Openoms on El Salvador and Home networking for Bitcoiners

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Yeah.

Yeah. Alright, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space, and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Welcome back, everyone. Today's episode is with Openons.

It's been a while, and it was good to get the updates on the RASPIPLETS project, sea lightning, and also his recent trip to El Salvador. We got quite into the weeds at the beginning, and the El Salvador chat happens about halfway through.

But we talked about VPNs. We talked about home networking. Sea lightning. The differences between the two implementations and Bolt's 12. We covered a lot of ground here. And as always, I love chatting to Openons.

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Can you hear my dog snoring in the background, or is that not coming through? And I can't hear the dog, it's all that. Good. (laughing) Am I from the end at the door? That's cool. Yeah, how are you doing, mate?

Yes, doing well, thank you. Keeping busy. Keeping busy with all the things being done with the rest of thelets and I'm just sorting out some networking. I VPN up every device in my home with another provider, separate server for everything.

No, I just changed the firmware of my router and you know, stuff like that, which is like, wow. (laughing) It's been a lot of work but a few better. And what did you use for the routers? Is it like one of these PF sense things or you flashed custom firmware on one you already had?

Yeah, PF sense is for like, you know, bigger machines. So I've proper, I have like router hardware, like Lexis and Netgear stuff, which can be flashed with like DDWRT. And on one of those, I've switched to OpenWRT, which is a bit less flashy.

So say not that of a nice interface, but it has like proper Linux package management and things like that. It's just like very similar to operating a Linux on your desktop or like on a headless server.

This is, but this Linux runs in router and it's quite reliable and has like, you know, more up. It's more up to date and more all the security, vulnerabilities and stuff is fixed in its quickest I've found.

So that's what I prefer now over DDWRT, which is a bit more like, you know, DDWRT is a bit more like your existing kind of factory image router interface, whereas OpenWRT is more like a Linux thing.

It still has a GUI, it's just, you know, you need to do like package management and to look up this and that, but it's quite good. - Is this something I need to have a play around with? Because as I said, I'm mid move.

So I'm literally, as we speak, surrounded by boxes and shit that I've got to get out today. And then I've got a bit of a gap before I get my new place. So I'll just be like sofa surfing and like messing around.

But when I do move, it's like a big thing that I've been speaking to people about is I really want all devices in the house to be running over VPN. And I've had a few different people suggest different things.

Lot was suggesting similar to what you're saying. And I was like, all that sounds a bit heavy for someone with my technical abilities. But then Brother Rabbit came up with this little, I don't know what you'd call it, like an intermediary that goes like into your existing router.

And then you connect everything to that. And that runs, is it wire guard or whatever it is that you have on the... And it's like a hundred dollar device. And so he's been testing that and he's had some pretty good feedback.

The only thing he said that's been an issue is that he thinks that in a larger property it'd be difficult because the Wi-Fi is not as powerful as it is on the router. So you can get extensions and different things to sort of boost that.

But he seems to think it's really good. I can't remember the name of the device. - This is a GLI router. It's just a small router, is it? - It plugs into your existing router, yeah. - Well, it plugs in as a video network cable, right?

So basically, okay, so since you don't seem to know what that is, then I describe what I have and what has proved to work during a lot of moves and kind of battle tested in terms of, you know, advanced networking and stuff like that as well, as just being able to set it up in 10 minutes now, after I've done it a couple of times.

So I get my ISP, obviously the internet provider like, you know, BT or Virtual Media gives you a modem router, right? It's modem and a router in the same thing. So you need to log into that and just switch it to modem mode only.

So it doesn't do the routing. It doesn't manage your home network. It just provides the internet connection. And with that, you take another router, which, you know, for like 1,200 pounds depends, depends what kind of performance you need.

I mean, if you, so it can be just a simple thing even an older one, just, you know, supply like N or AC, grade Wi-Fi with like a couple of big antennas. And you just plug into that, plug in that to the modem.

And then that just, it's just plug and play basically. You set up the Wi-Fi access point and things like that. This router as well should be flashed with one of these open source firmware, right?

Because then it doesn't report you to your ISP and to ASOS or Netgear or whatever, right? It's very easy. That's like, it's easier than flashing the Calix OS on the phone. It's just uploading a file and rebooting.

And then you can do all your setup on the graphical interface. And then you take a second router, which is then can be your VPN router, which can be messed up, right? So you will have, so you have an internet connection which you can fall back to, or your devices, or your wife, your family can be connected

to this clearnet simple plug and play thing, which is already open source and not reporting things you don't want to report. And then the second router can be, it will basically create another home network.

So like, if you have like 192.168.1 and the fourth number for the first one, this will be 192.168.2 or three or whatever. So it will be a, it's called a subnet. It will be a different subnet.

And then this subnet can be controlled. So on this router, again, you flush an open source firmware. It can be a different kind of order, same. And then you can put your open VPN configuration on it or even via guard, which is much less CPU intensive.

So if you have this, one of these, I mean, these routers are like, imagine them as like a Raspberry Pi, compared to a desktop computer. So like PF sense, you would use on a desktop computer.

These router firmware are designed to run in these kind of ARM, Raspberry Pi type kind of devices, obviously with a lot more ports and stuff like that, antennas, et cetera. So, and then yeah, you set up the open VPN client or whatever configuration you have from your VPN provider.

And then whichever, and then you have a separate access point for this one. So you can plug your privacy sensitive computer onto the second VPN router with a physical cable, right? Or you set up another WiFi on it, which will be your VPN WiFi.

So any device you connect to that one will be going through a VPN, yeah? So it is, and then if it doesn't work, or like if your VPN provider claps up or the subscription stops or, you know, whatever, you can always fall back to just very easily, just connect to your other WiFi access point or just plug your cable to the other router.

And this is kind of, and the good thing is that the first router, the simple one, it doesn't do much. So it can be a cheap one. Like you're only interested in the radio performance basically.

And the second one, because it is calculating the VPN, you know, the encryption of every data going through it, it needs to be a bit more powerful. So that should be like, you know, something like a 200 pounds device or something.

- Okay. - If it's, if you go down, simple route. But you can have, you can have a cheaper, like if you are using WireGuard, that's, that needs less much calculation than, I mean, it's much more efficient calculation, much more efficient encryption than open VPN.

So then if you are using WireGuard, you might be able to set up it like, you know, a 50 pound device, where you're only paying for the antenna, but not for the CPU and RAM, right? - Yeah, quite like that approach where you have different levels as well.

It's almost like, you know, you have your guest networks and you have different sort of levels of, oh, well, I'm going to use this part for this and this part for that. It seems to be quite a nice option because like you said, sometimes it just goes down and then you'd have no access if everything's running through one thing

and you're a bit fucked. So I like that. - Yeah, I mean, I told you, yeah, you don't want to, I mean, there are a couple of good things in this. That's, first of all, not everything is going through your VPN.

So, I mean, you know, lots of times you need to trust the no VPN policy of your VPN provider, right? Because if you, and that trust model basically just shifts all the data from the ISP provider to now, it is with the VPN provider.

So, you know, it's, and also if it's like, all in one basket, right, you know, all of your, you know, if your family's Facebook activity is going through the same connection as your, I don't know, tool browser activity on a block explorer and stuff like that, you know, that is not an idea, right?

Because it still can be kind of, could be grouped together. For example, at the VPN provider, right? But if you just, you know, you just generate some, a bit of traffic like a normal person has some so-called norm, norm is what's connected to your, you know, clear that router or fall back to it from time to time,

then, you know, the, or the encrypted data, which is like coming from the other endpoint or router, it would be just, you know, it's, it's not only that leaving your house. So, it might be beneficial in that sense as well.

And then, you know, and then you're not annoying your, your family to death and, you know, you are setting this up and takes a day or like, you want to change something and now everything is scrubbed up and you need to reset everything.

And now all the passwords change or the Mac addresses change. And, you know, I've got enough ways to annoy them without doing that as well, as for sure. See, I mean, it's just difficult to write all this up because it's very, very individual, you know, what kind of devices you have.

But then, and then you have the, have the point when you are just setting up the VPN on your device, right? That's what I was doing. I was like running different nodes, even different like inside virtual machines or jails.

And, you know, they have their own VPN connection, which is like, you know, another layer. And then even on my device, it could be on my laptop. It could be connected to VPN on the laptop.

And then I can open a browser window and the browser extension could connect to another, another IP address, another VPN, right? You have like layers of this thing. And everything comes from a different IP address or goes through a different IP address.

So it's kind of, you can know what to do. And then now we started this podcast. I mean, I don't know if you're recording this. - Yeah, yeah. I've ninja launched you. - Ninja launched. - Straight into the weeds.

- Yeah, no, I mean, I know the technical is being recorded. I mean, you will see if you publish it. But for this, I was just falling back to my coconut connection because I wanted it to be, you know, the least problematic.

- Me too. - And basically, you know, basically Zankaster couldn't know where I'm connecting from, but yeah, it's not really connected to my identities. - Yeah, that's the difficulty, isn't it?

It's like, even if you have all the security all the VPNs running, like I do find when I try and record with it on, I quite often have issues. So it's good to have the different options. And I'm setting up later this evening, I'm finally gonna set up my star book has arrived, my new lighting setup.

- Those look beautiful, yeah. - It's so nice. It's really beautiful. Like I haven't even switched it on yet because I haven't had the time to sit and flash pop and start messing around. I wanted to sort of do it with a bit of a clear head, not mid-move, but I'm hoping tonight I can sit down and do that.

And then it's kind of like a fresh start. It feels like, okay, I wanna try and not make any mistakes or make less mistakes this time round and be a bit more methodical about it. So I'm quite looking forward to that.

- And since I've seen that you have linked this geologist, the geologist, the geologist throughout to me, I have a similar one, just a smaller model, like a 31 model, which doesn't have external antennas, but it comes very handy.

It just goes from a simple micro USB. And I can go and clone a WiFi, for example, I go into university, I get a password, log in with a laptop or with something else and then I just can transfer the MAC address and the internet connection basically to this little WiFi and then it can act as a hotspot.

And it can be done, like it's like a mobile router. It's many times a fun, it's very, very handy. 'Cause if you just only have one cable connection maybe, then again, it can just make an hotspot out of it easy.

- Nice one. And so what's been happening with Raspberry Blitz? What's the updates you've been working on? More clever things for mixing or what's been the updates? Does it see lightning you've changed to?

- Oh yeah, I mean, I was, since I was implementing it, I needed to put a bit of skin in the game. It's amazing, really good to explore either an ecosystem. I mean, once I'm familiar with lightning, it's much more easy to know what I'm looking for and then pretty much everything you have for the L&D settings or solutions,

you can find it for sea lightning and even more often. So it's just a different approach. You don't have that many kind of graphic interfaces connected to it, but the capabilities are all there and being there even longer than for like L&D some things.

Like with this networking connected to this, there's like L&D came up with this, skipping the ability to skip the top proxy for clear net endpoints. I mean, that's why I was into this VPN rabbit hole because I mean, so far, I was like running the nodes, like through Tor only every connection goes through that,

but with lightning, running routing nodes, you would be concerned with the lag, the Tor connection generates, which is like five times more than just going through clear net, right? So that means you want to have like visa-like feeling, paying or the people routing through you would prefer that, right?

And that means like one connection just, you know, back and forth to a server, not even doing any lightning calculations, takes about 0.4 seconds, like that's for like 400 milliseconds from like a home connection or that's what I found.

I had in a VPN that adds another 200 milliseconds on the back and forth, right? So I'm now 0.6 seconds, which is acceptable. So imagine every hope you are paying through. So if I'm paying through a direct channel, then, you know, I can be under a second, but if someone is routing through me, then, you know, by definition,

they would be having 0.6 seconds added to their payment, at least. I mean, you know, there could be multiple back and forth and, you know, plastic calculation, disk writing and stuff like that.

But then you add in Tor, and instead of the 0.6 seconds, you get to like 0.9 is the best, but often multiple seconds, just because it goes through multiple hops inside the Tor networks, which are, you know, it's congested, it's slow, it is de-doused, whatever.

So LND has this new option that if you are not worried about exposing your public IP, then you can access the Tor things over Tor, but then the clean up things you wouldn't go over Tor. - How do you feel about that as an option?

- Well, it's, I mean, it's practical. It's just that if I don't activate VPN, then it would connect out from my home IP, which I honestly don't want, right? But, I mean, most people are running routing nodes and how it is really meant to be done.

It would be somewhere in the data center, which is very good connectivity and minimal, like, right? We are talking about payment infrastructure to the merchants, to the bird, you know. It's like retail payment infrastructure.

So this is not the privacy oriented use case where you would just have your Tor only node at home and you would pay out from there and you wouldn't care if it takes 10 seconds, right? - Yeah, so do you see that kind of being the way things are gonna go is that you have like, clubs who will be at home having everything running over Tor

and they don't care. They just want their privacy. But for the infrastructure, for most things, as you see lightning build out, that it will be big data centers, that it will be clear there.

And then it's kind of like, that's the way it kind of has to go just simply because it scales better and it's faster and all the rest of it. - I mean, look, this is just, this is just how the internet is built, right?

I mean, even a Tor relay node, you know, it wouldn't be at home, right? It would be in a big beefy server room with connection to like multiple ISPs, no downtime, minimal lag, right? That is not something you are paying at home, right?

You have like, you're paying your internet connection, like 30, 50 or how many pounds and that's what you get. You have like, reasonably stable, but quite slow and definitely laggy internet connection, which is okay to stream video and, you know, do web browsing and stuff like that.

But if you want to route, you know, thousands of payments per second on your multiple hundred channels, I mean, that's not gonna happen, right? - Yeah. - So, you know, these are the use cases.

I mean, you can be like a privacy-focused routing node, like you can run your routing node at home and connect back to it with your mobile wallet or just with Zeus directly. And, you know, receive payments, running a shop or something.

And that again, you know, that's not sensitive to be very fast, but it wouldn't compete with like, you know, maybe a bad example of what we like in L&B, or like with the EOS node run by an Xbox versus stuff like that.

And that's why, because it doesn't have the infrastructure. It's just not just sets you need to throw onto it. I mean, that's the other question as well, that like a routing node would need quite significant amount of money on it, right?

Exposed to the internet. And without like proper expertise, I mean, people put a lot of trust in these pre-packaged node softwares, right? And then we have seen kind of vulnerabilities exposed and, you know, people losing money because they just didn't change default passwords and the implementation didn't force that on them, right?

Because, you know, the focus is good UX. Everyone should be able to run a node. But I mean, you wouldn't want to put your life savings on this, right? Anything equivalent to that. Or your company's savings or things like that.

So it's just, we need to find, you can't have your cake and eat it too. - Cake and eat it. (laughing) - Yeah, exactly. And when I set myself up again, like, 'cause I've obviously, I've taken my raspile and it's offline now because I'm moving.

But when I boot it back up, if I was to say, all right, well, I want to go now and try C Lightning. And to be honest, like, the main reason I want to try it is because I'm interested in this Bolt 12.

I still don't fully understand, you know, why and how it works if I'm completely honest with you. But like, the idea of having this static QR sounds like a really cool idea, especially for like the podcast and other things like that.

What will I run up against? Can you see any issues that I'm going to come up against doing it? Or is it a relatively easy switch for me to say, okay, I want C Lightning and I want to be running that instead of LND or can I run the two in parallel?

- Yes, you can. So the way C Lightning is implemented, you can, when you start a new node, you can choose between LND or C Lightning, or even there is an option to not run Lightning, but that's not really the use case of reference bullets.

So in which ability you start with, you can start the other parallel node as well. So it's just, you know, because it's stored only, you don't need to worry about ports being already taken and, you know, there's no problem running these things on the same machine.

So that was the point that, you know, people don't want to just kind of nuke their existing Lightning nodes, I wouldn't want to do that. I mean, I'm running LND as well and experimenting with C Lightning.

You go into the settings and just activate the C Lightning and then you will have another menu similar to LND. You have a Lightning menu for C Lightning and it will have a couple of options.

And then in the settings menu or the services or both there will be a couple more options exposed with the C Lightning activated. So you can set up like RTL, which is, which I mean, at the current version, it needs to have a little fix to work with C Lightning, but I mean, people can just run a comment called patch in the comment line.

But you don't even need RTL. If you want to try both of you would install Spark Wallet, which is, which gives you web interface as well. It's a mobile app as well, but it's a web app basically.

But in any way, you install Spark Wallet and then it gives you web interface a bit more simple than RTL because it only shows you the Lightning stuff. So none of the on-chain activity. And there you can create redeem, decode, both have offers a bit like some minimal settings.

So you can test this and otherwise C Lightning is pretty much works the same way as L&D that you have the many options to kind of fund it. It has an on-chain wallet, on-chain part of its wallet.

And then you can connect the nodes and open channels, close channels, pay and receive with the, obviously they bought 11 style known styling voices as well. If I then download this wallet on running C Lightning, I get one of these QR codes.

People can then send sets directly to that and it will then come straight to me and then I can trouble it with the keys that I've set up on my Raspy Blitz. Is that right? - So in terms of offers, yes.

So I mean, you need to have like some channels for this, right? - Yeah. - And then a very interesting thing and what is, could be very interesting for people who don't want to, who are interested in Lightning, maybe want to have their own Lightning, Lightning node for privacy purposes, not really to provide payment infrastructure.

You might even be able to earn back the general opening fees and things like that, but this is not like a reliable income. So there is a CI Boss automatic node manager plugin for C Lightning, which is people compare it to L&D Autopilot, but it's nothing like that.

It does much more. It does select peers, open channels. So selects the peers from the Lightning gossip. So it basically looks into what is the most, which gives you the best connections in terms of benefiting the network as well.

And so it doesn't just blind the opens channels to the most where connected nodes as like the primitive Autopilots do. This stuff do open channels to some nodes, which could be good to connect to.

I mean, it has quite a bit of logic in there. And then it rebalances the channels through the board's exchange, right? So it sends swaps out and then runs the rebalancing script as well. So, you know, some channels it pays out from and then it gets the balance from other channels into it, et cetera.

And then opens other channels, sets the fees up according to the traffic and how the payment flows are. And it just doesn't stop, right? So you don't need to do anything. You start to think, see how boss, you found it.

The recommendation is to fund it with like 0.1 Bitcoin. It's probably quite a good amount to have on a routing node at home. So that would, you know, make you like, you know, five, 10 channels from it.

And it will just keep it functional, right? And then it changes the fees automatically all the time. I mean, all the time, meaning it comes back to it from time to time. It keeps an eye on the mempool state.

So it only sends on-chain transactions when it is actually low, right? If it looks at a mempool for two weeks, if it sees that multiple times it's been one set per byte, then it won't even send the transaction with two sets per byte, right?

It would rather wait a couple of days when it sees that it would confirm in the next block for one as well, right? So these kind of little things, which you wouldn't have time to do, right?

I mean, I love it when I can sit down like Saturday night and, you know, no one is transacting. So I can like open, close my channels, but realistically, that's not what I like to spend my, Saturday night.

(laughs) - Yeah, so you can go off to hang a pipe while this does it for you? - Exactly. I don't even need to think of it. And I mean, obviously these transactions, the rebalancing, everything, it costs some money, but, you know, there are reasonable intelligence in this that it won't break you.

And it also generates some routing fees. So, you know, ideally, I mean, at least some of the costs can be recuperated with routing. But most importantly, it provides your service that now you have a functional routing node.

It's like, you know, you just installed this thing, funded it and waited a day or, you know, depending on the member, it could be longer. And you have a functional routing node, which now you can send and receive payments, you know, as you like.

And even if you keep receiving payments, you know, it will balance your channels. So, it won't fill up, it won't stop working. And once this is done, then you can go into really test your offers, because you know what needs to be known in terms of, you know, needs to have channels, needs to have public channels for now.

And because there's path-blindening is not implemented yet, right? So, these offers will just provide an endpoint on the Lightning Network, where other nodes can connect to and ask for an invoice, basically.

So, it's like the Elanura code, like if you go to your lntxbot.com/at, max bit-by-bit or whichever, whatever your telegram username is, you will have a static QR code, QR code with Elanura pay, right?

Which is a server running on lntxbot.com, right? Which aesthetic QR code. And when someone scans it, the Elanura server will provide an invoice to pay, right? So, you can tip this static QR code all the time, because it always provides you a new invoice, right?

But that doesn't, so the static QR code is just the place to go to ask for a new invoice, right? That is Elanura pay, yeah? So, both web is the alternative of this, but the difference, biggest difference is that this end point is not at lntxbot.com, but it will be your node ID at your door address, yeah?

So, that's where people go and connect to, and they will be able to ask for an invoice and pay it. - That's really clever. - Without you doing anything, and you don't need to run a web server, right?

So, anyone can do this. And then, further down the line, when the privacy feature like path blinding is implemented, then it wouldn't need to expose your node ID and door address in this one, but you will only give them an onion, encrypted, or onion packaged blob, a package, which then,

they would only see where to send it next, and only the next hop would see where to send it next, and then you will be the last hop after a couple of in the path. And no one would see onion packaging, right?

So, everyone would only see the outer layer, and no one would see the inner layer only. By the time it gets to you, it will be detached from the source, and we'll get to destination like that.

- Do you see this helping with people who are creating content, or they are maybe providing information that their governments might not want them to, or they need some form of protection, but they also need to fund themselves?

Do you see this being quite a big step forward for that? - Well, this is a hardcore privacy feature, right? This is, so, like, you're like paying in like a bit. - 47? - So, 78. - I get lost with all the verbs.

- 47, no, you're correct, payment codes, right? So, this is the same, but with all the advantages of lightning, right? That you can send a micro payment, you don't need to send a non-chain transaction to set this up, and you can pay it from, I mean, once the balance is compatible, you could pay it from any other thing, right?

Imagine paying something like this from someone's strike account, or like their custody of wallets, or on an exchange, or just their routing at home, or their mobile wallets. So, it's just very practical, but, I mean, we need to, I mean, the adoption needs to be there.

It might take some time for this to work as a privacy feature, but we would need to be adopted by all the implementations, basically, and we would need to have things like, you know, on-end messages and stuff like that, which is currently not possible in most of the network, but the C Lightning clients do this already.

But the record, what is payment, that the static payment code kind of think, that's the first step, and that is the most straightforward, and it's already well-functional in the C Lightning code.

Eclair is implementing it, meaning that, you know, like Phoenix Wallet and things that that would have it, but as, you know, the board to have the talk says, by rusty, that, you know, don't get your static QR code tattooed yet because the difference of code can still change.

- Interesting. The other thing I want to ask you, and we've got quite into the weeds here with some of the technical stuff, or at least for me it is, but I really wanted to ask you about your recent trip.

I'm desperate to go. I just can't at the moment. You know, I've heard a lot of talk on Twitter. I've heard from a lot of people, hyping and sometimes I try not to get too excited with things because I think that a lot of the moon boys over-exaggerate the good bits and under-report the bad bits,

and I thought, you know, you're always very measured with the way that you look at things. So I'd love to hear from you, what you've thought about your recent trip and yet what you can tell me.

- Yeah, so yes, we indeed got into the weeds very quickly and yeah, and the big thing for me was that I've been having the opportunity to travel to El Salvador in like a month ago now, to the adopting Bitcoin conference, to take part there in the hack space and I've been on the panel and also just meet all the people

are gathered there to kind of help this country out of the Bitcoin and especially with the focus to the lighting network. So that was like very, very interesting to me. So yeah, I spent like 10 days there and it's been fantastic.

I mean, I haven't been to Central America, Latin America before, so there's been a way new. I mean, it started that, I mean, this like El Salvador is not far from like its neighbors. It's like, oh, I don't want to, it's like Colombia and Chile and places like that, but you should rather look at the map yourself.

It's not far from the equator. Yeah, yes, yes. So yeah, these like Latin American countries, it's a topic of paradise, basically. You have like lots of vegetation, very nice weather, sometimes some clouds and even rain during the winter, like normal, but the ocean is like 26, 97 degrees,

sparkling blue and you have like this nice humid temperature, but I mean, probably it would be too much for me and during the summer, but at this so-called winter time at this 26, 30 degrees is just like amazing, you know.

So, I mean, that is a big advantage. There's a lot of untouched kind of, there are a lot of forests or this is full of volcanoes and the beaches are not that developed either so you don't have these crowded hotels and you know, McDonald's and stuff like that in the beach, but you just have like surfing schools

and fishing villages and furniture many times with this black sand in a lot of places. So, physically it's an amazing place, but obviously it had a bit of a difficult history and being in like a civil war for like 20 years, if I know correctly,

and stopped to be like that maybe like 10 years ago, and then it's connected to the stabilization itself and then a bit of a safety improving is connected to the current president, Naipuk and the coming into power, but came into a place which was like leading the verse statistics in the number of murders, there's been gangs,

you know, crime related to kind of, you know, drug trafficking and I mean, it was something which made the headlines because of the wrong things, right? In like the year 2000 and like the 2001 to, and then it improves since a lot, they made roads, basically newly built, some healthcare system which is, you know,

which they managed to kind of look after the people during like this pandemic as well, and it just feels like things are pretty much working, but it's like, you know, it's country which is coming out from some very dark times, but people are very nice, they are like, they are easy to speak to, very helpful,

obviously Spanish speaking, but many of them speaking English, I don't speak Spanish, so there's been a bit of a difficulty, but you're okay, I mean, that's feeling absolutely fine to like walk in the streets and stuff.

- It looks beautiful, like you said, like just physically, the beaches look stunning, you know, like you said, it looks like a tropical paradise, and I know, obviously it has its issues, but what was the sense when you got there, you said obviously the people are nice, what was the feeling that you got in terms of

this place developing, because there's been, obviously a lot of attention on it with what's happening with Bitcoin and volcano bombs and all this sort of stuff that's all over the place. Do you feel that the people that you interacted with, the locals that you interacted with are kind of,

they're on board with it, and there's like a feeling of, we're gonna build, we're gonna create something great, or do you feel like there's actually some resistance, and actually it's more of a show to get people to invest and go and spend their money there?

- I think it's not really a show, it does matter to the people there, because I mean, as we know from the statistics, and that is what it is, that during these turbulent times, a lot of people have left El Salvador, and they are like working abroad, and you know, basically sending money home, which is like, you know,

it's at a different level how much easier it is with Bitcoin rather than going through something like, you know, Western Union or whatever, especially if you're like, your grandma left at home, you know, she won't have like a bank account in El Salvador, you know, so how can you send money to her?

It's, even if you think that, okay, she might be able to walk to the Western Union and think Booth or whatever it is, I mean, that's just a dysfunctional thing. So now these people have like a wallet, which has the government provided them and gave them some free money,

but to that wallet, which is quite bad implementation of Bitcoin and special lightning, but it's wallet which is open in terms of it can communicate to the outside world. So it can receive, because it just exposes you are a lightning, I mean, a lightning invoice, but also just an on-chain address.

Anyone from the world can send money to it with just participating in the Bitcoin network, right? There's no permission there to receive money. And the same way, especially on-chain, which works more reliably in that Chivo thing, you know, you can send money out as well.

So it can communicate to any other wallet. And then, okay, this onboarding could have been, it could be done better. You know, education is what's needed. Most people there as well are new to Bitcoin.

I mean, we speak about people who don't have like savings and stuff like that. So, you know, if you don't have some money to put aside each month, then you won't be thinking of, what do I invest in?

You know, you won't be interested in like stocks and bonds and you won't have multiple bank accounts. You know, the things which are like normal to us in England, or like, you know, most of the Western world is just, you know, not existent in the country, like El Salvador or, and for most of the world to be honest,

the bigger part of the world is not living like we do, right? So they're familiar with having cash in their hand, which is US dollars in El Salvador, right? That's the official currency since like 2012 or I, yeah, it's better to look it up what the proper history is.

Maybe it has been earlier like '97 or so. Anyway, that's what they're used to. And now they, I mean, the people I've interacted with were either into Bitcoin already, because, you know, that's why I like them.

Or there's been like a merchants on Bitcoin Peach, right? Or taxi drivers, people in the kind of twist industry, like tour guides and people like that. So these kind of people, they speak English, they know and they find a way around of things and, you know, they, they find their living.

So they would be having these Bitcoin wallets already and then they would say, I look, I mean, you know, since I started this, I saved like, I made like $300 just because of, I've kept my money in Bitcoin and, you know, they would keep some dollars and they would exchange it to dollars because obviously,

I mean, and these people need to be aware that like price can go down like short term, you know, it's not, it's just speculation. And also they need to buy like, for example, fuel in the cars, which is not sold for Bitcoin at the moment.

So they would need to go to the gas station and pay the dollars. So when you ask them, do you want to have like dollars or Bitcoin? And I mean, you know, many times, look, I need to, need to fill my car, so I need dollars.

But I like Bitcoin too, kind of thing. And they're growing into it. And then if you go into like a more like general place, like in a, in the Sun Salvador capital, for example, you walk around and then you ask people if they, if they accept Bitcoin or, or do they know what it is?

I mean, most people wouldn't, but the young would do. And then if you want to pay, then, you know, the seller of the, of some, you know, street food would call their child there and they would open their wallet on their phone and then they would accept the money like that.

So it is very interesting. But, you know, it's a great way to have people educated that, you know, let the younger generation explore things and all the, all the kind of entrepreneur minded people like, you know, the tax drivers and tour guides.

And I mean, they will have the rest of the population on board and then once they see some value in it, like they are able to receive money from abroad or, I mean, you can spend cash without permission as well.

And, I mean, typically, I would do much online payments. But I think it's just, it's just three saving money and the convertibility of on the spot or to anything that you can go to the ATM and you can put like Bitcoin in it and you can get the paper money out.

I mean, it is useful. You can see use cases, it's not a tourist attraction, right? Obviously to us, it seems like a great idea. I just wondered whether there was pushback or, you know, how people were really feeling.

But it sounds like maybe it's a generation thing and like you said, the younger generation, they're probably adopting it more. And then maybe it just seeps into the culture and like you say, they start to realise that it is actually very useful for a lot of the things that they're gonna need.

I really hope so. Like, it seems as though it's a fantastic opportunity where you've got a country which is beautiful and has issues at the moment, but could really do well. Did you feel when you were there that this is the way it's gonna go, especially with like this city and a lot of the stuff they're talking about

with these bonds and stuff. Like there's definitely in the back of my head there are concerns, I'll put it this way. I'm very, very keen to leave the UK soon because we have things happening here that I'm not comfortable with and I can't be bothered to get into it on this chat, but I'm not happy with what's happening in this country.

So I don't wanna be here much longer. But then at the same time, I'm thinking, well, I could go somewhere like El Salvador. I could get the citizenship for, you know, buying a bit of land or whatever it is, it's three Bitcoin worth, so I could sell property here, go over there, spend that money and I could go there.

But then at the same time, I'm like, he's come out and said, "Oh, we're not gonna do back-to-passes." He's come out and said, "We're gonna build this city. We're gonna have these volcano bonds, blah, blah, blah."

But at the same time, I'm like, "Well, he is a politician." (laughs) And so, you know, I could go over there, the sort of semi-settle up and leave and it's not a simple thing to do. And then suddenly they could just go, "Yeah, no change their mind, tough shit."

And that is a concern, like, what's your gut feeling from being there for a bit of time? - I mean, this period is, it's a transitory period, very, there's a lot of change going on. I mean, in El Salvador itself, I mean, everywhere it is, but there, the potential is just, I mean,

these people got this tool like basically pushed on them, or like kind of dropped on them, right? And now they're familiarizing themselves with Bitcoin, right, with this currency, which has no leader and it's not tied to any country, right?

So this is like such a step ahead and such an advantage compared to any other country. And you know, they are in an environment which is livable, right? It is, they are living much better than like 10, 20 years ago, even if that is like, you know, it's like kind of this third word feeling to it,

but you know, the people seem to be okay, right? They are managing their lives, they don't seem to be struggling. And even if it's just the outlook is better, not the actual life circumstances, you know, that just, you know, if you look to a child and see that look, you won't be dying of hunger,

probably you will be well off kind of thing, you know? That is such a big difference, even if you have, you know, not that much to eat day by day, but that trust in the like chain of events which seem to be developing is just, that's what I've felt this kind of positivity from the people, right?

Like just just generally from the life, but you know, the president is not, it's not a king. It's like not like, you don't have his, I mean, his portrait is like out in the airport and you know, places like that.

But you know, but if you go to people's houses, hotels to interview people, it's not something that you know, El Salvador is not the president of, but he's doing something which is, which is, it gives power to the people, you know, inalienable power, which comes with Bitcoin.

And you know, they are being told to be self-sovereign and even, I mean, what the worst case scenario is like, you know, I mean, I wouldn't give these two other people if I just want to rock wood and completely, right?

But obviously there is like concern about like, you know, the government has some money, what happens with that money, it has been taken by other politicians before. And you know, it just typically happened in these, in these kind of countries.

But I mean, you don't even need to presume that the politician is like, well meaning when the best interests would lie and just carrying on and, you know, taking this country to where it's good.

Yeah, I agree. It would be logical that you would continue on the trajectory that they're on. And so I guess I'm less concerned with the Bitcoin stuff because I'm like, well, he set it up in such a way that he's taken the power from himself or, you know, he's taken some power from himself, which gives me confidence

because I'm like, okay, well, that was a move that empowers the people. I suppose my bigger concern would be like policy choices on the Vaxman base and stuff like that because that was something he came out very strongly saying, basically you fucking do as you're told and you will have it.

And then it changed to know everyone has individual freedom and rights. And I was like, okay, all right, you know, this is pretty interesting. You know, what you wouldn't want to do is go from a country like the UK that's about to take everyone's human rights away to go somewhere like that and then suddenly get rubpled

once you bought the property, you know, because there's no, there's no-- Yeah, see what you mean. It's not like there's money held in a multi-sig and if he changes his mind and flip-flops suddenly that he loses anything.

It's just literally, you can just go on Twitter and fucking change your mind. But I think that's probably more of an issue for me and at least 10, 15 Bitcoiners in Europe that I'm speaking to are thinking the same thing.

Like, we're all going, well, do we just fucking leave? Like, do we just get out of Europe because we can see where it's going? But all have the same worry of, like, are we going to go and this is going to happen?

Yeah, how can you trust? Technical issue, my browser just messaged me that it's run out of this quota to save the conversation and best restart. OK. Do we want to make sure that we are saving this?

Yeah, should I just stop it? I'll download both bits and then we jump in. We've done about an hour anyway, so we can jump back on for a little bit and then close out. Yeah, no, I would be very happy to discuss further.

There are a couple of things which came up during my stay there with converting to other people. So, OK, yeah, let's take a quick break. Part one at the break. Right, mate. Cool. Yeah, all looks good.

I've got my coffee. Yeah, me too. This is great, actually. A little refuel. Yes, if we would do this in person, then we would have ordered coffees, right? Exactly. We'll have to do that soon, maybe before I flee to South America.

Right. So, yes, this is a great topic to get back to, because obviously most people who are going there were sort of checking out the area, including the German friends, who were hanging out with, anyway, a lot.

They formed a kind of official self-appointed, but kind of official German delegation, which have been in contact with the ambassadors and stuff like that. And they were like on buses with army escorts.

They have been taken around a lot of sites and the Bitcoin mine on the volcano and coffee plantations and stuff like that. And they even made it on a front page of a local newspaper like the saying that the German investors are admiring

to Cally's work kind of, right? It's been obviously a big kind of outcry about that, because they did nothing like admiring. But they've been obviously looking at things. And they are not considering to invest just yet.

So it was very interesting to see how that went. I was happy to not be part of any kind of official delegation. I got like low key, as usual, apart from being a white European tourist. I can't really deny that.

Yeah. So why I was getting into this? So people were going and seeing some even in official kind of role. But everyone was seeing what's all this about. And somewhere there since months, weeks, some were staying for further, some were planning to come back for the even closest new years and things.

And I mean, this is a big problem. I'm kind of an, so say, expert myself in the UK. And I don't own any property here. For the reason I don't need to-- if I make up my mind, I'm flexible.

I not tie down. But I'm settled in a way that I am living in the same rented place for years. And yeah, it's an interesting thing. So I wouldn't even-- I mean, that's a way of getting residency in ourself.

But that's when this kind of-- that's when this Bitcoin bond comes in, or a volcano bond, that there, by the way, there's been an excellent podcast with Stefan Levera, just his most recent one with Sam Sumau, who was obviously helping out from the roxing side to set this up.

They go into every known detail about this bond and how it would work, even on the technical level on liquid or what the terms are. I mean, not everything is-- I don't know if it's not decided or not clear yet.

I think it doesn't need to be clear, since it's not available to buy yet. So once it comes up in first half of next year or something, then things will be more clear. But what it says, that it would offer residency for 100k, which was at the time of when they thought-- this is probably the same 3-bit coin thing.

So it might be 150k at the moment, or if you're calculating in pounds, then that will give you residency. And then the end of the five-year period, when you get some more kind of bonus coming to it, so you're holding the bond for like five years, then you would have-- probably this is not written down yet,

but you would have an option to have citizenship as well. So in that case, you wouldn't need to buy a property. And this thing is, if you don't want to hold the bond, then you can trade it.

It's an asset on the liquid network. You don't even need to go to a marketplace. You can trade it peer to peer with the people who are eligible to hold it. That's how it works technically, that it's full KYC.

And first, you can only get it from like Bitfinex, but that not need to be the only platform. But once you have it, you can have it in your green wallet or something where you have a second signature on it from the platform, which is tied to KYC.

So it's regulated. It's a security, right? It's a bond. But you can do it with the bond. You can self-cost it and you can send it around within this regulated circle. So just, I mean, it has much less risk than having a property which you would probably need to be physically there.

And if you choose the wrong neighborhood or it changes, then you could have trouble with that. I guess so. I mean, I kind of look at it as there's a few different plays here. So let's look at it through the lens of, and this is a lens that a lot of Bitcoiners in Europe are looking through.

I want to go somewhere different if certain laws are passed. So my options are, I can speak to somebody like Katie the Russian, and I can go and buy a passport at one of a few different places.

And maybe that buys me some time. But these things are like $80,000, they're not cheap, and that gives you the residency. So that's an option. Then you have the option that you just put forward, which is like, well, potentially you could buy one of these bonds and you hold for a certain amount of time,

and then you get citizenship at the end of that term. Or you could do the same presumably with property, but yes, it has the risks. Like you said, you could buy in the wrong neighborhood, you could have squatters, you could have all sorts of problems.

But if you did it right, the other way of looking at it is if you were to buy property and you bought well, even if it's land, for example, then you could actually do quite nicely out of that and you get the residency and potentially citizenship as well, and it would give you somewhere, if you're actually moving,

well, having a property or having land that you're living in is not such a bad thing, 'cause if you're buying the bond, you also need to rent. So I guess I don't know what would stack up better, because 50% of this bond is held with Bitcoin, so then if we believe Bitcoin's gonna do what it's gonna do,

then that's potentially a better investment, but what are these people, where are they gonna live? If they've got a flee Europe, do you think that people would be better off renting or what's your thoughts around that?

- Well, I have no problem renting, or someone buying something for three-bit coin, and I can just rent a part of it, you know?

So coming together in a bit, you know, former community, not not like a bond with some land. (laughing) - Well, if you're more than one, or if especially if we're talking about our families, then the options are many more, right?

And you can share the risks, and also can be much stronger and can be in a much better position if you come together with people. I mean, this is a very interesting alternative, I mean, obviously I've been not in kind of big and proper to say, I didn't even think of this, to be honest, but a conversation which came up with the, you know,

some very good people hanging out there a lot is sailing and having a boat and connected to it, having property where you can actually keep your boat, and you can leave, come and go as you feel without, you know, going through any kind of borders, completely permissionless.

- Ah, that's very interesting. - Well, I mean, you know, it's something which is, you know, I've been growing up in a landlocked country, I haven't been, you know, it took me like 15 years to get into the ocean for a swim first time, but maybe even more, I think that was only a sea.

But, you know, like especially thinking through from England, from, you know, a boat park of 100k, I mean, much as I've been told, much cheaper also, you could have a boat which is capable of crossing the ocean, like the Atlantic.

Yeah, and I mean, you could park it and you could, you could, you know, you could come and go as you like. This is an asset which is comparable to having a private jet, but I mean, slower, but even better.

- Low time preference. - Low time preference, and like in terms of sovereignty, it is the ultimate solution of being able to go where you, where you're treated best, and then if you can have see from property, in places, you know, in a place like El Salvador, and maybe another place

which is less warm, but maybe more stable like, you know, somewhere in Northern Europe, or, I mean, I absolutely don't know much about like the Canadian coasts and faces like that. But there are so many unexplored options here which I'm absolutely ignorant of so far.

But yeah, I mean, I would say consider it. - Having property that would have a mooring or that ability is a very interesting approach. And, you know, we've talked a lot on our Mezdadell talks and I've been speaking to Seoul and a few others about the idea of having boats.

And I suppose if you have a few people who have moorings and they're dotted in different countries and you have this network, you can all sort of watch each other's backs and look after each other because let's say, I take the plunge, I go, right, fuck it, I'm out.

I'm going to El Salvador, I'm buying this property and it has the mooring. And then someone else stays in the UK, someone else goes to America, you know, wherever. We can then suddenly if, "Bekkady, then rug pulls me and goes, "Ah, I got you, you bought some property, "now I'm going to force a vax on you."

I can be like, "Oh, bollocks, you've done me there." But at least, at least I can get in my boat and I can fuck off and I can go and see open arms and go and see Seoul X and I can escape.

And vice versa, the same thing. Like wherever someone else settles, if, if Bekkady doesn't rug pull and he's actually ends up being a decent guy and all of these ideas that he's talking about come true and it becomes a paradise, then everyone can go, right, come around mine.

You know, bring your boat more up and come stay. So it definitely, when things are so turbulent and uncertain, it does bring a lot more choice, that's for sure. - Yeah, and from an interesting point of view, I mean, imagine that being one of these points where people go and moor, right?

You can just welcome someone on your property. I mean, that's amazing to me. I don't know how this works, and if it does it have any kind of legal implications. - Probably. (laughing) - Yeah.

But it's just, you know, something being physically possible, if, you know, if you're going Mad Max, then you would probably want to be on the sea, rather than, you know, walking the roads of Europe.

(laughing) - Yeah, I think so. So, I mean, yeah, it is something which needs to be considered, but it's the most important thing about is the people you are, like, you are relying on or cooperating with, I think, and that's...

So it's less dependent on some, Mr. President, in some country than the actual place you can find, and the people who can surround you, and people surround you in the physical space. Now it's, I need to explain that same way as in the digital place, space, right?

(laughing) Now we seem to be living in the digital space, but, you know, by again, quite lucky enough to be in a stable environment which can change, unfortunately. - Yeah, so lots to think about.

I mean, I definitely think that more and more people are gonna be making a move, and I think the idea of sort of maybe people communicating and saying, well, okay, say there's 20, 30 people from Europe who are seriously considering whether they're in Austria or Germany or, you know,

that Australia or any of these sort of potential prison camps, they can say, well, let's band together and look at some property and potentially share infrastructure because, you know, one of the things that I'd imagine thinking blindly, 'cause I haven't been there, but I'd imagine that in certain areas,

if you're buying the land, you're gonna have to get power there, you're gonna have to get water there, you're gonna have to make sure that you can get infrastructure built, and if you're sharing it, it's gonna become much more cost effective.

So if you had enough people coming in together, the same, as well as like economies of scale when it comes to building projects and the actual acquisition of land, if you had enough people, you could probably get a much better deal and also create like a little bit coin area or a little area where you watch each other's backs as well.

You know, like for example, I'd feel much more comfortable if, you know, few of the people that I know are my neighbors or close to me than I would just being completely plunked somewhere.

I don't know anyone, no one knows me, no one has any allegiance to me. I would probably feel more comfortable that way. - Absolutely, I mean, this, and this imagined situation you just described, you know, it would be, you know, I would be in a better place than I'm in the moment.

I mean, it all depends on how you can sustain yourself. - Yeah, but once, yeah, I mean, you know, once you're in a community, there will be always something to do. It is, oh, I mean, it's an amazing thing and such a liberating thought just to be able to do this and I would encourage everyone to think this through

and, you know, would, yeah, you know, I would be in in this kind of place, you know? You know, another good thing in El Salvador that I've met no mosquito at all, you know? - Really? - Which is, I don't know if it's a season, but that's been quite nice.

You know, you could leave the windows open and it wasn't, it wasn't any problem. I could be sit and like, the Airbnb, one of them that have been had like hammocks outside, you know, and I'm thinking, oh, wow, that looks scary, but then got some people, you know, staying over there and they had no issues.

They were just watching the sunshine in the sun rise in the morning. - So good. - Had no issues. So, I mean, you know, places like that, I mean, that's quite a big advantage to start that you don't need to get ready for like a freezing winter and you need so much more energy if you need to heat your house.

- So, yeah, get away with like in a coconut leaf, you know, like a banana leaf hot, yeah, realistically. You could run those in the surf beaches, right? And you just rent one of these things, which is like a bit of dirt plastered together to make a wall and has banana leaves or like coconut leaves on the top.

- Did you do some surfing when you were there? - Well, I did try, I mean, for the first try, you know, you can hardly manage to stand up on the board. I think I've managed a couple of seconds maybe, but it's lots and lots of work and a lot of swimming.

It's good for you for sure. - That's great for us. - Yeah, it's great. I love the water and then especially if it's not like icy cold as the north and the sea or the Irish sea is around here.

So, yeah, that's a great sport. Here's beautiful waves. I'm just watching it. It's nice, but yeah, you can go into it and take a bunch of surfing. Like especially during, if you get to a beach early on, then there are plenty of people going out before the sun burns and then same in the evening, like at the sunset.

I mean, this whole country is like, you know, it's on the western coast of this peninsula. It's kind of a bridge, like between, like north and south of America, right? And it's on, the whole thing is just western facing.

So, you have like sunsets everywhere, seeing the sun going into the ocean. It is cheesy as it sounds and it looks even cheesier. That's amazing. - Yeah, that sounds beautiful. Well, yeah, I mean, if anyone's listening to this, anyone from the Meisterdale and wants to sort of jump in with some ideas and be a travel buddy,

I think, open arms, you've done a great job as a travel agent here. I think you've sold me the idea of at least going out and testing the water and seeing what it's all about, that's for sure.

- Definitely. I mean, if going there, I would recommend to start learning Spanish. I mean, as I understand in this Meisterdale podcast, you have a couple of friends who are very speaking.

- We've got a few, yeah, we've got a few Spanish speakers. I can get by enough to order a few things and basic, basic stuff, but I would, yeah, I'd want to brush up before going. But that's no bad thing.

Like Spanish is a fucking cool language. - Yeah, it's nice also, yes. And, you know, you need to be able to fix the boat's engine at least. So, yes, I mean, I'm glad that we didn't really go into the political part of things to this, because I mean, I'm no politician myself and I cannot really order, you know,

what these people are playing, 'cause I just don't know the rules. I don't know the game. - I don't think even they do, you know, it's a pointless, it's a pointless conversation, a lot of that in many ways.

I think it's just giving ourselves enough options and knowing that we're not going to know what their true intentions are or what anyone's going to do. We just have to give ourselves options and it certainly seems like an interesting option at the moment.

And yeah, we'll have to sort of see how things develop, but it's exciting. And it was good to speak to you about it as well, because there's been a few people who have been hyping and I just thought, well, I want to get a real feeling from someone who's not going to give the bullshit and I think that was really good.

But yeah, mate, it's always a pleasure speaking to you. It's great catching up and we should really do something in person at some point. But is there any other bits? I know we've now gone away from all the technical stuff, but are there any bits that you're working on at the moment that we didn't cover

that you think are particularly interesting or any other bits about El Salvador that we can just finish up the show with? - I mean, yeah, yeah, El Salvador. I mean, just about this, like between city and things like that, you know, it goes to a direction when it seems to, the playbook seems to be encouraging

this kind of free private city approach, which, you know, you can do it in a smaller scale with the mesh that all, I mean, a country or like a president wanting the best for its people and for the stability of the country and you would want to have like these economic hubs, which are like stable, reliable and, you know,

like popping up all over the place. And that would dictate what, you know, how the country looks like, you know, in a generation. And this Bitcoin city idea is, I mean, the places, in the first round of bonds, you know, they will just spend on the energy generation, basically.

So volcano bond, right, to be the power generation. But this place is, I mean, near a power source and also near a bay, which would be either already is or would be suitable for a quite big port.

So speak about mooring. So this is something which can be done in big. And, you know, it could be a place where, you know, property is reasonably expensive and then you could, you know, renting would be expensive, but business is blooming.

But, you know, being like an hour away on the boat from there wouldn't be a bad thing either. So, yeah, I mean, I see, we'll see how this, how this will work out, but the people there are, you know, are seeing the value in this, I think.

And at least there is a direction where the country is going. It's not just, you know, even if it's been as like a CGI plan, you could at least have something which you can reach for. I think that's good.

So, yeah, I don't know, I don't know if I would move there, but it would be coming together with people who would want to start something. - You know, don't leave me behind. - I'll bring you, I'll drag you along.

- Drag me. - All right, mate. Well, yeah, I'm gonna start pestering people now as soon as I get off the call and I will be dragging you along if we go. - No, that's great. Yeah, thank you, Max.