One million dollar BTC is pointless without freedom.

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rap poison.

The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Alright you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows the Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in this space and deliver to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Welcome back everyone. Today's guest is Anon Tony or Anon Tony.

I'm not sure exactly how you pronounce it. A really interesting guy. We look in a lot of the same telegram channels and have similar interests within privacy and security. He's really cool.

He's got some very interesting perspectives. And I think you're going to really enjoy it. Before we dive in, I want to say thank you to CoinFallingUK for sponsoring the show. If anyone hasn't listened to my episode with Obie, that was the last episode.

Go and have a listen. He is CoinFloor's CEO. He is a proper Bitcoiner. And I'm very, very happy to be on board with them. If you haven't used them before and you're looking to buy weekly, monthly or daily, you can use the code in the show notes below.

And you'll get a 30% discount off your fees. Next up is crypto cloaks. Crypto cloaks are my new sponsors. And as you'll all know from Bitcoin Twitter, they make the coolest 3D printed stuff out there.

They've got blockmits. They've got personalised node cases. And much, much more. Check them out at crypto cloaks.com. Enjoy the show. Hello. Hello, mate. How are you? I'm doing well. No, I'm pleased to be chatting with you today.

It's been a crazy couple of weeks. I've been all over the place, probably doing stuff. But I'm glad that we finally get to sit down and have a quick chat. Yeah, me too. Me too. So where have you been?

Anything that you can say without doxing yourself? Yeah, sure. I mean, it's kind of public. I went to DEFCON. That's the biggest hacking conference in the world. I was kind of bummed because they enforced the back to passport things.

And if you didn't have that proof, then you couldn't get in. Which is kind of nonsensical because, like at least the counterculture hacking conference. It doesn't make any sense, but it really happened.

And the fun thing is that I don't know, two or three months before the get-go, they were like, yeah, we're saying that we're going to enforce it just to make it look like we're legit or whatever to avoid the massive spreader or bend, whatever that means.

But we're not going to actually enforce it. And like two or three weeks before, everything changed, like, no, we're going to enforce it. And I was like, no, that still came through. And even though I couldn't properly enjoy the conference, it was fun because it kind of

backfired because all the all the people that did not get the bags were just hanging out in Vegas. And it was fun. It was a good time. The Monero community have been putting together Monero Village for three consecutive years.

Now this year, the goons, the organizers of the con say, nope, you cannot go through with Monero Village. You need to figure out a name. In the end, they resolved to go under cryptocurrency village, the hacking conference.

I don't know. It was a little bit disorganized. It was a little bit like, I don't know, discouraging. But it is what it is. And I'm sorry that I keep mentioning Monero that I keep talking about Monero.

I guess your focus can get canceled now. I don't care. My views on Monero are like, it's useful. It's a tool that's useful. And I don't give a fuck what people use. I don't give a fuck what people invest in.

I don't give a fuck what people do. I just do my own thing that makes sense to me. And as long as no one pushes their beliefs or ideas on me, then I don't care. So it is a bit of a funny one because in this space, it's very easy for people to start attacking you and you're called a shill and all the rest of it.

I would use Monero if I needed to for privacy. And it's not something I've used before. It is something I've owned before and it's not something I currently own. But when people start telling people what they can and can't do, it kind of goes against the whole movement in my eyes.

This is about fuck you money. And this is about literally being able to say fuck you, I do what I want. So yeah, I'm open to whatever people want to use. Don't care. Yeah, yeah, and they don't realize that if we go to the core ethos of Bitcoin, it's about free open source software.

So you should be letting anybody to take their own decisions and do with their time and with their money as they see fit. If they want to invest everything into Ripple or something like that or Stellar or whatever that's their entire life, that's their expense, that's everything.

Just let them be. I also don't really attack people who have been vaccinated even though I'm not. And I don't attack people who invest in things I don't agree with. It really doesn't matter what other people do.

As long as they're not harming you, we should really worry about ourselves. And it can get quite frustrating. There's times where, you know, with Twitter and stuff, I just think I just need to step back from this because it's so groupthinky at times.

It is so just repetitive. And, you know, the thing that really matters to me now, and this wasn't always the case, but I think it really matters to me now is just learning how to use tools that are going to allow me and my family to live as freely as we possibly can and for people to interfere

with us as little as possible and just to be left the fuck alone. And whatever tools I need to use, that's what I care about. And, you know, I am interested in the price going up. I am interested in this as an investment.

But there's only so many times that you can hear the same thing repeated, and, you know, people will come in and believe that what they're saying is new. And there's basically nothing new being said.

You know, you get someone else new from the legacy banking system or someone else who's very wealthy who works it out and they make some slightly different analogy about, you know, what it's like and compare it to something and everyone gets all excited.

But at the end of the day, once you understand this technology, you know that it's going to be very, very valuable financially, but it's going to be very, very valuable freedom-wise. And that's what matters.

So I'm sort of trying to push this podcast a little bit more towards learning the tools. And, you know, I'd like to do something around PGP because I find it really fucking horrible to use and walk quick to use, but I know how good it is.

I've ordered myself a laptop that I'm putting Linux on and just still waiting for it and trying to go away from Apple and just doing the bits that I can to get more freedom. And if people listen and they find that useful and enjoy it, then that makes me happy.

You know, that's what this is all about. Yeah, I mean, you go kind of controversial individuals like Elmo helping you out on that or side of the pond. And then you have Q&A, of course, that is sweet accent.

You've got often norms. So you've got good players over there that can help you out for sure. And it's always, for me, it's always enjoyable just to see that you are kind of a player, with no offense intended at all.

But you're just taking stuff at everything and you hang out with the right people. So you're on the right track there. And for sure, the last you use Apple with all these recent conundrum of they're going to be spying on your images or whatever for child pornography.

It's just daunting. Because at the end of the day, it just turns the vacate of, yeah, Apple cares about you. It cares about your privacy, whatever. And it just brings it back to zero to even negative.

It drops negative because it's a precedent that they're not going to get rid of so easily. It's the same way Google scans every image on Google Drive or on their services precisely to go after pedophiles and anything.

But if it happens today for that, it means that can't happen tomorrow for any other flag that they're going to pursue. So they're shooting themselves in their toes and they're broadcasting it to everybody.

But it also backfires because recently there has been a massive shortage of Google Pixel. That's kind of the, I don't know, the other option, the alternative to Apple devices, those are high-end.

They have good specs and you can flash colleagues OS on them. And hey, I want a Google Pixel now and I want to switch. So it's good. I mean, for the other, for the other Macs, the non-cool Macs, it's good for my machine.

So he does business. The non-cool ones. Yeah, they're good phones. I mean, I've still got the 3A and I'm still running graphene. Oh. But it's not an everyday phone. It is literally a dedicated samurai phone and I have nothing else on it.

So I have been thinking, because I've got a shitty old iPhone 7 or 8 or whatever it is. I paid like 50 quid for it and I'm just like that dude. So that's my everyday phone, but I think I'll probably go to one of these 4s or 5s if I'm going to read version and flash this Kali.

Is it Kali X? It's called Kali. Kali X? Yeah, Kali. Kali. C-A-L-Y-X-O-S, which comes from the Kali's Institute. The Kali's Institute just provides a VPN. It's just one of those foundations.

So to speak, whose target is like we're here to protect your rights in the digital realm and they fight for privacy or freedom and they've been around for a few years. It's pretty much like the EFF, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, or if you will, similar

to the Free Software Foundation, it's just organizations that come together, maybe build an LLC or whatever, and they also put a face as a non-profit. So those are the good organizations that you should both keep an eye open on their articles or campaigns and also donate or become an active member.

You're not becoming like a member of a political party, nothing like that. You don't need to commit to anything, but even $1 helps those campaigns which are actually doing something productive to protect our freedom of speech, if you will, and sovereignty.

I think it's important because beyond just becoming rich or beyond co-injoining or whatever else, we also need to be vocal and to put our money where our mouth is.

I could pair it free of a source of work all day long on Twitter and be an abrasive troll, non-stop and troll these and that and say these and as proud as many insults as I can. If I don't put my hand in my pocket and be like, yeah, I hear Free Software Foundation take, I don't know, a hundred bucks, then what am I doing?

I'm not doing anything, I'm just posturing and I'm being a complete asshole on the Internet. What do I get from that? Nothing. I may get a couple of insults back and a couple of blocks and that's fun while it lasts, but then what is the everlasting effect?

What is the groundbreaking thing that I'm pursuing? There is nothing, you know what I mean? If you don't pursue an essence, if it doesn't click in your brain, you're just a man grill, just pounding insults on the Internet and being cool.

It's true, yeah, it's true. There's a lot of that going on. And like you said, it's all well and good getting very, very wealthy. And I do think that a lot of people who are holding and continue to buy Bitcoin will become very, very wealthy.

But it's not a lot of good if you can't actually live your life and enjoy it. Like if we get to a point where, like I speak to a lot of people who are like, "Oh yeah, we're going to a million a coin" or even more and "Oh, we're going to live this fantastic life.

It's going to be amazing." And it's like, well, not if they lock all the borders down unless you inject something into your body that you don't want. And how good is it if you can't speak freely and you can't travel freely and you can't really think freely,

then how enjoyable is that going to be if you just have to lock yourself away somewhere and hide? And that's really what the fight is about. And if you really think deeply about what Bitcoin is trying to do, it's not just trying to make a group of outcasts and weirdos very, very wealthy,

it's trying to create freedom for people and trying to protect people's ability to transact and people's ability to store their value and people's ability to speak. It does seem that we're sliding very much one way at the moment very quickly and that seems to be into a sort of authoritarian nightmare.

And I don't know whether enough focus is spent on that. I feel like there's too much cheering about the price and wealth of people coming in. And, you know, that is great and it does help put it into more people's hands and raise awareness and everything else.

But I sometimes worry that we lose that sort of fighting ethos, that sort of we won't back down, we won't give in and we won't shut the fuck up because this is important. I don't know, it seems worrying to me, I can very much see a world where Bitcoin is put on trial

and that people will accept the idea that we are just as bad as terrorists and pedophiles and murderers and rapists because of the things that we stand for and they seem logical to us and that freedom is logical to us.

But we've seen how quickly mass hysteria sets in across the world and people very quickly change what is acceptable as long as everyone else goes along with it. So, I don't know, I mean, how do you see is the best way to fight that?

Do you think it is just done on an individual basis? Is there something that you think could be done to kind of, I don't know, to help make it clear what we're trying to do and get other people on board for the right reasons?

I think that's a difficult question, but it's a very good question as well. I believe, at the end of the day, most newcomers, especially into Bitcoin, they are getting in because they see the price going up and they just want to materialize on those gains as well.

They're just yellows and they're greedy, they're like, "Yeah, I want the number go up as well." And it goes hand in hand, the number go up with mass adoption and we compliance massive, compliant people.

It all goes into the same realm, at least that's how I see it. Because they don't care whether they state or the government or the private companies that they got those coins from, they know that they actually own it because their entire narrative goes to, if Bitcoin goes to 1 million tomorrow

or 2 million, 5 million, whatever, governments are going to be render useless and you no longer need to pay taxes because somehow, magically, you ran them over by the number go up and that's the end of it.

I think they're blind, they're just either malicious or they're just naive because the fact that Bitcoin goes to 1 million does not mean that the White House stops existing or the Queen in the UK stops existing, everything is going to be the same.

If anything, more numbers go up, it's more greediness and more jealousy from the governments and from the private companies that are going to try to profit either through your data so they analyze your data and they use it because it's surveillance capitalism

and they offer you targeted advertisements or outright they go after you to confiscate those coins from you because they know everything about you. That's if that's an entire problem about KYC. It does no matter where the chain is, pooling or private, like Monera.

If you KYC when you're acquiring those coins, you're pretty much like shooting yourself and saying, "Yeah, I'm here. Here's my address. Come and find me. Please, confuse Kate, everything from me."

Because with a sleep of a pen, any politician can friend their Bitcoin or all cryptocurrencies are illegal and they can prosecute you and it can happen from night to morning. You wake up and there's a couple cops just knocking on your door asking for your coins

and you're plausible that I really do smooth when you KYC because it's a keen to, let's say, this is hypothetical scenario. I walk into a store, I get a 9mm pistol and I purchase it with my ID. I sign a couple forms, I walk out the door, everything is great.

Within a week, somebody shot and they do the investigation and it's the same caliber that I purchased that day. Do you think that when the cops knock on my door and I say, "No, I lost my pistol" or "I got a stolen three days after I purchased it?"

Do you think they're going to buy that? No, they're not. It's the same way. You're going to tell them, "No, I lost them in a boat in accident. It doesn't work out like that."

No, they're not going to roll over. They're just going to say, "Okay, we don't believe you. We're going to see your assets. We're going to take your house. We're going to feed your bank accounts.

We're going to take any other assets, your vehicles and if we're feeling cute, we're going to throw you in jail as well and you're not fucking coming out." That is a real possibility, especially if you look on the trajectory that things are going at the moment, the way the freedoms are being taken.

That's completely reasonable to assume that that would happen. That said, I still feel there is some sort of middle ground where I think it's better for the average person to buy a little bit of Bitcoin,

even if it has to be on a KYC'd exchange than have none. The reason I think that is because a small percentage of those people will actually go further down the rabbit hole.

They will actually start to understand the ethos they will start. Someone like me, for example, if I'd have not bought any Bitcoin, I wouldn't be on the journey that I'm on now. I just wouldn't.

I also think that even if those people don't decide to use tools to help themselves be a little bit more free and they do just decide to hold that asset, then at least they are insulating themselves a little bit from the craziness that's going on in the world financially and at least they will hold some value hopefully.

If they don't hold their keys, they might not, but if they at least take that one step. There's levels to it. I might be on the extreme end with myself trying to be as private as I can and doing things in the best way that I can within my own abilities,

but I also don't attack people who aren't doing that because I think the more people who own Bitcoin, the better for the reason that if you have more people on your side,

for example, if it's just you and I and Q&A and Elmo and a few other people who are like this, and we all decide that we're going to buy an OKYC,

we're going to use all the tools possible, and we're like 0.00001% of the world, and then no one else really buys Bitcoin, no one else really holds it. Then we're in a very small minority, and we're much more likely to have people attack us, to have laws written that are going to be bad for us.

Whereas if it's us doing what we're doing, and then 25% of the world hold some Bitcoin either through some shitty fucking thing like Robin Hood, or they have it on an exchange, or whatever it is they're doing, if 25% of the world were, for example, to actually have some exposure to Bitcoin,

and then legislators try and make it illegal, or 60102 it, or try and arrest anyone who has it, it's going to be much less likely because those people will stand up for themselves, they don't give a fuck about you, they don't give a fuck about me, they're very tribal, and they're just going to see us as like,

"Oh, they're just those lucky people who got wealthy, and they're about a bunch of criminals, so fuck them, let the government take their Bitcoin." So I kind of just think the more people we have on our side, the better, but I know that's not something that's shared by many people, and I don't know,

I wish your thoughts on that, do you literally just, are you on the side where you think, "Oh, fuck them?" No, no, no, I wouldn't say fuck you, precisely because you're the cool max, you're not the other non-cool max, I wouldn't say fuck you, no.

And again, I truly appreciate that you've rained on a lot of samurai people, to be completely honest we do the only times that I tune in your parties when you have Ergo, or Diveritaro, Max, or Pavel, or whoever.

It's hard, your initial question was whether we could do anything to kind of change the direction, I kind of tried to answer. I personally think the stronger and the louder we make the advice, we make the shouts regarding getting your coins KYC free, the better.

I, of course, can see your point of view when you say that maybe it doesn't matter as much if the first time that they buy, or the first few times that they buy Bitcoin, they do so with KYC on RAM.

I can't understand that, and to pinpoint your argument, I think that holds true, because even Q&A, which is a monster, makes entire guides and knows everything about samurai, and I don't know, it's a bible of knowledge.

He has admitted publicly that he, once upon a time, bought Bitcoin on Coinbase. So everybody had those faces, that's perfectly fine. What I would condone, what I would, I don't know, don't talk, be right, is if you keep on doing that to these days, and you've spent a couple of years in the space,

and you're still holding everything on Coinbase, that's something that is not acceptable for me.

I think we can look at KYC like your gateway, you're taking your baby step, and you get acquainted with Bitcoin, you withdraw it, once it's in your wallet, you start just pending it to get some goods, or marching with your community doing a circular economy type of thing.

But once it clicks in your brain, and you dive in, you should change your own ramps, and you should change your dynamics as to how do you keep it, whether you need samurai, you need to go to werepool, you need to do the post-mix spending tools, you need to do this and that, just join the community.

Once you join the community, there is some broader hood, and then you get friends, and they troll you, you troll them back, you keep doing transactions, you send means, you send stickers, gifts, so it becomes kind of a family.

And I think once you reach the plateau, that's even better not only for you, but for the community, because then you're building your own circular economy, you're getting acquainted with the actual developers, you get some insights as to where the projects are heading to.

You get a sneak peek of what is coming, you get to do better testing, you get to do alpha testing, you hang out with your friend that is influencer in this place.

And I'm totally not talking about myself, I do this, and for me it's been great that I get to experience this firsthand, and you can also get to work for somebody, and that's another gateway, another way in that you earn the coins instead of buying them.

So it becomes like your unit of account, which has been happening to me as well for the past few years. You do a couple side gigs for some important people that got in early, it's none of your business, how many coins they own.

Would you do something valuable for them, they pay you and be quinomer narrow, and you leave off of that, because then you can grab those coins and go to peer to peer exchanges, and change it for fiat, and go and pay your rent, or go and get some food, or whatever else that you need or pay for utilities.

And once you actually are earning it and are changing it to cover your expenses, it makes sense for you, and it's way more comfortable.

You're not paying any amount of money to the bank, it's not getting taxed directly, because who is going to tax a transaction that anybody in the world sends to me because I translated an article, nobody, because it's between me and that person.

There is no bank, there is no institution, there is no wide fee, there is nothing, it settles within a few minutes, and that's it.

And I think that's great, that's also kind of part of my, I don't know, my input to your scenario, to your question, the broader than just buy and sell dynamics, why not bolster or push the need for people to pursue jobs in the space,

to be marketing or whatever their expertise is, because they're actually earning it. Another thing is just selling your stuff, there is a saying, I don't know, there is always something that you can sell to just to stack more assets, and I couldn't agree more.

There is many things in our houses that we don't use, and that we could perfectly sell on second hand markets and get more Bitcoin, and there is also a few on rams that are KYC-free, BISC, Azteco, hodahodl, there is alternative, that's the entire point of it.

Yeah, there are options, and that's what I've done now, I don't use the KYC services anymore, I use BISC or buy off piers or find ways, but I'd like to start earning it, that would be really cool.

I've sold one painting for Bitcoin, and that was the happiest moment, I think, for years, I was so excited to be selling something that I've created and someone enjoy it, and they pay me in Bitcoin, it just felt like this is perfect.

So that was really nice, I'd like to do more of that, but I think it just takes time for people to get their head into that, it is a journey. And in that literally that unit of account thing, that took me nearly two years to truly, like you hear one Bitcoin, there's one Bitcoin, you hear that, and you're like, yeah, yeah, whatever.

And then it finally clicks, and now I'm like, I don't look at my bank balance and go, I've got X amount of fear, and that my Bitcoin would be that this much fear. And then they now think, well, I've got this amount of Bitcoin, that's what matters, that's what I'm thinking about, that's what I'm always trying to make that number grow.

And I just think that's, that's, it's time, it's confidence. You know, you live through a bear market, you feel the pain, then you see the ups and downs, you learn more, you understand more, you see that you're not the only one who's a crazy and you speak to enough people in life.

Well, these people aren't idiots, so, unless we're all completely fucking wrong, you know, this is, this is something that's going to stay around and then I think that mental switch happens so it is a time thing.

And I've, I've seen it with people who listen to this podcast and sort of like followed along on my journey, and they're kind of doing things at a similar sort of rate.

You know, they're reaching out and saying, Oh, I've also set up a pixel A, you know, I've done this and, you know, I've stopped using my KYC exchange and I'm selling my shit in my house or I'm selling my house, you know, whatever it is.

And it is cool to have people along on that journey, and it's really cool as well. You know, you said about having these communities and these people and making friends, you know, a lot of these telegram groups, we're in a few of them together.

Those sort of things are really cool. It wasn't you if you set up the Bitcoin sovereignty one or who's ones that? No, that's wrong by somebody else, but I'm an admin with Max and somebody else.

It's kind of new. It's relatively new. It's really good. Yeah. Yeah, but most of them where I had sir in there, you can make the connection, whatever. I think she's posting with Samurai when the people from Samurai for about a year.

And I couldn't be feeling better with them. It's been right. And it all started the week because the not day directly Samurai, but Samurai while a community people decided to create an off topic group chat.

And he just went downhill from there downhill lesson. I don't know the group chat has been remade like three or four times. He has undergone through different names. But these these Bitcoin and sovereignty other group chat is from somebody else.

It's not related to the off topic shenanigans. But it's been fun because you actually get to discuss privacy stuff with them, but you get also any kind of day to day. Vanilla live topics have been discussed out in plain text.

You choose some kind of brotherhood, if you will. But there's one thing that pieces me off in the in the ecosystem. And I know that you say that you also want the number to go up the price to go up.

But I think personally speaking for myself. I would rather for the price used to get crushed. To be honest with you, because the dynamic works like this. If the more the price goes up, the less likely the holders are to spend.

So it kind of prevents hinders the circular economy. Because why am I going to spend it today? You've been I don't know one month is going to be worth 60k. But that's not the point. That kind of pieces me off big time because we need to look at Bitcoin and Monero and any other cryptocurrency that people use.

If today I need to get painkillers to put an example, I want them today. I need them today. I go and spend it right now without thinking I don't know in in one decade is going to be worth one million and I spend I don't know.

A hundred K Sats just on getting a couple painkillers. I was so dumb. Now it's worth a hundred K dollars and I just spend that much money. If the guy who spent 10,000 bitcoins getting a few pizzas from Domino's had imposted that on Bitcoin talk for maybe we wouldn't be these part.

People don't understand that in order for us to actually bolster the adoption that in order for us to push Bitcoin or to push Monero forward. We need to spend it. We need to use it. We need to not not be afraid of of putting it and backing in projects that we actually find valuable.

If you like Samurai while I go and donate to Samurai while it or hang out with Samurai while it or if you like seed signer or go and purchase their product and hang out with Dev and be like yeah nice to meet you.

I like your project. Reach out. Do something that is going to actually put your the worst that you're is pouting out on the internet every day that they're going to back something, a project, an idea.

Anything. Do you know what I mean? If we get a stock so much in the number go up, who is going to drive the price up? If everybody keeps holding.

Okay, there is this car CD and there is a 21 million cap, whatever. But then what are we 21 million idiots who never stand and they just keep bragging to each other. Oh, yeah, I got these amounts of Bitcoin.

You know, it sounds ridiculous. It's like, well, I could create, I don't know, baseball cars and there's cars too. And we can just become doochbacks too as well. So, yeah, we're so exclusive. What is the essence of that? There is no signs. There is no.

I'm sorry. It's just a little rant. It just pisses me off. No, I sort of get what you mean. I think it would also probably flush out a lot of the people who are here for the wrong reasons if it crashed like hard. A lot of people who say they're holding forever and fronting on the internet would not.

Because it is about just the money. It's not about more than that for a lot of people. I guess my view on it is, I mean, I do spend Bitcoin, but I only spend it with other Bitcoiners.

So, you know, if someone's 3D printing me something and they're a Bitcoin or I'll pay them in Bitcoin. If I'm sending some money to Bitcoin Q&A because I've just had a drink with them and I owe some money, I'll pay them in Bitcoin.

I use it obviously in the rest of my life because no one knows what the fuck it is or wants it or, you know, no one really wants to interact with it. But I will always try and replace it.

So, so I'm somewhere in the middle where I'm like, I'm happy to spend my Bitcoin. I mean, I'm a little bit more hesitant to do things on chain when things when their fees are really heavy.

And if I'm sending 50 pounds worth of Bitcoin and it's going to cost me 15 or 20 to send it, I'm probably just going to do it on lightning or use something like that because I'm like, well, I'm not going to do that.

But at the moment with it being the transactions, so if I can cheat to put through, I have no problem with it, but I will go and replace it.

So I'm in that middle ground where I want the number to go up because, well, firstly, I don't earn any money anymore. I just literally do my art, do my podcast and fuck all quit all the rest of my work so that I can do this.

It would be handy so that I can keep living just selfishly. And, and secondly, I do think that as the number goes up, we do get more secure the hash, the hash power will probably go up will have a better infrastructure.

There'll be more investments. There'll be more people drawn in. You'll get more developers who'll be interested. Just in terms of like, if you look at prices, literally, that is the marketing department.

And it's really fucking good because people's eyes go straight on to it. And so I don't know. I mean, either way, I'm sticking around. If, if we drop down, that's fine. If we go to the moon, that's fine.

And I can see it from both. I can see it from both sides. So I don't know. Maybe it would be interesting. I mean, maybe it would be interesting if we just see a complete, like serious crash, like 90%, 95%, something like that. It would be very interesting to look around and see who's still here.

Yeah. And I am certain that I'm not alone on the sentiment. I am, I hang out with a lot of old school Odies, and they, they always say, like back in 2012 or back in 2011, what we were in for were the freedom features, the liberation, the fuck to stay, whatever.

So it's kind of gone in the downhill from 2011 through 2021. It has gone from, we're using Bitcoin to have a smart work around for the governments and the legislation to hold your center today.

Just to whine about this stupid infrastructure bill that has been proposed. I'm like, fuck the fucking senator, fuck the fucking state, fuck anybody that tries to lobby in DC for this law, for this bill not to get passed.

What is the point of loving or coin center or whoever else, fuck them, both fuck the state and fuck anybody that that tries to, I don't know, to bend the need to the state and be like, no, that's not possible.

We don't need to do any loving. We don't need to go to the Congress, or we don't need to get crypto friendly politicians that are going to talk greatly about us or the project.

The project was precisely created to bring us sovereignty to bring us autonomy to ourselves. We don't need anything else but their consensus. We don't need anything else but the note, and we don't need anything else but our wallets.

That's the end of it. There is no state in it. There is no law. Ironically, but not so much. I will be delighted if tomorrow the US or the UK or the European Union say, Bitcoin is banned.

Anybody owning it just goes to jail because that cuts to the chase. Instead, they've been clamping on Bitcoin by implanting their KYC regulations.

Not only that, but most of these on-ramps own a sizable amount of Bitcoin of the total supply. So they effectively not only managed to kind of implant their stuff through the KYC regulations, but they also seized a sizable, a good chunk of the total supply.

So they actually control a good amount of coins as well now. So why are we trying so hard for them to accept us? There is no point. We're just being cucks. It's completely nonsensical, but it is what it is.

I go along with that. I spoke to Obi the other day, actually, and he said the same thing. He said, "Let them pass all these rules. Let them pass this infrastructure bill. Let them ban mining. We'll find a way."

They're battling something that was designed to subvert and get around their stupid laws. I'm 100% with you there. Don't speak to a senator. Don't try and think that any politician is going to help you.

Don't try and go along with this old system because it's not here to help you. It's so obviously not here to help us. I would like the same. I'm not sure I'd like us to be illegal tomorrow because my privacy hasn't perfect from the beginning and they'll come and put me away and I'll never get out again.

But yeah, I think that comes. There's a few things. One is I think that it would be very foolish to think that they don't have a massive stack of Bitcoin and everything else because they're not that stupid.

People that are governments are really stupid. Well, yeah, some people in governments are stupid. Some people in governments are really fucking smart as well. Just because they're not good doesn't mean they're not smart. You can be very, very smart and very fucking nasty.

So I'm sure that they have a lot. And I'm sure they've done it in some smart ways. They've probably been mining and then all sorts as well. And they just keep that quiet. But I think that they are going to eventually clamp down when it becomes blatantly obvious that the gig is up for the system.

And I don't know how long that goes. It could be a very long time. But we are the one thing, as far as I can say, that really stands in the way of them continuing this Ponzi scheme and continuing to enslave mankind.

And that's what they want. And so we are the enemy and we can play as nice and smile at our enemy and think that they're not going to attack us and think it gives us a few minutes or moments before they do.

But at the end of the day, they are going to try and kill us. And so I think that's why I'm focusing very much on these tools is that I know it's coming. I know I'm really unprepared. I know most people are really unprepared. And, you know, it's a case of just arming yourself ready for that attack.

So that, you know, they might come for you. They might get some of it if you've been slack, but at least hopefully you've got something as a backup or your family do if you get imprisoned.

Or, you know, you've sorted out a second passport maybe so you can get out of a country that's going to imprison you or not allow you out and that you have some options because it seems like optionality is really going to be the thing.

And having sort of backups on backups on backups and redundancy and not having all your eggs in one basket and just thinking a few moves ahead because, yeah, they're coming. They're coming and anyone who can't see that is crazy.

It seems like we're going to end up just running away from jurisdiction to jurisdiction until what we run out of jurisdictions that we can go to and then we build our own space rocket and we migrate to Mars, I guess, with our coins.

It's just, these dystopian world is just exhausting. It's, I don't know, I don't know what's the end of it. The only thing that I am clear on is, as you say, that we're, we're, they're enemies, they're clear enemies, they're declared enemies.

The best thing that we can do is just arm ourselves with these freely, very often sort of software tools and the more we know about them and the more we know about their use cases better.

But again, if we just get a talk, we hold in and accumulated, there is a point, because then if tomorrow, I don't know, you lose your wallet or you lose something. But if you have practice, you will have known that you need your mnemonic, or you have known where maybe you could have a spread your backups in multiple locations.

So you will have some something to fall back on. But he, since you never tried it, since you never used it, since you never practice it, then you, you don't have that hands on experience.

You haven't faced any, I don't know, difficulties or any casualties, so you're not prepared mentally and physically to counteract against whatever you're up for. You know what I mean?

If you don't actually spend it, or maybe, let's say, you do your first TX 0, you're going to work with a pool, you go a couple free ride and mix things, whatever, and then you're ready to spend.

If you don't, if you don't actually use the pause mixing tools and you don't do the stone wall, you don't, you can't go to Oxt.me and analyze whatever you did. So you can actually see for yourself, whether you're actually hiding your traces, or you're just laughing and you're just doing, yeah, I did it, you didn't actually.

So you need the hands on, if you don't do it, for me, it's not useful. You're not delivering to yourself, not to me or to you or to anybody in the space, to yourself, you're not giving yourself the fruits of your labor.

It's talking just for holding, it's just, it doesn't make sense for me anymore. And I completely, utterly agree with you whenever I spend the very first thing that comes to mind is, how am I going to replace this?

I do spend and I replace, spend and replace, it's a very good dynamic. Yeah. Do you have any favorite tools for this? Obviously, I know you're a massive fan of Samurai and you're using the tools there.

What else are you thinking about? Like, if you're stacking, you've mentioned Bisk and Hoddle Hoddle or to earn it. Like, what would you see if someone's listening to this and they're like, oh, you know, maybe I should get my ass in gear.

Maybe I am just laughing. What is the flow for you that makes most sense and that is going to be accessible? Sure. I don't know if you've heard of these as taco vouchers. I'm going to go and buy them tomorrow.

Awesome. A pound loan, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is he going to be your first one or? Yeah, I haven't, I haven't had time to go yet, but I was actually speaking to brother Rabbit about them yesterday.

Well, before you continue, I love brother Rabbit and now continue. Yeah, he's been really fucking helpful. He's been helping with a few bits recently and such a lovely guy. But yeah, he was chatting to me about it and saying he'd managed to get a couple and a few other people that I've spoken to have done them.

Yeah, I think basically the flow is you go in, you make sure you're COVID safe, you're masked up and you can buy a voucher. It's £25 value is the per voucher, but I think you can buy multiple and it's all done on lightning and then you will just withdraw.

I mean, you could always use something like wallet Satoshi or something because that's effectively a custodial mixer and then just swap that out into Bitcoin. So yeah, I will be trying it. It is 10% on top, but, you know, it's cash.

That's a hefty premium, but you're paying cash and thanks to their COVID exterior, you can also go masked up. So it's useful. And I think my main tool that I've been using for the past few weeks to answer your question is being asked tech about yours, because I recently found local vendor.

So what we do is like, I don't know, we go hang out in a bar or we go hang out in their place or whatever else. We get a couple of years, we have chat. And then I pull up my cash.

And then I pull up the POS, however much we're doing, he takes the cash, I take my voucher and that's the end of it. And then I can pocket the voucher and I can come home and be like, I just put in my Bitcoin address, I put in the string of numbers of the voucher.

So that's the main and within 10 or 15 minutes, the UTXO comes through, everything is clear. So it's pretty straight forward, because when you compare us tech about yours with bees, you're going to teach a plan.

Like, yeah, you just pull up your bees, and then you start saying the message of torn egg or whatever, and it gets convoluted. Not only that, but if you actually want to purchase or whatever, you need to actually own Bitcoin beforehand,

there is the deposit, this crow, whatever, to allow for you to do transactions on bees. Whereas if you're rolling with us tech about yours, you just send them on each the vendor, be de-utilized through a bank wire or whatever is more convenient for you on vendor,

and they send you the code. And if you're lucky, like me, then you go in person, you change the cash and that's the end of it. And depending on the vendor, because it's upon the vendor, not as tech or itself, they choose what percentage of premium or sleepage, they're going to deduct from the purchase that you're making.

So you're saying that pound land is 10%, somebody is very greedy, because the standard is 5%, and if you're even extra lucky, you may find vendors that are even below 5%, which is great.

I assume that what is going down with pound land is that since they're a chain, I assume, maybe because it's enterprise and they don't care about Bitcoin or whatever, it's not an individual selling the vouchers.

If you know what I mean, mostly the vendors that I found, they're not a source or anything like that. They're actual individuals who decided to apply to become a vendor, and that I can go to.

And they eat more like, I don't know, I'm hitting up max from buy by be just purchase a voucher. They just do hanging around and selling vouchers, and that's the end of it. It's nothing like Poundland or Blockbuster, do you know what I mean? Maybe I need to find a vendor then rather than going to Poundland.

Right, right, but it doesn't hurt because if it's going to be your first experience, at least you get how easy and convenient it is. I think my favorite non-KYC way to acquire Bitcoin right now is a stack all day.

And you can even ask around in the samurai or running W people, they know that I just went bowler. I've been shielding it non-stop because for me, it's very easy. Again, you just get a string of numbers of numbers, and you put in your Bitcoin address, and that's the end of it.

No questions, no accounts, no email address, no names, nothing. So here's a question for you then. If you buy a stack, well, I'll put it another way. If I was doing this, I'm going to tell you how I would do it, and you tell me if I'm an idiot.

I would go buy it in cash with a mask, and I then would put it into cold storage, and I would not use it in samurai or any sort of post-mix tools or any of that sort of stuff. I would literally just put it straight into cold storage. Is there any reason that that is done?

I would say there is, no, no, I wouldn't judge you, no, no. I wouldn't say that that is flawed or wrong. Personally, whenever I use samurai, it's prior to spending. So if you're just holding, I don't see why that is wrong.

The implications that you may be looking at are stem from another point of view, or another scheme, so to speak, because if that cold storage, if that hardwood wallet that you're using, or whatever wallet you're using, already has UTXOs,

you need, you must to make sure that the UTXOs that are inside that wallet are not KYC. Because if they're KYC, then you're effectively mixing non-KYC UTXO with KYC UTXO.

So if you're using something like Spectre or Sparrow, linked to a cold card, and then you are using proper UTXO management and labeling, and you send into a fresh address, and it's labeled, in that instance, it would make sense to just do that straight away.

And what that means, then, is if you're, as an example, if you're going on BISC, I'd say my average price on top of SPOT is probably 4%, it's about what I spend on average on BISC.

And so if I do the 4%, and then I put that through samurai, it's not cheap. I don't know what it is as a percentage, generally, but it is probably a couple of percent, especially with the smaller amounts.

So actually, Azteco makes a lot of sense, and it's less FAF, it's less hassle, and it's more private because BISC, you still are sharing your information with somebody else, and they could be anybody.

And so then you do want to be putting that through Whirlpool because you do want to break those links. Precisely, yeah, yeah, and here comes a little bit of a Monera plug again, but there it goes.

There has been countless casualties, I call them casualties, in which buyers on BISC have ended up with tainted, and by tainted I mean, I don't know, coins is straight from darknet markets, or sanctioned UTXOs.

If there is coins, so this week, even though, of course, we may agree that there is no obtained, there is no flag coins, as far as the blockchain is concerned.

But as long as you go on, and I don't know, extend it in a regulated change, you're going to get your funds frozen, or your money sent back to you, and your business is going to be canceled on that on RAM.

So you need to be very cautious when you're acquiring those UTXOs KYC free, because you never know where they're coming from. So again, every time that I want to spend Bitcoin, I just pay a visit to somewhere like, well, I'm kind of laundered the money, so to speak, to no end.

So whenever I actually descend to the actual person that I want to pay to, I can have some ease of mind that the traces are obfuscated enough for them not to give me shit as to where those funds come from.

And if I want to sound like a proper Monero reply guy, I could just say, just use Monero, because the beauty of Monero is everything is anonymous, so I don't need to worry about the past of those coins.

The same Monero that comes from the diagram market that somebody used to purchase, I don't know, heroin, or meth, or whatever, two days ago, will look exactly the same Monero that I'm getting off of Kraken, or Bifinx, or Binance.

It's the same, there is no flagging possible, there is no nothing that they can trace back. So it's pretty useful for those, if you look at it from that lens.

But of course then you hit the liquidity issue, Monero doesn't have a big market like Bitcoin does, doesn't have the same number of on-bramps by any metrics, it's just daunting not to see the same level of attention.

But again, it just gets into sheep coining and the purity test and it's just the same bullshit.

So for example, if you have some Bitcoin and then you want to do an atomic, because this was talked about in Samurai I think for like, what does it was it called the like dust not dust, they call it something else in where it's like, the dark

change. Yeah, the toxic change. And someone was saying, Oh, what about if you then atomic swap that into Monero and then peg back out again. And presumably that's possible with any amount as long as there's liquidity.

And would that mean that just as like really basic example, you have a million sat and then you convert those to Monero and then you convert straight back from Monero to Bitcoin to a separate wallet again.

Would that none then effectively break those links and if it does effectively break those links, what is the cost to do that and what services do that.

And I think the biggest cost or concern if you will is actually finding the lead finding the liquidity on both ends, because I mean from the Bitcoin and going into Monero is pretty useful for transactional purposes because they're effectively

just nuking their entire past by going into a completely invisible shape from the Monero and it's not so appealing, because they will never know whether they're getting dirty coins or clean coins.

And they are very big into no we're a module and we're pretty anonymous wherever we're not going to dump our fungible coins for your pooly blockchain chip coin, which is something that I understand.

So, so I think the main challenge with atomic swaps as it stands right now is finding people that are actually willing to swap their coins from either direction.

I think we need to hold off on to it until Samurai wallet and Monero wallets integrate the function, the feature, and then see for ourselves if it actually brings enough volume, enough volume and no traction for it to pick up steam.

It is pretty useful. I wouldn't say otherwise I'm very excited and looking forward to it. I just have my reservations as to whether it's going to be long lasting so to speak.

I hope it is Bitcoin and again, he cracked, he made sense in your mind I'm glad Monero and not so sure, but I believe there is going to be a good dynamic at least for the first couple months, because there is always the excitement of, oh, this is a new tool, let's just give it a shot.

So maybe that makes it last for a couple months and it's going to be fun for everybody. Okay, let's hope for the best.

But yes, if they're too long to read you can break your traces by going into Monero that way, but what I've been cautious with is when you're going back to Bitcoin, you end up with the same health potato problem, you know what I mean?

Because then you don't know again what kind of Bitcoin you're getting. But if you knew all these are gone, and if you become a samurai while a maxi, then you don't care, because whatever coin you get, you just go through we're both and you clean it and you're good to go.

Yeah, I think that's what's so nice with world pool is you can feel confident and then you have got the tools to check afterwards to see how well you've actually done things.

I think, you know, the issue with using things like that, and the appeal to me for something like, oh, an atomic swap and you literally peg in and peg straight back out again is the time and the stress.

And I love all the samurai guys. I love what they're doing. But fuck me. Do I break it all the time? That's why I was on the phone to brother rabbit for like three hours over the last month.

And I still can't get the fucking thing working. And I've built it and rebuilt it 10 times. And every time, you know, it's stressful. I've had funds that I can't find now, no matter how many times I rescan the X and Z ups and whatever else.

And, you know, that's for me, someone who I really care about my privacy, I'm really trying to do the right thing. You know, I, I'm not the most technical person, but I'm not also not a complete fucking retard.

And I can't, I can't seem to get it consistently working. So, for me to try and say to most people who are coming in, oh, yeah, just, you know, build a run and dojo and then link each a samurai wallet and then do these steps like, you know, realistically, as great a product as it is, it's just not happening.

And so the appeal of something where it's like, you know, you peg in, you peg out and it's done and you send that back to your wallet. That really, that really is nice. And that's why a lot of people sort of started using lightning and I know people will pick it apart and say, well, it's not perfect.

And, you know, you shouldn't be using custodial and stuff. But, you know, the idea of sending. Sat's via lightning into a custodial wallet, which then you then send out, you peg out onto on chain.

It is like a sort of custodial mixer effectively. And I can do that. I can sit down with someone. And in two, three minutes, I can do it. And it works. And it's done. And it's, it might not be perfect, but it's better.

And, you know, maybe this, maybe this pegging in and pegging out on the atomic swap sits somewhere in the middle of those two options. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, there is not much that I can say. And in this regard, I'm just excited.

And I don't know if you know, but Samurai Wallet and Monirudjo. These are the two main or preferred mobile wallets, at least for myself. They actually perform a couple main net on on chain atomic swaps between Bitcoin and Monero. I read like two or three months ago or one month ago, whatever.

And Moneroudjo people actually perform the atomic swap. So, so it's actually doable. And it's already out there. I know that a member of the Monero community is trying to launch because you actually need to.

And I don't know the, the nitty gritty details of it, but you needed to actually kind of put together kind of a bank, so to speak. So the coordination can take place. It's kind of a liquidity provider, but not a liquidity provider. Exactly. You need to provide a kind of service that you established, like a hosting service.

So whenever the parties that are interested in this weapon, like, I am selling some Monero and I'm willing to take your Bitcoin at this rate, I put up the offer.

You come on and you say, yeah, I'll take it. So we get connected and it happens, but there has to be these liquidity provider kind of bank to be up there, up and running 24/7, ideally. So you can get a couple and you can get linked to these other parties that are willing to do the atomic swap.

He's actually trying to do together that service, and I'm thankful for that. For the samurai and for Bitcoin and as far as he goes, initially is going to be clean only. So it's not going to be graphical interface. So it's not going to be as easy and beautiful as we wish for it to be.

But initially, most of samurai tools were clean. That's the way they were first introduced. You may expect some graphical, some buttons, some more good eye candy for the newcomers in the future.

We'll see how he pans out the ETA, the estimated time of arrival for samurai is beginning of 2022. So we're already kind of talking ahead of time, futuristic things.

But I can tell you something right now, both communities seem excited about it. And we just need to keep pushing and getting the word out. So whenever he lands, we have enough liquidity to just have fun and send funds back and forth.

And as you say, take out, take out, it's fun. I'm all for it. And there's a big shout out to Bitcoin enemies. It's kind of a name, self-hosting community. It's very underrated.

I don't know if you've heard, but they put together this Greta's theory. And in a nutshell, you send one side the stowaway transactions between each other and signed with your UTXO message. So you get an entry.

You could get entries in that contest, and whoever did most transactions gets the grand prize. And the grand prize was like, you get a running dojo. You get a pixel from Amushi.

You get the privacy is a human fine hoodie. You get the foundation password, a bunch of prices that are related to the ecosystem move about yours for the VPN. Not to tell, totally my own horn, but I'm actually doing it. I actually want that event from Bitcoin enemies.

I'm very thankful for. Yeah, I actually want it. So I want all that stuff. I got my running dojo, the foundation password, VPN, hoodies, everything. And it was pretty fun.

I keep you not. I hadn't signed transactions with my UTXO directly from Samurai. I hadn't done the stowaways before. I had done some other things like going into Whirpool, but I hadn't done the actual stowaway. So he was pretty interactive.

He was very trolley in the chats, but we were having fun with one another. And that's kind of my bullet point of my takeaway here. If you build a community, it becomes something like it's engaging. It's inviting newcomers to do some random stuff and to have fun while learning how Bitcoin works or samurai in this case.

And I think that's pretty, pretty important. It was fun. Yeah, I did 59, 59 entries, unique entries. So I sent effectively once the stowaway 59 times over, I don't know, two or three weeks, which is nice.

That's very cool. And do you like the foundation passport? Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love those guys, because they are approaching the market being like, we not only want to be freely very often sort of software as for the firmware, but we also want to open the hardware.

So they're kind of bringing both exclusively free open source software and free open hardware, if you will.

It's hard to find. Yeah, it's hard to find actual free hardware, because most components are behind NDA's or their proprietary, they cannot open it. It's like, if we discuss a little bit, if we dissect a little bit the hardware wallet ecosystem, it's kind of self deprecated.

It's kind of, it's not good, because if you look at ledger, ledger is not fully open source precisely because of what I'm saying, I was saying, there is some NDA's or some agreements that hinder ledger from opening everything.

So they're not fully open source, which is concerning. If you look at Tressor, Tressor is free open source software and it's great, but they don't have a secure element, a secure chip.

So if an attacker gets access to your Tressor within 15, 20 minutes and using the right tools and getting and having the right notions, they can break in and they can get access to your funds.

So both of them are pieces of junk, speaking for myself, of course. If you look at, if you look at call card, the UI and the UX is just terrible, who likes call card, maybe you do. But my point is, I'll stand up for a call card here, just a little bit.

This is why, firstly, I agree with you, it is fucking horrible to use. And anyone, anyone who says that it isn't is wrong, the UX is horrible. But you can, like, there are some features that I really like, like I like the fact that you can add entropy with the dice rolls when you're creating your seats.

I think the fact that you can export, like, child seeds to other things and have, like, one master seed, I think that's cool.

There's a lot of features where I think that they are very much ahead of the game. And even on the foundation passport, like, I really like Zach, I've had him on the show, I've got one of the foundation passports, it's fucking beautiful.

I love, I love the design. I love the UX. Like, if you put the two back to back a cold card next to that, absolutely hands down the foundation is nicer to look at, nicer feel, better UX, but it doesn't have as many features yet.

And I say, yeah, I'm sure that they're going to put them in. But for example, like, I need to set my foundation device up. If I want to go and create a seed, I still have to create it on my cold card to export it.

Because I can't have entropy. I would otherwise have to trust. So as much as we can slag cold card off, I do think that it is, I do think it's important part of the tool chest for now.

Yeah, no, and there is one thing credit where it's worth, I think, even though I bash on Rodolfo and cold card pretty heavily. I think one thing that we forget in the woods or in this fight in fighting is that Rodolfo and Koinkai and whatever, they work a lot of beef on beeps.

So there is more than one or a couple beeps, Bitcoin proposal, whatever improvement proposal. That's what beef stands for. That Koinkai and Rodolfo has worked on. And I think if I recall correctly, the beef that actually allows for a master seed and the child seed Koinkai was involved with that.

I think it was beef 85 or something. So they're pretty heavy in the ecosystem. They're involved with their main list. Everything is great. But I think there is one thing kind of crossed the boundary with me. And I think that's when I, if I want to sound like a Karen, that's when I canceled Koinkai and Rodolfo.

He's when, when foundation, when Sac and foundation announced that they were working with the foundation past for the foundation passport and that they have for the code from kind of for not directly for from cold card benefited from their work.

And from Tresor, Rodolfo's reaction was just not good to say the least because he pretty much made a conundrum, an entire show out of it. He started walking people and he started discouraging people from buying foundation passport because they were acting like bleaches.

Like they were leaching off of his work over the years. And I'm like, "Kolkar was GPL V3. It was fast. How do you expect people not to copy your code if the very licensed states that they can?"

And when they do, then you react like that? No. And that was not enough. He's emotional reaction. But he also flipped the coin or flipped the switch and changed the license.

So Kolkar is no longer free open source software. It's just source available. It changed from GPL V3 to meet to MIT. So it's different now. It's not what it used to be. No, you can no longer find everything.

Do you think that is a was through concern where he's looking at the design of this thing, looking at what they're putting together and going, "Right, I need to step my game up here in terms of the design and everything else." And that it was like a competition thing.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I've had Rodolfo on here. And personally, as a person, I like him very much. I've got on very well with him. He's always been very respectful with me. But when it comes to that, yeah, I agree. I think that this whole thing is, you know, it's an open source movement.

We're all trying to work together to build the best products possible to push this thing forward and make, you know, get Bitcoin into as many people's hands as possible, as safely as possible.

And that kind of goes against the ethos for me. So for that, you know, I do find that disappointing. It doesn't mean that I like the cold card any less. I still use it. But I am very excited to see what Zach and the team do going forward. And yeah, it is a fucking lovely design. I really, really like how nice does it feel in your hand?

It just feels like real quality. It feels like it's straight out of the Apple store or something like that. Didn't, didn't, didn't you have some stupid problem with costumes and the batteries because people can't be teaching about it.

Yeah. So I had, yeah, I did have a problem with that. I didn't know specifically because of the batteries. But I did get charged quite a lot of customs, but then saying that Zach kindly send it out for me for free.

So I paid whatever it was, £65 or something like that to get it in. And so I was like, well, you know, it's fucking annoying because I've had to pay the customs on it, but I would, you know, pay that all day long to have that device.

So I wasn't to annoyed, but I wonder whether there's a way around it so other people don't get stung with that same problem. Hey, Max, but whenever we get to be grandparents or whatever, maybe you're already grandparent. I'm sorry. I'm just telling you, you're a boomer, whatever.

But whenever we get, we were grandchildren. We can tell our grandchildren, hey, I go one of the first 1000 foundation, passport, founder, sedition. You wouldn't believe how bigly important I am just because I held that device. And they'll say fuck off Granddad. I don't care.

Yeah, I'm all in on ripple. Yeah. And the fact that do you notice that they number them? So in the back, you actually know the number of the foundation pastor that you own. No, you just leap it. Yeah, on the back, on the bottom of the lead off that covers the batteries issue.

Have the number. I'm not going to say what number I own because I'm dark to myself. You should have it. I've got 0021. Wow, that's impossible. I'm yelling. Really, I'm lying. I don't know. It's in another room, but I will check that out.

Yeah, for sure. So yeah, you just throw back the topic because you interrupted me. She'll be a hulker. She coined there. Don't worry. We already dissected a call card. There is no more need for that.

And then we have foundation password. And as you say, it's novel. It lacks some features. I don't disagree with you on that, but I think we don't that seed investment, whatever that they got of north of $2 million to get it started with the work.

It's relevant and they've been hiring people. So I'm kind of bullish on whatever they have in store. I'm sure that they are going to blow our mind. I hope so, at least. What else is out there? Well, there is the big box O2, which is kind of nobody talks about it.

That's from Switzerland. I think that's one of the best hardware wallets. I'm kind of biased. I was one of the very first customers of them.

I don't say these just because I say, but actually the CEO has told me that you were one of the very first customers of us.

It's very straightforward. You're not doing anything nerdy, like TSBT or child seeds or parent seed or whatever. It's kind of the plan, however, wallet. But when you inspect the components, you also get to learn that it has to secure element, that it's fully open source, that there is a native desktop app.

Because one of the main reasons that I went all-in with bbooks from the Gegov, they used to be called digital bbooks back in the day, was that it provided you with a native desktop app instead of being an add-on.

Because back in the day, both Verser and Ledger were like, "You need to install this Chrome or Firefox add-on." And since the very beginning, I was like, "I don't want to fucking handle my vcon transactions with a browser add-on.

This does not seem secure at all." So that's when I was with these Swiss people. You can plug it to your own node. You can work with your own node. It has coin control. It has at least the minimum features that I use in Bitcoin.

It's very slick as well. I got sent one. You have one? I got sent one about a week and a half ago. I haven't actually, I'm terrible. I haven't set out the passport properly and I haven't set that up properly.

And I haven't built my seat sign yet. So yeah, I'm a terrible colleague. Max, Max, Max, you're not alone. I go to conferences and I buy all the gear and my gear seats there for one year until, I don't know, one night I'm very drunk and I just say, "Boom, I'm going to set it up tonight and I'll do it."

You do it drunk as well. I also, all my best Bitcoin tinkering is done drunk or high. Every single time. It's very rare that I can be sober and get anything done. Even if I sit all day and try, it will be fruitless. Nothing good will ever come a bit.

But if I'm drunk enough or high enough, things tend to eventually work themselves out. Yeah, so don't be hard on yourself. I'm pretty sure we're not the only ones.

And actually, I tell this kind of joke to everybody. If law enforcement, if the agents will kick into my place, they will be a startle because everything that they will find are hardware wallets.

So I have this pector, I have the passport, the foundation passport, I have like five or six different beatbox. I have a bunch of stickers, boobs. So there is nothing like, "Yeah, where's the drugs or the prostitutes?"

You know what I mean? There is nothing nefarious. They're going to find just something that they're like, "What the fuck are you on about, kid?" Yeah, it's life. At some point, we're going to set everything up and we're going to brag about it on social media.

It was this badass and I built this in grade two. But until then, when we keep procrastinating, that's life. I'm kind of close in thoughts here. To bring back the free open source software philosophy, there is one thing that I kind of keep hearing from running dojo people as to L.

That's one of the founders of running dojo. And a good friend of mine as well. I don't need to hide that. They always say the main narrative or the main purpose of free open source software is to allow for orders to fork and make of your product or your software better.

And the challenge is on you and not the person that, according to Rolfo, is leeching off of your work. The main purpose of the free software is to allow for everybody to come and fork and make it way better than you actually have done it.

Because it challenges you, so we all come together and we build better products, but without free open source software, then we don't get access to your code. And effectively, we don't have anything to build upon.

It's key, it's key that all these Bitcoin tools have reserved free lever open source software, and that's something that it's admirable, at least in the summer I wallet ecosystem, that most tools, if not all, are fully free open source software.

So anybody can do anything. I think I have to give a huge round of applause of clapping to spiral wallet cray raw, because recently he was spotted that he was working on integrating will on his power wallet, which will be huge, because that means that we can

get a such a sophisticated great wallet because it's parallel wallet I just use it for the first time like one or two weeks ago and I was like, wow, this is amazing. But the groundbreaking news is that if Craig manages to pull it off correctly, we get a reliable and sweet desktop client to work around we're full.

And I think that's that's pretty novel and that's pretty amazing, because do far what you do is you do your role, your clear or your key, your graphical user interface or your terminal on your laptop with your workflow and your samurai, it's not the same.

And with this power, we will be way different because you're actually seeing everything. And it's a native best best about I'm very excited and I hope that Craig pulls it off. I'm very sure he's very smart.

And, and I want to to congratulate you on the 21 is a crowd because I see you doing great work over there as well. Thank you.

Even though they're, they're total maxis and they hate on me. I know that they hate on me a couple of them. But, yeah, I don't know, we have some, some beard he passed. I don't claim that I'm an angel because I'm very trolley.

But I love their work. I love their designs. I love their articles. And of course, since you're doing the pods, I, of course, I'm biased and I like you and your accent that I'm always making fun with with the other max that just made.

And speaking fast and saying content, it's fun. I think I have a sweet spot for for three days, people, and mainly because of Elmo and some other characters. You're just hilarious.

Well, I keep. Thank you. Well, yeah, I mean, the 21 is some stuff is great for me. I very much enjoy trying to shine light on, because I tend to take code sometimes design.

And, you know, it means that I get to feature some of my favorite people and Craig Raw is an absolute fucking legend. And obviously we featured samurai on there as well.

And it's nice for me because, you know, we try and shine light on the projects that I think are really important. And what Craig is doing is fucking awesome. And one annoying thing for me is because I'm still running Spectre.

And I'm waiting for this star labs laptop that a few others that you know are also waiting for us fucking winding me up because I keep waiting and waiting and waiting and my idea was right as soon as I get that laptop.

Then I'm going to run Sparrow on it. I'm going to do everything fresh. I'm going to have a completely fresh start. And then I've been, I've been not wanting to put it on my Mac book so I'm yet to actually run it but I've seen it in action

and just speaking to the guy like he's a proper, proper Bitcoin and like the stuff. I'm sure great things are going to happen for them. It's beautiful. Well, it's beautiful. I think I I'm settled with with mobile for mobile samurai, of course, and for for best of Sparrow and I'm all set.

And whenever I feel like tinkering, then we got the foundation password or the Spectre. And it's just fun. I think at the end of the day, that's that's kind of of my motto. It's just nerds. We're used to a bunch of nerds. We're just doing nerdy stuff. We're just having fun. It's Bitcoin and that's the end of it. There is no.

I don't know the S2F by plan B that it's going to be $100 trillion. I don't care about the $100 trillion shovel that up your ass. Don't talk to me about that. We're just changing your TxO. We're just having fun and hanging out.

Yeah, that's how I look at it. And Monero, I look at it as just another tool. And the other fun stuff, because we get so busy and we get so distracted with talking about, I don't know, segued or native segued, rap segued, hardware wallets, software wallets, KYC, nor KYC.

If you didn't know, I can remind you and your listeners, there is way many other things that we can focus on that are still somewhat related.

To give you an example, you can switch from using Windows or from using macOS to using Geno Linux to any distribution. And that's a rabbit hole in and of itself. And you're already using free open source software.

And you're not using anything related to cryptocurrencies, but you're still moving forward saying goodbye to the big brother, saying goodbye to surveillance capitalism.

You're empowering yourself while you're not using cryptocurrencies, but there is a lot of doors that you need to go through, or you need to visit that are also empowering you and the others that communicate with you.

Or for instant messaging applications, today you can try 3MA, tomorrow you try Signal, tomorrow you try Telegram, tomorrow you try RYER, you get what I mean.

So you get to try some other tools and dive into these other organizations that I mentioned at the beginning of the pod, and you're just having fun and learning and kind of networking with like-minded individuals.

And that kind of becomes itself feeling prophecy, because eventually everything is going to be interconnected, and everything is going to benefit you in the long run.

Yeah, definitely. Linux especially is the next rabbit hole for me. That is the one where I'm finally want to step away from my Apple stuff and start learning about it, because it does seem that, you know, everything with Linux seems like it's so beautifully aligned with Bitcoin.

And I feel like a fraud when I'm using my MacBook and everything else, I feel like my iPhone and stuff, and it's step by step though, and like you say it's just having a play around and doing it in a way that's fun, because if you push and push and push, and like if I said today, "Oh,

well I haven't set up these hardware wallets and I haven't downloaded Sparrow and I haven't done all these things", and I try and sit for the next 2 weeks and do nothing else, I'm going to hate my life.

If I can do one in a couple of days after I've had some drinks and then another one in a few days and just enjoy it, I think that's the way forward. It's about having fun, like you said.

Yep, yep, totally agree, and we need to keep in mind that privacy is not binary, it's not black and white. It's not like, I don't know, tomorrow I close all my accounts, I close my bank account, I don't know, break my lease, move to the Bermuda Triangle, everything is crowded through the door.

I don't know, I change my identity, go through a surgery and change my face, privacy is not like that. You're going to end born out and you are going to spend a lot of money and it's going to be a stress, not enjoyable.

You do small changes, you take small steps over time and then you make substantial progress, but across time. So instead of being black and white, it's more like a scale of grey.

So you go from being, I don't know, very light to being very dark, or however you want to see, look at this scale. The point is, you need to do it progressively, not from today to tomorrow, because it's not, it does not work like that.

And in the end, if you actually want to be effective about it, you need to start being proactive, when you say no, like when you're talking to the cashier and they're going through the usual shielding of, oh, we're doing this credit card application, would you like to apply or something like that?

Or we're giving you the, the required card, always say no to those, because those are tracking fucking bastards that they just implanted the bomb to follow you everywhere you go.

And they actually know when and what and how you want to purchase things once you sign up for their rewards card or the credit cards that are the store sponsored. It used to follow you every purchase that you make at those chains.

Should I get rid of my Poundland reward card then? Yeah, yeah, yeah, nuclear rewards card or sign up for them using fake names and fake addresses. I don't know, do as you, as you see fit, use fake numbers too.

There is tools for everything, man. That's what's so exciting and engaging for me. Anything that you think of that you can hide or whatever, you can go online and ask your friends in these communities, and they're always going to be like, yeah, I use this tool or I use that.

Yeah, so it's pretty, it's pretty important. It's crucial vital that you actually go in and kind of leave your your introversion. If you're introverted, you leave that behind the door, and you actually go ahead and ask the questions or hang out.

Because tomorrow, whenever you have a doubt or whenever you're in a pinch and somebody can help you, those are the people that can provide you with the answers to your questions, or that you can do a cahoots with, or that you can swap some coins with.

If you don't build your communities, if you don't build a strong relationship precisely with these internet-based friends, you're going to be in an island. Who you're going to ask for help? Your mom who says that Bitcoin is his camp, or, you know, you're not going to have the like-minded individuals around you.

Yeah, no, that's one thing that I'm so grateful for. And one thing that's kept me doing this show, to be honest, is just getting to meet people and making friends and being able to reach out and ask these questions.

You know, you do not find this in normal life, like you said, it's not just that, you know, my mom thinks I'm fucking crazy, it's that everyone thinks I'm crazy, and no one gives a share of that sort of stuff.

And so, to find a group where I can chime in and speak about this stuff is invaluable. And, you know, I really appreciate the time when you and everyone else has helped me and creating these telegram groups to make it possible and giving back, because it's, you know, a lot of you guys

are very far down the rabbit hole, and you don't have to help people. You have to take your time. You could be moving on for yourself, but, you know, it is very much appreciated.

Yeah, no, I appreciate the kind words, just shift past your way in and just hang out and find your niche and just just strengthen it. That's the most important part, just just strengthening it. And just strengthening it by just day to day communication and, and being up

like, I don't know, in the past year when I first joined the samurai community, it's been progressively like, it has shifted from we're just hanging out here and just keep posting and throwing shit at everybody deliberately to, I don't know if I go through

my inner procedure, medical procedure, I talk to the other max and I'd be like, yeah, I'm getting my people or whatever. So, so there is some trust that has been going on, and I do appreciate that.

Yeah, it's 100% I'm 100% on the same page. I lost all my normal friends. I don't know what an army friend is. I only have my internet friends that I chat with through encrypted applications. And I usually trust them more than my neighbor next door, precisely because they're into the same things that I am.

So do you need to to build those communities and appreciate them. And, yeah, definitely. Well, I've appreciated this call. It's been really good to get to chat to you, mate.

I really enjoyed it. We've been chatting for a while in the background. And, as I said, I do appreciate what you've been doing. So, thanks for coming on. And thanks for sharing. And if you are ever in the UK or near me, you have to reach out and go for a drink.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. That's one of the biggest to do least, like, go to the UK and be like, Elmo, I'm here, Max, I'm here, the other Max. I'm here, everybody, I'm here for sure. And be like, yeah, let's hang out. I for sure will let you all know the account of that. I'm looking forward.

Cool. All right, mate. Thanks for having me on. Have a nice day. It's been an absolute pleasure. Speak soon.