Hacking the real world outside of bitcoin and opensource with Urbanhacker.

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Yeah.

Yeah. All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back. Today's episode is with Urban Hacker. He's become a good friend, although we are yet to meet in person. I really like chatting to him. He is very practical, down to earth, and highly capable.

He has released another new project in the mining space. So, this is something that we teased on our plebminer monthly, but we went into a little bit more detail here, as well as talking more generally about self-hosting, privacy, and how to actually help yourself out in the real world.

It's all well and good being private and secure online, but it's worth thinking about the physical world as well. So, we talk about this as well as a sprinkling of UFO talk. Before we start, I want to say a massive thank you to everyone who's been boosting the show.

It really does blow my mind to see us as number one episode on The Fountain Charts and number one show on The Fountain Charts. Pretty fucking cool, and it's all down to you guys, boosting the show, sending in comments, and I really seriously appreciate it.

Thank you so much. I'd also like to thank the sponsors of the show, Foundation Devices, who make my favorite hardware. I'm sure you've already seen this beautiful thing, but if you haven't already, you can go to their website at foundation devices.com.

You can also go if you're going to Amsterdam and check them out. They have a stand there. You can go and see one in person, ask all the questions you need to ask, but I'll give you a rundown now.

It's beautifully designed. It's really, really simple to use. You can use it with a QR code scanner. It takes seconds. It's very secure. It's fully open source, and it has, in my opinion, the best team in Bitcoin behind it.

You can use the code ungovernable if you want three months VPN for free with IVPN. You will also be getting this device at $199. It has just been reduced in the last few months. It was, I think, $299.

I think it's incredible value, and I absolutely love this team, but if you have any questions, you can reach out to me. I'd also like to thank SX6.store. They're making really fucking nice quality, metal still backup plates, and they're selling them for £16.99.

For you, Yanks, that's a battle. $20-ish, they really are incredible value. They are made of marine grade steel, so if you have a fire or a flood, you will not lose your seeds, like you would if you have it on paper and some notebook, or on some electronic device, which will burn, or be fucked by the water.

If you haven't already checked them out, go to SX6.store. There is a chill code. I can never remember it. Try Ungovernable, and if it's not that, let me know, and I'll make sure you do get the chill code, and Black Coffee, if you're listening to this, mate, can you let me know what my chill code is?

I think it's ungovernable. Either way, if you haven't already stamped your seed into steel, make sure you go and do it. There's no reason not to, at these prices, go to SX6.store. And finally, if you want to support the show, and you also want the best, most private, most secure node in the Bitcoin world, you need to go to Ronundojo.com,

and you need to use the code Ungovernable. There you will give you a discount. I will get some sats. Everyone's a winner. - Do you hear me? - Loud and clear, mate. - Great. You know, I'm on Linux, and it's always a challenge.

And it doesn't work. You're fighting the good fight. I have to say, when it comes to the podcasting and editing and all that stuff, I do use the cucked option. I struggle enough, technically, as it is, to get this show out, and using Linux for it, I just can't deal with those sort of fuck ups.

And I'm using everything that I touch on Bitcoin land, is Linux. I run everything on Linux. But when it comes to doing anything productive, I still use the cucked version. So anyone can shout on me about that.

But at the end of the day, I don't have to fuck around with it. - No. - I think you're right, you need to put a show out. And there are certain concessions sometimes to do. And when I was working in open source, I would often use Windows tools, like debugger, code analyzer, to make the product better.

Not because I liked Microsoft specially. And you have to remember this was, you know, in 2008, when Microsoft hated open source, not like now where they are kind of like, they accepted it.

And I got a lot of heat sometime for that. But to me, my job was to make a great open source project. It was not to test Linux, and yeah. But, you know, at work, I use Windows every day. So I like to have at home, I have both.

But my main computer is on Linux, and then usually I do everything on Linux. But yeah, everything is working. The Bluetooth stuff is working, the working stuff, yeah. - Well, it's been far too long, mate.

We've had a few voice notes here and there, but it's been way too long since we last spoke. And yeah, it's good to have you on and just have a proper conversation. 'Cause it's usually voice notes while I'm on the motorway, charging around busy and we can't hear each other properly or you're dipping in and out of work to send a voice note.

And so yeah, it's good to have a proper chat. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wish we could have done this earlier. I think it's almost a year, isn't it? Because I went to Bitcoin Amsterdam, which was in October, if I remember, or November.

And then we recorded shortly before I went there. So yeah, it's probably a year since we had a proper discussion, which is quite crazy if you think about it. Way too long. - You seem to always be tinkering and building.

You're almost like the complete polar opposite of me in the sense that you seem to love building and making and playing and testing technology and you're very good at it. And I'm very good at breaking and ruining and fucking up technology.

And I hate doing it and I do it when I have to. But somehow we're friends, anyway. - Well, yeah, but if we would be both breaking or both building, that would not be as fun, right? (laughing) - This is true, this is true.

- You know, I love to discuss with people that are like opposite of me, because if I completely, you know, one of my best friends is the most left-wing guy you could imagine, but somehow we go along well.

And I'm like, you know, the rootless capitalist. And we have a lot of very cool conversation. Just one thing, I just will take something against my cough, I forgot, and I don't want to disrupt too much the pot.

So give me two seconds. - Yeah, no worries. - You can talk in the meantime, I can listen to you, but I will not able to answer for you. - Well, while you're doing that, I shall pour myself my coffee in my cafeteria that John calls gay, but I don't think it is, I think it's really nice.

(whirring) - What type of cafeteria do you use? - Just a basic, it's a Boden one, so it's like a nice quality one. Just a basic French press. - Ooh. - It just does the job. I've also got one of those not percolators.

What's the one where you like, you put the water in the bottom, a funnel that goes up the middle, and you put the coffee halfway up, and then as the steam runs through, the steam goes up a tube through the coffee, and then overspills into a separate cup.

Can't remember what it's called now. I have one of those. I could just never be asked to set it up. (laughing) It's way cheaper 'cause I used to fuck around with, you know, like the Nespresso pods or like stuff like that, just where you have to buy the little separate capsules.

(coughing) I've quit your cough now. A, they were not that good, and B, it was expensive. Whereas what I do is I wait for there to be like a final sale on ground coffee where they do like final reductions, and I just go in, I just buy the whole fucking lot, and then that will do me for months.

- Nice. - I'm actually drinking coffee from El Salvador, and it's very nice. - Oh, it's nice. I use the one you described, the one with the funnel. This is what I use. And actually I also made a coffee.

You know, my breakfast is coffee with honey and built on like homemade built-on. - That's my... And you know, it's funny because at work, it's like, it's also how people perceived you. I don't necessarily see myself as, you know, like a tough guy or anything.

I'm just, you know, an average software developer. But at the office, because I cut my own meat, I go to a farmer, I buy, you know, like chunk of like 40 kilos of meat at once. I have like freezer, like somehow people see you differently.

You know, the way you are perceived when you come every morning with like a chunk of built-on and then you just eat that with coffee. It's funny and I don't feel I am that different from them, but it's funny perception how it works.

- Maybe they can sense it. You're gonna be more healthy and stronger because you are eating a better diet and you are thinking differently. They can sense it, isn't you? - I think you're right.

I think people see it like you. It's, I don't know, but I would say the attitude of people completely changed toward me since I started that. I don't give a shit about what people think about, you know?

But it's quite cool to see. You know, it's a bit like when you grow a beard, people see you differently. Recently, I was in the desert and I was wearing the local, you know, stuff with the like the stuff you put on top of your head.

Turban, I think is cool. I'm not sure of the word, anyway. And then I had like aviator sunglasses and I was driving like a off-road vehicle in the desert and people, I was not local at all.

You know, I couldn't speak Arabic. I would be, you know, but the way people perceived you. So like thinking I'm some kind of, I don't know, local person or something, which is interesting to see.

And it was quite a nice break. - Yeah. - But yeah, you said about tinkering. My last project was the one you teased people. - Yeah. - And actually I loved the timing because I released it today before you teased.

So, and we didn't synchronize at all on that. This was, you know, was on my own journey and yes, I've released a Bitcoin minor setup for Raspberry Pi called Shurikum. And the idea is that I wanted to democratize Bitcoin mining in a way that you do not need anything except a Raspberry Pi and a Raspberry Pi you can buy anywhere.

- Or repurpose. - Yeah, repurpose it. - People who were running nodes might consider, oh, I ran a node on a Pi. They're a bit shit to run a node on. Maybe I can upgrade my node to something else and then I can still use the Pi for this.

- So I advise people on the website, if you're running your node like Umbrell or whatever, on a Raspberry Pi, just a great, just go on Ronandojo, put yourself with a nice device, one of their Tonto, I think it's what's called.

It's a bit expensive, but you get like a really like completely passive cooling, very powerful. Your wallet will synchronize very quickly and all of that. And then just use the Raspberry Pi for mining.

- That would be the best thing. - Running Raspberry Pi for nodes is, like it was cool. And that's what I used to do and I learned a lot doing it, but I'd never consider doing it again. It's just, it's a pointless exercise.

I'll always show Ronandojo, I love that team so much. But even if you don't run a Ronandojo or you wanna run something else, still just fucking run it on an old desktop or something that has a bit more power because they're just not up to the job.

It's just not, it's not worth a hassle. - Or go for like an Intel Nuke or like one of those, you know, small factor computer. You will get for roughly slightly more expensive than a Ronandojo, but then you have to set it up yourself, right?

So it's a bit, this is the thing. It depends what people want though. It's like I don't use lightning particularly, like if I do it's only for streaming sets to the pod and I use Phoenix and it's okay, but I tend not to use it that much.

And then we have BTC pay server for our website. It's all of that lightning stuff we deal with separately. Like I don't run a separate node for it anymore. So for people like me who are like, I just want my samurai wallet to work and I want everything to work and be stable, then I'm like, the obvious thing is Ronandojo.

There's nothing better. But, you know, some people do like to fuck around and have like a hundred different apps on there. Not that I suggest this, but some people want to have a hundred different apps and run all this different stuff and lightning and this and testing a load of different things.

And a Ronandojo doesn't do that. It just does one thing very well. And if you want millions of different things, then probably they're better off running a PC, like you said, like a, yeah, a little mini PC or something.

- So I must be very rare because I do have a powerful server and actually it doesn't have thousands of apps. - You are rare. - Yeah. - You're a rare breed. - A lot of the raw power, like I don't give a shit about, you know, all the thousand of apps that Amrel is doing.

I just want a really powerful fast. But, you know, I am also in a bit different situation because I have like a few people using my dojo. So I want them to have a good experience, you know, if they open the app and then it takes two hours to synchronize, they are not gonna open the app ever again.

So if they can open the app and then they have the really good experience of everything is there, everything just works, that for me is priceless. And this is why I have like a really beefy computer with like 64 gigs of RAM just dedicated for the Bitcoin stuff.

- Yeah. - But most people, it's overkill. Most people with Tanto, you will have something really good. - Yeah, especially like it's so fast now when you can run, have you run Fulcrum yet?

- Actually, not yet because I, so, yeah, I know, I know, I know, but the thing is I have my own set up. So for me, it's not just a bit like, it's changing more than just changing the software.

Like it requires, you know, like, so I will probably do it, but I have also to make it, I cannot shut it down, you know, because someone could be, you know, out of the 10, 20 people who are using my node, how do I do a maintenance on that?

I need to be careful, right? So sometimes I write to like my private telegram channel. I'm like, "Hey, guys, I'm gonna update the server tomorrow, "so I'm gonna shut it down for two hours."

But I need to be, you know, now I'm a bit like an IT guy, so I need to be more smart, but I want soon to, but I would probably need to try it out first to make sure everything is working and...

- Yeah, well, honestly, when I used it, I was waiting, because I've got a wallet with lots of transactions, very, very old, that I've been using Samurai one for years and years and years.

So, you know, it takes a long time when you're firing the thing up. And I tried with Electrum for hours, like the depth of the wallet. They just kept failing. And then I spoke to brother Rabbit, he was like, "I'll just use folk room."

And he fucks around and help me do it, 'cause I'm too dumb to do it, but he helped me. And we got it running, and literally, it was instant. It was like one second, and it was done, and everything was there.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's great. Have you considered with all the wallets, like, have you considered just creating a new one to have less depth out of curiosity? - Yeah, I have. It only really comes down to just time, 'cause I've just, you know, just been fucking doing too much recently.

And what I really don't like doing is doing anything Bitcoin related when I don't have time, or I'm too tired, because I don't want to make mistakes. Also, I like having my personalized pain, then.

- Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally get it, because I once changed to show to someone, I changed my passphrase on some right just to show. And then I was a bit drunk, you know, in a bar, showing to people.

And then the next day, I was like, fuck, what did I put together? I took it back, but I was like, geez. - Yeah. - And I was like, never, ever again, that is a stupid thing. - Exactly. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's for sure.

So yeah, that's the new thing that I've been doing, the Shuriken Pie. I had a very chaotic two months that I lived, completely changed my life, and I will not go too much, because it's like boring and personal stories.

But I needed something different, something to change my mind. And then yeah, I was like, why not? I had this device that is now running for several years, this Raspberry Pi, and you know, you can do it yourself, but it's not nice, you have to install, you have to compile, you have to do all this shit.

And I was like, you know what? I might just provide a solution for people where they can just download the script, it install everything, it's nice, the UI. I made the UI in the console, so even if you don't know too much the console, you can just say, yes, no, enter your data, and you're good to go.

And that was also a good exercise, you know. It's hard to make a product that runs everywhere. It's one thing to have your own toy to fuck around. It's another one to have like, yeah. - When you say all the things you just said, right?

I know what you're talking about, because you're in the PLEB minor group, and things have been shit. But for the people who are not so technically literate, can we break it down? What have you built?

How could they use it? Why would they use it? - So, the tool, it's an installer that will take a normal Raspberry Pi with a new operating system that was installed on the SD card and transform it into a Bitcoin minor, right?

What I mean by installer is I didn't actually code the mining stuff itself. But what I did is I made that it downloads the mining stuff, it download a list of mining pools, then you can choose.

So, you have a Raspberry Pi lying around, and you want to try Bitcoin mining because you have heard in Forbes magazine. I think it was that Bitcoin is gonna use all the energy by 2020. So, we are way behind schedule, it's using less than 1% of the total energy on Earth.

So, we need more people using it, right? So, that we can achieve this objective of everybody's mining Bitcoin. And if you have a Raspberry Pi, you just install a new software on it, like Debian or whatever operating system, but I think the default one is called Raspbian.

And you would download my script, and then what it would do is it would update your Raspberry Pi, install the tools, install all the dependencies that are required, and ask you a few questions.

Like for instance, what is your Bitcoin address? What pool would you like to use? Would you like to use a built-in one or a custom one? And then after all of this, it's still command line, but you could easily write like, sure it can start or stop to start or stop mining.

Right now, it doesn't start on its own because it's still a beta software. And I didn't feel comfortable to have like something that runs automatically on other people computer, you know?

Because there might be a bug, there might be issues. But eventually in the future, when you turn on the Raspberry Pi, it just mine. So, you don't need anything else. Maybe you need a fan so that it calls down the device, and you would be solo mining.

What does solo mining means? It means that if it happens that your Raspberry Pi find a block, you will get all the reward. So, it's a very unlikely event, probably it will never happen, especially with the Raspberry Pi.

But if it happens, you will get a lot of Bitcoin. And that is the idea behind the Shuriken Pi. Yeah, it's very unlikely. But what I really like about this project is it's a lot less daunting for someone to play around and jump into mining rather than saying I've got to go and outlay a couple of thousand dollars to buy the miner.

Got to have this big bulky, loud thing sat somewhere and then what do I do with it and how does it work? And it can all seem quite daunting. Whereas with this, it's like, well, I've probably already got a Pi lying around.

I don't have to outlay a load of money. Maybe it's a good way for kids to get into it as well. Like if you got kid to the age where they can tinker, they can do that and that's cool. And then what you're saying about solo mining, yeah, it'd be interesting actually to work out the odds.

Like, is it Euro millions odds? If someone's getting the block reward plus fees if they're solo mining, because presumably the hash power is pretty low. - Yeah, so let's compare it to other device first so that people get an idea, right?

So in solo mining, what we have is we have those nerd miner which are repurposed ESP, I think 32 chip. So what an ESP 32 is, it's a small microprocessor that has like Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, everything enabled.

And you can buy those for like, I don't know, 10 bucks on AliExpress or something. And people have been doing solo mining device like this as a joke. The problem with that is you need to buy an ESP 32.

And then if you're not a hacker, what else do you do with the ESP 32? You will have like, you will play for it for like one hour. And then if you don't like it, it will just sit down there doing nothing.

Now, I have many ideas that I can do with ESP 32. And we could actually speak about this later in the pod. But for regular people, this is probably not a good idea. And then the nerd miner, they are quite expensive as well.

Now you have low power devices and like some ASIC that try to cater to like the low end. There is like a future bit, I think that is doing one. There is like a couple of companies. But there are already several hundred dollar that you need to invest, you know?

And I'm not even talking about like S19 and stuff like this, just. So what is in between? Well, you could also install a CPU or a GPU miner on your computer. But for it's gonna be loud as fuck because your computer now needs to be cooled down.

And then it's gonna slow your computer because it's gonna use all your processing power for that. And there is no easy way to just limit the amount of processing power. It's either full throttle or nothing at all.

And you know, if someone wants to get started, most likely most people have a Raspberry Pi lying around just because you know maybe they bought something, they wanted to experiment with it.

Even if you buy a new one, you can do so many things with it. You know, you could self-host something, you could play around, you could do virtual machine, you could host a website, you could use it as a VPN for your security, you could use it as a Tor node.

So you have a very low risk and I think those are the best advantage that my device have. Now, speaking of the odd, I did the math, I don't remember, but it's like one block in a millionaire or something is like almost impossible.

There is a chance, but it's extremely, extremely low. Maybe I'm wrong in my math, but it's very, very unlikely. You will probably never. But hey, you're learning to manage a small Bitcoin miner, you can monitor it.

One of the update I want to do is to add like temperature monitoring, some kind of web interface because right now it's still command line. It's nice command line, but it's still command line.

So I want to have a web interface that you can start, stop the miner, that you can see the temperature, that you can see the ash rate and stuff like this. And then I mean, if you win it, you get basically six Bitcoin non-KYC, nobody knows you have them.

And that is priceless. I mean, the 10 watt of your Raspberry Pi over a year is not gonna cost you a lot of money anyway. The reward are huge. And I mean, think about this Max. Remember this block like earlier last month that had like 20 Bitcoiners feel like this fuck up.

Imagine if this was mine by like a solo, you know, nerd miner or shuriken pie device, you know, nobody knows now. Suddenly the guy's like, oh, I'm lucky. And they don't have to be cocked like the pool.

Oh, we gonna reimburse and what should we do with it? - Yeah, that fucking guy. - You know, when this happened I was, I told to some friend, I was like, you know, this is what I love Bitcoin.

It makes a mistake that you learn from it. You know, because it's expensive. And then he was like, no, I'm gonna reimburse the whole thing. Not just, he could have reimbursed, I don't know, a part of it or, but no, it just sounds like, oh man.

Anyway. - Especially as it was PayPal. - Yeah, yeah, that as well, that as well. - How much money have those fuckers stolen off people? - Oh, and blocked account and I can imagine it's a lot.

You know, when you're locked out of your PayPal account, good luck to get your money back. - Yeah. - I mean, think about this. I mean, seriously, I mean, you know, it's like, you're not locked and we're gonna put it on hold.

Do you know the story about this, sorry I'm jumping subject? - That's all right. - But do you know what Fipper Zero is? - No. - It's a small device that you can hack anything, break anything, you know, it looks like a toy, but it's actually like all the hacking tool you could imagine in one device.

So you can like spoof it and do it if you can. - This is the one, a friend of mine's got this. Is this where like, if someone does their car blipper and their garage and then it reads it and then it like, it scans and it saves it and then you can get in places.

- Yes, that's the one. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fucking cool. - That's an amazing product. And you know, it's completely leg out and legit. You are allowed to get a pen testing tool to test your network, right?

But I think they got shut down by PayPal or maybe some fundraising. Maybe it was not PayPal, but they got shut down, you know, because they're like, oh, you're building and a hacking device.

You know, if you want to defend yourself against hacker, you need hacking device to know if your network is, but yeah, fuck all those sucker that are like shutting down account of people.

- Long story short, that's the shuriken pie. And I'm sure you will include the link in that description of the pots so people can play with it. And another thing that I want to mention, and I used to shout out a bit, I use your pot for that.

When people say openser doesn't matter because people don't read the code, I say fuck them. Because even my simple thing that maybe was used by 10%, I got people privately messaging me, asking me question about the code to make sure I was not doing anything nefarious and that they would understand what the code was doing.

And to me that was, I was proud, it was a huge honor because you know, they took the time to read the code that I wrote to trust me and to try to make it better. And I already have a couple of things that I fixed and more are coming based on the suggestion of people.

So yes, you might not read the code because you know, not everybody knows how to read the code, but some people will do and some people care. And then they will write to the author of the open source software and hopefully it's fixed in upcoming release.

And I will also say fuck all those people that are, you know, saying oh, it's open source but with condition. No, it's either open source or it's not. And in my case, I use an AGPL license which is a widely recognized open source and free software license.

And there is no extra condition. It's a normal license, you can just use it. The one of the only condition is that you have to make any modification you do open source again. And you know, you have like nodes like umbrella and stuff that gets like all this VC money.

And then they're like, you know, it's open source and you read, no, it's just that you can read the code but you cannot modify it. Or you can read the code but you cannot sell it. Then it's not the posters.

- If someone can't use it to make a product with, in a lot of ways it's gonna take away some of the incentive for that person to review and improve it. And so it then means there are less eyes on that code.

When someone says, oh, well, it doesn't matter, it does matter, it is different. And it's fine, like my view on it all is like, I'd rather have something that's source viewable or source available or whatever someone says, than not, obviously.

You rather that some people can have their eyes on the code than no one can and it's a complete black box and you just don't know what the fuck is happening. But it's not open source, like you say, like it's especially in the Bitcoin world where people make such a fuss of, oh, this is about truth and this is about change

and this is about openness and a verifiable ledger and we don't want this fiat mindset creeping in and blah, blah, blah. They say that out of one side of their mouth and then out of the other, they say, oh yeah, we're open source, but it's a lie.

I just don't think it should be acceptable and it doesn't matter what the company is or who's behind it, it should just be enforced by everyone. If we talk about toxicity in the Bitcoin space, this is something where you do need toxicity because otherwise you have this kind of like slip and then language changes

and then people think that it's acceptable to say, oh yeah, it's open source because it's source available. It's like, no, you have to be clear on these terms. If you don't want to have something open source, that's fine, you can do what you want.

If you want to start a company, if you want to have a product, you can do whatever the fuck you want and no one should tell you otherwise, but just don't lie. - Yeah, that's a good point.

And this is the dilution of brand. It just to be that if you read it's on Git, you can download it's open source. You knew that you could download it, run it and then do a product. You knew that.

Maybe there were like, there are some new ones to that. Some would require you to open source the project as well. Some don't, but like the general idea was that you would be allowed to do your own product.

And I have all those suckers that are like, oh yeah, it's open source, but no, it has condition. No, it's not, you know? And I hate also when, and I will not say name because sadly there is one project that I loved that has done that, but at least they made the source code viewable, but they use like an open source license,

but it's only a fallback. It's like, this is not open source, but in some case, then it would be, you know, open source. And then when you read the code, you say, oh, it's MIT license or oh, it's GPL license.

But actually, no, there is like a terms and condition. And I hate that because, you know, think about this. We have so many bullshit terms and condition. You install Windows 11, you have like 200 pages of terms and condition to sign up.

You sign up on any account, you have all of this. And for so long time, open source was very simple, very clear. And now this is going away and I don't like it. I don't like it. I think it's dangerous.

It's a dangerous trend. And I'm glad that I think Zalco from Ronan Dojo made a Twitter poll about this, because it's completely the notion of brand. And you know what? You said, Max, that even if it's source viewable, there have been many very successful company that have done open source without shenanigans.

And they were still about to make a lot of money and respect the open source ethos. So, you know, it's a bit lazy to say, you know, I get like, versus for my game, I don't want to necessarily to discuss about my game in this episode.

But you know, I said from day one, it will probably be open source in the future. I want it to be. But for now, it's not. Please take into account that. For now, it's not open source. Because I reserve the right myself to do it in the way I want.

But I'm honest with people, you know, it's all about fairness and honesty is you tell people what you're doing. That's the key. That's the key is just the honesty. And that's what I don't like is where you try and muddy the waters and use terms to make yourself look a certain way when actually the truth is something different.

And when people say things like, I'm here for the revolution and I just want Bitcoin to succeed because I truly believe that this is the thing that can save us and help so many people and blah, blah, blah.

If that's truly what you think, then you should want your code to be open. Things being open just makes things so much easier for people to build. So much better, so much more secure. If you really are here for change, then there's no excuse.

You can look at what Ron and Dojo are doing. They're successful. They've got fucking beautiful products. It is possible you have to work harder. And I mean, we could bang on about it all day, mate.

But I think most people who listen to this show understand that. I think it's just getting that information out to people and them understanding the difference and being clear with the wording of things.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I would agree. And, you know, licensing is also not the most exciting topic for a lot. It's like when I'm at some time to read patent and stuff like this, it's like, oh, here we go again.

No, on the most more exciting stuff, I'm not sure if you saw in the Mechterdale, what I wrote, but I'm more and more experimenting with the physical word as well, you know? And this is something I wanted to discuss on your pod about using the...

So first I have to share an anecdote with you. I think it's a good introduction for this. You know, a few months ago, we were driving on the highway with my partner. She was, you know, sitting next to me and I was driving the car and then she looked and on the end of the highway, you know, you have those device that if you smash it,

it's like a spring and it stops your car. So it reduced the impact, right? And the place where we were, the highway goes into the city. So it ends around there. And inside this metal bar here, there was a weird kind of package, you know?

It was like wrap around in some kind of jacket. And she looked at that and she was like, do you think it's drugs? And I was like, I will not check, you know? Not my business. But it's interesting because this shows that you can hide stuff in places.

I started to realize you can use the city and the countryside to your advantage. So for instance, if you buy a small, you know, Airbnb type locker where you can put keys inside. And then you could put in it the keys or you could put other stuff.

You could maybe even put part of your multi-sig or whatever. Then you can make the physical world accessible if you have the knowledge. Recently I had many things I had to get out of my living place many, many times.

And sometimes, you know, I had a needed friend to take care of the cat, make sure the plant have water. And how can I give them the keys? Well, you know, I'm on an emergency and I need to drive two hours in the other direction, right?

And I was like, you know, it would be easy. Just an GDS coordinate. And you tell them, hey, there is a key lock there. Here's the code. The key are gonna be there. And then you can access my apartment.

And if you decentralize the key lock from your flat, the chance that some random guy smashes it open, find the keys and figure out where are the matching keyhole. It's almost gone. You know, if you put like 300 meter away from your house, no way someone is gonna find, you know, especially in a city, that's...

So I started experimenting with this and how to hide things and use the urban environment to your advantage. And then suddenly so many things can become very, very interesting and you can hide stuff in such a way.

Another thing is you could also pay someone like this, you know, let's imagine you're doing P2P Bitcoin transactions and you are afraid for yourself, for your safety, because maybe you live in a country where you could get robbed or, you know, well, what you could do is maybe you put the money in one of those locker.

Now from outside, nobody knows what's inside the locker, right? So unless you have a crazy person starting to smash all the locker, they find, I mean, good luck with all the Airbnb and stuff.

I mean, good luck starting doing that. And then you put it the day before and when someone buys, you know, on Bisk or something, you know, cash for Bitcoin, then you could, you know, text them, "Hey, at this GPS coordinate, you will find a locker.

This is the code and here is the money." - Mm-hmm, it's like dead drop and this is something I'm much more comfortable with. I'm a complete retard when it comes to technical stuff and I don't feel comfortable in command line or really securing anything in the digital world.

But when it comes to the physical world, I feel very comfortable. It's amazing what you can do if you just think slightly outside the box. And like you say, being creative in how you store information or keys to information or keys to keys to information, wherever you are, being in the countryside,

there are lots of options and being in the city, there are lots of options. And also if you have a relatively strong friendship group that are dispersed, you can break things down in terms of, right, how often do I need to have access to this information or this key?

If it's really not very often and it's really important and you really don't want someone to have access to it, maybe it's not a problem if you've got to drive two hours to it in the physical world.

Because maybe that's a good thing if someone's trying to attack you, it makes it an extra step more difficult. But then like you're saying, if it's for a dead drop or something like that, well, maybe it's a lower value and maybe it's something you can change on a daily or weekly basis.

And so therefore, it doesn't matter as much and it's just as important. But I don't think most people, especially technical people are thinking in that way. So it's interesting to see you as someone who's like, so technical to be thinking about this.

- Well, I'm not sure if I mentioned on your part or in one of the national group, but I live in a city which is like, for prepping stuff is extremely dangerous, could be extremely dangerous and extremely hard to prepare.

And how do I hide the fact that I have a food reserves? I have people coming in my apartment. How do I hide this? And what I've done is I've built, if you come to my place in my kitchen, there is a huge shelf.

It's very visible, it's very in the open with a ton of dry food, you know, dry flour, dry rice, beans, stuff like this. All in beautiful glass jar, everything is labeled. Now for you, this looks like a very fancy kitchen.

It looks beautiful. You don't think twice about it. You just look at it like it's nice. But actually it's three months, if not more, of reserved food. But it's hidden in plain sight. And no one would compare that to someone who has like, I don't know, or I have my food pantry and maybe they even show it to someone and they're like,

oh my God, this guy has so much food in it. You wouldn't think when you come to my place that I have so much resource in it. And I don't have to hide it too much because it looks completely different from what you're used to.

But technically it's the same thing, you know, it's a lot of dry food that you can use in case of emergency. And I would say, yes, that is true. Many hackers, they only hack in the digital space.

But you can also hack. I mean, my name is Herban Hacker, right? I think that should give you insight about the type of reason I am. But yeah, it's like, if you look at the city, you know, recently they changed all the toilet and all the toilet furniture, all of them, right?

We had new toilet, new everything. And then I started to see how I can just open those things. You know, just mess around, not breaking anything, right? Because I wouldn't. That's bad and we should respect property.

But I was like, you know, how does that work? And if you start to mess around a bit like this, you would be surprised what you can do. And you would see, you know, everybody walks, everybody goes outside, at least I hope you do.

Stop watching your fucking smartphone, stop watching Bitcoin price, look around you, look at people, look at how they behave. Try to figure out what they think about you. Not because you care, but because maybe this is a way to escape, like, you know, you get stolen from or something.

I can assure you that big pocket and other, like, small crime, they will look at people that have no idea where they are, you know, that are walking like zombie looking at their phone. So what I do is I love to just walk around, look at the city, look at what's around, and that is something very, very interesting.

Because yeah, you feel also way more powerful over your environment. Because now suddenly you notice things that you would not notice. So I give you the example with the key lock. If you put a key lock, and then tomorrow you put your keys inside and it gets stolen, that's shit, right?

You shouldn't do that. What you should do is you put the key lock and you put nothing in it and you wait months, you make it part of the landscape. And then if it's not broken after several months, if you see that no one really cares about, then you can start maybe using it.

Because now people are used that it's there. And probably most people wouldn't care if there is some random lock somewhere. And this is just for one example, but there are so many things you can play with the physical world.

And I would encourage Pitco to think more about those things. And also because if someone comes in your home and I'm very broad in what I'm saying, finding something in your home is very easy.

But if it's outside, you know, if it's in some random locker somewhere, that's much harder. That requires proof of work, you know? - Especially if it's a targeted attack. If someone finds out, right, who is this person?

Where do they live? Come into your house. They're probably gonna find anything physical that you're hiding. But like you say, if it's a random thing in a random place, even if they are targeting you, it's very difficult to find that.

This is something that I think people should really think about when they are securing like seed plates, for example. If you're securing your seed plates, especially if you think you could be targeted, maybe it's not the best idea to keep those in your drawer of your desk.

Yeah, if you have a fire, they're still gonna be there probably. If you have a flood, they're still gonna be there probably. But what if someone is targeting you? Maybe it's not the best thing to have it there.

Maybe it's better to have it in somewhere completely fucking unlinked to you in any way you shape or form. No one would ever go and that you don't go regularly at all. That would be better.

Yeah. These are things to think about. You know, another thing that I will say is, even if you think it's overblown and you're like, you know, why should I do this? I have some time, a lot of people, they think they can become the resistance, you know?

If tyranny comes, everybody's gonna join the resistance and we're all gonna be fine. No, no, you're fucking not. You know, I'm not even sure if I would do it. You know, I wouldn't necessarily trust myself because nobody knows how you react face to that.

But if you start practicing now that, you know, no one is gonna tell you, you know, it's not illegal to hide stuff in random places, you know, as long as it's not drug and stuff like this.

And if you don't practice that now, you think you're gonna do better if you're faced with tyranny or another lockdown where you cannot get out? I mean, you know, yeah, but if you practice now and also you can onboard your friend.

You know, for instance, I don't have many friends that are into hacking and stuff like this. Not like I am. For them, they just found, they're like, okay, you're doing like Airbnb. But now, suddenly they know how you do it.

So they also learn and they saw that it's possible. You know, when I told them, I said, look, I will be out of town. I need you to take care of the cat. Here's some coordinate, the keys of my apartment are there.

You can just, and I had someone that was very surprised. And, you know, if you tell people, oh, you should hide stuff in the public environment and they will be like, my God, you are crazy.

But if you start using, just using. And then you have people using them because, you know, it's like people who put keys in a fake stone. It's just a bit more clever than that. You would be surprised because then you have suddenly friend and family to know how this works, even if they don't realize, you know,

I got this idea when I, with my partner, she ran that some Airbnb and they used that. And I was like, oh, that's clever. So yeah, you should practice that drop things like this and experiment, see how it goes.

Don't put anything of value right away. Look at what works, what doesn't. But I would totally encourage people. And if you don't think it's possible, like, a critic I once heard is that there is not enough space in a city to hide stuff.

I'm like, stop looking at your fucking smartphone. Go search geocaching, go see video of geocaching, and you will see how fucking crazy people go. - You can get very, very creative. - Yeah, yeah, you know, fake pipes, fake utility.

- You know, I mean, imagine you install like a utility box and then you put a huge sign warning, do not touch high tension, a lot of electricity. Do you think anyone is gonna look at what's inside?

Probably not. - Probably some fucking weird I like John. I reckon he'd be super good at that. - I mean, let me look at this wire. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - No, I mean, I went recently to the, to like a ventilation utility from a subway station.

The door was open and I was like, I'm just lost in there, you know, very nice. And then the guy was like, what are we doing here? I was like, oh, sorry, I'm looking for other. (laughs) Oh, yeah, another thing is go talk to people.

You know, if you go to a place like this, don't run away. Because you know, if you run away, of course you're gonna do something bad, right? Of course you were there for stealing stuff. But if you go and talk to the viewer and say, no, I was lost and usually they are very friendly because they're like, okay, no, the exit is there.

And sorry that you went to see our mess. I was like, no, it's okay. (laughs) And it was very interesting. And by the way, the keyhole they have was a standard utility key that is very easy to get as well.

So yeah, it's all very interesting. So again, I don't do illegal shit, right? Don't steal, don't access to stuff that you're not allowed. But think outside of the box. And I think, you know, this evening, while I was chatting with you on Telegram and I was waiting for you to set up the call,

I was looking at a guy that described himself as hacker and he put in his blog the list of all the software he's using. But on the anonymity tool that he's using. And I was like, you're gonna be the next look dashing you.

- You gone. - Is buying Visa credit card this way. He used this, I don't know if he technically, he used this VPN, he used that and that and that. I was like, why the hell would you put this information out?

With his name, I mean, maybe it was not his name. But still, that is, I don't know, I don't know what to say. But that is very, very bad upside. Max, are you here? - Hello. - Are you here?

Hello, Max. - I got you. - And finally, that was weird. I was listening to you typing and clicking and fucking-- - Smearing. - It's sad that it uploaded the stuff. So I hope you got the files.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've saved them. - Okay, good. - I've got them. But yeah, as I said to you before, I'm slightly tight on time 'cause I'm just fucking trying to cram too many jobs into one life.

But you got a little bit of time. I wanted to ask you, when we last spoke, as you were just saying, you sort of put your smartphone away and you look around and you're taking in your environment.

Have you been looking up anymore? And have you seen anything else? - Uh-huh, no, not really. I didn't look up that much. - Mm-hmm. - But yeah, remember we had our last discussion about, no, I have to say I was so busy with so many other stuff that sadly not.

However, I can tell you, I saw a lot of planes and the one I saw was not like a plane at all. And to me this, like when I look up and I see other planes and distinctively see planes, like I've seen, I don't know, dozens of those.

But the one thing that I saw, and I think I even sent you a picture when it happened. - You did, yeah, yeah. - No, no. - Mm-hmm, I'm always looking up. I've not seen anything, but I always do.

Hoping that I see something. - But my partner, so one. - Oh, really? - Yeah, yeah, she told me one night she came and she said, yeah, you have to look at this picture and those video and I was like, oh, what the fuck?

Yeah. And again, you know, not that she would lie or anything, like why would you lie about it? - That was my point. - It's really, exactly, it's really close. And it's like, you know, okay.

- It's not like, I don't know, CNN and I will run and use. Oh, no, I couldn't care less. - Yeah. - But no, no. - There are some people when they tell you things, you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, all right.

You know, you just know someone's a bullshitter, but then with other people, you're like, no, you're telling me the truth. I saw something, but not a craft. So, it's different. - When I share or?

- Yeah, well, I was only not gonna say it again, just because I did say it to, I think it was Zach Herbert, but I'll tell you briefly. So far, I've tried to think how long ago, or there's probably about 10 years ago, I was staying at my auntie's house and she's like in the countryside, like proper, proper countryside.

And I went for a run, like when I was actually fit and healthy. Some going down evening. - You sound like you're gonna die, mate? Are you really sick? - No, it's fine. It's fine. Don't worry about it.

It's asthma, but it's okay. - Ah, okay. Yeah, so anyway, I was coming back from the run, some coming down around where she is. Like there's loads of like steel framed barns, basically. And I see this like orangey pinky big, like very big orangey pinky ball it looked like.

And I was like, that's fucking weird. So I was like walking around to like have a look because it's going along this fence line, like just moving along, sort of walking pace. And I was like, oh, maybe it's just like a big flashlight or something like that, but it doesn't look like a flashlight.

So I was looking again and it carries on moving. And I was like, there's two like orangey pinky to be a flashlight anyway, that would be a different color. And so I carry on walking closer.

And as I walk closer, I started to get this feeling like, oh, this definitely isn't a flashlight. And it doesn't feel normal. Like it felt like something's watching me. It was a really weird feeling, like really fucking weird.

And so anyway, I carried on walking around and then as I started walking around one side of the building, the thing started going faster the other way, like it was trying to not be seen. And so then peer around the side of the building.

And this thing went from like one side of the field to the other side of the field in a flash, like less than a second, just bang goes across. And then I got this sudden feeling like a real weird change where I suddenly was like, I'm actually now uncomfortable now.

I feel like this thing A is watching me and B not pleased. It was like a, I can't even describe like a very weird switch in my head of like, oh, this isn't good. And then it started going towards me and on an instinct rather than run, I ran at it because I was like, I feel like I need to sort of

knock back down or like, I don't really know what I was thinking. I just made like a split decision of like, I need to fucking show this that I'm not scared kind of thing. So I just sprinted at it.

And I don't remember anything after that. Like I just, the next thing I remember is being back at my aunties house. And I never really thought about it for like 10 years until I had a conversation on the pod.

I can't remember what the pod was. We were talking about aliens and different stuff. We were talking about all this different stuff. And then I was like, it sort of creeped me out because I was like, why haven't I thought about this for so long?

Like what, I don't know how I got back. It was a, it was a quite a weird experience. So it was so long ago that like, I don't fucking know what it was. But what I can tell you is it wasn't a craft or like a anything like that.

And it was no animal or human or machine or anything that I've ever seen before. And it moved faster than anything I've ever seen. And it felt like I was being watched. It was really fucking weird.

Like really fucking really weird. So I don't know what the hell it was, but it was something. - It's quite scary to, you know, in a way it's, it's quite scary. Yeah, I think I remember the pod where you mentioned you know about looking around you.

And after that, yeah, I started to look around me. And yeah, this is when I saw there was this like weird silver like object in the sky. And there were planes next to it. Like there was like a plane and it didn't look like a plane.

I checked on a radar, you know, like those flight aware website where you can see what is flying. And all the plane that I was looking at, I could see them like, okay, this is the red plane and it's from Turkish airline.

And the color is red because, you know, obviously the flag of Turkey is red. But this thing had no marking, nothing. It was just like a silver zap plane almost, but much shorter, no wings.

And it didn't behave at all like a plane. And what's weird is that, you know, this was again, in the city, everybody was around me. And this is when I stopped and I looked around, everybody was looking at the smartphone, no idea what's going on.

And I was like, should I tell someone, should I? And this is when I send you the screenshot, the picture, sorry. And I send it to a friend who is a bit into that, you know, I'm interested, but you know, probably like you, it's interesting, but I'm not like actively researching or anything.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I was like, I need to text him. And then he was like, what are the GPS coordinates? Where are you, I'm coming? And then by the time he came, there was nothing.

But it's really something interesting. And, you know, especially after you had like serious people, I take last year that's released documents from the army, you know, people would have a lot to lose if they were lying.

I think it's more acceptable that we have stuff we don't understand. Now, I'm not saying it's, you know, little ET that is, you know, abducting us and stuff like this, but essentially we are, what's going on?

I'm sure there are stuff that we are not told. I wouldn't be surprised if you have like drawn and stuff like this, you know. And then if you are the army and people believe it's a UFO, you are very glad because, you know, it's kind of like a cover for your drawn operation.

But that would also be not be shocked if there are phenomenons that we have no clue what it is. It'd be weird if there wasn't, because we only see a certain spectrum of light. We only understand a very small amount with, like you said, it was so fucking distracted.

Like I make a conscious effort, try not to be constantly on my phone and not to constantly be distracted. Especially when I'm with family and stuff like that. But people are so fucking busy.

You know, in the way like if, if you were kids, they notice and look at stuff, like I was with a mate today and he had two little boys, we were just like chatting in the park. They were going to me, look at that tree, look how many leaves it has on it.

Wow, look, this one has even more. I think this must have this many leaves, and I was thinking, I didn't even fucking realise there's a tree there. But do you know what I mean? 'Cause I'm just like, I'm thinking about all these million different things and oh, I've got to do this and I've got to do that.

And I'm listening to my mate and what he's saying and checking to make sure the kid doesn't fall off or the swing and da, da, da, da, da, da. Like just fucking brain running 100 miles an hour.

And so I just don't even see what is around me. I think a lot of it does come down to that. And maybe it's in the moments where you just take a second and you're not thinking so much that these kind of things happen.

You know, like I was on a run, this was like a long time ago as well. I don't think I even had a smartphone then, you know? Like I wouldn't have been looking around at that. Whereas like now, probably if I ever went on a run, which never fucking happens, but if I did, I'd immediately, the second I stopped running,

I'd probably even either change the song or the podcast that I'm listening to, reply to fucking 100 messages that I haven't had time to do, start doing emails. I'd be bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, doing that.

I wouldn't be looking at a hedge. So yeah, I think a lot of it's that. - My advice to you, put your phone in black and white. You would be surprised, it's very effective. Just in the settings, if you have like a pixel phone or like an iPhone or whatever, there is in the accessibility settings

for like color blind people, just put black and white. And I don't do this as often as I wish I would, but what's interesting is when the phone is in black and white, the whole world seems so much.

You know, I started doing this like years ago before COVID and I was at the Christmas market. And you know, you have all those light and music and there is like, you know, you can drink tea and stuff like this.

I started looking at my phone, the snow was falling, the phone was in black and white. And then I suddenly saw that everybody else, just like my experience by looking up in the sky and realizing something, I saw that everybody else was just watching their cell phone.

And there was this magical moment with the music, with the snow, with the lanterns, the light, and no one was looking at it, no one. And for me, I look at my phone and I was like, "Oh my God, this is boring, it's black and white."

You know, it's boring. So if you struggle with that, and I think everybody, you know, me as well, I have a hard time sometimes just reading a book and this is disastrous. This is not good for us as human.

Putting the phone in black and white really helps to cut the dopamine. And you know, we are hooked. There have been studies where you feed dopamine to rats and you make them complete junkies.

You know, we don't know what those devices are doing to our brain. If you want to make a new food, you're gonna go to FDA, you're gonna have this, you're gonna have that, you're gonna have all this crazy regulation.

Most of it is bullshit, right? But if you make a new TikTok like clone, no one cares. You can just do it. We have no clue what it's doing to our mind. - It's definitely not good. I, we're all addicted for sure.

I actually think I'm not addicted in the sense that I'm like, I really want to fucking use the phone. Mine tends to be getting back to someone about a podcast or trying to sort something out.

Like it's always a work related thing. It's not like, oh, I want to go on Instagram or I want to fucking, I don't know, like whatever, like most people are doing on their phone. It's never really that.

It's always, I just need to message someone back. That tends to be the 90% percent. - The carbon accurate, the carbon accurate asking. - Hey mate, I'm doing a bit going minor and you're like I'm on the road, I'm overtaking a truck.

- Yeah. - No, no, but I know what you mean because for me, it's going to be podcasts about Cypherpunk, about Bitcoin or about. I mean, not so much about Bitcoin, more about, I love, I really just listened to the Samurai podcast because I love those guys so much.

Like it's always interesting and it's not so much about Bitcoin, but at the end of the day, I'm not sure if it matters because I get what you mean and I feel smarter about it because I'm like, I'm not like those peasant watching TikTok video of people in swimsuit or something.

I'm looking at, I don't know, like Cypherpunk, changing the world, but at the end of the day, we're still on our device. We still get the dopamine and all of that. What is really hard and I think what could make me watch less of it is if I could have like you at a bar and we get some whiskey or some beer or whatever, rum

and we just have, you know, a nice brisket and we can discuss, I'm sure we would, each other, we would never see the smartphone for like the two hours of our discussion. I'm sure about that. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For sure. - And for me, if I go with people, I'm like, it's so boring. Like, oh my God, the cost of healthcare is rising. And then, you know, they will either talk about stuff like cars, like, you know, mostly cars and objects, possessions or they will talk about people

or they will talk, you know, like what Trump did, what Biden, which I don't give a shot. Or they will talk about a combination of both or the climate, you know, something like this. And I cannot, I cannot stand this.

I cannot, I'm out. I'm out. I cannot stand it. I have zero patience for that. Especially because when you tell them, look, we could do nuclear energy and it would be clean and all of that.

Like, no more, this is gonna release radiation. And I'm like, okay, you don't want to listen to the solution. So I'm out. And I think this is why sometimes I, you know, when I'm in the Metropolitan Group, I feel like I can discuss more interesting stuff.

You know, I can discuss, okay, you will say it's an object, but like, we discuss about, you know, Bitcoin mining, we discuss about what's the best way to prepare meat, what's the best way to have tomatoes.

It's much more interesting than object, like possession or cars and stuff like this. Hmm. But maybe that is just, it's interesting to us because that's the way we think. And, you know, we're trying to be prepared for things and we're not interested in a lot of the other stuff.

But, you know, will that ever be what normal people think about? Is it, is it because they're being bombarded with appetizing and they're being cowherded into a certain way of thinking? Or is it just that some people are different?

And that's not necessarily the worst thing. Like, because we have things like the Meastadel, because we can have these sort of conversations, because you have other people who think the same.

Like, I'm quite happy, I'm quite happy having like my smaller groups of friends and internet friends and people that I can chat to about this kind of stuff. And then just not really bothering.

You know what I mean? Like, I'm just, you don't need everyone to think the same and I've kind of just come to the conclusion with like most, most conversations out in the real world. Like, I don't even fucking bother anymore.

Like, I used to like people, you know, they always, I don't know if they do the same way you are, but in the UK, it's always like, oh yeah, you know, I'm voting for this party or like, oh yeah, fuck the Tories and fuck this and don't learn.

Everyone has their like opinion, whichever side they're on and they get so annoyed. And I used to make a big point of being like, well, no, I don't vote because it's fucking retarded and here's why and like, have this like long thing.

- Yeah, yeah, don't say that at cocktail parties. - Yeah, I used to, I used to go hard. I'd be like, it's fucking retarded. It's the illusion of choice. Anyone who, anyone who does that as an idiot and here's why and blah, blah, blah.

And it's like, ahh, no one cares. And they just think you're a fucking loser. You're like, taxation is theft and blah, blah, they're like, can you just shut up and just try and have a glass of wine and like, talk about my new car.

And so, I don't even bother anymore. Just like, try and remove myself from those social interactions because it's boring, but I just, yeah, I just don't bother with it. - So, when people start discussing about celebrities, my go-to line is, I ask them, I tell them if they knew that Anna Montana and Miley Cyrus were the same person.

And then I proceed to explain that I learned this like, last week and then I start discussing about Anna Montana and I don't know, I think people get bored and they are surprised because it really comes from me and they're like, okay.

And, yeah, then it's like a good way. It's, you know, it's a fun way to realize the ridiculousness and then sometimes you get more better conversation but I had a friend who told me one day, you know, and he's a very good friend of mine and he said to me, you know, Herb and every time I have a discussion with you,

it's like we go in a dark forest, very philosophical, you know, it's like around the fire and not everybody is ready for that, you know? And it's also sometimes exhausting to discuss with you because, you know, I make people think about and I'm not giving the easy answer.

I'm not like, so, yeah. But try, Max, next time you are at the cocktail party, ask them if they know if Anna Montana and Miley Cyrus are the same person. You would be surprised of the answer.

And often I have people I didn't know about this. I was like, I've got that. So, when you level up as much as I have, you don't get invited to any parties anymore. That's what me doesn't even know you've won.

- Yeah, I don't know. Well, you know, at Bitcoin Amsterdam, we had like a giant barbecue with like, pig being roasted and like, you know, and it was nice to be in a social settings with at a cocktail party, quote unquote, and have a discussion about Cypherpunk, about that drop, about encryption,

about all of this with, yeah, so that's great. And I still think we should once meet at a pub or something. I will have a lot of free time I can explain to you when we stop, I can explain a few things, but yeah.

- Well, let's wrap it up, mate, because I, like I said, I've got to do all this printing and stuff and we can have a quick chat afterwards. But I will end it on this. I will say, first of all, anyone who hasn't already listened to our previous conversation and seen your game should really check it out because it's fucking cool.

And secondly, I really like this new project you're doing. I think it's cool. I think people should go and check that out. I'll put the link in the show note so that people can go and have a play because I think everyone should try mining.

Just even if you don't want to do it properly and it's not something you, you know, you'd rather stack stats another way, it's fine. But it's just a useful thing to understand, especially if you're interested in Bitcoin and this is a really good way, an accessible way for people to do that.

And yeah, I think everything that you said has made a lot of sense, like thinking in the physical world is important and it's good to see you doing that. So as always, mate, it's good chatting to you.

We've left it way too long and I hope that next time it can be in person, that would be really nice. - Yeah, yeah. I just want to add a quick thing. I will be at the Lugiano Plambi Conference.

In Switzerland, if any of you pleb are joining, just write me on Twitter, Telegram or Noster. And I will be pleased to see you in person and we can have a, I'm sure very cool discussion. I will be there, I will see, I had issue with my laptop, but I might borrow one.

So that if you want to see the game and if you want to play and if you want to ask questions, you can. And I didn't stop development of the game. I just posted it for a bit because I needed some time for myself.

And yeah, I also released Shuriken Pie, which is a fully open source project. So I think it balances out a bit. And yeah, another thing with Shuriken Pie, think outside of the box. If you need to, for instance,

you know, you need a small micro green for your seed and you need regular heat. Maybe you could use a Raspberry Pi for heating. You know, you don't need a lot of watts anyway. If you're doing like a very small scale, you could also have it completely autonomous with a small solar panel.

And that could be a great way to learn how to set up a remote mining operation. And you know, to power a Raspberry Pi, you don't need a lot of batteries and it's quite cheap with a solar panel.

So, yeah, think around and hack the word. I like it. All right, mate, well, I'll put all your links and so people can contact you for that conference. And yeah, thanks for coming on, mate.

Thanks for everything that you're doing. And yeah, we'll catch up for it there in the real world soon. Right.