MK Ungovernable | What Do You Reckon?

For years, Max and I have had many fascinating conversations, often beginning with the burning question, what do you reckon? Those conversations now take the form of an ungovernable show of the same name, a show in which we'll discuss history, intrigue, health, collapse, spirituality, the weird and the unexplained.

Whatever stone we wish to turn over, we'll turn it and examine its hidden underbelly, sometimes enlightening, sometimes gruesome. We'll talk it out in the same way we always have,

except that rather than calling from a van or halfway up a telegraph pole, we'll be recording in a studio and inviting you to listen in. We're still on the ungovernable feed, but this is a new and distinct show, separate from the Freedom Tech topics covered on Freedom Tech Friday, the Bitcoin brief, and the ConFab.

What do you reckon doesn't currently have a sponsor? We're looking for sponsors that belong alongside these conversations and share the ungovernable ethos. Until we find the right fit, this show is supported by you.

If you find value in these episodes, give some value back. Boost or stream Sats through your podcasting two point o app, send Monero, share the show, recommend it to someone who might enjoy the conversation, suggest a topic, or help us grow in whatever way you can.

Value for value. Before we begin, we want to give a nod of appreciation to K Wallet, Foundation, and Mining Box, who we're proud to partner with for our Freedom Tech shows. We'd also like to thank LinCoin Mining, Altair Tech dot I o, and uncle Chet on behalf of Lake Satoshi for supporting Pleb Miner Monthly and the PMM shows.

While these partners support our other work, what do you reckon? Is not currently sponsored by them. We hope you enjoy these new shows and that they encourage you to question everything with boldness and stay ungovernable.

And now, ungovernable presents What Do You Reckon? What Do Reckon? How are we gonna do it? Here This is 54, 321.

What do you reckon? What do you reckon? Fuck me. What's wrong with that one? I'll tell you what. I can just sliderize it, can't I? So that we just set it right time. What I said, We that we can just I think we did this one time, and we did I just set it five times, and you said it five times, and you put the one that you like. Alright.

Okay. What do you reckon? You say you're five first, and then I'll try to remember that and, like, copy your cadence. Okay. What do you reckon? What do you reckon?

Hey, What do you reckon? Hey, mate. What do you reckon? Do I have to say, hey, mate? Do what you want. I don't say that. I'm an American. You say, hey, ma'am. Hey, dude. Hey, dude. Hey, man. Hey, bro. Alright. Here's my what do you reckons.

What do you reckon? What do you reckon? What do you reckon? What do you reckon? What do you reckon? Do Hello, you

John. Hello, mate. I was gonna say it's been a while. Actually, it hasn't been a while. It's been one week. It's been one week. Yeah. One week since my last confession. My mic had switched to my laptop mic, and we recorded for, like, three and a half hours.

Yeah. And, it's gone in the bin. So sorry about that. That's the dedication that we have to our audience. If it's not good enough Mhmm. We can it. In the can, start fresh. That's right. Could you hear us? Yes.

Was it good enough quality for you, our beloved audience? No. No way. You expect nothing but the best. Exactly. Any of you who have been around for a while, expect the best. Any of you who are new, because this is a new topic or series of topics,

you can expect greatness from us. Just tell you that. Mhmm. And if you have been around for a while, you are used to us talking about mining and the mesh to Dell and what else do we talk about mainly? Statistics.

Everything, really. Hardware costs. A lot of mining stuff in there, really, wasn't it? Mhmm. A lot of Bitcoin mining things for our new audience listeners because we talk about Bitcoin a lot on Ungovernable Misfits.

But we also go down many different rabbit holes, freedom, and sovereignty, and you name it. We'll talk about it. So we wanna talk about it. We do. This is a new show. We're gonna be covering all sorts of, I think, still kind of freedom related stuff, isn't it? But Sure.

Much less tech, much more the type of conversations that you and I would have just on the phone, like we used to have in the good old days when Yeah. I'd be driving for hours and hours and hours, and we'd get time to catch up. And quite often, the call would start with, hey, mate. What do you reckon about?

And then it'd be some obscure thing which we'd talk about for a few hours. And I just happen to have some sort of background for whatever it is that you ask me. It's a wise, sage like, if you will. Mhmm. For me, the inspiration for the show was we have been playing with doing

a show outside of the normal topics of of this network for a while. Mhmm. And I asked a little Belgian friend of ours, what is it that you like about the shows that we do? Forget about the topic is. What's your favorite thing about the show? And he said, well, it's like I'm in a bar.

My friends are talking, and I'm listening, and I'm not talking. And that's my favorite part about the show. Oh, that's nice. So it's just like we're in a bar together Mhmm. And you, the audience, our friends, are here listening to us yap. I like that. I like that too.

The sorts of things that we'd be talking about in this bar or usually my van and your van, actually, that was normally where the conversations would take place, was a question around a subject that I thought or half knew that you'd done some research on. I always reached out to you on these type of topics because

although we're surrounded by a lot of smart people, we're not necessarily surrounded by a lot of people who will do the research fully before opening their mouths. They're very happy to just talk and have strong opinions without necessarily always going that deep. And what I've always appreciated with you is

you don't really wanna say anything unless you're very confident in it. Yeah. For the types of things that we're gonna cover, that's really important. And we talked about on the, like, three and a half hour conversation that we went into the other day, how important it is with these types of conversations not to

be easily labeled as just the conspiracy theorist Mhmm. Yeah. Who spouts something off to get a reaction, and then you can't really back it up, it makes everything else fall apart

even though there is actually often validity to what you're talking about. If you come out with a bombastic statement followed by no real evidence to prove that, People just lose interest, and so that's what I really wanna achieve with these shows is there is some crazy shit that's provable in the world.

Mhmm. Unbelievable stuff that we can talk about. We don't even have to veer off into the conspiracy stuff where it's not provable. We can talk about real historical events that opens the door to these conversations and stops friends and family from just

closing the door on these conversations. And I think Mhmm. If I could go back in time and the reason, like, it does actually matter, it's not just about being right. It does actually matter because if I wasn't so opinionated and sharp and to the point in the COVID times, I might have had a better chance

of stopping people from doing silly things because they might have taken my points more seriously. Mhmm. And that has real life consequences. Like, my brother-in-law is on medication for the rest of his life and is very sick, And he has a little girl, and my sister has to deal with the problems

every day. And he's in pain every day. It's not like, oh, he didn't listen to me and because I'm so smart and this and that. It's like Yeah. I could have done and should have done a better job of explaining my case, and I didn't.

I want us all to be prepared for the future that when we lay these things out, people don't go, oh, the last 10 things he's talked about have been nonsense. I want him to say, he's always quite measured,

and there is evidence to support his beliefs. So I will listen to the next thing. I want in the show. I want to be fact based. Mhmm. But we're still going to have fun with it too. Oh, gotcha. And despite the facts, I may have some fun theories around the facts, but we're always gonna we're always gonna circle back to the facts Mhmm.

And keep it straight up with you. Here are the facts. Here's what I think. Here's the facts again. We have chosen mind control throughout the ages. Great topic. I think so. With a hyper focus on a mind control buzzword that people use all the time, and that's MK Ultra.

So what I want to do is talk to you about the history of of mind control and religions and cults, and then lay out for you the the actual historical facts of MK Ultra, what that program was, who was behind it. There's lots of fun things to talk about there. We're not just gonna say, 1953,

MK Ultra was created by the CIA, and this doctor said he got we're yeah. We're gonna go over the facts and whatnot, but we're gonna have fun with it. Yeah. And those programs with a heavy focus on LSD and how LSD was released into the world and what that caused in the the nineteen sixties and the hippie movement

and how that moved on to, other mind control operations that weren't so obvious, weren't just scary scientists in a lab coat. They were more, innocuous. They were more spread out throughout society with nine eleven and COVID and maybe some, simple advice from Max and I on how to avoid getting swept up in these

organized and unorganized mind control operations. I've been guilty of it. I have wasted much time and energy in the past fighting things that didn't need to be fought. Mhmm. Well, hopefully, you'll be armed with the facts after Ungovernable presents MK Ungovernable.

Sex and violence. Sex. And violence. Sex They're great tools for mind control.

And

You mix the two together, that is perfection. I didn't do that. Violent sex. The exploited did that. Segment one, the ancient root of mind control. Plato's cave is the classic analogy for manufactured reality.

Prisoners are chained in a dark cave facing a blank wall. Behind them burns a fire. In between the fire and the prisoners, people walk carrying objects that cast shadows on the wall. The prisoners have never seen anything else, so they believe the shadows are reality.

One prisoner escapes, climbs into the sunlight, and sees the real world for the first time. When he returns to free the others, they reject him and cling to the shadows they know. The oldest and most effective form of mind control wasn't a drug or a machine.

It was the priest class. In the earliest civilizations, the priests positioned themselves as the only legitimate conduit between the people and the gods. They owned the rituals. They decided when the sacrifices happened, what the omens meant, which days were sacred, and which actions would bring divine favor or divine wrath.

Once you control the calendar, the ceremonies, and the interpretation of the divine will, you control the king, and you control the people. Kings ruled by force, priests ruled by belief, and belief is cheaper and more durable than force.

A king can be overthrown. A god is much harder to kill. So the priests elevated themselves first as intermediaries, then as living embodiments of the sacred. They wrote the origin myths. They decided which stories the people would hear about how the world began,

why the king had the right to rule, and what happened to those who stepped outside the approved order. This is the prototype for every later influence operation. Create a sacred narrative. Make yourself the indispensable interpreter of that narrative.

Use ritual and repetition to lock it in to the people's nervous system. Reward conformity, and punish doubt. Once the people accept that only you can speak for the gods, you no longer need to hold the sword. The people will police themselves and their rulers on your behalf.

That's not religion in the modern sense. That's the first systematic technology of mind control, and every later version, political, commercial, or intelligence, is just a variation on the same architecture.

Beautifully written. Thank you. I like that Plato's cave analogy. It's often used, but, there's a reason for that. I use it with the kids a lot. And and you can show them like a simple pictograph. And they go, oh, yeah. Okay. So who's the one controlling the the

shadow makers? Who's the one controlling the fire? Am I the person staring at the wall? Am I the person that's been brought out into the sunlight? Am I the person not being able to be convinced that this person went out into the sunlight and saw the real world?

As a parent, you're like, well, actually for now, I'm the one controlling the fire and characters there. So you see the shadows on the wall. I'm just trying to prepare you for when you go out into the sunlight that your eyes aren't too burned and you know how to handle it.

I'd say we're not always the one casting the shadows. The parents? It varies. More often than not, I am casting the shadows. Sometimes I'm in there watching the shadows. Sometimes I've come out to the light.

Woah, woah, I've been staring at them shadows a little bit too long, kids. Sorry about that. Yep. My oldest daughter will often say that, my dad says this, she's like your little clone. She just repeats everything that you say.

And I said, well well, good. That's that's okay. You know, but I I think she has come to these rationalizations through discussion that I've given her the tools to to not be an automaton, to not be a normie, to not be mind controlled by whatever is out there to influence her.

And so she'll often be the person that went out and saw the sun and wants to come back and tell her friends. Now she's she's going into her first year of high school. She's soon to be a freshman in high school. And up until now, when she goes and tells her friends like, hey.

This is actually this way. I'd I'd I'm not gonna even gonna bring up the topic because I don't know. Our our longtime audience listeners, I think you know where my mind is on on a lot of different topics.

So she'll go and tell her friends, hey, this is actually x y and z, not a b and c. Mhmm. And they're like, where do you where do you get that from? You know, in in our household, this is this is commonplace to have these conversations.

But when she presents it to her friends, when she goes back into Plato's cave,

they're they literally are not ready to hear it, not able to see it. They just won't take it in. And so I I feel bad for her that she's often the person coming back into Plato's cave and trying to describe to her to her friends that those shadows on the wall, they're they're false.

Yeah. Because it would be quite lonely in that cave, and she can't really avoid that cave. No. She can't. She's going to school. Mhmm. Even to some extent, like,

universities and your first jobs and things like that, you're not really choosing who you're interacting with. And it is just the general public. And, actually, it's not just the general public. Like, people who go to universities is a is not general public. It's a different demographic.

It's only once you have some control over your time and finances when you're older and have better formed opinions and slightly deeper pockets that you can just say,

no. I'm not fucking speaking to that cunt. I don't have to, and I won't. Yeah. I'm not gonna associate with them because I don't have to, and I won't. Not to be so black pilled, but you're imprisoned inside the institution with whoever whoever's there. It's actually really a painful thing to

have knowledge or perceive knowledge. Let's just say, like, we think we're right on certain subjects where we could be wrong. Sure. So Okay. To have the perceived knowledge and to see the world very clearly a certain way, but have to live in someone else's reality.

You either spend your whole time and energy fighting with people, make yourself very unpopular, waste a lot of energy, frustrate yourself. Oh, yeah. Or you learn to be at peace with the fact that people have different opinions and just to shut up.

But that's really hard. Like, I really, really struggled when I was younger, really badly. Like, it be it can actually make you quite depressed and angry and anxious. If I had a son or daughter of a similar age of yours who's, like, having to do this, I'd probably get them to learn how to, like, meditate,

how to be at peace with not speaking and not having to because it's really hard. It's actually a really hard thing to do to just, like, sit with noise that you believe to be completely wrong and actually, in a lot of senses, problematic and pushing the world in the wrong direction

to just sit there and understand, like, can't control this situation, and anything that I do here is a waste of my energy. I'm gonna keep that energy and push it towards something that's truly useful because that is a better thing to do. That's really hard.

I think a good tip to and this this goes to everybody in in our audience, but to resist I I don't wanna say do I'm gonna say the word mind control how many times in this episode. To resist the negative influence of others is to be firmly rooted in your beliefs and not to the point of ignorance.

Later on, we'll go over these these questions of of how to ensure that you're basically a free thinker and not susceptible to this kind of thing. But she is, and I know a lot of people like this, not not just my my teenage daughter.

She really believes the things that she believes. And so when she goes back into the cave to describe these things, she is susceptible to that, that that frustration

and that desire to try to exert energy to convince somebody else of something that you're absolutely sure of. That often works, that being assured that you are right, but it it does take energy.

And that frustration shows much like, you know, you trying to convince people of what we now know to be very much true during those COVID times, and your level of frustration was probably palpable to them. Well, like, what's what are you so worked up about?

And then focus more on the fact that you're angry rather than listening to your facts. Oh, yeah. I lost my shit quite a few times. Yeah. I I regret I regret my my actions. Before we move on as well, I just wanna say, like, one other thing.

Again, if I could go back in time, I would separate myself from negative people and spend as much time as I could around positive thinkers and doers because it is truly infectious. Mhmm. Like, I really notice it now, especially now that I'm cognizant of it.

I can spend too much time around a certain type of person, and it changes me. Mhmm. Yeah. That took a long time to work out. You know, like, people say, like, oh, you are the three or five people you spend the most time with or whatever.

And so it's a good way of judging yourself. Like, am I around positive, hardworking people who do more than they say, the things that they say and the morals that they say they uphold and everything about their character that they show to the outside world?

Are they really actually that? Mhmm. If you're spending time with people who aren't really actually bad, then you probably aren't either.

That is a form of mind control. If you're around a group of people at university, like, oh, man. The world's fucked. You know? Fuck this. Yeah. Everything's shit and I can't buy a house and do it. And you're like Not with that attitude.

What your parents would say. Not with that attitude, you can't Self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. Exactly. So before we move on to the next section, I just wanna wrap up here. Who were the people in the cave in ancient times that controlled the fire, made the shadows?

How did they do that? Well, as I said in the intro, that would be your priest class. If you imagine yourself in a early clan, well, the most powerful person physically was probably the leader of that clan.

Mhmm. And those who maybe have been more of the the thinkers and the intellectuals within that clan want to have influence. So how do they gain influence? Well, they try to influence the most powerful person in that clan, the proto king, and later on in organized civilizations.

You know, all the texts, they'll talk about great kings and giants. Well, who were the ones that created that myth? Who were the ones writing down the text? It wasn't the king. It would have been the priest class that wrote those things down about the king that created the mythos of the people, that created their origin story.

And how do you get people to buy into that origin story so that they know that the king is a god on this earth. You are the one pulling the puppet strings of that king, making you you the most powerful group of people in that group.

Well, that was a priest class. Well, how did they do that? That's what we want to try to figure out and recognize before we move on to the next the next topic. And so you have your, like, ordinary origin myth.

Hey, we came over from that town and we settled here, and we started hunting and gathering and, you know, getting food and having a community, having children. But you want a more glorious origin myth, don't you? That's that's kind of boring.

You want to know that the leader of your group is kind of godlike. So you replace that ordinary identity with with a group identity. Now you all share a a common story, and you demand loyalty around that common story.

There's a certain secrecy within that story, like maybe only some people can know it or be able to tell it if it's in some sort of oral tradition.

And you have created a new reality for yourselves as a group. And if you don't conform to that, if you don't submit to that cult's identity or their perception their priest class reception of reality, then you're shunned from the group.

There's a better technique to do that besides telling stories and peer pressure. I imagine that throughout time as you went into different places, you knew you experimented with different substances that you found out in the wild, you create hallucinogenics.

You create alcohol. You find mushrooms. You you find ayahuasca. And once the priest class gets the mechanisms of control on that, the dosing, when to do it, to have dance and stories and celebration and sex and perhaps rape, torture, violence associated with those altered states, it becomes a science to them.

And they know exactly how to dose, when to do it, perhaps coordinate it with celestial activities. Hey, we're gonna have a, we're gonna have the winter, solstice. We're gonna have the summer solstice.

So now let's have this joint ritual that we control that we say when it happens, and you're all gonna be drunk during it. And we will be suggestive during that time. And to me, this is just reading through stories and knowing things about ancient civilizations,

probably how a lot of these cults were cemented and the priest class were cemented in and their use of mind altering substances in order to do that. And it still happens today in different forms as well. You don't just have to go to the extremes that we're talking about.

If you stop drinking and you go and do it evening out with the same group that you did a month before when you were drinking Mhmm. You probably have the same sort of conversations. You do the same sort of thing. You go to the same sort of places, and your experience and your thoughts

are gonna be totally different. You're probably gonna think, what a lot of shit these cunts are talking about. Yeah. This is fucking stupid. These guys look like idiots, and I'm bored. Yeah. These guys look like idiots. They're overconfident.

You probably think, oh god. I'm embarrassed if I was that. But at the time when you're in that state and you're with that group, it's great, and it's great fun, and you have a really good time. So it just shows how the state change of you as a person and your character can happen with a seemingly normal

most people don't even really see it as a drug. You're with your group of friends. You've had a few drinks. You don't even have to be hammered. You're a very different person to what you are without.

Adrenaline, dopamine, you know, those are drugs that that we're kind of able to, get ourselves to produce. These ancient rituals, there's plenty of examples of actual drugs that they use. Course, alcohol, that makes the most sense.

We know that to be a very ancient chemical. I don't I don't know when we figured out, making alcohol, but they kinda said, the Egyptians made beer. I'd like to dive a little deeper as to when people started making alcohol. Was it really as simple as, like, eating a lot of rotten fruit

and then figuring out the fermentation process beyond that? Honestly, I'm not sure. They say monkeys do it. Eat rotten fruit, get drunk. So, well, if monkeys did it, then we did it too. But All sorts of drugs animals use as well. It's not like just humans use these drugs.

Well, they're smart. Yeah. Trial and error. Mhmm. Other things that we've done trial and error with that humans have discovered are mind altering drugs, and most likely the priest class used that would have been ergot, and we're gonna get into LSD. And that comes from the ergot fungus, which grows on rye when it's too late.

And in in, medieval times, they called it Saint Anthony's fire or holy fire, and it caused hallucinations, burning pain. It caused gangrene. I would try to figure out exactly, the dosing on that to avoid gangrene because you don't know where where you're gonna get gangrene. It could be on your hand, could be on your toe, could be

somewhere else. I don't I don't think the trip is worth it. No. I've never done it but I can't imagine it would be. The Eleusinian Mystery. So, this goes back to ancient ancient ancient Greece.

That would be a a multi day initiation where they, drank Kikyon. We should create an alcohol called Kikyon. Bring it back. And it probably contained the ergot alkaloids And you did the same thing. You had you had a a life changing vision and and you all shared this kind of death rebirth ritual.

The Vikings, they used, the fly agaric. I've actually read two different things. They may have used the red mushroom with the white spots. That's typically what they say the Viking berserkers took before battle. But people say it it might be something else.

I don't know. It it's called black henbane. It could be the other thing that caused the the berserker rage. And that was some kind of seeds that they used. Psilocybin mushrooms was called the flesh of the gods. The Aztec called that the flesh of the gods. Peyote.

Peyote. You need to go on a peyote troop. The mescaline cactus in Mesoamerica. Ayahuasca. On your show, you even had somebody that was big into doing ayahuasca journeys. Mhmm. So go back and type in ayahuasca into the ungovernable search and you may find that episode. I I don't know. Ayahuasca, we've done LSD.

Karen's been on a few times talking about some of his weird and wonderful trips and communication with entities through it and all sorts of things like that. Who again is a good person to talk about things like that because he's Mhmm. A little bit crazy in some ways, but he's also pretty measured and very smart.

So he's he's not a bullshitter. No. He really believes it. Yeah. Whether it's real or not real or whatever, his perception of reality. End of the world that doesn't happen. Yes. Scared my daughter.

Oh, no. Did she listen to that one? She did. Yeah. She did listen to that one.

Oh, she sat there on Halloween going, is this the end, daddy? That is the absolute truth. That's the absolute truth. Karen's gonna feel guilty now. Don't feel guilty. She just Do. Do feel guilty. I talked her down off the ledge.

The the last one I wanna mention is is, me as a a oil and gas man is the Oracle of Delphi where the the, oh, what do they call them? The oracles. The oracles. I just said it just there. With the oracles, they were the these young women,

and they would go into, like, caves and fissures in the earth and, you know, get into a trance and tell you the future. Well, they were probably just high on, like, methane or ethylene or something like that. The gases from the cave made them high.

You'd go in there with the oracle, and, you'd have this shared mind altering experience. So whatever they said, well, that's that's gospel because, the Oracle said so. So for a long time, we have been creating this shared narrative being guided by the priest class with the use of drugs and alcohol to help play us, to help separate

ourselves from our baser conscious self, to put us in a dream like state, to be more suggestive. And maybe the priest class before that time meant well.

It wasn't just about getting you to convince you that the king was your ruler and you must do what we say. Maybe they really were trying to guide people on a different spiritual plane. I don't know. I don't know them. Maybe. And also, if you are experimenting with these types of drugs, if you experience something,

many people will use a certain drugs, and they'll say, reality on this drug felt much more real than reality off it. Mhmm. And when I come back to normal life, it feels like this is computer generated

version of life. It's not real. It's not as real as I experienced. So then if they do experience that, you can understand why they would come back and say,

I've got some information that you guys need to understand. Mhmm. Here it is. Mhmm. It doesn't mean it's real. It doesn't mean it's right. It also doesn't mean it's not right. It just, you know, we might not understand it, but they're not necessarily always trying to control people's minds Yeah. For a bad purpose or a conniving

purpose. It it can be they're just trying to change their opinions to be similar to theirs because they believe it to be right. It's not control for a for a bad purpose. In my research in doing all this, I am thoroughly convinced that all the purveyors of mind control feel that they're doing it for the right reasons,

doing it for the greater good. No. They are convinced of this. No. I don't think so. I don't think any there may be a few characters in this story as we tell that probably died going, yeah, I did some fucked up shit and it was awesome.

But I think most of them are like, what do you I'm the good guy here. No. Well, I disagree. Okay. Okay. Overall, I'd say May maybe they were $49.51 on they were the good guy. I've done some bad stuff, but You can believe that you're controlling someone's mind or swaying their opinion for your own good.

Mhmm. We do that in all aspects of life all the time, like, salesman do it. It's best for me if I sell this car. Mhmm. It might not be the best car, and it might not be the best car for this person, and it might not be at the best price, and it might not have the best spec, but I'm gonna fucking sell it because it's the best thing for me.

And I'm gonna use mind control techniques. I'm gonna mirror them. I'm gonna do 50 other things that are gonna make sure that I get the results that I want. That is mind control. You are making someone make a decision that that isn't necessarily best for them. You know, not not full control, but influence.

Yeah. Like a strong influence. That's what I mean when I say people do use mind control, and it isn't the best for the person that they're doing it against.

Like, we do with our kids as well. You know? We're Sure. Yeah. We're we're molding. That's what we we started the episode out with. It's like we're molding our kids a certain way. We're controlling their movements and their mind

a certain way, pushing them in a certain direction. And sometimes they might say, fuck you. That's wrong. They're going the complete opposite direction. But daddy knows best. I think we all use mind control to some degree.

And usually, there's an element of selfishness involved. I I want to move on, but I can't I can't I can't let this one go. Alright. So let's take the kids. There's selfishness involved, but there's also knowing that you're right.

The assuredness that this is the right path. That's true. You know, like, the the say say the priest class. Let's let's compare the priest class to your stoner buddy in high school. It was like, man, you you gotta try this stuff, dude. You know, he's doing the peer pressure thing. He's not, like, necessarily a drug dealer,

but he thinks it's so great. And he just wants everybody to experience this thing. Like, when you go to a restaurant, you eat a good meal, and you go, oh, other people have to try this too. I want to share in this joy.

So perhaps some of the the priest class were dudes that just wanted to, like, share the vibe, man. I'll go along with that. Alright. Very well.

Segment two, origins of modern US programs. The tried and true civilization tested ancient toolkit, the priest class, the cults, the altar, the shared myths, the peer pressure that turns a group into its own police force.

And of course, the drugs, alcohol, Eleusinian mysteries, opium, milk of the poppy, Egyptian ritual cocktails of alcohol and psychedelics, mushrooms, peyote, ayahuasca, the fly agaric the Vikings may have used before battle, substances taken together under controlled conditions

to dissolve the ordinary self and fuse people into a single altered state. Sex, ritual, intoxication, and fear have been reliable levers. War itself is the greatest mind control system ever devised.

Drugs are optional, useful accelerants but not required. Fear, conquest, retribution, and the raw instinct for survival are enough. Once a population is convinced that its existence is at stake, ordinary moral limits dissolve.

People who would never harm a neighbor in peacetime will cheer the firebombing of cities. The same levers the ancient priests used, sacred narrative, group identity, ritual, peer pressure, gets scaled up to industrial size.

The story becomes us or them. The ritual becomes the mobilization, the propaganda, the shared sacrifice. The altered state is collective rage and collective terror. Two world wars in thirty years burned that circuitry deep into the Western mind.

The Cold War, the ultimate reflection of that burn. The scar was so profound that after 1945, a large part of the intelligence community concluded that anything, drugs, hypnosis, electroshock, sensory deprivation, assassination was justified if it might prevent the next existential catastrophe.

That is the direct line from the ancient blood altar to the laboratories of MK Ultra. The ancient patterns of mind control never disappeared. The priests simply put on a lab coat, received a security clearance, and got to work.

The priest put on a lab coat. You really like that one? I really do like that one. It's really good. So true.

Maybe they they forgot to wipe the blood off or put away their sacrificial knife, but they're there. Same guy. You know what jumps out to me from that and the conversation we just had where you're saying, they truly believe they're doing things for the right reasons.

I think that's something that we should be clear about as well rather than being, oh, we're on this side. We're on the side of freedom, and therefore, anything that's government or anything that's could be seen as anti freedom is definitely done for

the wrong reasons and that the people don't believe in what they're doing. I think it's quite easy to go down the route of, like, government evil, everything they do evil, controlled by puppeteers at the top.

Mhmm. It's a good plot for a movie. Yeah. It is. And, like, it's it's definitely not there are bad people in governments for reasons, you know, trying to do bad things. But I do think a lot of the time,

if you try and take yourself out of which is what I've been doing before this recording is, like, trying to take myself out of my own brain and saying, what would you have done Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. If you're in control of the military and if you're concerned about this attack or that attack or that your enemy

has this technology or that technology Mhmm. I can quickly see how, especially mind control, by whatever means, if they are brutal and morally wrong against a few people, I can see if you're like That's the the common good.

Yeah. I could, I mean, you you can see how people do it. I mean, I hope that would never be me, but I can see how I could think that way and the power that you wield from doing that. I think in the last time we we tried to record this, we were talking about, like, it's easier to shoot somebody than stab them up close.

Yeah. And it's easier to press a button that fires a missile and kills people that you'll never see. And it's even easier to push a narrative or a way of thinking, and you know that it's gonna push people in a certain direction or knock them off course slightly or bring about a desired outcome that isn't necessarily best for those people,

you don't even see it, and there's no blood on your hands in the literal sense. And so you could easily be like, well, this is gonna save millions. I mean, this is the right thing to do. Yeah. By not doing it, I'm actually

denying the world of peace. You know? I'm like, it's it's it's my job to do this as a man. You've developed yourself quite a god complex here. Yeah. It's easy to do. So you're the Western powers, and you've just won World War two, whatever winning means.

Japanese were nuclear bombed into submission twice. Berlin has been, invaded. Dresden firebombed. The German people are split pretty quickly into two different states. You discover the atrocities committed.

Well, I mean, we we can start with the the Bolsheviks, the atrocities they committed. I wish I was able to go deeper into Soviet mind control studies and torture and different biological programs,

but I don't know. I I guess I just need to find the right book. So suggest a good a good book for me there. I'd I'd like to dive in on that side and not focus so much on the West. The Nazis, you come to find out that they had a very robust biological experimentation arm that they froze people, put them in high altitude,

submerged them in seawater, and how they drown different besides, regular water, experimented with people in typhus and malaria and different mustard gases, nerve gas. They sterilized people.

They just had a robust biological and chemical experiment arm with people in in concentration camps and Eastern Europeans, whoever else wasn't part of the Aryan race. You sing about books.

The White Pill by Michael Malice is quite good. Okay. On the, like, the Russian go deep into the Bolsheviks? Yeah. The Russians, the Bolsheviks, some of the mind control stuff, like how people are treated, human experiments, all sorts of stuff.

And it's good for that because it's it's looking into how these things played out, not just in the West, but also it's good to see why the West did some of the things that they did rightly or wrongly.

Because when you come to learn the horrors I read that book and I was, like, feeling physically sick. It's fucking When you you read about the Hulladamore, it's it's more atrocious than anything you can imagine.

It's so fucked. It's like hell on earth. And so if you come to learn that and you're like, well, I don't want our country to go that way, you could see again how you would do anything to stop that.

The Japanese did a lot of similar stuff. You you'll always hear about the Nazis, but the Japanese were doing some crazy shit in in Manchuria under a unit called unit seven thirty one where they did the same thing. But but but, I don't know, like, little more sick.

Oh, really? If that's possible, yeah. Different biological experiments, vivisections without anesthetic, like just to see just to see how that worked. Give you, the plague or anthrax or, you know, cut your legs off and see how long it took you to die. Fucking hell. Give you a frostbite,

hypothermia with you know, put you in a pressure chamber and see how long it took to crush you to death. The Japanese really saw the Chinese as as sub humans. They had a score to settle. So we we win the wars, and our scientists find out what these units have been doing, and they're like, hey,

there's some valuable information there. Rocket. No. Hey, that's great. Why didn't we think of that? Yeah. Like, you're just gonna let this all go. Right? Like, hey, you're putting all these people on trial. Right? But what about the ones that aren't, like, so guilty?

What what what are we gonna do with them? Can't exactly bring a bunch of Japanese over here to The United States because, well, really, just put them all in internment camps recently,

and Mhmm. You're not gonna trust some greasy yellow slopes in your laboratory, are you? But the Germans, like, well, hey. United States is a pretty darn German country, you know, ethnically.

Bring the Germans over here. They learn English good. We could use their scientists. So that started operation paperclip, Where a lot of them were brought over to be rocket engineers, that that was a big deal. But they had a lot of experience in biological and chemical warfare.

They were figuring out ways to make a truth serum. That was a big thing that that the the intelligence agencies wanted was a truth serum. Mhmm. Before we get into MK Ultra and the LSD experiments, they wanted to just take in

and give you truth serum and you would tell us everything that you need to know. Now, the beginnings of that were once we went over into Germany, we started a place called in a place called Villa Schuster where they had the the rough boys.

Just basically capture people, beat the shit out of them, and see what information that you can get out of them. And then once we started to understand a little bit more nuance of how these different Nazi programs worked, we're like, hey, why don't we use drugs? Why don't we use suggestion? Why don't we use electroshock?

Why don't we use sleep deprivation? These these different techniques besides beating the shit out of somebody. Well, a truth serum, you could see how that would be seen as a much kinder thing to do than Mhmm. Torture.

You you know, you could see this. I see. I mean, if we can get a treat soon, that's a much cleaner way than, like, fucking peeling someone alive or whatever horrible shit they're gonna do. Yeah.

So with the first official movement from the rough boys and just beating the shit out of people was called Operation Mockingbird. No. Not Operation Mockingbird. Operation Mockingbird was the Is it Bluebird?

Well, yeah. It's it's Bluebird. But I wanna go over Operation Mockingbird real quick. People say Operation Mockingbird like that is the CIA directly telling journalists what to say and in newsrooms.

That's not official. Like, there were campaigns like that for forty, fifty years and probably still go on today. They they weren't officially called Operation Mockingbird.

Just as a side, I had learned that. And if I learned something, I have to share it with you. So it's called Operation Bluebird. Thank you very much, Max, for for remembering that. So that's what they they they went beyond just beating the shit out of you and hypnosis, drugs, like I said, the isolation, sleep deprivation,

special interrogation, they would call it. More more pointed way to do to do an interrogation. And that was later renamed operation artichoke. Max, what what would be the best way to torture you to give up the information that that I need to get from you? What would work on you?

Noise, probably. Noise and because you're autistic. It fucks me up, mate. Yeah. Have having kids when noise and light and just general overstimulation is, in many ways, like a daily torture. So I am getting much better. I'm I'm probably less susceptible than I was a few years ago. But, yeah, it would still probably still probably that,

like a flickering light and a repetitive noise, like a clock. I don't want giving all this away because someone get my seed words out of me just by putting a clock in my room. Well, that's why I ask. A ticking clock, I can't actually deal with. I have to physically remove the clock.

I can't stop thinking about time slipping through my fingers and knowing that that next click is another second gone. So I actually can't operate in that room anymore. So so it just put a load of clocks and light and noise. That'll fuck me right up. Okay. Good to know. About you?

Before I tell you what my my secrets are to get what you want out of me, the CIA has used that many times Really? The playing music. Yeah. There was the I think it was the president of The Philippines, Marcos.

Do you remember him? Nope. He weren't born. They did that to him. They like played Van Halen on on loop. Wish I could remember what exactly that they played, but but it worked. His wife was famous for having a lot of shoes. Imelda Marcos.

Okay. Having a lot of shoes. Isn't every wife famous for that? Every dictator's of a third world country's wife. Yeah. I think that's I didn't have shoes when I was a little girl. So now that I am the prime minister's wife, I want lots of shoes.

High heels because I'm short. During the, during World War two, Churchill had had, you know, found out that the Nazis were way ahead on on biological and chemical warfare. Doing what Churchill did during that time, he asked the Americans to, to help him out. So we did. We, set up a chemical and biological operation

at Fort Detrick, which I think is in Maryland. Maryland, Virginia, you know, everything's everything's in the government is is that way. When they decided that they're going to start to do a lot of this secret spy stuff with drugs and and torture and mind control, they decided to set it up at Fort Detrick.

I think they realized there were some limitations to Bluebird and artichoke or that the operation wasn't quite pointed exactly where they wanted it to point. And they had discovered in 1943.

1943 would have been when Albert Hoffman had published his research on LSD. So you had Albert Hoffman work for a pharmaceutical company in, Europe. I forgot that too. I think it was The Netherlands or or maybe Denmark. Doesn't doesn't really matter. Does does it at this point? It doesn't.

It doesn't. So in in, I do remember this. In 1938, it was called bicycle day. So he's experimenting on LSD. He was trying to see if if the, the rye ergot could help with, like, vascular disease, like open up the blood vessels.

And, he's experimenting on it, and he absorbs a little bit through his skin and rides his bicycle back home and trips his balls off and discovers, hey, that this has, a lot of hallucinogenic effects.

So that research gets out in, 1943 and it enters the intelligence and academic zones. And they're like, hey, we can use this for our operation bluebird and operation artichoke stuff. You know, we have, I don't know if sodium pentothal at the time was invented, but like I said, they were experimenting

in lots of different ways, lots of different drugs. They tried alcohol. Well, we know what alcohol does. They tried heroin. They said, you know, heroin's good and everything if you have an addict that really wants heroin.

Coke, it certainly had some uses, but they thought this new LSD could really be something. So you have the scientist named doctor Sidney Gottlieb. And Sidney Gottlieb, tell you a little bit about him, he's, like a Brooklyn born Jewish guy, very different from the rest of the CIA, which were all kind of Anglo white boys,

you know, Protestant white boys, Ivy League kind of guys. In here, have this this chemical scientist doctor Sidney Gottlieb, a Jew from New York. He's got two club feet. He's got a stutter. He doesn't exactly fit in with anybody else when he gets married to his his wife Margaret. They move to, like, a homestead,

and he has goats, and he makes yogurt, and he grows vegetables, and they don't have running water. And he's a lot like some early hippies homesteader guy. Even the hippie comparisons, he's kind of into, like, eastern spirituality kind of thinking. You know, he's he's a not not practicing, unpracticing Not what you'd expect. Jews.

His his wife came from, like, a missionary a Protestant missionary family. They used to go over India and do do missions there. So the these two people met and they just became, like, these spiritualists kind of people, which if you think about in the in the late forties and fifties,

that really wasn't so much a thing as it was like in the late fifties and into sixties. The Beatles hadn't gone to India. You know, the teachings of Helena Blavatsky and Theosophy hadn't made its way over here. You did have a little bit where you had Houdini

would try to, like, debunk these people that got out Ouija boards and and contact their their dead ancestors and ghosts. It's like it was a thing for a little bit. I don't like that shit. Ouija boards? I don't like that shit. I don't like that shit either. I don't like to be anywhere

near or associated to anyone who does any of that No. Witches and demons and Ouija and no. No. Thank you. That's that's that's not your grandma. That's a demon, bro. Hate to tell you. No. Well Thank you. As a side, Houdini was like, well, that's actually all bullshit. Let me prove it to you. He was big into debunking

those people. But anyways, I digress. Doctor Sidney Gottlieb, spiritual guy, totally didn't fit in with the rest of the CIA. Well, he heads up a lot of the the chemical division part of bluebird and artichoke and gets interested in LSD himself.

I think he got interested in LSD, like, outside of the CIA simply because he was one of these, like, hippie dippie free thinker homesteader kind of guys. So it kind of coalesced into this. Well, the CIA wants to set something up at Fort Detrick, and they wanted chemical operations.

He also create tons of poisons from sea urchins and clams, and they were gonna do all kinds of secret spy stuff. James Bond, he was like you from James Bond. He made all of the cool stuff, Exploding cigars, poison toothpaste.

Tell me the one about the the seashell, that's the best one.

Yeah. They were trying to kill Castro so they had come up with a number of different techniques to kill Castro and they were exploding cigar. That's not gonna work. He knows the cigars too well. Alright. A poison wet suit. When he puts the wet suit on, he's he's gonna be poisoned. Our

inside guy just actually gave him a new wet suit, so that's not gonna work. Alright. How about an exploding seashell? He's a he's an avid diver.

So let's make a seashell that's so interesting and cool that Castro will be compelled to pick it up. And when he picks it up, it's going to explode. So Sydney Gottlieb was head of the the technical services division that made all of that cool stuff.

He didn't just, just do LSD. He's a neat guy. I mean, I said this a lot in the in the previous recording. I'm gonna say it again. The the guy is kinda neat. Whether he's a a sick fuck or not, I don't know. The guy's kinda neat.

Am I am I bad? Does that make me bad? We can all be friends or think slightly fucked up people with clubbed feet are cool. He's not all bad, is he? Well, I'm I'm not gonna go that far. You wanna be his best friend?

I think I I think I'd wanna, like, go to dinner at his house. Mhmm. That seems like that. I would wanna go to dinner at his house not knowing all the fucked up shit that he did. I would like to spend time with some people who I think are a bit fucked up.

Mhmm. I'd like to have a drink or have a chat with people who've done bad shit, but they've also done interesting stuff. It doesn't mean I wanna be their friend, but it's I'd rather have a conversation with with Gottlieb than I would with, like, I don't know, the average university student. Oh, sure. Yeah.

Like, at least you're gonna learn it even if it's fucked up. Even the people that work with him, like in in the the technical services division where they were making the secret spy craft stuff. I I thought this was another interesting story

is that the show Get Smart or Mission Impossible will be on in the sixties and the CIA switchboard would be flooded with field officers who would call in and go, hey, I saw on this secret spy show that they had, you know, an exploding

bottle of champagne. Can you make that for me? And they would just get flooded, like, Monday morning with all of these calls asking if they could make the stuff. But the people that worked with him in that technical services division always said, like, he was the best boss.

He knew your birthday, you know, your wife's name, you know, he was just very personable. You could go to his desk anytime and he'd be eating some homemade yogurt that he made from goats that he milked on his homestead.

Just, I don't know. Interesting kind of guy. Anyway,

MK Ultra officially kicks off in '19 damn it, me with these dates. 1951, maybe. '51 or '53. How's that? That's good enough. Right? That's good enough. Let's say let's say it's 1953 because I think I think that makes more sense. We'll put it all in the show notes anyway. How about that? Very well. Alright. Yeah. So so Sydney Gottlieb,

our priest who has has put on a lab coat. His strategy with LSD was we can pretty much replace yourself with whatever we want while while you are in this suggestive state. There are many, many different sub projects involved in MK Ultra. There were a 149 sub projects across 80 institutions.

And these aren't, I don't know, some crazy insane asylum institution. These are universities, medical centers, prisons. Two of the most famous prisons were Atlanta Penitentiary and the Lexington Narcotics Farm, where they would experiment for suggestibility and control on the prisoners there in these two institutions.

And, you know, like with a narcotics farm, if you were a heroin addict, they would just say to you, hey, we'll give you heroin if you submit to these tests. And they were like, yeah, I I like heroin. I'll do it. Yeah. That's pretty much how it works with heroin and crack. It's like,

yeah, I'll do it. Well, I haven't told you what it is yet. No. I'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. But but it's gonna be yes. I I didn't even finish my sentence, buddy. This later got out into the ether because there were, like, semi famous people that were part of these experiments.

There's a, like, a two bit mobster guy in Boston named Whitey Bulger who had later said that, yeah, in Atlanta, I was part of those experiments and I and I nearly lost my mind that I was so high on on LSD.

I would have done anything that you told me to do. So it had effects. It was just you couldn't exactly control it. It it wasn't a catchall. Mhmm. So you might you might get somebody to do some fucked up shit, but you couldn't exactly control them.

It's a weird thing to take from someone. Your sense of self. It's like the most personal thing that you can take from someone because it literally is their personality, changing someone's thought patterns or memories.

I think that's why when people talk about MK Ultra and they talk about these things, it hits harder in a lot of ways than physical pain or torture. Yeah. Or it feels more sick and more twisted to remove people's memories and replace people's memories with things that are not true

because they're no longer even themselves. It's just such a fucked up your personality kind of is your soul. I know you're probably gonna have a different, like, way of thinking about that being a godly man. But, like Yeah. If I was trying trying to, like, think, like, oh, what would be my soul?

Like, I could come back as anybody. But if I still have my own thoughts and my own memories, then I'm me. People will reject some of the parts of history as conspiracy theory. Even if there's proof, even if there's evidence for it, people will quickly reject it because

they don't want it to be true. It's like, oh, I don't even want that to be out in the world.

Trying to convince someone that a government agency has operated on people and replaced memories and done some fucked up things like, oh, I don't wanna I don't wanna hear that because because then it's like, it's real. And then if they did it then, well, they could do it now, and they could do it to me.

And that's scary, so I don't wanna hear it. But, again, like, that's I think it is important even if we don't wanna hear certain things because it makes us feel uncomfortable. It's important to know it because if it has happened,

it is likely to happen again and likely is happening now. It might not be in the exact same way. It might be more sophisticated in some ways. It might have the goal might have changed in some ways, but to think that people aren't capable of removing parts of you who you really are Yeah. And replacing it with other parts

that's really them. It's like taking that bit of you and I'm replacing it with me or my thoughts or Yeah. A goal. Yeah. It's that's fucking scary. Absolutely. In in, like, five minutes, we'll talk about two of the most effective MK Ultra evil mad scientist guys and how they were able to remove self and replace self with actual

real results, they did it. But on a funner note, let's talk about mid Operation Midnight Climax. That is more fun. Certainly is is more fun. All you want is to be involved in operation midnight climax and your best friend to have club feet. Yeah. That's it. So up up right there there were like I had mentioned, there were a 149

different sub projects across 80 institutions for MK Ultra. One of these sub projects was called Midnight Climax, and that was ran by a, narcotics officer called George Hunter White. I wish I could remember all the things we said about George Hunter White in the previous in the previous recording.

But the one thing, and I'll say this again, that stood out for me was they called him, like, a fat blob of a man, a bald human bowling ball. And how big was this man? Like, did he look like Kingpin or the blob from X Men? No. He was five seven, two hundred and ten pounds.

This giant fat blob of a man.

He's literally, yay. Like, oh my god. I have besides being bald and not that short,

think of it a little too close to home here. Also, remember back then, people were a lot smaller. So two hundred pounds Yeah. Was probably pretty big then. He was a larger than life man. Yeah. And that that was said about about him. He was a narcotics officer

known for doing things like taking a sacred blood oath with a Chinese opium gang and betraying them because so he could bust the opium gang. He did, like, secret spycraft stuff in the Soviet Union.

He's said to have killed a Japanese man with his bare hands. He had one of the largest pornography collections in the world. All kinds of crazy s s and m's in the world. S and m stuff. He was into to high heels and boots. His wife was his second wife his first wife called him a fat, disgusting blob of a man.

Maybe she was a dominatrix. Maybe he liked being talked down to. His second wife was a, like, an official dominatrix. Okay. Before the mold was set, like, what you would know as a dominatrix today, that that was her. She's like the OG dominatrix, was George Hunter White's wife.

They would have crazy orgies. Was she an Asian persuasion as well? No. Sounds like this. No. I thought she was a white broad. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Was is it you are are you are you fantasizing right now? No.

Mean Was she Asian? Yeah. Pretty Asian. No.

I was just thinking because you were saying about, like, oh, we'd infiltrated these opium dens and Oh, yeah. That's and then killed the Japanese man. Yeah. I was just wondering, like, if he was over there and then he'd sort of, like, found this dominatrix. She's like, ah, you're a fat little bowling ball. Oh, I like that.

Well, he he was a submissive one. Mhmm. They they would have orgies. He's he's into leather. You know what I mean? Strap it on. I don't know. I didn't I didn't read that he was into that part.

Speculated. Keep it keep it to the facts. Yeah. Alright. You did say Oh, also, like, drink a bottle of gin. Mhmm. A bottle of gin with every meal? Fuck off. No one drinks a bottle of gin with every meal unless you have drink. White does.

With every meal. Hey. How big is the bowl? What they said, pal. Yeah. I'm I'm just thinking about this, and I'm thinking I know some some pretty heavy drinkers. A bottle of gin at a meal, even if you're a bowling ball of a man and even if you're an alcoholic, like, I don't know.

Hey, man. You like to live life to the fullest. Okay. Okay. We'll just say that that's fact,

but I'm gonna say that it's not a one liter or a seven fifty. I think that's gonna be like a it's gonna be like a a minibar size or, like what what are those what's the size? Is it 75 no. Not 75¢. What's the ones that, like, could go in your back pocket? Like a you know what I mean? Like a flask size. Yes.

Yeah. Whatever that is, I'll fully go with that with what he drank every meal. That. I don't think he was drinking from the minibar. Okay. Who knows? I'm sure the CIA would give him a blank check for whatever he wanted as far as the minibar is concerned. Yes.

Alley's early LSD tests were kind of done internally at the CIA. It got so bad with people fucking with people with LSD that they had a a CIA party and they told them, hey, guys, don't spike the punch bowl with LSD, please.

Like, we're at this as the fucking Christmas party. You guys keep dropping LSD to everybody. I mean, it it was, like, cool in in the academic circles and the government circles, even amongst these Anglo, WASPI, intelligence people from Ivy League colleges.

They were all trying LSD, taking it home to their wives. Professors were doing it. Everybody in this agency was experimenting on LSD. They were they were having fun with it. So you have these captive audiences of prisoners.

You have all these different sub projects. They wanted to be able to test this thing on men who would, like, potentially be in some sort of compromised spy situation. Like, alright. If we have a Soviet spy and,

we know where he's gonna be, let's send a girl there and give him some LSD, and then he's gonna become our spy or he's gonna spill beans. So they set up the sub the Midnight Climax sub project, and it was in a safe house initially in New York City and then in San Francisco.

And they got two rooms in this apartment and the one would be where these prostitutes and George Hunter White knows all the prostitutes because that's kind of one of the things that he does in being a narcotics officer. His prostitutes.

His prostitutes, yes. But if if you're any good narcotics officer, you know all the hookers because the hookers are gonna be like your your pathway into the busting the drug dealers. Mhmm. So he's he's deep in the the underworld. This is the perfect guy to do this kind of thing. He has no morals. He's a wacko.

He's a pervert. So why don't we put him in charge of this operation where he has prostitutes bring up Johns and they drug them with LSD? And then he sits in the opposite room on a portable toilet behind what they called x-ray glass, you know, a mirror, two way mirror Mhmm. And sits there drinking gin and watching the girls,

you know, compromise these men with LSD. And that's Operation Midnight Climax. This was fully endorsed by, Sydney Gottlieb himself. Like, he almost did this personally personal notes to to George Hunter White.

He would go there to the safe house. He'd screw, George Hunter White's wife. So Sydney Gottlieb, like, in some ways, you see, and I'm telling you that he's like this this eastern spiritual guy, and he's married, and he's got four kids, and he's like a really good employer,

knows everybody's birthday and your wife's birthday and and stuff like that. And he's he's milking goats and making yogurt and he's kind of working someone else's wife. He's also milking George Hunter White's wife. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. You like them boots? Oh, you like them boots? I'm not I'm not Asian, but I'll pretend for you, Sydney Gothrieb.

I like very much that he sits on a toilet while watching. I like that he had it from my memory anyway in in the book chaos, which was the reason for this conversation anyway. Like, I I read

through that, and I was just like It was, like, two two, three years ago. It was, yeah, it was two, three years ago. Then we had a conversation about it, then I've just reread it in preparation for this.

And the two things were, like I said, a, I was like, this is fucked up because messing with someone my someone's mind and personality is is really, really creepy. And the other thing that I particularly liked is just that this guy had a toilet installed

so that he could sit there and not have to leave to go and take a piss while he drank. I think it was martinis, they said. Like Oh. I think he was, like, drinking martinis while just sat on the toilet watching people fuck on LSD where they don't even know that they're on LSD. They've been drugged.

Like, it's such a weird thing to do with your evening. It's like, what should we do tonight? I don't know. Should we just put on Netflix and just relax? No. I I think I'm gonna have a portable toilet put into an office, and then I'm just gonna drink martinis on that toilet and then drug unknowing people

and get hookers involved and watch them trip out on LSD while they fuck. I just think that's just a better better evening. That's on the reckon? Yeah. Yeah. Hey. Hey, Frank. Give me another martini.

I'm sitting on the shitter. I'm gonna watch this guy. He's woah. Holy shit. This guy's high on fucking LSD. He's fucking a broad brainer. Give me two martinis as a matter of fact. This one's gonna take a while.

And what, like, what were they learning? Because didn't really go into the book into this in the book too much. Like, is there anything that was truly learned from this? Like No. No. I do it. I'll ask you be fucked harder. Or, like,

Like, what are you learning? Thing that can benefit me is is what I mean by operation midnight climax. Yeah. I think it's one of the things that convinced Sydney Gottlieb that this doesn't this doesn't really work in this application.

Right. And I another takeaway was they were like, you know what? Alcohol's like just as good at doing this. Mhmm. And another takeaway for them was guys talk after sex. So you could just have a hooker screw a guy's brains out and then talk to him and he'll probably tell you some stuff.

I don't know, mate. That sounds Or fallacy. That's true. That's that's a real thing that they they were like, alright. Yeah. Might as well just send hookers to get a guy drunk and screw his brains out and then talk to him because his wife probably doesn't talk to him. Boy, nags at him.

Yeah. So LSD was not useful in that application, but it was useful to take away yourself. And, like, that's something that it talks about in the book and that that they found a lot of success with was to, like, dematerialize structure. Identity thing at the same time.

Like, take out yourself, insert group identity. Yeah. And I feel like that's quite similar to some of the other, like, more popular drugs now, like the Ayahuasca's and things like that. Like, people stripping away their ego. Like, they're they're talking about, like, I'm stripping away my ego.

And I can imagine that that would be quite an interesting way to control someone. Like, how creepy was that how I just said that? Quite an interesting way to control someone. Laughed before you said Yeah. Like, I was just really leaning into this. I'm like, I'm gonna fucking do this. Yeah. But but yeah.

That's interesting. But, yeah, like, you if you strip away who they are, it's much easier than to, like, overwrite and rewrite once you've done that. And so I can see that's why LSD was so powerful and, like, how how and why that maybe was the drug of choice and maybe for a reason

that Manson used it and had such incredible control over the family. And whether he was being controlled by someone else or not, it's it's hard to exactly say. It seems very much like he was mixed up with a lot of the characters that we're talking about, and there was a lot of things that you can point towards us so to say. Far ahead.

I'm sorry. So don't don't don't turn the page. Okay. Stop stop trying to read ahead. Okay. Quit that. I can't help it. You know I can't read your You're obsessed with Manson. Well, it is pretty interesting.

Like Lots of people are obsessed with me, man. It is pretty interesting that someone has so quickly gained so much control over so many people Yeah. When these, like, expert types who are running these three letter agencies seem to have less success.

Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Alright. Keep in your pants. We got two we got two more guys to talk about. And before I proceed, who do you think who is more George Hunter White and who is more Sidney Gottlieb in this relationship?

Who is more George Hunter White? George Hunter White is the one who sits on the toilet and drinks martinis. That's you. That's me. Okay. Yeah. And you're Sydney Gottlieb? Yeah. And I like who screws my wife.

I think so. Okay. I think so and eats natural yogurt. Yeah. Yeah. Into it. And it's like a fat 200 pound bowling ball. I I think. I don't know. What do you think? Would you agree? Or Yeah.

Yeah. I just think that's yeah. I just thought it was an interesting question. Hey. Comment below on what you think. Who is worse than me Gottlieb, and who is more George Hunter White, Max or myself?

So the bad guys, the the, like, Hollywood mad scientist type, sub project 68, you and Cameron at the Allen Memorial Institute and McGill University in Montreal. This guy is the one that you see in the movies. You remember that movie, the the o a?

Not movie. The TV show, the o a. It was on Netflix for a while, and, it was kinda like artsy fartsy. The first season was good, but what they were doing was experimenting with, like, near death experience and, seeing what they can do with near death experiences.

And, everybody knows stranger things. So that's that's just imagine the scientists from those two Netflix TV shows, and you pretty much have the the template was created by, you and Cameron. I saw a lot of people talking about that stranger things was written based around

a government program of some kind in a village that was very similar, etcetera, etcetera. And I can't remember what the name of that program was. But that would be complete at this point conspiracy theory stuff because I have nothing to back it up. So I I I don't. It it didn't it didn't come across my transom.

I'll I'll see if I can if anyone's listening and and they can make that connection, let me know because it was just one of those things that I saw when I was like, I mean, I could definitely fucking believe it, but did no research, so we'll we'll just leave that there. But just leave the door open if if anyone knows last night.

Well, you and you and Cameron at Allen Memorial, Institute behind the, the group called Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology. What a lovely name. That's some it is so lovely. It's so lovely they they did massive electroshock therapies.

So we should do like the, you know, I'm gonna reach for a cigarette. I really wanna have a smoke. And then, oh, yeah. I'm not gonna have a smoke. I'm really gonna have a smoke. I'm like, alright.

I'm not gonna have a smoke anymore. That's normal electroshock therapy. This guy's doing 30 to 40 times that dose of electroshock. Putting it on your head, cranking it up, seeing what it does to you, see if he can take away yourself and and, repattern you.

Prolong drug induced sleep,

he would just bring you down to the point where you were an infant, where you couldn't fucking speak. Anything he can do to torture the living shit out of you. Playing a psychic driving that was playing continuous messages, like on a tape, sometimes like fifteen, sixteen hours a day for weeks at a time.

Whether you're in isolation or in the dark or starving or sedated, he would just say these things over and over again. Max Lovely. You're a fat, fat cunt. Max, you're a fat, fat cunt. You're a fat piece of shit.

Look at you, you fat piece of shit. And eventually, you start to believe it even though you're so fit and spry and good looking. Oh, yeah. So people knew that that, this was happening. This is not, the Canadian government was sued and they paid out to victims of this guy.

So once keeping with the show, this is all factual stuff that happened to real people. And there have been many, many movies, written about this kind of person. This this is your this is your arch villain, kind of guy, you and Cameron. Some of these people never were never right ever again as as you can imagine.

You know, they're not like lobotomy vegetables. Another thing that they they dismissed pretty quickly in all this stuff. I said, lobotomies, they don't work. That's we're not gonna do that. Not for their purposes?

No. But they are pretty neat. Going through the going through the eyeball and cut it up. Mhmm. See what happens. You might piss yourself. You might just be really boring.

Alright. My favorite mad scientist guy who actually goes into the next chapter, so you'll be excited. Subproject 43, Jollian West. Jollian West, interesting guy, like a air force colonel. I I I think he was a military man, like a clean-cut military guy.

He first comes on to the scene here, Max, you can go ahead and and take it from here. In 1954, an airman named Jimmy Shaver is accused of raping and murdering a three year old girl named Sherry Jo Horton at, like, Lackland Air Force Base. And I think you know the story pretty well.

Yeah. Well, it was one of the things that jumped out at me as particularly weird and unsettling.

The story goes that there was a military man with a wife and kids with no prior convictions, no records, no

no evidence to suggest that there was anything untoward with his behavior. Mhmm. No one could come up and say anything negative about him or the or this we could have seen this coming, like, at all.

And there was a parents who had gone into a cafe, left their young daughter. They a were roadside bar.

Oh, a roadside bar. And Yeah. They'd left the daughter in the in the car, and then the they go out to the car, and there's her underwear, like, hanging off the window of the car. And then they can't find her when police arrive.

This guy, I can't remember his name now, comes out from this gravel Jimmy Shaver. Jimmy Shaver comes out from a gravel pit, dazed, covered in blood, seems not drunk and hadn't been drinking, but, like, on something completely different to how he would normally be. Out to me too.

And, you know, that I have you been drinking? Is it? No. No. No. And had no memory of anything. I couldn't couldn't remember anything at all. And then they found the girl's body. I think she'd been raped and killed.

And then his story was I can't remember anything. I don't know what's happened. I don't know why I'm here. I have no memory of the girl. You know? Basically, just nothing. And then he gets a visit from, what's his name, Jolly in his cell.

And

after being left in there for however long the sort of not interview, but, like, interrogation is, we don't know if he was slipped anything, and we don't know the full story. But he came out saying, yes. I did it, and here's what I did, and here's why I did it.

And I did it because my cousin or or someone like His, yeah, sister or cousin or something like that. The someone in his family had abused him when he was a child or raped him when he was a child, but that was never looked into. There was no arrests made. There was no evidence to support those claims.

And this was just very quickly after Jolly West had gone in with no one else there and and pushing certain ideas. Like, I think there's a transcript, it was just like, do you remember, strangling the girl while she was wearing very suggestive cop interrogation techniques they use now.

Yeah. So it's not tell me what you remember. It's inserting memories. And so you have a guy with no reason to attack, no previous. Well, not I'm not saying that it it doesn't happen. But Sure. Sure. Sure. When you look into

Jolly West and what he was doing and how he was doing it, and then you line it up with the fact that he then goes and pays a visit to this person who, in that interview, after seeing him, after saying, I have no idea what happened. I didn't do anything. Like, he he seemed like he was on some sort of drug

to then completely change and go along with a certain story. And then immediately after that, when he goes to prison, and he's already put into prison, he says for for the rest of his sentence, I didn't do it.

Like, he he he again has no memory of whatever was till till till the day he he was executed. Yeah. Until the day he was executed. He he said, I didn't do it. So it it may be feel uncomfortable that one, like, say, given

what Jolly West was involved in to let that man into that cell and basically take someone's life from them. You can't prove that this guy wasn't thinking straight. You can't prove that this guy wouldn't have done it and that he that he, you know, that he wasn't drugged during the incident, that he wasn't drugged after the incident.

I can't prove any of that, but it just it it stinks, the whole story. You you think about the timing of it too. So MK Ultra started in '53. This is 1954.

So I I feel like he's kinda just like an early guy, like, yeah, don't worry about it, Sid. We're we're gonna we're gonna get out there and we're gonna experiment. We're gonna do stuff. You know, he had his own ideas too. They had they had toyed with hypnosis for quite some time in in the CIA.

They even toyed with, a a magician at one time. They had a magician come and and teach the CIA different techniques. And it was always very inconclusive as to whether you can get somebody with hypnosis.

The the this like, the psych ice in society was sure you can because the Manchurian candidate book and movie had come out and, you know, show a a playing card, and you can get somebody to assassinate the president. So a lot of people thought that hypnosis was a thing.

A lot of the CIA did not. Jolley and West did, but he thought if I use hypnosis and I use sodium pentol and I I use suggestion and I use LSD that I can get what I want out of these people. And and that case just makes me think like, yeah, he he was in there, doping him up with sodium pentothal and and trying hypnosis techniques

and getting him to say suggesting what he wants them to say. I mean, that's that's what he what his goal was, to extract information on

unwilling subjects. That's the most important thing to to remember here. Like, with hypnosis, if you if you believe you can be hypnotized, well, of course, you're you're gonna be more suggestive. Mhmm. You want it to work. This could be fun.

But unwilling subjects and give them amnesia, in the interrogation, implant false memories, and then they don't know what's what their real memory and what the false memories are, and maybe that's where the suggestion comes into play. But he was he was in the pocket of, Sydney Gottlieb. They they knew each other. This wasn't like

these weren't sub projects that went off the rails per se. Sydney Gottlieb, like, wrote the checks Mhmm. For for these things. He he knew who these people were. So for this this that particular instant in incident to happen one year after the creation of MK Ultra, like, I just It's a bit conjecture, but I think they they knew.

Mhmm. Now, they also let's let's play devil navigator. They give a good guy like, hey, sometimes, convicting somebody that doesn't remember a crime is hard to do and this guy definitely did it. So at least let's make sure that we we get him.

Maybe. I don't know. Just throwing it out there. Yeah. He's also known Jollian West is also known for in 1962, he killed an elephant named Tusco with LSD. Yeah. This was a fucking Dosed the shit out of him. It was it was, like, 300 or a thousand times the suggested dose.

Yeah. For an elephant. And then he, like, it off. He, like, laughed it off. Like, apparently, people would ask about it and and talk about it, and he'd be like, oh, yeah. Just like as if it's a joke. And it's like, you fucking that poor that poor elephant just got Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Tusco. Shout out, Tusco.

Sorry, mate. Sorry that people have done that to you. I'm sure you're right. Famous Jolley and West things is he interviewed Jack Ruby who was the killer of, the man who assassinated Lee Harvey Oswald. Those who don't know, Lee Harvey Oswald is the man who assassinated Jeff Kaye.

Mhmm. And Jack Ruby, after his interaction with with Jollian West, is says, like, all of these crazy things as to why he did it that don't really make any fucking sense. You know, it's a potential Jack Ruby is tied in with the mafia, and I'm not gonna go into JFK conspiracy theory stuff.

But people say, well, you know, Lee Harvey Oswald was MK Ultra in into killing Kennedy, and and, there was this whole conspiracy theory to kill Kennedy. And then, of course, they need Ruby to kill Oswald so he doesn't talk. And then they potentially send in Jolley and West and to talk to Jack Ruby and insert all of these things like,

oh, this is gonna start a race war, and everybody's gonna blame it on the Jews. And I don't I don't want there's gonna be blood in the streets and thousands of Jews killed if if I let Lee Harvey Oswald win and

and just all all of these different things were inserted that don't make any sense whatsoever as to motive as to why Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald, but it certainly gets them off of the case for some kind of, larger conspiracy Mhmm. As to why JFK was assassinated.

So he's he's famous. He's famous at this point, Jollian West, and he he doesn't go away. We'll bring him on later in the story.

There was a little alley in San Francisco, back of the Southern Pacific station at 3rd And Townsend, in red brick of drowsy lazy afternoons with everybody at work and offices. In the air, you feel the impending rush of their commuter frenzy.

Assume they'll be charging en masse for market and sansome buildings on foot and in buses and all well dressed through working man Frisco of walk up truck drivers. And even the poor grime be marked 3rd Street of lost bums, even Negroes so hopeless and long left east and meanings of responsibility and try.

That now all they do is stand there spitting in a broken glass, sometimes 50 in one afternoon against one wall at 3rd And Howard. Segment three, cultural spread, cults, and domestic ops. From the CIA safe houses of Operation Midnight Climax in San Francisco to the streets of Haight Ashbury is only a few miles and a few years.

In the San Francisco safe houses, the fat blob bowling ball of a man, George Hunter White and his team used prostitutes to lure men, dosed them with LSD and watched through two way mirrors while sitting on portable toilets.

Short time later, in the same city, a different group of young women were also luring men with sex and drugs. Only this time, the operation wasn't run by the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. It was run by Charles Manson.

Manson moved through Haight Ashbury at the exact moment the neighborhood became the epicenter of the new culture. He obtained medical treatments for himself and members of the family at the free clinics.

He recruited, he watched. Right in the middle of that neighborhood sat two overlapping operations. Doctor. David Smith opened the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic in June 1967 to treat the flood of damaged kids pouring into the Haight at the time.

Lewis Jollian West, the MKULTRA linked psychiatrist who had already predicted the rise of violent LSD cults, set up a laboratory disguised as a hippie crash pad on Frederick Street. West's graduate students dressed as hippies and lured itinerant kids into the apartment so their behavior could be observed.

The free clinic became both a medical refuge and a convenient recruitment pool. Manson and his early followers were regulars at the free clinic. Jolly West was running his observational crash pad just blocks away at the same time and drawing subjects from the same pools.

San Francisco was the biological testing ground for operation sea spray, hosted official LSD experiments, and was now hosting the largest uncontrolled social and pharmacological experiment in American history.

The cat leaves the bag and so do the rats. LSD did not stay in the laboratories. Sandoz and then Eli Lilly produced it. The CIA and the army tested it, but once it reached psychiatrists, writers, and musicians, the containment failed.

It moved into high society, then into the beats and the jazz scene, then into Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters who turned it into a mobile public performance. By the mid nineteen sixties, the hippie movement had taken the drug and the idea of deliberate ego dissolution and scaled them into communes, free love,

and a full rejection of straight society. Gottlieb and the men around him were not the only ones drawn to Eastern mysticism, occult ideas, and the deliberate breaking of the personality.

The same currents, theosophy through Helena Blavatsky, Alastair Crowley, various yogic and magical traditions were flowing through the artistic and spiritual underground. When those ideas met cheap, plentiful LSD in a generation that already felt the old order was bankrupt,

the result was an explosion of gurus, cults, and the experimental living arrangements. The environment bred Charles Manson and the Manson family. Charles Manson did not invent the group mind control techniques by any means, by any stretch of the imagination.

He perfected a particularly vicious street version of them. Replace the biological family with the new family, Give members new names. Alternate intense love with sudden withdrawal and punishment.

Create a shared external enemy. Use sex, drugs, and exhaustion to break down resistance. Keep people isolated from outside information. The girls once drew men in with promise of an orgy, were running a recruitment and controlled operation that looked in structure, if not in sponsorship, uncomfortably familiar.

The Tate LaBianca murders were the moment the experiment turned into national trauma. When the girls later said, it just felt right. They were describing the end state of the process. Ordinary moral judgment had been replaced by the group's reality.

As you may have heard for the show, Max and I both read Tom O'Neil's Chaos. In Chaos, mister O'Neil spends twenty years documenting the strange overlaps, Manson's improbable parole history, the proximity to intelligence linked figures, the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic, the intersections with COINTELPRO and Operation Chaos.

Some of his stronger claims remain speculative. What is not speculative

is that in the same city, the same drug, and the same decade produced both the CIA's controlled experiments and the uncontrolled social explosion that followed. The techniques of influence and personality breakdown were no longer secrets locked inside government programs.

They were loose in the culture. CointelPro and Operation Chaos show the other side of the same coin. State moving from foreign mind control research to domestic surveillance and disruption of political and cultural movements.

The Beach Boys, Terry Melcher, Spawn Ranch connections illustrate how porous the boundary between the glamorous surface of California culture and the darker experimental underground had become.

By the late nineteen sixties, the cat was fully, fully out of the bag. The drugs, the social experiments, the cult techniques, and the deliberate dissolving of the ordinary self were no longer locked inside intelligence safe houses or psychiatric wards they had spilled into the open. The strategy itself had shifted.

The old goal had been to break the individual mind and rebuild it. The new goal was quieter and more ambitious. Shape the environment so thoroughly that most people would never need to be broken.

They would simply adapt. In the densest corners of the counterculture, the results looked uncannily like John Calhoun's mouse utopias. Given abundance, freedom from old constraints, and extreme social density, normal patterns of care, pair bonding, and self control begin to collapse.

Aggression rose. Maternal and social instincts frayed. Some withdrew completely. Others formed tight, hierarchical, and ultimately destructive groups. What began with beats, keysy, eastern mysticism, and the hippie experiment reached its most brutal public expression in the Manson Family murders.

A few years later, the church committee dragged the hidden government programs into the light. By the mid nineteen seventies, the consequences were no longer theoretical. They were in full view.

That track of LSD being in the CIA and at these cocktail parties amongst these elite, but then getting released in into the hospitals and you have, Ken Kesey and the Merry Prank sters. I don't know if you you I don't know how much you know about the nineteen sixties.

But just imagine this kind of guru like party guy and in the scene wrote One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Volunteered at, you know, re a research hospital to get more LSD. It kind of gets released into the wild amongst all these musicians and and beat poets.

The intro to this, I played Jack Kerouac. Jack Kerouac is a famous beat poet. He's my favorite beat poet. But that one was about San Francisco in particular, so I thought it thought it was appropriate to play.

Something strange about San Francisco. There's something strange about San Francisco. Yeah. We didn't get to talk about it, the operation sea spray, they released a biological agent on San Francisco that was supposed to be harmless, but then somebody died of a

what about you? A bladder infection or UTI or something like that. So somebody did die from operation seed spray.

Okay. But then, you know, operation midnight climax and you got George Hunter White there and it's still a weird place. Right? Keep San Francisco weird. Yeah. The weird the weird crept up the West Coast to Portland and Seattle. It just got weirder the more north you go.

So Hate Ashbury, that's where this LSD Eastern mysticism fueled culture. This is like the apex of it. Hate Ashbury, the intersection of these two streets. Interestingly enough, you've you've got a number of characters there. Here we have Jolley and Wes popping up again, sets himself up a little a little place to

maybe test and experiment on the stupid hippie kids. You've got Dave Smith who opens up his his free medical clinic. And, you know, I don't know what this guy's intentions were with the free medical clinic, but it just so happens that he was involved in experiments himself

with drugs. Like, he he knew drugs very well. It wasn't like Dave Smith was a, what do they call him? Straight laced. Yeah. Yeah. Like a primary care physician. He has a research science background in pharmaceuticals.

So how is it that he became, like, everybody's primary care doctor in Haight Ashbury? Does that make sense to you, man? Is this adding up, man? Yeah. That part did again stand out to me in the sense that you had a perfect place to meet and find the types of people that you could maybe we say would be suggestible or

that you could test things on because they were already using or less likely to have a close family structure. Oh, yeah. They would be the types of people that you could manipulate easier.

So you have have you have three people that are kind of linked in in in the same way here. You have Dave Smith Dave Smith, who's got the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. But he is also, like, a clinical researcher at the same time who is testing on

rats, mice. For some reason, he can't recall in different interviews. He says the rats and other interviews he says are mice. But he was kind of building on, we had talked about this in another show, Calhoun's mouse utopia experiments

where you give these mice everything they could possibly need. You put them in a a densely populated environment. They want for nothing, but eventually, they will go completely feral. You'll have roving bands of aggressive males just eating other mice, killing babies. Babies. Yeah. Yeah. Which stands out again in the book because you have

what happens with the Munson family. It's very similar to those studies. And then you have somebody who's studying mice and or rats interchangeably in a similar way using drugs, and then you have the Manson family actually visiting and spending a lot of time in that facility with the person who's studying

rats and mice and these drugs and what can happen. And then you have what happens in the studies happen to people. Maybe that's why it's again, can't prove this. Maybe why he doesn't remember so clearly. Is it rats? Is it mice? Which are different species. Like, it should rats. Is it mice? Is it humans?

It should matter. The only reason it wouldn't matter is if the rats or mice don't matter at all because it is humans, because that's a more interesting study. The behavior of these mice and rats and the behavior of this family are scarily similar.

There's a way you could tell the story where where Dave Smith of the the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic sort of looks like a good guy. He's still around. He's a he's a hippie type. He's still in San Francisco.

You know, he's a he's a big, free health care, you know, guy, and that's that's what we did. And that's what we did back in the day, man. We just took care of people. You know? It didn't matter if they had a drug problem. We we took care of them. We cared about people.

So he he comes off as a good guy, but also and he says he didn't know this, but Jolley and West is is poaching his subjects from him. You know, just a few blocks away, here comes Jolley and West popping up again in San Francisco.

Randomly. It's like Just He just Jolly West just happens to be just down the road, and the Mansons just happened to come to this clinic. And Yeah. Jolley West just happens to be in rooms interrogating people who happen to be involved in murders.

But it is just random. That's the thing that you need to remember. They're talking about self fulfilling prophecy again. You know, Jollian West publicly predicted LSD cults. Mhmm. Did he publicly predict them? Because he was helping to create them. No. I

don't I don't know. That is conjecture. But we have all these facts for you to to think about and and imagine. And I don't know. It's it's certainly makes for a good podcast, doesn't it?

I hope that I'm relatively level headed with things. And Mhmm. When I read through that book, just gut feeling for me was like,

this fucking doesn't quite add up. Or, actually, the reverse of that, this does add up to something quite weird. Yeah. Like we said in the last episode, the author loses, like, half his life

to writing this book. It starts out as a Tom O'Neill. Yeah. Tom starts it starts out as like, oh, this is gonna be an article in in a magazine. It turns into ten years, then it turns into twenty years. And, like, he never fully he completely loses himself to the story because as he digs deeper, he finds more weirdness.

And there's actually a point in there as well where he spent some time with his family, and I think his his father is an accountant or a is he an I think he was an accountant

or a lawyer. I think he was an accountant. I think he was an account. And and he he speaks to his dad, and he says that it's like a this is like, I'm laying it out. This is what I think, and these are all these connections. And Yeah. He he's he's like, let let's go over the paperwork together. I'll help you organize it. Yeah.

It's a cool that's a cool thing to do. It's a cool dad. Yeah. It's a cool dad. And and I don't think he's enabling his son by doing this. It's just that when you put all of this together,

you can't prove everything, and that's why we're being careful not to say, like, oh, this definitely is this and this definitely is that other than what's on record and the things we've discussed there. These organizations definitely were a thing. There definitely was a goal to control the mind using drugs.

Sure. It was a stated goal. These are all provable things, but what you can't prove is that Manson was controlled by No. A government to do certain things to find out if they could control people to the point where they would commit murder.

We can't prove that there was a link between Manson and these organizations and an assassination of the president. We can't prove all these things, but when you look at it, you go, it seems unlikely that these things aren't connected. I can't prove it that way, but it it

no matter how logical you try and be, you look at it, or at least I did, and I'm like, fuck. This is it could be random, but fucking hell. It doesn't seem like it. Let me just go over the the coincidences here. Okay. Here here's something that is is believable,

that Jolley and West goes interviews Jimmy Shavers and implants suggestion into him through hypnosis and drugs. Oh. Alright. I I I can buy that. Sure. He kills an elephant with LSD. Well, said he did that, so that's okay. He he he interviews Oh, that's okay.

Yeah. He interviews Jack Ruby, and then Jack Ruby seems to have this cockamamie reason as to why he killed Lee Harvey Oswald. Alright. Well, that's yeah. Now he's getting into the bigger conspiracy stuff. He just so happens to predict, you know, a violent LSD cult before he sets up an operation in Haight Ashbury

at this exact same time that Charles Manson is released from prison and the culmination of the nineteen sixty seven Summer of Love. And set up from this free clinic that is not far away from this guy, Dave Smith, who is doing sort of mouse utopia type experiments except

he may be given them amphetamines to see if he can't ramp them up to be even more violent and fucked up and eat their babies and eat each other and stuff. And then Charles Manson

leaves Haight Ashbury after that possibly, you know, this is this is a conspiracy theory side effect. Yeah. Probably learning all of these mind control techniques that the MK Ultra program has produced and that Jolley and West has actually participated in and had actionable results.

Maybe learn some lessons. How can I mix this and that and this eastern spiritualism? And I'm a guru now, and I can take people's identity away. I can take the family away. I can give them new names now. He just so happens to have all these really good techniques for creating this predicted LSD

cult. And then, okay, I learned what I needed to know at the proving grounds at the summer of love, man. And I'm gonna head down to to LA County the next year. And the year after that, my group is going to commit these murders.

Yeah. There might be no connection at all.

None. None in the least. Mm-mm. Other thing is whether it is all connected, which it probably is, or it isn't, we can't prove. But what we can prove is that all of these things happened in parallel.

The point of these episodes is to say what we can prove and also then to try and insulate ourselves or protect ourselves and the people that we love from Mhmm. Being influenced in ways that are not best for us.

There are ways to protect yourself from it. John and Max has taught 10 tips how to not let your daughter be part of a drug sex murdering cult. Number one, don't abuse her as a child. Mhmm. Number two, make sure she doesn't run away. Number three, if she does run away, go and get her.

The end. This has been John and Max's top three ways to keep your child from joining a drug riddled murderous sex cult. That's great. Join us next time. By the way, back to who Manson is, he's like a a two bit pervert weirdo criminal guy who just happens to get released at that time the summer of love in San Francisco.

He is a two bit criminal who's been done for rape of a young boy Mhmm. Car theft Process of pimp. Charges. Yeah. All sorts of, like I was a fucking pimp, man. I was one of the original pimps.

Random crimes that don't link into this level of control in any way, shape, or form. And as far as everyone is concerned, he is basically illiterate. He has no formal training in any type of background pharmaceuticals or even, like, control personality control or sales or

anything where you would learn how to influence people outside of just what he's learned as a pimp. And suddenly, in a very, very short space of time Very short. Two years, Max. Two fucking years.

He he gets released I actually have this on my notes. He gets released March 1967. 19 sick August 1969. So a year in, like, what, five months, the Tate Laubianca murders happen in August.

Yeah. And in that short time, he amasses a a proper cult following of people who literally will kill for him. He also manages to control in some way or another police officers. His parole officer? Parole officer who actually ends up taking in his child and looking after his child or one of his children constantly lies

and gets him released. Goes to the free clinic to meet with him. He's he's enamored by his girls. Drops every other client. You know? Mhmm. Most of these guys have, like, between 60, a 100 clients. He oh, you don't call it clients, but, know, whatever you actually call it. Parolee. Parolees.

He drops all the way down to one. Puts in a good word for him and any of the girls who get arrested, gets them released constantly. Makes an ex makes an excuse for him to mantle to go to Florida. Mhmm.

His control over people and ability to get arrested and just walk out scot free and just be left alone, even when police come onto the ranch and they're told, oh, I have people Yeah. With guns trained on you and will kill you.

Even walking around with submachine guns and having a full arsenal at his control, the police are like, cool. Just release him. Just let him go. It's not a problem. Just let him go. When the murders happen, even when there's a lot of similarities between a couple of the murders, it's completely overlooked.

There's just that there's so many things where back to, like, the probability thing. You go, yeah. It could probably happen one thing. Yeah. Those two things happening, yeah, maybe. These 10 things happening, pretty fucking unlikely.

You just start to think of the odds, and you're like, that has better entropy than a cold card. Ew. That's, that is extremely, unlikely. That's a big number. Yeah. That's true. As far as you can take it is,

it's really fucking unlikely for none of this to be linked, and it's really fucking unlikely unlikely for somebody who's illiterate with no training in any of the things that you'd need to get as good as he became as quickly as he did.

Not having any influence, external influence, or any help having the ability to just have unlimited amount of LSD and weapons and access to to girls. And even when they go missing and police find them, they don't bring them back to their parents. There's just like a Yeah.

There's an improbability in the likelihood that there's that level of incompetence over and over and over and over again. I just don't believe it. In a two year span, Charles Manston's rise to fame, man, get released from prison, go to summer love, get myself some girls, pimp them out, deal some drugs,

talk to the one of the most famous psychological scientists that man has ever known, Jollen West, maybe. I don't know. Go to Haight Ashbury Free Clinic, then I leave that place, man. And then guess what? I'm hanging out with Terry Melcher, and I'm hanging out with Beach Boys, and I'm dealing them drugs.

And I'm getting them girls, and we call ourselves the golden penetrators. Then I get myself on Spawn Ranch out in Hollywood on the Old West set, and I got all my girls, and we got guns, and we got the police are ignoring us. And then all of a sudden, you kill some famous people. In a two year span, all of this stuff happens.

It's amazing for the conspiracy theory side of things, but it is also amazing the effectiveness of his mind control techniques. And they're simple, and the stuff we've already gone over in the episode, replace the family. So you you have the new family. You have a new priest. You have a new guru. Everybody gets new names.

I like that because the names are kinda funny. What would your name be? Charles Manson were to give you a name, Max, what would it be? Golden Unicorn. Yeah, man. That's right. You're my golden unicorn with your giant unicorn horn.

That's right, golden unicorn. I got some girls over there for you, man. I they got them just for you. Get them with your golden unicorn horn.

Look, everybody, come and ride the golden unicorn. It would take me to the moon, man. Sex, tried and true, tested, verified.

Don't thrust to verify.

Greatest mind control technique right there. Yeah. Oh, wait. We forgot, you know, we forgot to mention we mentioned at the beginning, but of course, all this is culminating with the the midnight climax is happening in San Francisco too. Why move to San Francisco, George Hunter White? Were the prostitutes better? Probably.

Two and a half miles. The Operation Midnight Climax operation in San Francisco from Haight Ashbury. It's not like it's even all the way across town. So there you have it. That's the late sixties.

Then by the early seventies, mid seventies, the church commission comes out and all the MK Ultra stuff and sub projects are revealed in some way. Sidney Gottlieb gets gets brought up and has to testify in in a closed in a closed situation, so we don't get to hear hear him

speak and answer these questions. But but he does take questions. Now, lot of the files were destroyed in the early seventies at at Gottlieb's and and Helms, who was maybe the director of the CIA at the time, or at least at least ran this division of the CIA.

So the only thing they had by that time were financial documents and, like, notes written by Gottlieb who who kept obsessive notes about where all this money went. So at least we knew that, like, oh, you and Cameron, he gets $69,000.

Or this the, you know, George Hunter White, leather boots, $35, bottle of gin, portable toilet, you know. So that's that that's all there, but we don't have the good stuff. And that's quite unfortunate because, you know, it would be kind of interesting to see, wouldn't it? It would be very interesting to see.

So that's it. The seventies are over. I think, you know, America's looking to move on to something else, something new, looking to a new future.

Section four, modern continuities from the nineteen eighties to the present. The nineteen eighties brought prosperity back to America. Under Reagan, the cultural message to their young shifted hard, just say no. Psychedelic rock gave way to partying metal and hair bands. Punk burned out. New wave and yacht rock took over the airwaves.

The remaining hippies traded in their VW buses for Volvos and BMWs. Disco, already fading, was publicly executed at Disco Demolition Night at Comiskey Park in Chicago. Generation x, born in the seventies and the early eighties, grew up in a relative era of renewed innocence.

The same boomers who had spent the previous decade dissolving their egos on acid and building communes put on suits and became the Miami Vice Wolf of Wall Street yuppies. Cocaine replaced LSD as the signature drug.

The communes and most of the cults dissolved. The overt government run mind control experiments of the MK Ultra era receded from view. Influence operations did not disappear, they migrated.

Increasingly, they were run by corporations, pharmaceutical companies, advertising agencies, and media rather than by intelligence agencies and safe houses. For Millennials, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, Gen Beta our children, the latter two the tools became quieter and more pervasive.

The widespread adoption of hormonal birth control altered the reproductive and social patterns of an entire generation. SSRIs and later ADHD medications placed millions of people, including large numbers of children, on daily psychiatric drugs that change mood, attention, and emotional range.

These were not secret CIA programs. They were prescribed openly, marketed heavily, and normalized. The effect, however, still belongs to the same long conversation, chemical influence over internal states at population scale.

The 19nineties.com boom looked for a moment like the high watermark of Western prosperity and cultural confidence. Then came the shocks that reopened the older toolkit

on a far larger scale. 09/11 normalized mass surveillance and the security state in daily life. Social media platforms turned influence into an algorithmic real time personalized system that dwarfed anything the CIA programs could have imagined.

Neural implants and brain computer interfaces, once the stuff of speculative MK Ultra side projects move from science fiction into active development and early human trials. And COVID became in speed, scale, and psychological reach, the most comprehensive influence operation in modern history.

Fear, social pressure, institutional authority, media saturation, and the rapid rewriting of everyday norms all at once. The ancient pattern never left. It only changed hands, refined its methods, and upgraded its tools.

Max, you weren't fortunate enough to be a child of the eighties as myself, but, I don't know. The seventies calmed down pretty well,

and, the eighties were really, an era of prosperity and peace and and all the way into the nineties and the .com boom. It was it was pretty cool. Even looking back, you don't feel like there was some kind of mass influence campaign or conspiracy of mad scientists controlling our minds.

It did seem pretty cool. What came after that was much less cool. Mhmm. I think you see it in personalities. You can sort of tell when did you grow up. When were you like a young adult and a and a teen?

And what sort of era? And I think the people that I grew up with are probably more comfortable believing in the sorts of things we're covering and have less trust in governments and organizations than the generation before because Mhmm. At least speaking for myself, like,

going through the thing, 11 and COVID. Yeah. Just like the the financial crisis and just like everything. And it also, like, hits different people differently. I remember, like, I literally bought my first home ten days it completed before the financial crisis two thousand eight.

And, like, I'd, like, really fucking worked hard to get that place. And I was young when I got it, and I remember saying to my boss at the time, like, is this bad? Like, is it and he was like, oh,

I didn't know. Like, I was I was literally I was a kid. And I was like, is it bad? And he's like, oh, yeah, mate. You're fucked. I was literally was like, oh, yeah, mate. You're fucked. And I was like, oh, really? He's like, oh, yeah. It's gonna be quite bad.

And so, like, that and experiencing 09:11, I remember that happening and being in the playground and then, like, being called in to, like, watch the TV and seeing it live. And I remember having the conversations afterwards, and very much, I was like, we've gotta fight back. We gotta fucking show them. This is disgusting. Like like,

I remember, like, at the feeling of anger. Boot in your ass. That's the American way. Fully on board with let's go fuck some people up. Yeah. Yeah. Zero understanding of what happened. Like, not to go into any conspiracy theory stuff on this one. It's unnecessary.

But the point is, like Although I can go on. Yeah. I think I think it's worth, like, touching on in another episode. But Wink. Wink. The point is, like, when you see that and how if you can look at how you acted and what you thought Mhmm. Very strongly, and then after learning some more things, go,

was I thinking for myself there? Was that reasonable? Like Yeah. The same with the financial crisis and, like, oh, like, could this have been avoided? Or, yeah, probably. And, like,

you you see how it impacts your life and the things after it. Going through an airport's now a fucking nightmare, and a lot of your rights are starting to be stripped away. And then you have COVID after that. And, you know,

COVID came at a time where I'd already started getting involved with the Freedom Tech movement and was already even though it was, like, early on, already, like, looking at things in a skeptical way.

Mhmm. And then that comes, and it was so clear to me from day one what was going on.

And, like, I'd actually people can check the tapes and go back. I genuinely don't think I've made a single bad call about it. I've got podcasts talking about what I think is going on and who's doing what and where this is gonna go and why and, like, call me out if I've been wrong, but the recordings are there. Track record of success.

And that's not from being smart. It's just I can just see fucking hell. This is pretty obvious. This is a pattern here. Watching it play out and living through it and trying to do good for the people around you and protect the people around you who you love from something that to you is very clear

and then being told, go and put a face diaper on. Mhmm. You have to wear it to your seat when you're in the restaurant, but it's okay. You can take it off to eat. And being told these logical inconsistencies that That's not right.

So painfully obvious. Put a fucking piece of cloth over your face. That's gonna do it. You don't need a proper mask. Like, that's that'll do it. And and when you're looking at it through that lens of, like, this is obviously retarded. Like, nothing here is there's no logic. There's no sense outside of control,

and you have to live through it. And you see people you respected, fall for it, people you care about be harmed by it, and your freedoms be taken away after all the other shit that you go through. It does change your feelings towards authority, and it does change the way that you view

things. Like, I I view most things as, it's probably a threat unless I can verify that it's not, which is not a a great way to live. But it it it's a decent stance. It's a decent stance in terms of, like, it protects you from Operational readiness.

Yeah. But it's not actually a very nice way to live. Like, would much rather have Yeah. Had the eighties vibe of, like, yeah. Let's fuck around on our bikes. Let's listen to some rock and roll. Let's party. Let's, like, let's have some fun. I feel bad for you. I feel I feel really bad for my kids.

Yeah. Oh, fuck. Yeah. Like, I think they've got even worse. Sort of Damocles hanging over their head all of the time. And everything is recorded, and everything is online, and every like, I I avoided that for my early childhood.

Like, I had a Game Boy in my early childhood and, like, the gray box Nintendo thing with, like, duck hunt on it. But it wasn't like there wasn't social media. There wasn't gaming. I didn't have photos. I was the first kid to have a phone,

but it wasn't like a phone that, you know, you can use for everything else. It was like a fucking like, you can dial a number, and you can send a text. Yeah. I had a pager. That's very different.

So at least I had that, and it was like, you'd meet up with your friends. What are you gonna do? Like, you're playing hide and seek, and you're riding bikes, and you're you're fucking around. Like, that it so I'm really, really grateful, and I feel blessed that I lived that. And I think I was probably one of the last kids

Mhmm. Our little generation. It's probably not the last ones that just missed the, like, screens all the time. I'd say so. I think the things were happening in the eighties and and nineties.

Mhmm. They were happening. The campaigns were happening. SSRIs, what? Late eighties for that? I started hearing about that kind of stuff in maybe like the early nineties.

We didn't know anybody that was on an SSRI or on ADHD medication. We never heard of ADHD at the time. You you were hyper. Our kid's hyper. I think the thing that we put them on at that time was Ritalin. Yeah. But then now all of a sudden, these these, SSRIs come out, and you have the school shootings,

and here comes the group trauma thing, the nationwide trauma as a mechanism for for mind control. You have school shootings. Oh, well, therefore, we need to, limit your Second Amendment rights in every school shooting that happens after that. Boom. It's, it's group trauma, and we have to limit your Second Amendment rights.

And so is that a conspiracy where they're hopping kids up on SSRIs and and school shootings increase? I don't know. It it kind of doesn't matter, but something is happening at that time where kids are getting doped up on drugs. Doped up on drugs, boom. Now all the screens come out in the two thousands. Everybody's dialing up on AOL.

You're dealing porn Yeah. At school on floppy disks. Pornography is more graphic and available to children than ever. So here's another culmination of things. Boom. You've got all these kids on ADHD and and SSRIs.

Similar time, legalization of marijuana push, which I am certainly not a a proponent of. That was later. It I under I understand that, but I'm just it the the the talk of that kind of stuff Mhmm. Was, like, around this time.

Yeah. Pushing it. You know, I I remember, Woody Harrelson, you know, all the time talking about legalization of of marijuana. And now the screens, and now you have availability to pornography Yeah. To violence.

You have these international trauma campaigns, nine eleven, whether it's, whatever the conspiracy theory is around it, which I we can talk about some other time if you want to. Whatever it is, it was certainly used at the culmination of all of these other things happening.

And now we're willing to wait in lines, take our shoes off, and have our face scanned, and have all of our phone calls recorded. It's to the point that we joke about it. Oh my god. There's, iPhone in my pocket. Let's record everything we say.

Isn't isn't that right? You talk to your Alexa or whatever and and you admit that it's it's, it's watching you. It was just the these these traumatic events in human history A very uttering this. Very quickly. Yeah. Like, priming you up in the eighties and nineties with drugs. 1984 chat of, like,

oh, wouldn't that be fucked up if you Mhmm. Had the government listening to what you say to Wouldn't it, though? To literally every device being connected and proof. I mean, again, like, this is not something like snowed and leaks and things like that. It's not like, oh, yeah. They might be. It's like, no. They fucking

did. Yeah. They do. And they do. And, like, yes. No question that your privacy doesn't matter to them, or it actually does matter so much to them that they are actively trying to take it from you. I can see you in an argument. They did, they do, and yes. Yeah. It's and it's fucking disgusting.

It's hard always to point to one thing where you see change in behavior from generation to generation. And why I seem so much cooler than you. Seem. Yeah. Do do everybody watch?

But you can't you can't, like, say, oh, it's because of SSRIs or because of this other drug or because of nine eleven or because of porn or because of access to more information or it all comes at the same time, much like one of the the future episodes that we're gonna do is on vaccines.

And, you know, pro vaccination people will always say, oh, well, you can see there's this elimination of these diseases at the same time as these vaccines come out. It's like, yeah. But that it wasn't actually the only fucking thing that Right. Was changed. And I can see the increase in this based on the same timeline.

Yeah. So you it but it it muddies the waters because nothing's in a vacuum. Yeah. And that's often the issue. But what you can see clearly is a change in groupthink. That is a little bit of everything. The things that you've pointed out there, like SSRIs, these other drugs for ADHD kids, if

you're surrounded by people like we are in the, like, freedom circles, how much, how much does your personality or your thought pattern change? Probably quite a lot. Don't really know. But you can see generation to generation that there is a difference.

At least the way I see it, a lot of the things that have been introduced, a lot of the big things where the fear is pushed, a lot of the type of substances that are pushed tend to make people a bit more docile, weaker, softer, food, weed, porn, pulling people away from family family values, pulling people away from god.

All of these trends that make love less significant in people's minds, long term relationships, like this hookup culture, all of that stuff to my mind anyway, if I'm gonna look at it as someone who wants to attack family values and take away strong men

and take away their weapons and take away the ability for them to fight me if I'm to do something that might not be best for them, It certainly fucking seems that way. Like, it and that could just be because it's like you see the things that you're looking for. But the generation now, as a general rule, we don't put everyone in this, but

compared to my grandparents are soft as shit. Yeah. This is my generation, so I'm not slamming someone else and being like, oh, we're great. My generation's soft as shit, and the boomer generation before are fucking don't don't even get me started. It's a change from generation to generation, and this is like a whole you can control

a 100 dials by a point or two and create an outcome, and you can never just point at one thing, and that's what makes unraveling anything Yeah. Close to impossible. Well, we're not here to unravel it. We're here to just present the information and give you our opinion on it Mhmm. And hopefully be entertaining at the same time.

Because it would be quite serious. It's probably the most serious show we've ever done. I know. We we've had some fun. We've had some We talked about, you know, sitting on the toilet while watching doped up Johns doing hookups. It does sound fun.

It does sound fun. Well, let's let's bring the fun back with our next section, how you can, resist Yes. And stay ungovernable. Oh.

Is that Manson? Is this the that is the Manson? Yeah. That's the Manson family. These lyrics Yeah. You like that? Plus, I thought the lyrics were were were pretty relevant. Mhmm. And the name.

I put a lot of thought into this, man. You always do. We've spent this whole conversation looking at the long arc of influence and control from the ancient priest classes and their rituals through the intelligence programs of the Cold War,

the cultural explosion to the nineteen sixties, and into the algorithmic and the institutional systems of our own time. The methods change, the architecture remains recognizable. So how do you, as an ungovernable, resist it?

First, learn to see the dialectics. One of the most effective modern control patterns is to trap people inside two opposing talking points, the CNN boomer water cooler version versus the Fox News NeoCon version, and then slowly moving the entire frame.

That is the Overton window operated through managed opposition. As long as you are fighting inside the approved pair of options, you are still inside the window. The moment you notice the frame itself and refuse to be limited by it, you become harder to steer.

Second, apply the simplest filter we have. What is more probable? Occam's razor does not solve every mystery, but it is a powerful check against the most elaborate stories, whether those stories come from official sources or from the fringes.

Ask which explanation requires the fewest new assumptions while still accounting for the evidence. Third, remember the Jefferson standard. Thomas Jefferson wrote to Peter Carr in 1787

question with boldness even the existence of a god because if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. If that is the standard for the highest questions, it is certainly the standard for every earthly authority and every official narrative.

What do you think, Max? Do those things make sense in order to remain an ungovernable, resist dialectics, remember Occam's razor, and question everything? Yeah. The biggest one for me is not getting pulled into arguing and infighting.

Mhmm. That is something that I know I've been guilty of in the past. Oh, yeah. And I really think that conserving energy is so important because the amount of energy that it takes to fight physically, but to argue thinking, oh, I could have said that. I could have said this. I should have said that. I did that. So many times. And

and I wanna change that. They can't think that. It's ridiculous. Why do they think a fucking piece of cloth going over their face makes any difference to this thing? And it actually There he goes again. Yeah.

It only hurts you. It only sucks the energy from you. It gets you so fixed on something that's so obviously illogical. You can't focus on other things that probably matter more. It makes you sick mentally and physically. It makes you weak mentally and physically because you're not sleeping. Oh, fucking angry.

I say this. Every like Yeah. You wake up in the middle. I know what I should have said. Yeah. You're walking through the streets, and you're letting it get to you, and you've got all this anger and instead of letting it go

and treating the people around you with love and saying your bit, and that's it. You don't do any more. Don't focus on the things that you can't change.

Yeah. And just focus on the things that you can actually change. You can eat well. You can Yeah. Go to the gym. You can speak kindly to your children and your partner and your mom and your dad, and you can have

influence in people's lives even if it's not the influence you specifically want about a fucking piece of cloth over their face or a jab in their arm. Like, you can still be there for people and make their lives better. And if that's really what you want, focus on the things that you can change.

And it's so fucking hard in the moment to do it when you're angry. And Yeah. Yeah. So, actually, look back to, like, what I said, oh, what do you do with the daughter when she's having to spend time back in the cave with a load of mongs?

Learn to control your anger and frustration and your mouth. Learn to just actually shut up. And when people are saying things that you know are wrong and are are fucking retarded, just Yeah.

Breathe. Think about something else. Pray. Whatever. Doesn't it doesn't matter what you do, but don't don't get sucked in. That's I think that's the biggest thing an ungovernable can do. Control your emotions.

You gotta practice it. It's hard. Get that muscle you have to get that muscle memory down. It's fucking hard. It's it's harder than a muscle up or any sort of thing you can do in the gym. It is

fucking difficult. And and being physically fit does actually help with it as well. Like, it's easy to not only get angry, it's easy to get depressed. I know, like, I've suffered from it, times where I've been

caught up with all this stuff and get all depressed, and then it's hard to actually have the energy to go to the gym. And it's, oh, why should I even bother eating well? And, you know Yeah. And and you spiral

Just gonna have that drink. Yeah. Exactly. And then the biggest fix, you know, it's happened multiple times in my life, in different parts of life. And every single time, the thing that has helped me the most is eating well, training hard. Train so fucking hard. You go through the pain to the point where you are exhausted,

and you get your quality sleep. And then you start to get if you're a personality, at least for me, like, you start to get addicted to that thing. And it's like Oh, yeah. Well, I don't have time to argue with this fucking idiot. I'm gonna go to the gym.

That is better than any pill, better than anything that you can do is be physically fit. Alright. I like it. For me, it's a combination of Occam's razor and and the Jefferson quote to question with boldness even the existence of God, which of course I don't, but you understand his point there.

Yeah. You know, what what what can what how bombastic can I be in making this point? Well, even question the existence of God for that matter. Mhmm. I I'm I'm always thinking. I'm I'm always questioning, and I'm always comparing it to Occam's Reality. Does that really make sense?

Why is that the simplest explanation? That doesn't fucking make sense. And a lot of times, the the provided explanation is quite simple, but is is it the simplest? Does it make the most sense? Just keep questioning. Then not to the point not to close-up with this, not to the point where you're like, I don't believe anything.

Yeah. Because when you're getting in into your thing again, like you're you're a battery. Like you've said before, you're gonna drain that damn battery all the time by going,

question with boldness every damn thing. No. Just apply a little bit of Occam's razor, apply a little bit of making sure you're not inside the the dialectic constructed Overton window of posing viewpoints. Gonna take all of these three things and mash them together. That's why I I came up with the three things.

Because I think they really work well together with synergies. Question everything that matters. Is it probably a better Well, that's a good one. Where do you are you are you better than Thomas Jefferson?

Maybe. You gonna come up with a better quote? What? I yeah. Alright. And even more important than that, be humble. Yeah.

That's that's you, buddy. Question the things that matter that are gonna affect you and your loved ones and then everything outside of that. Like, you know, I'm not gonna get worked up about the moon landing. Like, it's interesting. Yeah. Like, oh, it didn't happen. No. It fucking didn't happen. Yeah.

Well, actually, I don't really care. Like, it's interesting, but I don't care. Uh-huh. I spent I'm not gonna go down a rabbit hole about that. Am I gonna go down a rabbit hole about food or,

like, the jibby jabbies or something like that? Well, yeah, because my family benefit from me questioning it. Yes. I I love jibby jibby jabby. Jibby jabby. Say that. Jibby jabby. All the Brits say it.

Well, speaking of questions, I have more questions for you. Got 11 of them. I read the read a book called Project Mind Control. It wasn't as good as Chaos, and it wasn't as good as Poisoner in Chief. It was okay.

But at the end, they had some questions that could be useful. They're not perfect. They could be useful to, make you think if you're, privy to an influence operation and how you can prevent that. So you'll you can work out if I am being mind controlled Yeah. The moment.

Yeah. Take take the quiz to find out if you're susceptible to mind control. Wow. Okay. So 11 questions. Can people play along at home? They can. I would encourage them to do so. And if you're into, you know, posting on chat rooms and

boosts and all these different ways you have to communicate with the ungovernable crew Mhmm. Go ahead and and do that. Maybe give us your answers.

And label them one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, and 10, 11. Or if you just wanna answer one, just give us the number. Or do a b c d e and go that way if you're ungovernable. Say, fuck you, John. Oh, you're mother fucker. Yeah. You guys would do some stupid shit like that.

Number one, do you believe things simply because you want them to be true? No. Two, do you refuse to change your mind regardless of the evidence? I don't think so. I do often change my mind on things, so I don't think so. That's fine. I know you very well, so I I can have a good bullshit detector.

Okay. I can call out. I would call you out. Yeah. What are you gonna do? Lies. Yeah. I might. I will surprise you. We'll see. We'll see how you do. Is false. No. I don't want any, self fulfilling prophecies, so I'm not gonna say anything.

Three, do you ignore or rationalize away evidence that contradicts your beliefs? I'd say I probably ignore it a little bit. Okay. Because Well, I because it's the battery thing. You only got so much time in a day, man. Yeah. Especially,

like, beliefs that I'm very convinced about if there's, like, one little thing that maybe would go against that, but it would take a lot of time. Would I'd probably be like, yeah. Not today.

Not today. Not today, Satan. Yeah. Do you reject the consensus of the experts? Mhmm. I see. Do you reject Fauci and the experts? He is science, so I suppose I can't because he literally is science.

Do you reject the consensus of experts? I I reject the consensus of anyone who labels himself as anything. Right. Unless I deem them to be an expert. And my version of an expert would be if a Q or a Seth says to me, hey, mate. You should probably update this bit of software because you're gonna be vulnerable otherwise.

I'm not gonna start arguing with them because Mhmm. They have proven to me over and over and over and over that they're right. If you tell me something about mining or energy or telecoms, I'm gonna go, yeah.

Because he's always fucking right about it. But I'm not gonna just take somebody who calls himself an expert at their word. Mhmm. Especially when they're holding the expert over your head as as another system of control. Just having a little badge does not do anything.

An intellectually honest person that does that thing a lot. Well. The the the take expert out and say that Yeah. That that phrase there, that works for me. Yes. Do you talk only to people who share your beliefs?

Yeah. Yeah. We talked about that at the beginning of the show. Yeah. If I if I can avoid wasting energy with people who have opposing views

Yeah. And it's not helpful for me to learn about sometimes I'll I'll speak to somebody who knows about things that I don't know about, and they have opposing views on nine out of 10 things, but they're an expert in marine biology, and I wanna know something about a certain fish. Right.

I will I will definitely speak to that person. But if they're then like, hey. Should we talk about how everyone should have all their weapons taken away from them? I will I will avoid that because it's a waste of my fucking time. Do you find it difficult to empathize with people who disagree with you? That's number six, by the way.

No. I I actually think I'm quite good at empathizing with I I think I'm quite good at putting myself in other people's shoes Okay. And trying to get into their heads. Yeah. I think. Hey. That's a good start. Do you let your group define your identity?

Have done at times. Okay. I don't think so so much now. Like, I I think I definitely am guilty of that. Yeah. I think I think we all have at some point. Yeah. At times, I've been definitely guilty. I don't think so much now.

Eight. Do you or does your group have a history of making failed predictions? I I think when I say my group, my, like When you say your group, that's My close knit group of people that I would say are experts in their field and that I trust in their different areas of expertise have an extremely good above and beyond

Yeah. Good predictions, but

maybe that's just me being brainwashed and arrogant. Number nine, would you do something morally repugnant to appease your group?

Oh my god. Why is it taking you so long to answer that? Well, I'm just trying to think. I'm trying to answer honestly. This is worrying me. At times, probably. There's levels to it, obviously.

But Wish I wish this wasn't going so long. That's a scab I'd like to pick.

Yeah. I I wouldn't say I don't know. Would you do something morally repugnant to appease your group? Yeah. I probably would. Like, if if it's like everything kicks off like we think it might and I have to do something bad for the good of the group, and I know it's bad, but overall, it's good.

Yeah. I don't know if that's that I don't think that's the context of the question, to be honest with you. Okay. I'm bit misreading it. No. I I think it'd like so let's think about the Manson family. Mhmm.

You know, Tex Watson takes these girls and and shoots this whoever Mhmm. You know, Sebring or

Sharon Tate Yep. To make Charlie happy. I think that's I think that's used in the context of something. Like, if you said to me You know, when you were you were a kid, like, hey, man. Steal that those baseball cards. And then you think the cool the kids are gonna think you're cool because you stole the baseball cards.

I when I was a kid, I definitely did dumb shit just for attention. Well, you're not a kid. A 100. As a as a grown man. As a grown man, no. No. Like, it take I think now it takes a lot for me to be persuaded on anything.

So if it's bad, if it's like Yeah. Yeah. If it's you're curmudgeon. Yeah. So then no. Alright. And 11, if a reasonable person disagree with your beliefs, would you become angry with them? That brings us back to the beginning of the show. No.

Well, good. I think I think I I didn't need this quiz to know this stuff about you. Would you answer some honestly if I asked them to you? I I would. I would do nothing but answer them honestly. Again, though, I know you're not in a in a weird Asian led sex cult, BDSM.

Not anymore. Goat milking. I'm out. I was out last week. Hey. Do you believe things simply because you want them to be true? No. Okay. Do you refuse to change your mind regardless of the evidence?

Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. On sometimes, yeah. Okay. Because you're gonna present sometimes people want to present you with not neutral evidence. Mhmm. So the to me, that's almost like, alright. I I believe x. Alright. Well, I got all these articles, you know, like, people will do, you know. So I look. I saw an article.

I saw an article on Facebook and I sent it to you. Did you read it?

That's the evidence. You you know what I mean? That's a tough one. Okay. I I think that you're pretty level headed, and if someone comes to you I'm I can say this honestly, Max. I will investigate it. Yeah. And and but when you say refuse to change your mind regardless of evidence, someone's like, oh, I sent you something on Facebook.

I think that comes down to reputational. Like, if someone that you know is generally right on things or is a reasonable person and they present you evidence, I think you're very likely to go and investigate that. Yes. I most certainly will. Yeah. I'll investigate it. Some mom at the front gate of the school who's a fucking libtard prick

says, oh, look at this Facebooks thing. You'll be just going, oh, shut up. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for getting my back. Okay. Do you ignore or rationalize away evidence that contradicts your beliefs?

No. I that's a continuation of question two. I'd I've I'll look into it. Okay. Number three, do you ignore or rationalize away evidence that contradicts your beliefs? Listen.

Same you just Oh. Repeated the same question twice. Sorry about that. Okay. It's alright. Number three. Come to expect this kind of thing. Do you ignore or rationalize away evidence that contradicts your beliefs?

This is not a mind control technique to break you by repetition. You and Cameron.

Number four, do you reject the consensus of experts?

Offhand. Yeah. Yeah. I

think would it be fair to say similar answers to it. Yeah. Okay. Do you talk only to people who share your beliefs? For the most part, yeah. Do you find it difficult to empathize with people who disagree with you?

Difficult. Do I find it diff I can do it. I can do it. I don't wanna do it, but I can. Okay. Do you let your group define your identity? No. Silly. No. I don't think so. Do you or does your group have history of making failed predictions?

You you talking about the ungovernables? That's that's a that's a solid crew of predictors. That's an extremely solid crew. Solid. I just. It has become so solid over the past two, three weeks. It's wild.

Mhmm. Something's going on here. Yes. Almost like other people are controlled and the ungovernables are the only ungovernables even in an ungovernable group. Just blew my mind, bro. Mhmm.

Would you do something morally repugnant to appease your group? No. K. I see you strike quick with that one. I really let myself down answering that. It's like, fuck. He's actually a psychopath.

Would you tolerate others in the group doing something morally repugnant? No. I'm a call I'm a call you. Yeah. I I know you would. 11, if a reasonable person disagreed with your beliefs, would you become angry with them?

No. No. No. I don't. I'm either jerk about it. I'll be annoyed. Yeah. You're not really an angry person. Closing. Can cantankerous. That's what Sarah calls me. Oh, that's a good word. Yeah.

The oldest programs tried to break the individual mind and rebuild it. The newer systems try to shape the environment so thoroughly that most people never notice they're being shaped. The answer to both is the same, Stay ungovernable.

Question everything, especially the things you are not supposed to question. Keep your own counsel. Refuse to be trapped inside someone else's dialectic, and never hand over the right to do your own thinking.

That is how you answer MK Ultra with MK Ungovernable. Oh, I love that. Thank you. The, the true Manson family has just come through my gates. They are they are about to cause real chaos.

And you're Sharon Tate. Yeah. So I think we should wrap it up very quickly. That's it. That's the wrap up. Well, let's just tell them you love them. Yeah. I just wanna say anyone who has any advice on books to read, things to go through, tangential topics, suggestions of other topics. We have we have the next, like, three lined up anyway.

Their answers to those 11 questions. Get in touch. We'd love to hear from you. Send in your boosts. Get involved. And, yeah, just wanna say thank you for everyone supporting the ungovernables and pushing this thing forward, and I hope that people enjoy this new show. It's been fun. It has been fun. Thanks for listening.

Bye.