Obi Nwosu Bitcoin is the apple crumble of money.

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Alright, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and deliver to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back. Today's episode is with Obi. He's the CEO of Coin Floor UK. And it was really nice for me to have a catch-up with him. It had been about a year since we last spoke. If you haven't listened to that episode already, go and have a listen because we go into a little bit more detail on how he entered the space,

his background, and how Coin Floor UK was formed. This episode was more just a chance for me to catch up with him. We talked about all sorts, actually. We talked about Bitcoin, obviously.

But we also talked about technologies that we see coming in the future, teleportation, and all sorts of other things. Obi's always great to speak to on and off mic. As I've said many times, I'm very, very happy to be sponsored by Coin Floor UK.

They were my first sponsors. They have allowed me to help build this show. And whatever people's opinions are on KYC, I've obviously voiced my opinions on this show for a long, long time.

I do think that having exchanges, especially ones like Coin Floor, that do things properly are very important for onboarding people, we get into this topic a little bit in this episode. And there's levels to this stuff.

Maybe it's what people use when they first enter the space and over time. And as they learn, they start to find OK why I see they start to run their own nodes. They start to hold their own keys, use services like Samurai, et cetera.

But it takes time. And if you don't buy the Bitcoin in the first place, you're unlikely to have the incentive to actually learn. So I'm very glad that Coin Floor are around. And I'm very glad that there are CEOs like Obi, who really get this space.

And really care about it deeply. So I really hope you enjoy this episode. And if you have any questions, you can always reach out. If you aren't already with Coin Floor and you're looking to stack some stats and you're in the UK, you can use the link in the show notes to get 30% discount off your fees.

And it also helps support this show. And also, I'd like to say thank you to my other sponsors. Cryptoclopes have been sponsoring the show for a couple of months now. If you haven't already checked out that website, cryptoclopes.com, go and do it now.

If you are starting to run your own node and you want it to look really fucking cool, then this is the only place to go. They have so many amazing options to personalise your node. And you can run two, three, even four Raspberry Pi's with some of their options in one casing, and there's loads of other stuff they do.

Blockmates is a personal favourite of mine for stamping your seats, but really endless possibilities, colours, options and personalisations on there. And a fantastic team. Anyway, that's enough of the ads.

I really hope you enjoy this. As always, feel free to reach out and ask me any questions.

Nice to speak to you again. It's been some time. Yeah, it's been a minute. I think it's the modern way of saying it. I don't know if I'm hit or cool enough to say it's been a minute. I'll stick with it, it's been a while for now.

I can tell you one thing is it's been a little bit of a crazy ride since we last spoke. Since this crash, it's crashed all the way up to 37k from 9k. It's been pretty traumatic. How have you coped?

Yeah, the reverse crash. The movie that came out recently, where they go backwards in time, have you seen that one? No, I haven't actually. It's a sci-fi movie by the maker of Inception. It came out last year, where it's a time travel thing where they sort of fall upwards

and stuff like that, and they feel like I'm from that movie where I'm falling upwards. A tenet was the name of the movie. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, I'm a good supporter for you, but I hope you not.

Oh, no, I have to have a watch. I have to have a watch of it. But you're coping all right with all of this crashing and everything that's going on. Yeah, well, it's not my first rodeo in that sense.

I think for people it's their first time, it might be more exciting, but like Mr. Dean, the video mean where he's on the roller coaster and sort of eating a sandwich and almost falling asleep.

I've been around this a few times, so I'm not saying it's still fun, it's still interesting, but I sort of know how the ride finishes, and therefore it's easier. You get desensitized to it all a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. I suppose your mind goes to other things, you know. You stop focusing on the price, because you're like, yeah, okay, I've seen this movie. I know how this one ends. Let's focus on something a bit more interesting.

And so what is it that's grabbing your focus and grabbing your attention nowadays, obviously, you know, you've got everything that's going on with coin floor that we'll get into in a little bit.

I mean, the young crypto as well, or just within crypto. Yeah, within anything, to be honest. So one, there's so many things. So one, I think there's this global trend, and I'm trying to personally be part of it, and the team is part of it towards realizing it's the decentralization of everything.

So and the dematerialization, as some people would say, of everything. So our location is much less important. So I don't spend as much time in London as I used to, and I don't need to. I don't need to.

We know that we don't need to work from an office and as a company, you know, we become very pro remote working. And I think there's we've seen the benefits from that. And I don't think after the pandemic is over that that's going to change.

People are going to live in a more decentralized way, I would love to see the rebirths of villages and towns and so on where people have, but people are together not because they were born in the same time, but they were just, they've come together because they have similar

mindsets, similar philosophies, and they form, they form communities around that mobile community. So the return of the, of the nomad and the, the, the techno gypsy almost as it were people who were constantly, the constantly moving around while still maintaining relationships with people digitally and virtually.

So I'm doing that, our team's doing that, and I see more and more people doing that. So that's, that's really exciting for me. Just one, I can go, other things that are really exciting is, I was, I study computer science and cognitive science, which is basically AI before it was called the course way back

in the, in the dark ages when I was actually in university. And I'm really excited to see all the advances in that space. In particular, things that blur the line between reality and, and virtual reality, you've heard these announcements at the metaverse.

I was talking, tweeting about that a year ago and now Facebook is, is backtracking on its requirement, its desire to control this entire metaverse, but instead realize it needs to be part of it, it's, it's, it's fully backing open source solutions to that.

And basically ending development is always sort of closed, closed room systems. And I assume other companies are going to do the same. So this is going, this is the sort of logical end conclusion of the internet, going from 2D to 3D, and there's sort of no gap between where, where you, what you still will be living

in the real world in an area you love with people that you enjoy being around, but at the same time you can go to an office by just putting on a pair of glasses and you're there in the office with your work colleagues.

And, and I think that's really exciting. That is not possible though, without a decentralized money, which for me is, it makes Bitcoin even more exciting as well, because this is literally not possible for you to be anywhere in the world, interacting with people anywhere in your world, but seamlessly, unless you have

a decentralized store and a medium of, a value of medium exchange as well. You've been in this space for a while, you've been around technology for a long time, you've been in different industries within tech from our last conversations.

I wondered when you look out at this and you think about, well, are we going to have this metaverse? And obviously we know we've got Bitcoin and we've got layers above it that are going to make, hopefully, these transactions more possible.

If you were to try and put a timeline on it where, I'll just put an example out there. If I went, Oh, let's have this conversation. You can be wherever you are. I can be wherever I am. And we're literally sat as if we're together in the real world, and we're having this conversation

and I can look into your eyes and you can look into mine, how, how far do you think we are from that? Like, do you have any sort of idea? So mainstream or, or possible, if it's possible, there are answers today.

If you look at the research from Facebook, Oculus, I think they've now merged names. It might be called just Facebook Reality Labs. It was Oculus Labs. They were showing a year ago video of their research where you could have eye-to-eye conversations with some of another character.

It was an avatar, but it was photorealistic. You wouldn't have just tell them all the time, and it would maintain icon. But because it's an avatar, even though it looks and behaves like the real person, and if you show the real video against the computer-generated avatar video, you couldn't tell which one

was the avatar, which one was real. But because it was an avatar, they could move the eyes, so it was maintaining eye contact with you. Look, you were looking at the camera and it was real time scanning your face and creating a version.

It could adjust it so it looked like it was talking to you. Then there's another example, just earlier this year, Google revealed, I believe they call it Project Starline, and it looks like a video conferencing setup.

You've got a massive screen, they revealed that they lost Google I/O conference, and you have a massive screen, and one and a half meters in diameter, a big screen. You're sitting there at a desk in front of the screen, and the screen turns on, and someone

else is sitting at a similar desk somewhere else, different country could be in theory, but somewhere else, and they're in front of a similar looking desk, and they've also got a similar screen.

Then both videos turn on, but the difference between this and video conferencing is that actually what's happening is far more complex, but for you it's completely intuitive that taking multiple cameras in the screen are taking pictures of you, they create a 3D avatar

of you, but this screen is also ultra high resolution, and then that and the table in front of you, and then projecting it to the other person, and the screen that's projecting it to also has head tracking and so on, so as you move your head and make micro movements,

the image adjusts in line with that, so it looks like the person is sitting, so the end result of it looks like the person is sitting at the other side of the table in front of you. So you don't see the screen anymore, what you see is a table, and the person sitting

at the other side of the table, like in an interview room, and when you're in front of this screen it feels like the person is just there, a meter away from you, and that's an incredible effect, the sense of presence is that I'm just sitting in front of the table,

if I was in a room as you were saying, having a conversation, if you wanted to you could take a ball and throw it to me, it would bounce off the screen and come back and hit you in the head, but other than that, the person's there, and you're with them and they're with

you, and this is real now, now, for that to get to the point where it's in everybody's room, generally looking at the power of the ability for technology to advance, cost to go down exponentially, and pressing power to increase, I would say by 2030 this is something

that is well before that, so this is going to be an incredibly impactful century, not just for Bitcoin, but for AI and for VR, they're all heading towards this technology, technological singularity that has been prophesied by multiple futures, so it is, and for me, I think 2030 is the deadline.

So interesting, because when you speak to people, they're like, "Oh, you can never teleport, physically it's impossible," but if what you're saying is right, and if before 2030 this kind of stuff's possible, you can effectively teleport with all of your wealth

in your head, you can go anywhere in the world and see anyone in the world and converse with anyone in the world, and have all the information at your fingertips, you effectively are teleporting, like, yeah, your own physical body is still elsewhere, but everything that you need is

where you want it to go, like, it's so fucking crazy, and like you say, with having Bitcoin in that mix, the possibilities become endless, really. Yeah, I mean, fundamentally, I might start frightening people, but I've had this recurring vision from being, from very young, that at some point I will be able to somehow transform

and be dream, it was various dreams, I used to lose a dream, and they could be very different, some of them were sci-fi dreams, some of them were magical, mystery, sort of, Lord of the Rings like dreams, some of them were related to Indiana Jones like adventures, but they'd

always end in the same way no matter how they started, I'll discover some artefact or figure out some sort of magical spell or create some sort of type of device, technological device that would allow me to transfer my consciousness into a form, an energy form, it could be magic,

it could be an energy computer, energy created, construct computer, but I download my consciousness into this and the end result would be that, effectively, now looking back, what I was dreaming was the dematerialization of self, and so the question is, this is where it starts to get

really deep, but what are you, your mind and your consciousness and your thoughts, or are you your body, and if your body, if you, you know, you chop off a nail, have I lost some of my body, is that also me, or if I lose a finger, is that me, at what point are you,

most people say our thoughts and experiences are us, but if we can separate ourselves ultimately from ourselves, from our physical, then we dematerial, that's the last thing to do, dematerialize, now that may be, I don't think that's 20-30 for that, but what we can do is get to the

point where other than our body which, you know, you need a place to live, and you need a sanitation and food, et cetera, but for all of our experiences we've talked to friends and family and so on, by all means, and I actually am a great, you know, believer in

rediscovery, the, the joy of the outdoors, and hiking and so on, and spending time with people in person, especially with lockdown, but I think for other than these very close, you know, relationships with people that you share common beliefs with or family or very

very close friends, for everyone else, if I'm just going shopping or I want to just go into the office to work, or so on, or whatever it may be, I need to do some networking, I think the need for that to be in person would be get less and less and less and less, and

if you have a choice to spend more time with the people that you've chosen to spend time with or spend more time with everyone else, I think people are going to choose, and we're seeing this happen, if you just look at what happens on Twitter or so on, we're seeing

this transition, it's messy right now, but then to transition to these micro groups where people are forming their own groups of where they have common interests and so on, it's happening, it naturally happens when the technology allows it, it just, we're just going through

this messy transition at the moment, but I think eventually we'll end up in this new decentralized society with millions of micro, or hundreds of thousands, if not millions of micro groups, and you can also personally be members of multiple micro groups, you can

be member of the, of the anime geek's micro group, that'd be one of mine, for example, but I'll also be clearly, I'll be in a Bitcoin, Bitcoin micro group, although I'll be a pretty big group, I think that'd be a very close group, if not everybody on the planet, and

I'll be also a member of the, you know, sci-fi nerds group, you know, and Apple Pie, Apple Crumble lovers group as well, you know, Apple crumble, that's the favourite dessert, is it? Oh, that would be a complete podcast on itself, but just on Apple Crumbles, right,

but yeah, Apple crumble desserts in general, I mean, the most important course of any meal is the dessert. It cannot be more of a skipped. One question I have for that on Apple Pie, and we can save that for another podcast, happy to do a full podcast on desserts as well,

are you a custard lover or are you an ice cream lover? Ooh, so I was a born and bred custard, custard lover, yeah, but, but maybe it's spending more time in Europe, it's the equivalent of mayonnaise versus ketchup. I have learnt to appreciate ice cream as well,

that's a diplomatic answer. Both custard and ice cream nowadays. Fair enough, I used to be the other way. But I couldn't even fight and talk in the past, but now it's a human suggestion, but now I accept both. I like it. Taking it back to the, you know, what we're

talking about with the dematerialising of the physical self. If you take it to the extreme, I suppose what you're really saying is that you could effectively, if you are your thoughts and you are your experiences, you're not your body, then as the body inevitably ages and

dies, you could potentially live on. And then because you're not tied to anything organic any more necessarily, you could effectively live forever. I think that's reasonable to assume that that could happen at some point. I think my one concern would be who owns that

data and who holds the keys to that data. And so maybe that's something that ties in with Bitcoin is that you don't want to be uploading all of this information and your thoughts and your memories and dreams and, and all the rest of it. And then that's stored

by like Google, and they start messing around with it or not allowing you to access certain parts or changing parts of the memories. Because that sounds very, very scary to me. Yeah, even while it's property, property of Facebook, or your property of Facebook. No,

no, no offence to Facebook, but no thanks. It would be very scary and it would have to be self-sovereign. By definition, you should own yourself. I mean, that's the one of any thing that you show yourself is one of those things. Now, even beyond your value, you should

own your, your sort of the crude value through hard work and enterprise, beyond that, yourself should be, you should own yourself. And otherwise, if you don't own yourself, by definition, you're a slave because they, they, they don't have ownership of their self. And so without

a mechanism to store this in a self-sovereign way, you, you will be in trouble. So early on, before the idea of the blockchain when I was a kid, I wasn't thinking about that. I just assumed it would be this sort of individual thing, it would be this energy, it would still

be an individual thing made out of energy and you'd somehow transfer your consciousness to it. So if this thing was destroyed, you would be destroyed. What, what Bitcoin shutters is as a way to have self-sovereignty, but still having it decentralized and, and still

being one thing, like one balance, whereas, but still also distributed and decentralized at the same time. And so that would still lead you to being in ownership of yourself, but provides far more resilience as well, well, increasing, reducing your, imagine this world.

I mean, again, we're getting very far in the future now, this is not 2030, but imagine this world where you don't have to worry about these physical concerns. I mean, Maslow's hierarchy of needs will be turned on its face. Your, your fear of your need for basic living,

the basic elements of living. So I food, water, sustenance, physiological needs, that would go. Then your needs for safety would go because there's nothing to attack. You know, it's its information. You can't attack the number one, you can't attack the number 200, you

know, it just doesn't make sense to attack information as it were. Although we are starting to see it. Well, what we're seeing is people attempting to attack it. And I, I really, and this is, for example, the infrastructure bill and so on, I personally may feel that I'd like

to see these things go through. I don't think we need to form industry bodies to try and stop them. Maybe in the past when Bitcoin was less mature, but with the latest news of Bitcoin mining difficulty going up for the second mining adjustment in a row after the

China mining ban, we've seen that Bitcoin is now, we knew it already, but we've now seen it for the world to see that Bitcoin is China mining ban proof. And as a result, confidence goes up with Bitcoin, you can't, China can't ban mining twice. It's done it. It's gone.

So now with this infrastructure bill amendment, as he was originally proposed, whether by accident or whether by design, it would lead to an effective ban on Bitcoin mining, but unlike China, where you were given zero days to stop, you would be given two years, minus

be given two years in the US. What do you bet that they would continue mining after two years just in a different jurisdiction? That's ages of time in Bitcoin to be able to set up shop somewhere else. And if you have to move to less comfortable places, that's not

going to stop anybody. People mine coal or extract oil or gas from some of the most dangerous places on the planet in some of the coldest places in the middle of the sea in countries, which some of them are war torn or very dangerous. But there is no, I might not do it, you might

not do it, but there's no shortage of people who are more than happy to do that because it's lucrative and it makes money. And people who want to do it. And if it's by my US, the money will make just goes up even further. So it's a guarantee that people will continue

to want to mine these currencies, but it will just decentralize more. All the people that the only people are going to lose out from that. As I wrote about this this last week, the only it's how the West was lost. Yeah, it's the rest of the world that will benefit

from that. So, you know, if you're going to keep going to aim to kill a king, make sure you don't miss and ban on mining by China. Probably the second most powerful country in the world missed and it's growing. And in fact, the rate is growing has accelerated

from lost, lost in my difficulty adjustment. So it's growing. You as trying to do it now, it wouldn't take a for two years. And it's like got no chance of having that same effect. And when it actually happens, if I don't help it does, then a period of time people will

see that it's that people will move out, they'll move to other countries which are very happy to accept them in the global South Africa, Southeast Asia, South Southern Europe, South America. These will accept these people who are tax paying job creating to high value job

creating entrepreneurs with open arms. And they will benefit, they will be a huge transfer world from the global house that the global have not. So I welcome that. And if anybody doesn't want that to happen, and they want Bitcoin not to show an evidence that its censorship

resistant and build up its anti fragility, although that word, given messy type of leave is becoming our first use. Yeah, just a bit. And then the nation tried to lobby regulators to put in policies to dampen down the regulation. But all they're doing is slowing down Bitcoin's

path towards hegemony. And I personally, I'm patient, so I don't mind. But I, but, you know, I don't think that we need to, we're at the point where it's already mature enough, we don't need to protect it so much anymore, it needs to be given it take off the training

wheels and let it go. It's slowing down the inevitable, isn't it really? Because it's become very, very clear that there's sort of two forces. And one is they're trying to ban information, they're trying to stop people from moving, they're trying to centralize as

much power and as much information as they possibly can. And then you've got this other force where we're trying to decentralize everything as much as we can allow information to move as freely as possible. Also with these technologies, you're talking about that come

in the future, even if travel is restricted from governments, you might not be able to travel so freely in the physical realm, but you will be virtually is very obvious which one wins. And I think you're right, trying to lobby and trying to mess around with the

old systems and politicians and trying to play in their world, play their game, you're never going to win. It's just slowing things down. So I'd be with you, I would say, yeah, fuck it, let's just let this thing play out and focus on building out the network and

just completely ignore that old system and just move forward because, you know, we know which one wins. We know which one. The question is, I mean, this is a this is a fire and if it's, you know, if it's Tinder right now, I'm not talking about the date now, if it's

Tinder right now and there's some smoke coming out and you've been rubbing your hands together and with the little Kindle and it's just kindling and it's just said a lie. Someone bringing a bucket of water is to the to the to the bonfire is not going to it's going to lead

to a bad day for for that initial flame. However, you know, 12 years have gone by now in five months time, four months time. Bitcoin will be 13 years old. It will be a teenager and a rebellious one. Yeah, it's going to be this precocious teenager and it's already flexing

its muscles. If you give it another five years and it's and it's a young adult, then it's absolutely, it's a done deal. But my view is, it's already strong enough to stand. It's really previously strong enough to stand China. Who's left? You know, who's left? The next

level would be the United States and this infrastructure bill could be that example and it's actually quite a the timelines are quite long two years to sort of get your act together is much more than China gave us. And beyond that, you'll need a consolidated global organized

attempt to to displace Bitcoin. And at that stage, though, you're seeing people are starting to see the benefits it gives. This is this is going to succeed because it's decentralized systems. If you look in nature, last longer, then centralized ones. They just do, you know,

and there aren't animals, whether it's just one of them, one of the species and no variation and so on, it wouldn't last very long. So decentralized systems will succeed just because it's just architecturally, if you're building a computer system, you know that a decentralized

system will be more reliable and be able to stand more issues than a centralized one. There are numerous examples of when a centralized versus decentralized systems go against each other. Centralized ones can seem to work for a while, but the decentralized ones ultimately

prevail. And we're going to see that. And it's and every day I'm here, I feel blessed because it's just such an interesting space. And, you know, whatever I can do to help towards that, I try to do because that's the main challenge, I think for Bitcoin, it's not technology,

it's not regulation, it's not all these things, it will adapt and so and respond if regulation is put in place. That's that's firm, but fair, people who are running businesses around Bitcoin will adapt. If it's not if it's unfair, then it would just be impossible to adapt like

with the infrastructure bill. But if it's feasible to adapt to it, they will adapt to it. But the biggest risk has always been to do with the philosophy, cryptocurrencies are a whole, and specifically Bitcoin is actually forget, cryptocurrencies just Bitcoin. Really,

it's a whole new way of thinking. And that's actually what separates it from other cryptocurrencies because often they're the same way of thinking, but just dressed up with tech. Bitcoin is a completely new way of thinking, it's a whole philosophy. And that philosophy is what makes

it bulletproof. Because if, and if we can maintain and that philosophy, and that's what people like you do, memes to Bitcoin, memesters, and, and everybody in a community who understands the core tenets of Bitcoin, we can just instill those into people's minds at those philosophies

and those, and those tenets will just allow you to protect you from any potential attack, whether it's physical or psychological or political. For example, understanding the importance of sound money, why you should have a product with fixed supply and why that's important,

and having a philosophy that you should have, you should focus on sound money and the philosophy of low time preference. Again, this is where a lot of cryptocurrencies go wrong. They try to build this, they try to focus on the philosophy of, of high time preference, try and get everything

today, even if it means making compromises to your basic core principles. Bitcoin focus on low time preference, never sacrifice your principles for the sake of time. It will all come in time, and if you do this the right way and methodically serve and steady, you

will win the race. So that's a really important one which separates Bitcoin from almost all other cryptocurrencies, low time preference. The philosophy of decentralization and censorship resistance are core, core, core features, and obviously we said they said the fixed supply.

Those three things again philosophically cannot be negotiated. They need to be maintained at all costs. Again, other almost all other cryptocurrencies make sacrifice or compromises there. Bitcoin does not. These things and this philosophy, if you maintain this philosophy, if there's

a bug in Bitcoin, you just correct the bug ultimately. Now we avoid bugs, but we'll just correct it. If there is an attack, it will not succeed because you cannot attack Bitcoin as a technology ultimately because if there's any bug, you're correct it and the rest is

just numbers and you can't attack the number seven. You can't attack the number 21. It just doesn't make sense to be able to do that. But what you can do is make people who are users of the technology believe that you can attack the number seven. As long as they understand

what this system does and the fact that they're understanding of that makes them bulletproof. People can say whatever they want and they can never attack Bitcoin because they're trying to attack. They'll have to explain why you can attack a number ultimately. Please explain

to me why you can attack the number seven. Because any Bitcoin address, for example, is a number, a very, very long number ultimately. What do you have to tell me? How is it possible to attack that? You can prevent the number seven existing. You can stop it. It's literally,

once people understand that, they recognize that. There's no go back here. The genie's at the bottle and it's going to be an awesome ride. For sure. That social layer that you're talking about, Bitcoiners, are unyielding. Certainly, the ones that I spend my time speaking to, they're very, very principled. Trying to attack

these people is not wise. The way that they're working at the moment, especially, is very helpful to one another. Find ways around things. If people want to try and create fud, it's dealt with. I think there's only so long that it can go on for. Obviously, Bitcoin is very

confusing and new and different. You look at the two sides and you have one side screaming and shouting, making very little sense and then just saying science after it. Basically, confusing the general public and trying to brainwash the general public. You can't argue

with facts. I think that's over time it's going to become more and more obvious. Like you said, as this bounces back after what's happening in China and as it becomes more usable and as the world around everyone gets more and more crazy and controlled, the grip

tightens, I do think that anyone with not even half a brain, just a few brain cells left, will realize and they will go, "Yeah, maybe these people have got something." When they do and they come asking, there's so much content. There's so many ways that they can get onboarded.

Everything is there at their fingertips and if they only look and so I do think that's going to happen. I've found it like when I've onboarded a few people onto coin floor, it tends to actually be at the moment. It tends to be more like boomerang people who have

seen or start to understand that their pensions aren't going to be quite as they were told and they're starting to feel a bit uneasy about some of the stuff that's going on in the world. Once I've onboarded them and explained the core principles of Bitcoin and they've got

a few sats in their hand, they start to get really interested and asking questions, maybe not so much the tech stuff, but they really start to get it relatively quickly and that's something I've only seen over the last six months and also just that onboarding experience

being a bit more simple. I used to try with them like, "Oh, let's set up BISC and then let's get you a hardware waller and let's do all this sort of stuff." And to be honest, it just doesn't fucking work because they're just like, "No, I don't understand. This is

too much for me." Getting them onboarded and just buying some sats starts to rewire their brain very, very quickly. I think this is actually great. The community has zero give. The ultimate is to own your own, to have self custody of your own Bitcoin because it's not your keys, not your coins,

and that is the case. But being pragmatic and understanding the objective is to take people through a journey. The first thing is to get them to regularly buy in a, this is still by a everyday person's point of view, a speculative risky asset. If they're completely new, they

won't understand it and they're going to have to view this speculative risky asset. So that is the fact they're not going to come in and think it's not a risky asset. They're going to be worried. And so the best way for entering into any speculative asset, and that's

not just Bitcoin, it's stocks as well, especially waller tell stocks, is to not put in your life savings, but to put in a smaller amount, ideally one that you wouldn't feel too uncomfortable if it went and you just put it in regularly every month, every few days or so on. No matter

what happens to the price. Now this is a couple of things. One, it means that the price is volatile, but evens out because you're buying regularly. One, and two, you're immediately introducing people to one of the philosophies of Bitcoin, low time preference. So they're

learning to wait patiently and see this thing build up their balance of Bitcoin build up over time safely. And it also means that they're less fearful if there are big price movements. The price goes up. It's great because they're buying every few days anyway. So they'll be

getting some of that and they bought when it was low. The price goes down not too bad because also again, they're going to get it at the lower price. So it evens out. The challenge roof, a large purchase is if it then goes down immediately, they're into fear mode because

they've been throughout their life, been used to and often have a high time preference. So they want to see it all return the following day. So that immediately gives them one of the tenants. Now, self sovereignty is another one, but that takes more time for people to

learn. And to be honest, if they've got 20 pounds worth of Bitcoin, it's, for real doesn't make economic sense for them to spend, you know, 50, 60 pounds on a hardware wallet to store 20 pounds with Bitcoin. But at some point, it gets above a certain amount. And

also they've now built confidence in the system because naturally, once you start to own Bitcoin, you start to understand it and learn it, learn more about it. And then they'll realize, hmm, I have this on an exchange. Maybe it makes sense to take it off the exchange and customize

myself. At that point, it makes sense to offer them services to make that easy for them. That's something we're looking into as well. We've made, you know, we personally have made a coin for the onboarding process really, really easy. We just announced a couple of

days ago that we are, if you, we're, we've changed our pricing model to incentive, it's not just half, more than half fees across the board for the mobile app, for this user. But if you are choosing to buy regularly, i.e. dollar cost average, we've bought a buy.

Then over time, you'll be rewarded to the point where you're paying zero fees on that after a period of 12 months of regular buying. Okay. So to, because we're trying to incentivize this sort of low time preference, long term thinking type mindset. But in future as well,

we're adding features to make the withdrawing from the app easier. And we're going to continue to work on that as well. It's like, how can we make it so that people can withdraw in a way which is disruptively simple for them. So they feel confident withdrawing. So we

made signing up, disruptively easy buying and owning easy because we've, we've, we've believe, done across everything is the easiest way you set it up. And then you never need to think about it. And then the only thing that people may think about fees, we've also

dealt with that, if you're willing to take a low time preference, which you think is good for you as well as a customer. And then finally, we're going to look at how do we make it disruptively easy for people to withdraw. So that's another thing we're investigating

now, no product to announce right now or service. But that's again, the whole journey we're looking at. I know there's nothing to announce, but you're thinking sort of a hand holding way that someone can feel comfortable or you're thinking actually technology to do it.

Well, I think reality is with all these things, it's a combination of two. So we're looking at multiple things and it depends on the person what they find difficult about it. It could be the fees that some people find difficult. It could be the complexity that others. So

the right solution for different people withdrawing it actually is, in a way, the most, the most complex of the three, because the ways in which people want to withdraw are going to be very, very different. The ways they want to buy it are going to be the same. They're

all going to send it generally from a bank account to us. And then they're holding it's a store of value. They all want to hold it in the same way. It doesn't really matter the amount. But we're drawing, they might want very small amounts and pretty fast. They

might want to do certain things with that and have low fees because they're small amounts, larger amounts. They've been willing to add a little bit longer. And if it's early on in the first time, they might want help. So we want to provide easy to access solutions

for all of that so that they can, because we do realize after years of trying that getting people to do the last step is the hardest, i.e. becoming self-sovereign. And it takes a bit more than, well, I don't think anybody's cracked it right now. So I think that's still

something that needs to be worked on. We're going to try. I'm sure everybody else is trying and I welcome as many people to try as possible, because this is not just about me or about Coin4. This is about helping as many people as safely as we can get access

to probably the most impactful innovation when it comes to the story and the value that we have seen for a century. And that's the mission and we want to try and do that as much as we possibly can for as long as we possibly can.

And it's interesting because, obviously, this being a very privacy-focused show. I get a bit of not abuse, but people will be like, "Oh, well, how can you have an exchange that you recommend to people when you're talking about privacy and security?" And to me, I'm

not so extreme that I don't see value in it, because there are people, quite a few people now, where I just literally wouldn't feel comfortable trying to get them to take self-custody, because they're fucking retarded. I'm sorry, there's no other way to put it. They just

don't know how to use technology. They would fuck it up. They'd lose their seed phrases. They'd cause all sorts of problems. There's no way I could teach them how to use something like this, but they're nice people and they deserve to store their value. They don't deserve

to be stolen from. And so what I then can say is, well, go onto coin floor and then start building up your balance, like you say, get to learn about it. I'll give them some podcasts to listen to, give them some things to read through. And then at some point, you

know, percentage of them will probably never come off and they'll just want to keep their coins on forever. A percentage will take them off and another percentage of them will go fully down the rabbit hole and really start investigating this sort of stuff. And I think

what I don't like is the hard line where people say, if they can't work it out, then they don't deserve to buy Bitcoin. Or, well, if you can't do it 100% privately and you don't use it with no KYC, then it's not worth doing. I don't think that's right. I came

in in that way. I came in through a KYC service. I was using Ledger, which now I'd never touch in all these sort of things. And there is an order to this. And I think everyone deserves to have a go and everyone deserves to store their value. And so what do you think about

that kind of hard line approach where people are like, well, you know, these exchanges just shouldn't exist. Like, where do you sit with all of that? Well, I mean, at some point down the line, whether it's Amazon or El Salvador or so on, if you read the rumors or the announcements, at some point Bitcoin will be shown to be

pervasive announcement in parts of the world or worldwide. So it could be, you could live off Bitcoin. You never need to convert. At that stage, especially in particular, so that we'll have to start earning Bitcoin. So the eventual point is it will be a choice

for people to whether they ever convert Bitcoin. And I think we're seeing at the high end of some of the larger holders, you know, for a long time, are starting to see a world where they're noticing that people just have no intention to, they don't believe they're ever

going to exit out of crypto. And in many cases, ever going to exit out Bitcoin for no material amount anyway of their earnings. And I think where the early adopters go, everyone else will follow, they're just like four or five years behind. So in that world reality is,

and that could take, you know, 10, 15 years, in that world, the need for exchanges just will naturally go or reduce significantly. So if you're that hard line person and you want that to happen sooner rather than later. Yeah, again, we should have a low time per

transition of mind either way. But if you did want that to happen, then you should be doing things that will help accelerate that process, getting that process accelerated by more people having access to Bitcoin. However, they have access in the first place, it accelerates

the end state. And in the end state, these questions will go away anyway. But if that process takes longer, then we're just going to have this messy transition of your stations and pro state for longer. That's that's my view. So what are you focused on? You focus

on today, we focus on the long term, really, the what's going to be the situation in 10, 15 years time. So that's also a different way of approaching it. But then beyond that, I, in the short term, I agree with you in that not your keys, not your coins. But what

we can do is provable solvency. And it just, you know, it's good to see that bit mix is also announced that they are doing provable solvency as well, where they we've been doing it for, you know, eight years, but they've started doing it, they're going to regularly

prove their reserves or Bitcoin, in that case, multiple cryptos. But I think they only actually still only custody Bitcoin. They just have derivatives in other cryptos. But actually they're doing this place of Bitcoin. So they're going to show there is a big coin. And as we've

been doing, so it's not the same as you custody itself, absolutely. But at least we're giving more transparency while you're custody with us. And the other thing is, which is very important is just philosophy, we are committed to trying to find ways of making it easier

for people to withdraw. And again, we are constantly public about our view that remind you that you should try and withdraw. And then we're looking, as I say, we're looking at adding products and services to make it easier for people to try to withdraw. That's

what we try to do. And this is a challenging one because revenue wise, there's so many easy ways off for multiple altcoins, multiple leverage and so on to get people to keep their money in the world garden. But we want to provide services for world people feel more

comfortable trusting us in themselves with their capital, but always make it easy for people to withdraw and also try to educate people about the importance of self custody. And that's the best we can do. But if the alternative is well, unless you can self custody, then

you shouldn't be in crypto at all. And you shouldn't be in Bitcoin at all. Then it's fine to tell our view because we want people with those sort of strong philosophical views, but they have to understand that they're just going to take longer to get the end step that we all want to see.

It takes longer. And also like the way our view is humans are very tribal. So it's like, when someone doesn't own bit, you say 90% of the world doesn't own Bitcoin, then there's some sort of law where it's like, Oh, we're either going to really come down and tax

Bitcoiners like a disgusting amount, or we're going to take away their freedoms, or we're going to come and try and 60 102 them or whatever fuckery governments come up with. If 90% of the people have had no exposure, because we've been a bit snooty and said, Oh, well, if they

can't work out how to use a decentralized exchange, or if they can't work out how to use coin join, or if they can't work out how to self custody, then fuck them. Well, they're going to do the same to us. And they're just going to go, I don't give a shit. Yeah, yeah,

take that Bitcoin. I don't care. Fuck them. Oh, they were lucky. They've, they've made a load of money doing nothing set on their ass. They're a loaded drug dealers. They're a load of whatever else. And I think you want to have as many people on your side and understand

this technology as possible. And the quickest way to get them to understand this technology is to come on board and hold some. So that's why I take a bit of more approach where I'm somewhere in the middle is like, yeah, you want to try and get people to be as hard line

as possible eventually. But there is a process to this. And we do need to do some hand holding. And that's why I appreciate what you guys do. And it has been helpful with times like, you know, a couple of booms that I've got on board have had to jump on the phone with Brad because

they couldn't work something out. And they've come off the phone and they've gone, wow, that was amazing service. Wow, that was incredible. I was like, yeah, you don't get that service that you'll bank do you? And they're like, no, I do not. And I was like, yeah, there you

are. This is the future. And so it's something they can relate to, you know, you don't have a customer service if you're using the other services. Yeah, I think, I think it's very interesting though, about if it's 10% versus 50% if we can 51% attack, the in terms of the population in terms of ownership, even if they own very

small amounts, it's once you own something, even if it's five pence worth of it, you have a sense of engagement. And it starts becoming hard for, we know a lot of these arguments are just not accurate or ill-founded, but it starts becoming hard to make the arguments

when you're saying, okay, I saw drug dealers, okay, so this sort of doctor is a drug dealer. And also this, well, they actually are drug dealers in that sort of place. And I was also going to, the next example would be like a priest, but then I just watched Ozox season

2. That's good that she owes that. But the point is that more and more people who are your neighbours, respect it for the community, friends, family, children, siblings, as they

start to own Bitcoin, these arguments will inevitably look more and more ridiculous right now. Because it's a minority, minorities throughout history, you can make claims and they don't have the resources or the manpower to defend against those claims. But unlike

other minorities that have sort of physical limits on their ability to grow, Bitcoin owners as a minority can become a majority, just making sure as many other people as possible own even 20p of worth of Bitcoin. And so that's, I think what we should try to do, figure out

ways to increase ownership of Bitcoin. Because that's the beginning. That's the real sort of gateway to the next stage. And we're trying to do our part. I know you are trying to do your part, memes are trying to do their part. And yeah, just look back and say are you trying

to do your part? Because you should not forget the principles, but we should also understand that it's a journey. When you're eating at a table, you should use a certain amount of manners. When you're walking around the street generally in most societies you walk around

and close on. But when it's a baby or a toddler, you don't immediately land bust them or kick them out on the street because they're crawling around naked or throwing a food. Because this is when someone has just started, they might look like they're 30 years old or whatever.

And they have a high paying job or they've been supporting their family for years in their job. But when it comes to crypto, they're still a child. They're just a baby. They've just seen it only a few days ago. And also remember, they're running, they're living

their life. They don't have the bandwidth and resources to go in the bunny hole that you have. And they have to also understand that so that it amplifies the fact that even if they could understand it at the time, they just don't have the time. There's a many things

out there that could be interesting and useful in poor people's understand. They just don't have the time. So recognize those two things and recognize that they're babies who are who, when it comes to crypto, and they need to go for a learning process. Now, tools are available

to make it quicker, but add to the tools, add to help, add time and support them in understanding this process slowly and carefully. Yeah, definitely. And we're casting our net out further and further because this is more useful to more people, especially with what's going on in the world now. And what will continue

with people's currencies being devalued and freedoms being taken away, it's becoming more useful to more people. I wondered if you've seen, you know, we're talking about difficulty adjustment changing numbers wise, you starting to see a difference with the demographic that

are being interested or just a sheer numbers of people who are starting to get involved. I imagine you have quite a unique insight given running an exchange of access to the store. Yeah. But the thing is with exchanges, figures are ununiquely compared to other financial

institutions are much more public and immediate. So you see trade volumes, you see, you can see on chain transactions. So you can see deposits coming in and out. So if you wanted to in your analyst, you could figure all this sort of stuff out. But ultimately, what's

interesting is two things. I think the mouse being traded on exchanges are going up interest in in downloading app has significantly increased. So seeing more and more retail users wanting to get in the demographics are all over the place. So it's, it's like anybody who has,

who's interested in holding onto their value, which is everybody, you know, if you do anything of value and you want it to sort of, you want to hold onto it, you're going to be interested in something like Bitcoin. The question is how long to take you personally to get that

point when you realize that's what it's about. And that has some effect, but actually becomes more and more widespread and more and more people are seen to be owning it using it and it's more and more being accepted. Then, then, then people spend time to understand it increases.

But ultimately, we expect to see the demographics to be very, very broad. But then what's interesting on the other side is we're constantly seeing the amount that people want to custody on exchanges going down. So again, this is naturally happening. If people figure out, they go for

a journey and they figure out that self custody is quite an important aspect. And so which again, it's really interesting. And also on top of that, you've got multiple companies who are working really hard to make it easier and easier and easier for people to self custody, harder wallet

manufacturers and the like. So it's, it's just, I mean, just extrapolate, really just extrapolate, it's getting, is it easier to self custody today than it was yesterday and here we go one.

So why do you think it's going to go in the next year? Is it going to be easier or harder? Just ask yourself a question. Easy. And a year after that, easier. Where does that end? It goes from wherever it is to now to some point, most people consider it to be easy. That's, that's one

thing. And if it's easy to self custody, and then the cost and speed to transfer is they're getting faster or slower. It's getting faster and cheaper. So where do you think it's going to be any year's time, even faster and even cheaper? Where does that end? It ends up being very fast

and very cheap. You know, so you just keep extrapolating. And I think a lot of people have trouble extrapolating because they're so focused on, and it's the reason why they focus on dealing with the day to day life. And they don't have time to think about that. They focus on their,

their work, their loved ones, COVID and dealing with all of that, craziness and whatever it may be, and they don't have time. But if you sit down and ask to extrapolate, it's obvious it's going to be, it's a technology. It's going to get easier. It's going to get faster. It's going to get

cheaper to use and transact with. And it's going to be more and more adopted. All these things are going in one direction. So you just extrapolate. The question is, is it six months or six years?

But that's a different question of where it's going to end up. So that's, that's all happening. It's really exciting. I say it's a lot, but it's, it for me, I think going back to, there was this event I had to do in, in the Royal Festival Hall, where those people from around the

city and members of the public was like an art installation, an educational art installation. They would come in and talk to us. And this was in 2015, 16, and we represented Bitcoin. We had the Bitcoin table and people would come along and they had five minutes to talk to us,

ask questions. And like people just didn't really understand what it was about. We were trying to educate. And it was, so they went away with a better understanding. But where we were there, where we were just these people who were just sort of on a soap or explain this is going to be

really interesting to now seeing so much change and the speed of change rapidly increasing. It's an amazing, amazing feeling. And I, I think now we're continuing to do our part, but I also think that it's got its own momentum. It's gone beyond, it's gone beyond any one organization

to individually be essential for its success or to be able to be capable of, of pausing it. If China, the next step, China can't pause it. No other company, no individual company can, and vice versa. But we have to be humble and realize that vice versa. We, I'm doing my part now,

but now that the vehicle's got its own momentum and it's going by itself, I want to continue to part along with the ride and I'll help scoop up more people into the, into this sort of juggernaut.

But, but it's far bigger than any of us and we should stay humble about that and just keep enjoying and keep pushing as much as we can. For sure. Well, I certainly appreciate what you guys are doing and helping on board more and more people, helping them understand this technology

and save themselves from having their value stolen. And I also really appreciate what you've done for me and supporting this show, which has allowed me to push out more content, allowed me to help more people. And yeah, it's, it's very much appreciated. So thanks for everything

that you do, mate. It's, it's really great. So thank you. Thank you for keeping on educating people. I mean, we're fortunate enough. We're very lucky because of, you know, combination of studying computer science and then having the right friends at the right time who posted the

right links to me way back, you know, a decade ago now. And if I hadn't received those things, if I didn't have the spare moment at a time to see it, I would have missed this completely. That's just pure luck. And people in retrospect tried to make it sound like it was all skill, but a large

part of it was just luck of being in the right place in the right time. Yeah, you need to capitalize on it. But if you never heard of it at the right point, you, you could have missed it completely.

So that being the case, I'm recognizing that I want to have many people at least to have heard about it, to be educated about it in the correct way, to educate about Bitcoin in the correct way.

So that, that is no longer an excuse. And I think what you're doing, what many of the people in the UK community are doing and the European community and worldwide in terms of education people is incredibly valuable. And I'm just really, really, really happy and proud to be a small,

really small part of that. And long may you continue to do to create this really, really incredible podcast. And so thank you very much. Well, I know you have another meeting to get onto, but it's always a pleasure speaking to you.

You've got my mind ticking about teleporting. And maybe in 2030, we can go and have a few drinks in virtual reality or something like that. But yeah, it's got my mind ticking. And yeah, once again, thank you. And I hope you speak again soon at 250 k. No problem. Talk to you later, mate. Cheers, I'll see you in the next video.