Meshtadel monthly 0006 with Dim Zayan and Czino

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space, and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Today's episode of the Mestadel was with me, Chino, and Dim. I always love chatting to these guys, and I'd also say for anyone who hasn't checked out Dim's art, go and do it now. It's absolutely phenomenal.

Some of the stuff he's been coming out with recently absolutely blows my mind. We featured him previously for "21ism." If I remember, I'll put the link in the show notes. But, yeah, I love chatting to them, and we covered all sorts of topics around the Mestadel, growing your own produce, how to help create these networks with other plebs.

We talked about mushrooms, talked about bears. We covered all sorts, but actually after the conversation, I sat with Chino, and we'd always sort of allowed the Mestadel to be something that is organically growing.

That was always the plan, is that, you know, this is an idea that was thought up by Sol X and his son. Sol X boy, it's a fantastic idea that I just knew had to be built on. We now have our telegram group.

We are doing our spaces live, and I think it's now gonna be two a month, so we're gonna do the 12th and the 21st. Definitely the 21st, I'll double check on the 12th, and we'll put a tweet out about that.

But we want people to join the conversation, and we want to help make Bitcoin as more sovereign. We want them to be self-sufficient and strong and smart and be able to protect their families and all the things that are gonna be necessary in the coming months and years.

So, we decided after this call that we'd like to have things a little bit more structured. In the new structure, what we're thinking is to do something starting from yourself and working outwards.

You know, there's no point in having all these SATs, but then your mental health is not good, and your physical health is not good. And then, if your mental health and physical health is not good, how are you gonna be with your family and friends and your plebnet works, you know?

So, that's what we're gonna try and do. We're gonna discuss it in the spaces. Anyone who is listening and thinks they'd like to jump in, they have some ideas, that'd be awesome. We can map it out, and it just means that there's gonna be a bit more of a flow to this, and that people can really start following along

and we can all improve together. So, I'm really excited about that, and I really hope you enjoy this episode. Before we dive in, I just want to say thank you to my new sponsors. We've got foundation devices.

They are my favorite hardware wallet with the passport. It's open source, it uses QR code scanning, which makes it so, so easy. You compare it with Spectre or Sparrow to my favorite desktops.

And it's become my favorite thing to use. I use it all the time now, just because it's so simple. If you decide you would like one of these or you want any more information, you can contact me.

And if you're gonna pull the trigger, if you're gonna get one of these sent to you, you can use bit by bit in the checkout, and you'll get $10 off your purchase. Next up, we've got FastBitcoins.

FastBitcoins are growing at a rapid rate. I've just done an interview with Danny Brewster, the CEO, and he's awesome. I really, really enjoyed that chat. He's very open, very honest, and he just says it how it is.

He's doing his very best to onboard new Bitcoiners in the most simple, slickest, and safest way possible. Go to FastBitcoins.com. And last but not least, we have Casa. Casa are making it so simple for people to use multi-sig.

It really is like a 30-minute setup. They can hold your hand the whole way through. I've been running this for about a year, not for all of my sats, but certainly for proportion. And it gives a little bit of peace of mind.

We actually cover it in this episode. A little bit, Dim was discussing and thinking about Casa, and I don't think he actually knew that you could have a $10 a month option. I think that a lot of people, when they think of Casa, only think of the more expensive plans, people couldn't dip their toe in.

$10 a month so that you sleep soundly at night, and you know that your family are gonna get your coins. If anything happens to you, being able to sleep soundly at night is very, very valuable.

So if you'd like to check out their services, you can go to keys.casa. And if you have any questions for me, as I say, I've been running this for a year. Very happy to answer anything. Just reach out, slide in my DMs, jump into the mesh to Dell, whatever it is you wanna do.

You can contact me and I'd be happy to help. Dim, she know you there. - I do, hey guys. - Hey, how you doing? - I'm good, but I get when I'm looking at Zencaster, under my name, there's a area that says health check and it says warning.

It's not a good sign. - Yeah, that's not to do with your audio. That's just in general. You're a danger, a danger to society. - Okay, so breathing's all right, there's no problem. - Yeah, I think everything's good.

I quite often get that. So I can see all the sound waves, I think we're cool. - All right, I don't see my sound waves on my end. So as long as you know that it's gonna be all right and we're not gonna recall for an hour without my voice, everything's okay.

- No, I think we're good. I can't ever 100% guarantee, but I think we're good, it all looks fine. Nice to have you both on. How are we doing? - I'm pretty good, just a bit tired from all the hard work on my land today.

- Any work on the garden or the house or has it been like fiat mining work? - I don't know, I always take the Fridays of last two months of the year or three months. I was working on my water deposit that was heavy rainfall a few months ago and we had to clean the bottom because it was not properly sealed.

So that was quite an adventure diving down there. - I bet, Tim, are you privy to what Chino's doing with his place or not? - Well, I was into the know when I think you know you were just starting.

That was last year, right? And I'm sure that since you have done a lot of improvements that I'm not aware of, but I'm sure I wanna hear about it 'cause Chino, I don't know if you know Max, but Chino is the one who really introduced me properly to the world of thermoculture by pointing me into the right direction of picking the right books

and giving me a few tips. So I gave him a lot of credits for helping me dive down that rabbit hole. - Yeah, I'm looking forward to hear what you gained already in your cultivation. I think you already stepped further than I am because you're already producing fruits and vegetables.

- I'm not, I'm still working on the ground, working, so to speak. - Well, I mean, putting the foundation is so important, and once you have them right, it's so much easier. But I would be very guilty and naturally right, if I was actually saying I've done it by myself, a lot of the reason why we get so much of harvest

is because of my wife. She is the one who has the green term, and I'm trying to bring a little bit of my, you know, tinkering in terms of thermoculture, but she's just arrived and say, okay, let's do it like this and put the raised bed gathered and had the treatises here.

And she knows, it's like she was born with it, you know? - That's crazy. - And we ended up having so much food from, you know, we don't have that much of a white pipeline, but we have, you know, sufficient to plant a few things.

And we ended up with so much food that we don't know what to do with it. We have to give it away. And even after giving it away, we still have some more growing. I mean, I would have never guessed that just a few plants of tomatoes bring so much and can feed that many people.

- Have you thought of pickling and what's it called? If you peel the tomatoes and put them in jars, it's not pickling something else. - Preserving. - Preserving, yeah, preserving is a better word, yeah.

- Yeah, we did that the first year and then the second year we pick out, it's a lot of work. (laughs) And I mean, taking care of the garden is a lot of work on itself. And after that, you know, if you have to do the whole pickling process, et cetera, it's a small work.

And so we try to freeze a lot of things, but the thing with tomatoes is that it's one of those fruits that don't really do well with freezing. So you have to process them in a way before.

So it's either by making, as you said, pickling or preserving, or you actually turn them into sauces. But keeping the fruit as is, it's, I've looked online, also have people who have experimented with freezing processes, different kind of approaches.

And nobody was really successful with it. You lose a lot of the flavor of the texture, et cetera. - You know what I have seen, the grandparents of my girlfriend, they used to hang the tomatoes and cover them.

I think it was sole four, like to keep the bucks away. And it seemed to have preserved them for a few months. - Oh, really? Oh, that's interesting. So you don't freeze them, you just leave them outside and you hang them?

- Yeah, that's what they did in a dry and dark place with the sole four around, and they lasted. But don't take my word for that. I think it was sole four, it was yellowish. So didn't ask, didn't know how to ask back then.

- Oh, no, that's interesting. I would probably have to find a place outside of the house to just spread sulfur around. But that's interesting to try, 'cause even after giving it, you give it to the neighbors, you give it to people around.

Then you end up eating whatever you can, and you try to preserve as much as you can. But then you always have part of the harvest that's still you're gonna end up tossing, and you feel so bad every time.

Even if it goes back to the compost, it feels like a waste. So finding ways to keep it and save it without doing too much overhead. It's another quest that we've been trying to achieve. So definitely I'll look into a sulfur.

What about you, man? So what's the plan with growing? Once you're gonna start having some ground that is ready, do you have already a plan of action in terms of what you're gonna grow? Not specifically, like probably try everything and see what sticks and what's not.

But the problem right now is that we are not living in the house, so we don't think about doing a big operation in the garden because it's a bit more labor intensive than just being there on the weekend, if you can.

But this year, at least we want to try some keyhole gardening. It's kind of a raised bed, but in the shape of a keyhole. And the reason why we want to have it raised is because there are rabbits around and we need to fend them off and we haven't gotten around yet putting a fence that is rapid proof, if that's even possible

because they can't take on everything. So maybe raising the bed will help and then we see what we can grow some winter vegetables. - Nice, yeah, raised beds are actually, we have a few and they usually have less critters.

The keyhole is actually in one of the book you recommended, which is Gaiya's Gallon, a fantastic book who anyone who wants to do something like culture I highly recommend it. And they talk about the keyhole shape as one of the most efficient way of, in terms of optimizing real estate.

And what they talk about as well is try to do for all the, whether it's rabbits or deers or any animal that would come and eat some of the crops is to plant, deter and plant around your keyhole so that day before entering the area with the food that the plants that are food for you, you put plants that are food for them

that are not necessarily food for you and they will stop there. So they will eat the plants that are in the perimeter but everything that's inside, they don't need to go because they already find their food outside.

I don't know if that really works 'cause I haven't tried but that's an interesting strategy as well. - Yeah, so do you want to try? - Sorry, Chino cutting you off. - No, yeah, yeah. - Just a question from me 'cause, you know, you guys are more heavily into the permaculture.

I'm just sitting and learning from you both but the keyhole idea, the keyhole shape, why is it that this is suggested? And when you say keyholes, you mean like rounded half moon at the top and then slimming down at the bottom like a traditional sort of keyhole or what do you mean by that?

- You want? - Go ahead, Chino, since you've been experimenting with that. - Yeah, like as the name says, it's like shape, kind of like a keyhole so you have a round shape and only one entrance and then you find yourself in the middle and you can reach every plant from the center point.

And what I'm like, I think there are two kinds of keyholes, like one is the raised bed kind of keyhole and then another one is just on the floor. What I'm currently looking is the raised bed one.

And they're in the center, there is even a compost bin in the middle that you just throw in your compost and if you have ideally some worms, they go in there, they eat this stuff and decompose it and then they migrate to the outer part and also bring all the nutrients to the plants where they need it.

- Ah, so when you're talking about a keyhole, you're actually standing in the keyhole so that you can access everything rather than the plants are just in something that's the shape of a keyhole.

- Yeah, like you know, in nutritional gardening, it's like mostly you have straight rows of vegetables and you have to walk a lot and not to speak, like not to mention about like irrigation, you have to either walk the whole way to irrigate it or lay out the irrigation lines, but in the keyhole shape,

you just have either a sprinkler in the middle or you are the person irrigating, you don't have to move. So that's why it's like very efficient. - It will be saves your back as well if it's raised.

- That as well, yes. - And so the other thing that the keyhole brings, it's the minimum amount of space of real estate used for walking and one of the main principles of commercial I train in terms of design, they try to make the amount of path and walking area

to the minimum because it's space that you cannot use for growing plants and it's usually more of when you're on the edges, if I understand correctly, I'm far away from being an expert. So you know, correct me, stop me if I'm wrong, but the areas that are close to the path are the disturbed area,

they are the more fragile ones 'cause they're exposed and they don't have as much of, you have too much, a lot of interaction happening. So they try to limit the amount of spaces for path, which is terrible for me 'cause one of the things I really love to do is making path everywhere in the property, but that's the way it is.

You have to give more room to the land so that it's a left alone and not disturb it. - By the way, Tim, okay, we kind of already went way past the introduction at the beginning that I wanted to ask you, how are you doing?

Like since your accidents, have you fully recovered? - Oh well, mostly, yeah, thanks for asking. It's been quite an experience and honestly, just to put, Max, I've done a few, you know. - Yeah, I was gonna ask in a minute with the chainsaw, right?

- Well, a chainsaw was involved, but fortunately for me, it's not the reason of the accident. Although the real culprit is not necessary any better. It's the tree I was cutting. So a tree, there was a storm and a tree fell on the driveway and it was not a small tree, it was a major maple tree.

So, you know, pretty, pretty big tree. And I was cutting it down with one of the neighbors who very kindly helped me out. And we were 90% down and of course, you know, it's really the last 10% that was the most difficult in whatever you achieve.

And surely enough, his chainsaw got stuck in the trunk, my chainsaw got stuck in the trunk and we were trying to wiggle the tree, whatever was left the trunk to free the chainsaws. And mind you, the tree had fallen, but it was kind of an equally brilliant on the driveway where the rocks are and there was, you know,

it was a fork with two parts. So we were in the middle trying to move that tree so that chainsaw would get free. And surely enough, the tree started rolling on itself and the second part of the trunk hit my head, maybe four on the rocks.

We had like these big rocks next to the driver and fell back on my head. So basically, my head got crushed between a rock and a tree, a rock and a half base and literally, I heard a crack in my skull.

I started being blood flowing from my ears, my nose, my eyes everywhere. And honestly, I really thought I was dying, you know, and I would crush them on the side of the driveway big drama, you know, my wife arrived, the neighbor started calling the police, the fireman came, helicopter, everything, the whole shabang.

And then they took me to the hospital and, you know, I thought, okay, you know, that was it. And the first thing that I thought about, and actually the only thing I thought about is, my God, how is my wife and my family

is going to get a hold of my Bitcoin? How did I really make them clear enough? Is that going to be possible? And I was so worried, you know, that I would not be able to be there for them to have them out.

And I mean, that's where those moments where you really see what matters and what matters was the family. Nothing else was important, you know? Family and Bitcoin. (laughing) Nothing that I really thought it was like, is made.

That fear of thinking, well, what if they can't access it? I can't imagine what that's like and I can't imagine what it's like to feel how you did, but fully recover now. And also, did you reassess your storage and make sure now that you wouldn't be concerned if you got hit by a bus, you know, that actually that they can access it?

Yeah, so I'm much better. Thank you. After more than six weeks of nearly eating liquids, I'm better. I have a brand new Joe that's made out of titanium. So now I can start in a James Bond movie.

So that's great. I haven't seen the last one, but I hope Joe's come back. And then, you know, apart from that, I mean, you know, it's still have bruises and cuts and things here and there, but honestly, it could have been so much worse than that.

And from now on, I leave the trick heading to the professionals, you know, that's really the lesson I've learned. And the other lesson I've learned is how to deal with that kind of problem in terms of storage and retrieving bitcoins for the loved ones.

You know, if anything happens, what's the strategy? And people are using things like Casa, which is, I'm sure, a great strategy. But I was trying to see what's the deal when you don't want to have a third party, when you want to remain as lean as possible.

And so I've kind of thought about a way to send basically pieces of the passphrase, the keys to people. And everybody has a piece of the passphrase. And so let's say you have a wheel with 10 people.

And out of the 10 people, you send each of those people in the envelope with a word, one of the 12 words. 12, you know, if it's 20 words, we'll talk more. But a fraction of those passphrases from each of the person in a sealed envelope.

And you say, if anything happens to me, you send the envelopes, you give the envelopes to whoever the name is on. And those people will also give you an envelope for you. So basically it plays as a collection system for people to retrieve their passphrase.

And they cannot have it before. And then if you decide to change your wheel, you just resend a fresh batch of passwords. So it's very paper oriented, it's very old fashioned. But I like that approach because it also, it doesn't rely on any tech.

And it's easy for anyone, even people who are not ready yet to retrieve or to be in the know in terms of what they have to do technically. So you could even have that system for 10 years, and that would work.

So, - Just as long as you trust, as long as you trust properly the people that you're giving these words to, that they won't collude or that they won't lose them. I guess if you have that trust, if it's people you really trust, then it works.

- Yeah, but if you think about it, the same goes if you give them actually the full keys. They still have to be careful with it and not lose it. And they have to do their own due diligence in terms of how to start properly the Bitcoin.

So all those problems exist no matter what. And I think the trust level also goes as a group. So that's an interesting dynamic. So if you have people that you know, and you have family members and you all care for them, and you hope that they interact well enough with each other so that they can you kind of try to inoculate

a level of interest with people. And if they wanna retrieve something, they have to trust each other. And that's also something important for you as you know, if you have people that you love, you want to make sure that they love each other as well.

Enough so that they can share this type of information. So it's not without flows for sure. And it's a system that needs probably improvement over time, but that's what I have so far. And if you guys have another strategy or something you wanna share, we'd love to hear it 'cause it's a program that everybody will face no matter what.

- Yeah, for me, I haven't felt the need yet to think about this stuff. Like I know one person who is in full knowledge how to retrieve those bitcoins by significant other, but apart from that, nobody else.

And I think that there's still running dangers. Like if something happens to both of us, then those bitcoins will be a donation through the rest of the world. But of course, like got a bit, I don't want to think about that.

But yeah, maybe things will change as soon as we gonna have kids. - Yeah, I think that's a big one, isn't it? And there's a lot to be said for like multi-sig and things like Casa or Gray also just doing it yourself if you were technically capable and using something like seed sign or something like that.

But I think everyone has a sort of level of comfort and you just progress and you constantly iterate and change. And what's most important is that you sleep well at night and that you know that there's a high probability that if anything happens to you that your loved ones get it

and sometimes over-complicating it then stresses you out more. If you do something you don't fully understand. Like me with multi-sig, I haven't gone down that path yet because I'm just like hmm, I don't feel completely comfortable with it.

So I'm sticking to what I'm currently doing even though what I'm currently doing is not technically as good. So it's a personal thing, isn't it? - Well, it's also that some of those systems, but I haven't checked really as I said in a while, but I know that it makes sense if you have quite an amount of Bitcoin,

but if you have really small amounts, using something like that, the cost of running it monthly is too high for being meaningful. But I guess at the same time, if you don't have a huge amount, you don't really need the system 'cause if you use it, it's not really important.

- So, yeah. - The two of three with CASA, I actually use it for a percentage of mine for that exact reason. And I think it's $10 a month, which is not-- - Oh, okay. - Yeah, for the gold one.

So you can spend like $5,000 or whatever it is for the full concierge service and three of five and like someone that you can call any day of the week and all that kind of side of things.

But if you just want like a basic two of three multi-sig, I paid $10 a month and I paid it in Bitcoin and you don't also have to register your details. So like when I set mine up, I just did it with a undoxed email, like a brand new email, put everything through Whirlpool before I sent it there.

So technically there's very little traceability and then just have a proportion there so that if anything happens to me, then my loved ones can get hold of it. So it's sort of like a middle ground.

But of course you can do it for free. It's just do you have the time and-- - The understanding. - Exactly and I don't. I don't have the time of the understanding right now. It's something I'd like to do.

But yeah, it's definitely something worth considering, I think. - Yeah, you know what I think the world needs and I think it will happen once we're in a Bitcoinized world is a movie about exactly this situation like somebody in the family dies and everybody receives a letter, a mysterious letter like with parts of the passphrase

and then the family has to come together and figure this out and you see like all the drama happening. And of course, happy ending the family. Like they learn how to trust each other and they unlock the Bitcoin.

- Actually, you know, it's funny though. Can you imagine all the movies that are gonna come out about Bitcoin? - A lot. - A lot. (laughing) - As long as they actually like a more reality because right now I feel like if a movie touches the topic of Bitcoin, it's mostly ridiculous.

Like the mainstream narrative of what Bitcoin is perceived as. - Yeah. - And I'm waiting for a movie that actually makes sense from a Bitcoin perspective. - Yeah, 'cause they're gonna say like, oh, it's a load of drug dealers and bad guys and we're doing all this shady, shadowy super code of stuff.

Or get rich, quick, or stuff like that. - Exactly. And actually we're sat here talking about tomatoes and how much we love our family and, you know, wholesome things like that. So it's not exactly on point the way they're portraying us.

- Yeah. - Yeah. - It's coming. - We're still early. - Very. Yeah, I think very, very early. And the reason we've started this show is, you know, you can talk about Bitcoin all day every day and you can get to a point where you understand that this is the best money ever and that the value will continue to increase

and it's better on all the fronts that we know. But what's most important is the family and your loved ones and making sure that people are eating well and they're healthy and you have good relationships with people and you have the time to spend with them.

And that's kind of the point for this show is that it's kind of moving onwards and upwards because now you have that kind of safety net. You know, you have that in the back of your head thinking, well, my purchasing power should increase and I have more freedom than I would without this.

So where can I spend my time to improve other aspects of my life and the lives of my friends and family? And that's what's really exciting me at the moment. - You know, I really noticed what you just said and really noticed that yesterday when we had the Twitter spaces, I think it was full of Bitcoiners

but we did not really talk about Bitcoin at all. It was very fascinating to see. Like, I think at some point, when you figured it out, okay, Bitcoin is here to stay and it's going to be the base, the foundation of a new world we're gonna usher in.

Now we're actually talking about things that matter like how to get to this new world. Like we figured out the money and now we have to figure out everything else as well. - Yeah, how does it bleed to the other topics and going back to what we were talking about earlier, I mean, it's always seen permaculture

and because part of the same philosophy and interestingly enough, it seems like it's the case for many people. Why do you think it is, you know? Why do you think the correlation between Bitcoin and permaculture is so obvious?

- I think in its core is the low-time preference. Like, you know, the fiat culture is like, you want things now and basically in agriculture, it means strip mining, what do you have right now?

Which means, of course, that the soils are being depleted and Bitcoin and permaculture have this very much in common. This is how I actually started realizing those parallels and based on that, figuring out of shit, it's actually also about energy.

You know, Bitcoin is an energy currency and in permaculture, you try to increase the energy flow that you have on your land or in your operation at the same time. So once you start going down, you see more and more of those parallels and it's surprising to me still that Bitcoiners, for them, it's easier to discover permaculture

because they see how well it aligns. But from the other way, like from permaculture to Bitcoin, there seems like a barrier, like they don't see the full picture yet. - Mm-hmm. Have you tried orange-pilling many permaculture people?

Like, is there anything that they align with and that twigs or are they just completely like a normal no-coiner? - Well, I mostly only know permaculture is through Bitcoin. Like, we have this telegram group with Bitcoin and permaculture.

So I know, actually, almost everybody in permaculture, except for a few individuals. But I know, like, through reading through forums, like, for example, Paul Wheaton, he is fond of Bitcoin because somebody used to give him some many years ago, and there was a forum, in his forum, a thread about Bitcoin and energy,

and he was defending Bitcoin. So he sees value in that, although he's not openly admitting that he, like, uses or holds Bitcoin. - Yeah, I wonder why that is. I suppose it's probably that it's just, it's just such a complex topic and because it's multidisciplinary, like, you have to be a certain type of person

to spend the time to get into it. And it maybe doesn't seem obvious to everybody, whereas, like, I can understand the allure for anybody to be interested in permaculture, because who wouldn't want to make the most of their land and have high quality, nutritionally dense food for their families?

Like, that surely should be the starting point, arguably, as the most important thing is the energy source that we put into our own bodies. So it almost should come first. - That's true. - Also, like, coming back to the question why permaculture people are less into Bitcoin, there's also, like, this separation,

like Nanya also explained already, both the purple breathers. And I went also a bit deeper into this, and there's really, like, the distinction between those that are more esotericly inclined towards permaculture, and then there are the others that are more capitalistic or materialistic.

Like, they use permaculture, like, because it's efficient, because it makes sense. And then there are the others who are more into, like, this idea of fair share and giving back to the people.

And I think just by looking into those two categories, you can see which group is more likely to discover Bitcoin, which one is less. And I remember there were also some talks about, like, of course, cryptocurrency, but more the idea of an altcoin that is, like, distributed in a fair manner.

And, of course, now, the recent example is this world current. - World current. - World current thing. (both laughing) - What, like, why do we even pay attention to this? Because only the guy who comes up with it is from OpenAI.

And now it seems like, oh, yeah, this is the new thing. And then you realize, fuck, you have to scan your iris and basically give up your biometric data. Oh, my God, like... - I'm guessing this is a joke for a split second.

I thought you were about to feel us world current. - No, absolutely not, like, absolutely against it. Like, seriously, oh, it's fairly distributed, but what do you give up? Like, basically your biological identity, great.

- Yeah. - And I thought I shows were that, but you're okay. (both laughing) - Well, people are still coming up with the wannabe Bitcoin competitors in 2021. It's amazing that it's still happening.

I'm really... I'm completely shocked that we have not moved on from that way of thinking yet. - It's easy pickings. It's just so easy, isn't it? Get some good marketing, get some hype. Sell something that people have little understanding of.

Yeah, people just will continue. I can't imagine that this stops probably ever. I think people are always going to fall for this kind of stuff. - Scan or something to scan? - Yeah, you're always going to, because someone can paint this beautiful picture of how something's going to be, and we want to believe it, so we fall for it.

And yeah, it's a lot easier to just jump on something like that, than take the time to understand what is money and why should I care. It's a slow and tedious process to go through that. And people just aren't interested.

Can't be bothered, and they do what they do. That's why it will persist. - But to go back for a second to the correlation between permaculture and Bitcoin, I think there's one more thing I would like to add is, do you see also the correlation?

Because in both of them, there's this strong sense of independence, and in kind of, you see, there's this whole meaning of freedom and how we feel and why we approach Bitcoin. But if you look at the reason why permaculture, permaculture, because it's given independence to nature, you respect nature and you give them,

you understand that by living them alone, plants can do wonders. You don't need to influence them that much. You just go with the flow and you listen to nature, you look at how it functions, and you just try to communicate with it.

And if you see that the plants need something, you just have them out, but you don't try to force your way. And by living, so there's a strong sense of respect of freedom and independence.

- That's a great point. - And interestingly enough, if you look at the work of the transcendentalist and their philosophy, so we're talking about Emerson, Toro, that's their philosophy, they wanted, they were strong believers of individualism, of independence, they were rejecting the system,

basically, they were rejecting the centralized authority, and they were the huge respect for nature. So you have a lot of the points of the transcendentalist that you're finding today in the corners.

I found that creation really interesting. - Yeah, that's such a good point. It's like the Austrian economics way of doing things of like, let the free market aside, need things alone, don't interfere versus Keynesianism, like people just interfering, thinking they're smart enough to fuck around

with a complex system, and nature's too complex, and we've proven that, because look at the problems we've got, that's a massive point. And also, in terms of freedom, the idea of having your own produce that you have on your land, means that no matter how crazy the world gets, if you're not allowed into a supermarket

because of some fucking stupid policy, then, well, you can go out to your garden and you can still feed yourself, and that just helps you sleep better at night, I imagine, it's a powerful thing, and you're taking responsibility for it, which is another key thing that I see in Bitcoiners is like,

you very rarely see Bitcoiners make excuses, or put blame on others, most of them will take it on the chin and say, yep, that's my fault, it's my responsibility, I must do better, and if you don't actually produce anything in your garden, there's an issue, then it's like, right, well, there's something I'm doing wrong here,

let me fix it, rather than, you know, blame supply chains or anything like that. - Yeah, that's a great way to practice self-responsibility. - Dim, this mighty blue oyster, I saw a picture of on your Twitter, mushrooms, are you growing many of them, is it just mushrooms and tomatoes, or like, can you talk me through a little bit

through your garden, and like, what have you got? - Sure, well, after what I just said, but not interfering with nature, you're gonna be disappointed. (laughing) But yeah, no, so mushrooms is a little simple, so the garden itself, we have this year, we had, like I just said, the tons of tomatoes, a plethora of hot peppers, of jalapenos,

we had potatoes, acorns, squashes, cucumbers, and blueberries, tons of different herbs, so that's been the group for this year. And in addition to that, I was actually, you know, my father, unfortunately, was secret cancer,

and I had been looking at a lot of alternative medicines, and I stumbled upon this talk with this guy named Paul Stamets. - Oh, he's a fucking amazing that guy. - Oh, he's incredible. And he had, actually, there was a show on Netflix as well, but mushrooms, isn't it?

It is the one being the main guy being interviewed. Anyway, he's been in since the '70s into the mushroom rabbit hole. He became some kind of an expert in the field, and he knows pretty much everything about it.

And so I've got his book, and then in his book, he talks about the fact that it helped his mother, who was secret breast cancer, and she was actually left as not given any chance of survival by the doctors, but he ended up like filling out a daily dose of, what's the name of that mushroom?

I forgot the name, but this is-- - This one is mine. - No, not that it's mine. It's another one that has a lot of medicinal properties, and she was fed on a daily basis, and she survived the cancer in a day where all the other members of her study group were didn't.

So I don't know how much he emphasized, and he adds maybe embellishes the story a little bit, but no matter what, that made me go into that direction and want to learn more. And I ended up getting my little rig, my little station for growing mushrooms, and I got into a bit of a rabbit hole there

and started wanting to grow some gourmet mushrooms. And so I ended up growing blue oysters and lion's man, which does, it has a lot of medicinal properties where I think it helps with memory and it helps your nerves grow back.

So people say that it helps treating dementia as well. So I don't know about all of this, you always hear a lot of things about the wonderful properties of things, certainly part as all the properties in the world, I think it's great, but I don't know if it's cures everything.

So I'm sure there's a lot of access in what people say, but at the same time, it's a world that we don't know much about, and there's a lot to explore. So I'm sure if you put your needle in the middle of the spectrum, you will find some happy medium, and I'm sure there's a lot of good things about mushrooms.

So I wanted to dive in a little bit more into it, and I grew those two, and when I say it's not really a latent nature of doing its job, where I have in my garage a set up, where I have a tent, and I grow indoors, and basically I buy these big bags of mushrooms, of grain that is already inoculated

with mushrooms, and then with that, I get some sodas from the local meal in exchange of mushrooms, actually, and then I mix it with water and some nutrients, and then you sterilize, you make those bags of 10 to five pounds, and you sterilize them in your huge sterilizer, and once they're sterilized, you inoculate them

with some spon, what they call spon, which is the grain already inoculated with the mushroom, the mycelium, and then you wait for about 10 days, and magically those bags start becoming all white, because the mycelium is just eating its way through the bag, and after 10 to 14 days, you just cut up on the bag,

and you put them in an area, in a room, which has a lot of humidity and some sunlight, and after another 10 days, you get those beautiful mushrooms. - When you say somewhere that has a lot at all, like a reasonable amount of light and humidity, would something like a greenhouse or a conservatory work for something like this?

- Yeah, so what I have in the garage is a greenhouse. Basically, you have the three conditions, you have the humidity, the temperature, and the light, and actually there's a fourth condition, which is the most important, I think it's the fact that everything has to be sterilized, so you have a sterilization level,

but I put it separately because it's not the elements of nature. So once you have a very high humidity, there is somewhat control, that you have some indirect sunlight, and that your temperature is not crazy cold, and not deadly hot, you can grow mushrooms.

So it's not that much work once you have done the sterilization process. Really, the sterilization is really the most painful because it requires some heavy-duty equipment, and you have to really set up some kind of laboratory setup where you have a HEPA filter, where you have gloves, where you feel like you're entering an hospital,

that is coronavirus psychopath area, you know? But once you have that in place, and you have your bag sterilized, then it's fairly easy. You know, I used to grow a very special kind of mushroom, so I know a bit about that.

And what I did, I just built a little cardboard box with some plexiglass on top, so I couldn't see what is inside, and then on the both sides, some holes where I can put in my hands into gloves, and everything inside was already pre-sterilized, so whatever I'm doing there is in a sterile environment.

And yeah, I can definitely second it, like, sterilization is very important because once it gets contaminated with some other fungi, they can quickly overcome, of course, it depends on the kind of mushroom you're growing, but instead of white, it can turn green, and then it's bad.

- Yeah, exactly. When it turns green, interestingly enough, you're actually making penicillin. The thing about mushrooms, or macerium, it will get killed by any other form of mold of fungi.

They are kind of weak compared to other ones, so other mold will be very aggressive, so if you create an environment that is full of nutrients and you inoculate the macerium in it, chances are if it's not sterilized, some other organism will be more aggressive than the macerium, and we end up colonizing the whole thing,

and your macerium will be killed. So that's why it's very important. But once it has kind of taken over, then it's a healthy macerium, it can produce fruits, and the fruits are the mushrooms.

- And when you're sterilizing this, are you sterilizing with some form of chemical or heat, or like, what's that process like for somebody who maybe is listening to this and considering, oh, maybe I'll give this a go, like, what's that process look like?

- So I have this heavy duty pressure cooker. - Yeah, they did the same process, yeah. - Yeah, I mean, that's the way to go. You're what they call autoclaves, so it's depending on the size of your operation, and it can range from a few pounds to tens of hundreds of pounds that you can do in one blow.

But basically, if you really want to run a mushroom business, you need a lot of space in terms of your sterilizer to run a lot of volume. But so basically it's a pressure cooker that can run at least 20 to 25 PSI of pressure, and because some of those molds, they will survive just boiling water.

It's not high enough, boiling water, it's the 100 degrees Celsius melting point, boiling point, and some of those organisms will survive that. So you need to have temperature a little higher, and by doing pressure cooking, you actually can achieve a higher temperature.

And so that's what it does, basically, and you have to run it for a few hours and then leave it cooler overnight. So it's basically a 24 hours process, and the tricky part is once you have sterilized, between the time you're opening up your sterilizer and you move it to a sterilized environment, which has basically fans with apofilters

that will push it there, and then you have gloves and you have cleaned everything, then you have a risk of contamination. So all of these processes have to be very, very meticulous, and you cannot just fuck around.

Otherwise, the first batch I've done, I didn't, I was not as rigorous with my setup, and I ended up losing half of the bags I've made to a penicillin, or actually there was a few, there were black molds, I don't know what it was.

But once it's in there, you just have to throw everything away. The nice part though, just to finish on that, is that whatever you throw away, you can compost it. So all those bags I've made, once they kind of have a life span, so you can do what they call flushes or flushes, you let the mushroom grow, then you carry it,

then you let it grow again. So you can do up to three flushes before it's not that interesting to keep those bags, and then you can recycle those bags to the compost, and they will, hopefully maybe you bring more mushrooms in your compost, who knows?

- But here, like, if you get those flushes, it's amazing how much grows, because, oh my God, like, I couldn't believe my eyes and it's all that, the first flush is just incredible. - Yeah, it's so rewarding, right?

And then, you know, you don't believe, you made it yourself, but you did. So in the end, you know, my regimen at home, it's, my diet has changed to a lot of mushrooms, a lot of tomatoes, a lot of peppers, and that's it, we're very happy about it.

- That's so nice to have something that you produced yourself, where you can take pride in it, and you know where it's come from, you know how it's been made. I've done it on a very small scale, not with mushrooms, but with other produce, and it somehow tastes better, I don't know why.

Maybe it's just in my head, but, you know, I think maybe it's just like a pride thing, and knowing where it's come from, but it definitely feels better to be eating that than just something you've bought in the supermarket.

- No, but it does taste better, because, look, when you get a produce in the supermarket, first of all, if you think about vegetables, most of the supermarket, there are these rules and regulations that when you, they buy vegetables, the vegetables have to be a certain size, certain color, certain shape,

and I mean, I've seen those, some of those charts, they were, I think, for bananas or cucumbers, I forgot, it goes to the point that they're measuring the curve angle of the produce, and if it's not respecting a certain chart, then they don't buy it.

So what do you think those producers, they do? They have to alter the way they produce. They have to use some kind of agents to make those vegetables look a certain way, feel a certain way, be of a certain kind, and of course, it's gonna affect the flavor and the taste and everything, and then it's not only that,

but then, you know, you don't know how long your produce has been on the shelf, and they always try to push the older ones first, and I mean, there are a lot of tricks that supermarkets will do so that your produce, for sure, is not gonna taste the same.

My only recommendation is if you cannot produce your own vegetables, or whatever it is, even animals, your meat, just try to buy it from local producer, from small shops, that the farms around you, I'm sure they have their own products, and they sell it, and you can actually get better products or sometimes a better deal.

What we do, we find a farm around us that has lambs, and we buy lamb meat from a local farmer, we have a established relationship with them, 'cause every year we get half a lamb, we freeze it, we put it downstairs, with a lot of lamb, I don't know how healthy is that for us, but we love it, the meat tastes great,

and that's fantastic, and we know where our produce comes from, when we know where our meat comes from, we make the lamb, I mean, how can it be better than that, you know, and it tastes delicious.

- Do you have a trade produce, like you said you have excess tomatoes that you're giving to all your neighbors and friends, have you ever sort of traded for either meat or something else you're not growing?

- I've traded the mushrooms for the, so like I said, I'm using the sodast, is what you use to substrate for growing the mushrooms, the base material, and in exchange for the sodast, instead of paying for it, I give mushrooms back.

So that's the first one. Eventually, I would try, I would like to turn that into a small scale operation, where I can sell it to restaurants around, in exchange of a nice meal, that's, you know, they cook my mushrooms, and I get something interesting in retail, but apart from that, we really haven't done any commercial trade, you know.

- What about you, Chino, if you get set up and you start growing, have you got plans to do something like that? - Yeah, it's like the first recommendation to establish kind of like a local citin mestadil, you know?

It's a common theme, like in our talks before, like knowing your local butcher, knowing your local farmer is definitely recommended. And I haven't looked into it yet, but once I start producing, I definitely want to get to know some other people and hopefully establish some kind of trade that is not using currency,

because like, especially like if you have, if you sell or buy every time there is a tax implied, but how can you tax something if you trade mushrooms or substrate, for example? You cannot put a number in this as impossible to tax.

- Mm, that's wrong. But that's where, you know, the number is, it's not really the number, it's the level of comfort between people, that's the better principle is this, you know? You are happy with what I give you and I'm happy with what you're giving me.

And that's it, you know, there is no need for anything extra. - Exactly. - What about you Max? - What about me growing anything? - Yeah. - When I had my house, which I recently sold for Sats, I did have a garden with, I think we had six vegetable patches.

I built them out of railway sleepers, so I had, I think they were like eight foot by four foot each one and it was three sleepers up. And then I had like copper tape around the top because I was told that that was going to be helpful against the slugs, which was wrong, it didn't help at all.

I grew beetroot, I had a lot of different herbs and bits and pieces, I had lettuce but that all got eaten, I had some green beans, what else did I grow in there? I actually grew like mainly beetroots, I got really obsessed with beetroots and they were like one of the only things that weren't getting eaten.

And then like mint for like pims in the summer and stuff like that and a few bits like that. I mean, it certainly wasn't enough for me to feed even just myself really, but it was a lot of fun.

And I used actually mushroom compost, which seemed to be amazing for growing everything. I had two tons of it delivered to the front of the house, which I then had to take out by hand down the little side alley and then fill the things.

It took me about two weeks to build everything and get everything set up. But yeah, it was enjoyable, but I'd like to do something bigger scale in the future. I'd like to give it another go.

Right now though, I'm in a flat and just I'm afraid to say going to the supermarket and plastic covered nonsense at the moment. - Well, if you ever happen to have to deal with slugs again in your future, I have a trick for you.

- Go on, what's the trick? - You feed them beer. - Ah, I tried this. Yes, they enjoyed it very much, but they still kept coming. Yeah, it's exactly what I did. So I had the copper on the top and then I had, on each corner, a thing with beer, like a little glass with beer, and it would always be full of slugs,

but they still decided to eat everything. So what they did is they went across gravel, about six, seven foot of gravel, then up three railway sleepers, had the beer, and then the rest of them then carried on and ate all of my lettuce.

But I was basically like not far at all from water. So I think I had more slugs and snails maybe than most people would, but yeah, they destroyed everything. - All right, you had some determined slugs and definitely were in the New York City of select for sure.

(both laughing) - Yeah, it was. Someone said to me as well, ducks yesterday. - Yeah, exactly. There is a common saying in permaculture is, you don't have a slug problem, you have a duck deficiency problem.

(both laughing) - I like that. - Ah, so once you're old setup, I hope we can be able to come and meet you in person. - Yeah, I would love that. - Yeah, that would be awesome. - Are you building an open mesh there?

- What do you mean by open? - I mean, it's open to everyone to come by. - Oh yeah, of course, like if you are visitors in your invited guests, yes, of course. - That's great. - There won't be vaults, by the way.

(both laughing) Trying more to blend into the environment. - I think that's the smart way, isn't it? Blend in and work together with other plebs, that's the way forward. - Yeah. - Mm-hmm.

But you know, there's this one thing I, we already talked about this privately, Max. I was looking into who can install some solar panels for me, or the whole solar system, let's be precise.

And I found that I have this hurdle to overcome trusting other Bitcoiners, because if I announce myself as a Bitcoiner, there is, of course, the risk if somebody else understands Bitcoin, like I might put myself into risk, putting a target on my back.

So this is something we might also want to discuss and like how to build a national, like this chain of trust, because all I might have needed, like I was talking to some Bitcoiners, but they were so random, like there was no relationship, not even through two corners, like two other people.

So I just couldn't find myself trusting them. I didn't want to meet them or disclose my location. - That's a good point. It's a difficult thing to fix that though, other than, I think when we spoke about it, all we sort of came up with is, well, have some, have someone who is one hop away from someone you trust,

and then there's some accountability on them. So like, for example, like, if you said to me, old you know someone, and then I suggest someone, and they rob you, that it's bad on me, and I'd only send someone to you that I fully trust myself, but other than that, I think it's really difficult problems to solve.

- Yeah. - Yeah, I think this one hop is all that was needed to be able to trust somebody. Like completely random claps, no, sorry. I need at least some common link that I can refer to. - Yeah, you have to be within the dumbbell number.

- Yeah, exactly that. Or you learn to do that bit yourself. I know that doesn't solve the problem for everything, but have you considered fitting them yourself? - I did. Like, actually it was the first thing I was doing, like looking into all the parts and how to put them together.

So it's a good thing because I now know exactly what I want and how to communicate to the other person like, okay, I'm expecting 24 walls, this and this many kilowatts, that potency and everything.

So the reason I'm not doing it myself yet is because in Europe, we have the subsidy to, if you want to have your solar panels installed, you can get like up to 35 or 50% even if you want.

And I know like, yes, it's depending on the state and giving away money, but it's out there. I think not using it would be the wrong decision. So I would like to save some money on that, but they require you to have official quote by a professional.

So if I can save a few thousand euros by just hiring somebody, then this is the first thing I would like to try. If I really cannot find because this is currently, this is currently a huge problem, I think because of the energy crisis that's happening, many people want to go solar now.

So I'm in contact with one company and they are telling me that they are overrun by people asking for having the solar panels installed. - In these sorts of situations, it seems to make sense that you would pay in fear and take advantage other than the supply chain issues, but the way I'd look at that is yes,

we want to run as much as we can through other plebs and on Bitcoin, but I would look at that as effectively stacking because you're not spending your Bitcoin, you're spending your dirty, dirty fear and you're getting a subsidy, which yes, okay, maybe it's stupid, these subsidies in a lot of ways,

but you might as well take advantage of it and allow yourself more money to hold more Bitcoin and long term, that's probably gonna be a better decision. So maybe it's just like 50, 60, 70% of the stuff you can have done by other plebs and done on Bitcoin, but the things that make sense to pay for in fear, look at it as a stack.

- Yeah, it's exactly how I see it. It's so frustrating, like having this fiat money saved just to be ready to pay the professional for installing it and of course the material, and I cannot allocate it to Bitcoin because we need to have the safe buffer for whatever comes with the house.

I mean, if somebody is listening and thinking about buying land, okay, maybe now the situation is different, like Bitcoin is worth a lot, maybe you have stacked instead of buying land, but I would say I made the mistake of acquiring the land when Bitcoin was at 3,000 euros, like after the big crash, not the one in March last year,

but the one in 2018, first when I got the land and thinking about this, like if I had stacked Bitcoin instead of buying the land, maybe I would have been better off by now. You know, the opportunity happened at that moment, you know?

- It did, it did. I'm not regretting it that much and to be honest, like I don't think I would have stacked this much money in Bitcoin right away. I was not that convinced back then. - Well, the one thing that's true about what you say is that you always need a buffer with the house, with the land, there is so many unknowns that happen.

I mean, look, within the few years I'm here, apart from the tree that fell on my face, we had a tree that fell on the house as well. And this is the kind of things that you cannot prepare for.

I mean, you can imagine that some of these things may happen, but you always think it will never, you know? And sure enough, you end up doing a lot of surprises. And always, if you keep everything in Bitcoin and you have to take it out, it's really painful.

So you always need some kind of buffer, still. - Yeah, you've got to have something on the side. Although I hear, Dim, you're responsible for this latest bull run. Apparently you scared a bear away quite recently and that kicked it all off.

Is that true? - Yeah, sorry, I won't do it again, guys. It was the story there then. - No, I thought you were joking, man. Did I... - I heard a bear came onto your land. Is that right? - Oh, we had many, yeah, we have many bears.

We have, last, within last year, we had like maybe three or four separate visits. One of them was a whole family of... - Wow. - A motor and 14 acres. And you know, part of the land around the house, it's a fencing area for the dogs, I have three dogs.

And at night, you know, we still have to have them out without, I mean, to worry that they run away. So it's great to have that fencing area. But I was in my office one morning and I see from the windows that fencing area.

And there is this family of bears that just go around the fencing area and they stop in front of my window. And one of them turns around and starts sniffing and puts his two paws, front paws on the top of the fence and starts climbing it.

- Oh my God. - And so, you know, very curious bear. But the mother just turned around and kind of tapped him on the shelf there. I don't know, and basically she growled him and he came back and they left.

But, you know, so this is the kind of story. My wife, she was walking down the driveway with Bowie, my dog, and she was on her phone just not looking at paying attention. And she stops typing on the phone.

And certainly she leaves her head. And sure enough, a bear, a bear on the driveway in front of her, you know, maybe like, you know, maybe 10 meters from her. And Bowie, my dog, we're supposed to be a watchdog just, you know, stare at the dog.

'Cause very casually, they're not even barked, nothing. And so she was very careful to just slowly, but surely leave and go back to the house and the bear just minded his own business and kept going.

You know, we only have black bears here. So it's not that dangerous that if it was grisly as yet, we would be a little bit more worried. But the black bears are friendly creatures, except, you know, a mother that will always defend her cubs, for sure, but otherwise, you know that.

I'm more worried what we have that is more dangerous. We have bobcats, they are very aggressive creatures. We have, we have pumas, although I've never really seen one near the house. And the most scared, we have coyotes, but the one animal that apparently have to be very worried about that we keep hearing at night

that sounds like somebody's getting strangled, it's fish or cat. Have you ever heard of that, fish or cat? - No, no, I've never heard of one. - Me neither until last year, when it was... - They look cute.

- They are apparently very fierce creatures, kind of like honey bijas, interestingly enough. And they don't care and they're gonna attack everything that they have inside. So we have those guys, but apart from that, you know, we just have a lot of lovely creatures around.

- That's incredible to be surrounded with those sort of creatures. What a privilege to see a family of bears come through on your property. That must have been incredible. - Yeah, yeah, those kind of bears I can deal with.

(laughing) - Yeah, I love being in nature. Like it completely changes my mood when I see animals and when I'm close to them. It just makes me feel, maybe I wouldn't be so relaxed with a bear right in front of me, but just to be surrounded and generally be around different creatures and be in nature, completely changes my outlook on life.

I hate being in the city. It changes the way that I live my life, I think I would love to be seeing the things that you're seeing. - Well, what you did, are you planning to go back to a rural area or you have to stay in the city for now?

- Yeah, I will be at some point. It's just not possible for me right now. The plan is to buy some land, but I want a fairly decent size bit of land. So I sold my house about, when was it?

I think it was in like June in that sort of, in that dip I stacked hard and I'm just waiting now for the right opportunity to buy the right bit of land. The problem I have is partly what you and Chino have just said about opportunity cost of buying something where I'd have to be 100% sure that it's the right place.

I almost pulled the trigger on buying something instead of stacking, but with everything that's been going on with Corona and the way that the government's behaving, I am sort of loosely considering speaking to Casey the Russian or someone like that and potentially just getting the fuck out of the country,

but I haven't made my decision yet. So I need to be sure where I want to live 'cause I don't want to do it twice. I know how much incredibly hard work it's going to be to set something up.

So I don't want to do it twice. - Yeah, it's hard to move really hard. - You know, there might be the compromise. Maybe you can settle for Isle of Man. I remember Ben was talking to us about that he might consider it there and it's very close to you.

- It is, a few people have been chilling. There's so many British Bitcoiners that are moving there and there's a lot going for it. Like it's smaller government. There's no speed limits at all there.

They do the Isle of Man TT there. It's not that far away. It's really good for taxes and stuff like that. My only thing is like, it's quite cold and I'd love to be somewhere warm. So I do have this kind of dream of being able to grow my fruits and bits and pieces and sit outside in the sunshine in the morning,

which I wouldn't be doing there. So I'm not a hundred percent sold yet, but it's definitely an option. - Well, just sit in the middle of your mining rate. You will always be hot. (laughing) - That's a good point actually.

Have a little light and just sit there in the heat, a little deck chair and a cocktail. - That's the one thing I always wanted to, you know, I started giving some thoughts about it, but didn't really pursue that 'cause I don't really mine anything here.

But recycling the heat from mining is really a fascinating topic. There's so much that can be done and talking about energy efficiency and how we can reuse that energy is very interesting.

- If you're somewhere cold, then definitely it makes a lot of sense. - Yeah. - Yeah, I mean, especially if you can pick up the rigs at a decent cost and if your electricity costs aren't ridiculous, what are they like where you are?

Have you got really high energy costs or are they pretty cheap? - No, I mean, it's decent. I mean, you know, I'm in the US or it's not somewhere. I'm not in an area where mining really makes sense at those levels, but, you know, there is,

for instance, like, looking at mushrooms in a sterilizing process, I've seen those auto cleaves that are actually operating on different kinds of energies, on recyclable energies. Why not try to convert the energy into something where you need to produce heat for something else?

I'm not sure really to what extent you can do it efficiently and at what scale, but there is definitely a study to be done on that rigor.

In many ways, there needs to be a loop that completes the use of whatever you do with Bitcoin. That's where, as a Bitcoin, you're satisfied, right? You don't waste and you make good use of everything you do.

So, same with permaculture. So how can this be applied to other processes like mining? I don't know, man. Or vertical farming or, you know, pumping heat into greenhouses or, yeah, there's so much that can be done with it.

I find with a lot of this stuff, though, it's like, there's not anything that you can just get off the shelf. Like, you'd have to create something yourself, put a lot of thought and time into it and retrofitting probably wouldn't be an option, but if you're building somewhere and you've got the time and the resources

to think about, well, how am I gonna heat my water systems? How am I gonna heat the air? What am I gonna do with heating greenhouses and stuff like that? If you're doing it from scratch, it would make a lot of sense, maybe, rather than fitting in boilers and heating systems and stuff like that.

Even if your energy costs aren't really, really cheap, like, even if they're semi-reasonable, it would make a lot of sense. And you've got your KYC free Bitcoin, which has more value than it would otherwise.

So it's definitely something I'd like to explore, but the issue we have here in the UK, it's cold a lot of the time, but the energy costs are absolutely ridiculous. So there'll be, like, double or triple probably what you'll be paying in the United States.

Like, if it's anywhere between four to 12 or 15 cents in the United States, we're paying probably 18P, so whatever that is, 25 cents, it's a lot. Yeah, it has to make sense for you, wherever you are, for sure.

But, you know, all of these also is bound to change because of the way, you know, if Bitcoin becomes really the hyper-iconized world, the energy sector will adapt to accommodate for mining and Bitcoin.

So all of these costs will probably change over time and we won't be as subject to the price of energy where we live because, first of all, I think we will be able to be much more mobile in the way we mine.

We might not be able to be as dependent of the location itself but depending on the group in the area, you know, because there might be also more collectivities in terms of, right now it's only happening in the metallors but it could also happen physically where groups of people are coming together in the same area

to actually mine together at a more cost-effective setup. So I don't know, you know, there might be a lot of solutions over time where regardless of where you are, you will be able to mine efficiently, I don't know.

But for now, yes, it seems like we are bound to the rules and the cost of our respective areas. - Definitely. Well, I'm sure someone who's listening to this will reach out with some sort of clever designs and, yeah, if anyone's been thinking about this, please either join the Mestradell group

or send something to any of us three who are on here and I look forward to eventually getting my land and joining the big boys table and learning and doing what you guys are doing. It's been fascinating to learn a little bit more and, yeah, I really appreciate you guys joining me.

If there's not anything else you wanted to particularly cover that we haven't, then I think it's probably a good place to wrap it up but, dim, anytime you want to join in the Mestradell conversation is just open invite.

It's always a pleasure speaking to you. - It was a pleasure, guys. Thank you so much, Max, for having me every time it's fun. I hope we do that again. And Zeno, it's cool because it was the first time we actually get to do this live, right?

- Yes, it's so weird like we know each other for more than a year but I think as the first time we actually spoke to each other. So, appreciate the opportunity finally. - Well, yeah, take care, have a good day.

Watch those bears and we'll speak soon. - All right, bye. - Take care.