EP93 Rodolfo & BQA talk bitcoin and freedom

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space, and deliver to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back, everyone. Today's episode is from Block 7 of 21ism. We have just released a new block. We're now at Block 8. But this was well worth putting out there. This was our code feature, Rodolfo, and me and Bitcoin Q&A had the pleasure of sitting down to hear about all the updates and everything coming down the pipeline.

Really enjoyed this conversation. And as always, if you have any questions, feel free to reach out. For anyone who hasn't already checked it out, Block 8 is live, and I sat down with Paul Atoy.

And we talked about Sphinx. We talked about Bitcoin. We talked about all sorts on there. So 21ism.com for the new block. Thank you to both my sponsors. I've got Coin Floor UK for anyone who's looking to stack sat in the UK.

If you are dollar-cost averaging, you're buying weekly or monthly. If you use the code in my show notes, you will get 30% discount on any of your stacking. Just remember, if you do take the time and you can use something like this or huddle huddle, it's gonna save a lot of issues in the future, potentially.

But if you are gonna use a KYC exchange, then make sure that you use good one and Coin Floor UK have been around for a long time. CryptoClopes.com are my other sponsor, and I'm really enjoying what these guys are putting out.

Again, these guys have been a feature before for their design, and I absolutely love what they're doing. They have got such a cool team. They're Bitcoin only, and if you haven't checked it out already, you need to go to the website CryptoClopes.com.

You will not be disappointed. Enjoy the show. Hello, mate. I'm sorry I sent GMT, in fact, the whole thing up as usual. I confused things there. No worries, dude. It's all good. Cool, welcome, and thanks for being in this block.

I have been waiting to get you in. We actually wrote a while ago, and I was trying to get you in for design block because of the block clock, and then I was like, right, I just need to have you in, and it's gonna have to be code this time.

So it's 21ism, block seven for code, and we're just gonna be celebrating everything that you guys are doing. The block clock, the cold card, open dimes, anything that's coming in the future, talks in Bitcoin, have some drinks, and have some fun.

Sounds good, man. I'm in. Awesome. How have you been? It's been a while since we last spoke. You had said to me, once I get my cold cards, you're going to love them, and I said, okay, I trust you.

You were right. I absolutely fucking love them. They're awesome. What's been happening with you since we last spoke? Oh, man. Aside from the corona hysteria here. We've been busy, man. We're building a lot of stuff, and pushing out features for a cold card and all this stuff.

So essentially, we've been keeping busy. You always are. Me and Bitcoin Q&A, before you jumped on, we're just talking about that. She was saying, the features within just the cold card, you keep bringing out more features, and there's so much stuff in there that, I don't know, half of it.

I don't know, half of the stuff that's in there. I've been watching through your videos that are on YouTube and just trying to get to grips with it, but it's so feature rich. Do you ever stop thinking about these new ideas and what you can do with it?

Or is it just a constant? You're just always thinking and making a lot. Oh, absolutely not, man. It's like, we have like no joke about 500 issues open on GitHub or shit. We were like, just for cold card, just for cold card.

That's not even like the open dime, the versions of open dime we wanna do, and the block lock stuff we wanna do, and the next other 10 products we wanna make, it's just like, I don't know, it's like we're in a weird sort of position where there's all this stuff we wanna make, it's gonna have to be made,

but we also don't wanna grow the business too much and have too many people and all that stuff, because then it becomes not fun anymore, right? - Do you find that a lot of the features that have been incorporated into the cold card that have come, have been sort of community driven either requests or as a result from a bug fix, maybe?

- Ah, no. (laughs) So we take user feedback seriously, right? In regards to like, sort of like problems people have that we can solve, that kind of stuff, right? But in regards to like actual features, it really is us driven.

It's like, I want to do this in my life today. Can we do it? No, okay, let's build it. You know what I mean? It's like, I want my cold card to have a countdown feature, because I don't wanna be in that position, and then we make it.

I wanna have a countdown that bricks the device. (laughs) We make it, right? It's just like, and you know, we also have like custom home alarm systems that we also built for ourselves. So like, we're like just like constantly on this like state of mind of like adversarials or what.

What can we do that is not theater that makes our lives safer, right? I'm invasions. - Things are going. (laughs) - Well, I mean, it's built. Like, I mean, we have some cool stuff, but it's just not products, it's not for sale, because like, we don't know how we would make that into a product yet.

But we have interesting stuff that way too. We even looked into how to connect like cold cards to the security system of the house. So there's a lot of stuff going on. It's just like not everything we can make into products, or not everything we can bring into the product, to the market just because of, you know,

it's like you can't make it economically enough that people pay for it, or you can't explain it, or it's too complicated, or it's just too, too like convoluted or too manufactured, that kind of stuff, right?

- Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head a little bit there with, I've heard quite a few builders and founders say exactly the same thing as yourself, and in the fact that they build the products for them.

And that tends to bring out and create sort of the best products in the space. You know, obviously, cold card being one of them. - There's a couple of cold card features that, some of which I will hold my hands up and say, I'm not fully open with, and there's a couple that I think that I love that are quite understood or underused,

that I want, I would hope in that you'd be able to sort of flesh out a little bit for us. The first one being CK Bunker, would you be able to sort of touch on what CK Bunker is and what some of the use cases would be for it?

- Yeah, so many, many, many, many years ago, when we got into Bitcoin, we built the first Bitcoin harder security modules, right? To run coinkite.com, which had the payment terminals, the debit cards, because essentially like big go before big go, right?

So we built this like, you know, $20,000 computers that were ultra secure to do Bitcoin operations hot, right? And we actually even tried to sell a few of those, but like the market wasn't quite there yet and whatever.

So, you know, that service no longer existed, but there's been a lot of people who wanted to have hot keys that were not on a computer. So it's like a substantially more secure setup that could talk to other computers, could talk to an API, or it could be a bunker sort of like cold cosign service where like their employees could go

and cosign transactions, right? Essentially like a more small business enterprise-y kind of solution, right? Based on a cold card. So we built a glue for that and that's what we call CK bunker.

There is actually a couple of interesting larger businesses out there that many Bitcoiners use who do have CK bunkers as their cosign HSMs in their enterprise, which is kind of fun. - Okay, so what are some of the more common new cases that you've seen people implementing this?

- Yeah, so the main one is saying you're running a Bitcoin brokerage right where you sell BTC. You know, you can't let your employees authorize transactions, right? Like not gonna happen.

You could use, you can pay for say big go or you can pay $100,000 for like HSMs or you can have your own, roll your own cosign sort of back-end, right? Your own sort of like custom wallet, whatever it does.

But you don't trust your servers, right? To do all this stuff. So what you do is you have your servers either directly, talk to CK bunker that then gets a cold card to sign or not sign based on a policy.

Like maximum on one Bitcoin per hour, maximum whatever, only Tuesday. So whatever it is, your policy, right? Or you need an employee to go put a pin to verify that that transaction is okay.

We support like a million combinations on how you wanna do your policies. Or you could even have this like completely like air gapped but it gives essentially a computer UI to that cold card where an employee could go and cosign a transaction for the server, right?

So the employee can only cosign, they cannot even create transactions, right? It's like anybody who's an enterprise signing authority thing would probably understand all the, this mumbo jumbo that I sort of explained.

- So it's basically like a cold card that you can lock down for some predetermined spending rules or conditions so that you don't really need to trust anybody other than the parameters that you've kind of preset.

- Yeah, it could even be remote. I mean, like you could roll your own CASA and have this in a different country running. - That's pretty cool, that's pretty cool. Did I see that my node implemented this as well recently?

- Mm-hmm, yeah, and it's free. (laughs) - Nice, nice, okay, cool. All right, the next one was Bip85, which is a bit of a favorite of mine. Would you be able to touch on that one for us? - Yeah, I'm actually surprised that like, we're the only people who implemented Bip85 of pretty much any project out there.

It is such a good Bip. So Bip85 does is it allows you to generate seeds from an original seed. The same way you generate addresses, you just deterministically generate seeds. So, for example, phone wallets, right?

Nobody should put real money on a phone wallet, but it's one more fucking backup you have to make, right? In metal, so it's like one more seed for you to backup. So why not have your hardware wallet that you already trusted real money generate a seed for you that you can use on that phone wallet, but you don't have to worry about backup.

So it's like, and then like scale there, like you can have that for your lightning node wallets, for all your phone wallets, for your web wallets, for whatever you're using, you can generate all those seeds without having to worry about backups.

And even if that cold card dies, you can just recover the original seed in a cold card or there is one script online for it where you can generate those seeds again. - Just to break that down for me is the non-technical one in the room.

Are you saying that you can create as many seeds as you want from that device, which you can then use on any other device that is compatible? Are you basically saying that if I wanted to have a phone wallet, I could create the seed on my cold card that's air-gapped, and then I could transfer that across and use that on a phone wallet,

or have I got that wrong? - Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah. - That's fucking cool. Stop making this stuff, it's too good. - It's just surprising to me that like there is absolutely no innovation in this space.

Like even our cloners, I mean, like, they didn't really like make anything. They just like, you know, like, oh, here's the code. Like, you know, let's just do the same features. Like the people are not creating new features.

There's just so much stuff to invent out there. - And so where do you do this inventing? You've said you've got all of these things open, you keep thinking of these ideas, you're making it for yourself.

Do you have like a certain time of day or a certain thing that you're doing, like going for a walk and you suddenly think of all these ideas or what's happening in your head where you come up with these things?

Is it you're working on something and you think, oh, that'd be fucking cool. Or is there a certain thing in your routine that just is the time when you've got these ideas? - It's all over the place.

And it's like, you know, and it's not just me, right? I mean, like, it's like we have other people in the company and, but most of the time is like me and Peter on the phone just talking.

I thought of this. Is this retarded? Is this awesome? Okay, let's sort of break it down, right? Like when we come up with the ideas and then we just sort of write them down because in the firmware, it's gonna end up being him implementing anyways.

- Is that a fun process? Like I did the two of you talk like for me again, as a non-technical, a lot of it goes over my head, but the idea of like coming up with something and then going, oh, is this possible?

And then creating it so exciting. Like I like doing things creatively in the physical realm, but you know, with this kind of stuff, I can't. But that sounds like it would be a lot of fun to be coming up with an idea and then bouncing ideas off each other.

Do you guys get pissed and do it or what do you do? - That's the process. It's just like call and like normally chitchat about like, you know, things that are going on at the company or, you know, production issues or inventory or whatever the fuck.

And it's like, oh, and by the way, I had this idea or just tax each other, you know, like on Sunday evening, it's like, oh, I was just thinking, if a guy just broke into my house this way, I could do this.

You know, like, and it's like, okay, great. When I hop on a call, yeah. Talk for 15 minutes, right, on each show. And let's start to get it done. That's pretty much the process. - I love it.

- You know, some stuff, you know, we're gonna do research and some stuff we're gonna get like, you know, like other like domain experts to sort of give an opinion. You know, we're working on scrambling seeds now, right?

So that you can have a non-descriptive seed plate, right? Where the seed on it looks like a seed, but it's actually not a seed. It's gonna be, you're gonna need to have another seed plate.

And with some crypto magic, you put the two together. - Ah, fuck. - And then, but now what's really cool is you have a metal backup of encrypted data, right? That is human readable. So you can go and you can put the seed place in places.

Then if somebody finds it, it's like useless. You can even put some decoy funds on it. So you have plausible deniability. It's always about plausible deniability, right? Like, it's like creating a fucking labyrinth of features where like, there is no amount of reading our docs that the bad guys will come up with what setup people have.

- Speaking of reading your documentation pages, this is a true story. A couple of weeks ago, somebody DM me on Twitter and they said to me, "Why did coinkite sell dice? What are they for?

Why would I buy some casino dice from a hardware wallet manufacturer?" To which obviously, I went on to explain the reasons for that and what would your sort of elevated pitch to that being in terms of why you guys sell dice and what they use for in relation to call cards?

- Well, so we, you know, don't trust verify, right? So the whole point was I do not wanna have to trust a hardware wallet to do any entropy work, right? But I don't mind trusting the hardware wallet to do some entropy work.

And it's very important to keep those two things in mind. And this is where a lot of people get lost. So you discourage the hardware wallet manufactured to have any sort of a retirement attack or anything like that, right?

If they offer an alternative to them generating the entropy because now you're just gonna make sure that all the people that care about their money or whatever are gonna probably do the entropy generation themselves with the dice instead of trusting.

So you're actually amortizing the risk through the multiple varying options that you have there on the device, right? It's really cool. So it doesn't mean that everybody's gonna use the dice to generate their keys, but they have the option to.

And that sort of leeches a bit of trust into the other setup. But anyway, aside from that comment, we want people to not trust us and generate their own entropy doing the dice work, right?

But us being properly lazy people, the idea of throwing dice 100 times was very annoying to me. So what we did is we found a manufacturer that would make the smallest dice they could possibly make.

That was too usable. So we make a little bag of dice that comes with 100 dice. So you only throw it at once and then you just sort of like go through them. - Okay, so the idea with the big bag is that you literally just flip the top off and just empty the bag and they land where they land in that.

- That's it. - Cool. - Okay, it's key. (both laugh) - No, wait, it's hard to convey how little they are. They're five millimeter dice. - Oh, shit, right. - Yeah. - So dude, they are the size like when, if you compact them in the bag, all the dice fit in the volume of a wine cork.

- Fuck. - What? - Say that again. (both laugh) - So the whole volume, okay, of the dice, like the 100 dice combined together are the size of a wine cork. - Wow, okay. - They're the smallest cutest dice you'll ever see in your life.

Does it come with a magnifying glass? (both laugh) - We made sure they were high contrast enough. - Okay. - No, no, they're very legible. Like this is very usable. - Actually, the interesting point about that is as well is that once you sort of tip all these 100 dice out is that there's almost an unlimited amount of ways

that each individual, you know, the order that they would enter those into the coal card as well. - Yeah, yeah, I mean, like, you're not gonna find a pattern there, right? And even, you know, all dice will have some bias, right?

But even if they have bias, they're healing each other and it's a hundred of them. So there will be variance on the bias itself too, right? So like, chances are out of 100 dice (laughs) how many dice have the same exact bias, right?

- Well, that's cool. I never, I looked at the photos of them. I never would have even imagined that they'd be anywhere closer to being that small. They're so tiny, I have a bag in my hands right now.

Can I play with it? Yeah, they're awesome. - I wish I'd known about this before I had done my previous setups 'cause I've set up three coal cards now and I've done it with a single die with like 200 throws every single time individually.

- 200 throws? - Yeah, and it was a long, it was a long day. It was a really long, really long day. - Yeah, but yeah, that is a better way. It sounds like it gives you probably better entropy, saves you a load of time.

- Yeah, but you know, honestly, even if bias dies, I wouldn't worry. It's just like the math on there just gets kind of stupid very fast. - It was a feature that I really liked. It was one of the things when like I was setting it up and I remember doing it and thinking, I really feel so much more secure,

knowing that Rodolfo doesn't know what I'm rolling. I was thinking like, so it could be sneaky and I wouldn't know 'cause I don't understand the code. So you could sneak something in there but you don't know the dice rolls.

And once I'd set that up, I'd sent my funds to cold. I was like, I feel comfortable, like I sleep better at night now because of that feature. - But you know, like this is the part they're like, you know, if you wanna go for your full paranoid, right?

Like now you have to trust that the dice are gonna be taken in. - Yes. - Right? So what's really cool now is like since version 4.0, now we have reproducible builds, right? So you don't have to trust, like you don't have to know how to read code.

You don't have to trust us. You just have to trust that there's enough people looking at the code, right? Because you can build from source and prove that the same build that you have is the build that you downloaded.

- Yeah, Bitcoin Q&A actually on our last show was talking to me about this. I think it was in one of your recent updates. - Yeah, yeah. And another cool thing is like I personally, I mean, it is my device.

I believe our mixing in dice inputs with our C-Gen code is safer and better than just throwing dice. Because we are storing all this stuff together, provably, right? So like, it's like, it really is next level entropy.

- I just wanna go back to something that you touched on earlier around. You mentioned, well, one about being lazy and another one about not having to trust you guys. I don't know whether it's a combination of the both or something completely different, but what was the reason that you guys have never ventured into creating

like a companion desktop or mobile app to compliment the code code? - Well, a few things. So after we closed down Q&A, the service, we told ourselves that we would never run a service ever again in our lives.

We send you a device, we provide you warranty and support, but we would not be running anything that connects to it. We don't like the privacy compromises that come. So for example, if you're running the Trezor software, you're like doxing all your UTXOs to the same people

that ship you the harder wallet. That's like stupid. And they encourage that, right? Because they make money selling you shit coins on the same UI. So like, it really is not great, right?

It's like, it creates, let me just backtrack a little bit. Like the purpose of the way code card is built aside from pleasing us as the makers is to do Bitcoin the right way, right? Is to do Bitcoin the Bitcoin way.

The Bitcoin way, there's no trust and you should force people to have some basic understanding of what they're doing so that they're not trusting, right? And I think like code card kind of strikes that balance well, right?

It can feel a little complicated to some people, but then like, you know, given two hours, they're all pros, right? But the thing is, there is no easy app. There is no coin kite branded crap to sell you shit coins.

There's none of that stuff because we don't want to have any connection with you aside from the hardware we sent you, right? You now, you create a much better trust minimization by using another vendor for the desktop wallet, for that app wallet, right?

We don't have your full stack. Yeah, it's like you said, it doesn't take that long. You do have to, there's definitely a bit of a learning curve. Like you do have to have some responsibility.

And I get that. I get why you make people do it. And I'm very grateful that I've gone through that process and I've learned from using a code card of learn things that I didn't understand before.

And I was a little bit nervous to start with, but now I do feel more comfortable because you know more steps in between, which actually makes you sleep sounder at night. And it's nice to have features, even if you don't use all of them.

I sometimes will just click onto your videos and go on. I'm going to learn how to do this today or I'm going to have a play with this today or I'm not sure about this and having just those.

And then all obviously the other guys like Q&A rights and everyone else, there's so much info out there that if anyone wants to use one of these and they really are, they're the best thing out there.

Like I fucking love them, I just, I can't imagine ever using anything else again now. - It's hard, isn't it? - Yeah, I don't know that stuff. They're not trying to do this stuff, right? Like they're still stuck in this idea where it's like all that they're doing is just trying to sign the transaction, right?

In like in some sort of set of security compromises, right? We all have different ones. But there is no attempt at solving the actual fucking problem, which is how do we prevent people from getting hit in the head?

Like to give a wither BTC, right? Like it's like this is the problem that we're trying to solve, right? It's like the secure people. It's not to like have a competing harder wallet. So anyways, so that's sort of like where we're at.

- So when CoinKai 3D printed gums? - Wow, it's complicated, right? We live in Canada, we have different, we don't have American, unfortunately, we don't have American second amendment here or anything like that.

So it really is for bears. - Same here, same as the UK, we're all cocked as well. - No, but we don't need, right? So the way we're trying to solve this problem is by just removing the violence out of the equation because violence would be pointless, right?

So I think we've already done some good dent on that, right? If your device is bricked, well, it's bricked. - Yeah. - I mean, like, listen, you're gonna, you can take my fingers off, but there's nothing you can do.

And then we have now some more like insidious ways of breaking the device where it buys you even more time, right? So we have the lockdown thing that the countdown to brick. So it counts down as standard countdown, saying you cannot sign, right?

For the next X amount of hours that you set it. But in the background, it deletes your seed or it breaks the device. I can't remember, yeah, it breaks the device in the background. So then what happens is the bad guy sees the device saying that, it's very plausible, right?

The device is saying that because it's saying that. And then if the bad guy takes the device away with them, right, they can't do shit with it because once the time expires, it's just brick.

- So it just buys you that little bit of time, doesn't it? - It does, right? And like, you know, bad guys don't have all the time in the world, right? Like time is against them. So we're trying to increase control in an attack by giving you time.

And then we also have all kinds of multi-sig features, right? Like, you know, if you're not using the other wallets, the other harder wallets in the multi-sig, we do quite advanced things and they can all be done fully or gapped, right?

And we also do lots of checks and all kinds of shit. But we're also like working on a next multi-sig feature where you gotta, I don't wanna talk too much until it's sort of like fully sort of like done and properly documented, but we're coming up with a better multi-sig solution.

This is code card only, right? You can't use multiple vendors because some of them don't even make their micro-steed card work, but aside from that, we wanted to make it super easy for you to multi-sig with yourself, right?

Plausibly deny that you have full forum and allow you to also have things of sight in a way that they are not exposed. So we're working on making both the multi-sig, be able to be multi-sig without fear of those keys being captured

and also the backups of those keys also being clear-text but not usable. Okay, that's interesting. And that's it, active development at the moment. Oh yeah, we were working on 4.0.3. I hope to have something like soon.

That's cool, that's cool. Something else that was in version four, I believe, which again is our home handle is not one that I fully understood and I thought, well, I'll take the opportunity to ask you to better understand it myself is that you guys implemented the same crypto library as Bitcoin Core now, let's say.

So what's the importance of that to the normal call card user? So it's kind of huge and not. It's exactly the same for people. Like as a user, it feels like exactly the same. But now you have the peace of mind there.

We are using the same exact library as Bitcoin Core for all the crypto, right? So this is like one of the most reviewed crypto libraries that exist. - Okay, so it's like a peace of mind thing more than anything?

- Yeah, we gain a little bit more speed and also there's a bunch of like new sort of security features and some that we might add that we need to also implement. But it's essentially like more security, more peace of mind, a bit faster and there is no shit going on it.

There's no even shit coin relation at all on it. It's just Bitcoin, that's it. Another cool thing too is there is the experimental version of this library that has confidential transactions, that has like taproot that has snore, like all that stuff, right?

So it would be very easy for us to eventually add those features once they have PSBT support. - Interesting. So it kind of just brings you guys or what you're building up on more in line with core functionality.

- Yeah, this is the way we like to build cold card in general or all coin kite products. It's like we don't deviate, we don't have our own dips with a different ladder to denominate coin kite or anything like that.

We just, there's dips and then, because there is no point, right? Like you need to be compatible with base layer, right? So we're not gonna invent shit that's not gonna be to the spec of Bitcoin core because I want to peacefully be able to go away tomorrow and people still be able to function, right?

With the devices we made. So it's all sort of like Bitcoin core compatible and we are always like reading and rereading all the bits available trying to find more stuff to do. It's kind of like, you know, PSBT was sort of like forgotten, right?

And it's like, best spec ever. Great. Let's build a device around it or Bip85 or whatever it is. We sort of like really like to have that focus on stuff that's already being reviewed. - It seems like some of your products are gaining some traction.

You had some prime time appearance the other day with Jack and Larry, you know, I was just wondering how that has affected sales, like what's happened to them, more people going, you know, what is this calculator?

Like, how do I get my hands on it? I've seen this clock thing that shows Moscow time, like now how do I get these other products? Or is the world still asleep? - Oh no, I mean, like, so the problem is we don't want to grow too much, right?

Again, like this is like, I want to run a business I want to work in, right? I don't want to be a slave to the business and we can, like production, we can scale, right? I know how to do production.

And we just keep on growing production as sales increase. But now it regards like product development and features that's like more based on our preferences. So, you know, Jack is a real Bitcoiner.

He's been in Bitcoin for a long time. And he's played with our products for a few years now. And, you know, he was really into the... - That was not expecting for him to have that in front of a hearing.

- That was an incredible shill. An absolute incredible shill. - That was hilarious. - The best product placement I have seen in, I think, forever. - I think the better of it is the fact that like, I think what truly made it like explode was that security guy saying that there was the most cool time.

- That really... - He was convinced. - Yeah, exactly. 'Cause like, you know, like, you know, we would have gotten some exposure, right? Oh, look, there's a weird clock there, right? But the whole Russia conspiracy around it.

I mean, that was just like, nwah. I mean, like, that was just beautiful, right? Like, like, I mean, I don't think my jaws were hurting that day of how much it was laughing of that guy, like, fully pushing that, right?

Like, I just couldn't, like... And then we just like embraced it, right? My eyes were all just like, build it into it. So now the, you know, the block clock shows most cool time. - Why not, right?

- So no, you know, I'm thankful that he had the clock there. It's a very obscure product, right? So it's fun that like, people saw it. - Sales are already pretty crazy for it. And the backlog was already huge.

The sales on the two days post that were a bit crazy too. And now they're sort of like more in line with like the increased growth trend that we have in general for all the products. So like, it's a little bit more manageable, which is nice.

You know, just buy more parts and making more as fast as we can, same for everything we make. It's like, it's nice. I mean, it's like, there is other things we make and you know, they all sort of achieve different things.

And I just, just happy that like, people have fun of our products. They're like, they have some sort of like a character. I mean, like, they have some personality. - Yeah, I also think, like I said at the beginning of the show, it was a real debate.

I was like, I don't know where to put Rodolfo. I don't know like, in many ways I thought design because I was like, there's a very clear design throughout all of your products. And it feels very cypherpunk, very raw, but it's also slick.

Like it has has something about it when I have any of the products here and I haven't got the block clock mini yet. I just, I haven't partnered with my Sats yet. - You will. - It's inevitable.

- Oh, well, I'm just kidding. - You and, no, you're absolutely right. You and Rick from Crypto Clokes managed to get me to part with my Sats and no one else does ever. I've never done it, but I will get one of those 'cause they're so fucking cool.

And they're like, there's some sort of message that you're putting across with all of your design and it's very clear and it goes through all of the coin kite products. Yeah, so in many ways it would have been a feature for the design.

- We draw most of the design inspiration from the actual, everything is utilitarian, right? In our products, you know, cold card is the size of a credit card and it's a card. And the case is clear because you wanna be able to see inside and it's made out of polycarbonate which is like three times more expensive

than the other plastic that competitors use but it's strong, it doesn't break, right? It's meant to be concealable. You know, like on block lock mini, right? It's like you wanna be able to see the stuff that's in there.

It's like, you know, it's Bitcoin is about transparency, right? Open dime is the design that it is because it's like that's the way we could make it the cheapest and but maintain the functionality, right?

So it's like, it's all extremely utilitarian. That's like normally when it comes down to the wire and it's like if we're gonna make a decision either way with the design, it's always like pretty much siding with like the utilitarian choice of how the thing is gonna be.

We just try to give it a little bit of a personality and add as much comedy as we can. - And the cold power and yeah, I love it. Like I always feel like I'm some sort of like crazy cool when I'm using them.

I'm like, ah, yeah, this is so good. And I love all the open components. I'll tell you what you should do is when Elon goes full Bitcoin or and stops fucking around with doge, he should speak to him about this cypher, cypher truck or whatever he calls it, his pickup.

And just say, come on, let us sort your interior. Let us sort some of these components. - No, I like that car. So like, I'm not a, yeah, I mean, like, this is the first Tesla I'd buy. I like the idea and apparently it's gigantic.

I would like to drive that truck around, especially if it was an actual diesel engine on it. But I like the idea of a car that utilitarian that is also bulletproof. That sounds pretty fucking awesome.

I mean, finally, it's like building a car for dudes. It's like, yeah. - This is what I'm thinking is the perfect fit is you need to say to him, look, we'll sort out the interior. So there's a special place for your cold car.

Do you have like all your bits all set up there and you do some of this design? It needs to be some sort of team up there so that it doesn't just look good from the outside and it doesn't just have bulletproof windows, but when you get in, you have your proper cypherpunk set up and you can send transactions anywhere in the world

and you can have the star links set up on it. That would be the vehicle that I would pop up to. - My suggestion to him is just use, you know, clear polycarbonate throughout all the panels.

You know, I want to see inside my truck. I mean, the Cybertruck's electric, obviously, so I'm feeling some form of cold power slash, Tesla slash Cybertruck collab. I think that's going to work quite well.

- I don't know, man. Those trucks talked to the mothership, you know, like it's like all the Teslas have that. I, that's like one thing that the boys kept me away from those cars is that like the idea of my car needing like softer upgrades.

Like, that I don't get to check the PGP key. - There'll be some black market out there that I'll be able to, it'd be like a garage that you can take it to and it'll rip all the brains out.

- That's right. (laughing) - I look forward to that. Yeah, it is a car that definitely like, that's the one thing that takes me away from petrol and then on to those, it's like, those things would be sick.

If what I think's coming comes, it would be nice to have something that's bulletproof. (laughing) - Yeah, I mean like, you know, especially, I don't want to docks where you guys are at, but I think you guys have-- - No, no, no, docks away.

- No, like in the island, you guys live in. You know, that's a fucking island, right? There's no place to go. (laughing) - I think anyone would know from, from our accents where we are. - I think we need a tribe of boats, not a cybertruck.

- That's right, that's right. - What's your thoughts on all that's going on then, you're a dolphin because, you know, security is your business, you're building all this incredible stuff you were just saying.

Obviously you're doing like home invasion stuff and it is some of what's going on around, like the macro landscape and all this crazy bullshit that we see going on affecting the way that you're designing things or the way you're thinking about things.

What's your general outlook on it all? - I don't know, man. It's like I grew up in Brazil, right? Like we're, especially when I was a kid, like kidnappings were like bread and butter. (laughing) So I don't know, it's like, to me all this stuff is like a lot more toned down nowadays, right, than like what I grew up with.

So it's, I mean things, it's like having like Bitcoin, Bitcoin is optimistic, right? It's a huge optimistic bet on humanity. And it's also optimism for people who want to be more self-sovereign, more self-deterministic.

It's like, it's for people that want responsibility, right? Which is not the case for most people. I mean, that's something that we have to come to grips with. Like, I mean, remember like politicians are just like a representation of what most people want, right?

Most people want money printing. Most people want free services and not like figure out that you have to pay for it. So politicians print. And I think that I think the West, like safe places in the West will take a bit of a hit, but it will still be way safer than any other place.

I find it hard to believe that Canada will be much more dangerous than the worst part of Toronto kind of thing, right? It's like, you know, there's a kilovirus on that though. - Right, right, yeah. - You need to be scared.

- It bit a dog the other day, the virus. It's like, no, it's quite amazing. Only 300 people died of Corona in Ontario out of, was 14 million people since January last year. Oh, three, come on, right?

That's below 60, sorry, sorry, below 60. And then, you know, maybe a couple, like maybe a thousand or so between 60 and 70 something. And then, you know, and then 80 plus, I mean, that's where you have like a thousand or 2,000 people who died.

But like, you know, these are retirement homes where like, you know, these people are kind of ready halfway there, you know, it sucks, right? But like, it's not like, hey, let's just imprison everybody else because, anyways, I get it.

On the beginning of this whole thing, we don't know, is this Ebola like or not, right? People get scared, you sort it out, but then you move on. But anyways, it's pretty pointless. - It is what it is.

- Yeah, no, the stuff is gonna run its course. There is no, you can't argue where half the population is scared to death. So like, you know, just fine, you know what? - Print it away, Bitcoin and chill.

(laughing) - Yeah, if it wasn't for Bitcoin, we'd all be very, very worried with what's going on with those printers. But actually, at the end of the day, it doesn't really-- - I mean, acid super inflation is happening right now.

It's like, you know, second homes are going for 100% asking here. Like, these are recreational second homes. - In the middle, like people haven't had a job for a year and a half, and they're buying second homes, right?

It's like, just record sales of cars. Okay, but this is the best part. Record sales of boats in 2020. - Wow. - So it's like, you know, I don't know, man, it's fine. You know, if that's what it is, it is what it is.

We're just gonna watch here from the sidelines, right? Like, what the fuck are you gonna do? (laughing) - Keep your head down, keep building and just watch number go up. I guess that's the way.

- Yeah, that's, yeah, that's what we're doing. (laughing) - It's gonna eventually come to a head. And yeah, like I say, it's good to have that hope and optimism and to be in this space because what I found is quite funny is we're all on Bitcoin Twitter just laughing and joking and fucking around, making some money

and watching the world change before our eyes. And everyone else is just sat there shitting themselves and you look and you think, where would I rather be? Like, what would I rather be doing than be in this Bitcoin space and be with people who are like optimistic, saying, yeah, we can beat this, yeah, we can change the world.

We can fix the money, we can fix all these other things. We're gonna make some cool shit and like just make our own economy and everything else can just do one. What a nice space to be in and have that sort of energy around you.

- Yeah, it's like, you know, it's just so fucking awesome, man. To wake up and sort of like go shitpost if a bunch of people were optimists and have something to look forward in their lives and like people who want work, people who want responsibility, people who want to fucking create stuff, right?

Who care about the future? It's like, it's refreshing and it's like, it's completely like intoxicating, right? Like it's, that's like, and that's the reality, right? Like for Bitcoiners, like while, like you said, everybody else is like home-shitting their pants, right?

Like... - We're shitposting. - Yeah, but it's kind of like dealing with wounded dogs, right? If you get too close, they bite you. So it's like, okay, fine, you know, it's like, have fun staying forward then.

(laughing) - One thing I wanted to ask you Rolfo was, unfortunately you seem to have been bitten by the same plague as myself in terms of domain hoarding. So I wanted to ask how many domains have you hoarded so far because I think you seem to be worse than both myself and Mr. O'Dell put together.

- Oh, you have no idea. And this is not a new disease. As a company, we have special pricing with a few different domain registrars and I'll just leave it at that. - Wow. - It's pretty bad.

To be fair though, we have managed to sell a few that paid for pretty much everything else a few times. So it's not too bad that way. But if I had bought Bitcoin instead of domains, oh boy, it would have been a very different story.

(laughing) - You two definitely have a problem. You really have a problem. Can we talk in sort of rough numbers? - Oh, no, absolutely not as embarrassing. (laughing) What about you, Q&A? - Less than 20, I'm an amateur.

There's a couple of hodles in there that hopefully might earn me some Bitcoin in the future. - Yeah, I mean, at least I like to put them to work as memes. (laughing) - It's like a good domain throw.

- I think I've lost you. - I'm still here. - Hello? - We're all here. - Oh, we're there, no, we're there, we're there. Yeah, well, we're Dolfo. It's been a pleasure speaking to you again.

And like I said at the beginning, we absolutely love your products. I think everyone in 21ism has at least a cold card, some open dimes and some other bits and pieces. And we just wanna say thank you for creating this stuff.

It's really, really cool. We're very proud to be featuring you. It is just incredible to have someone like you waking up every day and deciding I wanna just keep pushing the space forward and helping all of us secure our sets.

- Nah man, thank you guys for like educating people and for like being awesome customers. I mean, that's the thing that gets not told a lot is that like having Bitcoiners is your customer base.

Like we don't have shit coiners. So like having just Bitcoiners at customer base, it's like, it's pretty awesome. It's like, you know, people who care about the things they buy and you have a lot of pride in that.

- It's definitely the right move and it just means that you get to spend the time with people you wanna be. It's so much nicer than fucking around and arguing with shit coiners. Thank you and it was a pleasure to speak to you.

And thank you Q&A for being here for asking some of the more technical questions as well. That's been awesome. And yeah, like I said last time, I really hope that all of this corona bullshit can do one and eventually we can go for a drink or shoot some guns or whatever in the States.

- Yeah, man, looking forward to it. - Yeah, thanks for the offer. I really enjoyed this chat. - All right, mate, we'll speak soon. Thanks a lot. - Hey dude, thank you. Take care.