EP92 Meshtadel monthly 0002 Permaculture and Bitcoin

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space, and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back to Bit by Bit. Today, we have our second episode of the Mestadale Monthly 002, and I have Chino back with me and also Nonya Biddness. So, on the last episode, we discussed permaculture and we really wanted to get someone in to go into a little bit more depth.

Nonya Biddness has a lot of experience with permaculture, and it was really good to hear Chino and him inform me on all the stuff that I didn't know, and I really hope this is helpful for you too.

We have another episode coming next month. This is gonna be on education. So, if you have any questions about this episode or the one coming, then please do let me know. You can reach out to either Sol X, me, or Chino, and we will get those questions answered.

I want to say thank you to Coin Floor UK for sponsoring this show. If you're in the UK, you're looking to stack that. You're looking to buy weekly or monthly. You can use the code that's in the bottom of my show notes, and you will get a 30% discount off your auto buys.

I'd also like to say thank you to my new sponsors, Cryptoclopes. Cryptoclopes are doing some phenomenal work. They have got some amazing note cases, block mitts, all different types of things that you could possibly want, and they are Bitcoin only.

They've got a really, really cool team. I've ordered some bits myself, which I'm looking forward to receiving, and they can really just turn your office around. They can give you something tangible to hold.

All of us who are crazy about Bitcoin, you have something that's digital, it's nice to have something back, you can sit in your office and you can hold in your hand. So check them out at cryptoclopes.com.

Enjoy the show. - Okay, cats are feeding. I hope they will be satisfied. - What cats have you got? - One male and one female. Like, well, it's only half of the story. We recently took it for little kittens and then two street cats, one is pregnant and the other is the mother of the four.

They have eight cats in the house, oh my God. - Oh my God. - Well, we really wanted to help because otherwise they might have been forced to put them to sleep and I would have been very sad.

- Yeah, no, you can't, that's sad. They'll be doing that. Oh, here we are. I think none of you is just joining us. - There he is. - None of you. - Hello, mate. Welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.

- Sorry, I didn't send that link for 15 minutes. I was nattering away about cats to cheat, no? - I know, it's okay, man. I was just, you know, when, you know, we're doing this and we're all over the world, you know, it's like, especially for someone like me who's like, you know, I'm older and I didn't have, like for, I grew up

in a situation where I didn't really have to worry about time zones across the world and, you know, now it's like, I'm trying to constantly convert to UTC and I'm like, what the hell's happening to me, man?

- Yeah, it's a crazy time. It's pretty amazing, though, being able to do it, isn't it? Like, the fact that we can all just join from different countries. - Absolutely. - And just have these sort of conversations as wild.

- Yeah, I think what helps is if you all switch to Moscow time, guys, that should be the new standard. - Probably should. - Yeah, absolutely. Well, I really have been looking forward to this.

I've just been chatting to, you know, a couple of minutes offline thinking about a way to structure this, but to be honest, I don't know that we can, particularly, 'cause there's so many threads to pull on here.

It seems like the perfect two people to have on this show, you both have so many things that cross over permaculture, Bitcoin, gaming. I've been listening, Nanya, to some of your episodes with the Bitcoin and dot, dot, dot, and absolutely loving that.

Just listen to the recent episodes for 428, which is damn impressive that you've managed to not throw this many out. Yeah, I have to say, like, it seems perfect to have you on this because I'm listening through and I'm like, you're touching on so many points that me and Solax and Chino are speaking out about before.

So, yeah, hopefully you can come on and school us on all of this and, yeah, really looking forward to it. So, before we jump in, I think anyone on Bitcoin Twitter will know you and know what you're about, but for those who don't, would you mind doing a little bit of an introduction on yourself, your pod, and what it is you're aiming to do

in this Bitcoin space? Yeah, my name's David Bennett. I go by Nanya Fitness on Twitter. I have the Bitcoin and podcast, and that was designed at first, and I guess it'll come back again, as I know get to know more and more people, but the gist of it was supposed to be there's Bitcoin and then there's other things,

and we need to talk about those other things in relation to how Bitcoin does. Now, for the last 400 or so episodes, I decided that what I thought was missing in the space was somebody that did a daily news show and wakes up in the morning, get, you know, compiles together the, you know, what news stories are coming down the pipe

from several different curators, like Bitcoin Magazine and BTC Times, and I've got a couple of other ones on my list, like a coin gate, coin telegraph, block words, you know, that kind of stuff, in either bit, because nobody was, you know, there's guys one who's like reading these essays and whatnot,

but there was nobody that was really doing the daily news and I'm like, okay, let's do that. And then, but like I said in the future, as things move forward, I wanna get back to the, you know, start, you know, continue to do the news, but also to be able to present different things that are going on that are in, you know,

that will either crossover, have some kind of edge effect with or firmly planted in the world of Bitcoin and so far as, you know, things like permaculture may not come out as a situation where it looks too much like Bitcoin, but it does.

And pulling apart, you know, why that is, is sort of like where this was, this show was originally supposed to go. So that's pretty much the spiel on that one. - Are you still with us next?

- Sorry, boys, I just dropped out there for a second. I'm back, if you can hear me now. - Oh, yeah, I got as far as the Daily Show and then actually introducing ideas like permaculture into the mix.

I don't know how much further you got than that. - That, yeah, that's pretty much, you know, that's pretty much it. I just need to get, you know, I've been looking for ways to get back into bringing some of these other notions around like, 'cause gaming is gonna be, you know, it's already becoming very large,

but as far as its connection with Bitcoin, but it's gonna become even larger, education is, you know, is another thing and I'm talking about general education, not Bitcoin education, how we manage, you know, teaching children certain things in the future and what that structure looks like as a decentralized version.

There's all, you know, in my opinion, there's gonna be a lot of stuff that becomes decentralized alongside the model of well money. And like once we centralized money, we started centralizing everything because the flow of money pretty much is the path that everything flows down.

So if you don't have like small rivers and streams and everything is, you know, all just ends up all in one giant canal as far as value flow goes, well, then that's the only path for almost everything else, agriculture, architecture, fiction, novel writing, education, you name it, is it will follow the valley that is carved out

by the centralized action of value flow. And since we've centralized everything, you know, we essentially have financialized everything because all values floated to this one canal and there's nowhere for anything else to go.

So as we try to decentralize this thing and work itself back out to where the water or the value is more distributed, so will things like education, gaming, agriculture, architecture, all that kind of stuff.

That's sort of the way that I see things. - Completely agree. It's the reason this shows come about really after a conversation with Sol X and with Gino, we sort of were touching on a lot of these ideas and we were all saying, well, yeah, you know, what if, what if we're right about the money?

That's one thing, but then all these other things, like if you want to go and you want to get yourself to Citadel and you want to raise a family and you want to have a good life, it's not enough just to have sound money.

There's all these things that have to change with it. And the things that you're talking about are exactly along the same lines. And so Sol Xport's son, Sol Xboy and him had been wargaming and come up with this idea of a Mestadel, you know, a group of citadels that work together like a mesh network

to support each other, have trade, share ideas, you know, work on permaculture, work on education. And all of this can be allowed through sound money. And so that was kind of the idea is to meet monthly, get other people who are thinking in a similar way and together come up with some great ideas

how to push the future forward and do things properly. So yeah, it's kind of how it all came about. And I know, Gino, you've been working on some bits at home with your own land. I don't know if maybe you can give us some updates on where you're at since last time we met.

And last time we did the first episode. - Yeah, I remember like in the first episode, I said that the deposit would be delivered in a couple of weeks, which of course delayed massively. But around almost two weeks ago, we finally got all the deposits, which is now finally sitting behind the house.

And we just prepared it to be buried, hopefully in a week or two. But right now I am just looking into where I could get the machinery because I'm not going to do that by hand. Like no way I'm going to take a shovel and shovel tons and tons of soil.

So of course, like looking for some heavy machinery there. And to make it worthwhile, like I don't want to only bury the deposit and then give back the machine, I think I could do so much more.

And one of the things I have planned for my land, it's like it's slightly sloped and I talked about swales before as well. It's something that I want to apply in my land. Like I already, I made out the contours like where it's going horizontal on the land and made out key points where I want to put the swales

because as I said before, like they're a great tool to just stop the rainwater from running off that sits somewhere and then slowly seep into the soil. So if I can get the heavy machine to do that at the same time, it would be all the better than I already did my earthworks.

It's something that I think is often like underestimated the power that it could have. Like I don't see that a conventional gardener thinks about like creating soil structures to improve their yield in the garden, in the agriculture, like I look around and I see many fields, like they're either olive trees

or almond trees, peach. And they don't think about contours, they just think about their grid lines. Like it must be straight so a machine can go and collect and harvest and everything is nice and orderly but they haven't stopped and consider this flow of the land.

Like what happens when it rains? Not thinking about it at all. And this is one of the things that really surprised me, that really stood out after just learning the basics, only the basics of permaculture.

- It's so interesting. This is, all this permaculture stuff is completely new to me. You guys are obviously way further down the rabbit hole but it's not something that I'd ever considered either.

It's just something that you don't learn it at school and you don't really think about it in general life, especially if you're busy in a job. And it's only when you start to think about possibly having land that you'd even consider these ideas but the things you've spoken about in the past

and this both seem to be the obvious way to do it. So what's the reason that people aren't doing these kind of things? None of you maybe you have some ideas on this. Permaculture, why is not everyone jumping on this bandwagon and realizing how important this is?

- Well, honestly, in my view, it's because the concept of permaculture is relatively, okay, this is gonna sound weird. It's relatively new but this was something that people knew about a long, long time ago.

So it was like, yeah, it really is, it's ancient and then something happened to the human condition that made us forget a great body of knowledge. Almost like you can think of it like the burning of the library in Alexandria way, way, way back 'cause we have no idea what it is that we lost on that burn.

So what ended up happening is that humans have this insane ability to recognize patterns. We are pattern recognition machines and what is happening is that even though the human condition caused us to forget a great body of knowledge, we're starting to relearn it all by ourselves

as in the modern and post-modern times. So this is new in so far that there was two guys that in the 1970s in Australia and Tasmania started working on it and it was a guy named Bill Mullison, I think he's the guy from Tasmania and his student David Holmgren.

And he was like, so his, what I mean by his student is that Bill Mullison was teaching at the university level at the time, had a grad student named David Holmgren and they crafted three books that were, they weren't big books, some people consider them to be pamphlets but they're larger than pamphlets

but there was permaculture one permaculture two and permaculture three and as a team, what they were doing is they were, I don't know, they were talking to Aboriginal people as to what you like about ancient knowledge and they were literally looking for everything outside of mainstream to figure out what was going on

and where they were doing it is the continent of Australia. And the thing about the continent of Australia is that it's probably the most brittle piece of land anywhere on the entire globe.

It's probably even more brittle than the Sahara Desert. It is, it was detached from Antarctica and that's where it came from. So it's like not very deep soils. The soils are easily disturbed and for thousands and thousands of years, the Aboriginals, they knew how to kind of take care of the land and then around 1870 or 1860,

the Europeans came to the continent of Australia and the first thing they did was put sheep on it and it's literally obliterated all the work that the Aboriginals have done. Because what we took these European practices of agriculture, which is the same shit that's gone on in the United States and pretty much everywhere else

and they applied it to the most brittle piece of land that they found but they didn't know what they were doing because they had already lost all the ancient knowledge. So with Bill Mollison and David Holmgen going around and trying to figure out what's going on here, they start uncovering all these old ancient types

of techniques and then start reapplying them. And like a swale, in permaculture, people talk about swales all the time. And it's only one of hundreds of tools that are in the toolbox of regenerative agriculture and permaculture 'cause honestly those two things link up pretty damn well.

But like a swale, not only does it capture water and like distributes it, distributes it, it slows the water down and lets it get back into the soil but it's also a tree growing system 'cause you plant trees on the, you basically you dig a ditch on contour, you take the soil out, you put it on the downward slope

right by the edge of the ditch that you just dug, you plant trees and all kinds of stuff in it and then you plant trees on the high side next to the edge of the swale. So those trees, as their roots grow down, they break up the soil and it makes the soil, the subsoil even more permeable.

So you actually end up capturing more and more water over time. And this is one of the concepts that we have in Bitcoin is time horizon. What's your time horizon? One of the things, one of the reasons I believe we forgot all this shit is because we all got in a hurry.

And we had to have everything done right now, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, we're not getting the rain. So dig a hole, you know, get a well, let's do all this other stuff when all you really had to do was think about the future and not the present.

And once you change that attitude, everything, like a whole bunch of stuff gets easier as long as you can have patience. If you can't have patience, this is, yeah, these are not the droids you're looking for.

Does that make any sense? - It makes sense. - Absolutely. Like, especially the time horizon thing is like, the best example is planting trees, which takes a lot of time. And in Bitcoin, since I think Safedine really brought this concept forward of like low time preference and it goes so well hand in hand,

probably steaks had some plant trees, this should be the mantra for this. - Yeah, yeah, you were in the process of doing this last time we spoke, Gino, you were saying about planting some trees at the top of a hill to create shade for the plants that you'd be growing up the top of the hill, is that right?

- Well, not on top of the hill, I don't have a hill on my land, but the shade party is definitely true. Like right now I have, I haven't counted them, I think it's around 250 luguminous trees.

They're actually they're considered weeds, and the thing about weeds is also in Western agriculture is like we see them as a devil, we want to get rid of them as soon as we see them. But because we have this kind of hatred, we don't see their function in the ecosystem.

And what weeds do is they come in when the ecosystem is out of balance, when the soil is lacking nutrients or organic matter, they come in, they break up the soil again, they reintroduce organic matter through the system, maybe even nutrition, like what my luguminous trees, for example, do, they have the ability to fix nitrogen

underground, a nitrogen is one of the basic components that plants need to grow leaves, for example. And not only repair an ecosystem, but you could also use them to read the ecosystem as well, like you just look at what kind of weed is growing on your land.

Say, for example, there's a thistle that has thick roots, like thick tap roots that could indicate that your soil is too hard, because tap roots, they tend to break up the soil, and they make pathways again for the water to seep in.

At the same time, having thistles could also indicate that you might have iron deficiency in the soil because they accumulate that. And just by understanding what that means, like you could look it up nowadays on the internet, I think it's a great resource to just type it quickly in what it means if you have a certain weed growing,

maybe even at the keyboard permaculture to it, that's what I like to do, because then you end up at the right source immediately, and you can figure shit out that way. Like, what's wrong with my soil?

And just by reading what kind of weed is growing? - So interesting, these links where you're talking about sort of ancient cultures, using these techniques and it being forgotten because we've gone into this crazy now, now, now, everything has to be sorted immediately, high-time preference culture.

Kind of reminds me, I was watching a couple of years ago interview with Graham Hancock. I don't know if you're familiar with him, Graham Hancock and Randy Carlson or something like that. And they were talking about rainforests, the way that they were managing soil in rainforests, thousands of years ago,

and how actually a lot of the plants and trees that are there are only there because of the way that they were doing their agriculture. And that they were very successful in the way they're doing it.

And I wonder, you're talking about like there was a switch to go to this high-time preference thinking. Do you think this could have been after a specific event? Or do you think that this is more likely just to be that fiat culture that has quickly changed things?

- I think, especially with the times of colonialism, we just exported our world into the world. And we completely disregarded what the indigenous people in those continents were doing. Like, we just wanted to have the things that we're familiar with.

Like, on your side, we just imported the sheeps there. But it was not only the sheeps. It was fruit trees and vegetables. Like, we just take it from Europe and put it on other continents without even thinking about, wait a minute.

Does it even make sense to grow this here? Like, not even asking a question, what is there we could eat in this land that is not at home? I'm surprised that we discovered the potato when we discovered South America.

But there's probably so much war that we haven't found. Like, just look at avocados. I think it was not very recently. We considered them not edible. Like, what we did, as humans, we just gave it to the cows.

And now that we figured out, hey, avocado is actually very healthy fruit. Let's put it on all the toast and eat it at the same time. So there is a lot of misunderstanding or not taking the time what this particular ecosystem actually means, what it is consisting of and how can it help us and how can we protect that.

I think only very recently, we started to get on the bandwagon to protect indigenous land and species. Yeah, Max, I wanted to-- there's a lot of stuff about that South American soil management stuff that we could get into.

But before we exit this, if I could, I kind of want to tell a story about something that's a direct example of weeds and what they mean and kind of dealing with them, if that be OK. Absolutely.

The way I want to kind of structure this is I'm the idiot in the room. You two know about permaculture. And I'm here, basically, to learn along with the audience. So you guys take it where you want to take it.

And I'm just happy to be listening and learning. OK, so we moved to the house that I'm living in now, which is in the Panhandle of Texas, which is a fairly brittle environment. It's part of the great plains of the United States, and it's become brittle over time, because we took all the animals off of it.

So not a whole lot of water falls from the sky, that kind of thing. So I've moved in and go to the backyard. And it's a fairly large backyard. And there was this one patch, probably about 100-- let's just say about 100 square feet.

And during that first summer, I noticed that I had a whole bunch of-- I hate to call them weeds, but most people will consider amaranth a weed, even though it's the seed head that it produces is highly nutritious.

But most people will consider it a weed. And it's scraggly looking and all that kind of stuff. And I was sitting there looking at this club of weeds growing up. And it was amaranth and something called pigweed and a few other items.

And I decided, you know what? Those weeds are telling me a story. And it took me a long time. It took me a long time to reorient the way that I was looking at things and flip it on its head and say, OK, why are the weeds there?

Because they're not growing in clumps anywhere else. Something is clearly going on with the soil over here that is not going on in the soil in the rest of my yard. So I just-- I made the decision right then and there.

I'm going to let them grow during the entire summer. I'm not going to cut them down. I'm not going to jack with it. I'm just going to let them go and see what happens. And what happened was I had amaranth plants that were over seven feet tall.

These things were huge and they were thick. And I knew that it was going to suck when it came time to actually mow them down. But I made the decision that this is what I was going to do. And that's what I did.

And then in the fall, when they started dying back and we had our first real freeze, I won't tell you how I mowed them down. I had to do it with a regular old lawnmower. It sucked because like you're talking about stocks that are as big around as a man's wrist.

So it was brutal. For that 100 square feet, it took like two hours to get it mowed down. And I didn't bag it. I didn't have a bag on the mower. I just-- it's basically called a chop and drop, where everything ended up going right on top of the soil and it was just chopped up.

Oh, hold on. I can hear you. Can you hear me? Yeah, we call you. OK, I'm sorry. I had a message on Zincaster that said that we had lost the connection, so I just close it down. Anyway, OK, so the next year in that same spot, not a single amaranth came up.

And this year, not a single amaranth came up. I didn't do anything. I just let them grow. I chopped them down and put all the chopings down exactly where they were. I used nowhere besides.

I used nothing. And those amaranth, what they were telling me was, there's something wrong here. And if you will back up and sit on your hands and not do a thing, I will fix it for you. You won't have to do anything but wait.

If you can pay me in patience as the currency, then you will not have to go get chemistry to do the job that I am naturally prone to do. I haven't-- if fixed it, the weed fixes the problem that causes the weed to grow there in the first place.

That's a pattern. If you can recognize that pattern, and the only way that you can recognize that pattern is to slow the hell down, sit on your hands, and lip your yard or your farm or your orchard, tell you the stories that it is naturally prone to tell you.

Humans are storytellers, right? I mean, not only are we pattern recognitionists, but we are supreme storytellers yet without patience. If you have a high time preference, you don't want to listen to the story because you're oh so busy and you're chasing yield because you've got to retire.

And all the messaging that has been blown into our heads is all the wrong messaging for being able to slow down and take notice of what's going on around you. If you can do that, then you have a clump of weeds to tell you a story and you realize that's the very weed that I need to have right there

at this time to fix this specific problem. - And looking back at after that, have you learned what the problem was and what the weed has done to fix it? - Amazingly, no. And the reason is because it's fixed and I can move on.

- That's good. - And that's not, and I will admit, I'll be the first to admit that that's not the proper attitude. That I should go through and look at Amaranth and soil problems that cause Amaranth.

But in a very real sense, because I listened to the story and I let the story tell her, tell his story, the problem is actually solved, whether or not I know what got fixed or not. Because if, like let's say that I learned what exactly was the problem, is that gonna cause me to go, oh, I'm gonna buy a soil test, a soil testing kit

and I'm gonna go fix everything all at once. Well, I've entered back into high time preference. If I keep myself in low time preference, I could just look at the land and say, there's a problem here.

The problem has caused a solution to occur in its place. And as long as I don't do anything stupid like hit it with herbicide, that solution is going to solve the problem in the first place and I can just go about my business.

- Yep. - There's a saying in permaculture, the problem is the solution. And that's a very real thing to look at going forward and you can apply it to damn near anything. Like let's say you got a company and you've got an employee that's like self-destructive and I hate to say it like this, but it's so self-destructive

that you know that the guy's gonna get himself killed and there's nothing you can do about it. Well, the guy's gonna end up getting himself killed, problem solved. You just look for somebody who's not that stupid next time.

That's a real harsh way to look at it, but this is the way that nature actually works. And every time that we try to anthropomorphize nature and the thinking that it should be, "Oh, you know, gentle and soft and mother like, oh bullshit."

(laughing) Nature is none of those. - Bristle. - It is brutal and you have to learn how to walk around it without getting your ass killed. - And so with the permaculture side, what I see links with Bitcoin like massively is that you shouldn't try and manage complex systems

and nature is probably the most complex system. And then money and trade and all of that side of things is another hugely complex system. And then you've got humans who are deciding that they think they're smart enough to manage these complex systems.

And every time we do try and manage them, we fuck them up beyond belief. And it sounds like we've done it to money and agriculture. And so it sounds like what now is trying to be done is like step back, lower your time preference, don't think you're smart enough to manage this 'cause you're not, watch it, learn from it,

and then sort of allow it to guide you. And it seems like there's massive links there between the two. - Yeah, react accordingly. I mean, there will be things that come up and we've already seen them come up the block size debate.

And then after that shit was all put to bed with the Bitcoin Cash hard fork, here comes lightning. Humans will find a way. I mean, it's like we can look at humans as either just really horrible all the time or we can look at Adam as something that is going to end up fixing the problem where they're at.

So you got lightning labs come up and all of a sudden now we have lightning. Lightning itself has some problems. Dual funded channels just came out. If people will stop wanting everything to work right out of the box, these solutions will come.

But it's a low time preference issue. It's not, you can't do it in a high time preference issue. Otherwise you'll be right back to square one and you'll fuck it all up. - It's the same about privacy.

People want it now and start switching to shit coins or, well, yeah, but they cannot just wait about it. - Yeah. - By the way. - I was just going to say, you know, this is a specific thing that you're particularly interested in lightning and working on with the rings of fire and everything that you're doing.

- Yes. - So I wondered if you had some insight here on lightning and where you think this is going. And I think we spoke last time about whether lightning could be used to help people communicate and organize themselves in a different way to what's currently being done.

And I wondered if there's anything that can be done with this idea, with permaculture, and if people are having land and trade, whether you think lightning is going to help with this. - Well, we have one example of what Bitcoin Beach is doing or strike as well, like in El Salvador.

And I see parallels to permaculture there as well. Like in permaculture, they like to kind of invent new currencies, which is mostly, well, it's mostly working like in a depth-based way. Like I help you, you help me sort of way, like I think what they call it, leak is one example, labor investment corporation.

Like the idea is you have a virtual currency and quotation marks that if you work eight hours, then other people will come to your house and help you for the same amount of work, or even a bit more.

And this helps communities who don't have much money to start with, but they have the skills and the know-how. But in the sense of lightning, I think it could help villages to create their own little circular economy.

And I want to emphasize really on circular because as I understood when I read the permaculture design of the manual, it was a lot about circulating money within an economy, like specifically in a village.

Like if money comes in and you manage to circulate it within your own community, you make the most use out of it before it leaves your economy again. And this strengthens local economies.

And lightning, with its restrictions, ironically, I think could actually help in that way 'cause people are kind of like forced to stay within. I still there. - I'm here. - I can hear you.

- We may have lost you. - Sorry, I lost you again for a second there. - It would be your podcast if this didn't happen. - Ah, it's a nightmare. It's a nightmare. I don't know what happens here.

I'm waiting for my star link when I go on the road and hopefully that helps me. - Hopefully. - But no, I think I got most of that and I agree. I think lightning is gonna be an incredible tool for all this kind of stuff.

And it seems to me that more and more people are waking up to this. More and more Bitcoin has kind of, I speak to a lot of Bitcoin is because of the show and generally like after the show we'll sit and we'll have a little conversation.

And most people's dreams seem to be around family, land, being self-sustainable, being able to raise a strong family, happiness, health, having good quality food and all this kind of stuff really leads into what we're talking about.

And I almost see it as like once you have some sort of financial stability and you've created a network of trust and people that you can trade with, then the next thing comes really is like health and the agricultural side and the happiness side.

So I kind of see us as like halfway there. And my question to Nanya was, was this something that you got involved in prior to Bitcoin? Or is it something that you started looking into after you had started looking into Bitcoin 'cause they had changed your time preference?

- Now regenerative agriculture and permaculture brought me to Bitcoin. That's sort of my rabbit hole story is, I was doing a lot of research. It started with aquaponics because I became fascinated with the idea of using fish waste in a closed circulation system to grow plants and I won't get into the parameters of that.

But that started the, that was the rim of the rabbit hole and then came stuff like regenerative agriculture and permaculture and I became more and more fascinated with it. And what was funny is that the people that are involved in this have a certain personality, a certain set of wants and needs

that lie completely outside of the fiat system. And the more and more that I would be getting into permaculture, the more and more I'd hear about the problems with the money, which is something that I never thought about.

You know there's a problem. It's like in the movie "The Matrix" where that scene where he's going, it's like a needle in your mind. You know something's wrong, you just can't put your finger on it.

And I was like that. And then what, you know, it became more and more evident that there was a problem with the money. And then at one point or another, I had like, during this time I had heard about Bitcoin and I'd already had my experiences in online gaming and watching those economies get destroyed

within anywhere between six weeks to six months of a release of an online, you know, massively multiplayer game because of a, you know, a gold duplication bug or something like that. And so I just, like everybody else, I dismissed it.

But, you know, just it hung around, it stayed in my head. And then I was listening to Jack Spiritco's podcast, this survival podcast. And he got to the point where he was like, "I can't ignore this shit anymore.

"You're just gonna have to figure out how to use Bitcoin." And I go, "Okay, fine." And it was about 250 bucks a coin at the time. It was 2015. And so I finally, you know, I spun up a Coinbase account and bought like, you know, one Bitcoin or like 0.97, I threw 250 bucks at it.

And it was like, you know, just under a Bitcoin. And the first thing I did is turn around and gave Jack Spiritco a point to Bitcoin, which was like 50 bucks for a year subscription because I wanted to support his podcast.

It turns out to be one of the most expensive subscriptions I've ever got. But, but that started, that started the rabbit hole journey. So I was already inside one rabbit hole and then I got into this rabbit hole and lo and behold, all the people that I started meeting in Bitcoin,

I'm like, oh my God, they sound exactly like the same people. They were all reading the same Taleb, poor guy. They were all, they were all reading this whole thing. They were all reading the sovereign individual.

I mean, all these guys, and most of them were not talking about Bitcoin, yet they were reading the same damn books. And I'm like, okay, something's going on. There's something here. I got two completely different worlds that are colliding.

And as they collide, they are so similar that they just kind of start growing into each other without too much contact. - This is your pattern and recognition. - Exactly. - Because I go in the same patterns that I saw in Bitcoin were the same patterns that I had just come from.

And that's one of the reasons why I immediately got hooked. 'Cause I'm like, these are the same people. They're all, these are the same problems. We're all, there's clearly something going on, something very, very wrong in the world.

And here's two completely separate groups of people that are working on the same problem from two completely different directions. And as they collide, they become stronger and stronger and stronger, so I definitely got into Bitcoin after permaculture.

But it's like I never left one world for another one. It's almost like I dragged one world right behind me as I came into this one. - The parallels are striking. You also then have this, what I consider more like rare, like coming from permaculture, discovering Bitcoin and accepting it.

It seems the other way around it seems this easier. Like a lot of Bitcoiners, like especially since we had our pot interview together Max, a lot of Bitcoiners reached out to me like talking about permaculture and I met so many new people who are into both.

And it's fantastic to see that happening. And lately, what's his name? Seth's Tonight, the guy with the mood and character. It's just Avatar. He discovered, and also he wondered, like why are there so many permaculture people that seem to hate money and you, none of you, you explained that they are called purple breeders.

And I remember I have come across this term before, but I don't exactly know what it means. Like why are they called like that? - Okay, purple breeders, about the best way that I can explain it is that in the United States, we have two political parties.

Democrats are represented by the blue color. Republicans and conservatives are represented by red color. When you get a mix of the two, like somebody that has like some ability to see conservative issues, yet are still strongly liberal, they're purple.

So we have this term where we call them purple states, like where they're like 50, 50 blue and red and you end up with a purple state. In permaculture, the purple breeders have a tendency to understand the importance of permaculture but get the basic ethics really wrong because they try to drag it back over

into a supremely liberal culture where wealth redistribution is the same. And I'll give you an example. There are three basic ethics that were written by Bill Mullison and David Holmgren in the original books of permaculture.

And the third one was return to surplus. What they were talking about is that you need to make sure that all the agricultural like in food waste at whatever goes back into the soil so that the soil can process those waste and collect up what would have been like either burned or thrown away or, you know, thrown, you know,

taken to a landfill. It was like everything stays on the farm or your ranch or whatever. And when you get to somebody who says takes that ethic and then reworks it and says redistribute the wealth.

That's when you know you're dealing with a purple breeder because then it's not, hey, take all the waste or like the fruit, like the fruit vegetables that are slightly blemished instead of not selling those, you just give them to the poor.

And I'm not against giving things to the poor. That's not what I mean by this. It's just, there are some people that are really militant about using these types of things in the context of, well, you need to just give it away.

And the point is is that no, I need to keep it on my farm, put it back into the soil so that next year I actually grow more produce. And the more I grow, the more I get to a situation where eventually it's like, I've got so much stuff and the soil is so well done that now I can start just throwing like cases and cases to the food bank,

but that's gotta be your choice. It can't be somebody making that choice for you. - Yeah, wealth distribution of any kind is just stealing from one to give to another and it never ends up fair.

It just never works. But it's the same in any walk of life. You can want to go out and just wanna help everyone and not care about creating wealth for yourself or an income for yourself, but you're much more useful to much more people when you have more produce, more time and more money.

And so that's the same as what you're saying. It's like you wanna actually make sure that your land is producing at its best before you start to give back 'cause it's more efficient that way.

- Yeah, and what the things that can be done with a blown out hay field, and when I mean blown out hay field, I mean like something that has just been denuded to the point where it barely grows a good hay anymore.

If you manage it properly, within two or three years you get to a point where you've restored a good bit of the soil and then after if you keep those management practices up, five to 10 years later from examples that I've seen, and I've seen a lot of examples, it's amazing just how fast the soil will repair itself.

So the more you repair that soil and then get to the point where it's now repaired and you still keep jamming stuff back into it, it ends up being highly productive, like the kind of production that we just don't see.

And you'll see it on some farms that have been doing this forever in a day, there's not many of them, but if you go to a commodity farm out in the Midwest, you pick up, just go out into a farm field, pick up some of the soil and it's same.

- Right, that's dirt. - Yeah, that's true dirt farming where basically it's just the dirt becomes a transport vehicle for the chemistry that you dump on the soil and it just makes it worse and worse and worse.

- That sounds horrible, that does not sound like the natural way. - It is horrible. - And so what you're saying is they just pump it full of chemicals and they are this sort of fake nutrients and the soil just holds it.

- Well, there's no actual nutrition in our food and at least in the United States and honestly in a lot of places in the world, but definitely the United States, there's a-- - That's basically, it's just basically hidden inflation, like the nutrient density just going lower and lower for the same price you can get the same tomatoes

but they're not as nutrition anymore. - Right, that's pretty worrying. I mean, if we're talking about trying to raise a family and make sure that they're healthy and happy, well, one of the most important things is gonna be to have nutritionally dense food and make sure that your family are healthy and if you're going to the shop

and you're buying fruit and veg and meat and fish that has not got any other nutrition in it, then that is not a good start. So is the only way round this to either produce yourself in the correct way or to buy from other farmers that are doing this in the right way?

And if that is the case, then how do you sort of monitor that it is actually nutritionally dense? What's the way of checking to see how nutritionally dense a food is? Is there some way to find this out?

Like a chemically or like, how do you go about doing that? - I think the best detection tool is your tongue. Like I have tasted it myself like freshly grown tomato from where I know that they use right practices.

They taste amazing. But then if you go to the supermarket, you buy like a regular old potato that has been factory farmed, you taste that it's just like watery. So you can trust your tongue, I believe.

- I agree. - So you can only, but there's no way of, what I'm trying to get at is there's no way of, for example, you take two tomatoes. One is some fiat bullshit that you buy in the supermarket.

And one is beautifully grown by one of you two in the correct manner and picked. And you check the two of those. Is there a way to see how much nutrients is in there in a lab or something like that?

Or is it literally, there was, okay. You can, but here's the issue is that those chemistry, the chemical tests that need to be performed on a, like let's say a well-grown versus a crabbily grown tomato, that's an expensive test.

And I mean, in fact, it's like, it could be like just to get a basic understanding of what's occurred nutritionally in a fruit. It could be like 40 bucks to 150 bucks and nobody's gonna do that.

So the next best way, like Chino was saying was use your tongue. The best way after that, however, if you can, which is also a relatively expensive proposition, but much more fun is to go out and visit the dam farm.

Most of these people that are trying to do this are also really good educators. Joel Salatin is one of the best ones at it. And if I was in anywhere close to Virginia, I would go out to Polyface Farm just to go meet him but also to see exactly how they're doing what they're doing.

And he's like, you can come out to my farm at any time and you can look around and I will show you stuff and I'll teach you what I can teach you. And that's a good way because then you could put your hands into that soil and look at it and smell it.

And see, the thing about it is that there's, I believe wholeheartedly that even though the human condition has forgotten most of this ancient, ancient, you know, instructions or this ancient knowledge, I still believe that your brain can identify certain things and as long as you actually seek the truth,

wanna go find out that it will start stimulating ancient knowledge to come back to the fore. I mean, we don't know enough about the human brain or neurology to be able to say one way or another that what I just said is poppycock or not.

I do, I have this tendency to believe that this nature is inherent in the human condition and that when you pick up really shitty soil and smell it, you know it smells bad and you go into a forest and you pick up a handful of that and it has this airy smell and that airy smell is from Actinomycetes and like a type of fungus

that is necessary for trees and plants to grow because it forms symbiotic relationships with the root structures of all those plants. It makes this smell, you can smell good soil, I believe me, I know, I've repaired so much soil around this house that I can now dig into places that were almost sheet rock in hardness, like concrete,

I put chickens on them for a season and now I can like dig my hand into soil after one year without a tool, without anything, I can just grab soil and I'd smell it and I can smell like certain places, smell sour, certain places, smell, you know, the way that I needed to smell and I can tell the difference because I'm learning

and this information is now starting to come back to me. The same thing I believe can be done by taste like Gino was saying, just use your tongue. It's okay, you'll figure it out. It's just not, you're just not gonna have all the knowledge immediately.

Again, this is a low time preference versus high time preference issue. - Can you know what was your soil like when I know you put a lot of thought into positioning of the property, where the sun's coming up, making sure that there was sunlight where you're trying to grow and that it wasn't shaded

and it was a lot of time and effort went into finding the right plot, but did you find a plot that had soil that was to the grade you wanted or are you now sort of working on this because you're not happy with it?

- Yeah, well, when we got it, there was still barley growing on it, like a few months later, they did the last harvest and the soil completely dry, it was dirt, basically dirt. It's this distinction between dirt and soil.

The soil is rich of organic matter and dirt is not and this is what we currently have, like, we are trying to rebuild the soil. So luckily, just right next the year after when corona started to happen, we got blocked down.

Before that, there was barely growing anything. Maybe that's just a few patches of more barley that was forgotten for some seeds in the soil, but then three months later in May, when we came back, it was a jungle, like everywhere weeds and weeds and weeds you couldn't walk through.

It was amazing to see, I was surprised, actually, to see it full of weeds. And I was happy because if there wasn't weed, then something must have been really utterly wrong with the soil, like talking about persistent herbicides that just prohibited any growth.

Yeah, so this weed, we just let grow, like for the second year now. And my plan is to, when the rainy season starts again, to just chop and drop it, like what Nanya was doing with, what was it called, Arm Aromant?

- Aromant. - Aromant, yeah. Like, I want to do the same, just keep it growing, then cut it down and leave it as a mulch. So the soil underneath is protected from the winds and from the sun.

So this is my initial plan to just start rebuilding the soil. And next year, hopefully, I can then start planting my pyronetries, which then further shaded and everything. So I'm far away from good soil, but I'm really looking forward to this moment that I can just dig my hand into it and take it.

Because right now you need to work to break up the soil and get something out of it. - So this is a, this chop and drop is a sort of technique that is used to keep the soil moist and get to keep the nutrients in, is it?

- Yeah, basically you will have the mulch right where you need it. You don't need to import it from anywhere else. - Okay, and then sort of after that, is there another step that you've got the mulch everywhere and you're leaving the soil?

None of you talked about having chickens to help with the soil. I know that untapped growth is doing things with, obviously, his cattle to help with the soil. Is this a technique that is widely known throughout this community?

And it's about getting fertilizer back into the soil? Is that the sort of idea? - Well, it's more than just fertilizer. People look at like, oh, well, just throw some cow manure on it for fertilizer.

It, we're really missing so much more out of the entire issue. And this, using animals to regenerate land is where we start crossing back over, I mean, it's still linked to permaculture, but this is getting into more regenerative agriculture and pasture management and stuff like that.

And here's what's going on, kind of. I mean, there's a lot more to it than I can articulate here, but animals belong on the land. And anybody who tells you different either doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about or they're lying to you.

Now, I hate to be that harsh about it, but that's the way it is. Because you got all these idiots out there saying that we got to take, we got to not eat meat and all this, you know, can't have cows anywhere.

Not, you know, I don't like feed lots either, but they're talking about just getting them all off the land. And I'm like, you will kill the land because like microbes are absolutely essential being in your gut and you've had them ever since the first day of your birth.

Like you can look at animals the same way. Without them, the world does not do, does not function in the way it's supposed to function. So people like untapped growth are using what's called planned grazing, planned rotational grazing.

And they'll keep like an untapped case. He'll keep cows bunched up together with electric fencing and that simulates predator. 'Cause we don't have them anymore. And honestly, I flip flop back and forth between whether or not that's good or bad because if we can simulate that with electric fencing,

that's fine, but you wanna keep the animals bunched up so that they do a couple of things. One, they eat everything and not just the stuff that they like because at this point, they're kind of not able to roam around and they have to literally get the nutrition from all the stuff because if they eat only the stuff

that they want, the stuff that they don't want are the only things that go to seed and then next thing you know, the next season around, they have less of the stuff that they want to eat and more of the stuff that they don't like.

So they've got to be bunched up together so that they compete with each other for nutrition. And then they trample and they disturb the soil. And when they're trampling, they're trampling on their urine and they're trampling on their fecal matter and they trample that into the ground and kind of mix it.

And obviously the manure does have a lot of nitrogen in it, but here's the thing that it has more of. It has soil bacteria that has been incubated in the gut of the cow and it's made a shit ton more soil bacteria.

So how did it get there? Soil bacteria is on the grass that they eat. It goes into their rumen and into all their stomachs and it happens to be a great place for this stuff to actually reproduce.

It doesn't kill it. They don't digest them. It literally gives them an incubator to just have sex and create more bacteria and all kinds of stuff. And then they poop that back out on the other side and they trample it into the soil.

So now you're left with even more soil biology. That ends up being critical to the plant's growth and so far as they're contact with their roots contract, contact with all of the little critters that just got dumped out of the backside of the cow.

And then after three days he moves them off and that lets that into another paddock for another three days and that lets where they were recover and they technically depending on how good or bad the soil is there, the cows won't come back to that paddock for another year.

So it'll have a whole year of regeneration and roots will grow deeper that year, grass will grow taller that year, moisture content will be increased that year and then rinse and repeat. And you'll see just how much soil building can be done.

- We have at the end of my garden we have a big field where a farmer puts a load of cattle there once a year. And I've noticed that wherever there's like these big patches of growth where like the grass and everything else that is growing there is growing so much better than anywhere else is always in a circular pattern

and it's where there was a cow path. - Yep. - That just, I mean, knowing nothing about permaculture or agriculture really, just that is firsthand experience for me of saying, there's obviously something going on there and it's obviously helping with growth.

- Yeah, on the surface most people will look at it and say, oh, well it's just the nitrogen that came out of the cow manure and the urine. And that's true, that's not to be dismissed. But in my opinion, the more important part is the microbiology that's been added to the soil because it got incubated in the cow and then pooped out.

So now there's even more. And the, like, you know, Chino was saying that soil is different than dirt. Dirt is just like mineralized or mineral sand. You know, just little chunks of minerals, iron pyrite, clay, stuff that's inorganic.

Soil is when you take that mineral soil and you add life to it, it is not just the carbon component, it's the actual living, breathing critters that cause a whole soil ecosystem to evolve.

And that's what all the soils were before we started plowing them up. And I mean, like topsoil in the United States pre-Columbian or, you know, pre-Columbus landing was something like, I don't know, I think topsoil, there's people that said that it was four foot deep.

You know, some people are saying eight foot deep of just topsoil. Now, the big, the largest export of the United States is topsoil because of erosion. It goes into the rivers and it gets dumped out into the sea.

It's like, and that's not an exaggeration. By ton, whatever the United States exports, whether it's wheat or corn or whatever, you can look at the tonnage and then compare to that to the tonnage of soil loss in the United States and it's like 10x.

That's every year. - That's also an insane amount of carbon dioxide that is being released. - Yeah, and that ends up being a whole other thing that I guess we can get into. Chino, do you wanna kind of like go through what plants do when they're in the soil regarding carbon dioxide intake from the air and eggs you take?

- I think we all know where we're going with this, but let's start this way. There was this experiment. I don't know who contacted it or when, but you just take a plant in a pot and you put it on a scale and you just take care of the pot of the plant, keep watering it, keep it alive.

And as it grows, the pot and the plant, they start to become heavier and we all should know if we paid attention in school what is actually going on there, taking in carbon dioxide and they turn it into starch.

And when a plant dies, the roots, they decompose also under the soil and animals, they eat it, animals die also under the soil. It basically leads to building topsoil, which is organic matter in the ground and organic matter is carbon based.

Yeah, if you start destroying the topsoil, also all this carbon needs to go somewhere and a lot of it goes into the atmosphere and this is currently the pot topic, pun intended, which is warming up our planet.

Yeah, they look not looking at this, like it's hard to put into numbers, but the number is astronomical. I said it like an offers, but with you, Max, I was at 2,000 million tons per year.

Yeah, that's a crazy number, I remember you saying, 'cause I remember comparing it to, there's all the Bitcoin mining flood that was going on and then it's like comparing that to what you're talking about and it's where you might as well, I'm not fucking bother talking about mining because it's tiny in comparison.

Yeah, I know it's what about us and but it needs to be pointed out that we are having bigger issues to deal with than just Bitcoin mining. Absolutely, and I liked just going slightly off the topic.

Nanyo, I was listening to your pod the other day and you were talking about going through the Tesla charging points and then mapping out whether 250 mile radius from there to find out actually how green the energy sources are and you were using some type of special software to do that.

Have you got any further along with that? Have you uncovered anything yet? Yeah, here's gonna be the issue with those maps as they start coming out is that it needs to be recognized that unless I know exactly what the mix is of like electricity fuel or electricity generation fuel types like whether it's hydro or oil or gas or whatever,

that that particular charging station is getting which means that I would have to know exactly what that portion of the grid's inputs are and that's like a PhD level dissertation which I'm not gonna do.

So what I have to do is I have to make some assumptions is that given the proximity of these things, what's more likely to be used? Is it hydro or whatever? So there's gonna be a very good argument that could be made against these maps saying, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about and I will be the first one to admit

that there's gonna be some serious issues here. However, it actually does need to be done and what I've just discovered so far is that there's not a real way that Elon can tell me that the majority of the electricity used at the charging stations are renewable, it's just not possible.

I mean, at some, depending on like, if there's more, like for instance, there's more renewables in California, okay, in California, the mix may be more slided towards renewables that he's using, but out in the Midwest, man, it's a lot of coal and natural gas being burned out in the Midwest, dude, not a whole lot of hydropower.

So in those stations, unless they're gonna build transmission lines from California to Nebraska, no, he's gonna be using the predominant coal, but this is gonna, this is a larger body of work that I need to work on for the next, probably few weeks to even get close to it 'cause there's 10 different or seven different kinds of fuels.

I've got the data sets and I've got access to a geographic information system to map those by latitude and longitude of all these different things. But it's a bigger job and it's not as easy to say, well, clearly he's wrong or it would be just as hard to say clearly he's right and it's mostly renewables.

Truth be told, it's very difficult to find that out. - I have to say, like I'm glad you said I was gonna take a lot longer 'cause I was listening the other night and you were like, "Yeah, it was on Friday, I think you dropped the pod "and you were talking about, oh, well, over the weekend, "I'm gonna do the rest of it."

And I was like, is this guy fucking Ironman or what is going on here? Like, how is he gonna work all this out no matter how clever this software is over a weekend? Like, I can barely take the dog for a while.

- Oh, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, no, it'll, I mean, it'll take a while and it's a worthy question to take time on. - Yeah, really interesting. And there's so much fun, this is what I find so funny is there's so much fun against Bitcoiners and mining and energy and every other thing they can throw at us and how many other people

from other sectors are having these type of conversations and actually trying to look at, you know, what have humans done in the past and how can we get back to a state where something is sustainable?

'Cause clearly nothing that is going on right now across the world is sustainable. Like, it's absolutely fucking mental what is going on. And then you look back and, you know, we touched on it earlier with what was discussed from Graham Hancock and the rainforest and burning of soil and all these kinds of practices

that were being done by ancient humans. And now we've forgotten all of that but it seems that so much of what happened in the past was better than what we have now and even the gold standard wasn't perfect but it was better than what we have now.

So it just seems the whole world is so lost and we've lost our way. And it seems the only people who are asking these questions, you're saying about, you know, watching these weeds and letting them tell you a story, it seems we're the only ones that are doing it.

So I don't understand the constant attacks 'cause it, if anyone's gonna work this shit out and make a change, it seems as though it's gonna be a Bitcoiner or many of us. - Everybody's distracted.

I mean, we've over-financialized everything that we could possibly over-financialize and everybody's worried about chasing yield. They don't have time. They don't have time because it's like everybody's so terrified that they're not gonna be able to retire and I don't even know what the hell that means

but like it's almost as if we've been forced into this narrative that is you're born, you have hopefully a happy childhood then you go to school for God knows how long so that you can get a job so that you can start chasing yield so that you can spend the last remaining years of your life doing nothing.

That narrative just sounds like a really piss-poor story to me. - Me too. - It just sounds like we're waiting, it sounds like we're waiting to die from the time that we're born that we're not living to die.

We're not experiencing stuff and then die. No, we're waiting. We're in like some kind of holding pattern that we're just waiting to die. And I think for the great guts and feathers of humanity that's the narrative that's been played.

And because of that narrative, we're not spending time looking at this shit. It's gonna take somebody like a permacultureist who says, not only am I not scared of what happens when I get too old to do shit, not only am I not scared of like being wealthy by the time that I'm 30 and can't drive a Lambo

but I am going to devote my life to figuring this shit out because it is a worthy mechanism for the future of my children who possibly won't have to worry about this shit or at least if I can get them interested that they will work on the problem too.

'Cause this problem, if it's, I mean, we're never gonna solve the problem and would you use the term sustainability? I honestly, when I hear that word, it sends chills at my spine because I can sustain a shitty system for a long time.

When I hear sustainability, the first thing that comes up to my mind is so it just remains shitty. Whereas regenerative is the system that I like to see in place because that means that it'll produce more next year.

If it's done right, it doesn't matter what the system is. If it's done correctly and we have to figure out what the correct steps are to do that. If we can, any system that undergoes regeneration rather than sustaining ends up producing more to next year.

And so that's sort of where I, yeah, that's sort of the end of that spiel. - It's almost like the supply function of Bitcoin, which is trending to zero is the same with this permaculture.

It's not, like you say, it's not about sustainability. It's like continuously getting better until we fix it. And it's that same trend rather than just the trend that we're on and they do seem to follow.

And I'd be very interested to see how we solve the issue of like trade and commerce between Bitcoiners because realistically, not everyone is going to want to have a farm or have a small holding or do these kind of things.

Not everyone is interested in that, but I think most people are going to be interested in having good quality produce and trade. So, you know, you might have a brilliant mathematician or software developer who is, they don't want to be messing around in the dirt, right?

They don't want to do that, but they want to make sure that they can feed their family what's best and they might be working on core or some other Bitcoin software. And then you have other people who are going to say, well, actually, no, I love this.

Like I want to be out in nature. I want to be fixing the soil. I want to be working with the castle. I want to be doing all these kinds of things. And so, my kind of thinking is to build communities where people can trade between one another.

And hopefully, Sats is going to be the standard Sats, is going to be the unit of account. And it's about finding a way that we can distribute this produce and not using the fiat system, but between Bitcoiners.

And, you know, I have no idea how we do that at this point, but it seems like it's going to be very, very important in the coming years. That's one of the reasons what you just described about like trade in the community and obviously the vision of labor is still very good solution to scale societies.

That's why I wrote this article for Citadel 21, Bitcoin and Permaculture, because I wanted to bring in this notion like we all dream of citadels. And I think a citadel needs at least one permaculturist who takes care of producing the food for the community.

It's not only food, but it's the core principle and permaculture. And it's so important, right? Like, it's like the most important thing. You've got to put the right fuel into your body to make it work properly and your mind.

Yeah, without it, we're going to die. Pretty much it is. Have you had any thoughts on how we achieve this? It's pretty much applying the permaculture principles in a citadel, like, of course, rebuilding the soils, making sure that the system has positive self-reinforcing feedback loops.

So next year, the yield will get higher and higher and you have to put it less in this work. And if it can feed the citadel, like every inhabitant, and we have surplus, then with the surplus, even citadels, then could manage to trade amongst each other.

Yeah, it seems that's going to be have to be the way. And so many people in this space have so many different skills. And what I've found is like, when I'm dealing with Bitcoiners, everyone does each other little favors.

They all look after each other like a bit of a brotherhood kind of thing. So I wonder if that will be the way where things are a little bit. I don't know if fair is the right word, but there's less middlemen, less bullshit corruption, governance in the way of like real trade.

And so there is enough people in this industry that have enough different skills that almost everything can be done. What I'd be really interested to see is if we can completely cut out the current systems and really work between one another and that I don't really see anything missing in my mind from the people that I interact with.

There's so much knowledge, there's so many skills. Is there anything you think that we're missing to both of you guys? Or anything you think we're really missing may even be like distribution or something like that.

But that would scuff of these ideas. Well, I would the way that I look at it is that, you know, what Chino is saying was I what he was just saying, I look at is you just stack sets and continue with that, you know, trying to figure out how to be a better educator.

As to if we look at if we start looking at this from a temporal standpoint as to when this is all done, when the middle man is cut out, when all this bullshit stops, we are automatically putting ourselves on a path into high time preference and that a solution must be found.

A solution must be found. I'm like, OK, the solution is here. It's just going to take time. I've already resigned myself to the fact that I will be long in the dirt. Before I get to see the things that I envisioned in my mind right now.

And I'm OK with that. I mean, it's a it's a hard thing to do to plan a tree under which shade you will never get relief from. But it has to be done. This is the seventh generation, you know, seven generation thinking.

This is how we used to act as human beings, where we were we weren't so enamored with what's happening right now as to what can we do for our, you know, for our kids? And what will our kids do for their kids?

And what can we instill and install in those guys that will carry this thing forward? Because that's that in my, I look at it from the story of the weed standpoint. All I had to do was wait.

The fact that it fixed the soil well within one year, obviously well within my lifetime, was a bonus. I don't, I am not in requirement of a bonus on something as large as this problem because we're having to rewind 250 years and more of complete and utter bullshit.

I mean, you know, it's like, yes, the Fiat system had a lot to do with that bullshit. But honestly, the agricultural revolution was something we don't look at enough as to the amount of destruction that thing is wrought for instance.

Everybody is familiar with WTF happened in 1971.com, right? Okay, what the thing that they have yet to put in there is the fact that it also in 1971 in the United States, the Secretary of Agriculture, Secretary Butz, was the Secretary of Agriculture or the Agriculture Secretary for Richard Nixon.

In the same year that Richard Nixon took us off the gold standard was the exact same year that Secretary Butz told all the farmers in the United States to go big or go home. And that was the introduction in the United States of like almost 100% commodity farming.

Barley, wheat, corn, soybean, canola, you name it, monocrop after monocrop after monocrop. And you could kiss the 40 acre family farm, goodbye, because there was not going to be any subsidies for you.

And all the big guys got the subsidies. And that I really wish the guys at 1971 would put that into their, you know, what happened to agriculture after 1971 because that was a pivot point just like taking us off the gold standard.

And it's done just as much if not more destruction to American agriculture than the gold standard thing. So no, man, I'm just like, it's, it's such a, it's such a big problem. And it's so long.

And we've forgotten so much that I'm actually just going to resign myself to be happy. If I can get my kids to understand what soil is, how it works, at least in a cursory way, what it does and why it's important.

And if I can get them to hold those values, then everywhere they go, they'll make soil better. And they'll be like little soil building machines. So interesting. I'd never, I'd never knew, like you said, it's not in WTF happened in 1971.

Maybe we need to reach out and have a word with those guys, but it sounds like basically it just centralized agriculture and completely destroyed any small to medium sized farm. And it seems that's kind of what's happened, not just in agriculture, but it, but in everything.

And this centralization, you talked about it right in the beginning with like one river is throwing flowing one way and all value must go that way. And that's not really like natural. That's something that needs to change.

And me and Gino were talking about this before you jumped on the call with people who have children or plan to have children seem to have a different view of the world. And like you mentioned, oh, well, I'm happy to be in the ground as long as my children can benefit from it or my children's children can benefit from it.

I wonder whether this is another thing that fiat culture is forcing down people's throats this idea of either because of environmental issues. People are saying, Oh, well, I don't want to have kids.

I see so many people like my age group are like, I don't want to have kids because it's going to destroy the planet and my shut the fuck up, just have kids, but there's a lot of that. And it's a lot of it in mainstream media about, you know, humans being the problem.

I wonder whether that's something that's going to be won over in people's minds is actually it's not about not having kids. It's about having kids, making them better than you are yourself instilling your values and between you and your family, making sure that the future is bright.

And it seems that there's a big battle and there's like a head button here between fiat culture and what is right. Oh, there is, but here's the, here's the fun thing about, you know, Darwin, you know, and evolution is that the people that are screaming not to have kids because God forbid humans are always bad.

It can never be good are the people that are not going to have kids. So they have no place to put their treasure trove of shitty ideas into. Guess what happens? Because memes, those ideas die because the people who are having kids are the people that do see value in having children do see value in giving their ideas to their children.

Those are the ones that thrive. This is just, this is evolution 101 and every time I see one of the blue hair freaky people that are screeching at the top of their lives, I'm like, good, like everybody that like most of the people in the United States that I see, if they've got like an unnatural color

nose of hair, I can, I can bet, bet you like 10, like 10 bucks, I bet you I can walk up to him and say, I like Donald Trump and they will freak the fuck out. That's what's going on here. Now I can't clearly any other country.

They may be doing the same thing and have a completely different, you know, style, but I guarantee you here, nine times out of 10, unnatural hair color means staunch liberal. Same head, same in the UK.

Now, yeah, it's, it's just weird. But again, this is, this is just evolution playing itself out and you can do it in so many different ways, whether or not, like when I was going back to, I'll go back to untapped growth.

If he keeps his cows spread apart and on there too long, they eat all only the stuff that they want because they're not competing. And so guess what gets to grow? The shit that they don't want because they didn't need it.

And now they get to go to seed, right? It's the same thing only with ideas as they're transmitted from one generation to the next generation. They don't, it doesn't have to be my DNA. Ideas are everywhere.

They're in every form. There are ideas are in the form of energy. They're in the form of, of DNA, they're in the form of ideas and memes. And they all... I really like this comparison between genes and memes, how they have very similar spreading patterns.

Like ideas are definitely like one layer on top of genes. Well, Richard Dawkins is the guy that came up with a word for memes and he is a, he was, or is a geneticist. He's not exactly my cup of tea because he's a staunch atheist.

But hey, he's perfectly entitled to whatever his own opinions on that is. But he really, really understands transmission of genes and he started thinking along the lines of, well, if genes do it, then what do other kinds of patterned information do?

And he came up with memes. And that's, so you can thank Richard Dawkins for the construction of, of the definition of meme. Thank you, Richard Dawkins. Yeah. Also, what you said about the cows, if you leave them too on, too long and they eat what they want and leave the bad stuff.

If managed, well, this is also how we can prevent what happens in the movie "Adiocracy." We have seen that one. Yes. Yeah. Several times. Yeah, this is my only concern about this world that the stupid just thrive and multiple placates and the intelligent people.

They just die out because they don't want to have children. But since having that Bitcoiners who, like, for the most part, they want to have kids and they want to provide them a good life, I have hope again.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's one of the things that I noticed about the culture as well is that and the amount of Bitcoiners that has started talking about land and getting away from the city, you don't have to be totally self-sustainable.

It's okay to reach out and buy goods and services from another person. But the more food you can grow yourself, the more resilient you become. You don't have to be 100% resilient where you don't have to talk to anybody ever.

I honestly think that that would be bad. If I had a farm that grew everything that I needed and I didn't need to reach out to anybody else for anything, that's a lonely kind of existence.

I think trade helps with making friends, developing networks. But the way it's done now is like, it's so centralized, we still have trade, yet we still can't reach out to somebody else. It's way beyond the pale and corrupted as well, where it's like one has to win and one has

to lose, there's in traditional trade, or I don't know if traditional is the right word, but what I'm used to in terms of trade and business, kind of especially in the corporate world is like, I need to rip someone's eyes out and take all I can from them on this deal,

because what I make right now is most important and that differs from the Bitcoin community, which is you have a reputation, you want to treat others right and they treat you right, because if you don't, your reputation goes away very quickly and so it's more of a low

time preference thinking and people are happy to know that, well, this person probably isn't going to fuck me over, because if they do, they're going to lose their reputation and over time, you know, I can reach out to Chino and say, can you introduce me to someone who can help me with this?

And he will say, okay, yeah, I trust this person implicitly, here you are, and I can lean on that trust, because that is how these networks grows, and that's quite a refreshing idea, and I think things are much more efficient and enjoyable, because you actually can make

friends, because you know, oh, this person isn't just trying to rip my eyes out, they're selling something that they're producing and I'm trading it with something that I'm producing and we're both getting a good deal.

And personally, I'm really grateful that I am part of this community that we're building. Yeah, yeah, because it's like, you know, we always talk about, oh, it's the network effects of Bitcoin, I'm like, oh, yeah, have you ever thought about the network effects of Bitcoiners?

Because that's happening in parallel, and some of us see it, but a lot don't, and they don't realize that we've constructed this, like a, like my personal network, it's ridiculous. I mean, from God, from South America to Central America, like I talked like chat with people

in Australia and the Netherlands and people from fricking Hong Kong, sending me stuff, and I'm like, what the hell just happened? How the hell do I know all these people? And it's because, I would say it was because of Bitcoin, but it's because the network that's

naturally, organically developing as the actual node count and minor count of Bitcoin develops their own network, it's sort of like an onion, where there's layers of networking that are going on that we're all enveloping the same core idea of sound money.

Yeah, it's an incredible network, and there are so many people with so many skills, and just this kind of idea that's tying people together, it is, it's incredibly powerful. And before getting involved in Bitcoin, I had friends around the world, but I really feel

now I could probably reach out to a Bitcoiner in almost any country and vice versa if they ever reached out to me and said, oh, you know, I'm in London, do you want to grab a drink, or can I have somewhere to stay, or pretty much anyone, anywhere you can link, and anyone

with any skill you can link, and that's not something I've really experienced outside of this at all. Yeah. I mean, either, but I might also just be too young to have experienced other networks.

Like, I don't think I can count LinkedIn as a network, just some headhunters adding me to the list, but that's not a network, so sorry. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Well, guys, look, I think this has been a really good rip.

I think that we've covered a lot of topics. There were a couple of things that we sort of started to get into, and we haven't completely, and I don't know whether you guys want to run with them.

You guys will probably have some in your mind as well, but for me too, we're burning of soil and the stuff with Graham Hancock and the rainforest, you know, bringing in different trees and actually being able to use that soil was something that I've had in my head for a while.

The other thing we talked very briefly on mycelium, and I remember, again, listening to a talk from Paul Stamans and learning about mycelium for the first time and being absolutely fucking blown away by it, I was like, what the hell?

Like, these mushrooms are doing all this stuff, and they've got these networks underground, and they're linked to the trees and all this stuff, and that completely blew me away. So there are two things we touched on, and I wondered if you had any thoughts on, but

you guys might also have some ideas of things that you wanted to go into before we sort of wrap things up. Well, yeah, I just wanted to say, permaculture is a fucking deep rabbit hole, maybe even deeper than Bitcoin, I don't know, I haven't reached the end of either of those, and there's still so much that I personally to learn.

I was really glad to finally talk with you, Nanya, because I think you have a vast body of knowledge when it comes to this way more than I do, and yeah, I don't think we can ever finish talking about permaculture, and I know this is a Bitcoin podcast, so we should

get too deep into that, maybe you would want to start a second podcast just for that max. Well, I think this podcast really is trying to touch on those things. It is really, we'll always link it back to Bitcoin, we have the ideas of Bitcoin, but to make the changes we're talking about, we need more than just our money, we do need

to have a nutritionally dense food, we do need to have a place where a family can feel safe and secure, and we need to build these networks, so I think for me this is what this show is all about, and learning from both you guys has been really, really interesting.

I'll give you something to part with, something that we can go into in-depth later, like not later today, but like if you want to have me back on, but the mini ice age, do you know what I'm talking about?

It was also called the little ice age, and dates on it vary from like 1303 to 1860 or 1450 to 1700, it varies, but there was definitely a little ice age, so clearly the planet got much cooler, and people are asking how, why?

There's one theory that is interesting, and it's not mine, but I was reading yet one more soil book, and it began with almost the entire diary of the guy that was with the conquistadors when the New World had been just discovered, they had made their way all the way over to

Chile and started, and this was the first time that the Europeans went down the Amazon, they did not go up the Amazon, they started in Chile and went down, and so they traversed the entire length of that river from literally the western seashore, or not seashore, but

the Andes Mountains on the west-hand side of South America, all the way to the mouth of the Amazon. When they did that, this guy was riding down, this is one of the very first times that we ever heard about terra-predissoils, which are these black carbon-rich soils in the Amazon

that we know was anthropomorphic in nature, and so far that humans did them, they didn't just naturally occur, so the indigenous people were burying and making charcoal in gigantic holes all around their encampments, because they had discovered that you can grow a lot

of food plants on those things, well, they had been doing that for thousands of years, and one of the things that this guy said in his diary was he was talking about the population density of the Amazon, and when he got back to Spain, because he was one of the only people

that survived this trip, they thought he was crazy, because he was talking about millions of people, and they were like, "There is no way that the soil of that," because by this time, by the time he got back, other people had gone there, and they knew something about

jungle soils, and jungle soils are really crappy soil, except in these pockets of the Amazon, so this guy was saying, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not a million people along this thing, and they thought he was just ape-shit crazy, so when they went back,

like another, you know, the second time that they went up the Amazon, there was nobody there, and they were saying, "See, it was impossible that you saw this many people," they were all dead because of smallpox, that's why they weren't there, and it took 10 years

for them to all die, it was a complete devastation of humanity, so nobody was there to manage the crops that were planted, nobody was there to make sure that the jungle didn't encroach into these places where they had these terror-preter soils, it's theorized that an explosion

of jungle growth occurred because nobody was there to keep the jungle from encroaching on these highly rich, very densely nutritious and very densely, you know, carboniferous soils, and that the jungle exploded so hard, and that there had been that many people for that

many thousands of years that had changed the face of the jungle soil, that the jungle sucked in so much carbon dioxide that it cooled the planet, and that caused the many ice age. It can't be proven, I don't know if it's anywhere close to true, but it is a standing

theory that that, and so when we talk about how, like, we talk about soil being essential to soak in carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, just point to that one, and look at what we've done with agriculture in the United States, Europe, and like Australia, and the continent

of Africa, those soils have no ability at all to suck up carbon dioxide anymore. So I'll leave this discussion there and we can pick that back up with stuff like soil exudates and how much CO2 is taken out of the atmosphere by a perennial plant and shoved into the ground, and why that works, and we'll do that one on a different show.

That's a mic drop moment. Do you just come in, drop the mic moving on? That's really, that's really professional rock star stuff there, I like it. Yeah, we would definitely have to have you back on.

I mean, I've really, really enjoyed this. I've really enjoyed firstly getting to find your podcast and starting to go through those. I think that is a massive need in the space, having this daily content, and it's really well laid out, so I would say to anyone who's listening to this and hasn't already gone

across, go and check it out, and I'm going to put that in the show notes, but it's been just cool to get to know you and learn from you, and she know you as well. Every time we interact, I learn something new and look up to what both of you are doing, because you're so much further along in this rabbit hole than I am, and it gives me hope

it makes me think that we have some chance to create a better world, so I want to say thank you to both of you for coming on the show, and yeah, I've really, really enjoyed it. It's been great.

Same here. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, thanks, man. I appreciate it. I enjoyed this discussion as well. Well, if we've covered most things now, and we'll come back to the other things that we just discussed, but we've covered everything for now, I'll close it out and just say thank

you so much, and I look forward to the next conversation. Absolutely. Awesome. See you later. Cheers, guys.