EP87 Bitcoin podcast with @BITVOLT7 & @Coinicarus

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero. Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!

Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail, but what if everyone's wrong?

What if it's the system that is doomed to fail? Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the world. Join me as I speak to some of the finest people in the space, and deliver to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back, everyone. Today's episode is with Phil and Nico from Simply Bitcoin. I'm sure you've already seen their videos, but if you haven't, it's worth checking it out. And I reached out to these guys after I realized we had the same sponsor.

We have crypto cloaks, and I thought it's well worth getting to know them. And I'm very glad I did. They were proper Bitcoiners, and really interesting conversation. Really enjoyed getting to know them.

As I said, crypto cloaks is my new sponsor, so I want to give them a shout out, and for anyone who is building a node or wanting to hide some hardware, or they want something cool of their office, then crypto cloaks.com is the place to go.

They've got really high quality products. They've got a fantastic team, and they are Bitcoin only. So crypto cloaks.com. Next up is coin floor UK. They have been sponsoring me from almost the beginning of this show.

They have a fantastic team, and if you're in the UK, there really is nobody better if you're going to use a KYC exchange, then it's really worth looking into these guys. The thing I really like about it is that they will actually show you that they're not re-hypoticating your Bitcoin.

I don't think there's anyone else out there who's doing it. So go and check them out at coin floor UK. Enjoy the show and reach out if you have any questions. Hey guys, how you doing? Hey, what's happening?

Can you hear me okay? I can hear you loud and clear. I'm not sure about Niko yet. Could you guys hear me? Yeah, I can hear you as well. Yeah, hold on. Let me change because of my mic saying that it's using my computer mic and not my mic.

I just don't know how to change it. I've never used this program before. There'll be a little thing where it says mic default, and that will show you which mic. And then it may be that you can't change it mid recording.

Let's have a look. Should I join? Let me. All right, I'll be right back. I'll be right back. All right, cool. Man, thank you so much for having us on, by the way. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure.

I saw that you also had the same sponsor with crypto cloaks, and I actually been meaning for a long time. You know what it's like with so much amazing content in the space. It's kind of like keeping up with it's hard.

And I know you guys have been doing your thing for some time and very well respected. And I thought, right, it's about time I catch up and just hear from you guys and learn from you guys because I know you've been doing this for a while.

Man, I really appreciate it. That means a lot. Just so you know, your podcast is very highly regarded. So, and I'm not just saying that because you invited us, I'm like, you know, I, you know, when you frequent enough different Bitcoin or groups, like everybody loves your material man.

So shout out. We've got some crazy fuckers in this space. That's right. They do right. People are insane. They are. It's, it's so much fun. I mean, I haven't been doing this for that long, but I feel like it fits.

It's the first time I feel like I've fit in any community and people just seem to be very open and honest and say what they feel and yeah, it's a lot of fun. So yeah, absolutely pleasure to have you guys on.

And I've been checking out some of what you've been doing. I plan to do it yesterday, but had a shitload of editing to do. So I was sat up all night doing that. And then I was like, oh, quickly get, get, get a little bit through what you guys are doing.

And I love the YouTube stuff. It's really, really cool. Like I like that it's short and sharp and I feel like someone can watch that and just know what's happening in the space at that time.

So how did you guys get into doing that and how long has that been going for? Oh man. So what we started doing that, I should probably wait though. Until Niko comes back because he's, I'm here.

I'm here. I joined in silently. I didn't want to scrub the background. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, because it just shows you as guests. Okay. Anyways, yeah. So Niko, man, why don't you, why don't you tell the story because really you're the, I think you're the, you're the brains behind it.

You know, you just, you just asked me to come along for the ride. So let's tell them, man, I'm the brains. No, no, no, simply Bitcoin is, is Phil and I, it wouldn't be it. The show would be, it would be a disaster, if it was just me at least, just, you know, because I'm kind of a hothead.

But yeah, man, look, I, I was kind of the Bitcoin content space is heavily saturated, right? And it's heavily saturated in long format style conversations, which is good, like it's a good thing.

Right. However, if you have a long day at work, right? And you just want to take it easy, you just want to disconnect at the end of the day. It's very hard to sit through a whole podcast, right?

So we created the show in a way where not only are you, not only do you get informed, right? But you also laugh. You're entertained. It's very easy to consume, right? And we did that totally on purpose, right?

Right from the beginning. That was our design. That's what we, that's what we set out to be surprisingly, Phil and I had no idea. The community received it very well, right? So we're very happy with that.

We're very happy how the community has received us. And man, it's, it's honestly a blessing just to make content about something that you like every single day. And not only do we make content, we have a lot of fun doing it, right?

We're laughing the entire time, right? So it's a blessing. It's awesome and I'm super lucky to find Phil. He was the first person that I asked because I, I also do him a podcast as well, right?

And you know, you, you got to meet a lot of people. You got to meet a lot of Bitcoiners. But it needed to be a specific type of person, right? Or just it wasn't going to work out, right? And as soon as I, I, I, I had the conversation with Phil, I think I told my girlfriend then I was like, this is, this is the guy.

This is the perfect dude. And I ended up being right. It was perfect. So I, I reached out to Phil and I was like, hey, do you want to do this show? And he's like, absolutely. And then we had absolutely no idea what we were doing at first.

But you know how things are if you, the, the longer you stick to it, it just comes together. And man, it just, it just worked out. You know, it's just one of those things. Our first step.

Oh, go ahead. No. So I was, all I was going to say is it's funny how we gravitate to certain people particularly, like after an interview, after an interaction, there are just some people you're just like, ah, I need to work with this person.

And that sounds like that was just instant for you too, which is cool. It was perfect because, you know, I, I, I am from Miami, dude, I'm, I'm Hispanic. We tend to be over the top, right?

We're, we're, we're intense people, right? And that specific personality type is not, it's, there's nothing wrong with that. But when you're doing something every single day, that's, you know, that you kind of have to find the right person for that, you know, and, and Phil, you know, Phil, you know, he's more calm, he's wiser, he's older.

So he really balances me out. So yeah, man, it's, it's, I'm super happy and I'm super lucky to have found Phil and find myself in this situation. Yeah, I just wanted to add, I think one of the keys also is that we, we don't take ourselves seriously, you know, like there's, you know, I think that that's kind of one of the issues

in the space, you know, like people want to come across as like, you know, kind of like these all knowing oracles or these, you know, these points of reference and that's really nice and everything like that.

But the reality is we're in unchartered territory. Okay. Nobody really understands what the implications of Bitcoin are. People are writing all kinds of philosophical stuff. They're creating stories, they're creating, you know, like fantasy storyboards.

I mean, people really are, are just, you know, we are in the, the total exploration phase. So for people to just come out and, and pretend like they're these, you know, these knowers of things, I think it's funny and, and I think Nico also thinks it's funny.

And as a result, you know, we don't end up taking ourselves too seriously. So people get to laugh with us and they get to learn with us. That's very refreshing. I, I like that style. It's too much of that, like you were explaining, like, there's too many know-it-alls, too many people who just look down the noses at everybody else.

And it's like an arrogance that I just find. Yeah, it is funny. It's just like, guys, no one fucking knows it all. This is like you say, this is right at the beginning. None of us know what's going to happen.

We all sort of, I think we all know it's going to be big, whatever's happening, but we have no idea where this really goes, or how it plays out. It's just exciting to watch and there's probably more, there's a lot more sense in just listening rather than talking and learning from all the smart people in the space.

And that, that's what I'm trying to do is just like sit and have conversations with really smart people who know stuff I don't know. And it's a lot of fun. Absolutely. I mean, it's the humbling stance, you know, people sit there and sometimes look at humility and think of it as a bad thing.

But at the end of the day, humility allows a person to open their mind, right? It allows them to empty the cup so that the cup can be filled. And when a person sits there with the full cup and they act like it all the time, it kind of ruins it, right?

It doesn't allow that proper exchange. I'm sorry, Niko, you were going to say something. No, just to add to your points Phil, I think you're absolutely right. You know, I think one of the benefits of Bitcoin is, you know, that it's so, it just destroys, you know, all these preconceived notions, right?

You know, the example that I always give is, you know, the legacy finance guys, they dress up in a suit and they go there and, you know, they, you know, they act, right? They might not verbally tell you, but they tell you indirectly that they're better than you.

That's essentially what they're doing, right? And you kind of are feeling that that elitism from established Bitcoiners, Bitcoin content creators in the space, unfortunately, some of them, right?

So I think it's refreshing that you see two individuals that are just, man, like, we're just there having a good time, we're telling you, right? It's so much easier to consume that every day, right?

You don't have to try. You can leave it in the background. You're going to laugh. You're going to have a good time. And at the end of it, you're going to take some information with you, right?

So, you know, I think, I think that I think it's necessary. This isn't an original idea. I just saw that the shit coin channels use a very similar method, but they use it towards pumping bags.

So they'll talk about the price mostly, but they'll use the catchy thumbnails, they'll use the titles, you know, they'll use, they'll use things like that. So I agree with their method. I think their method is extremely effective.

I just think that their content is crap, right? So what if you take their method, right? You don't talk about the price. You talk about content, you talk about Bitcoin culture, you talk about news, right?

You talk about fails, the favorite part of my show is just the filth completely ripping shit coiters to shreds. But it's, you know, it's, it's a, it's special, man. And, you know, I'm super blessed to be in this situation.

And man, it's just been a hell of a ride so far. And I'm super excited. Like Phil has been saying, I'm super exciting to see where this, where the sales are particularly in Georgia. Does it mark Cuban you had on a, on a recent one for his fails with the doge a coin bit?

Absolutely. I can't. So, so I have a, okay, so look, I've got real gripe with, with Mark Cuban, okay? And besides, yes, besides like the general, you know, the, the general stupidity, overall stupidity of Mark Cuban, for me, it, it's a little bit more personal because when I was

a shit coiner, okay, I, I fell for his, for, for the ICO that he was, that he was backing him and Ashton Kutcher. Excellent. No, no, not as bad. Don't get me wrong. Still total crap. Unicorn gold.

Okay. And it was going to be this, this gaming token and all this stuff. And I read about it. And back then, you know, all I was doing was reading all these different white papers and totally buying up all this bullshit tech narrative, you know, and the, you know, like all of

it, the unit bias, the tech narrative, the, the partnership parade, all of that garbage. And you know, like for me, I, you know, when I saw what happened and I got burned by it, right? And I saw that this person just completely disappeared.

I, I realized that I had been had, you know, and I was like, okay, so for me, like when I see him out there now talking about how he'd rather hold banana coin than Bitcoin. Okay. But then, but then he goes off and shills, you know, doge coin because he's holding a whole bunch of bags of them really just to accumulate more Bitcoin.

I find that, you know, like it's, it's cringe and, you know, with somebody that has that big of a following, he should, he should know better. He really should. And that much money. Right.

So I often speak to people about this and I'm like, it's clear that these people are sociopaths that they haven't got some, they've got something not quite right with them because if I had the sort of money, or even a hundredth of the sort of money that these kind of guys

have who are lying and pumping bags and doing all this deceitful, disgusting shit, I just think like, why you could, you could have like such a nice life for the rest of your life and be a good person, there's absolutely no need to do any of this stuff.

It's just that they are lunatics, it seems like why just go diving and like fuck around around the world and just enjoy your life and your family and have good food. Like, what the fuck are they doing?

It's so weird. I mean, oh, sorry, Nico, I just wanted to say to me, they're, they're narcissistic sociopaths, but Nico, go on. Yeah, just to add to Phil's point, they're definitely narcissistic.

Max Kaiser calls them ego maniacs. I think it's the system, the actual fiat system itself incentivizes bad behavior, right? Like, and in Bitcoin, it's very different, right? Bitcoin, the way it's architected, it actually incentivizes good behavior, right?

And if you start, you know, big dishonest, you start whatever, you have this decentralized immune system on Twitter that just completely goes after you, right? No matter who you are, no matter what, you know, if you, whether you have, there was a joke the other day, whether you have a PhD, whether you're a well respected economist,

we do not care. If you start lying, if you start playing, you know, if you start, you know, consciously trying to hurt others, as is the case with Mark Cuban, man, we'll call you out on your bullshit, right?

So I think it's the system, I think that there's this very famous, like Bitcoin adage. It's like, you don't change Bitcoin, Bitcoin changes you. I think that once a lot of people start going to, you know, instead of relying on, look, I'm going to save, I have $10,000 in the bank.

Once they start saving in Bitcoin, I think that you'll, you'll start to see the best in people rather than the worst in people. Have you guys found a change in, in you since getting involved in Bitcoin?

You can, you can go first, Nico, if you want. Dude, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, it's changed. Man. So, um, Bitcoin essentially saved my life. Um, gave me purpose again. Um, I wasn't doing so hot.

Um, and because I was doing so hot, actually, um, I gravitated towards Bitcoin because I wanted to get out of my situation. So, um, and, and my personal example, absolutely, and, and it's, you know, again, it incentivizes you to save, right?

So, you know, it incentivizes you to be frugal, right? Um, and it incentivizes you to care about your reputation. Uh, I think it's, my reputation is very important to me. Um, and, and yeah, man, and I think, I think that once someone does the full transition, they're not a fiat Bitcoiner, right?

They're not in Bitcoin, essentially, to get fiat out of it. They're in Bitcoin because they think it's a better money. It's a better way to save. I think that you'll start to see, um, you know, it sounds very, it sounds, it sounds, uh, you know, outlandish right now, but you'll start to see a better world, right?

Uh, maybe, you know, 10, 15, 20 years from now, right? Uh, I truly believe that. Um, for me, I, I've always had an attitude of, of discord towards the system. And, uh, so I, I, I did realize, uh, pretty early, I mean, for me anyways, uh, compared to my peers, I did realize early on that there was something wrong with the money.

And I realized that my job alone, um, wasn't going to, uh, uh, be able to, let's say, help me create the type of life that I'm looking for. Um, so I, I got very disillusioned with, with just the system as a whole.

And I was like, there's no, you know, I hope, uh, is it okay if we swear? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Oh, okay. Well, I was going to say, like, I mean, there's, you know, there was, you know, there was no fucking way that I was going to, um, you know, get to where I wanted to go.

And, and unfortunately, um, I realized that the, the system that we had was, was this, this constantly expanding wheel, you know, we're like hamsters on this wheel and the wheel gets bigger and bigger and we have to pedal faster and faster to keep the same pace.

So I became very disillusioned and I wanted no, like to me, like gold is, I just didn't really care about gold. Um, it doesn't do anything for me. My father works with metal. So I've, you know, since a young age, always been, uh, you know, very much around gold, silver, palladium, all of these things.

And I understand their value propositions and whatnot. And they just, it just didn't do it for me. And I, I found the world to me anyways, you know, besides my family and my loved ones, to be a very, you know, kind of like dull place, you know, because here we are using

this money that constantly gets the value that we have no control over. And so my whole plan was that I was just going to, you know, um, buy dividend, uh, stocks that pay increasing dividends and just continually buy them, right?

Throughout my life until eventually I create a source of income that will, um, hopefully keep up with the pace of inflation and, you know, uh, that, that's pretty much what I was looking at.

And when I found all this to say, I was not excited, right? Like to me, it's like, okay, well, this is like giving up. Okay. And then I found Bitcoin. So I am definitely going to say that it changed my life because it made me a lot more hopeful about the future.

And it made me hopeful about people again, um, because I, I felt that, you know, at that point that everybody was in the same rut and okay, we've all come to accept this shitty money and we've all come to accept this, you know, this monetary poverty and this loss of purchasing power and what are we going to do?

So for me, this gave me like renewed faith in humanity. Yeah. That seems to be the, uh, a lot of Bitcoiners were in that sort of, uh, headspace and what you had was you were far, far more ahead than the average person because you'd actually worked out the money's fucked and the, the before Bitcoin, you're obviously saying like, Oh, okay.

Well, I'm going to look into stocks that pay dividends and then at least that's the some sort of hack, but it's only a hack to stand still. It's not a hack to move forwards. And that's pretty fucking depressing.

Like obviously it's depressing because you realize that, um, that the further that you look into things, the, the whole hierarchical system that we find ourselves in is corrupt beyond belief.

It's just very well masked, especially in the Western culture. And you know, uh, people, people just don't see it because it's very well practiced. Sometimes in other countries, it's a little bit more visible, but certainly in the UK and I'd imagine in America as well, like these things are, the corruption's very slick and

therefore once you work that out, it's, it's easy to be just just think, Oh, fuck it. I don't want to trust people at all because look at what's happening around me and I love this, uh, positivity that comes from the Bitcoin space, which you rightly say is the complete opposite.

It is completely different and people see hope with it. And that's an exciting place to be. I think that's why so many of us are drawn in and we don't come out again. Actually, um, I just want to touch on the, the positivity aspect because you'll see this

a lot from like, uh, you know, from, from, you know, Bitcoin, you know, uh, Bitcoin haters and, you know, no coiners and stuff like that, that like we're, we're sitting there, you know, we're, we're like the end of the world type people like everything's got to end so that Bitcoin thrives.

This just goes to show the, first of all, how early we are number one, number two, how ignorant people are because we are not the end of the world types. We are very hopeful about the future because we can now, we, we now have a chance to base our activities on a sound money principle, which changes the game.

So I, I really don't understand, it frustrates me the, the, the people that think that we're not positive. And Nico, were you in a similar sort of position mentally prior to Bitcoin? Had you worked out the money was fucked or like where were you at?

Dude, I was, man, I was a turning 24 years old. I was in a very bad place in my life, just some family issues and it's just, it was bad. I would say it was rock bottom for me. I wasn't really thinking about the money because I didn't have any money.

But I knew that I, I, I wanted to get out of my situation. And I think that Bitcoin attracts you with greed, right? That's how it gets you hooked. Once you're hooked, then you start to understand, once you start learning, then you start to understand that it's, it's much more than number go up, right?

It's much more than that. But I was, I was initially attracted to Bitcoin because of greed, man, that's, that's why I got in. I wanted to get out of the situation that I was in. I knew the system was broken because of things that have happened to my family.

And you know, I, I, you know, it wasn't totally the 2008 financial crisis that destroyed my family, but that was a main cause that, that kind of started the domino effect. So I already was very disillusioned when, you know, you have a, at the time you had Obama, you know, he's, he's a progressive president.

And the fact that he didn't put any central banker or any banker in jail after the 2008 financial crisis, that should tell you everything you need to know, right? And the fact that the fact that they got bailed out and the people that build them out was the average Joe, you know, is the everyday citizen with their tax dollars, man, it's,

it's a clear example. And we're not even done. Like right now what you're seeing with the money printing, like the, the out of control money printing, that really started in 2008, you know, like that was the, that was like the beginning of it, you know, and that hasn't really stopped.

You know, I think that we're reaching now, you know, an end stage, of course, it's my opinion. Right. Um, but, but yeah, man, it's, it's, I think that Bitcoin attracts people. The first people that it attracts are people that are already disillusioned and have already disrupt, uh, distrust, distrusting of the system, right?

So in my particular case, you know, I got screwed by the system, right? And I wanted to get out of the system. And in Phil's case, you know, he also filled disillusioned because, you know, he, he, you know, he wanted to do his investments.

He didn't feel like there was a way out. You didn't see hope in that way, right? So you, you find a way, you know, and then, and once you find Bitcoin, you know, initially you don't know what the hell it is, but the longer you stay in it, the longer you stay

in the rabbit hole, the, the more you, the deeper you go, the more you realize not only are you right, you're absolutely right. You know, so it's, it's man, it's amazing. It's amazing. Like, like you said, actually about the type of people that are built for this.

It's so true. Almost everyone I speak to is either the majority are they've been fucked by the system. They've had real hardships in life. They are looking at the world in a completely different way to others and haven't quite found their fit there, which is why I say like the ungovernable misfits, you know, they

are the misfits in the world. And they don't back down. They don't sit down and they probably had problems at school and in jobs and everything else. There's something that's wrong, you're going to say it, and that's not really accepted in mainstream culture.

The other small percentage of people who are in this space are imposters and they don't really get it. They get to a point where they understand the number go up technology. They understand that.

They're like, oh, it's a scarce assay. Yeah, that's cool. But what they very much miss as far as I can see with all those people and normal people would say, oh, they're the smartest people in the space.

They're the people from the banking system, they're the people from hedge funds, they'll understand this, but they completely underestimate the network Bitcoin. They only look at the token Bitcoin.

And that's the really interesting bit for me. And I think for most Bitcoiners I speak to is like, what's this thing going to do? Where does it start to change things next? Because it's not just about a wealth transfer.

It's about freedom, right? Yeah, it really is. This actually goes back to the talk that we had where we had Alex Gladstein on this week as our special guest on simply Bitcoin. And he's talking about how Bitcoin is a Trojan horse for freedom.

That's exactly it. I mean, and we don't really understand the true implications of what freedom enabling technology is because as of right now, the freedom enabling technology that we've had, I will argue, has been insular.

It's freedom enabled, but it has a ceiling, okay? And I say that in the sense that because our base money is garbage, okay, we are always trapped by the central bankers and they're, you know, they're greed.

So anytime they want to disempower us, they can just keep printing. And we know that. But for some reason, tons of people don't accept that. And now how does this, how does this limit us, right?

So the people that have access to these fiat funds, they're the ones that get to develop the technology. They're the ones that get to, you know, quote unquote, make the breakthroughs and whatnot.

So at the end of the day, whether we want to accept it or not, everything that we have right now is being allowed by these central bankers. It is by their virtue that we have these, that we have these technologies because they are the creators of the money.

Once we take that out of their hands, the creativity gets to go back into the network to the people. And yes, everybody can be creative right now, but think about it, everybody can be creative right now.

What do they have to do? Well, you want to start a business. Where are you going to go? You're going to go to a bank. What are you going to do? You're going to go get a loan. You're going to take a look at your business and decide whether it's viable or not, somebody

that works for the bank, somebody that's been brainwashed into a specific method of how a business and a product should work. So you see what I'm saying? Like it's all, you know, we may not see the entire mechanisms, but they run very deep and they affect us.

They affect us to our core. So what this is going to change, this is going to lift, I believe that Bitcoin is going to lift that power structure from the technology which will enable the, not just the Bitcoin technology, but the technologies that grow up around Bitcoin to truly enable freedom.

Yeah, there's a lot going to happen, isn't there? What an exciting time to be around. What an exciting time to be alive and to be at the beginning of this around a bunch of people who are incredibly creative and smart and are most likely going to become quite wealthy.

So they're going to be able to influence the changes in this world rather than a group of elite psychopaths, it is creatives and people who want freedom. The way the world can change is just so exciting.

It's man, it's not only is it incredibly exciting, dude, it's, it's, I think that, I think that as the human race in general, it's very hard to understand. But the implications that we'll have on society are just, you know, like you can't even wrap your head around like right now, for example, I'm originally for Venezuela, right?

So, you know, whenever, when anyone says, you know, socialism or communism, I immediately a red flag comes in my head, I'm like, you're, you have no idea what you're asking for. And you know, in the US right now, it's, you know, it's, it's become quite popular.

And with good reason, right, the wealth inequality in the US is freaking crazy. But what a lot of people don't understand, right, is that the economic system is working perfectly fine. In fact, it's the best one there is, it's the best one historically that has ever existed.

Socialism never works, right? So they're right to be pissed off. But what they don't understand is that the, the, the economic system is working. What's broken is the money. The money is broken.

And because the money is broken, it's creating all these economic hardships and people's, you know, immediate reaction is like, this needs to change and they're completely right, you know, but, but they're looking in the right, they're, they're looking in the wrong place.

And I think that it's our job, all of us as, as Bitcoin content creators to, to help as much of these people as possible, you know, to, to show them that there's a better way. Because I haven't met one person that doesn't have something to lose, right?

Because of course, my, my investment bank friends, they hate Bitcoin. But anyone else that's, that doesn't have something to lose because of Bitcoin, man, when they get it, they absolutely love it.

And they understand what it is I'm talking about and why I am so passionate, why I'm so crazy and why I am the way I am, right? But it's, it's, it's, it's scary because these are the same people that are going to push the climate narrative, that are going to push, you know, a theory on proof of stake.

It's not, you know, burning any energy. It's, you know, all the bullshit, you know, they're, they're going to peddle and they're going to peddle that hard because it fits the narrative, they're narrative, right?

And yeah, man, it's just our job as Bitcoiners not to fight back. It's just to tell the truth, you know, just look, this is the reality. You know, Bitcoin doesn't use, it uses excess energy, it uses energy that was already going to waste, right?

That's the truth. Like, here are the facts. And, and I think that it's like trying to stop the internet, man. You know, that that's, that's, if you're trying to stop Bitcoin, that's what you're trying to stop.

You're trying to stop the internet. Bitcoin's inevitable at this point, the price is just catching up. If you were to present the facts around Bitcoin and the facts around the current financial system, there is no question that this is a better system and better for the world.

Like, there's just, it's provable, but people don't like facts. People don't like to think. And I think a lot of that comes probably from the education system. It's a very, very well-designed machine to make people remember they have good memories,

the ones who fit in the boxes from the education system go on to the better jobs because they can regurgitate information that doesn't make sense. And the ones that question it, get in trouble, don't fit in, and that sort of pushes the way that the world works.

I think that putting across this information to people, and there are so many things you have to put the information across, like, I'm constantly saying to people, firstly looking to Bitcoin, secondly, like think about putting a face mask on and getting a fucking vaccine

with all the stuff that's going on, you know, consider the fact that maybe freedom of movement is more important than something that kills 0.02% of the population, possibly, you know, even with the numbers massaged.

And just, you know, read a book, look at history, think, certainly in the UK, they don't want to. They just go, well, I've read the news. I've seen the science, I've heard the talking heads, and that's it.

Have you guys found a good way of explaining to no-coiners about these sort of ideas? Have you found a style that works particularly well, or is it just shotgun fire and, you know, 1 in 1,000 gets it?

The method that I use, it's quite effective, man, I buy a bunch of hardware wallets, you know, like, literally 50 of them, and I'll store them, you know. And when I meet somebody, what I usually do is I give them Bitcoin, and I give them a hardware wallet, you know, that's what I do.

And I would say around 50% of them, it works. That's crazy. That's quite easy, generous. And 50% of them, no, it's not though. You think it is, but it's not, because what I'm doing is pumping my own bag, right?

Think about it, right? I'm orange-pilling them, right, and I promise them, listen, I'm going to give you this for free, but you have to promise me something. They always do. You have to teach two other people what I taught you, right?

And some of them do, or I would say like 10, 20%, right? But if you zoom out and you look at on the grand scale of things, right, it just becomes a multiplying effect, right, because they're going to tell, they have a good experience with Bitcoin, then they're going to tell their family members, and then they're going to

tell their family members, and they're going to tell their family members, right? And I promise myself that because Bitcoin gave me purpose again, because Bitcoin seriously, like saved my life, right?

I always promised that I would give back my hash rate, and that I would always educate, right? And I would always give back. That was like my contribution. That's what I was going to give back, right?

So yeah, man, what about you, Phil? I have had varying unsuccessful situations. I find orange-pilling is one of the most difficult things, because number one, I'm not a good salesman. Number two, I find it very personal.

I think that every person, it goes to eat when it's pitched, when it's explained to them, it has to be explained in a way that is meaningful to them. And that's where it becomes, for me, anyways, very, you know, like very challenging.

Most of the people that, I mean, don't get me wrong. I've been quite successful in orange-pilling, let's say, the majority of the people in my direct circle. But let's say like some of my friends, I will explain Bitcoin to them.

They will understand Bitcoin at a surface, a very general surface level, and they will immediately degrade into shit-coining. So because right away, they will look at it and go, that's expensive.

And then, you know, why don't you talk to me about Ethereum, or, you know, what is this? And I kid you not, man, my boss, okay, so check this out, okay? So like, my boss at work, who saw me go through my shit-coining, knows how much money I lost, okay?

Knows like, I explain to him, like, because he's also a friend. So like, I've explained to him about how they are scams. I've been able to dismantle all the scams. And this whole time, he's buying Bitcoin, and then all of a sudden, like three months ago, he's like, what about Doge, I'm like, fuck off, man, honestly, I'm like, you know,

you know everything that I just explained to you, I go, and you're going to talk to me about shit-coins. I'm like, you know what, man? I'm like, you're going to get wrecked. I'm like, do what you want.

Yeah, at this point, I don't even try to orange people, orange people, I don't even try to orange pill people. I actually avoided altogether. And if people talk to me about Bitcoin, I'll be, again, I'll be reserved, like, unless a person actually is trying to pull and extract information, I'm not really going to push for it.

It's probably wise. It's harder. I've started going more that way as well, but it's more the things that surround it. So like, I'm sure you guys have found the same, that once you dig deep enough and the more time you spend in this space, it shapes your views on most things, like, there's not a lot that it doesn't touch.

And so it tends to be more the conversations that aren't directly about Bitcoin that catch me out. It's more, I'll have to say something where someone's talking about finance in general, someone sat here talking to me about property and that they know that it's going to be running up for the next couple of years.

And this is my theory on why, and I'm just thinking, well, that's wrong. And it's very difficult to sit and keep your mouth shut for everything, because almost everything that is discussed, in my opinion, is wrong.

And so is that something you guys struggle with as well, or is that just me in my own little weird bubble? Dude, I can't relate to what I call my fiat friends or my real-life friends or the friends that I better set, friends that I grew up with, because we're operating on different wavelengths.

We just are. And it seems to me that the people that I get along with the most are Bitcoiners, just because, man, it's like, we're awake. We're awake. We see it's crazy, because I talk to someone who still hasn't been an orange pill, then man, I see them as a sleep.

I see them as a peg in the wheel of a system. It's crazy, man. It's startling. And I've talked to other Bitcoiners, and they tell me the same thing. They tell me, it's like, look, I can't relate to my normie friend.

They call him normie, and they're normie friends anymore. And it's true, because it changes your behavior, right? My normie friends are still going out, they're going to clubs, they're trying to live that lifestyle.

And that's what fiat incentivizes, right? Because you're constantly losing value through this hidden tax called inflation, you're incentivized, whether you're aware of it or not, to spend it.

Or it forces you to become an investor, right? And it forces you to kind of have to learn about the financial system just to maintain your wealth, right? Whereas Bitcoin, you could do whatever you want.

You want to be a surfer, you want to be an artist, you want to be whatever. Do that, you know, and then any money that you make, just put it into Bitcoin. You no longer have to be an investor.

You no longer have to get into a field that you're not really passionate about, right? And there's side effects of that as well, right? You look at like the, you know, the financial industry, specifically like investment banks.

They're much, much bigger than what they need to be. And they're much bigger because fiat forces people, wealthy people in particular, to have to invest because that's the only way you're going to store your value.

You know, gold sucks. Try buying a million dollars with the gold. That's very heavy, okay? And then try getting rid of that million dollars, right? It's not an easy process, right? So man, it's just, it's, I think that, you know, and you're going to see this very quickly.

I think that within 15, you know, 15 years, the world as we know it today is going to be completely different. And the only analogy that I could point out is back in the 2000s when the internet was just, you know, coming about, did you know that there was going to be a website that

you could access every single YouTube, I mean, sorry, every single video that has ever existed? You know, did you know that there was going to be a place that you could access it on? Did you know that there was going to be a website where you can communicate with people worldwide?

You had no idea that was even possible, right? So that's kind of like where we are with Bitcoin. And you look at how much the internet has changed society, right? From where it began to where we are now, right now we're talking through the internet, Bitcoin is on the internet, YouTube is on the internet.

So everything we do is on the internet, right? So Bitcoin is going to do the same thing. But it's not only going to do it to communication and, you know, groups and entertainment, it's going to do it to finance, it's going to do it to money, right?

And I have no idea, and anyone that tells you otherwise is lying, I have no idea what that world's going to look like. But I'm really excited and we're all, we all have front row seats. So it's going to be awesome.

It is, it is going to be, uh, it's going to be an exciting world. What about you, Phil? Have you found it difficult to communicate with others out? So what is it? A two pop question this.

Firstly, have you found it difficult? And I can imagine the answer is going to be yes, because it is to most people I speak to. And if so, are we in a fucking cult? Because what is going on that we're so different to everybody else?

I meant. Okay. So look, um, I think I'm going to start it off by saying we, we as humans, we live derivative lives and, um, you know, as a result, we, um, how could I, how could I say this?

Um, we have learned helplessness. So, so I think that, you know, a lot of stuff, right, for the average person, a lot of stuff isn't worth thinking about because it's too big. It's too big to tackle, right?

I'm just going to go and I'm just going to, you know, get a counterparty involved and mitigate my risk with a counterparty, you know, get rid of the personal responsibility. And I think that that's, I think that that's part of it.

So this is why yes, to answer the second part of the question. So this is why I think we are in a cult. We are in the cult of personal responsibility. We're in the cult of, I've decided to be personal responsibility, personally responsible for my, for my value retention, for my value transmission, and for whatever gains or losses I incur.

And I, you know, and, and I intend to be responsible for the, the keys to the value that I hold. And I think that, you know, the average people, you know, the average person, they're not interested in this.

And there's another kind of reason why Bitcoin is not as big as it is it. Let me rephrase that. It's not as big as it's going to be yet. Okay. And it's because people have a difficult time wrapping their mind around it because they, you know, like us, we've all been brainwashed too.

But the differences is that some of us chose to question the brainwashing, right? What, like, like when we were told that the, you know, the government prints money and that's it, some of us sat there and said, why, why does the government print money?

Why does it have to be like this? Like, what, you know, that doesn't make any sense. And, and, and so that's why that's a very small part of the population. So this is, this is where Bitcoin actually excels because besides the freedom enabling technologies of Bitcoin, it has the number go up technology, which is attractive to the

layman brain, right? The layman mind. And as a result, you know, that's how we get those people that that's how we get those people into, you know, to start paying attention and learning about Bitcoin.

But to, you know, just to complete it, I, I do think, you know, I think the word cult is interesting. I remember asking, um, uh, Julian Linniger, uh, Linniger about this, uh, he's the, uh, he's the CEO of, uh, relay.

Relay. Yeah. You know, he has a, he has like a bit of a psychology background. And he goes, yeah, you know, he goes, I don't think it's so bad that we're in a cult, you know, because, you know, um, a cult really by definition is just a certain sized group with a specific set of beliefs.

Um, you know, technically we can classify almost any group into that if we wanted to. I, I just think we're in a cult that has to do with, we're in a sound money cult that is looking after looking for, um, monetary truth, you know, and the proper definition of value and the proper retention and transmission of value.

We are in a cult that makes this fucking rich. Okay. Like, you know, and we're right. That's the problem. Right. It's like, you know, every other cult is like, you know, this, the end of the world or something crazy is going to happen.

It just never happens. And they all, you know, the ones that you hear in like Netflix, they all end up killing each other. Right. So the big winners are definitely a cult. We have beliefs, but the difference is that our beliefs speak for themselves, right?

Like we tell you about what we think about Bitcoin. We tell you, look, it's a better money, it's a better money number, go up number, whatever. And everyone on the outside is like, you guys are crazy.

You guys are toxic. You guys are too mean. You guys are whatever. The Bitcoin speaks for itself. Look at the price, you know, so it's like, yeah, you can call us a cult. You can call us whatever, but we're right.

Right. So I'm sure that's what every other cult says, you know, everyone's different. But you know what, our coolade, our coolade doesn't kill. Our coolade actually enables freedom. It makes you rich in the process, right?

So it's like, is that a bad cult? You know, the people that want to control the money, the central bankers, they hate it and they hate it because their whole, their whole reason for existence is they're no longer necessary.

They were a, you could make an argument, right? That they were a necessary, but you could make it, you know, just benefit of the doubt, you could make an argument that it was a necessary evil, right?

You could say that, right? I'm not a historian. I don't know. And I don't act like one either, but they're no longer necessary. Like I know that for a fact, right? They just haven't come to terms with it.

They don't, they don't know that they, that they won't exist in 20 years, right? And you saw this with the internet too. You saw it. You saw it, you saw it when, when Napster came around and people just started downloading music, you know, straight to their computer, right?

And all the, all the record labels were like, no, we have to sue them. We have to stop them. You can't stop the internet. It's impossible. Right. So what happened? Companies adapted, right?

The people that, that, that use the internet to benefit flourish, the people that try to fight against it. Where are they now? They're nobodies, right? So it's the same thing with Bitcoin, like you either adapt or you don't, or you, or you get left behind.

Now the biggest difference between the internet and Bitcoin is that the internet went after traditional industries. Bitcoin is going against the most entrenched industry on the planet, right?

That has its tentacles so deep down world governments. You see this with all the world, some world governments like India, Turkey, like we've been reporting on simply Bitcoin. They just banned Bitcoin.

So you know that government isn't working for its people. That government is working for its central bank, right? So it's going to be a bloody fight. But man, we have the incentives on our side because it's so simple.

You could just come join our team anytime you want and you're going to benefit from it. We don't care, you know, so it's, it's going to be interesting. And I think it's going to expose, you know, the rot that we always knew that was there that you mentioned earlier, like in the United States and the UK, you know, it's like this

very slick type of corruption. I think Bitcoin is going to expose it for what it is. And it just wakes people the hell up. It's awesome. You know, I just wanted to add to that. You know, Bitcoin has something that the fiat system doesn't have.

Okay, and it has, it has the hearts and minds of people. When, you know, the Bitcoiners, I've never seen anybody, I've never seen anybody decide that their, that their government issued currency is that important, that they had to write, you know, that they had to create songs about it and stuff like that.

And of course, yes, somebody can argue, you know, hip hop artists sit there and throw money at the camera while, you know, you know, having ladies in cars. They're not actually sitting there, like it's, it's not, they're not actually glorifying the money.

They're glorifying themselves. Okay. In this case, Bitcoin, we sit there and we cheer that system. It captures the hearts and minds. When you get into Bitcoin, you know, you may come to it for NGU, but then you stay for the, you know, you stay for the sound money.

That's something that I have never experienced in my life with the exception of something that, that is a grassroots movement, something that comes from the people. And when something comes from the people, I, I'm sorry, but the system doesn't stand a chance.

Of course not. That is the reason we started 21ism and the sound culture revival. There's so much art and so much creativity and love and excitement. Like you said, you compare that to no one's fucking excited about the currency that they're born into.

They just use it and pay the taxes because if they don't, they go to prison. But that's as simple as that. It is just violence that forces them to use it. My real question is when we're talking about this is a industry that is going to be completely wrecked, like completely bulldozed over the, say, say next 20 years

and you had Netflix, you know, taking over blockbuster and you've had all of these companies that failed because they didn't keep up. The difference I see with this is that this is an industry that is going to fight back.

I think a lot of people are sat on their laurels. A lot of people are just saying, oh, number go up. That's amazing. You know, everything's going to be fine. I'm pretty concerned about the way that governments are going to react because if they have any brains at all, they will understand that all their power comes from

the ability to print. All their power comes from the ability to control the money. And if that is taken away, they actually have to be responsible. They actually have to be using the money in a way that the citizens are going to accept because they're not just going to be able to create more of it.

And the only other option is to push up the taxes, which again is going to annoy everyone. So they're on very thin ice. And I wondered what both your thoughts are on the privacy side of Bitcoin.

And if you think this is a battle that we win on that side because, you know, what we do, 6102, I know it's a lot harder, but what if they do threaten people with life imprisonment or something crazy like that, there will be people who will retreat because they will be scared.

Do you think that the tools that we have available now maybe need to be pushed a little bit more and that people should wake up or are you sort of the other side and thinking, now it'll be all right.

So they could try, right? They could definitely try and I'm sure that there's definitely going to be casualties. But the problem is, right, is that you can't do that on a massive scale, right?

So the order by FDR, right, for the Great Depression, the seizure of gold or making illegal for private citizens, so on gold. Part of the reason that was successful, right, is because gold bars, you know, a lot of people just stored that in banks already, right?

But try having a mass order of like, look, we're the government and we now think it's illegal to hold Bitcoin because it's a threat to our system. Please, you know, everybody turn in their Bitcoin at the same time.

What you're going to see is the exact opposite. You're just going to see a mass, a mass exodus of people just exiting out, right? So then how do you stop peer to peer because you've seen this in countries that have already made Bitcoin illegal, right?

How do you stop peer to peer transactions, right? How do you stop people from because it's a much bigger problem, right? It goes down to a fundamental level, right? If you're a lot of people and you see this in Venezuela in the West, we have the luxury of we see Bitcoin and, you know, we kind of see it as a,

not obviously we're Bitcoiners, but a lot of investors in the West, they see Bitcoin as a speculation, right? I'm going to buy this because I think it's going to go up. A lot of people in the undeveloped world, they don't see Bitcoin as an investment.

They see Bitcoin as a way to survive, right? So, you know, if a government decides to make Bitcoin illegal, what it's going to happen is exactly what's been happening. Another government, you know, on the other side of the planet is going to say, "Hey, Bitcoiners, come here."

You know, and as Bitcoin, the power that Bitcoin gives you is it not only gives you the power to vote with your wallet, right? If your government starts printing too much money, you just exit, right?

Like many of us have, but it also gives you the power to vote with your feet because you can remember it for the first time in human history, you can memorize the 24 word or 12 word phrase, you can keep it in your head, you can cross a border, and you can bring hundreds, if not billions of dollars in your mind, right?

And if you look at history back in the 30s, a lot of the reason that, you know, the Jews stayed in Nazi Germany, even though they knew what was going on around them, they were witnesses. A lot of the reason that they couldn't leave is because they couldn't bring their wealth with them.

But Bitcoin changed all of that. So, how do you stop that? I keep going back to the internet. How do you stop that? How do you enforce this $10,000 travel rule that they have now? If you're going into a country, you have to report whether you have $10,000 in cash or not.

How do you stop Bitcoin? They're going to ask you, what's in your mind? You know, like, what words? You know, like, you can't enforce those rules. So, governments are going to have to adapt, or they're going to be left behind.

You know, that's just how it is. I kind of see, I agree with you. It's very hard to seize it. My concern is that governments, if I was a government, say on the British government, if I work out that I can't continue my disgusting way of operating.

I cannot enslave populations. I cannot go to war. I cannot do all of these things that I was previously doing because of Bitcoin, or I won't be able to. And I was a psychopath, which they are.

I would probably do something along these lines. I would just look at every single exchange, force them, that they have to show everyone who's bought anything with fiat through any exchange.

Anything that is on there, I would seize. Even if someone has held their own keys, if they have not coin-joined, and it is that they can't prove that they no longer own those coins, I will seize their assets, and if they will not hand over the amount of Bitcoin

that I believe they have, I will imprison them or take their other assets like their property. That's how I would operate. That would be totally doable eight years ago. Now, when you have Coinbase just going public, when you have the Republican minority leader

saying we have to learn how to adopt this technology or we're in risk of being left behind. This is the House Republican leader of the United States saying that. You have the mayor of Miami.

If the whole world does not coordinate and make Bitcoin illegal, all at once, all you need is one node, all you need is one miner that's still working on one side of the world, and Bitcoin is just going to keep working like nothing happened.

That's the problem. It's like a virus, dude. Unless you kill it all at once, it will just keep replicating, it will come back. It's like, do you want to go the root of seizure? Do you want to go the root of imprisoning your own citizens for owning a piece of code, for owning a password?

Is that the root that you want to go through? Or do you want to go the other root, which is like instead of doing the things that you've been doing, trying to work with your citizens, and I think that the world would not only be a much more fair place, but it would also be a much wealthier place as well.

That's how you build wealth. It's cooperating with other people. At the end of the day, the government is supposed to serve its own people. It's not supposed to be this tyrannical force. In the United States specifically, our constitution was built on those principles.

I think they're so important. But a lot of people in the West take that for granted. But coming from a country that was completely destroyed by socialism and this idea of like, I know what's best for you.

You don't know what's better for yourself. Coming to United States and seeing the ideals that this country has, man, if the United States and the government decide which I don't think it's going to, but if it decides to ever make Bitcoin illegal one day, it's going completely against what the founding fathers

and what the constitution says in itself. It doesn't make sense. Is that going to stop people? Is that going to stop the corrupt evil politician? No, it's not. Look at Brad Sherman calling for Bitcoin's ban.

Calling exactly the things that you've been saying. That cut or power comes from that, right? We have to nip this in the butt. The problem is that works, but you need to have every single person saying that because as long as you have the opposition saying something different, you can't kill it.

You can't stop it, you know, so it's, it's very interesting, man. And now that you have block stream launching satellites into space, like Bitcoin knows into space, dude, it just becomes harder and harder to kill.

And I think we're at this point right now where it's economically impossible to kill, right? It's, it's, you know, theoretically it's possible, but economically, I don't think so, right? Because you would be destroying a huge percentage of the, of the U.S. economy, just because you're like, look, we're banning Bitcoin.

You're going to see, man, the exchanges are going to become more and more powerful, right? So, so yeah, man, it's going to be exciting, but I definitely agree, bro. We're in for, we're in for quite a, quite a battle for sure.

Yeah, I'd feel any, any ideas on this? I mean, I don't know whether I explained what I'm saying correctly. I, I'm in complete agreement with you there, Nico, in terms of they can't stop this network.

They can't. My real question is, should people be waking up a little bit more and seriously considering using the tools, using coin join, making sure they have some plausible deniability, breaking links, stopping this tracking so that they are prepared for what could come.

I think that's really my question. I'm, I'm 100% with you though. They're not stopping the network. They just can take away people's freedoms who don't deserve it taken away and that concerns me.

I think that privacy and security is obviously important. I, you know, at the same time, I think it's our responsibility to number one, to understand how to use these tools. Number two, to make these tools easy to use.

Okay. I think that one of the biggest challenges in Bitcoin is is that we're, a lot of us are, a lot of us are technical, okay? A lot of us are technical and the majority of the world out there is not, okay?

And so even though these tools may be easier for us to use, we need them to be easy. You know, if privacy and security are a norm and a standard, it really can't be stopped. You know, but as long as we keep these privacy tools, you know, kind of like, you know, making

them just not entirely, let's say, part of the user experience, I think that that becomes, I think that that becomes challenging. Now, I just want to also clarify, I am not talking about in any way, shape, or form obfuscating the base layer or anything like that.

That's a load of crap, okay? That leads to us not knowing how many Bitcoin we have. And then that makes us into, you know, something like Monero, okay? Where everybody's cheering for the privacy, but nobody really has any clue how many Monero there are.

And let's be honest, I don't think anybody gives a fuck because they're just trying to use it for whatever reason they're using it for, you know, so they don't really care how... Exactly.

It's transactional. So, okay, fair enough, but I do think that we're going to see these privacy tools on a higher layer than Bitcoin, right, on the second layer and the third layers of Bitcoin.

And like I said at the beginning, I think it's our responsibility to understand how to use these tools to help the funding of the development of these tools, right? But to help the devs that do this and to make these tools as easily accessible as possible because you know what?

To your point, okay? Sure. We can end up in a situation where we have a tyrannical government like this, okay? And they can do many of those things. And for a certain portion of the population, those tactics will work, okay?

But for some of us, we have nothing to lose. For some of us, we have understood that giving, you know, let's say, you know, giving yourself or giving your time or whatever it is to a greater cause is valuable.

And the idea of monetary freedom for future generations, you know, in no way am I advocating this, but you know, it is something worth dying for because if we look at all the people's value that has been robbed, you know, to the present day, think of the people that killed

themselves and you know, the Wall Street crashes and stuff like that over, you know, a number change on a screen really, like those people had families that what happened to those people's families are ripple effects of a poor monetary system that just a very small group of people get to benefit from no matter what happens.

Now you're going to tell me that, you know, all of, you know, all of us, you know, like the rest of humanity, we don't deserve to have the, you know, an equal share in the value that that money represents because we aren't at the top of that spigot.

Like fuck you. You know what, if it ruins your fucking party, no problem, you know, like it's like I will kill myself. It's, it's, it's not an issue. I'm just saying people don't realize once you capture hearts and minds, you know what, you know, like we, I do, I truly believe that that Bitcoiners on, on average have, you know,

have staked their claim and have nothing to lose because the fiat system is nothing to go back to. And I don't think that people in the fiat system are prepared for that. I agree that I completely agree with Phil's point that Jeannie is out of the bottle and

it's not going back, self custody is out of the bottle, and I think that central bankers specifically, Christine Lagarde, right, because she's having an attack. She doesn't understand, like she thinks she's like, okay, you know, we can make central bank digital currencies in a quick and we can have mobile wallets, but it's like, it's

much deeper than that. It's like we want the keys to our wealth. No one else. And Phil's absolutely right, man, if it comes to it, we're willing to take this all the way. We don't care because we refuse and a lot of people, it's not just Phil and I, we refuse to go back to a system in which they control our keys.

Fuck that. Fuck it. I'm not going back. I, I, it's like just thinking about banking, you know, like I have my banking account because I need it, right? Um, because I have a couple of businesses, but it's like, like I just use it for that.

I use it as a checking. I don't use it to save. I don't keep my money there. I keep it in Bitcoin because, because, and it's like, and I think it's only a matter of time. You know, as the population gets older and you know, as, as the boomer generation, which

is the generation that has the most wealth and they control basically everything, man, is to say, start getting older. Do you think that the new generation, man, I haven't talked to anyone under the age of 30 that doesn't work in banking, right?

If they work in banking, it's a different story, right? But I haven't talked to anyone under the age of 30 that dislikes Bitcoin. Not one person. I've met, they could, they cannot understand it.

They could like doge. They could like shit coins, but the concept of self custody, the concept of having a money in which I can transact with anyone and I don't have to ask permission from that person.

Man, we're not going backwards. I just want, I just want to add one more point about, about the privacy and the security aspect. Um, in, in no way, you know, again, you know, people that think that they're going to evade governments, right, and, and that you're going to buy a mansion and that you think the government's

not going to be able to find my Bitcoin because of, uh, coin joins in this and that. Guess what? Okay. If you go and buy a million dollar house, they're, they're going to do an inquiry, okay?

When you, when you go to do this and they're going to look at your last, at least in certain States or they're going to look at the last three to six months of your revenue. You also have to prove how much money you earn.

It's not like all of a sudden this money appears out of nothing. So my point about the privacy tools is not about evading the government. It's about our right, right? We are not criminals because we choose to embrace privacy and because we choose to embrace security

and because we choose to not let a proven, incompetent government entity decide whether our transactions are valid or not. Okay. Like that, that's what's insane. So I, I just, you know, I just want to stress that, you know, it's like it, it, look, at the end of the day, they are the gatekeepers right now.

So if you're going to go off and sell your Bitcoin and do all this kind of privacy stuff, uh, at some point, you are going to have to, depending on what you choose to spend your Bitcoin on, if it's a really big item, you're going to have to show your, uh, your revenue.

And again, it also depends on where you live. Of course, I, I'm talking about in for me in the States or if you're in Canada, you have to show them where the revenue came from. Okay. So you're going to end up paying for the tax on it. So again, you know, like at the end

of the day, right now in the current system, if you spend big, it is going to get noticed, but that is no reason for us not to have privacy, not to have security and for us not to help fund the development and learn and make these tools available.

Two really big points from both of you there. So firstly, the point about under 30s, just even if they don't understand it, they're very, very much with it. They're not so against it. Whereas it's sort of the boomer generation that have a different view usually. That's

a really important point because as this wealth transfer happens and as the boomers die out and the money goes into the hands of the millennials, it changes things massively. And the only thing that I see in the way of that, the only time that I have pushed back from people in

my age group is always the fucking environment. It's that's the only one where like there's been some great pieces written. There's all the evidence out there. You know, you can argue it to the death, but there is a huge amount of people. They have this idea in their

head that Bitcoin is going to kill the environment. And I can't tell you how many people have argued that point with me. And they've said, oh, I'll get what you're saying with Bitcoin, but I'm not going to invest in it because it's going to kill the environment. So I think

that's one thing we need to try and get across. And I know we're right on it, but it needs to be put across. And the other thing about getting money back into the system is absolutely right. It's the same here. If you're going to take your money and you're going to make

it as private as you can, you try and get it back in no fucking way. They've got all the checks in place. You're not going to do it. I think really, when you're doing something with that money, you need to be thinking about this is a separate economy. If you're taking

it, if you're sucking that liquidity out of the legacy economy, and there are some things that are tied to that like property purchases, stock market, et cetera, et cetera. If you ever want to sell that Bitcoin to buy any of those assets, you know, maybe there's an

argument to be had that the privacy side is not going to help you in terms of evading tax. It just means that people can't spy on you as much because you're not going to get that back in. But this separate economy is what I find really exciting and to see

the trade between Bitcoiners using this different system, I don't ever want to go back to the other system. I mean, there are some things I have to right now, but fuck it. I ever want to go back if I don't have to. Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, this is this is such a better system.

I mean, and again, you know, to your point, right? I think that the future is what's exciting. The Bitcoin ecosystem is growing out. I mean, I think it was documenting Bitcoin that just tweeted out yesterday that house that sold in the Netherlands for Bitcoin. What did they

sell it for? I don't even remember. I think it was 20. I don't remember how many Bitcoin. But that's just the beginning. We've seen we've seen boats get sold for Bitcoin. We've seen homes get sold for Bitcoin. It's going to happen more and more. People desire the

strongest, the hardest money, right? And we want to spend the crap. We have no matter. So no, go ahead. Just to add to your point, dude, no matter how much propaganda, no matter who they get the head of the central bank to go on TV and to go in front of the camera

and say, listen, our money is secure, our money is whatever. It doesn't matter. The fact is that people are going to go towards Bitcoin. No matter, dude, no matter how much brainwashing, it doesn't matter. And to go back to the climate point that I think is a very good one, you

know, and like I forget, it was like doc Bitcoin, Dr. Bitcoin MD that says maybe psychedelic part, but essentially saying like the communists, the socialists and the climate activists are going to be the last ones to come to Bitcoin, meaning they're going to be the poorest ones.

And you know, money runs the world, right? So if we're heading towards the future that Bitcoin does become, you know, or tries to become or as it continues to grow in market cap, right? The people with the power are going to be the Bitcoiners. They're not going

to be the broke climate activists, you know, they're the one the Bitcoiners are going to be the ones with the actual sway in society. And I think that you're going to start to see that this decade, I think the last two decades were dominated by the big tech guys,

the Silicon Valley guys. But dude, I think their time, you know, they had a good run, but I think that this decade or the next couple decades are going to be dominated by Bitcoiners, right? Bitcoiners are going to be the ones with the money. Bitcoiners are going to be

the ones with the bot politicians. And you're already starting to see this, right? You're seeing this with, with, with, you wouldn't call them bot. They're not really necessarily bot. They're just trying to attract business to their cities. And they're doing a great

job. Right? So I think that as time goes by, you know, you could, you could, you know, you could have whatever ideology you could have, whatever belief, you know, you could call Bitcoin bad, you could call it bad for the environment. But it's a matter of fact,

if you don't buy Bitcoin, you're going to be much poorer than the guy that buys Bitcoin, right? And no matter what ideology, belief you have, that doesn't change, right? It's black and white. So man, go with the climate FUD, bro, you're going to have fun staying

poor. It's just your problem. It's not mine. And actually, just to, you know, just to continue on that, right? I think that the climate activists and all that, I think that this is all just concern trolling. Okay. And it's, it's like virtue signaling, because these people, right?

Do they not use, do they not like live in a home? Was that home not painted? Right? Paint is, paint is led based in some cases. But in other cases, it's petroleum based. You also have, you also have everything that everybody uses. I mean, is more or less plastic. What is plastic?

Plastic is petroleum based. It's oil. Like these people are such psychotic hypocrites. It doesn't make any sense. Like think about all, think about all the resources that get used. Like they sit there and they say, oh yeah, you know, Bitcoin's boiling the ocean. Okay. And then they, but they don't sit

there and measure, okay, well, how much, what's the carbon footprint of the current banking system per country, right? And what are the metrics of that? Like nobody's sitting there talking about that. Instead, they're pointing at Bitcoin. Why are they pointing at Bitcoin? Because Bitcoin is

transparent. Whereas everything, everything else is not everything else is muddy and confusing because it's bullshit. And while they're saying all of this, you know, that they'll be posting it on Instagram and Twitch and every other fucking social media thing, which is running a server

somewhere so that they can access it while they're sat on their phone. They don't think about the energy consumption that uses while they just talk a load of shit and have a load of people listening to it and storing their photos about them at some protest. And the truth is if they just bought

Bitcoin, it would be a much better protest. And they align, they align with us in more ways than they think, you know, a lot of the people that really want change, a lot of the people that were really pissed off with governments and the way that things are run. I think a lot of them just

go to that kind of virtue signaling side and the environment sort of eco side because they just get a bit lost and they don't really get to the root of the problem, which is the money. And they don't see that this is a much more effective way of doing it. But once they do, they'll come over again,

but they'll just do it, you know, in a few years when we're, you know, 500,000 a million a coin or something like that. And then, you know, they miss out because they've been lazy, I suppose.

Dude, look, you're exactly right. And I think it's, you know, it's very black and white, dude. It's like these people, they could say whatever they want, they could, you know, they could bitch, they could complain, they could whatever. But it's like, dude, that's your problem. And you're going to

pay a monetary value for being that stupid. Like, it's that simple, like you will get left behind, right? And this isn't only just supplies to people, this applies to governments, this applies to companies, this applies to anyone that doesn't humble themselves enough to understand what is

happening, right? What is happening is we've essentially discovered a technology that essentially treats everyone equal, right? And, and, and, and, and man, like the possibilities that that unlocks, you know, it's, it's what we've been talking about that, and you've been talking about this,

the whole pod, like we can't even, you know, conceptualize that right now, right? But it's just like, man, it's just these people, bro, they're going to, they're going to left behind and they're going to, they're going to hurt and they're going to hate, they're going to hate it for it. But it's

like, as soon as you just decide, like, just shut up and buy Bitcoin, you're going to become one of Bitcoin's biggest proponents, you know, so it's like, that's the power, dude. It's that it's like, this is so strong that I think that, you know, and governments have been trying to ignore it,

you know, the United States specifically, they just, you know, they, I think they've been wanting it to go away. So it's just, it's just, man, the, the, the, the ride is going to be awesome.

I'm very excited. Do you guys have any specific projects or things that you are really excited about at the moment? Any sort of favorite bits of software or hardware that you're using that you really help that will really help move things along and get people to understand and use these

things? Is there anything that's particularly exciting? Okay, I'll, all right, so I'll start. Every single, every single open source, and I know that's in brackets because we had the open source battle, every single open source node project. Okay, I'm excited about all the

node projects because I think that everybody should run a node. Can you pick your favorite? One node? Okay, one node. But it's so tough. Okay, so look, how about this? Okay, I run, I run a my node, I run a, an umbrella, I run a Raspy Blitz, and I run an embassy node. Okay,

I use the my node the most. So I'll leave it at that, because I can't really say that I have a favorite. I like them all. It's just that's the one I use the most. I don't know what to say, you know, but I love what they're all doing. And people should definitely check out embassy,

OS embassy node, which is start nine labs. They have a great little product that's really easy to use. No, I'm not sponsored by them. I just like their product. But another project that I'm really excited about that I really enjoy going along the lines of this, you know, kind of, you know,

not your keys, not your coin is the specter, do it yourself hardware wallet. I got one of those, I also built one. I love what step on and Ben, Kaufman are doing there. And I'm sorry, I know there's other developers there. I just I don't remember the names I apologize. But they are that

whole team is doing amazing work. I love to do it yourself hardware wallet. I think that that's totally the way that way to go. And yeah, cool. Very good answer. And Niko, man, look, there's so many good projects. But in terms of importance, in terms of like, I think that what's actually

going to leave an impact, I think the most important Bitcoin project right now, and it doesn't even come close as Bitcoin pay server. It's, you know, I think that a lot of previous companies, they tried to approach that, you know, from the fiat system, which is like, I'm going to create

the centralized entity. You know what I'm saying? Like BitPay. But I think BTC pay BTC pay server takes the best principles and ideals of Bitcoin. And they're using it. You saw, we reported a Tesla essentially contributing back fixing their vulnerabilities. And you could assume that Tesla

is using BTC pay server to accept payments for their Teslas themselves, right? So I think, you know, I think that this is just the beginning, like we've been saying, I think that you're going to see a bunch of other projects that are going to fulfill other needs. I think that nodes right now are

super awesome to Bitcoiners, right? So, you know, we'll, you know, we'll build together a RASPIPI, you know, we'll, we'll put together a 3D case, you know, we'll learn to solder, not learn to solder, like I'm going through right now. So like, we'll put ourselves through these uncomfortable learning

processes, but the general public, they're not, right? They're going to want to use something that just works, right? And I think PTC pay server right now, it just works, right? So you could pay anyone, you're buying, you know, you're buying something online, whatever, you know,

use BTC papers, so your server pops up an address, you send it there, you know, it's free to use, it's just, you know, it's awesome, right? And I think that just unlocks more possibilities.

And I think that there's going to be something that we don't see that's going to just be built on top of that. And just the technology is going to get better and better. Yeah, that's so true. That it's such a fucking cool project. And it's so slick. It's such a

such an important thing to have. And like you say, having Tesla using it and these bigger companies can do the same. That feedback loop is going to be beautiful, very exciting stuff. Well, guys, look, I try and keep these under an hour and a half. It's been really, really cool to catch up

with you guys and to learn the way that you're thinking about things. And I've really enjoyed it. It's been awesome. And before you sort of finish up, I'd like to just get you guys to do a bit of shilling towards your pod and your videos and everything that you're doing so people can find you.

All right, very cool. I mean, on Twitter, I'm coin Icarus and on Telegram. I'm also coin Icarus. And obviously, I'm the co-host of at Simply Bitcoin with Niko or Bitvault 7. And I also do a podcast long format like this, which is fun with Bitcoin. Yeah, I've actually just just been listening to

one of your episodes. It was really, really good. Oh, cool. Thank you. No, really awesome. And any other sort of places we can point people to so they can find you guys. Just search, just go on just go on YouTube, search Simply Bitcoin, hit subscribe. And I hope you liked the content,

but hit subscribe first. And you can also find us on Twitter at Simply Bitcoin underscore. I think we are cool. You'll be able to tell it's us. It's the orange circle that says Simply Bitcoin.

It's going to like a rabbit in it, hasn't it? Or something like that? Oh, no, that's my personal podcast. That's your quote. That's right. Simply Bitcoin. We're totally like no frills. It's an orange circle that says Simply Bitcoin. You'll see it from a mile away. Okay, just it just stands out.

You can't miss it. So yeah, it's good stuff. But man, thank you so much for having us, Max. I had a lot of fun. Definitely. We went down our own rabbit hole. It was great. Thank you. Yeah, with you, this was amazing. Awesome. Yeah, I've really enjoyed it. Thanks again, guys. And

if you just stay on the line just for two sex, when I stop the recording, just so we save all our files, I don't want to lose this one. It was a banger. No worries.