Huge crash in bitcoin signal! Save yourself NOW!! Use freedom bitcoin, FOSS and listen to BTCxZelko

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

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Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Yeah.

Yeah. All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back to Bit by Bit. It's been a while. Apologies for anyone who's been waiting for a new show. I just didn't feel like it. Until Zelko reached out to me, I always enjoy having him on.

I have a huge amount of respect for this guy and the whole Ronan Dojo team. And to be honest, this was more of a venting session than anything else. Talking about some of the bullshit in the space and then also trying to focus in on what really matters, the projects that matter, the people that matter in the communities that matter.

And on reflection, there is a lot of bullshit out there, but there's also a lot to be hopeful for. And a lot of that is because of projects like Ronan Dojo. We talked about some of the updates and some of the products that Ronan Dojo are offering.

And we also talked about the importance of the pleb miners and the Mezhta Del group. It really is important that we build these groups out, that we build a circular economy, and that we start caring about our privacy, security, and how to step out of this fiat fuckery that we see surrounding us,

whether that's our food, our money, or our communities. I always enjoy chatting to Zelko, and I hope you enjoy listening. Before we start, I just want to say a big thank you to my sponsors.

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And yeah, if you have any questions at all, you can reach out and ask me. They are a sponsor because I chase them, because I think they are the best. If you haven't already got one of these, maybe it's time to upgrade your security.

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I don't think I have a shill code, but you can just mention me and I'm sure they'll look after you. All right, on with the show. Here he is. - I'm here. Can you hear me better? - Yeah, you sound much better.

He sounded like you were down a well. - Yeah, I normally use a USB mic thing when I'm in the office if I had to do something, or I use my phone, but yeah, I have like an actual microphone now.

So it's a little bit better. Hopefully it's coming in clear enough. I don't know if my volume's loud enough compared to yours, but... - Do I sound really loud? - No, I'm just looking at the little voice things.

- Oh yeah, that just lies. It's fine, I can do the most production anyway. But anyway, I'm glad he made it safely with that drive making you rush. It's been a while. When did we last speak?

- Oh man, I remember me and Estu talked with you. - That must have been a year or something like that. 'Cause you guys gave away a bakuto, didn't you, for our plebminer month? And that must have been...

Fuck, that must have been a year. 'Cause we've been doing our plebminer monthly show for seven months and that didn't happen for... Yeah, anyway, it's been too long. How are you, mate? - I'm good, man.

It's busy, busy, busy, but it's always rewarding. So I'm super stoked. Only good things can come when you're working hard and doing all that kind of shit, so. - Yeah. Well, it seems like you guys and a handful of others had just got your nose to the grindstone and doing things properly.

I think, you know, when I was chatting to you the other day, I was like, oh, just fucking sometimes have enough of this space and like some of the... Not even drama, just like... It's funny because it's like virtue signaling.

- Oh my goodness. - But not traditional virtue signaling. Like you'd have like, oh, I wanna save the climate and all that shit. It's like virtue signaling within Bitcoin to sound like you care about Bitcoin to become into the in-group when actually you don't give a fuck.

And like sometimes I just, I think, oh, for fuck's sake. And then the only thing that gives me like a little bit of hope is I speak to you guys from running dojo. I speak to the samurai guys.

I speak to people like Black Coffee and Q&A and a few others and I'm like, okay, no, it's fine. There is really a movement here. There is something happening. But it's, there's not many of us.

- No, it's fucking, it's fucking dire on Twitter and the conference scene and all this sort of stuff. It's, I don't know, it's pissing me off a little bit. - No, I definitely, it would be a fun thing to talk about for sure.

I think there's a lot of that. The only, and I try to say it after every conference, but the only thing that like gets me into it, it makes me wanna go do it, is meeting people. - It's like meeting, obviously, people, and like seeing the light bulb that they get it and whatever, but also seeing the people like,

seeing that more and more people, every single event, feels like more and more people are coming to the privacy side and like, like coming to our booth and bros or going to the privacy talk and droves.

And like, it's cool to see that. It's obnoxious for them to go on Twitter and have people make hand waving and saying, oh, this is private, and that's private, it's like, no, it's not like, no.

(laughing) - Do you know what's so funny as well as it's like, it's so simple. I was doing like for a while, I was doing loads and loads of podcasts and I was like, banging the content out 'cause like, I get the listener numbers up and I was like talking to a lot of people.

And then I was like, it was pretty fucking simple. There's a couple of people who put out good guides. There is a couple of projects that really matter and that's it. You set yourself up, you run a Tanto, you use Foundation if you wanna have a hardware wallet, use Samurai if you wanna have a mobile wallet,

you fucking stamp the stuff into steel, you have it mixing. And that's it. It's so simple, it's like this huge industry going on and like all the people like having these discussions that don't really matter.

And I don't know, like kind of it put me off a little bit where I was just like, ah, just sort of having conversations for the sake of having conversations. So then when we were chatting the other day I was, 'cause I hadn't done, I put a pod out for like a week.

So I've got loads of personal shit going on, loads of stuff that was more important. I was like, ah, I just can't be bothered. And then I was like, ah, let's speak to Zalco. Let's have a reset.

And I've seen you guys, you guys are moving. Like you're coming to Europe, you've got loads of stuff going on. So before we like slag the whole space off and just like be complete cunts, should we talk a little bit about what you've been doing since we last spoke?

- Yeah, we've been, I don't know if reorganizing is the right way to say it, but yeah, like refocusing effort and I've taken a, I was really focused in the back end for a while and I've been able to jump back in and kind of spearhead a bunch, a lot of the leadership and kind of help drive us forward, which has been a lot of fun.

'Cause it's a lot for one person, you know? So I'm glad that I've, even though I'm still part time, I'm able to really like kind of get everyone together and keep the direction moving really strong.

And you know, we've re-improved our like distribution system. So that's been really amazing. Like we finally have that up and running. Everything's going out of the EU now. There's pros and cons of course, but it's made our day to day a lot better so we can focus in other areas.

Development stuff has been awesome. I mean, it's even more stable. We switch to a Debian base operating system. So, you know, the support tickets that we get are near zero now. Very minimal stuff that is not even actual issue.

Like compared to where we were, where I used to be. And that was like part of why I liked working in the back end 'cause I was, you know, I wanted to be super happy with it. And I'm finally getting to that point.

And then I'm able to start planning, you know, what like V3's gonna look like. And so we're starting to build that architecture up and start doing the framework and seeing how that's gonna look.

The UI is being amazing. I mean, I know you've had Pavlon. There's gonna be a time here shortly where we're in a Dojo users will not need to use the Whirlpool GUI anymore. So you'll be able to do everything from your locally hosted web app.

- Oh, that would be nice. - Yep. - That's one of the worst things that the stack is fucking horrible. - Yeah. - It's fucking horrible there. I was speaking to Rabbit about it the other day actually.

I was like, why is this so shit? Like really, like everything else is so slick. Like Pav has done such a lovely job and you like all the UI is beautiful. And then I'm fucking around on this thing, which is constantly having errors and stopping and pissing around.

So you're saying that that can just not be used at all. - Yep, that's, we're really close. Like we've, I've already been testing the initial step which was being able to unlock it and start it.

So it's pretty much just the pairing process now. And that's the biggest jump. And once we can have that, I think we're gonna see some nice redesign going on to make it flow even better and make even more sense for users.

Make it more intuitive. But yeah, it's, we're actually really close to that and even swapping indexers. I mean, probably by the time that this is out, it should be there. So swapping indexers like from the UI is gonna be right there.

We have some other really cool ideas for onboarding new users, which we can talk about, but we have a lot of cool stuff planned, man. It's gonna be really exciting. From now until October is gonna be, it's gonna be super awesome.

- Yeah, swapping the indexes would be nice. I was doing it with my brain is completely fried. So you have to remind me the name. What's the super fast one that was made by the Bitcoin Cash or BSB or wherever it was that's being used?

- Yeah, Fulcrum. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Fulcrum. That is fucking crazy fast. - It's even faster on local, which is something to be out. Yeah, we're about to release that too. So you'll be able to connect to it locally.

So most people connect to the hardware world in how many ways. So we have that set up. So you'll be able to use your fulcrum, connect it with your wallet and all that other stuff. So it'll go fast when you're using it, like an expub re-scan inside of Mojo is really fast, right?

But sometimes it was fast, but obviously a lot faster than an electron rust server, but it wasn't as fast as it was like doing the expub re-scan in the UI. So now that we have it exposed to the local host only, like it or the local area network only is blazing fast.

Like using a sparrow, it's like, I had like a 10,000 address expub and it was done in like three seconds. And I was like, holy crap. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I felt. Look, because I was trying it before I'd had fulcrum, I was trying it and it kept freezing.

It was taking fucking, like it was take like an hour and then it wouldn't work. And then it'd take another hour and it wouldn't work. And the rabbit was like, I'll just use this. And it was like, I blinked and it was done.

- Yeah. - It was fucking incredible. It's such a game changer especially for people that like have deep wallets. Like you might not need it, maybe like initially like, hey, you just had a hardware wallet.

Because we get a lot of people like that. I've started to realize like our target population is a lot larger than just privacy people. We get a lot of, it's a really good like starting point for people because it's, you don't have a ton of crap that you don't need.

You're not like getting confused by what you should or shouldn't install, what you need or don't need. You just have it, right? So those people, like they might not, you know, you start out yet a treasure or a cold card or whatever.

Hopefully you just have a passport and kind of down with a flip. They have that and then their ex-pods plan out that deep. So using Electrum Rust servers, not that big of a deal. It's like once you start mixing, that you really want that to, you want to start making that consideration and swapping over.

That was such a game changer. Like as a person has always had this like struggle, it's been nice ever since I had that. I was like, I won't go back, I don't care. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - It's so worth it.

- It's incredible. And then you guys have been, I see you're doing the privacy phones and seems like you're expanding a little bit, is the kind of, is the idea that someone can come to you guys and be like, look, I just wanna fucking have a setup that works and keeps me private and I can't be asked

because this is like the, where I sit is everyone, like, you know, rabbit and Q and A and everyone just fucking laugh at me all the time because if there's anything that can be broken, like literally anything, I will break it.

I could probably sit and mess around and build these and I have built them in the past and then I spent days trying to fix them and mess around. I'd be like, my time's gonna be better spent just going.

I'll just buy something that works out of the box and not go through all the headaches and all the problems and then having all that stress and the worries, especially when you're new 'cause you're like, oh fuck, this hasn't connected.

Now if I lost sat and people are like worrying about whether they're actually gonna be secure. So if someone can come to you guys and be like, look, you just make sure I'm looked after and it's done and they have that support.

The value, you know, 'cause a lot of people in this industry have loads of money and all they've got good jobs and they're like, why do I wanna sit for three days fucking something up when this is not my area of expertise?

And there's people who literally do this as their job. This is all you guys are doing. Can't you just send it to me and it works? And it feels like you guys are pretty much there now. - Yes, and that, so that's been like the whole goals that we knew, right?

That they are, we always knew that there were people that wanted it to be easy. There's always gonna be the crowd that like wants to build themselves and not trust anybody and kind of be like hardcore, don't trust anyone, do it yourself, that's totally cool.

We always want that option available to people, but for these other people, it's like, I want privacy, I get it, I understand I'm sold. I just don't wanna have to mess around for three days.

I want it to be that easy for everybody. I want it to be, hey, plug it in, which is where we're at now. Thank God, where you can plug in your ethernet, plug in your power cord and then just go about your stuff once it's synced up, that's it.

So that's always been the goal 'cause we knew that was how most people are. Most people don't wanna have time for that. And that was the idea behind the run mobile, which was really a service and you kind of got two sides to it that, I mean, graphene speaks for itself as far as like being like the standard

of private mobile operating systems, but having that, being able to buy it in Bitcoin, if that's what you wanna do, buy in Bitcoin, not link to you and it comes out of the box ready to go.

And so what we have had to do recently and there's things that we learn as a young company trying to figure stuff out is things that work and things that don't like logistically and all that.

So that's been one of the harder ones is the phones until we can get a good plan or maybe until the seven A price drops. We're still gonna have 'em. We're gonna do 'em at conferences week.

We got two more coming up and then we're gonna try to make a really good logistics plan so it makes sense 'cause we brought 'em to Prague and people ate it up 'cause they can't get the phone to the price that we had it.

But yeah, a lot of people come up and they're like, "Hey, I have a large stack. "I want it to work and I want everything." Like, just give me everything. I think the demand and the need is there, you know, and that's what we wanna do.

But the cool thing with graphene now is that they've made a lot of improvements where now you can reflash it like on their website. I did it the other day for the first time. I did not pixel tablet actually just to see 'cause I wanna use it for conferences and it was stupid easy.

I remember the struggle of doing it myself and through the command line, I was like, "This is not fun." And I work in the command line and this was just so easy. Plug it in and then follow the prompts.

Like, just click, click, click and the next thing you know, you're done. And so I think the biggest benefit is that people don't even have to do that and then also that people can walk away with what they want.

Right? Like, you show up and you see the full stack in front of you and you're like, "Okay, this is perfect. I can go home and use it exactly how I want. I don't have to think." That's, there's a lot of people that are like that.

That's generally how I am. Like, I don't have a lot of free time to be thinking about how to set this up or best stuff. Like, I trust a lot of people who, I mean, I have a lot of respect for, you know, like the due diligence for best, you know, best apps to use, best one of the most privacy focus apps that I can be using

that are easiest to use and whatever. And, you know, I just don't have time to do all the research. So I'm also one of those people. And that's why I like the products, you know. - Yeah, and it's cool just to have it as an option because like, I remember two, three years ago setting up Graphene and Ron and Dojo on a Raspberry Pi

and a load of other Raspberry Pi's and Lightning and shit, whatever, just fucking so much stuff. And honestly, like, days at a time, it would be, I'd be sat there with a bottle of whiskey and sat for two days just trying to fucking put Graphene on a phone and it wouldn't work.

And then I'd be trying to do it on Linux and then that wouldn't work. And I'd be reaching out to someone smarter than me so that I could do it on something else. He's like, "I'll try." He was a fucking nightmare.

And I was like, "I don't work on my car. "Not because like, I couldn't possibly work it out." But because I'm like, "You know what? "I'm gonna feel more comfortable "that my brakes are definitely gonna work "if I take it to someone who does that all day, every day, "rather than me just pissing around."

It's the same with this, like, you can do it yourself but it is nice to have that option and just be like, "Ah, there's people who just know what they're doing "and they can just do it properly."

And yeah, it's cool. Full respect for people who want to sit and tinker. - Yeah, if you want to sit and tinker and like some people their time is more valuable than not saying other people's time is valuable but some people value that time that they could be doing something else, way more valuable.

For some people that have kids, some people that's, you know, other work that brings in money for them, they understand the privacy. But they're like, "I don't have time to do this. "I have it.

"Like, I want it, you know, let me make it happen." And like, that goes with people that we should want to focus on. Not focus on entirely but like, those are the people that get it. And I think that with like how the world is right now and has been improved itself to be, you see it even more.

And that's why I'm like, as bad as, you know, the whole COVID situation was as bad as, you know, all the lockdowns and all the things that are proceeding afterwards and I'm sure it's going to be worse going into an election cycle, you know, it's open people's eyes, at least a little bit.

Maybe not everybody but some people got burned, some people can see that other people got burned and have learned that they need to take this a little bit more serious. And that's what ultimately like what it takes sometimes is that people just need to learn a hard lesson, you know, plenty of kids.

There are some kids that don't need to touch the stove because they're told to talk and they get it. And then there's other kids that have to come up and we tell them not to and they're like, "Okay."

And then they touch it, you get burned on them. Yeah. Okay, I won't do that again. They're like, "Okay, like that, that's the world." You know, and that's okay. And that's like why, that's how I see Bitcoin, that's how I see privacy is.

Not everyone's going to get it right away. Hyper-Bitcoinization is a fun thing to like dream about. But the reality is we have no control over when people will appreciate sovereign money, right?

Like hard, sovereign money. You can't force that. Like we're not in a world where that works, that you think that it's going to happen this year next year. And if you think that price action is going to be what does it, I think you're missing the fucking point, you know?

Completely. It's like, you know, I see it, I see it similar to Tor. Actually, it kind of black built somebody at a Prague and I felt bad about it in a moment. They asked me the question that I didn't want to like, answer because I could tell that, you know, that they were new and to be fair,

now we've been in communication still, which is awesome. But they asked me like, what do you think it's going to be like next year? Do you think the price is going to go up really high? And you know, whatever.

And I was like, honestly, I don't know. And I don't really care. I don't work on Bitcoin because I care about getting, like being rich. I don't work in privacy because I want to be wealthy.

I do this because someone needs the tools. And one day someone wills, like a lot of people will need the tools or everyone will need the tools. And I want it to be there for them when they need it.

I was like, but I, and that's how I see Bitcoin. That's how I see this. And I told them that I was like, honestly, like, I don't know what Bitcoin price would be. It could go flat. It could go down.

I was like, but at the end of the day, the tool that is there, which is Bitcoin, that peer-to-peer digital cash that you can send anywhere around the world with no third parties, a pseudonymous, you know, form of money.

And I was like, that's what this is supposed to be about. Not about price action. I was like, I'm not the right person to ask, you know, give you this bullish case for hyper-baconisation and whatever.

I was like, I'll give you my honest truth. I was like, maybe, you never know. Bitcoin could end up being something like Tor, where some people use it for everything. But, you know, there's like censored people that absolutely need it and they're in shit hole countries.

Maybe they're not shit holes in the terms of Donald Trump. But like, they could just be countries that are run by horrible people. They need that privacy. They need that ability to communicate with the world.

And that's where Tor comes in, right? Like, that could honestly be the case. Hopefully on a larger level, 'cause financial exchanges is a little bit more than maybe not say internet services.

But like, that's what I see. I'm like, this is how I see it. And they were like, well, I never thought that I would get that answer. And I was like, I'm sorry. (laughing) I didn't mean to be like that.

I was like, you know, there's plenty of other people here who will tell you how Bitcoin's gonna go to the moon. And you should invest now so that you get rich. I was like, but that's not me.

And they wrote back to me like a week or two later. And we're like, yeah, we're on the fence about buying a Tonto, but we wanna do our research and get back to it. And I was like, okay, no problem.

Like, it's all good, right? And then they got back to me. Like, hey, we did our research. And we wanna, they lived in a different area that we're not used to shipping to. So we were trying to figure that piece out.

But they said they wanna buy Tonto. And I was like, that's awesome. I was like, what did it for you? And they were like, well, you guys have exactly, you're doing exactly what we want out of a node.

And honestly, your pitch sold us. You're the only person that gave us that perspective. And I was like, that's, that's pretty cool. - It sort of works counterintuitively. You know, like when people are running around telling everyone Bitcoin's gonna be 10 million a coin and fucking, you know, just like charging around,

like all excited, that screams cult. It screams, I desperately want you to buy this thing. When you have the approach where you're like, look mate, it's potentially gonna allow you to have more freedom in life and other people.

And it's the only thing that governments can't take from you or it's very difficult for them to take from you. And just look at the trajectory. And I don't know where the price is going, but it'd be cool to own something, wouldn't it?

You know, if you put it like that, they're like, hmm. And the right people are like, hmm, because we don't really need a million more hedge fund type people running around trust fund babies, lapping as freedom and privacy people.

Like you just, it's not necessary for us to have them. What you really want is just like normal people to be coming into this space and being like, you know what, I'm really sick of getting fucked by everyone constantly.

And you know what, it'd be really nice to be able to, when I die leave some money to my family and it not be fucking taken. Or if I'm in a really bad situation and my business gets taken from me and my house gets taken from me and the government fuck me like that, but I still have something that is mine.

And I think there's loads of people who are like that. And what frustrates me is that it's sold as oh, Bitcoin is freedom, Bitcoin is this and Bitcoin is that. And it's like on all the articles and all the podcasts and all the shows, it's like sold as that.

But then they're like, sign up with my link and you know, go and get your Bitcoin from swan and fucking, you know, whatever, go and use ledger. It's like, you can't have it both ways. It really, it's really frustrating because I think, you know, I remember coming into Bitcoin and being like, ah, it's anonymous and it's this

and it's that and then I was like using Ledger's node and not understanding what I was doing. And, but I was told, okay, well it's freedom tech and you know, you buy on Coinbase and then I was like, oh yeah, this is an amazing thing.

And then it was only after a while where I was like, oh, hold on. No, it's only that if you specifically take these steps. If you use the specific tools that actually work and you ignore the 90% of tools that are actually bullshit and they're pushed on every podcast and by everyone who's an influencer to make money

while they laugh, to pretend that they actually care about freedom. And if I ignore all of that shit and I use these tools and I don't tell anyone and I buy no KYC or I mine and then I mix and then I care about my UCXO management and and and and and and then it's really powerful.

But that's hard and I think it gets drowned out. That message gets drowned out by just, oh, you buy Bitcoin, right? Well, you're a fucking anarchist and you're going to change the world. No.

- I think, I think all your points are spot on. It's, it's really tough. I think for anybody to hit all of it at once, but the reality is it. And that's why, of course like help my team and the and the samurai guys are, it's like you kind of see through the bullshit of like you're pamping your bags versus,

you know, you actually care about this stuff. And then, you know, then all these people have this, like these great idea fairies that want to try to pitch this new idea, this new thing that is going to fix Bitcoin.

Now, like the Bitcoin's not broken. So I don't, I don't really, I never really understood those, those comments and those like ideas because they're just like throw random things or like, you know, lightning, oh, we can do this and do that and fix these things.

And I'm like, you're, you're trying to build in it. And I like the idea of trying to build and make better. Like that's should never be like prevented. Pitch it as like this fixes everything.

And I'm like it, you know. And then trying to discourage the tools that do work at the same time as your idea is so, you know, like counterintuitive. And you know, there's obviously like the sections of Bitcoin have different, you know.

It's a, there's a lot of, a lot of tribalism, but I think that ultimately, sometimes that's, that's actually good, you know. Sometimes it actually helps each other get better and steal, sharpen, steal type idea.

But it can be super disingenuous. I think a lot of people talk out of their ass cause they want to, they need to appease their, the people that pay them. And I think that's, that's probably the hardest part for podcasts is this idea that like, that most of them have to appease to someone.

And, and that's what I like about you is like, when you're, you know, like, I'd last you during the played minor, you're like, I'm my sponsor. So I say whatever the fuck I want. And I tell you not to fucking revive KYC and do this and that.

And I was like, that's awesome. Like that's, those are the type of sponsors that should exist. But it's, it's kind of shitty cause it's, it's the rest of the people that don't get enough of like the basics.

It's not, it's enough people to be like, oh, I recorded that one. So I don't need to do it again. And it's like, no, these people need to understand why, you know, why nodes are important.

Why are, why is UTXO management important? And it's like, well, you know, you did that podcast four years ago, but no one, you're not liking it. No one's like going back to us to it. And you as a part, like something that you, but like, talking to another podcaster, it's like, well, the only way for you to,

to make more money is to generate content. You should be like, bringing on someone who get a new perspective on that same basic thing, because most people still don't get that stuff. They still don't understand the basics.

If they did, I wouldn't have loads of people showing up to learn about, you know, the nodes in privacy and collaborative transactions and all these different things. You know, so it's tough.

I like, I do think that we need more of those people who are just like independent, don't give a shit. You know, they do it out of straight passion. And you know, finding a way to monetize is the key, is the key to everything.

You can get out of the VC some, you can get out of this other stuff. And it's not easy, especially not for podcasts. I don't think that's an easy thing. But like, I look at all the software guys like, dude, just like, stop fucking bending over backwards to get, you know, to rub shoulders with the right people

and to get these grants by these people and whatever. And it's like, dude, just fucking figure out for yourself. Like, learn to run a business. Learn to run to get this stuff done, because then you have no overlords.

Then you can actually be about freedom money, because you are operating freely. - That's a good point. You have to be free yourself to be able to talk freely. And to be honest, like, that's the thing with this podcast, is like, I have to work two fiat jobs and work like an absolute cunt, just to survive so that I can do the show.

But it's like, I can go and take sponsors on that I don't believe in. But then what's the point? 'Cause you can go and earn more money in fiat land anyway. So it's that careful balance of like keeping it surviving, but at the same time not selling out and it's like, it's a very, very difficult, I can see the draw.

Like, you know, there's lots of sponsors I could take on with this show and I'd make five, 10 times more than I make and I wouldn't have to work the two fiat jobs and I wouldn't be fucking exhausted.

But at the same time, I'd be like, I'd wake up in the morning, I'd look at myself and he'd be like, you're a cunt. - Absolutely. - Like, what is the point in what you're doing? You're a fucking loser.

And that's just honestly like how I look at 95% of the community now is like, you're just a fucking loser. You're just riding on the coattails to make some money. If you're gonna do that, you might as well go into banking or go in some fiat land work and just go and earn the money there because you're not representing.

There's always this kind of like, oh, I didn't know. Oh, I didn't know I was supporting Wasabi because they reached out to me and wanted to pay me. I didn't know that there's all these issues and I didn't know that they're selling surveillance software and I'm just reading the advert.

It says that it helps you with the privacy and it's so good and it integrates with fucking treasure and blah, blah, blah. And it's gonna be amazing. It's like, this and you come. You're not that stupid.

- If you are, it should be done. - Yeah, I mean, they're not that stupid. You know what you're doing. And the same with all the exchanges. And so I'm really lucky that I mean, I wouldn't be able to run this show if fast Bitcoins didn't pay me to literally shit on the every single episode.

So like a big shout out to Danny Brewster for doing that. I wouldn't be able to do it otherwise. And it's kind of, it's a sad situation. And that's the one reason that I like some of the lightning stuff that's going on is it's the only other way that I've found to keep this thing running is that people send me sats and messages

and like, yeah, lightning has its problems. Like get it, like totally get it. And know there's this whole, I don't know, there seems to be some tribalism between like a lot of the privacy guys and the lightning stuff.

But my position on it is like every single month I put out shows, people send me messages and they send me sats. And it genuinely helps to keep this thing going. And I'm like, well, that is a use case because no one does it on chain.

Actually not no one, I get a couple of people who send to my pain them to be fair. But nowhere near the same amounts, like it's not even close. And so I'm like, well, that is kind of a use case.

Like it's not perfect. And I have some problems with fountain and sometimes I can't log in and blah blah blah. And it's custodial, like get it. But it's not like life changing money. If I get rugged by them, I'm like, okay, I'm still gonna pay my rent.

Like it's not the end of the world. So I like that part of lightning. But other than that, I don't really use it. - And it's funny, 'cause I know exactly what you're talking about with like privacy guys versus that.

And I don't think it's ever been, most people don't really care about our true opinion on it. But I can't talk for everybody. My position's always been that like, lightning has use case things for different things.

The main piece is some people. And like, I think I've always recognized at least at the podcast one where you can stream and be earnings that's like, that's a solid use case. Like that's something good, right?

But like, the only reason it started to get really aggressive is when people, you know, try to say it's these like crowds on Twitter that try to come out and say like, oh, well, why would you use on chain and like get privacy?

Yeah, well, you could have privacy on lightning. It's like, we'll just kid yourself. And the best lightning stuff or easiest to use or whatever is generally custodial lightning walls. And you know, so like that's fine.

And at least like acknowledge like what it is, you know, like acknowledge that like there's improvements that need to be made or whatever. Is it the perfect layer to? Absolutely not. I mean, is it like a, does it keep all of the same like ethos of Bitcoin?

It can like in theory of like non-custodial and whatever and trying to go peer-to-peer and whatever it can when people need arguments. It's a lot harder. And then you're paying the same amount anyways.

You might as well just do on chain. So it's like one of those like, I think that it's the false kind of kind of going back into the people that are just shilling just to show. Yeah. And they're not just, they're just not being genuine about the trade-offs.

And if they like claim to, right? Because they hear something else, whether they claim, I recognize the trade-off or whatever. I was like, yeah, but you didn't recognize it in the 16 other tweets that got 2000 engagement or 10,000 engagement on it.

You didn't say anything then, on your little side replies, you might have said it, but no one saw it. Like who cares, right? Like it's about, it's like kind of that standpoint where it doesn't feel genuine that people are doing it and then they try to dunk on using on chain.

And it's like, well, I just see that as kind of silly. But I do see, like I think that especially the podcast stuff where you can be earning stuff and people feel more comfortable sending, even if it's a small amount, feel more comfortable doing that.

Like, yeah, like that's, why not? You know what I mean? Like, I don't have a better solution for you. So like, who am I to sit there and say like, well, it's a trashy social music. Like, it is what it is, you know?

Like, I don't, I don't know if they have anything with it. I just don't like being dictated when people say like, oh, if you don't have lightning support, you're going to die. Or if you don't have, you know, like for wallets, if you don't have lightning, you're going to die.

And I'm like, that's just not it. It's really dumb. You're making yourself look stupid. And they just keep doubling down. But I do give shout outs to those kind of going back like the podcast news that like one person that I did kind of like, at least we had a really good conversation.

I'm like, I don't think anyone's perfect in the space at all other than you, you're perfect. But that's because you worked two jobs. You're like me, I feel you, man. Two jobs plus this, right?

So I got to talk to BTC sessions at Prague. And I was really, you know, it was cool because we had talked before. And when he told me, like when we had talked about the whole wasabi censorship, blacklist thing and whatever.

And it was cool to see someone who was like, yeah, that's fucked up. Like, I don't know if that's all it stands. So I don't want to speak for someone. But him dropping them as a sponsor after is a big move.

And I respect that a lot. And, you know, everything that he was doing for the-- and then we had a long conversation about this. But talking about the truck drivers and the whole Canadian situation.

Like, that was kind of what I told him. This sucks, it's kind of awkward because I know he played a big part in it. But I told him how, what a missed opportunity. You know, like, we talk about onboarding and wanting people to be about Bitcoin.

I'm like, man, out of all the people who would truly get it. And like, live in a country where they could do it. You know, like, it's not like, it's one thing that people in like, corrupt country need the freedom money.

But it's, you know, the loopholes to get through it without being found out is more difficult. The Canadians are in that situation. But they like, literally could have had that. They could have been onboard the right way, learned right then and there, why this is perfect.

And I know that he also, like, recognized that too. But, you know, like, it's like, oh, we got a multi-sig. And then we got to do this thing. And I think I'm like, dude, they don't care. Like, they're truck drivers.

And then it's not anything bad about that. There's nothing wrong with being a truck driver at all. I was like, but they're not Bitcoin. Like, they're not tech guys. They're not maybe some of them are, I don't know.

But probably not, right? Like, they're probably just normal people who either never heard about Bitcoin or don't care about it. They care about feeding their family. So do that. And do that using Bitcoin, right?

Use gift cards, use whatever, figure it out. But like, just get them that shit first. And tell them like, hey, this is from, you know, Bitcoins all around the world are supporting your cause.

We want to give you this stuff. Scan the QR code and you'll get to kind of read about the story, how that happened and what Bitcoin is. And leave it at that. They take it, they take it, if they don't, they don't.

But like, they're going to, I guarantee you, a normal person who had their bank accounts closed, who had no way to feed their family. We're standing up for something they believed in. And they're getting, you know, a way to survive from strangers on the internet.

They're going to take a look at it. I mean, I put myself in that situation, like trying to remove myself. And I was like, at least I would do that. Might not be that second, you know? So, you know, need to eat or whatever.

But like, at least you're going to look at it and be like, okay, so hold on, what is this? I don't need a bank. I can figure out how to do this without it. And, you know, like, that's big, it's massive.

And then they don't need, they can learn how to convert without, you know, without having to go into a bank or an exchange and they could buy gift cards or whatever. Like, dude, like, dude, that's, that's where it is.

Just do it right there. You guys had it. So I'm just going to work on it. - Well, that's the huge thing is like, trying to do that, that circular stuff. It's like, the big reason that I got involved with John and doing all of the mining stuff, even though I can't mine in the UK 'cause our electricity costs are just fucking absurd.

I mean, it's just like, you can't, you can do all the maths you want and try and plan a million things out. But basically there's no chance. But the reason I got involved with him and doing the plug mine a monthly and also the Metro Dell.

So I was like, who gets it? Like, who, who matters, like, through all the noise? I was like, right, the miners matter because they're getting no KYC sats if they do it right. And like a kind of alchemist and a lot of the other guys who were talking about at the time, like really like switched me on to that.

And I was like, okay, this is cool. Like someone can do this the right way. They can get this out. Now they need to pay their electricity bills. So they need some fiat. What are they going to do?

Okay, they need to sell some of that. And I was seeing this like mix between the privacy groups and the mining groups. And then mixed into that was this Metro Dell idea, which is like everyone who's doing like their own farming and they have chickens or they're growing produce and they're building stuff.

And the key here really is like, how do you get Bitcoiners to be able to exchange their sats for either produce or fiat where they want through this network of people who actually care about Bitcoin and completely cut out all of the banks and all of the services and all of the bullshit.

So that even if they have a fiat job and they pay their mortgage or they rent and they do all the stuff like above board, they have this sort of second life where they're like, I have cash.

And this is their digital cash where they can sort of live as people used to 50 years ago. What's so funny is like most of the people who are in are plant mining groups are engineers or builders and plumbers and drivers and whatever else it is like they're more the blue collar people and the blue collar people get it

because they understand that government isn't there to fucking help you. They're not on the furlough schemes. They're not being looked after. They're the ones who actually can think logically and they're also the people who are building.

And so it's quite cool to see you've got the sort of the think boy, philosopher Bitcoin shit going on on one side and then you've got real people with real skills and real problems on the other side who are like, right, we're gonna build some stuff that works and they're working together.

So I kind of see it that maybe there's that split off and I don't know, it's almost like it goes two ways. You just have people who are mining, they've got the privacy skills and that is the new cash.

And so when you have this, you know, next time you have this kind of issues like you had in Canada with all the truck drivers, maybe the approach is different. Maybe it's like, okay, let's add you into this group.

You can see what we're doing. We're mining and we're using the heat to grow, produce and we're doing this and we're doing that and blah, blah, blah. That's what I'd like people to see when they see Bitcoin rather than someone go, oh, I used to work at a hedge fund and let me tell you this thing's gonna be worth a billion dollars.

It's like, oh fuck off. Like that's not what they want to hear. They just want to hear it's safe, it's secure. You can send it, no one can take it, done. Yeah, and I can use it, you know, like, we have to build the one that's digital cash to figure out a way to expand that ecosystem, which kind of goes into one of the ideas

and one of the things that we're trying to expand into in the next year is there was a meetup that I joined recently 'cause I wanted to find something before I end up moving in the area and they, you know, they're talking about building out a, like an ecosystem, like their own ecosystem.

They're on like people whose skill sets have a thing and they want to, they can offer their skills, trades and skills for Bitcoin. I'm like, that's fucking great. Like someone who like fixes roofs.

I'm like, oh cool, at least now I have a directory of people that I can refer to, right? If I'm like, hey, like my roof's jacked up, who can I call all this dude? He accepts Bitcoin, perfect, right?

Like, I think that's a, I think more communities doing that is amazing. And then, you know, we're trying to help these local meetups, people that are getting together to like support themselves and kind of have their own stream of revenue besides just like meeting up together for whatever it is that they want to use their money for.

But I'm trying to build like a meetup partnership program so that, you know, I can do something like get it to them, get them tattoos that, you know, will front them or whatever and then we can, and we'll sell to them like wholesale, right?

So they just get us back the money later on when they sell them, right? So like, and then they keep their money, whatever they sell for, they just get us back the wholesale price and that's it.

And that way they can at least be generating something. You can be promoting privacy, you can be promoting sovereignty, you're promoting running a node like all these things and you're able to help keep yourself up, right?

Because that's ultimately what it kind of comes down to is that, you know, these, a lot of meetups, more people go to meetups and they do conferences, right? So conferences are great for, you know, for what they are.

But like, I'd love to see more people like these meetups expanding and becoming more, you know, versatile, more people building out, like, hey, like, I have chickens and eggs and whatever, I'll sell eggs for this many cents, whatever, you know, like, yeah.

And it sounds, it sounds silly, but like these small things, like this is how it starts, like it starts like this, you know, and then it moves into like trying to continuously grow, grow the thing.

But if you're going to sit back and hope and pray that Amazon is the answer, you know, or those options are the answer, you're just fucking crazy. Like, I think there was something recently with, what's his name, Robert Kennedy, who's done a lot of politicians so that he wants to get rid of the capital gains tax on Bitcoin or whatever.

And I'm sure I haven't even looked, I didn't want to look at like the, I'm assuming, just praising and like holding this guy up as a God among people. - He's a politician. - Yeah, but you just, I can almost guarantee if I go on Twitter to look for it, I'm going to see all these people talk about how amazing he is

and how he's got their vote, like all this shit and like who gets who cares. They're going to do what everybody does, which is just say what people want to hear. Like he's not dumb, like he's around on two things that love the people really want to hear, which is like COVID's bad, like the vaccine was bad.

And like this is like another small one that I'm like two things for Bitcoiners, I guess I'll say. - Yeah. - Bitcoin news, and then that's, and the vaccine stuff. And I'm like, he sold 90% of the people if they just bought and they followed right there.

He's not dumb, like that doesn't mean shit. Show me what you're going to do. Like actually do it, you know? - Yeah. - It's interesting. I think the space is going to be continuously interesting, but I really hope that we can grow those ecosystems and really help meetups, help themselves and all that.

So it's a cool plan that we have. - I'm going to add you into the Plevminer monthly group if I haven't already and the MeSHADL group. It's not massive, but it's like a few hundred really fucking solid Bitcoiners.

They're either they've got farms or they're engineers. They're building full heating systems with miners. They're doing all sorts of crazy shit. They're really fucking cool. They actually do things properly like the care about privacy.

They care about trying to build the circular economy and so a lot of them are starting meetups and doing that kind of stuff. So they're the types of groups of people where I just want to speak to them rather than just hear the same old bullshit on Twitter.

I'm so close to just fucking pulling the plug on it. And then the other thing is like, I'm like, ah, if I pull the plug on it, do I just go to, do I go to Noster? And then I'm like, yeah.

I don't understand it fully enough. It seems kind of cool, but then there's all this hype around it which tells me from experience that maybe it's going to be a fucking nightmare. So yeah.

- I mean, it's like an ecosystem within an ecosystem. - Yeah. - So all the same people that you'd be trying to get away from from Twitter are all on Noster. And I mean, yeah, that is what it is.

I haven't played around enough on it to be able to talk about it with any full extent. That's just my observation of like, all the people who I expected would be in Noster is in Noster. But I think, yeah, I like caring about the plate minor group and the mesh group.

I think that's super, super awesome. And I think they're going to continue to like what we're building. We got some cool stuff on our roadmap. It's going to only enhance overall sovereignty.

And I'm super hyped for it. Like it's going to, something that I know that no one else is going to do. And it's not about running sovereign apps on your financial network, you know, like it's, it's stuff that can really make a difference in people's lives.

But I also like, I want to join it too because one question I always get at meet at like meetups or conferences is like, I want to buy like no KYC. Like, like how can I buy it or whatever.

- Mine is. - I want to send them to minors. I just don't have this like pocket directory of minors. I can be like, yeah, join this group. They'll help you out. So having something like that, like I get it, I get it a lot.

Like that's, because they're like, okay, they've run this and then buy no KYC. What do I do that? And I'm like, well, you can use this, you can use this, whatever. And then, you know, I'm like, but minors, if you're going by consistently the best thing is having like a minor hookup or somebody that, you know, you know,

works full time in Bitcoin and they need to liquidate, you know, like that's another good one. - They've got to pay their electricity bills. Like, you know, they've got to pay. So they're always selling.

- Yeah. - It's such a good way in. And then it's like, you know, we try and encourage people to actually mine at home. But equally, if you're in Europe, fucking don't even bother me. - Yeah.

- There's no point. You just buy your sats from another minor who's in America or elsewhere who has sub 10 cent. I mean, I'm paying, I haven't even looked at my recent bill. Something like 45P, so like 60 cents, a kilowatt hour.

- Holy crap. - Oh, yeah. I had, in December, I had a 900 pounds. So like $1,300 bill. And I live in a two and a half bed terraced house that's about the size of a postage stamp. - That's literally insane.

- It is fucking mental. You know, people are like, oh yeah, I live in Europe. I want to get mining. And I'm like, it's cool that you want to mine. It's really cool. And I love that you're excited about this.

But honestly, if you live in Europe, unless you're actually using an electric space heater any way to heat your garage or you're doing something like that, if you're not using gas if you're using an electric space heater, then okay, get yourself a cheap something like an S9 or something and you know, it's going to use the same power

and you're going to get a few sats, not money, but something. - That's cool, but don't be trying to start some sort of operation here because whatever you come up with, you're never going to beat the fact that you're paying 60 cents a kilowatt hour.

It's fucking mental. - Yeah. I mean, there's the argument for mining, like home mining. Is it its own thing? And that's at reasonable prices. I mean, I obviously like, I would articulate why.

But like, I can see why someone would be like, that's not like cost advantage, like cost advantageous for me or whatever, which we know the counter, right? But at 60 cents or 60, 60 beats as a game, like that's, like it's almost better to either have a miner that in the States or somebody has cheap

or you know, like either buy it from them by their Bitcoin or buy a miner from them or buy a, you know, whatever. You can work out like some sort of like costing if you trust them, right?

Like buy the Bitcoin. It depends on how you want to do it. But you know, sometimes you do have to be like realistic about like, is this going to work or not? So, you know, it's interesting.

And it's been exciting to kind of see everyone, to see the space like evolve, especially home mining stuff, like I swear, it felt like it died for a long time. And I'm between like, I mean, leading up to yours, right?

We had like a diverter doing a ton for that poll. She had the kind of alchemist do a ton for that push and seeing it kind of evolve, like, I don't know if there was other things outside of that.

Maybe I just like lived in a bubble, but I saw that start. And then like, it just kind of caught fire of just like, everyone's like, wait, we can do this? Oh my God. And they're like, ah, this makes so much more sense.

And then I see, you know, it was like, now it's like, it's not even weird to talk about it as if like home mining is a bad thing. Or like it's like stupid. It's like, no, like that makes total sense for the right people, especially.

- Genuinely without diverter and a kind of alchemist, I wouldn't have been bothered 'cause they're two people that I respected. And I was like, okay, these guys are talking about how to respect them, looked into it.

And then John was trying to put this conference together. And he was just fiat bullshit, typical fiat bullshit. I'm running a Bitcoin conference, blah, blah, blah. We don't actually care about Bitcoin.

We're absolute cunts. And John was like, nah, I've put all this effort and all this time in, I'm just gonna pull the plug. They're just cunts. And I was like, mate, you put so much effort and his wife had put so much effort.

And it was like so much amazing content. I was like, fuck it, just use my pod. Let's just, let's go. Let's do this. This is really cool. And so that's how it started. And then there was like, those guys are conno and diverter and tech engineer got involved.

And then suddenly we had like, I don't know, like one or 200 people joined the group. And then we were like, fuck it. Let's just do a monthly show. And the monthly show went mental. The numbers I get on that show, especially with like people sending in sats and doing messages and stuff is like 5X, what I get on a normal show.

Because people are like, yeah, like genuine. Like people are like, this is fucking cool. Like they want to mine. They want to do things properly. And so that's kind of like, I just see there's this synergy between the two groups.

You know, you've got your privacy group and you've got your mining group. And the rest is just like, ah, just fuck off. So I'm just spending more and more time with that. - I think you should do.

- Yeah, 'cause I can say easily that it's not unrealistic for people to burn out out or to like lose faith. Like if I wasn't in the group of people that I was, you know, it's easy to be like, man, why am I like, especially like working more than one job.

And, you know, and I'm put myself back in school. I don't know why, well, I know why, but I'm just a glutton for punishment, I guess. And yeah, I'm getting computer science degree this time, I guess.

But, you know, it's like, it's easy to get burnt out. And then like looking at some of the stuff on Twitter and you're like, oh my God, dude, like, what are we doing? But at the same time, I meet some people or someone reaches out, like, you know, like the person that I met at Prague, they email me.

It was like, I was already getting started to like, get to that point of just being burnt out, like, move back up, like just take a breather. And then I was like, fuck now, like, this is it, I got it.

That's just the juice that I needed. And that's really what it comes out for me is, I'm like, man, I need to see more people. And I love going out and meeting people and like seeing the reality of the space, which is not Twitter, which is not Noster, which is not the everyday conference, you know,

these like big gigantic conferences that cost more than people making a month, you know, to go to, like, I want to go make counterarguments at those. You know, I want to, I want to write those people, but like, I have way more fun at conferences, like the smaller ones, like the guns in Bitcoin.

I know I really enjoy the platform, but guns in Bitcoins always fucking awesome. Yeah, we would love to have you out there, man. I know a bunch of us are going to be out there this year, so super excited.

And yeah, I just, you know, if you need to take a break, man, you should take a break. Cause again, your podcast is one of the few that I really like hanging out. And just chatting cause, I mean, I think, of course, like we see eye to eye on a lot of stuff, but it's nice to like actually know that not everyone,

not everyone is like a follower, you know, not everyone is or trying to be this, you know, next level thought leader and whatever, you know, trying to do, trying to educate people in the right way.

It's like why a lot of podcasts are start. And then next thing you know, they're like trying to be this thing that moves markets and moves projects and accepting money for stuff. And I'm like, do you know what I was?

It's sad. Yeah, like I met Peter McCormick for first time at Prague cause he like introduced me before I went out, which I was not ready for the same, just for the record. Like I like, they told me I was going to be on main stage and really know what that meant.

That was a big main stage, which was cool. I like, I'm glad I kind of got one under my boat, but it was, it was a lot. And it was funny cause like, I remember not knowing that he was going to be the guy who introduced me.

And I like talked to him, he's like, Hey, what's with me? Like blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I'll I remember about, I mean, like I've never listened to his podcast. I've never followed his stuff on Twitter.

The only thing I've ever remembered about him is he tried to join one of our groups on Telegram. And he said something just immediately got dumped on. And like, - Of course he did. - One after another, like just everybody shut on him.

And then it was like, I remember just saying like, fuck off, this is nerd shit anyways. And then he left. And I just remember that like, when he introduced me, and like, I'm pretty sure I was in that like dunking group.

He was like, oh, so what do you do? Whatever, I'm like, bitch, if you like, why are you trying to introduce me? If you don't even know what I do or what's going on. I'm like, you're such a fucking whatever.

I'm like, it's cool. I was like, you clearly don't know anything. And you just kind of like do whatever you're paid to do. - It was very apparent to me at that point. And I don't care about talk show on him.

- He's so transparent that it doesn't even annoy me. - Yeah. - He's so transparent that it's like, yeah, whatever. Like, you're here for the money. You're here for the fiat. That's okay. It's fine.

- At least it costs, you know, like. - Semi, he's like semi on it. There's like, oh, I didn't realize that every single one of my sponsors is going to fucking steal from all of my listeners.

You know, there's that like reverse Kramer, whereas like, whatever he puts out, like you can bet against it. - Yep. - You can reverse Kramer with McCormack. You can be like, who's his new sponsor?

Oh, okay. Right, they're gonna fuck all of his listeners. Guaranteed within three to four months, they're gonna fuck all of his listeners. So that like annoys me a bit. But then if you listen to any amount of his shows, you can go, yeah, he's here for fear.

And so if you're gonna carry on listening, you're gonna get dunked on, like you're gonna have your sat stolen from you. And that's fine. And he makes a fucking fortune doing it. What annoys me more is when you have like someone who pretends to really care and then like push against the mainstream narrative

and like try and create like an edgy feel. And then actually what they will do is they will just do the same shit. That's what really annoys me. Like the bullshit, like the in between bullshit really annoys me.

Where's my call mark? I'm like, yeah, whatever, you can do what you're gonna do. Yeah, yeah, but I think this base hopefully, I mean, I don't think we'll see those type of people ever like to spear.

But I do think that people are more wise to it. I think the more the, you know, that's with anything, right? Like more time that goes, more experienced people get, the more their eyes open, people who are their heroes turn into the enemy quicker than they think.

And so, you know, just like with anything, like people, most people join for the number to go up and then they go through a bear market and they're like, holy fuck, what happened? And then once you get through, once you go through one or two, you're like, oh, whatever.

I'll wait. Yeah. I'll wait till I have more buying power, right? Like we'll just, and you know, it just, it comes with experience not of my first, I terrified, but it didn't help. My wife was like, just sell it all.

Well, it's going to go to zero. And I was like, shout out to people, you know. But, you know, it's, I think the space is going to round out. I really do. And the only reason I think that is honestly, stuff like the plate mining stuff that you're talking about with these groups, like the, just like that random group that I joined in,

that was like a cute a couple of days ago, same people doing that. And seeing just how many people are coming to all the talks. And like, I don't know if it's, if it has anything to do with like just a privacy claim and people want to see more privacy stuff, but like me getting, I continuously get bigger stages

to talk on, which is awesome just 'cause I get to reach a larger group. Do you ever get nervous going on the stage? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I, for sure, I was funny 'cause like, if it's like a regular size, like thing, like if I'm doing like a workshop or something and there's like 100 people or 50 people or whatever,

you know, I get a little butterflies and then I start and it's all good. And like this last one was definitely the most nervous 'cause I had to like walk all the way to the giant hall, all the way to get to the back stage.

And I was like, oh shit, this is a lot bigger than I thought it was. A lot more people, okay. And then right after me was Michael Saylor, who, you know, our God and Savior. I've been trying to get him on the show, but I just got you.

Oh yeah, I know, I'm sorry. I'm always, you know, the thing is what it's like is it's normally right after my talk is that he comes on, so it's a good sign. You're the warm up. No one. (laughing) Yeah, I was like, that's what my wife is saying.

She was like, you should go tell him like, hey, I warmed him up for you or whatever. (laughing) I don't really care. He can do what he wants, you know, he's gonna say and people are gonna wanna listen 'cause that's what people do, you know.

But it was, I was like, wow, this is, I was definitely nervous. Like the whole time I'm leading up to it, I was like, oh, I don't, I really don't wanna do this. It's too late, you know what I'm saying?

But once I got up there and now that I've done it, I'm definitely, I feel a lot better doing the future and public speaking in general, doesn't mean being nervous. Oh really? Yeah, I think it's just a fact that like, I've never been on a stage that big and I don't normally do TED Talk style things.

I like conversations, I like interacting. I was just a little bit proud, which I did do. It was just awkward 'cause it wasn't for that. But yeah, it was fun. And so I think I'll always get nervous, a little nervous, but I've done a lot of public speaking in the past and teaching and stuff like that.

So I try not to get too nervous. I would be fucking shaking in my boots, mate. I'd been asked to do nothing like that, nothing like big stages, but I'd been asked to do a couple of bits and I'm like, not a fucking chance, mate.

Not a, no, no, I've got nothing to offer. Like I can sit and have a conversation with people who are building shit and doing stuff and like, you know, can have a laugh at them and I enjoy that.

But it's like, what do I get up there and just be like, yeah, very long saying here. And also like, I get fucking massive panic attacks. Like on the floor, fucking convulsing panic attacks.

So it's just not for me, like I'm not. And also it's not enjoyable. I really enjoy my conversations when I have people that I want on and that's all I have is people that I want on. So it's like, I enjoy that.

Like, why do I need to be having a like doing a talk? If I did a talk, I would literally go, right guys, you want to speak to Zelko for your node. If you have any problems, you want to speak to Brother Rabbit and Bitcoin Q&A, you want to download Samurai Wallet, you want to download Sparrow Wallet and we're done.

Speak to them. Do you know what I mean? That would be a lot. That would be a lot. Now, I definitely, I can understand why people wouldn't want to go up and necessarily always talk or even put like be the host with a lot.

Like it's, I think it is a lot on anybody. I do think that you want to play yourself. I think this is like, this is one of the things that I've always valued. I mean, especially with you, but like other people because I relate a lot as a person didn't know anything about computers and all that,

but like that like relationship that you have with you, whether it's your listeners or just regular people is more valuable than having some devs on. Like it is infinite and not to say there's anything wrong with having devs on, like they have their own place to do that, but there is a different connection

and a different level of trust that happens with a person who can stand there and say, "Hey, I spent four days trying to get Graphene done "two years ago." You know, that's something that people can relate to.

You know, it's like, "Oh, this guy is also..." You know, he's not up here just telling me that he's a tech guy. He's someone that like I get, like he's a normal person. - He's a genuine retard.

Like a... - I like the power of that, like, yes, but yeah. 'Cause it's so intimidating, like you gotta think, like these people, and like there are plenty of like podcasters or people who are highly knowledgeable in the area, or at least they're the buzzwords, and it sounds like they know what they're talking about,

and then they bring on other people who really know the space, and then, you know, one thing leads to another, but like the regular person, they're like, I don't know, they'll listen and they'll think they'll try to understand it, but like having a regular person on who can talk like a regular, like in a language that everyone understands

because they also don't speak high level autism, you know? High-function autism. (laughing) You know, like it's invaluable. So don't think that, you know, don't think that because like you're a voice that people don't wanna hear.

I think that really undersells your overall value. I think that, and that's why like, I didn't, I mean, like, yeah, I could have reached out to a bunch of the podcast. I reached out to you, 'cause one, I enjoy talking to you, but two, I find your stuff far more valuable to the regular people, and that's who I care about, you know?

The people that need this stuff, and you're the voice. You're the one that understands it and gets it like they do in a way that they get it. So don't understand what you're saying. - I appreciate that, mate.

I'm gonna go cry now. (laughing) - What the heck? (laughing) - No, I appreciate it, mate. I'm not gonna quit. It's just, I just think I'm gonna re-jig things a little bit and just focus on the things that I care about and accept, like I've just accepted that this is a third job, you know?

You're not gonna be a fucking Joe Rogan. You're gonna just talk to people you wanna talk to and build some cool shit, and maybe Bitcoin helps and few people have some freedom, and if that happens, then cool, and like, on your deathbed, you can go, well, I did something that was worthwhile.

That's cool, like, I'm happy with that. It's just a case of like, dialing it back. I think I just spent too much time and obsessed too much, and like I said to you before, I was like, it's really simple to do things right in Bitcoin, and I think I just got so excited about a million different projects,

and I need to know everything, and I started trying to code, and I started trying to do all these million things while having a family and having two jobs and fucking sleeping four hours a night and burning myself out, and now I've just got to the point where I'm like, just tell people, there's four or five

good projects that you need to care about, unless you're like a really nerdy cunt, there's four or five things you need to do, and you do that, and that's it. And don't worry about everything else.

And then join these cool little communities, and you can trade, and you can buy your eggs, or you can do whatever and sell your Bitcoin, and whatever. That's it, and I think that's just what I'm gonna focus on, and not worry about the 10 millionth wallet that's come on the scene, or the new article

from someone who's writing some philosophy about why Bitcoin is similar to sawdust, and it's just like, I don't know, it's a lot that goes on in the space, and it's just, there's very little that matters.

Luckily enough, there's like seed sign as a really cool community, so I've had a few with them, and obviously Craig's been on a few times, who's talked about his wallet, and the samurai guys, and luckily there's enough of you guys at Ronan Dojo, and whatever, and I do my monthlies with Q&A, and Ansemos and stuff, but outside of that,

I don't really see too much. And then the other thing I see is like, people like Brother Rabbit, why is he on not on more podcasts? 'Cause he's the most fucking helpful bastard in the world.

So honestly, Brother Rabbit is the most helpful person in the entire world, and nothing's ever too much for him. Like, there's so many times that I'm like, oh my God, I'm so stuck, and there's this problem, and then Brother Rabbit's there, and he's like, okay mate, we'll just work through this, what you want to do is go over to the,

and he's like the best person in the entire world, and I never hear him on a podcast. - So it's funny that you say that because I feel the exact same way with, like his insight and everything is amazing.

I always saw him, I was like, you're, 'cause he used to bring these ideas to the table, and he'd be like, oh, wouldn't it be amazing if we could have this, and then do that? And I was like, yeah, yeah, man, we'll get to that, eventually, like he kind of got used to me, like kind of shutting them down, but like,

and now when I'm like, no, no, no, I like, like I want to hear yourself, I want to hear what you're saying, and 'cause we've been able to kind of stabilize everything, and I'm like, what do you think about this?

I'm like, what do you think about that? And like, honestly, he's so, I try to tell him all the time, like, dude, I cannot state how much I appreciate just having him around, and he's just an asset to, you know, not just to run Dojo or the samurai community or anything like that, like he's an asset to Bitcoin.

- I do agree, he should probably go on some podcasts, but he would probably argue something like, he doesn't have the voice for radio or something, I don't know. He, he's a humble guy, he probably would be like you, and probably think that no one would actually, he's like, well, no, he probably would say

he's not building anything, so why does it matter? - Yeah, that's exactly what he's saying. - You don't think he understands, you know, just like I don't think you do, but it's, he's an outstanding person.

I'm glad that I've met him a couple of times now, and I'm glad that I can definitely call him one of my close friends, and if he ever left me, I'd be very sad, for sure. - We're like both professing our love for him.

We're gonna have to fight over him now. - Oh yeah, death match. - Well, we could share him, maybe we could share him. - Ah, that's tough. (laughing) - The correct terms in agreement. (laughing) - Instead, if I ever make it out to America, I will go to Guns N' Bitcoin, and I'll bring rabbit with me, and we will all go and have a beer.

Or if you ever find your way to the UK for some fucking weird reason, then again, we'll all go and have a beer, and we'll just, we won't fight over him. - 1000%, you got me sold. I wanna get you out to Guns N' Bitcoin, like 100%, so.

But yeah, let's definitely do that, let's meet up, have a beer, I definitely owe London a round for sure. Q and A always need to go. So, let's do that, man. - All right, mate, well, I've taken enough of your time.

I know you're building, so we'll do this again soon, and it's always a pleasure speaking to you. We've slagged most people off. We've been cunts, but it's been nice. It's always fun to finally be able to speak, you know, to talk reality, you know, kind of get out of the space.

So, I appreciate it, man, I'm excited. Hopefully you guys are, everyone's gonna love what we got puttin' out, so. - I'm sure we will. - We'll work something out for sure. And yeah, I appreciate you having me on, man.

I really do. - Anytime. - Glad I can get a photo, too. - All right, mate. Take care, we'll speak again soon. - All right, sounds good, brother. Thanks again to Zilco and the whole Ronan Dojo team.

They are one of the few projects that really give me hope in this space. And if you haven't checked them out already, I hope this has given you a push to do it. Go to Ronandojo.io. And if you have any questions, non-technical questions, you can reach out to me and I'll walk you through it.

I have a huge amount of respect for these guys, and I hope you enjoy using their products.