EP99 Hard money with Richard James. Bitcoin

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space, and deliver to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back, everyone. Today's guest is Richard James. I've been looking forward to this one for some time. We have featured him previously on "21ism," so if you haven't checked that out, go and have a look.

It was just really cool to sit down and talk to him about both his films, hard money, and anatomy of the state. What led him to make them. And his Bitcoin journey really, really enjoyed this one.

And if you haven't checked out the films, you absolutely have to. In my opinion, these are some of the best films that I have seen in the space. I think that they will stand the test of time.

I think if you're trying to onboard no coiners and you want a bit of a hack, you want someone to understand very quickly why we're here, why we do what we do, this is probably one of the best ways to do it.

Before we dive in, I want to say thank you to Coin Floor UK for sponsoring the show. Any UK Bitcoiners who are looking to stack Sats, you're looking for somewhere that you can dollar cost average in, this is the place to go.

They are the only exchange that I suggest within the UK. Obviously, as you all know, I always recommend if you can buy no KYC, you should do it. But I know not everyone's going to listen.

If you're not going to listen, they are the only place to go. You can use the link in the show notes and get 30% off your fees. Next up is crypto cloaks. Crypto cloaks have been sponsoring me for a few months now.

And I absolutely love their products. Firstly, the whole team are proper hardcore Bitcoiners. They really get it. I've had them on before and again, we featured them on 21ism. So check that out, got some really cool footage of inside their workshop and how they're building things.

And also just a really fucking cool team, proper Bitcoiners. And yeah, very, very happy to have them sponsoring the show. That's crypto cloaks.com onto the show. Enjoy. - Hey, Richard, how you doing?

- Hey Max. - I'm doing well. - Hey, yeah, very well. Sorry, I was a couple of minutes late. I was rushing around. I've moved my office and it's a bit makeshift. So just setting up takes a little bit longer.

- No, no, no problem whatsoever. I just thought I'd set a text just to make sure. All right, almost more to make sure I had the right time and day, you know, since you often get the time wrong.

So it's a little tricky, isn't it? 'Cause we're global Bitcoiners. - Yeah, that's right. But here we are. - Yeah, well, thanks for joining me. And it's good to have a proper conversation with you.

I've been admiring your work for quite some time now. Obviously we had you featured for 21ism. And now you've also done an interview for us. And I've seen some of the stuff that you've been putting out.

And then we were on, I was on Twitter the other day. I came across something that you'd shared with Christine Lagarde on a Defund the Fiat criminals. And it just, it jogged my memory. I was like, I have had on my list to speak to you for such a long time, literally since we first featured you.

And then I was like, oh, I'll give it a little bit of time 'cause you know, it's just been on 21ism. We give it a bit of time. And then that triggered, triggered something. I was like, fuck, I need to reach out to you now.

(laughing) It's awesome. - That's great. Well, thanks for having me. It may be a lot. - It may be so great to be here. That was, yeah, no, I sort of, every now and then I, yeah, something, it interests me or irks me enough to be worth making a Twitter video about it.

And that was one of them. I think it was, there was a thing with Lagarde, especially was kind of going around on Bitcoin Twitter. And I'd said a few memes about it. And then I think it was Stefan Lavera posted something and he was the one who had that tagline that was, you know, don't fund the fiat criminals.

I think he was referring to buying bonds. Like if you, you know, it's not ethical to hold government bonds in your investment portfolio 'cause you're just funding, you know, continuing the funding to this whole charade.

- Yeah, it gets to a point where you go deep enough down the rabbit hole and you see enough that it becomes difficult to ethically consider these sort of investments or placing your money there.

And it, you know, almost gets to a point where actually using the currency, you're thinking, well, I'm helping here. I'm part of the problem. And it's such a massive problem. And it's a problem that's so beautifully outlined in your film, "Hard Money."

You know, not just hyping you up, but it really is one of the best bits of film I have seen in this space and it explains things in such a fantastic way. It's an interesting watch as well.

It's not just a preachy sort of, you know, someone standing in front of a whiteboard trying to explain economics and what's going wrong. Like it's engaging. And I think it's so important to have this sort of stuff in the space because it's such a long journey otherwise.

Like these are little hacks like to get someone where it used to maybe take five years to have an understanding with this sort of content and with people helping, it can be much quicker. And so I wondered, was it something that inspired you to do this because you wanted to help others along?

Or were you like many Bitcoiners where you were just like, fuck, I just wanna do something. I wanna talk about it. I have to. You have that itch and this was the way to scratch it. - Yeah, sort of the ladder, I suppose.

I mean, I'm glad that it has been something that seems to have helped people on their journey towards learning, certainly that's been the feedback I've been getting, which is really good.

But yeah, I suppose it wasn't necessarily that my main motivation, you're right that there's so much good learning material out there now to make that process much quicker. And I'm thankful that when I started my process, which was probably in 2019 or so, there was a lot of good material out there,

but most of it in written form. And I sort of spent six months or so absorbing everything that I could, and I'd spent a lot longer than that on the economic side of things. That's something that's interested me my whole life.

And before I learned about Bitcoin, I was already on this path of Austrian economics. And I'd say I was a gold bargain. I was planning for the financial apocalypse. So it was a, I was sort of, I guess, prime to be receptive to the values of Bitcoin, but I suppose a lot of people from that gold community

don't necessarily make the leap over. But I just, yeah, I suppose I wanted to, wasn't so much that I wanted to contribute to the Bitcoin space. It was more just that I'd absorbed so much information that I had this need to get it out somehow, or almost to organize my own thoughts as much as anything.

And I started writing, that was sort of my first thing. And I stopped and started and never really produced anything that I thought was original or of real value. And then I did have a background in film production, although I hadn't done that for many years.

And yeah, it just came to me that there wasn't much out there in that format. And so sort of just sat down one day and pulled a few things together from YouTube and from a few podcasts and went from there.

And it seemed to work. - It definitely did. And when you had completed it, when you had finished the project and put it out there, what was that feeling like? Was it, you know, you're saying it's a way to organize your thoughts and do something creative that you hadn't had a chance to do for a while?

How did that feel afterwards? - It was a satisfying process for me to get a finished product, you know, of itself, just from me, you know, sitting on my own computer. That was, you know, the first goal for me.

And I felt like I had achieved that. What I'd set out to for myself and, you know, because it was a learning process for me to organize those sorts. Just if anything, just the hundreds of hours of podcasts that I'd absorbed and then filtered and cut down and put peace back together into a cohesive narrative.

But then I suppose the next thing was how to, you know, I wasn't quite sure what to do with it or how to get it out there. I certainly didn't have an audience. You know, I was on Twitter, but I was just a lurker.

I literally had zero followers. I'd never posted. And so I'd just reached out to a few of the people who had featured, who I'd featured in the project. You know, without their, well, I hadn't released a thing yet, but I certainly hadn't got anyone's permission.

But I reached out and told a few podcasters and a few people that I'd used some of their material or I'd featured something they'd said. And would they just have a look at the film and maybe if they thought it was worthy, could they mention it on Twitter or something like that?

So, and quite a few, everyone was great. Got people got back to me and I think the first guys who sort of shared it were Colin and Ben from WTF 1971, they were really supportive of me early on and sort of hit with the first ones who helped it reach a wider audience and they put it up on their website and it sort of went from there.

And I, but I was genuinely surprised that it got the reception that it did. I sort of wasn't, you know, I was hoping that maybe some Bitcoiners would watch it and like it, but yeah, I didn't expect it to reach as far as it did.

So it was a pleasant surprise. - I think it just comes down to the amount of passion that's in, it's difficult even calling it an industry, but it's just like the passion within Bitcoiners and in this community, this group of people who have such strong views and are so excited about this.

And when they see something that explains it in such a great way and that just nails down some of these points so well, it hypes them up. Like I can't imagine any Bitcoiner watching that and not wanting to be part of it or not wanting to share it.

So I guess that's the thing is that maybe in some other industry, people would have an issue with it or wouldn't bother sharing it, but it's different here. - Yeah, it's a pleasure having such a receptive and energetic audience.

It's an interesting phenomenon that I hadn't really come across before. You know, in my previous work in film, which was more in sort of adventure sports and kind of travel films and documentaries and stuff, where I suppose it's harder work to get people behind your project.

You know, whereas with, you know, there's a thing in, I guess, in film where if you fit a project to a very specific genre, like whether it's a horror film of a certain type or something like that.

Or I suppose, you know, in my case, like a sports film, in, you know, whether it's skateboard culture or surf culture or something, if you really target it very specifically, you'll have this hardcore, or perhaps more, but hardcore group of people who are really gonna get behind it.

But I'd never, you know, never noticed it works so well as with the Bitcoin community. Yeah, it's incredible. - And so when you were making these sports films and, you know, surfing and skateboarding, et cetera, like, was that because that was a passion of yours at the time?

Or was it just literally, it was work that you were doing through some form of employment or that you'd been asked to work on it? - No, that was because that was my passion at the time, especially surfing and skiing.

You know, I was just, it was sort of what I was doing at the time, you know, I was traveling with my brother. We spent about a year traveling through Africa, filming and surfing. And so that project was fantastic because it was just, you know, it was sort of wasn't really a, I guess, a commercial project

in that, you know, it wasn't particularly profitable, although it did sort of fun some of our travel and, you know, it did get distribution around the world. So there were things that I were interested in doing and that was always the idea with the path I took in filmmaking was that I only really wanted to do it

if I was doing it on my own terms and doing something that I really wanted to do. I never really wanted to go down the path of doing it as a job. And I know colleagues or friends have taken that path and some of them have made a success out of it, but to be honest, I find it a stressful line of work,

you know, camera gear and on sets and things like that. And so, you know, if you're doing it just 'cause someone's telling you what to do to earn a paycheck at the end of the day, it wasn't really my thing.

And so, you know, when, you know, responsibilities in life kind of caught up with me, I sort of veered away from it. You know, I didn't go down that path professionally and sort of didn't do much for 10 years or so, but then yeah, it was Bitcoin that brought me back to it.

And then in this specific way of, you know, literally just sitting at a desk and pulling together material, not giving a shit about copyright, not giving a shit about trying to monetize this thing, just kind of purely doing it for the sake of, of, you know, interest in Bitcoin.

And so that's been a nice way to work, you know, just on my own time in my own space. And once for something, I'm just incredibly interested in. - That's a creative process that's enjoyable.

I completely understand what you mean by, you know, once you, if you have a vision and then you suddenly have all these barriers and you've got to go through all these loops and jump, jump and do what you're told.

And you can't really be free. And then it just takes all the fun and the excitement out of that process. Like once you get told or you can't do this, well, this has to be done a certain way or a client wants this.

And it's like, ah, fuck off. Let me just like create something. And, you know, I can see why a lot of people get put off or they think they want to go into that sort of industry. And then the reality if they're working in, you know, for sort of corporate media or doing that kind of stuff

is probably very, very different to the vision they had. And so what did you decide to do after that? Because obviously you said you had some responsibilities and you went and did something else that you were already interested in Austrian economics.

You were already a gold bug. So was it a finance background you had or what did you go into? - I was working to try and start up my own business, actually, I had studied economics and not really finance, but yeah, sort of business and commerce, I suppose, at university.

- Well, and wasn't particularly inspired by that, really. But, and it didn't even, practically it didn't even help, you know, going down the path of trying to start a business. And, you know, just the most basic stuff like accounting, that's probably the most useful thing, but I didn't really, you know, do that to a high level

at university. But, so yeah, that was, that interest in economics was more of like just a kind of hobby on the side. But yeah, in the travel industry, I sort of spent the last 10 years trying to build up a tour of expedition business and spending a lot of time traveling myself, you know, guiding groups of people and things like that.

But that was sort of, you know, didn't survive very well after what happened last year. Like we obviously sort of pretty much had to shut down. And we sort of were successfully able to morph the business in a, in a different direction that hopefully will let it survive the pandemic.

But I sort of certainly for me, it was, yeah, last year was a lot of downtime, a lot of reflection on what I really wanted to do. And, you know, that was a tough year for the business. I think for me personally, it was quite good in that, you know, I reflected in everything.

And I just had a lot more free time, more certainly a lot more time at home, you know, if I had have been flat out of work, I probably never would have gone round to making these projects.

So it's a blessing in disguise, I suppose. But yeah, and also just, you know, got a family and young kids and that sort of, it's been keeping me pretty busy over the last few years as well.

- Yeah, you do need that time to reflect. And like you said, that is a positive thing that's come out of all this mess, is that I think more and more people have taken a step back and, you know, not everyone's gone, oh, I'm gonna make a brilliant film about Bitcoin.

But, you know, a lot of people have thought, what the fuck am I doing in life? Like, what, what am I doing getting up at 5.30 in the morning and racing off to work and commuting in and then sitting in a little cubicle and doing something that I hate and then not finishing till eight o'clock in the evening

and then driving back and then my wife and kids are asleep. And I do that on repeat, what am I doing? Like, what is life all about? And I have noticed a few people have taken that step back and reassessed how they spend their time.

And so, silver linings, I suppose. - Yeah, you've got to look at it that way. But yeah, and I agree and I think of the years that I couldn't sleep like I'd be up at night worrying about, you know, profit and loss statements and, you know, not that that stuff's not important.

Like I was really trying hard to make something of myself and make a business work. But, and I'd often, you know, during those years would sometimes, you know, have these nightmares of like, "Oh man, imagine if something happened."

You know, I always, we did most of our work around the Pacific Islands and specifically Papua New Guinea. And I thought, "Oh, you know, imagine if something happened "that we couldn't travel there."

And I always thought it would be a violent incident or something, an accident or something that would disrupt tourism in that one specific spot. I never could have imagined this, what's happened globally.

And so I suppose this, what happened last year was like, something worse for my business than the worst nightmare as I ever could have even imagined before. And it's like, "Oh, you know, we just worked around it, "figured out something else."

You know, and so I suppose I've sort of having been through that tunnel and come out the other side, yeah, you definitely reflect on your values and what's important. And so, and yeah, I suppose you have to look at the silver lining in that respect.

And you know, it's worked out well for me certainly in some ways, not necessarily financially, but I guess it pushed me further and further to Bitcoin. So I suppose from a financial point of view, that's been made up for some of the problems in the business.

And the business went to, you know, a Bitcoin standard, you know, a couple of years ago as well. So that's also helped us get through this period. - Very cool. Yeah, and like I said, you battled through it.

You got through something that was worse than you could have ever imagined worse than the nightmares that kept you awake at night. And I think maybe that's something to do with going down the rabbit hole and having this personal responsibility.

I find that the people who are involved in Bitcoin seem to be a bit tougher, like seem to just get through shit because, I don't know whether it's because they have to be responsible for themselves in so many ways and think for themselves.

It's definitely a trend and a time where so many people in the world are just desperate and either giving up or breaking down and completely reliant on the state, completely reliant on these handouts.

Real issues going on. There's like this small group of internet widows who are creating all sorts of amazing stuff, thinking outside the box, working on diet, working on health, working on building all sorts of amazing products and just, yeah, it's very different to everything else I see around me

and it's easy to get excited when you're around that sort of energy. - Hey, like, sorry, I just lost you there. I just lost my audio, sorry. - That's all right, there was a little pause for a minute and I was like, okay, I could hear some like shuffling.

- Can you hear me now? - Yeah, there we go. - Ah, that was so weird. It was like, I could see the waves on both of them but it wasn't coming through. I always have some sort of issue, so it's probably my end.

- No, because I just clicked, I had this, I'd pressure it to my foot, so I clicked into this quick time and I clicked that and the second I did that, I don't know, it shut off the headphones.

- I think what it might be is I've heard something like that before and when you switch, it switches the audio preferences and then the audio preferences for the whole system change, so it might then change to come out of speakers or something like that, maybe.

But anyway, we're back. (laughter) That's all right, no problem. But yeah, I can't remember where I lost you there. - Yeah, fuck. - Where did I just lose you? (laughter) - It doesn't matter.

- It was this, what we talked about, it was like, the idea that Bitcoin sort of teaches you self-reliance or resilience, and I suppose, for me, it was almost more that it was just something that I, not all of a sudden, because it happened gradually, but something that I actually cared about a lot,

in all my years in my work and even in pursuing other interests, you know, I don't know that I ever cared about something as much as I do about Bitcoin. You know, I never found anything that, first of all, I thought was that important or was I just that interested in that, you know, getting up out of bed every day,

keen to learn more about it and work in that, you know, work in that field and meet people who are also interested in it. So that's the thing that's changed for me more than anything over the last 12 months.

- It's amazing how it grabs you. Yeah, is there something now that you're thinking about that is particularly exciting you? For example, like, some people are here for number go up. Obviously, some people are here because they're absolutely fucking sick to death of the current system and the dickheads who are controlling it.

Some people are here because they're just fascinated by the technology. There's all sorts of, you know, some people are really interested in the privacy, some people are interested in what it could do, just to streamline everything.

Like, what is it that really makes you so excited about it? - I suppose for me, you know, it's interesting that I started, the journey sort of started in an effort for me to learn more about investing and finance just in general.

You know, I was, you know, reading Warren Buffett's letters or Benjamin Graham and learning about value investing and that kind of thing. And, you know, eventually, so my initial interest in Bitcoin was, I suppose, from an investment, as an investment decision, but as I learned more about it, that sort of changed,

and it's been interesting kind of reflecting and watching myself over the last couple of years, how I've progressed to a point where, you know, I still believe, you know, I try and objectively look on it as much as I can, and I think as we all live, it's a good investment financially, I think it's a good decision, but it's definitely gone

to the point now where it's more than that, and the, you know, the dollar value of Bitcoin really isn't that important. You know, I just see it as sort of almost like a moral imperative to own Bitcoin, like, you know, going back to where we started with, like, you know, having to own government bonds,

and, like, I think, you know, I just can't, I have trouble now, you know, doing anything from a finance or investing point of view, other than owning Bitcoin, just because, yeah, I just, you know, as we talked about, like, the more you can distance yourself from that system, the better, you know, I just, you know,

I was amazed that I came across something that I thought would be so both financially rewarding, but also, you know, I just think it's a force for good in the world. That's more powerful than just about anything else, and I'm certainly not a technical person, really, like, or a technologist.

I mean, I took the time to learn about how Bitcoin works, technically, just because I thought that was an important thing to learn, but, you know, that's, and privacy is also something that I think is important, and also something that I practice, but I suppose, you know,

that stuff is, is like, I feel like I almost feel an obligation to engage in best practices, but from that point of view, and try new stuff, you know, whether it's coin joining or multi-seg or, you know, learning about using different wallets and lightning and things like that, but I suppose it really is, for me, the thing that drives me

is that bigger picture that I suppose is laid out in hard money, which is that our system is broken. You know, it's just, and the more, the more you learn about it, the worse you realize it is, and the more you realize that everything, certainly for me, everything that I had learned just about in economics

and about the way things work is wrong and turned upside down and purposefully made difficult to understand in order to sort of mask what it's really about, which is sort of just an exercise in raw power, and Bitcoin is, I think, the best expression of the thing that I hold

most valuable, which is people engaging in voluntary exchange and expressing, you know, their preferences through the free market. You know, I think that is the fundamental basis of our civilization, and, you know, I think engaging in Bitcoin is the freest expression of that.

And do you think we win this battle? Do you feel confident that we get to where we want to go and we create this freedom for the world? We create the ability for people to have these free markets, and if we do manage to win, how do you think that changes things?

I think so. I think I do have confidence. It's just that whether it happens, how much of it happens in my lifetime, I'm not so sure, like, I think it's a long battle ahead, but this is the big question that I ponder more than anything, which is whether Bitcoin is inevitable or not.

Like, is it such a powerful force that it just eventually, kind of, dismantles everything else? And, you know, the book that's influenced me probably more than anything is the sovereign individual where they say that this change in, I suppose they do talk about cryptocurrency,

even this was written 20 years ago, whatever, before Bitcoin. So it's amazing how they predicted this, but they're talking about more that the digital revolution, the computer processing and the dematerialization of capital and of value, and they see that phenomenon as fundamentally altering this kind of balance of power

to the point where the state inevitably has to recede, and like the individual's power against the state will grow to the point where, you know, we will see, I suppose, a better world, you know, anything that moves us towards smaller government, I think, is a better world.

But they are not shy in saying that there's definitely a period of a difficult period because, you know, the states that we've got near these giant nation states, you know, won't necessarily go down without a fight.

You know, as states start to lose their ability to extract resources as, you know, capital and people become more mobile, I think their response to that would be to crack down even further attacks, even more, you know, whatever we can get our hands on.

So I think, you know, and being parallel to that is this growth in populism and, you know, a middle class and working class that is getting screwed by the system more than anyone else and don't have the mobility to escape it.

So, yeah, unfortunately, I think I see things getting worse before they get better. But, you know, I guess anyone can improve their own position by going onto a personal Bitcoin standard.

And I think that, you know, if any individual takes that course, they can make their own path a lot easier. Yeah, it's quite so important to have work like you're producing and to create an argument for Bitcoin and for freedom,

because the media and the way things are portrayed on the news and the way that people perceive Bitcoin and perceive what's happening is completely corrupted and its total lies. And, you know, that's why I really liked that quick clip that you've done of defund the fiat criminals.

And these sort of things are really going to help just highlight and win this sort of meme warfare because it is the battle of ideas. And I agree with you. I think things are going to get really, really messy.

I think things are probably going to get very violent. I think probably a lot of Bitcoiners or freedom lovers are going to have to leave the countries that they're currently in. It's certainly something that I'm strongly considering at the moment being from the UK. I see our freedoms being taken.

And I mean, just what's happened over the last year and a half makes me... I'll tell you what, I was a lazy bastard for a long time. I didn't get in the gym for about a year. I'm in there every day now like a fucking animal because I'm angry.

I'm just in there just smashing weights around until I cannot move because I'm just so fucking pissed off with what I'm seeing. I'm so disgusted with the way that our freedoms are being taken and how obvious it is, the moves that they're making, how obvious it was a year and a half ago what they were going to be doing

and the forced vaccinations that I'm sure will come and these vaccine passports that I'm sure will come and the fact that they're going to keep stealing everyone's wealth and they're pissing in everyone's faces and telling them it's raining.

And the funny thing is, or not funny, it's sad really, is that everyone believes it. And it's just a small group and that small group is a group that they're going to want to stamp down on and that's us.

And so it's really important that we try and find ways to not only protect ourselves physically and financially, but also protect the ideas that we have and so that people see, hang on a minute, are these all a group of criminals and drug dealers and terrorists and whatever else they want to label us with?

Or are they actually people who want freedom and want to look after their families and want a better world? Because I've been in this space for long enough and spoken to enough people that it's very fucking obvious that it is a good group of people.

Yes, you're going to have some criminals. Yes, you're going to have some bad actors. You do it. You do everywhere. But I've never seen so much good. I've never seen so much passion, excitement, love, respect, anywhere else.

And we need to make that shown. And that's why I love when I see really good quality work, artwork, video, whatever it is to portray that. Yeah, I think I agree. I think that pointing out this sort of hypocrisy and double standard is a pretty effective way to try and get the message across.

I just can't believe the height of it, the way they talk about criminal activity in relation to Bitcoin. And yet you've got Christine Lagarde, who's literally convicted of basically rubber stamping and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of payments of taxpayer money

to shady businessmen as a payoff for election promises. And just not punished at all and go straight back to work, promoted. Yeah, she's at the National Monetary Fund. And still kept that job. The guy before her did get kicked out because of that sexual assault scandal.

It's like, what does it take to get rid of someone in this position? And, you know, minutians, another classic example of this hypocritical, like, revolving door sort of thing. And this is the other thing that I've got a problem with, which is that, you know, capitalism inverted commas gets all the blame for this.

But, you know, the problem is not capitalism. The problem is this sort of state, you know, all the garky where there's no real differentiation between the state and the corporations, you know, and everything runs on backhand deals and, you know, like, Mnuchin works in investment banking for 20 years with Goldman Sachs.

Like, then he, you know, he sort of gets involved in, you know, doing the financial crisis, like, you know, gets these rich bankers together to buy these distressed banks that then receive a bunch of money from the government through this federal deposit insurance scheme.

Like, it's not the free market at work. It's just that classic example of who's the closest to the money speaker. Like, how, you know, how well can you whiz yourself up into the, you know, as close as you can to the free money, the money printers, you know, and on your foreclosing against tens and tens of thousands of people

who are struggling with them mortgages on the way to make your billions of dollars. And then through the revolving door back into the government as Secretary of the Treasury, you know, that's the, it's one of, that's one of the kind of peak expressions of where we've come to that, like, how broken the whole system is.

So, yeah, I agree that, you know, whatever material you can find in the meme warfare, you know, that's some of the good stuff. And it seems that the element of, like, a little bit of comedy seems to help, you know, just fighting these people and these ideas with just straight facts doesn't work

because people have been so conditioned to just believe what the authority tells them. They've been conditioned through schooling, through work, through the programming from that little box that they watch when they get home from work.

And they will not accept no matter how clear it is that the systems are wrong, that people are stealing, that there is this corruption. It doesn't work unless you sort of, like you said, like point out the hypocrisy.

You have to kind of be the joker that reveals just what these people are actually doing and doing it in a way that's, I don't know, not trying to win just purely on an intellectual basis, but sort of like capture the imaginations and point and laugh at these clowns because it is just a group of clowns

that, as you said before, have like, they're just a massive steaming pile of shit and they've just created smoke and mirrors and made it so confusing for anyone to even try and understand.

And people are scared to try and understand it. You have to do so much work to understand what is really going on with the money. And people are just tired, you know, people are working, they've got families, they don't want to sit and learn about all this stuff.

So if we can just point and laugh and show how hypocritical these people are and do it in that way, I really think that's an effective way of doing things. Yeah, and I certainly don't pay any heed to the people who say that, you know, there's a problem in the image problem in Bitcoin, like in that, you know,

people are mean or like toxic or whatever. I just think that that's absolutely a feature, not a bug. You know, I just don't think you can compromise, you know, in that respect. And, like, I don't know.

You sometimes wonder how it is for people on, say, Twitter. Like if you're just some person on Twitter, it is somehow one day, find yourself stumbling into Bitcoin, Twitter. You know, I wonder, that is one thing I wonder.

Is it like, is it an echo chamber or do we sometimes, you know, do you sometimes break through and actually change someone's mind? You know, I think the people that you're targeting with this trolling are beyond help.

You know, like I think, you know, people who are on that path of government's going to save us socialism, you know, more taxation, more government control. You know, I don't think these people are going to be helped.

It's, but I suppose you do see just the swelling of the ranks of those that are interested in Bitcoin. Like that's very evident on Twitter over the last 12 or 18 months compared to what it was back in, say, 2019, like just the volume of people now who are in terms of the followings that a lot of the people have on Twitter

who are providing this good content. Like that's a great thing to see. So I suppose the, yeah, it's, you wonder sometimes whether, you know, whether you're getting through, but on the other hand, like I don't know that I care that much about like helping people.

Like people are going to have to figure this out for themselves. Like we're all kind of having fun, I suppose. And that's the thing that I've enjoyed over this pandemic is that, you know, I certainly feel a sense of community and a sense of a positive outlook for the future,

whereas I don't know, it must be hard for someone who doesn't quite know how to get their bearings in that scenario and is like possibly sees that certainly the answers that are being provided by the government don't add up.

But, and that, you know, you're, that they're working harder than ever compared to, say, their parents' generation and getting less for it. And, you know, they don't have time to, they literally don't have time.

Most people don't have time to take a step back and reflect on all this and find their way, you know, make their way through all this shit to actually kind of get a clear picture of what's going on.

So it's hard, man. And it's hard to, the other thing that's hard is to separate yourself from this sort of conspiracy theory crowd in that, like, certainly here in Australia, and I'm sure it's everywhere, like anyone who's not towing the line in terms of the narrative

that's built up by the government and the state and the kind of mainstream media is a conspiracy theorist. It's like, oh, you're a, you're a kind of, you know, 5G coronavirus tin pot hat sort of thing like everyone's lumped into that.

It's just black and white, I suppose. And so, and whilst I think that's ridiculous, I also do understand that like there is a temptation to sort of rail against this like unseen, dark, like the government, like them, like the, it's like the powerful people are out to get us.

Like, I think we've got to be careful to really define what the problem actually is and where the problem comes from. And it's not that easy to do. And, and it's not necessarily that, like, there's a bunch of rich, powerful people in suits in a back room, making deals that are screwing everyone else over.

I think it's more just that, like, you look at these politicians trying to deal with this COVID crisis and it's obvious that they're just, they're just clueless.

Like, they've just, they've just got no, like, I don't think there's an ulterior motive. They're just literally like being blown about in the wind, you know, trying to find the most popular course.

And, you know, it's just that the incentive structure has been set up in a way that brings, you know, brings out this. You know, unfortunately, the worst kind of people enter into leadership positions in the war that we've got.

And, you know, the, the people that we get in positions of power through the democratic process are bad enough. And, but let alone these, these kind of unelected bureaucrats in the international monetary fund or the bank of international settlements or the financial task force or like.

It's like, you know, who gave these people the authority to make decisions on my behalf about what I can do with, with my own property like that's just ridiculous.

You know, as I said, I have enough of a, of a personal struggle with, with the democratic process in that I, you know, I guess I see in, in the Bitcoin space, sometimes this argument between those that are pro democracy versus those.

Those that are, you know, so democracies are scam, you know, it's just as bad as, as any other system. And I sympathize with that view, because I see, but I, because I think that, you know, look at, look at where we are, like where we're sort of at the end of the road of a hundred years of democracy

and Anna, you look at a country, you know, you're in the UK, I'm in Australia, look at a country like the US, which was founded on these principles of the individual of liberty of, you know, rejection of government, basically, like, how can we set up a state?

Or how can we set up a country where we can live together? Like we're acknowledging that government is a necessary evil. So how can we minimize it and live in a way that, you know, our basic rights are somehow protected by the institution, but that, you know, it can't overreach.

And that vision has been very, you know, sorely lost over the last couple hundred years. So, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a difficult. It's just, it's just one of those really hard problems that I don't know what the answer is to.

Like, you know, in the sovereign individual, they talk about how democracies kind of just a version of socialism, where, you know, the citizens are just allowed a bit of extra leech, you know, you're allowed to create.

You've given just enough room to have the motivation to create wealth. And then the state sort of takes it back from you to the point where they try and, you know, keep a can down the road, as long as it's sustainable and it is a more sustainable system and socialism, but at its core.

I don't know that it's that different because you've got, it's just one group extracting, you know, taking advantage of another group in society, basically. And, and the only difference is that, like, you know, any individual has the ability to get into that group where you get to wheel the power and do the extracting of the resources.

So, you know, I don't know that I go, you know, one, one other book that's influenced me a lot is is democracy, the God that failed by a hand term and hopper. And I don't know that I go that far as this in terms of saying that the democracy is a failure because I just don't know if there's a.

I mean, I think the better alternative is anarchy, but if you look back through history, the, you know, the states that have the sued democracy have definitely fared better over the course of the last century so but but that's probably just because

there's a, I guess a co instance between democracy and the free market. And it's really that, you know, the free market work is the thing that's brought prosperity more more than anything.

Yeah, it's a difficult one. It's like, I think naturally people want to cooperate. Generally, there's only a very small group of people who cause major issues.

Those people who cause the issues are the sociopaths, the psychopaths who are particularly good at climbing hierarchical structures. They're perfectly, they're literally designed for it. And so what kind of happens is in these democracies or so called democracies is these people will climb to the top.

They will also do the same in these unelected systems. They will create for themselves to get more power. And yeah, I think that there comes a point. You know, you're talking about the conspiracy theory stuff.

I think it's just that there comes a point. I mean, I'm very much lean one way. Like, I don't believe that obvious stupid shit like, you know, the earth's flat or anything like that. Like, you know, there's a lot of dumb theories out there. But in terms of

when you go far enough down the rabbit hole and you see how wrong, not necessarily just lies, but how wrong? Like, they're wrong about the money. They are wrong about a huge part of education. They're wrong about the food. They're wrong about like, whatever rabbit hole you choose to go down, you're like, oh, well, that's bullshit.

And so it does get you to a point where you go, well, is everything a fucking lie? Do I have to fact check absolutely everything? And then if this is the case that everything's wrong and there are these people who are really taking advantage and they must know.

Like, yes, there are politicians who are basically puppets or just stupid, you know, they're scrambling around. They're confused and they're out of their depth. But I've got to the point where, yeah, if there was a red button and it was just anarchy, you could just completely remove everything.

And yes, you would have a lot of violence. You'd have a massive adjustment period and it could be quite scary for a while. I would press it. I would press it because I think that you kind of have to destroy everything that's there and start fresh and I do believe in the good of people.

I do believe, especially with the technologies that we have now, like, you know, we couldn't communicate and share value and do all the things that we can do with the Internet and with Bitcoin to help humans organize ourselves and collaborate.

And we didn't really have that before. We do now. And I kind of think that these necessary evils are becoming less and less necessary. I suppose that does make me a sort of conspiracy theorist thinking that a lot of these people are doing harm on purpose, but it's hard not to. I think it's hard not to see through the bullshit, I think.

Yeah, I agree. When you say, like, shit, like, is everything literally a fucking lie? I mean, you're not that far off. And the food's another big one, you know, like how they, you know, the official health advice, you know, in terms of, you know, what's prescribed as a healthy diet.

You know, yeah, that's another rabbit hole where it's like, you just lose faith in the system. And it's probably, you know, it's another example of this sort of polarization and corporatization of health care.

And don't get the wrong. Like, I think that health should be corporate, you know, it should be a purely free market. Like, I think that, you know, the problem is you get these advisory boards putting out, you know, these are how many serves of, like, obviously, like the government institutions get paid off by the corporations,

whether they're like the corn producers or the sugar producers or whatever. But like, it's the fact that you've got the government institution that can be bought in the first place that is the cause of the problem.

Like, if you just had, you know, everyone in a free market, you know, competing on their own merits, I don't think this misinformation would be able to occur to such a systemic level.

I suppose a good thing about Bitcoin for me, like, and, you know, as you say, oh, you know, if I could just push the button and destroy everything, like, I mean, it's tempting, isn't it?

I suppose the good thing about Bitcoin is that, like, I think that's enough. Like, if you could just stop them, that is, if you could stop governments from funding themselves by inflation.

Like, if that would solve so much of the problem, like, if you could just, yeah, if you could just get it to a point where, okay, if you, if you as a government want to run a program, you have to convince, you have to tax me, like you have to come and take my money,

literally take the money out of my hands and get me to agree to it. Like, that would solve a lot of the problem, I think.

And so, yeah, I don't, and that's why, you know, buying Bitcoin is, is that peaceful protest that I hope will make a difference, you know, it might take longer than we'll think, but, you know, I do believe it is the most effective way.

You know, certainly I don't think engaging in the, in the political process is going to help. Yeah, I think it just exit, exit the system. And as you say, like, with the way things are now, like, you can sort of, you know, you find a community of like minded people all around the world.

You can sort of, you know, without, you know, you outsource your, you can sort of remove a lot of aspects of your life from that, you know, the system that you live under and sort of choose your own path.

So, yeah, there are reasons to be positive for the future, I guess.

It's currently a peaceful protest and then changing things by stepping away rather than just trying to fight all the time. It's, it makes a lot of sense. It, it conserves energy and you can focus that on on productive things rather than just bashing your head against a brick wall.

I think you're right. There is a lot of reason to be positive about the future. Before we finish the interview up, it's, firstly, it's been really, really nice to speak to you, mate. I've really enjoyed it. I just wondered if there's anything else that you're working on now that you can discuss or that's coming up in the future.

Yes, so I'm, I've got a couple of things in the works. One is a project. It's based on the article by Alex Gladstein the petrodollar hidden cost to the petrodollar. So I've been working on that, trying to turn that into a bit of a documentary over the last few months, and that's coming along along quite well. It should.

You know, it's, that's something that, that, you know, within the next couple of months, I should be ready. Awesome. And it's, yeah, it's nice. I got to spend a while, not really, it took me a while to find something that I felt would really work as a, as another film project to follow up, some of the other stuff I've done.

But, you know, Alex's piece, I just, you know, it's just, it's such a good, you know, explanation of the problems with our current system. And I think it fits with my, the way I seem to work in terms of my contribution to, to be kind is not necessarily dealing with Bitcoin directly.

You know, as I said, I'm not a technical expert on Bitcoin, but it's more like, make, like trying to get it through people's heads that their system is broken.

And, you know, if you live in a country like I do, or like, you know, people can go their whole life without even really thinking about money or without realizing that there's a problem, because it sort of works well enough, you know.

But, yeah, you've got to make people realize that they've got a problem first, and then they might be receptive to Bitcoin. So I sort of like to work, you know, around the edge of the rabbit, like lead you to the edge of the rabbit hole, and then hopefully it won't take much of a push to push you in.

So yeah, that's the next thing, thing in the pipeline for me. That'll be, be ready within the next few months. Cool. Well, I really look forward to seeing that when it's out. And anyone who's listening and hasn't already checked them out, you have to go to hardmoneyfilm.com and anatomystatefilm.com.

It's really brilliant work. And, like I can't wait to see what else comes up. It's been a pleasure speaking to you and massive respect for what you're doing, mate. Really, really cool.

Talking about this kind of stuff with, like, a lot of people, and, you know, thanks for the work that you do, you know, getting the message out about Bitcoin and these issues. So, it's been an absolute pleasure.

All right, mate. I'm sure we'll speak again soon. And, yeah, take care. Have a good day, mate. Cheers, mate.