what is a lecture for example even even though the lecturer and people got docked yeah the bigger threat is often the five dollar wrench attack yeah yeah I think we just lost soul he dropped out of the core

did I drop off the car I hate you guys no no I can see him I can see him okay then it's just me yeah I was I was going to add something I just forgot five dollar wrench attack no I lost that threat sorry about this but to add to the list to add to the list of the shit hits the fan plan

there's also another podcast I haven't listened to it myself but I often heard of him Jack Spearko with the survival podcast might also be an interesting one it's like a lot about prepping yourself for the eventual apocalypse and I think it's also including a lot of strength building and

just overall preparedness for what ever may come yeah that's what I did with the soul exploit yeah I remembered what I was going to say about security come and theme amongst bitcoiners is that we are often being warned about buying land because it could just be taken away from us from the government

like if they just turn communist or fascist or whatever and they feel they need to just confiscate your land then of course you have very little say in that it's a risk to to buy land but I think it's a risk that might be worth it like I mean of course yes you have you have to

live with this possibility but also you need to consider like how likely that is going to be and if it's really too risky for you I mean you can always lift the digital nomad life if you have the skills to do so but not everybody is equipped for that either so there's a good

strategy sometimes yeah there's a good point because even if you are you both still there or can you hit me yeah no it does keep cutting in and out weirdly but they're all all is saying all is saying green and showing us online where it wasn't before so I'm not sure why it is I'm not

sure what's happening but it's randomly like it was one of you then the other then hecking us as long as it's still recording and we are not happy to be happy no we're okay we're okay now I just want to pick in on that yeah but I feel like you want to talk a

bit more about specifics about searching for land and what to look out for right yeah well I'm just thinking I'm thinking that that's probably the starting point once someone has made a decision of where they want to take their life so so like you say some people will say I want

to be a digital nomad I'm single I don't want a family I work from a laptop you know why would I want to be in one location completely get that that makes complete sense but I think for anyone who is looking to have one place where they build their citadel and they want to be self-sufficient

and they want to think about security and they want to think about having their own vegetables and fruit and having a small holding or something like that it seems as though the first step would probably be to buy land or to buy at least a property that has land

doesn't even have to be you yourself alone like I think many bitcoiners want to live the citadel dream so if you even can find fellow plebs who share the same vision you could even band together I think it would make many things a lot easier because you get so many so many people from

different walks of life there might be an architect a doctor or just people who know how to farm practical skills, carpeting, plumbing even I think if you can find a community that shares your same the same values it's probably something more to strive for for me myself

I started with the land hunt before I even emerged myself in the bitcoin community I think if I had to do it again now I would definitely seek out and find fellow bitcoiners who would like to do this thing with me together it's an interesting idea that how would you look at how

would you view it in terms of, funnily enough I have spoken to a couple of British bitcoiners and I won't dox their names but we've loosely talked about something similar how would you view the idea of land ownership would you be thinking oh well you go in together on a large area but you

section it off and each person will own a specific amount of it you have like a shared infrastructure how would you be thinking about something like that if you were to do it again that's an interesting question they like yeah there are two ways either you split it up and everybody has their own little

plot or what I think might make more sense is that you you share the land yeah you can have multiple owners for a plot and then each of them has their own little house or maybe it's a bigger building with multiple flats inside there is a lot of possibility there I think it's up to the

community how they want to live that the issue I see with things like that is for example you know with a lot of things in life you go into something with everyone in agreement and you will have a shared vision and over time people change people's views change their ideas change and if you weren't

to each have your own specific part of the land even if you do share the infrastructure it could be that one of the people is to fall out and and cause problems for everybody else and then just the way the legal systems are certainly in the UK it's very very costly and very difficult

to sort any conflict out in a good way and so that that would be my concern you know you have someone in there and they suddenly turn into a lunatic or a crazy shit coiner bs video or something weird like that and and start like charging around doing all sorts of weird things

that are just not not in line with what everybody else wants anymore then you need a way to sort that I guess it is the issue yeah your concern is totally valid it's actually a good point there might be setups that actually allow for people to come and go if needed or at least if somebody

disagrees then they have their own little bit of land and as long as we don't attack each other it should be all right I mean like in villages or in communities there there must be differences between people and they are managing to work them out right true yes yeah that is true yeah but

the worst case could be that we start fighting but I hope not but looking at which is sometimes especially when bitcoin goes sideways then we need to find another enemy especially like among us very true so licksport are used to there yeah I was not sure either it sounded like there was

a bit of a lag or delay if he's talking I definitely cannot hear him okay so I'm starting to get a bit concerned because they hasn't said anything in a while okay hello I can I can hear you but with some background noise but I can hear you Zeno can't hear you um should I drop out and

jump in again I cannot hear soul that's got to be interesting you have to mediate between us yeah yeah no that's not going to be possible that would be that would be difficult yeah it's been a bit it's been a bit funny for the last sort of 10 or 15 minutes it's been like really in and

out and then I've heard one of you and not the other and vice versa so should we cut it I send out a new link for me anything that's no it depends how you see it uh if you think what people are just talking about in this weird situation is still valid we could just cut it off and start a new

one and then you just put them together I'll do that welcome back guys I'm not sure what was happening there both of you thought each other were ignoring you I thought everyone was ignoring me we have to give up on that episode so there'll be some editing for me to do there but

it's a real shame because there were some good points being made and it's exactly why I thought this show would be so great and get people on with different perspectives and just throw up different ideas and possible opportunities or possible problems and basically save people from

having issues going forward so maybe now as Zeno I know you've obviously gone through this process of land acquisition it would be good to hear from you some of the some of the things you went through some of the things you had to consider and whether you do anything differently if you

had your time over again yeah um as I said earlier already the first thing is to know the location you want to be in and for me I first wanted to have something closer to capital city to Barcelona which quickly turned out not to be so easy or feasible because the closer of course you get to

the bigger cities the more expensive the landscape and the smaller they even become so for me it was clear that I wanted to have something bigger for a more modest price so slowly starting to expand the search radius away from the family of my girlfriend but we found something not that far

like one half hour drive more or less and yeah the search was not easy took us like three years searching every day looking looking on the platforms there were many lands many good candidates actually but you always have to go drive there to see it with your own eyes and then quickly

realize oh wait a minute this is actually not what you want it's either between two other properties and the neighbors don't seem so alright you don't want to be there or the land is actually way smaller than it seems on the picture or if you start looking deeper into the geology sometimes they're

also also called natural reserves like a part of the land was under protection so you could not build anything there or even cultivate if you wanted to so that's something to consider as well so we always try to scrutinize as much as possible the land we were looking for

like the house needed to be good the land itself needed to be good in the location of course and coming from this permaculture perspective because I was reading up at the same time about permaculture I learned to know what would make a good land when you look into cultivating especially

but it doesn't even need to be cultivating also living comfortably without expanding so much energy so the first thing that for me is very important was where's the sun especially if you live in more colder climates you want to get as much sun as possible so if you live in the northern hemisphere

you probably don't want to buy property on the north side of the mountain because it's going to be in the shadow especially during winter and you will be fucking cold so it even applied to where I live in Spain I knew that or we knew that we wanted to have more sun especially during winter

when it's low so it needed to be south facing the land and that was the first criteria so we could already cross off the list everything it was not north facing it made it a bit easier but also a bit harder because there was less you know how to say less options to choose from

and we found a couple of lands that were south facing nicely but then the house was not like there were really nice houses but they were completely shaded even though it was south facing like all the windows in the wrong side and we were like this this is not going to work like it's nice and

somewhere for especially if you're living in hotter climates but in the winter you still you have to rely on heating like it's not like winters are still super hot here it's getting close to zero or something even below zero that's that about the sun and also how the

how the house is designed if it's inviting the sun I think we can mostly agree that many people they actually look for a bright place that is inviting this and I think we naturally seek out those qualities of a good house and if you covered that for me it was also important

about the climate situation like how much is it going to rain and if it's not to dry or to moist and if it's raining how house the land shaped for you to actually make use of the water if it's going to be a problem like on some the house was for example in the lowest point and if it's raining

all the water would be coming to the house and then you have to deal with that of course as well so after looking for a long time we finally found one one place with the with an old ruin of the stone house it was south facing it has two big beautiful arches in the inside and

we are planning at some point the front wall to also open it up but because of regulations we have to keep it closed and not tell anybody that we're going to make two arches because of regulations it's actually not completely not allowed to take down a wall and rebuild it so

regulations are also something that varies in I think many countries especially from region to region they all have their little regulations that can be completely different from each other and they can't get quite ridiculous for example we we want to have a metal roof

but it's it's it's not possible under the regulations so they they actually demand that we have roof tiles made of ceramic which is just for pure aesthetics like there are even regulations for aesthetic reasons which they don't have to make sense in a practical way

because we don't want roof tiles we want to actually remove them and collect as much rainwater as possible and roof tiles they they would prevent that because they first soak it up and there's more friction so not all the water is actually flowing to the water things and it wouldn't be a

problem normally because I think not many people actually think about hey I want to collect water from my roof like as I told you in our last chat we had but most I'm just thinking about how can I get the water from away from the house as quickly as possible but okay I I'm going way

too deep already it's more about no no no it's not this is great this is exactly what I want I was just trying to lead us to the land acquisition as a starting point but these are really really important ideas and things that I think people mainly won't have even thought about you know the

idea of collecting the water rather than trying to push it away is when you think about it really logical but it's not something that's widely done so that sort of stuff is brilliant I think it's really important but that also depends really strongly on the climate that you're living right

yeah totally because Spain is done a lot drier I think sorry I hope I didn't dogs you I know okay good yeah and with all the cats I wasn't sure no but yeah it's it's made me think about it as well that it very strongly depends on where you live and what are your needs and you really

have thought about it a lot on where you're gonna be and what you need and the question that I had about that was actually before even going to looking for the land where did you look for your information to base your decision upon yeah in my case there are a few platforms I think every

country has them where you can just go online look for the office that people have the lands they want to sell in my case we found one on a website called erealist.com I think it's only Spain in Spain so if you're a Spanish listener you probably know it anyway because this is where almost everybody

looks for flats if they want to know I meant one step further still one step further back I mean because you have all those decisions about the south facing you want the the house not being low according to the land for cultivating land that's in the permaculture that you found most of

information but that counted also for the house or that was just your own logic to look out for those elements yeah yeah permaculture applies to both okay permaculture is not only about cultivating actually it's way more than that it's the way you live even how you manage your money

or even a company there are companies that are a run on permaculture principles interesting yeah and even cities like if you do a PDC in permaculture they also talk about how you plan communities and even small villages and I think it scales to bigger cities as well so there's a lot of wisdom and

knowledge that you can play through all areas in your life actually yeah and now I'm gonna sound like a total retard but what is a PDC? PDC sorry it stands for permaculture design course okay it's something they run officially and only if you actually get certified in a PDC you can call

yourself permaculturists like officially I think they even have it copyrighted so nobody can do nefarious things with that just for protective reasons and the legal level very interesting thank you and so so this idea with permaculture is it perma as in permanent yeah well it comes from

permanent like going on on its own forever ideally and cultural like from cultivating one of the core principles in permaculture is you you look and to the energy like you do an energy audit and you analyze how much energy goes inside your system and how much you lose on the

other end so everything can be broken down to energy bitcoin we know is an energy currency even so it goes so well with permaculture even that's right and there is one interesting example like currently in agriculture it's very fossil fuel intensive like you run your tractors on fossil

fuels fertilizer or fossil fuel based and pesticides and all those things and farmers they like to talk about the yield like oh yeah I got this many tons of potatoes but if you just break it down to the level of energy like you can distill potatoes and you can make alcohol from them

which you could use as fuel so like you can get somehow the the calorie the calories you get out of and if you do the math and it turns out that for example you invest 1000 times more of energy in form of fossil fuels to get 1000 times less of yield and forms of potatoes then your energy

audit tells you that you're doing something wrong and currently this is not very obvious because energy especially fossil fuels are still cheap but once the the tap of that is closed you have to reckon with that and if you're not doing a good job where you put less energy and

get more out of it then you're not sustainable and that's the same principle that I applied to finding a land to see which landscape allows me to store and collect to catch the most amount of energy without losing it quickly currently this is the for the problem I'm facing because I still

have a lot of runoff on my land I don't have the plans that can soak up the sun energy I have one solar panel and I'm I'm receiving the water tank hopefully next week so I can start collecting the energy this is what I have been building up to for years now to start collecting that energy

and in Bitcoin it's the same we try to catch it when Bitcoin is cheap and such a sheep and hold them through a higher energy state it's the same principle there that a good hot low makes and I think it's you could say it's a permaculture thinking even it definitely feels they are very

very aligned all the planning and the thinking is done before moving everything is very efficient and thoughtful it's low time preference thinking rather than just trying to get the most yield as quickly as possible and you know it's not about that the way that you're describing the build

and the way you're thinking about things is very Bitcoin-like and the fact that you are making the most of the resources you have and not being wasteful is something that I think is really missing from society at the moment it seems so logical everything that you're saying but

almost none of it is ever done by normal people like you never see it that there's all this talk constantly about you know from every company oh we're green we're sustainable we're doing this we're doing that and mainly absolute bullshit whereas this is actually that yeah just it's just

fucking this bullshit and people fall for it but I think it's something that we can all take personal responsibility for ourselves and say okay I may not trust the governments I may not trust the institutions to do this but this is something I can do myself and this is something that you're

already doing and thinking about which is awesome because if everyone thought a little bit more that way we could make some real change and and all the resources that are wasted you know I'd never you spoke to me last time about this idea of digging like sort of trenches to make sure that the water

wouldn't run off and so that that would actually then go into the soil so that you wouldn't lose it because it would just sit on top just not something I'd ever thought about just you know it's not something I've ever thought about in any way but once you said it I was like yeah why doesn't everyone

do this like why is why people just not yeah why don't they have this way of thinking and that's really why I think the show could be useful is that people are busy it's fucking hard just to keep up with all the bitcoin stuff if you're trying to wrap your head around it it's almost a full-time

job and so if we can give these little hacks and these little bits of advice to each other and everyone can bounce ideas off each other maybe anyone on twitter who listens to this they might say that was really cool like you know I've got this other idea that I want to share or you

think you should speak to this person because they've got some really great ideas as a community we can make some really big changes this is something speaking of low time preference bitcoin is especially their inclined to also start looking into permacultures is something I noticed very

early on when I started to engage with a community that there is a high percentage like higher comparison to normal people a higher percentage of bitcoiners who also are interested in permaculture and I currently am trying to like find them all at least make a list I made a list to follow on twitter

if you're interested in following some other bitcoiners who also are interested in permaculture and recently I think it was also with the help of going on to your podcast max I could ask if there is a telegram group of bitcoiners and permaculture and I was not and

now it's open I opened it and if if you like you invite it to join awesome very cool if you think about it actually the things that the the gas flare mining and but tarantula is doing whole tarantula is doing is also kind of permaculture because they're capturing energy that's not

being found totally is um the way I learned it the those energy that is wasted is going out the so-called sink and if you can find elements in your system that allows you to catch it just before it gets out of the sink and cycle it back to the top of the system then you're doing permaculture

this is exactly what it is don't let's go to waste exactly like actually it's another principle or directive is that if you have an output which might be guess that is just flaring away if you can manage to connect this output with another input and you also solved the waste

problem because if you cannot find an input for your output then you have waste it's as simple as that because you don't know what to do with it so it goes somewhere on a dump or in the atmosphere and it just pollutes the environment that was actually my my take on my forest idea we have in

the neighborhood in a lot of uh your forests that have problems with certain boxes that are killing the trees and they're cutting them down and it's like waste wood because it's destroyed whatever i was thinking about buying some land like that a destroyed forest because most of the forest

that's being sold are being sold for quite some money for the wood especially now that the prices are going up yeah let me go up but if it takes such a wasted forest by eating away half by parasites it's a rotten wood i was thinking about uh like stegmore i forgot his twitter handle again because

he's stegmore but he's bubble 1971 bubble he has some really good engineering designs and stuff like that so it would be great to do yeah find someone else's waste and turn that into energy and do something with that that that that is my dream it's a lot of arbitrage opportunity my friend yeah

so that's that's what i was looking in yeah that's a really cool idea i think um i listened recently to a episode with marty and untapped growth and he was discussing at one point something to do with this that it may be the same person who was buying or not buying being given wood that was

taken from flooding that's none yeah okay so is that the kind of thing that you're thinking about is that you would use you would use the wood in that way and then use it as a fuel to run miners yeah yeah but uh so none yeah is um planning to do uh biochar creating biochar from uh from the

wastewood from storms and the bike creating biochar there is a gas coming free and with that he would try to run miners so with the same principle but then with destroyed trees that they want to cut down anyway to get rid of the buck that's that's going around at least i would like to explore the

possibility to to run something like that and not only to um mind bitcoin because yeah it would be a nice extra but it's just such a pity to yeah waste waste i don't know what to do with the trees now at the moment but i just that was the the main reason to

look into those forests um yeah it's um uh be the change now that's what i say with you yeah that's right exactly no that's a great idea i love that i absolutely love all of this stuff that comes out of the bitcoin community is is something that i just don't hear elsewhere i don't hear any lateral

thinking i don't hear any uh solutions it's just wasteful and stupid and then you get this group together and they're thinking of things out out of the box and not to derail the conversation too much but after you just talked about that and uh what naniya's doing and and all the things

that we've discussed here i want to take it back to this idea that uh cena i think you had mentioned with having potentially groups of bitcoiners that could purchase land together and share infrastructure and i wonder whether that would help in more ways than just bringing the cost down but in terms of

responsibilities and trade within these groups and potentially not just one area or citadel i'll just take england for example potentially you might have 10 to 20 different groups that all have five to ten different people all buying up a large amount of forest and land and maybe you

could have a network within that where you know for example uh sollex is one of them he's moved to the uk he's bought this forest that that's not really worth anything because it's being attacked by these bugs and he's now actually running this biochar so he can actually produce fuel but we

don't have the ability down in the south east because we don't have that forest but we're producing something else that he wants and potentially we can have a trade network within each country or throughout europe that completely cuts out the current system and all the stupid regulations

and nonsense that goes on and be self-sufficient to a to a better degree because there's only so much you can do as one person you do you know what i mean like you can't be doing the biochar and uh doing your own farming and running a normal job and and and it would be good if people can

specialize in certain areas but they get everything they want from each other yeah you you know you're actually starting to uh point at a topic that i wanted to bring up in this conversation it's good that's right and her son sold in the sun they were thinking of a new concept and a mesh that

i'll concept and i think so you really really should introduce us to this concept i think it's so worth it right now yes we touched on it briefly yeah let's let's go into it yeah yeah so uh solix boy and me are doing a write-up now uh trying to get it published in citadel 21 magazine

um so yeah the the idea is actually uh to uh yeah cooperate between different bitcoiners um oh yeah this so wide and so far um for the mesh that itself i would recommend uh well first of all that citadel 21 would publish the article um and but i i can share it already to you max

afterwards yes um but uh are they going to sorry just to kind of going to hope to i hope so i will send it in uh they were interested in the concept at least i don't know if they like the the final write-up okay my writing is not always the best but i have some as you know i already checked it out

and um a good friend of ours is also checking it so uh i have good hopes that the the little bugs are taking out um but um the concept of of um working together is something that's uh really close to

my heart because i think the the most important that we need for a circular uh economy uh to to have bitcoin or such as really valuable is not only holding but also using it and hearing this story actually and it's not really the the mesh doll but it's it's the working together as a mesh

doll or or a different bitcoiners on different locations working together comes back to what i said in the beginning of the podcast is it doesn't really matter where what the fiat value would become of bitcoin if you and your co-op bitcoiners or or the people that you consider your mesh

they'll the the people that are in your distributed citadel are agreeing on what is worth those sets those sets yeah they they it doesn't matter what a no-coiner would give for those sets if you know what i mean uh if you say okay uh bread is 100 sets the lumber is 500 sets in whatever measure

as long as you people agree to trade in in that currency it doesn't matter what the exchange says it's worth that's true absolutely one bitcoin is one bitcoin exactly and and that is why i think it's so important that value doesn't matter can you expand on the mesh to del idea because you touched

on it when we spoke so anyone who hasn't listened to uh to our chat go back it's about five episodes ago but you touched on it and said that you and your son were working on something together and thinking out the theory and that you guys also like to do kind of like war gaming and this kind

of stuff and we didn't go too deep into it but it sounds sounds exactly the kind of thing that i think a lot of us are hoping for and the the point you've made about having a circular economy within bitcoin i think is crucial going forward because the finance bros and the bankers and all those

fuckers are going to get involved they're gonna they're gonna do their thing but that's not real bitcoin to me so this sounds great so yeah if you can if you can dive in and tell us a bit more yeah so uh it originated in uh a game that we played uh between the two of us and um it was

actually also about what we're discussing here how do you build your uh citadel and um different strategies uh passed along and uh yeah uh solux boy 10 years old i remember myself when i was at age war games and and talking strategy is just pure fun but we did it in that way that it was um

i was at least a critical listener to whatever solux boy was saying so for each tactic or strategy or weapon system that he taught of i had the possibility to just give the same strategy or uh fantasy back to him uh so he has a cannon okay uh good you are in a country

police comes there you shoot a cannon then uh when a cannon is shot then the police will call in the army because they cannot handle it so it was quickly clear that in a realistic situation any country that you live in is always going to be able to put more troops on the ground than

whomever even if sailor has a mini army the the america is going to be always stronger in numbers and and weaponry that they collected over the years even though if if you don't want to take over the country you just want to defend yourself that doesn't matter uh the history you have seen

in in the united states especially already some some communes that tried to uh separate or whatever they did uh they always get taken over so the only logic your way to go around that is not try to fight because we don't want to impose any um way of living to other people we just want to

live our own lives and it's like uh distributed like everybody has or a real bitcoin should run at least his own note so instead of notes it's just people organizing themselves in their own situation in their own house they are a note on their own and if a country decides and uh

suddenly here it's forbidden to have any bitcoin and we will come and get them the what was the the class that uh they come came for the gold 1602 yeah that one so they do the same on bitcoin and okay why see uh bitcoin they're gonna comfort and if you cannot deliver it uh you sold it on on

hodl hodl or on bisk or whatever uh we're just gonna comfort you not only your house but you as a person you're gonna go uh go in prison oh the best thing you can do is not be there you might lose your house you might you lose your possessions but don't lose your freedom and the only possibility

to do that is to have other bitcoiners that are in your network that are there for you as well and so it's it's like a a mesh of people that work together uh or or are able or willing to help each other out and that's of course a worst case scenario but um it doesn't have to be worst case but it's

just people organizing themselves and so in our uh meshadel theories we went very far and very deep and if different strategies um in political aspects even how would you organize that um we came quickly to Dunbar's number um that that uh if you come close to 150 in in a meshadel groups

should separate themselves and that doesn't mean then that they do not those separated groups do not communicate with uh with each other anymore it's just that they become different organisms i didn't don't want to say organizations it's more um organisms because each group small or big they decide how

to cooperate with each other different physical location but still part of the same organism yeah yeah and and automatically automatically the the same visions will coalescence to each other whereas other visions coalescence with their united vision not being involved with each other

but just having different views which is perfectly okay my neighbor is muslim i'm not good uh we don't have any problems with each other religion we can still work together we can be even in the same meshadel as long as that's not a problem for us when it becomes a problem when he has a problem

that i eat pork then it might be better that i'm in a different meshadel but still i can trade with him and then you can have this on different levels like within the meshadel my meal would be uh 100 sets when somebody from another meshadel comes it's 200 sets for example doesn't have to be it's just

one of the billion million possibilities that you have in in in self-organizing in pure freedom to put it like that and uh yeah in in pure freedom it it would find itself away it's like nature right yeah it finds a way it works itself out and these natural structures that i'll give you an

example the forced friendships and forced acquaintances that i've had throughout my life through work through just survival have never been anywhere near as close and real as the ones that i found in bitcoin and that is because i associate myself with people within bitcoin who

have shed incentives we're aligned in certain ways and we communicate on on a certain level and it's natural it happens naturally like i have a conversation with someone and i will gravitate towards them for a certain reason and vice versa and then ideas start to happen naturally and then

the more people who get involved in those ideas the more they refine and the better they become and that is literally that's nature and it's the complete opposite of the structure that we have around us which is hierarchical a few people making decisions at the top who are so far away from

what those decisions affect whereas what you're actually talking about is small groups below that dumbbar number where you can see and feel the changes and decisions that you make right in front of your eyes so you're very very quick to react and refine it's much more efficient and it doesn't

also you're still saying well you're not just doing that and you're going off into the middle of the woods with 150 or less and you don't communicate with the outside world you are part of this mestadel i think is what you're saying is that it's like we are on bitcoin twitter you still can

communicate you can still buy trade help each other but it's just that you live with the people that most align with the way that you want to live your life and that's fucking beautiful that is so clever and just would be such a nice way of living and so much more efficient is the dream i mean

that's that's fucking awesome and because you don't even have to live together it's it's it can be like solids boy described it as heat adult everything so it's the smallest unit is a house adult and then you can have a street adult etc but um the thing is because it are maximally

150 people together you cannot impose on anybody else because for each each mestadel there are what five ten mestadels around you uh so if one starts to become aggressive automatically it it balances itself out and it's uh yeah like you said it's it's um there is no hierarchy

and uh that even within the mestadels uh within uh donbar and that's something i only realized when um i was uh doing the write-up with solids boy was that you have uh your um your kin your super family uh clan tribe i think uh that it was in the picture so there are subgroups within

a mestadel setting or in a donbar number of the 150 you have those gradients so it is perfectly possible that you feel more aligned with one certain group more than the rest that are the the groups that can pull apart so you don't need 150 people you can also have a smaller group

but with those people you feel better and um you know and i we we are both already in a small telegram group you know how did we were very we're very close we're very tight and yes yeah that's that's um exactly the feeling that you would want to reach to and that evolves also and that's why

also in the beginning of the show i said um your life evolves uh i had friends before i have now different friends and now i'm evolving more to a bitcoin setting of people whereas the old friends i don't hate them i still talk to them and i see them but they became more to me acquaintances because

i just have different uh values at this moment i would say so i think it's it's because it's uh so free it can be a living organism you don't have to agree with each other that's not natural that everybody would be kumbaya with a billion people together of course yeah it it only becomes

a problem and it becomes violent when you try to impose something onto somebody else so why fight does he know any thoughts on this there's a lot to digest but just to pick up on the last thing about um we don't have to agree i actually agree ironically that we don't have to agree

because um the moment when we all agree like for eternity i think this might be our downfall as humanity because we don't um fortify this resilience that arrives out of the disagreement because if two ideas disagree with each other then we build a synthesis and create a better idea

you know and this is prevalent in the bitcoin community that there are so many different ideas but i think this is why we are such a strong community because we we play out like in the in the safety of fellow bitcoiners like conflicting ideas and we arrive on a standpoint that then we

probably can then agree on on that maybe okay maybe i'm talking shite right now no no it makes sense it makes us you you agree on the points that you agree but it doesn't mean that you have to agree on everything and there where you can find consensus you interact with each other

and there where you don't find consensus you just go to the next group and go somewhere else that's like free trade absolutely yeah as long as both ideas can coexist then it's all good and if one fails then there is still the other one yeah exactly yeah absolutely it's so often that

i communicate with certain bitcoiners and 95% of what we communicate on completely agree we're completely aligned 5% i think it's nonsense but that doesn't matter i'm like that's fine if that's your agreement that if that's the way you look at the world that's absolutely fine the fact is we

agree on these other points and we can communicate on these and we're aligned and and i really enjoy those parts of our communication we just don't discuss or or deal with the other stuff it's like no one's no one's perfectly aligned and to your point there's you know like where you're saying

if we were all to be aligned completely i think we'd be missing something that's absolutely right if you're not challenging ideas we're lazy yeah just imagine we all would be perfectly happy by using blockchain.com as a wallet because we all agree hey this is this is where it's at this is

what we all have to do i think we would all be bankrupt by now completely wrecked so i'm glad that there's a huge diversity of strategies and hardware wallets and software because hackers cannot attack them all at once like they can maybe attack one exchange or one specific hardware wallet like

ledger but there are others out there they're completely safe so far they could attack one citadel but not the meshedadel by the sounds yeah i think that's also what why soul so exported derived this concept with the sun because if you have one citadel and we are all on one island maybe if they just

drop one h bump we are all gone yeah but if we are all over the place and different groups then it's way harder to take down the network it's the same with all the decentralized nodes you can maybe take down one node or one hub but there's still a huge ecosystem that is going on despite yeah

and the straightest numbers because that's the weakness of of uh being a nim and being a solo bitcoiner if they find you you're finished because one man cannot stand on his own but when you have a group where he can fall back on don't need to fight it's just be in the group

of protection if if i'm not there where the the the strike is coming they have lost and that's the most important part is that we are not alone bitcoin is network we have to network with each other and that's where um uh untapped growth and and those initiatives become so important because

if everybody puts their money in in bitcoin only and nobody accepts bitcoin in the shops or or the farms especially that's why the farmers are so important if you're not self-sufficient in living the city and you don't have your own garden or whatever

and you only have bitcoin you're gonna have to sell at some point to be able to feed your family but if you have a bitcoin farmer and he accepts that you're you're selling for food and there's something else than selling for fiat hmm also what i noticed is that bitcoiners they tend to give

discount to each other yeah a plaid rate so to speak oh yeah there is an advantage we have in our community is that we give each other favors we do things for free we help out because we are Australian for a common goal and it also includes giving discounts like i for example i

helped untapped growth with this website did some final touches in the design and i my rate was way lower than i would have normally charged because he is a fellow fellow pleb and i believe in what he's doing and i gave him that discount because it's worth it yeah yeah it's uh like you said it's

partly because you all have a common goal but i actually think on a slightly more selfish way we know if someone fucks someone over in this space everyone will know about it so there is a huge amount of value in the trust and the networks that we build and that is not seen elsewhere in every

other business in every other sector that i've been in and i've dotted around it a lot of them it is generally take what you possibly can take everything from them move on to the next it's a ruthless high-time preference shitty way to go through life and now you come across the bitcoin and it's

the complete opposite is that you are building a reputation you help other people knowing that if they don't help you back they their reputation will also be scuppered so there is a an incentive that is aligned which is we have a common goal and we help each other out because

you know that the people who don't actually reciprocate will not last long and so you can sort of it's almost like you have that backing of a community where you know people would be very short-sighted to mistreat their fellow bitcoiners and so it gives you a little bit of security there

that's actually a point in the in the mesh as well or in the the concept of the chain of trust where i want to organize if we didn't or we want to organize within europe minimitups because like you know Miami big big event a lot of bitcoiners together happy happy but there you don't really

get the know each other as a person whereas in minimitup you might really get to know the people and if i meet with you know and he's a superblock and then you know you know uh meet with max and they say oh superblock and then a friend of yours uh superblock and then that friend of yours wants

to come in my neighborhood you can refer him to you know refers him to me and then i can say okay good you can stay at my place mm-hmm at that point you and zino take accountability for what that

uh third person does and you and zino would or zino gives gives his um the reference because he met you and he trusts you enough to trust your judgment of that other person to say okay he's worth my reputation great point because if the third person would fuck me over and steal everything

in the house okay that's that's the end for for the other people as well and and and that is a chain of trust that you can build upon further yeah when you put it in that in that context of the real world in terms of not bitcoin twitter in terms of really your meeting and you're taking

that trust and the other two are responsible for how you behave that takes us back to a time which and i've only really experienced it in one industry that i've been in which is where a deal is done on a handshake it is done on reputation and if you lie or you you

break that trust you are done in that industry and so that is something that i dream of just constantly i hate solicitors i hate regulations i hate all the bullshit it never really serves most people it only serves people who know how to play the system or have a lot of influence power

or money and most of it's unnecessary and it just it creates so much friction and waste of energy we're talking about permaculture putting the minimum amount of energy in to take the maximum amount out and with most deals that are done these days most of the energy is just wasted with

solicitors and bullshit whereas what we're talking about is it's done on a handshake it is done on trust and it is just done i imagine with you an untapped growth it was just done and there was no problems yeah this is also how i got to help untapped growth because he trusted soul

soul referred me and by proxy untapped growth he also then trusted me he gave me his credentials to the website and i was allowed to make changes and i didn't break the trust because i didn't want like of course i don't want to to push it but also for soul sake like i behaved at the best thank you

but i came naturally but of course like for you i i made sure that this trust i literally said i would trust my entire lightning balance on user yeah that's a very high spot but no but that's that's

how how it should work i otherwise i would not uh reference you as such then i would say okay he's a good bloke and that's it but i have that trust i feel like we had so many discussions already very deep we know things of each other that uh nobody else on bitcoin twitter knows there is a

certain level of trust that we built up and i just want to see that further in the world and it's just exactly that that chain of trust that makes it possible to make a mesh adult for example and because if you are willing up a willing to give up everything that is not just

giving us it's not so easy it's uh opening up your house for somebody it's not so easy yep it's one of the one one great paradox on bitcoin is we have this mantra don't trust very high but then here we are speaking about trusting each other and don't break that one but i think

as headed before being able to include trust gives an advantage it definitely does it's uh is building real alliances building real bonds between people who that you can help they help you and you can

refer to others and you know again in comparison to i mean i'm sure we're in different countries but i'm sure you have the same for most of my life and most of what i deal with for example ensuring my home my vehicle dealing with an agent whether it be in a state agent or any other type

or a bank it's just once you've signed a contract they do the least they possibly can knowing that their attention rate is low and then they care less about their current customers and acquaintances than they do about marketing to find new ones and they spend all this money

and all this time marketing and bullshitting to find new ones while the other ones leave because they've treated them like shit and it seems so inefficient it seems like if the banking system wasn't the way that it is and our fear of culture wasn't the way that it is it would fall flat on

its face straight away what we're describing is a culture that is completely opposite to that which is you go to someone they treat you well they obviously earn their money they it has to be worth it for them and you pay them in sats to the value that they believe is worth it and it's a truly

free market and they're going to try and retain their customers because you know if i go and complain to virgin media for my shitty fucking ins and air that i pay good money for and i've had you know i'm on the phone to them every week and i wait for an hour just to speak to them if that happened

in bitcoin land if this happened in the mesterdale land the straight on the chat groups and saying well hold on cino runs this fucking service he's the isp sort it out like we're all having the problem and it would either be that you would lose the business or a competitor would come up and so

it takes away this kind of walled garden it takes away this protection racket that these large corporations have through either backhanders or literally just putting up regulations that stop competitors from coming up and it solves so many of those problems that are the bane of most

of our lives i think that this whole mesterdale theory deserves some serious thought i think that it is um i think it's a fantastic idea and i think it has real legs and and it's it's actually just literally during this conversation change the way that i'm viewing i know what i want i know

the way i want to live but it's viewing the way that i get there differently it's changing the way that i'm thinking about it because this is a really fucking good idea really fucking good and it needs it needs to get out there people need to be discussing it and and working together i

totally agree yeah how do we do it well come to the meetup where's the meetup uh i will send you the details okay yeah i think we can introduce a little like um there is a discord group we maybe we could put it in the show notes where we are planning to discuss local meetups in the EU at least

and solar solar export we already prepared a lot of channels for each country if we just start finding the people to start discussing how to make it a reality they can happen very quickly the first meetup we currently are talking about in our little group is probably going to take place

in Czech Republic um somewhere in um how's it called where you can make a camping site with a little lake and i i am looking forward to this i hope i can make it and meet those guys in the group it would be great because this is what currently is still missing we know each other

digitally at least we know our voices but being physically present is a whole nother level and there's something i look forward myself i i think there are bitcoiners who had a lot of opportunity to meet um maybe some of the class of 2017 maybe earlier i suppose like

many have met but as i already told you i haven't met anybody and there might be a lot of other bitcoiners who feel just like me and i'm looking forward to actually building real solid relationships with other bitcoiners and the possibilities are are lego right it's it's uh the moment that you know

somebody it physically that you trust enough and uh there are so many possibilities to build further on that and start in a network and the problem with those bigger events is that everybody is gonna flock to those known names and anybody that sees you there you're automatically docked

you're you're a bitcoiner and me as a family person i do not want to be known that much as a bitcoiner um i can defend myself but i i would be terrified for my family to be in problems even though i'm a poor bitcoiner in bitcoin terms i'm a poor guy uh yeah it's it's uh i'm looking more

forward to to see the people that we are planning to meet now then i would be looking forward to meet the PRR or the the uh Saffidian however i'm in awe of the all of them uh i think it's local plebs that that are gonna make the difference the networking is gonna make the difference in the

world yeah yeah look guys this has been exactly the conversation that i have wanted it is really important that bitcoiners can create the freedoms that they want to have and they can do it in a way where we help each other everyone has different bits of expertise you guys have taught me a lot

just from having the conversations that i've had and the ones today where it's got me thinking about things i wouldn't otherwise and so many plebs have so much information that they can share and together the more that we share that the more efficient we're gonna be the more we can

help each other the more we can have this circular economy the better and um you know we discussed obviously the idea of uh the european meetups and that things operate a little bit differently here to america i'm sort of trying to look forward to the next show you know we discussed maybe doing

something monthly which i think would be really cool and i'm thinking maybe the next show should be a little bit more european focused given that you're doing these europe meetups given that all three of us are based here and looking at expanding possibly on this idea because i want to keep it

free flowing i don't want to keep it too structured and we might go off course and come back uh you know over the months but do you guys think maybe it would be a good idea to do something around this mester del and looking at maybe getting someone on to discuss or a couple of people on to discuss

maybe an idea around land acquisition building regulation the self sustainable idea and this whole idea of the network community network and and how it could possibly be that people can work together to to achieve these freedoms that we desire or do you think that's going to be maybe

too much for one episode and we should be a little bit more specific on the next one well um tino and me we were discussing this a little bit before the show actually and um one person who is uh helping me out in reviewing the uh the article for uh citadel 21 as

well is poor bangan and he's actually uh uk i spoke to him the other day he's a fucking legend of a man he is super yeah we both agree he is on he has his own forest and he's um building lumber and he like of course he's very happy i guess about the lumber crisis right now but i remember

a specific tweet that he is also offering a pleb discount uh of lumber to fellow plebs if they reach out to him just to show his business a bit i think he makes quality lumber and he also is very knowledgeable like we were discussing one one time like we had a little group voice chat

and he knows a lot of stuff like about strategizing and how to prepare for like certain downfalls like a communication and such and i think we can learn a lot from him about becoming more resilient exactly good idea good idea one he's on a roll

the moment when we're calling and and he is on a roll i just stop talking and listen the entire time out open and just enjoy the ride it's it's it's a solo audiobook he's it's just great get him on the plot man okay i i have actually tried uh i if he's up for it i would love to have

him on i chatted him a little bit the other day he gave me some great info i've tried to shill his business to a few builders that i know to pass that on and he does seem very knowledgeable and yeah proper proper chat so that would be awesome if we can get him on and i think that is the right

man for that sort of um that sort of area and a starting point so let's try and make that happen behind the scenes and then i i think also it would be useful to maybe allow anyone on twitter to jump in with other ideas that maybe for future shows maybe for this one or any questions that

they have on on the upcoming one and we've got a month to prepare for it so we we've got some time but i think it would be cool because this is if we want to mesh today all we want as many people involved in this as possible as many ideas and for people to reach out and and help each other

i totally agree europe really needs to step up its game okay sorry america this is going europe focused for now uh at least for now it doesn't mean you can't come on the show and and share your expertise in your um specific fields that would be fantastic but i i think that

would be good and and i think it would be cool viewing it through the lens of of what what we're looking for as well because i personally know that it's something i i want to do see you know i know it's something you've already started solex i know that you're sort of halfway there but you've got

other ideas and we've all got these dreams that we want to fulfill and and now it's time to make them happen so we're all in europe it kind of makes sense to me that we take it that direction yeah it's especially because we're in awe of some american players not in the list on top the growth

is doing such amazing things it truly inspires me and in europe we have a completely different situation with the all small countries within europe and even in the country's smaller patches of ground a big differential between spain and norway for example so there's a huge range within

europe in and and you know it is time to get more organized within europe as well i think you know something that the situation europe is lost but i like to disagree like if we give up the fight now and just move all to america i think that would be terrible so we should build something beautiful

here and show that um europe can be much better uh collection of countries the borders are only for for politicians within europe that's right that the borders are there it's not not for our benefit yeah we can do better we can we can do much better so all right let's reach out i i'll i'll try and

reach out to ben guns if if he'll come on the next one we will spam him as well perfect let's all yeah we'll be smooth talking and yeah yeah let's all really pressure him into it yeah and uh and look it'd be really cool if you guys want to join as well let's keep the conversation going

let's keep thinking of ideas um and let's make some changes i love this i love where it's gone i love this mecheredel idea i think it makes much more sense than my ideas a couple of hours ago and that's what this is all about is um refining our ideas and moving towards a better future so is there

anything that we haven't covered that either of you really specifically wanted to cover or are you happy to roll those ideas over to the next one and we keep going yeah if you want to go into any topic more specifically um i'm happy to come on again and talk more death to the best

of my knowledge perfect i think uh you know i personally would love to hear more on the permaculture stuff and what you've gone through finding your land because i sort of derailed us a little bit so apologies for that but um yeah i would love to hear more on that so we'll definitely do that

and solace um cino is my hero and um it's glad to be able to be with you guys here um yeah i'm also looking forward to hear more of the permaculture it's i didn't know it was more than uh gardening so also the house and everything and it opened another or yeah the rabbit hole was there already

but it is now a more gaping hole inviting me deeper and deeper so um yeah it's so deep so deep i have not seen the end of it yet there might not be one oh i'm really glad to have you there it sounds like it is a rabbit hole that goes as deep as bitcoin and that is endless but it's

a fascinating thing to jump into and um it's incredibly important it just makes so much sense from the very very tiny amount that i understand about it it seems like a fantastic way to do things and it really seems like a more logical way to do things than we currently are so i'm definitely

going to uh badger you and find out about that on the next pod and um yeah if you guys fancy it let's all jump on the next one and let's open up to twitter anyone who wants to send us some ideas please do so but this has been fantastic it's been more than i could have possibly hoped for

and absolutely no i made the right decision getting you to on it has been brilliant and i really really look forward to the next ones and building this meshedodel idea around so thank you thank you thank you do it's been a lot of fun same here right guys i'll close it out now and uh we'll have a quick chat offline perfect