History Doesn’t Repeat Itself, but It Often Rhymes. @BitcoinLabrador

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

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Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Alright, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space, and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back. Today's episode is with Bitcoin Labrador. We touched on some subjects that you just really shouldn't. And I'm sure the blue checks will come after us, but fuck it. This is Bitcoin.

We talk about what we want. So we've looked back at history. We've tried to consider whether history might repeat itself. And we've tried to avoid the horrors that we've seen in the past.

If that annoys people, quite harder. As the clowns in Clown World are really ramping things up at an incredible and quite frightening pace, we thought this was a good topic to touch on. We talked about Nazi Germany, and we talked about what was the alternative.

I want to make clear that, obviously, you've got to be a complete lunatic to disagree with the fact that Nazis were evil, awful, terrible. Fucks. And the things that happened there were disgraceful.

And the thought of anything similar happening again scares the shit out of me. And that's why we're looking at things and trying to find a way that we can avoid these horrors happening again.

Bitcoin Labrador wanted to be very clear on the fact that he is not a historical expert and that this is just something that he's been considering after speaking to his grandfather. And I think what's really important is that we should never have a subject that can't be talked about.

I've been running this show for a couple of years now, and it literally started with me being lonely 'cause I didn't have anyone to talk to about Bitcoin and everything that was going on in the world.

It was a very weird place for me, not having anyone to speak to. And to be honest, I thought I was going crazy. I thought, you know, maybe I'm just paranoid, maybe I'm a lunatic. But what I found is meeting Bitcoiners and getting to know this incredible group of people.

I found a group of people who are not prepared to shut up. They are not prepared to sit down and they will never take the knee. And I'm very, very proud to call many of you, my friends now.

Running this podcast has been the best thing I've ever done. It's been a real hard slog. It's been an enormous amount of hours. I've given up all my other work pretty much outside of 21ism.

But I'm very happy to say over the last six months or so, I've really seen enough ticking numbers. I've got more and more people reaching out. I've got more and more people listening. And I'm starting to get approached by more companies for sponsorship.

I've been very selective about who I want to work with. I have actually ignored most of the people who have reached out to me. And I've been specifically targeting and asking companies that I have respect for.

And I think are a net good for my listeners and for Bitcoin. So, hardware, foundation devices. I've already let you know, that's my dog snoring in the background. Snaotoshi, that's not what we want here.

Foundation devices. I'm working with them because they are fully open source. They have a beautiful product design. They've got an incredible team and they're really looking into the future and trying to push this space forward.

The foundation passport is now the hardware wallet that I suggest to all my friends and family, mainly in a selfish way because it's just so easy to set up. I don't have to mess around and take hours and hours and have them texting me and calling me with all different problems and questions.

Everyone who set one of these up has pretty much done it in half an hour. It's my go-to hardware wallet now. I absolutely love using it. And if you haven't already listened to my podcast with Zach, the CEO, it's four or five episodes ago now.

I suggest you go back and have a listen and then go to foundation devices.com. If you decide to buy one of these devices, you can use the code bit by bit and you will get $10 off your purchase.

I'm very happy to announce that going forward, I will be working with Casa. Casa make it disgustingly easy to set up multi-six security. I've recommended this to many friends in the past six months and I've been using it myself for just over a year.

I use it for a proportion of my stack and I've been really happy with it. I've done two episodes specifically where we talk about how to use this as privately as possible because I think that's very important to consider.

I've just recorded with Jameson a couple of days ago and that'll be going live in about a week. And if you haven't already listened to them, go back and listen to my episodes with Nick where we go a little deeper into this topic.

But yeah, I'm absolutely over the moon to be working with these guys. I've been hounding them for some time and I don't know what's happened. The stars have aligned, something's happened and suddenly a few companies now want to work with this podcast and I'm very, very happy.

I really love what these guys are doing. If you are thinking about upgrading your security, you haven't yet checked Casa route. I suggest you go to keys.casa. You can upgrade your security to multi-sig for as little as $10 a month.

Obviously that's what I've gone for 'cause I'm a type bastard and I've been very, very happy. If anyone listening wants to reach out and ask me any questions about my experience or if they wanna reach out to Casa, please do.

And I'd be very happy to answer any questions. And finally, before we dive into this controversial episode, I'd like to say thank you to FastBitcoins who are my new sponsors for the show operating in the UK, Australia and in Canada.

They make it very, very easy to buy Bitcoin. You can buy in cash at 20,000 different retailers. You can buy online and they do things very differently. I had Danny Brewster on the show. Must've been close to a year ago now and I will be getting him back on again.

He is the CEO of FastBitcoins. And I also have a couple of friends who work there who are just fucking awesome Bitcoiners. These guys are definitely taking a different approach and they are expanding fast.

Everybody who listens to this show obviously knows that I keep pushing you and saying, if you can buy an OKYC, go and do it. But if you're not going to, you really need to make sure that you're using a company that can be trusted and are doing things properly.

I have a lot of faith in these guys and I've been approached by a few different options. These are the ones that I've decided to go for because I think going forward, they really are gonna do great things.

I'm gonna update you with some of the amazing features that they've got. I'm gonna update you with some of the things that they're rolling out on the next ad read. But if anyone has any questions, please feel free to reach out and ask me.

If I can answer, I will. If I can't, then I will point you in the right direction and I will be getting Danny Brewster back on the show very, very soon. Thank you to my new sponsors. Thank you to Bitcoin Labradore and thank you to all of you for tuning in and staying with me on this epic journey.

I really appreciate it and I hope you enjoy the show. Bitcoin Labradore, nice to speak to you finally. - Anyway, you don't know what? - It's been a long time in the making. How are you doing?

And are you in front of a mic? 'Cause that just sounded like a freight train in my ear. - Oh, it did. Oh, put it down a bit then. Yeah. Ah, that's way better now. That was way better. Okay, perfect.

Well, welcome to the show and it's been nice getting to know you a little bit on Telegram, but it's always different like having a proper conversation. So I've been looking forward to getting to know you and also want to say thanks for sending that hardware out to me.

I've been having a play around with that and it's really cool. It's a really nice bit of kit. So yeah, welcome and what's your story? Like how long have you been lurking around in the Bitcoin space and I take it you're some type of dev or doing something technical, but I'm not too sure what it is you do.

So maybe you can fill me in a little bit. - Yeah, sure thing. So I'm not a dev, I'm a UX designer. So not too much on the technical side, more on the user experience side. So I've been working with Bitbox over the last few months, just doing some research for them and yeah, seeing what the users think about the product

and see how it can be improved. So hopefully you'll start seeing that trickle into the app over the coming few months as to how I came into Bitcoin. Yeah, I listened to a podcast. I've always been into like computer hardware, that sort of stuff.

And one of the podcasts in that scene had a episode with stuff on the Vera on it and well, it kind of instantly clicked and that was in the March of last year timeframe. So it also seemed a pretty good time to get in and I've been stumbling down the rabbit hole ever since.

(laughs) - And do you remember what it was listening to Stefan that made it click for you or like made you interested at the time? Was there something specific that sort of enticed you? - Yeah, I think it was, I don't exactly know what it was but I've always been kind of concerned with privacy stuff.

And I've always felt like there wasn't much we could do against like these big corporations and all that sort of stuff. So I always voted on parties that had at least something about privacy in their like promise notes that they send out before elections.

But yeah, I didn't really hold any hope about that improving things. And then he probably during that podcast he said something about privacy and Bitcoin's immutability and the fact that nobody can like fuck with it.

And that sort of made something click in my mind. So I started listening to his podcast and pretty shortly after we had an episode with Plan B and Plan B was like, yeah, this is the stock to flow model and it's going to 50k.

And this was in the period where it was like, I don't know, $7,000. So it was like, holy shit, I gotta get in on this. And yeah, well, number go up does its thing and you start hanging out in Bitcoin Twitter.

And yeah. - And go deeper and deeper down that rabbit hole. - Yeah. - It's interesting that you were already thinking about privacy and then you had concerns about that 'cause that's pretty rare.

Obviously a lot of Bitcoin is thinking about it but outside of that is pretty rare to find people who are concerned. Was that something to do with how you grew up or an experience you had or something you read or is there a reason that you were concerned about it?

- That's a pretty good question. I think it was like, yeah, as I said in the beginning I've always been interested in computer hardware and stuff and we start following that sort of YouTube channels that talk about computers and coding and hardware and that sort of stuff.

Then you're automatically a bit more in the scene of people that care about privacy. I did follow like a few people that are talking about Linux and open source stuff. So yeah, I think those sorts of people kind of open my eyes to it.

And yeah, exactly as you said, it's very rare to have in general to talk with someone that's actually concerned about privacy. So that really contributed to my concern about it because I thought it was a big deal like Google and Facebook snooping about and knowing everything about you and like reading some sci-fi stuff

where an AI controls everything and seeing things actually move in that direction where there's algorithms and whatever else controlling pretty much everything we do and then seeing nobody caring about it one bit.

Yeah, when you get that little ray of hope from some Australian guy talking about Bitcoin and talking about something that nobody can really influence and that gives hope for privacy and a better future than well, that's a stroyo grasp, I think.

Hmm, yeah, you were primed ready for it, which really is rare. And you're talking about the way that these algorithms control things. They actually control people as well. It's pretty scary.

People's patterns of behavior start to change. Their time preference starts to change. Even their characters can start to change just from social media and their interactions with some of this stuff.

And so that's what's so refreshing when you come across and you start speaking to Bitcoiners and it's such a counterculture. It's so different. It's like flipping everything on its head. It's very, very refreshing.

Do you feel a little bit more now like you found your people? Oh, yeah, 100%. Like, I've always been the guy in a group that whenever anybody does something, I'll do the opposite. Not for any specific reason, but that's just always how it plays out.

And then finding a group of people that are also, yeah, just kind of rallying against anything. The mainstream says it's very refreshing because, yeah, I think for anybody, most people around them are normies.

They give it a bit of a derogatory term. But yeah, it's really refreshing to have a space in your life where you can just talk about anything and not be looked at weird because everybody in this space has opinions and has a look on life that's very different and everybody knows what it's like

to not fit into the group, whether that's socially or in terms of your opinions. It's so nice. I mean, personally, it's been a complete lifesaver for me having that and having that group of people that you can speak to because it gets very lonely.

Otherwise, like in normy world, I don't care so much about the fact, oh, you know, maybe you can't talk about Bitcoin, but you get used to that because no one wants to talk about it. But it's everything else.

It's everything that goes along with it and just having people that you can talk to about anything. And as a general rule as well, even if people don't agree with you, they're not gonna attack.

And when you do have a conversation, it's or like try and like argue a point. It's generally that you can actually have a reasonable conversation, whereas over the past sort of three, four years, I found it more and more difficult to talk to people outside of Bitcoin because you can make predictions

and say, look, I'm concerned about X, Y and Z. My fear is that this is gonna happen because of this. I'm just warning you or, you know, try and make you aware and you get laughed at and you get ridiculed.

And then when that thing you've warned of starts to happen, no one ever really still pays notice to it. It's just like a continual frustrating interaction. It's quite tiring. And so that's why when I have conversations with Bitcoin, as I normally walk away with a bit more of a spring in my step and a bit more excited about the future

because I'm like, oh, there are people here who do have their eyes open and there are people who are trying to make changes. And that's a nice feeling. - Yeah, exactly as you said, it's a total lifesaver.

I mean, Bitcoin has opened up my eyes to many more like negative things in the world where you see so much more of the bullshit going on. But at the same time, it's an antidote for all of those things it opens your eyes to.

I think I've tweeted this pretty recently where I'm not sure if I, how I would deal with the last like one and a half years if I hadn't found Bitcoin because it gives so much hope for the future.

And especially Bitcoin is in the way they are just, yeah, building and not giving a fuck about anything that goes on around them. Give so much hope. And yeah, I don't know how I would have dealt with everything that's going on right now if I hadn't had this view on this group of people that's scattered all around the world

and trying to make the world a better place and actually having an effect. - What's your view of it going forward? Do you think that we're gonna have almost like a fork in society where you have Bitcoiners go one way and the rest go the other?

Or do you think that there's a chance that people start to wake up, see what's cooking and start to change their behavior and their views on things? - That's a very good question. - That's the second good question I've done on this show.

That's good news. - You're doing a great job so far now. - Thank you. I'll pat myself on the back. - Yeah, yeah. Geez, yeah, I think that there's kind of a, like, mass psychosis going on right now.

- Great description. - I can't remember his name, but there's this Belgian psychologist who describes this as mass formation and this is like everybody's in on whatever's going on and that's because there's so much free floating anxiety and lack of social cohesion going on a society in general.

And then something comes along where people can project their anxiety on something, in this case, like the coronavirus, and they finally have something to project where the anxiety is coming from and they'll all latch onto that and there is no way that you can, like, reason with anyone who's in that state of mind

because they kind of want to be afraid of something tangible. If you take that away, it becomes intangible again and that's, like, psychologically very hard to deal with. And I think that's a pretty reasonable explanation of what's going on here, like all the people in government and in healthcare and all that sort of stuff.

I don't think they are, like, evil people, but they're, like, also part of this mass psychosis and there's gonna need to be something. There's always gonna be something that's gonna break people out of it.

But I don't think there's gonna be, like, a mass awakening that everybody just suddenly, whatever happens, they wake up one day and everybody says, okay, well, this has kind of been silly and what the hell have we been doing?

This wasn't right. Let's just start over and, yeah, not do this again. No, that's not how it's gonna be, I think. It's just gonna be something else happens that radically changes the world and everybody, just like you said, whenever you predict something and it comes true later, they'll just have forgotten about it.

I think that's the same thing here. Something else is gonna happen that's gonna distract people completely from this whole coronavirus thing. And maybe that's something that lets us get back to how things were or not, I don't know.

But I think people are just gonna forget and ignore and, yeah, not really talk about whatever happened in the last one and a half years. I don't think it's gonna be some sort of great awakening.

I think it's gonna end at some point, but not with people suddenly realizing how stupid we all are. (laughing) - Yeah, I agree. If anything, it feels like it will just be brushed onto the carpet and be forgotten about and we'll move on.

I mean, that's the best case scenario, it seems. But what do you think it is like at the heart of it then, if there's this mass psychosis and it's like a projection because people have these insecurities and anxieties and it seems, obviously, that's global, what do you think is that humans are sensing that is making them so anxious?

Do you think it's literally because the money's fucked and therefore people are working hard to have less time? And on top of that, in their guts, without maybe realizing it, noticing the way that humans are generally behaving is not right, that society has some form of sickness or something like that

or do you have any thoughts on where this anxieties really coming from? - Yeah, that's what I was thinking about when I was listening to this podcast of the Belgian psychologist where he describes this.

I mean, it might be some sort of confirmation bias on my end, but I think he's just describing inflation. Everything's just slowly, slowly getting more expensive and nobody's really noticing.

And well, people are noticing because you have a CPI, but like the government says, it's okay, but slowly everything's getting more expensive and where you could buy a house at 30 and have a family and not have a huge mortgage and slave away the rest of your life to pay off debts, I don't know, like 50 years ago or more.

Right now it's impossible and everybody sees it, but thinks it's normal because it's been so slow and because it's been so slow, it's not tangible. People don't talk about it, people don't notice that it's happening on the long time sale and if houses became twice as expensive over the course of like half a year, people who'd have noticed

and people would have done something about it. But now it's like 5% every year and obviously it's accelerating now. But yeah, I think that's exactly what the free-floating anxiety that this guy describes.

I'll make sure to send you a link after the podcast through his stuff. But I think he's just talking about inflation. - Does he know that he's talking about inflation? - No, I don't think so.

- Okay. - He never talks, actually talks about inflation, but the way he describes this free-floating anxiety and the way he talks about certain things, the puzzle piece fits exactly under that shape like inflation.

Yeah, I think it just fits perfectly. - Yeah, it definitely seems to and there's the second order effects that sit after that. Like for example, you mentioned, you know, you have a young couple in their sort of late 20s, early 30s and they want to buy a property.

So in comparison to my parents and me, it is five times, between five and seven times easier for them to have bought a property and live their lives than it is for me. And it's getting harder over time because of inflation and all of these issues that it causes.

And because people are putting their money into the hard assets and also because they can't save, you used to get like eight or 9% if you put your money in a savings account and now you get less than nothing.

People don't see that necessarily, you know, you get a few rumblings, especially here in the UK where younger people are saying, "Oh, well, I can't buy a property, it's really difficult."

Or if they can, it's because they put 5% down and the other 95% is mortgage. And that's with some sort of special government payback deal. And it's like, well, you kind of have an asset there, but really what you have is debt.

And if there's a massive issue with the housing market, which they're naturally fucking should be, then you're in big trouble. On top of that, you have people working longer hours, you have people with the pressures of social media where they have this warped idea of what is natural, what is normal.

And they're looking up to people who are high-flying, have the money, have the lifestyle, and they're constantly being bombarded with this sort of ideal that they have in their head that they're so far away from.

And then the only way that they can get a little break from it is to go and spend money on some stupid shit that makes them feel good momentarily, but in the long run actually, just actually pushes them further away.

And then you have like women who might want to have children who are working longer and harder. They're having them later or not having them at all. And you have all these different things, which when you layer them all on top, yes, they all start probably because the money's fucked, but it just shit all the way down.

And you just have a load of people who are meded up, lack of sleep, feeling stressed, and exactly like you said, you then throw in this coronavirus thing and you have every media outlet banging on about how dangerous it is, and they've just latched on and think, well, let's virtue signal about this and let's be scared.

And it's sad, but I think you're almost certainly right. - Yeah, it's obviously many, many different causes, but definitely not all of them can be traced back to inflation, I don't think.

I mean, the internet, as you said, it's so much easier to compare yourself with other people that are much, much richer than you are, that you wouldn't even have met or like you would have seen drive by in a car like once in your life 70 years ago, or you might have seen the director of your factory

that you're working, but right now, as you said, it's so much easier to compare yourself to everyone around the world and see everyone who's above you in terms of wealth or social standing or whatever, but that's not what humans are made for.

Humans are made for living in a small group and comparing yourself to the people in your immediate surroundings. So I think that's also definitely a very big contributor to this anxiety that people feel about, yeah, not being enough, having enough.

Yeah. - And that's maybe then why we're seeing this push towards the socialist tendencies, people believing that is gonna solve the issues because they kind of feel like it's almost like they know they're getting fucked somehow, but they can't quite work it out and then they get confused about how to fix it

and you have a few slick talking people who sell this idea, which is obviously wrong, but to them, they're like, oh, well, it's different to what we have now and what we have now is obviously not working.

And so this must be the way out. I wonder whether maybe we can link this into, we've got maybe a bit of a controversial topic that you mentioned to me on Telegram that I'd be really keen to dive into.

How do we link these two together? - Yeah, well, I think if you go back to the mass psychosis, there's obviously a very big mass psychosis in our history. I think that everybody knows that's the Second World War where there were huge troubles in Germany, kind of like we have now.

And if you make that comparison, people will go absolutely mental because you're not allowed to make that comparison unless you're talking about Donald Trump or some other right wing politician.

But yeah, I think we're kind of in the same scenario as we were in Second World War or just before it where there's a lot of things just going very, very bad. And there's a lot of, again, free flooding anxiety about all kinds of stuff.

And in Germany, they had massive inflation and all kinds of stuff going on. Then somebody comes along with a promise of solving it. And I think that's a very useful, not useful, very logical thing to grasp onto being socialism or like at least some form of, hey, it's not fair that these people have a lot and you can't even buy your bread.

I think that's also a very logical thing to think. I mean, it is absolutely insane that some people can't eat on a daily basis and other people have 25 Ferraris. I mean, yeah, that is weird.

That's how the world works. And then I think, I mean, I used to be a very socialist myself. I think it's a very logical way of thinking, especially when you're used to having a government and a government telling you that they're there to solve problems, that you take away money from the people who have too much

and give it to the people who don't have enough. It's a logical thing. But yeah, getting back to that topic of the Second World War, there was a very similar scenario, as I said, to right now and people flock to Adolf Hitler and a lot of bad stuff happened.

But the thing that I wanted to talk about was that one of those things that Bitcoin does is it makes you doubt all the narratives that you have been fed over the years because well, you start seeing inflation is not actually good.

It's actually stealing from you. And from there on out, Bitcoin has this funny way of showing you other doors where there's a narrative and showing you that it's false. And recently, I've been talking to a few people who have been diving into the topic of the Nazis and how that whole thing happened.

And obviously, it's all very bad what happened, yada, yada, yada. And I'm not gonna make any excuses for that here. But I think it's a lot more nuanced what happened back in the Second World War than what most people think.

In high school, there is a lot of attention being put on what happened. Well, I'm from the Netherlands. So from the perspective of the people of the Netherlands where it was like, okay, the Nazis came in.

There was like a few days of fighting. They bombarded everything and they rolled in. And then we had five years of sheer terror and no food and everybody was unhappy. And then our glorious allies came in and saved us.

But I've been talking to a few people who have been digging into this and watched a few videos of people from the Netherlands who actually fought for the Nazis. And they tell a very different story about actually during the war, a lot of people signing up to fight for the Nazis because they fought against communism.

And a lot of people saw communism as a much greater threat than whatever the Nazis were doing. And yeah, kind of accepting the fact that you had a totalitarian regime in the Nazis as well.

But, well, that was necessary because the communist and the East were also knocking on your door. And people back then actually knew, had news and got word of what the communists were doing and how much starvation there was and all that sort of stuff.

- Can you just brush me up on my history? 'Cause it's been a long time since I went to school and when I was at school I was looking out the window not paying attention, thinking of other more important things.

- So the people who were in Germany and in the Netherlands and were experiencing inflation or hyperinflation, what was the situation? Like you said it's similar to what it's like now. Where's the similarity?

Was it that their currency was being devalued and there was hard times? And if so, what was the cause of the hard times? Is there something that we can sort of pinpoint? - Yeah, I think obviously the inflation narrative is pretty similar.

So that's an obvious point. But I think the more interesting part is where, what I just talked about in this mass formation, mass psychosis kind of thing. Where people are kind of not themselves and willing to accept a lot of things that they normally wouldn't because they're in a group and they feel part of a group.

And back then it was the Nazis and the Nazi party and right now it's where you mask, take your jab. And those are very similar movements. And I'm not gonna say in any way, shape or form that people who are taking their vaccine and listening to the government are trying to gas us or are going to genocide anyone who doesn't have their jab

although that might actually happen. I don't know, can predict the future. I don't think anyone in Germany in 1940 would say, okay, we're gonna be guessing a few hundred thousand Jews at the end of this.

But yeah, I think there's mainly similarities in how people act and this group formation where people feel part of a group and are willing to accept a lot of things that if you would've told them a year ago, they would've got you crazy.

- That's a very good point. There was an experiment, I can't what it's called where like they'd have prisoners linked up to an electrocution and have people crank it up. I can't what the thing was called now.

Again, I have to link it in the show notes but there was this experiment basically where they would be told by guards, you're part of this experiment, you have to administer this electric shock and even if someone's foaming at the mouth or even if they're screaming with pain, you just have to crank it up.

And because the authorities telling them to do it, the vast majority of people would just continue because it's what everyone else is doing and what they're told. It's definitely how it seems with this because exactly like you said, people who I know from say two years ago, if I'd have said to them,

do you think that humans should have sovereignty over their own bodies and choose what comes in and out of their bodies? I would say 99% of the people would say, yeah, of course, absolutely.

You wanna put something in someone's body that they don't want, that's rape. You wanna take something out, that's theft. Like obviously they can do that and obviously they should have freedom of speech.

Now in the UK, I would say 50% would say, no, that should be the choice of the experts and the scientists and that forced vaccinations are completely reasonable and that it's completely reasonable that people lose their jobs and their livelihood if they don't go along with it.

That's not a long time to go from nearly 100% to half of them going to something that they would totally disagree with two years ago. And then if you extrapolate that out, how long until it's the vast majority?

It's very, very weird to see. - Yeah, I do think, what you're talking about is the Stanford Prison Experiment of I'm taking. - That's it. - I do think those are very different phenomena. I mean, in the Stanford Prison Experiment, it's people going along with it because the authority tells them they have to do something directly.

And I think this is more of a, like you're in a group and you're willing to accept whatever the group, whatever the group's narrative is. I think those are slightly different, but like-- - That's true, yeah. - In outcome, it's obviously the same.

You're gonna do things that you in isolation would not do. But yeah, I don't think it's because an authority is telling them to. I mean, you could've gone back a year ago and had the authority, the government tell you, "Okay, right now, everybody has to take the job "and have this QR code "and you're not allowed to go into restaurants."

And a year ago, they could've said the exact same thing as they are saying right now. I don't think people would've gone with it, but like there's been this group think slowly building up.

Where people right now are willing to accept it. But do you think that that's because the authorities told them strongly that they advise it and then very quickly after that, they have to?

And that once somebody has made the decision to do it, they then are gonna go along. It's very difficult once somebody's already had the job to then change their mind. And so as the percentage of the population increases that have had it, then they are gonna be much less likely to have some independent thinking.

And then what that means is that that group think is much, much easier and much more likely. - Yeah, so I think what, exactly as you're saying, I think there's many different psychological phenomena going on right now in society where as you said, it's consistency.

That's a very powerful push ways here. So if you've done something or like admitted to something or gone along with something, it's much easier to convince you to take the next step than it is to go from not doing it to doing it.

So convincing someone to take the first job is gonna be hard, but if they're taking the first job, it's gonna be not so hard to take the 17th job because you've already admitted to something and it's psychologically very painful to not be consistent with yourself.

So yeah, it's multiple things, it's authority, it's consistency. And it's this group think where slowly it has built up and it's not socially acceptable. There's social pressure to go along with the narrative that people are telling you to go with.

- Yeah, it's all very worrying. How do you think this started then with Nazi Germany? You said that they were thinking this was almost like the best option of two evils almost. Where did that sort of come from?

Was that a very small proportion of people or like how do you think that started? Like how was this sales pitch in effect put across to people where they were like, oh yeah, that's a good idea to join the Nazi party.

Like obviously it sounds so fucking mental to us today, but you know, stepping back in time and putting ourselves in their shoes. Like why do you think that started happening? - Yeah, so on this side of the story, the Nazis are kind of the good guys where the bad guys are the communists.

So like it's not easy to make a direct comparison because at the start of it all and even wait before World War II, the Nazi party was just kind of a pretty extreme but still reasonable political party.

And when the communists started gaining more ground, they became ever more extreme. And that's the same thing here where yeah, at the start of it, it was all pretty reasonable. I mean, I don't agree with lockdowns but at the start of it, like two weeks to flatten the curve and maybe you should wear a mask.

We don't really know we're not sure how that works. That's all pretty reasonable but it slowly evolved into something we'll hopefully look back on as completely abhorrent. But yeah, exactly as it is now and back then people saw something worth fighting for, fighting against, which I still agree with.

I mean, I think communism is a way worse ideology than Nazism but somehow we have been taught that Nazism is unacceptable, which in large part is and communism is a reasonable ideology to follow.

And that's kind of the main part that I maybe wanted to discuss here where there was a very good reason for people to follow Nazi party because there was this threat of communism. And if somebody tells you, hey, there's gonna be people coming here that are trying to turn your country communist.

And there is this other party that's fighting against that. And all the other parties that you can vote on are just kind of okay with it and you see this happening. Then what are you gonna do?

You're gonna pick up arms and fight and you're not gonna look at what the long-term consequences are. I think a lot of Bitcoiners would yeah, kind of do the same thing where if there was this, if there was a political party that said, okay, we're gonna fight lockdowns or we're gonna fight vaccine mandates

and we're gonna fight for our freedom. But that would degenerate over the next five years into something horrible. I think that's kind of the same thing. - As that party gains more power and more control than they turn up that dial of crazy and they've already suckered people in as is kind of the way, yeah?

- Yeah, but maybe not even like consciously, but just something that happens and that things spiral out of control even for the party themselves. Like, I don't think the Nazi party went into the Second World War to cast Jews.

I don't think that's like something people actually saw coming at the beginning of the Second World War, but something that definitely slowly started happening because they needed a scapegoat to blame the bad things that happened.

During the war and before it. And as soon as the war didn't solve that, they had to start looking for something else. - It's such a weird part of history and it's such like a taboo subject to even be like questioning, even to the extent we are, which is like, obviously it was horrific and wrong and crazy beyond belief.

But you can't sort of sit and have a conversation like we are without being attacked, which is to question like the motives and how it came about, which is why I was interested in talking to you about it and drawing parallels to today.

Because the same thing, like I've said to family six months ago, I was like, you fucking watch what's happening with this COVID stuff. This is Nazi shit. Don't be surprised if we start getting arrested, we start getting forced to have these.

We're not allowed to leave the country. Do not be surprised. - They're sort of conspiracy theorists. (laughing) - Exactly that. And it's absolute crazy Nazi shit coming. And then it's like you, Nutter.

How dare you say that this is like Nazis? How dare you, your grandfather fought in the war? How dare you? And I'm like, I'm not saying, I don't respect someone fighting in the war. I'm just saying, don't be surprised if history repeats itself.

You look back in the history books, there's a lot of blood, a lot of violence, a lot of terrible shit that's happened almost forever. Why people suddenly think that can't happen again is beyond me.

Everything points towards the fact that this sort of thing will happen again. But it's almost like people just don't want to even consider it because it's so terrible. And maybe that's why it's like, oh, well, I'll bury my head in the sand then and just scream and cry because you've mentioned it.

- Yeah, but it's recently biased. Like everybody thinks that the way it's been for the last 10 years is the way it's gonna be forever. And that's not just because people are dumb, but like everybody thinks that way on some level.

And yeah, we have been conditioned to somehow it's not, I think it's because it's accurate that people are outraged about it. Because like if you remember a few years ago, people were constantly comparing Donald Trump to Hitler.

Nobody was outraged about it. Nobody said, oh, you can't do that. That's hyperbolic and extreme and you're crazy. Nobody said that. That was just like a comparison you could make. But I think that is like again, from a psychological perspective, I think that that comparison was okay to make because it's not accurate.

And right now it is accurate. And you're confronting people with, well, very scary truth where you're kind of making them question their whole worldview. And most people aren't ready for that.

Most people will literally go crazy if their entire worldview is just kicked out from under them. And so there's only two options for most people. And either that's telling you you're crazy because you're making that comparison on how dare you or themselves losing their entire worldview.

And you again, come back to psychological pain. That's very painful to do. And people don't want to do that. So they'd rather choose the you're crazy and how dare you wrote of action. - Well, I mean, I really hope that I am crazy and that everyone who's thinking this way is crazy and that we're completely wrong and that next week

this is all dropped and it doesn't continue to go the way that it's going. Nothing would make me happier. - Exactly. I've never been more wanting to be wrong about something but I'm afraid I'm not, I'm wearing up.

- I'm afraid you're not either. And the reason, the reason is it's a little bit like Bitcoin. It's like, you know, you get in in the early days. I don't know if you ever used to have this, but I used to, I mean, I went all in just like absolutely fucking all in.

And I used to sometimes just wake up in the middle of the night, like almost in sweats. Like, oh my God, what am I doing? Everyone, no one believes what I believe. Am I crazy? Is this a cult?

Have I been had over, and you have these sort of worries? And then over time, as your predictions start to come true, as the price tends to go your way, as you see the developments happening and after you've seen a few cycles of the FUD just constantly coming and then constantly being busted,

your confidence grows to a point where you're like, I don't even really need to look at the price anymore. Like, I don't really care. I don't get, I don't get concerned or emotional when somebody throws FUD at me.

I just kind of feel sorry for them. And it's kind of the same with this because since whatever it was February, March, last year, all of Bitcoin, Twitter and all the people that I communicate with, we've been throwing out these predictions that seem mental and then they come true.

And then you throw out another prediction and that comes true. And you throw out another one and that comes true. And you're like, well, if this is my track record of being right and everyone thinks that it's crazy and I'm completely the outsider, what's the likelihood that it continues?

And then you compare it to history and you think, well, this does align very much with what's happened in the past and the incentives of people who are under extreme stress and pressure is gonna be to latch on to something.

They feel like they're drowning. They latch on to something to stop themselves drowning and then they realize that that thing they latch on to as a fucking serpent. But you don't know that at the time.

And so it does seem to me that this is the way we're going and that Bitcoin's not enough to fight it. Like it's not enough. We need more, like we need to be able to somehow stop this because we know how it ends.

- Yeah. I think like Bitcoin isn't enough. It's a very big weapon, but it depends on how you look at it. I think if you think about like the future and humanity in general, I think Bitcoin will be enough in the end.

But there's so much pain and suffering that governments can still inflict on individual people, individual Bitcoiners. They cannot stop the Bitcoin network, but they can still throw me in jail and they can still put you in a gulag and make life miserable.

And I think it's also dangerous to be right about everything because you get cocky. And I think we are right about, nothing's gonna stop Bitcoin, but we do need to think more about, okay, but I'm still a human.

I'm still physical. I am not decentralized and distributed all around the world. So what's gonna happen with me? And how am I gonna make sure me and my family are gonna be all right? And how am I gonna make sure that other Bitcoiners are gonna be all right?

'Cause this is not just about the network. It's also about the people. And that sometimes concerns me about this kind of premature certainty of victory of certain Bitcoiners. We have already won, but even though we've won, we might still lose a lot of battles.

- Yeah, I agree with you. That sort of, it's an ever-table idea. Yes, it is, but you're absolutely right. There can be a lot of bloodshed and a lot of pain. And that's kind of why I started the Mechdel monthly series with Chino and Solax was because I really like this adversarial thinking

and this idea of, right, how do we learn to grow produce? How do we learn to have communication networks that can't be fucked with? How do we help Klebs work together and help each other and use each other's skills and abilities?

How do we help with education so that you don't have the brainwashing of your children who turn into fucking drones? All of these things outside of Bitcoin are hugely important because it's no good just having a shitload of SATs in a hardware wallet somewhere and then you're shot in the head

or you can't feed your family or you're put in prison. What good is it to you then? And yes, eventually it's gonna take a lot of power from governments, but it'd be nice if we can defend ourselves now.

- Yeah, I think obviously things like taproot and lightning and being able to run your own note very easily and having good UX on the buying side and all that sort of stuff is great and very important.

But I think more thought experiments like the mesh today and what untapped growth is doing with raising cattle and showing the world that well, yes, you can actually do this without all this fiat influence.

I think those are the most important things because even without taproot and lightning, version one of Bitcoin is still compatible with the network and it'll still work even without all those nice upgrades.

So I think that in the Bitcoin culture, I think we need to have more eye on things like the mesh to those and all that sort of stuff just thinking about, okay, things are going to get nasty.

And yes, I can sit on my pile of Bitcoin and use it as someone with a huge pile of gold in why more Germany would have, where they can, instead of a wheelbarrow of cash, buy some bread for their family with a bar of gold.

But that's not a world I would like to live in. So I think it's much more productive to think about how are we going to traverse this in between periods of probably utter shit where everything in terms of supply lines and everything you need for life is going to be either expensive

or not available, no matter how much money you throw at it, no matter how much Bitcoin you throw at it, how are we going to get through this before the world becomes this glorious utopian place of hyper-Bitcoinization and everybody's happy?

I think something like that is going to happen. I can't say if it's going to be a utopia, maybe we're wrong about that. But I don't think we're wrong about the fact that it's going to be very nasty in the meantime.

And, yeah, again, those are the most important developments in Bitcoin right now. And I'm very glad we have people like Sol and Gino thinking about them and, yeah, getting people to wreck their brains on that instead of number go up for at least a part of the day.

(laughing) - Yeah, yeah, that would be nice. And so looking at what happened in Germany and the sort of options that there were, or people were faced with, it seems as though, since I wasn't aware, and this is just showing how ignorant I am, but I wasn't aware that there was the threat of communism coming to Germany.

I was never taught that, I was never told that. The way I always thought about it at least was everything was fine in Germany, everything was fine in the world, and then some complete fucking lunatic called Hitler just somehow controlled everyone and decided to just be just the worst person on the planet.

And that everyone just went along, not everyone went along with it, but that people went along with it to survive and terrible things happened, and then they were fought and they lost, and then everything went back to good again.

And it sounds like that was very wrong. - Yeah, but who can blame you for thinking that because, again, I used to be a socialist and I used to think exactly what you just described as well.

That's the story that you get in school. But there's an whole different story where, yes, the Nazis did gas a few hundred thousand Jews. I mean, there's also people debating that, but I won't go into that right now.

That's a much different conversation. But yes, they did kill a hundred thousand Jews or more, and during the war, they killed a whole bunch of soldiers, but that's a war, this does not really count.

But as an example, just in Ukraine, about five million people died of intentional starvation. That's more people than would have fit in the gas chambers for a hundred thousand years. Okay, not a hundred thousand, but for a very long time.

And you don't hear anything about that in school because we have had to deal with the Nazis and the fighting here was against the Nazis or there might be an intentional narrative put on that, but I'll just go with Alcom's razor and say, this is the most likely way, most likely reason that we're not told this part of the story.

But communism is a much worse thing for the world than Nazism ever was and we're just not told. And so who was it, who was trying to bring communism to Germany? How was that manifesting? How were these people who decided to join the Nazi party so sure that this was happening?

And then was the only realistic option at the time or seemed to be a realistic option at the time to join the Nazi party? Well, there was just since 1914, there was communism in Russia and Russia, the United Soviet States, were much bigger than Russia is right now.

So it was pretty much next door for a lot of people in Poland and Czechoslovakia and it was pretty much next door and people could see what was going on. And people knew what was happening.

So if I'm to believe the stories that my grandfather told me because his father did fight for the Nazi party, like at first the Nazis came in and they did occupy the Netherlands but they were like not held heroes, but generally it was positive and a lot of people signed up to fight against the Russians

because people had heard stories about how terrible it was over the last 35 years or 25 years in Russia. So at the beginning of the war, there weren't any atrocities yet. So, I mean, that's a pretty easy thing to go with if you have this party that yes, they did kind of invade your country but there wasn't a lot of bloodshed

and they're fighting against this thing where millions of people are starving and they're trying to bring that system over here. - Yeah, good point. - And then later the atrocities came and a lot of bad things happened but at first people weren't like at the start of the war.

They were positive about the Nazis generally and at the end of the war, everybody was acting as if they had always been against them and well, then we come back to what we said earlier. I think it's gonna be exactly the same that in, I don't know, maybe a year, maybe longer, maybe shorter, this is all gonna end

and everybody's gonna act as if they've always opposed lockdowns and it's logical that you should have partly sovereignty. - It's interesting to look at it that way. I hadn't considered it and it makes a lot of sense because you've kind of got two options there.

Do I go with this party who I don't really know what's gonna happen but I know the other option is starvation and mass suffering and I know how bad that is because I've seen it and it's on my doorstep and so I guess you're gonna take a chance in that situation rather than have guaranteed starvation because we all know how communism ends,

it's not fucking good. So I can understand people in that situation and it's not like Nazis came out and were like, "Right, we've got a few things we wanna do here. First of all, we wanna kill a few hundred thousand Jews.

Like, that'd be great. That's really what we wanna start with. I'm sure that's not how it was sold 'cause obviously everyone would be like, "You fucking lunatics, no." I guess it's that slow role.

The way that you explained it is like, you think that maybe it wasn't their intention from the beginning to do the things that they did. Do you think that that was like, it was maybe the intention in the background and it wasn't really shown and it was just a slow rollout or do you think that it was like,

it just got more and more corrupted from the inside and just more and more crazy from the inside over time? - Yeah, I can't really speak to that. I mean, as I said, my great grandfather was literally part of this and up until last week, we'd never talked about this, like in the family, my great grandfather is dead for a long time,

but nobody talked about this because it's not like the opinion you should have. You shouldn't say, well, actually at the beginning of the war, the Nazis weren't so bad. They came in and promised us a lot of good things and things were actually pretty okay.

If you just go walk into the street and say someone like, "Hey, did you know the Nazis weren't actually "all that bad in 1903?" (laughing) And I'm gonna respond all that positively. - No.

- I would imagine. - That's gonna be my new chat outline. (laughing) You can get a 100% guaranteed drink in the face, maybe bottled. - Yeah, what was your question again? - Was it rolled out slowly over time or do you think that it was always the plan and it was just a sort of frog boiling and water sort of idea?

Do you think it got corrupted from the inside and that that was not the original intention? - I mean, I don't know. I can't look into people's minds and there is, I think, pretty good. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that, like Adolf Hitler always had some resentment against Jews and that there was already some resentment against Jews

in the German society. But again, we come back to inflation and Jews pretty often having control of the banks. I don't think it was a huge leap of logic to just start blaming the Jews. They didn't randomly pick someone.

I think the Jewish people were kind of connected, maybe just tangentially, but a lot of the big banks were owned by Jews. So I think I guess that's where your, let's guess all the Jews story line came from at the later date.

But it was definitely something that was rolled out slowly. And again, they didn't have posters with joint Nazi party, let's guess some Jews. But yeah, I can say if it wasn't intentional or not, but it was definitely a slow roll.

- You're talking about the banks and inflation. And was that a narrative that was turned on the Jewish people? And did they create hatred within the German community because they were blaming the issues that people were having on the Jews and then therefore was like, right, here's the problem.

Here's the people you hate. 'Cause you see it now, it's like I'm the problem now 'cause I haven't had a vaccine. So people should hate me 'cause I've killed their grandma, right? Because I'm dirty and dangerous and I haven't complied and therefore fuck me because how dare I not wanna have this experimental jab.

And people genuinely do hate non-vaxxed people now. Like it's actually not an uncommon thing. It's completely fucking unreasonable, obviously, but it doesn't take much for that to be sort of like an accepted narrative.

Do you think that that was similar there where they created this hatred? - Yeah, I think there's a huge similarity there. I mean, as I just said, the problems of the German people were largely caused by inflation and a lot of banks were owned by Jews.

So there is some sort of relationship there. And just as it is right now, people get less sick if they take the vaccine. I didn't take the vaccine. So there is some sort of relationship there.

Is it a reasonable link to make? I don't think so. But I mean, if you go with the narrative that the vaccine helps stop the spread of this virus and this virus is Huber deadly and people are dying en masse because of it, then it's not such a leap of logic to make that unfaccinated people are evil or selfish

or whatever. So I think it's a very similar, there's so many similarities between right now and what happened just before the Second World War that it's scary. I mean, we all know what that ended up like.

I would not, I don't think we're actually going to have an armed conflict because the world is that much more globalized and much more reliant on other people. And there's so much more travel that you can't really say, oh, those other people that you've never seen before, they are evil.

But also the scapegoat is all around us. It's not some sort of different country or something. So, I mean, I think in a lot of specific details, there are many tremendous similarities. But in the big lines, I don't think it's going to look the same at all.

I don't think there's going to be trenches or any sort of big armed conflict. - I actually agree with you there. The world has changed a lot. One thing that I was interested in and it kind of ties in, I was sent, must have been about six months ago, maybe a bit longer, I was sent a video of a Jewish lady

who was talking about what had obviously happened in Nazi Germany, she was in her late 90s and she was talking about the merging of medical and military and how there was a similarity with what was going on now.

And this lady was basically screaming as loud as she could. Like, this reminds me of what happened. This is how it started. Have you got any thoughts on that? Like, are there any similarities in your mind of the way that that's playing out and how doctors and nurses are being used as part of a way to control the masses?

- Yeah, definitely. Again, there are so many similarities in the way that people are, I mean, people are people. And like in broad strokes, humans are not going to change. So the way you're going to influence them is not going to change.

We're susceptible to the same psychological tricks as our ancestors 100,000 years ago. So yeah, again, I don't think most doctors are part of this conspiracy, but they're just part of the mass psychosis and they're being manipulated by people who might or might not be themselves part of this mass psychosis

or they might have some more sinister agenda. I honestly don't know which one of the two it is. I can see good points for either way to put it, but yeah, there's definitely people in authority being manipulated to do things they wouldn't do just as regular people or being manipulated to do things they wouldn't do.

- Yeah, 'cause it's like it's easy enough to say to somebody, you know, like a doctor, for example, oh, well, if you don't agree with it, then just leave, just, you know, quit medical profession.

'Cause I know a fair few doctors here in the UK who are completely against all this shit. They're like literally outraged about it, but they haven't-- - They haven't states. - Sorry. - Yeah, that slaves, just as everybody else, they have more good.

- Exactly, exactly. And so they've got a new surround their neck and it's like, well, okay, I can step away, but I won't live long because, you know, I've got massive student debts because I've gone and studied to become a doctor.

Medicine is what I know, I have a mortgage, I have kids, I have debt. What the fuck am I gonna do? Yeah, okay, I can leave and what am I gonna do? I'm gonna go and do laboring and earn, you know, one 50th of what I was earning and have to sell my house and pour my kids out of school and can't feed them as well.

And, you know, it's easy to say, it's easy to say just like, oh, well, I would just step down. But, you know, in reality, it's not that simple. - No, we like, as Bitcoin is in general, I mean, close phone home, put it pretty nicely, it's fuck you money, I have fuck you money and I can leave the game, but most people don't have that.

They have savings that are inflating away at an ever-accelerating rate. And yeah, what are you gonna do? You're a debt slave. You have this new surrounding neck of a mortgage and if you quit, you don't have anything because, well, you can sell your house but you have to pay it off.

So most of the money that you're going to make of selling your house is going to be gone and it's going to have to go back to the bank. So you don't actually own anything. And if you don't own anything, you are dependent on your job and you cannot have an opinion that doesn't agree with the people that you have to do the job for.

- Yeah, you can't speak out and say what you think. You'll be fired very, very quickly. So what do you think is going to happen then with, obviously we're talking about mestadels and people working together and we're going to have to have some form of collaboration and for people who want to exit the system and not comply with it?

Do you think that there's going to be like a gray market or a black market for medical care? For example, here in the UK, whenever I've had issues that I've needed sorted, they basically just do not get sorted.

No one gets back to me. No one helps. But when it comes to trying to force a vaccine on me, I get like texts every week and calls and all that sort of stuff. And if I have issues that I want to get sorted, I don't even want to go to my doctor's surgery anymore 'cause I just know I'm going to have to have a confrontation

or they're going to try and force it on me and all this sort of stuff. And so I'm sure at some point it's going to get to the point where it's like, well, if you haven't had the vaccine, then we're not going to treat you because you're putting a stress on the NHS and there'll be a narrative formed around the fact that we're the problem

and that's why the NHS is crumbling and it can't survive. It's not the smokers, the drug addicts, the fat fucks who wave 50 stone. It's not any of them. It's the unvaccinated people. And so do you think then that's what's going to happen?

We're going to have to have a completely separate group of doctors who work for Bitcoiners or Unvaxed. - I mean, that's kind of a hopeful part of the story of the Second World War and Soviet Russia and communism.

I don't know the exact amount of years, but very, very quickly, the black market and Soviet Russia was a larger economy than the official economy. And people are going to find a way at some point people are going to notice that they're being screwed over and they might not be united enough to form a front and say enough is enough.

But like even your Staunchest Vax pass proponent will notice that things are bad if they're at their 17th jab and they're not allowed to go to the restaurant because well, the line for the jabs was too long and you haven't been able to get it.

So everybody is going to feel the consequences of this even if they're not wanting or capable of standing up. So yeah, I think this is going to resolve itself in some form with a black market for just about anything.

And Bitcoiners are the most ingenious people I've ever met. So we're just going to have some sort of parallel economy running, especially with the internet now able to facilitate. I mean, look at drugs, even the most illegal drugs are able to be bought at the click of a button.

- It definitely gives hope and rather a dark subject we've touched on there. So bringing it back to the light and bringing it back to hope, I agree with you, we have Bitcoin, which is a fucking incredible technology.

It leverages other technologies and other services. Like if I want to go and buy some drugs online, then I use Bitcoin to change into Monero to buy on a darknet market, which is done using the internet and then the postal service.

So it's all networks that are currently there and then we're leveraging them to get what we want. I suppose with lightning and privacy getting better on Bitcoin and people getting more comfortable with being a bit more self-sovereign and having their own money that they control does allow people to think outside the box

and to form these sort of trust networks and to help each other. So that is definitely something that gives me hope. I think if we were having this same conversation and we didn't have Bitcoin and we didn't have these sort of pleb networks, it would be a very, very different conversation.

And I'd probably, when we finished this call, (laughs) not being a good way. Whereas actually, I think we can be fairly confident that we will find a way. - Yeah, but like, I mean, as I said, it can be very, very bad for a lot of people, but even in the 1940s, there was a resistance in Russia

and people got the stuff that they wanted to get some way or another. So even without Bitcoin, I think in the end, humanity doesn't want order. Humanity doesn't want safety. Even in your perfect utopia, there's just gonna be a drive to have something happen.

People need adversity. That seems to be a pretty consistent psychological pattern that humans have. So yeah, even in your perfect utopia and dystopia where there's AI communism, it might last for a long time.

I mean, the Soviet Union lasted until like 1980 or something. I'm not sure. But that's 70 years, that's a long time. But in the end, such a system falls apart. And this time, thanks to AI, it might take 200 years, but I take hope in the fact that there's always gonna be people that are resisting.

There's always gonna be people that work in black markets and get you the stuff you need. And now that we have Bitcoin, now that we have the internet, now that we have mesh networks and all that sort of stuff, it's gonna be all the harder to shut it down completely.

- Yeah, I agree with you. It's gonna be interesting few years, but I think we win in the end. And thank God we have Bitcoin and Bitcoiners. Is there any other topics that you wanted to cover that we hadn't already?

If not, I think that's probably a good place to close it out. But it's been fascinating learning a little bit more about that part of history, which we spent a lot of time on in school and I clearly didn't really understand that there's definitely obvious parallels to what's going on today.

And it's just good to have our eyes open and be thinking. And like I said before, I really, really hope that we're wrong. But if we're not, then we need to be thinking now about organizing ourselves so we're ready.

- Yeah, I agree that this wraps up the story nicely. Things can get very bad, but Bitcoin gives hope and Bitcoiners give me even more hope. So I think in the end, we're gonna be fine. I hope it's before the end of my life.

- Thanks for coming on, mate. Thanks for sharing that. And I'm sure we'll have a lot of backlash and all that on Twitter, but there we are, fuck it. You've got to speak freely, you can't be holding your tongue just 'cause you're scared of people attacking.

So I respect that you've come on and talked about that. And yeah, it's been really nice to chat in person. - Thanks so much for having me. - Cheers, mate. Take care. - You as well.