Orange money with Black Coffee. Bitcoin

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

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Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Alright, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space, and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back, everyone. Today's episode is with Black Coffee. I'm sure you'll recognize the name from Twitter. He's really cool. I got the chance to meet him the other day at our camping trip, which was just fucking awesome.

Really good to just be around proper people, real Bitcoiners. People who care about freedom seems to be a rare and dying breed in this weird, weird world that we're living in. But yeah, it was a great chance for me to catch up with him today.

Talked about all sorts, and yeah, I really enjoyed this one. Before we start, I want to say thanks to my sponsors, Cryptoclopes, who have been sponsoring this show for about six months now.

If you haven't checked out their website, it's cryptoclopes.com. They've got all your 3D printing needs on there. I've got a few bits that are on their way to me in the post. I can't wait to receive them.

And you're going to love their stuff, too. I'd also like to thank Coin Floor UK. Coin Floor have been sponsoring this show right from the beginning. They are a Bitcoin-only team. They are the only exchange that I suggest to people in the UK.

They do proof of reserve. They've been doing this for a long time. They do things properly. And if you want to buy weekly or monthly, you can use the link in the show notes for 30% discount.

Enjoy the show. (upbeat music) - Hello again. Take two. - Yeah, how's it going? - It does sound better, actually. So you're running a Yeti as well. - Yeah, I've got one for work. I record some videos and stuff from time to time.

So it's handy to have something that gives you some decent audio quality, I guess. - Yeah. And it's not like silly money. I remember when I first started doing the podcast, I'd asked someone and they'd all order me all these different bits and had like a, I don't know what it was.

It looked like a mixing table with all these different plug-ins and different bits and pieces. I had like a whole box full of stuff. And it was shit. It was so shit, the sound quality was terrible.

And then I asked a few people who were already podcasting and doing bits and they were like, "Ah yeah, we'll just use this Yeti thing." And I was like, "Oh, you just literally plug it into the laptop?"

- Yeah, yeah. And it's so much better. It was cheaper and better. So I don't know what I was playing around with in the first place. - Yeah. I mean, like so many of these things, you can tinker and you can play around and really just spending some money on a out-of-the-box bit of kit, solves problems so often.

- Yeah, that's it. I didn't really get a chance to chat to you too much when we were away. It was a bit of a crazy couple of days on our camping trip. And I thought it was really gonna be a good idea to get you on here and have a conversation.

It was such a good time away. - Definitely. It was a brilliant few days. No, it was good to catch up. So I think we spoke a couple of times but didn't properly chat. Yeah, I mean, I'm sort of quiet person anyway, I think generally so.

I really had to, I'm quite introverted. So, you know, there are a lot of people there and I've not met anyone there before. So I really had to go on the way and I was like, "Right, this is a good time to interact with people.

Let's just do it." So yeah. Yeah, well, I think a lot of us there were probably a similar way, more introverted. It's probably the most people I've been around for a long time. And even though it was like, I mean, it was totally different to being around most people.

You know, it was all Bitcoin. It's all had a lot in common, some awesome people there. But even that, I found myself a couple of times just like wandering off to my tent just to sit quietly for five minutes and just like look at the stars or, you know, just like sometimes you just need that little bit of just quiet time.

So I get that. But yeah, it was nice to catch up and speak to you a little bit when we were there. And then since, you know, we were in the same chat room and it seems like you were doing a lot.

Like there's all sorts of projects you got going and from our conversations previously and the fact that you were a wiz on the computer, I thought, oh, you're probably some type of dev while I was like trying to find the keys and fucking everything up.

And yeah, I thought, oh, he's obviously quite technical. And then I've seen you're doing all your bits with your printing and all sorts of things. So what is your main thing that you're into?

Like are you a dev or? - Yeah, by far trade computer programming. So I don't know, like started playing around with computers. How old is that? Probably 11 or 12, had a little ZX Spectrum.

- Okay, and then just turned it into a career, you know, went through adolescence, discovered the internet in '93, '94. Just fiddled around since then. I sort of got to the point now where I'm running a company employing a few people, but still hands on a lot of the time.

Yeah, I love it. You know, it's just sort of technical problems to solve. And yeah, it's good and I find it. I can just sort of turn my hand to it quite easily. I think it's probably just being involved with it with so long, but you know, Bitcoin is another beast.

So the work I do day to day, it's mostly web development, mostly back-end web dev, but you know, try and dig into the Bitcoin source code and it's just, that's crazy stuff, I don't expect it.

Ever be able to be a Bitcoin core developer, but there's so many side projects going on. You know, the sort of stuff that we sort of been involved with and been in the same chat room, stuff like seed signer and some of these other little projects that are amazing things.

And I think there's, you know, I can get, I can jump in there and actually contribute and be of use. So that must be so cool to be able to, you know, really dive in and be able to play with this stuff on that level.

But like you said, it's from years and years of tinkering. And it sounds like it's something you actually enjoy and that's something I've found with most devs that I speak to is like, I can see a very clear difference where, you know, I'll have issues and I'll be like, ah, that's a fucking problem, it's pissing me off,

I hate it, ah, it's winding me up. And they're like, ah, I've got this really interesting problem, really, I'm looking forward to digging in and working it out. And it's like, it seems as though it's like a puzzle and the actual process of, it's almost like the process of tinkering and working something out is what it's all

about and that's the enjoyable part. It's like you're creating. And then, you know, to someone like me, it's just frustrating as hell and I don't enjoy it, but I'll do it 'cause I sort of need to.

But then I'll paint and create and I enjoy that. So I guess it's just different sort of temperaments and you know, it's your way of you're actually creating something is pretty cool. - Yeah, I think so.

The world's full of so many different types of people, right? But if you've got that sort of techie background, for a non-techy, I expect if something's not working wrong, it's just a black box and you don't know what the fuck's going wrong with it.

And it's just, you don't even know where to start or as, you know, if you've got a bit of a tech background, you can go, well, I can sort of see inside this box and I can move these bits and see what changes.

And yeah, it can be interesting sort of playing around with these things. So is that your sort of current interests and just doing bits of art and producing that sort of stuff? - Yeah, kind of, anyone who listens to this pod a lot will sort of probably have heard me talk about it a little bit, but yeah, I left my previous career.

Maybe it was like four years or so ago because I absolutely hated it. Like I hated it so much. I had always wanted to be an artist and my life just got absolutely turned upside down like really badly.

I had to leave school, I had to go. I had to just start earning money like immediately. And I put it on the back burner for like 15 years. I didn't, didn't do anything artistic for like 15 years, just earned money.

Then it just got to a point here about four years ago where I was deeply unhappy, didn't see the point in life, just was like, what the fuck am I doing? And I don't know what actually triggered me towards it.

I think it was someone close to me who'd said like, why don't you paint? You used to love doing that. Why don't you do? And I was like, I don't know. It wasn't really in the mindset for doing it.

And I just said, fuck it, I'm gonna do it tonight. And I started painting on my kitchen table when I came home from work. And I just didn't stop. I just like continued for as much as I possibly could as painting all night and working all day.

And it just completely changed my life. It changed my perspective on things. It made me realize like, what are you doing? Like doing this job that you hate with people you hate that you think is pointless.

And I really did like, I went to bed every night just thinking, well, I'm just gonna fix the same old shit that I've, you know, did yesterday. And yeah, like it doesn't push the world forward in any way.

There's no point to what I'm doing. And if I do this for the rest of my life and I die, like what have I achieved? And when I'm painting, it feels like I'm actually doing something worthwhile.

Like I'm actually creating something. And then when I see a painting on someone's wall or I hear someone write to me and say, oh, you know, I really love this. It makes me feel a certain way.

It makes me happy to know that someone is enjoying something I've created. So yeah, it is, it's like a therapeutic thing that I enjoy the process of. And then you enjoy it afterwards as well.

I can imagine it's probably a similar thing with development and like writing code or creating anything that people are gonna use because it's actually useful. You know, it's not like corporate shit where it's like you're just dealing with dickheads, doing something that's pointless, punching in numbers and like nothing else is done.

Like you're actually seeing someone enjoy what you've made. - Yeah, I think so. There's definitely some therapy in it. And it sounds like you've got that from, you know, producing artwork.

I think you need that sort of thing in your life. You can't just work, watch Telly and go to bed. You need more than that. And I think, yeah, I do get that sort of thing from work really.

You know, I've worked jobs in the past where I have just been like, what the fuck am I doing? This is, you know, it might be well paid and I don't know, you've got these external validations of what you're doing, like, are you working for this company and you're doing this sort of thing and aren't you successful?

But it doesn't feel very fulfilling. And if you're just knocking out shit that no one really cares about, what's the point? - Yeah. Yeah, 'cause it's like, I think the perfect balance is if you can enjoy what you're doing, 'cause most of the time you're working.

Like, that's like most of your life you spend working. So if you can enjoy what you're doing while you're doing it, then you've sort of nailed life, I feel. And it's not all about the money, although like we're in Bitcoin, Landon, obviously, what we talk about is money and why it's important

and how it works and how we can improve it and blah, but like, you know, but in terms of actually having huge amounts of wealth isn't really what it's about. It's like having the time to spend with your family, doing what you enjoy, feeling fulfilled, feeling like there's a point to your life.

And like you say, you can work for companies that pay you huge amounts of money and you can sort of, in terms of most people, through most people's eyes, they'll be like, oh, he's successful.

Wow, you know, he's working for this company or he's doing this. But none of that matters. You realize that, like, especially when you're doing it, you're like, none of this actually matters.

What is the fucking point? And yeah, to bring something into the world where it brings people joy is, I think, I think that's where you've nailed it. Yeah, I think you need to get your validation internally.

As soon as you start looking outside yourself for happiness, you're just going to run into problems, aren't you? There's that, quote, "hell is other people." I've not heard that one, that's good.

Yeah, I forget who it was. I'm probably misquoting it as well, but people take that to mean that hell is sort of the presence of other people. And, you know, I'm just, I'm a misanthroping, I hate everyone else, but really, it's more about difficulties in life, sort of hell, comes from other people's opinions of you.

So you want to not get stuck in that trap. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Trying to be someone you're not, I think, is where people really get lost, isn't it? Yeah, I think so. Well, I've had a couple of little times of questioning what I've been doing for work.

So I took three years up from sort of computer science type work to, I went and did a countryside management degree. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, 'cause I was just like, you know, you stuck at year in an office all the time, and I think at that time I was working with, I was working a job and really didn't like,

so it was a big push back against that. So I went off and basically just took three years and did that and, yeah, that was amazing. But as it turns out, if you've got a family and you're working in that sector, it's extremely hard to pull in enough money to keep a family going.

So you've got to make these decisions in life, right? Presumably it's quite useful what you learnt there anyway. Yeah, I think so. I think it gives you a different outlook on life. I've always been quite interested in that sort of stuff.

So, yeah, permaculture, gardening, just, I don't know, anything that's completely in a completely opposite to just tinkering with computers, I also find interesting. Yeah, and it's nice, like this whole idea of, you know, citadel theory or meshedadel theory is I try and push on this show and like,

being able to produce good quality produce for your family and like have a bit of a connection to the land is, that's such a nice feeling. Like I've only ever done it on a small scale, had a few vegetable patches and bits and pieces, but there's just something different where you're cooking something that you have grown

and you've built those vegetable patches, you've spent the time, you've grown it, you know what's in the soil, you know that you've done things properly. And then when you eat it, it's just like, it's different.

I don't know what it is. It's just like you know. Yeah, it's really fulfilling. It's sort of like producing artwork. It's a bit of an expression of yourself. Yeah. What I find with permaculture and sort of knowledge of that sort of thing is you're dealing with natural systems and you're not trying to get in there

and yeah, like so many people do with gardening, they'll be out with the weed killer and the lawn mower three times a week. I've got to form nature into my will and I've got to attack it.

Yeah, we can't do that. You're working with natural systems. You know, you can guide them. And really when you start to work with these natural systems and after, you know, it's not instant, but over a period of time you start to see how it all works and it's amazing really when you see it.

And I see some real parallels with that with Bitcoin, you know, in some ways it does sort of, it acts like a natural system. It's got these rules that it operates within and when people start fucking with it, that's when things go wrong.

Yeah, it definitely feels alive. And yeah, there is a lot of parallels with permaculture and Bitcoin. There's definitely a massive crossover. It seems, I guess it's almost like it seems that people who are drawn to Bitcoin and people who are drawn to permaculture just see that they're very, very frustrated

with the way that you're always fighting. And like you said, like you're always trying to just like morph, like everything's trying to be morphed into a certain regimented, ruled way that doesn't make any fucking sense and is a bit arse about face.

And then if you can sort of work out, well, how should things naturally flow? What are the incentive models within Bitcoin? And then what are the incentive models within nature? Because everything is very intricately woven and they work together.

Like you need all the different species and you need all the weeds to move the soil. You need the wasps to break down the apples or whatever it is that you're growing. So you need all these different things.

And like rather than fight it, you just work out, well, how does it work? And then how do I sort of go along with it rather than just sort of always going and fighting upstream? Yeah, yeah, definitely.

And this is sort of where Austrian and Keynesian economics oppose each other, right? Keynesian economics is all about getting in there and governments putting policies in place and trying to manipulate the market to give the desired outcome.

Austrian economics, my understanding of it is let the free market system and the incentives within it just let that play itself out. You let the bad businesses and ideas die. Yeah, it is.

You're right, it is. It's just literally it's letting nature play out rather than thinking that you're smarter than nature. I think that's what the Keynesian way is. It's like, it's a group of people who think they're smarter than everyone else and they're smarter than nature and that they can control this ridiculously complex system

and make it better. And all they seem to do is just make it much, much worse. Yeah, yeah, they're just pushing everything down the road until at some point it blows up or... Yeah, it doesn't work.

I think we're seeing that, it doesn't work. Are we getting to the point of a few, you know? So many decades of Keynesian policies just about to bite us all. It certainly feels that way or bite most people and then really, really benefit a few.

(laughs) On the, like in a more extreme way than we've maybe even seen previously. Yeah, it definitely feels that way. Is that something that drew you in to Bitcoin or was it the tech side?

Not at all. Yeah, it was just the tech side. So I was looking at this this morning. I was trying to figure out when I first... No, I wouldn't say got into Bitcoin but first sort of played around with it.

And I've seen to, for some reason, I thought it was 2011, 2012, but it wasn't having looked at the price, the prices and when I knew it first bought, it was sort of 2013, is off the back of this slash dot article.

2013 and I've read it. And at the time, I was just, well, like I always do, just tinkering around. So I read the article, when I was at work, went home, sort of downloaded Bitcoin, QT, I think it was at the time.

And I think, well, I remember then, like this is so long ago. So I remember he's super fuzzy. You had to buy it. You sent him money after some random bank account. And I must have sent it by receiving address to someone.

And I was like, why has this not appeared? You know, I've sent the money. It's not appeared in this Bitcoin wallet but the blockchain was still sinking. And I came back to it a few days later and I was like, all right, there's my .1 Bitcoin which I thought, I think it was like, it was 10 quid.

So Bitcoin at the time must have been, it was .2 Bitcoin for about 10 pounds. So that was, that gives you a sort of like random idea of when it was, I was like, okay, this works. I've no idea what to do with it.

It's just magic internet money, whatever. Move on. So format of the computer, lost the Bitcoin. Carry on with messing around with computers as I do, like installing different types of Linux and that sort of stuff.

And that was it really, until 2017. But even, you know, that whole thing was just about the tech. I had no understanding of the economics of it. What, even while it was designed to solve, you know, the whole thing of the 2008 financial crisis and removing the power to control money from governments,

that didn't even really cross my mind at the time. I think back then, there wasn't really the concept like there is now. There's just so much content now, isn't there? You could, you, if you get on Twitter and you follow a couple of accounts, I expect there's a new person using Bitcoin within a couple of days, you're gonna be,

okay, the point of this is to disrupt the system. - I think if you find the right part of Twitter, for sure, you're gonna find that. - Or you can just end up a knob giving people grief and you have no idea why you're doing it.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can either do that or go down the shit coin path or, you know, you can definitely get lost. I think it's hard, I actually think it's still hard to find like proper Bitcoin Twitter and to find the good content.

There is so much good content out there. Like every day someone's dropping an amazing article or podcast or, you know, creating film or art or music or whatever it is in whatever medium, there's so much out there.

But you kind of have to, you have to find this little niche part of Bitcoin Twitter where people actually care. 'Cause also you can really get lost in like all the charts and all of that and sort of, you can miss the point.

I've seen a lot of people do that and they're just like, "Oh, I'm gonna get so rich, oh my God." - And like, they're probably not wrong. Like I think most of us agree like this thing is the best asset on the planet.

Like you'd be crazy not to want to get as much of it as you can but it kind of misses the point which is like, "Well, you want the freedom and you want these dickheads "that keep trying to control things "and are fucking it up constantly "to not be able to do that anymore."

'Cause otherwise, what's the point? You know, what's the point in having a load of money when you're not free? It really doesn't make any sense. I think once you get that, then that's where you start to have the really interesting conversations and start to think about, "Well, okay, what do we do now?"

'Cause I sometimes find like, I have those conversations with the people who are, like the moon boys, I guess I would call them, kind of find it a bit boring because it's like, I don't know if you find the same thing.

Like, there's not a lot that someone can say now that will make me any more bullish in terms of price. - I think price is irrelevant really. You know, we all want to get to the point where we're freed and is there.

And I think, you know, really that's the main reason why I'm involved in this is for freedom. And it's not just financial freedom, but freedom from everything else, a government control of money and all the just the messed up incentives that come with government having control of the money.

But yeah, I think you're right. Talk about price, it's gets pretty boring pretty quickly. I don't understand it. I see a couple of people posting up charts and just like, yeah, I mean, you're reading tea leaves and it sort of makes sense.

- Yeah. - But I'm not trading it. And I played around sort of 2017, 2018 with all the ICO nonsense that was there. I was like, I'll trade it for a bit. And whatever, for like 95% of people more, they're gonna lose money at best.

I'll get absolutely wrecked, so it's a zero-sum game. And the people who are doing well know what they're doing and everyone else is just losing money soon. - Yeah, yeah, definitely. And all the different sort of conversations that people can have all day, every day for years and years about, you know, what assets this is similar to.

And trying to explain why this thing is just gonna continue to increase in value. It's kind of like, well, yeah, I know. Like, I know it is now, because I've heard it a million times. You know, you can explain it as digital goal, or digital real estate, or explain that the financial system is gonna collapse and explain how, you know,

you're gonna continue to have massive amount of money printing at all. Everyone's gonna converge on the best money. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it's like, yeah. But it would be useful to actually make sure that we keep this thing secure and that we make sure that we understand how to use it.

Because, you know, if suddenly the world goes topsy-turvy and you've got all this money on an exchange, or you've got it on your ledger live or something, and everything, you know, nothing's gone through any coin join.

Nothing's actually properly away from the tyrants, because if they start, if they come for you, they're like, oh, you bought X amount, and it's been on this exchange. And now we can see that it's only had one hop and it's here.

Well, they're just gonna come and knock on your door. And it's like, people will, on one side, go, oh, yeah. Well, you know, I'm here for the freedom and, you know, I'm worried about the government's coming for me and blah, blah, blah.

And then they do that and then you think, well, do you really see what could come? Like, if you look back at history, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that you get a knock on your door, you know?

I don't think that's unreasonable. If we get to that point where the existence of this thing is starting to threaten nation states, they're not just gonna be like, oh, yeah, well, you can take us down, this is fine.

They're incumbents with huge amounts of power. They're gonna try and shut it down at some point. - Do you think we're getting there? Do you think we're in, do you just think it's getting to that point, yeah?

- I think we're way off, but what do I know? I mean, it's interesting to see how people like Michael Saylor, for example, I think they fully understand what this is. But you look at how he communicates and he's just like, it's not an attack on the dollar.

So I don't know if people seem to, well, the government may be buying that at the moment. Maybe it's going to be too late. I don't know, are we at the point now where it's too large assistance to be able to be taken down?

I don't know. - I know the general consensus is that no. - Well, yeah, they wouldn't be able to take Bitcoin itself down. They can stop people using on-ramps fairly easily. Because that's the restriction, right?

I guess it depends on where you're coming from. If you're coming from the point of view of as an investor, okay, I want to put some money in here. I've got, my thoughts are in 10 years time, it's going to be worth huge amounts more.

So you probably, you need to come on via an arm ramp of some sort, whether that's like Coinbase or Bisk, if you know what you're doing. But, you know, the government's going to just say, well, we're just going to kill the on-ramps.

Any bank dealing with any on-ramp, you can't do it. Is that what stops it? But that doesn't stop Bitcoin. It just stops people from being able to buy Bitcoin, buy a bank account or whatever system.

If people want to carry on using Bitcoin as an alternative economy, they can. - Yeah, I mean, certainly. And it would take a lot of collaboration between nations and all sorts of things to really sort of make things difficult for people.

- Which they can do. Like, yeah, I'm not going to go down this vaccination rabbit hole because it's just, I don't want to even talk about it, but you've seen that, I don't know if there is a coordinated effort there with vaccinations, but they seem to be able to coordinate things worldwide if they really want to.

- That is true. That is true. And that's, I think I've had a real switch in my head personally the last year, specifically because of the whole COVID stuff, because I've always been anti-state.

I've always, I think we all know unless you're a complete idiot, you know, like these people are not here to help you. These people when they tell you, you know, we're going to do X, Y and Z when we get into power, you know it's bullshit, like everyone knows that.

But to be honest, like maybe I was naive, but I didn't see what's happened coming. Certainly at this pace and it's really fucking scared me. Like you say that the coordination, the compliance probably is scared me the most.

And so what it's made me think is I've been like, well, if you can get away with doing what you're doing now and pushing for some of the ideas that you're pushing now, and I've said on the show before, I don't care if someone's vaccinated or not vaccinated, but don't fucking tell me what to do with my body.

That's the line. And so if people go along with that, then what's to stop them saying, right, this group of people who want freedom money are insert label, you know, whatever they want to come up with, it must be stopped, it threatens, again, insert label, come up with any sort of bullshit.

They either come in prison or worse, anyone who touches it, you have to go and hand it in, they 60-102 it, and it has to be done because otherwise the economy is going to collapse because we've caused it or whatever it is, they can come up with a million different reasons.

And none of them have to make any sense because there's so much logical inconsistency with what's going on now and everyone, not so long with it. And because a small percentage of the world hold it, there's not gonna be many people fighting it 'cause if you don't hold it, you don't give a shit.

It's like, oh, well, that's the other. I don't care about them. And so it does make me think, well, they could certainly do that. And yes, you know, Bitcoin as a system wouldn't die and anyone who has no KYC Bitcoin or it's mining, no KYC Bitcoin, whatever, they can continue to use it.

But suddenly the risk factor will weed out 99.9% of people. You know, all the people who are saying, oh, fuck it, never hand it over, blah, blah, blah. It's like, if they make it illegal and then go and door-to-door and they're gonna imprison or kill or whatever else they wanna do to someone, people have families, people have things

that they have to protect. And as much as people say they care, a very small percentage of people will actually hang on. And so it has changed my views and I think it has made me much more paranoid and much more thinking, well, you know, we need to push the idea of people thinking ahead.

You know, think five years ahead. You know, look at the trajectory of the way the world is going and plan for worst case, learn to use these tools. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, people laugh on the internet saying, well, you know, you'll never get my Bitcoin, but I think if this one's threatening

to imprison your family, take all your assets. Are you really going to? I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, I think most people just want an easy life. And this is Bitcoin has nowhere near mass adoption.

And I think that's because majority of people just don't want to have to think about anything. People are happy, they're going to work, popping on a telly when they get home, having fun with their family, just enjoying their lives or trying to.

Do they want to smash the state? This is, so sort of coming back to work, but I work for myself, sort of can pretty much do what I want. And I've always had a very negative reaction to ever being told what to do.

And I think pretty much whenever I've left a job, it's because someone's told me what to do, which is not a good way of keeping employment, is it? So it's got a very anti-authority mindset.

And, you know, sort of my teens and twenties, spent a lot of time skating, going out in punk bands, just super into the whole punk ethos. I feel like it's built into me, just hating authority.

But it definitely gets people's backs up. Whenever you, but I've noticed in my personal life, whenever you broach any subjects and it's even worse now, any subject that's even slightly against the norm.

I don't know, like personal finances, individual responsibility, diets, schooling, anything like this that's not how 99% of people choose to live. If you try and have those conversations with normal people, you get so much pushback and it's just scary.

I think people, they want this thing of the matrix, the blue pill and the red pill. People want to stay in their bubbles, don't they? Do you think that's just human nature and just that that's how most people are naturally built?

Or do you think that that is the education system and the media and everything that we're sort of told that's been pushed, that makes people that way? - Yeah, I don't think it's human nature.

I don't think we still exist as a species if that was core human nature. You're probably right. It probably is all these external things, you know? - You get hammered, it's like, you know, you're saying, you're skating, you're in a punk band, so that's you in your teens, how many times are you told?

Cut your hair, stop doing that, stop running, don't make noise, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, whatever it is, don't be so stupid. That's, you can't say that, you can't think that, you can't, you know, and people are kind of like herded in these little, it's like, you can't say that, you can't think that, you can't do that,

that's not acceptable in society, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is, and I think that there are people like you who will go, well fuck you, that makes me wanna do it more. (laughing) And like, yeah, yeah, don't tell me what to do, you tell me I can't do this or I'm gonna do it even more.

And then you have a lot of other people who are like, well, when I say fuck you, then I just get shouted at more, or I get, or I have to, I have to do detention, or, you know, I'm grounded, or this happens, and you know what, like, I don't really like that, it's not very nice to have confrontation,

it's not, I don't really wanna, I just wanna, like you said, I just want an easy life, and so they slowly but surely like crawl into their little cage and then put the lock on, and they're like, I'll just stay here, 'cause it's safe and easy.

And that maybe is just, I don't know, maybe it's some little streak that runs within certain people where they're just like, no, I'll just keep saying fuck you. - I think so, there's definitely something within Bitcoins I've noticed.

I quite enjoy it, I can't enjoy a bit of confrontation. If it's for a real reason, I'm not just gonna start giving people grief on the internet for fun. But I think if people do need calling out and stuff occasionally.

- Yeah, and I think it does come from, you know, just the thing of sitting back and letting the world happen to you does, it is the school system and it is consumption of mass media. I've noticed that the people that you get most pushback from are the people that have probably the biggest consumption of media.

So, you know, I've relatives who, their daily routine is get the newspaper, read the newspaper.

That's all their daytime activity in the evening, every single day, sit down and watch the news. And they'll disagree that their opinions are formed by the media they consume, but I don't see how they can't be.

I really consume so little mass media now. It's when actually I see the news, I'm just like, this is insane, the way it's produced, the music, the presentation style. It's all about communicating what you should be scared of and what you should think.

I don't see how you can have any of the view, unless you're just so accustomed to it. You don't see that. - Are we the brainwashed ones though? - That is one week. - Because we consume alternative media all day long.

Like how much time do we spend on Twitter and like how much Bitcoin content do we consume? Like, I suppose that is the pushback from them. It's like, if we say, oh, you've seen that on the media and you don't really understand it, you just watched it on the news and now you're just regurgitating a load of bullshit.

And then they're like, oh, where'd you get your information from? - The internet. (both laughing) - A place where there is no knowledge and there is no truth at all. - Exactly, the internet.

But I kind of can see from their perspective, they're like, because they come, I'm talking quite generally here, but most the people who watch the news and do all that sort of stuff are from like the previous generation.

And so it's like my parents age group and older. And so they see it as like, the media is like the truth. They're the people, they're the qualified people who speak to other qualified people about things that only they can understand.

And then if you want truth, that's where you go for it. And nothing else matters because they obviously know like they're the people, they are the ones, they are the people who tell you. And so I think over years of conditioning like that, it just becomes the norm and you can't accept anything else.

You can't accept anything other in the same way that like, if someone, if I turn on the news, well, I never turn on the news, if I go into a room and the news is on, it doesn't actually matter what's being said.

If I'm honest with myself, I immediately just go, well, it's absolutely fucking bullshit. And I'm not actually, I'm not actually really thinking critically or like fact checking against what they're saying or like digging up other articles and like really trying to like break down what's being said for most things.

I'm just literally going, well, they're saying it, so it must be a lie. So it's the complete opposite. - I think, yeah, you have to be, well, yeah. So let's talk about people of the previous generation.

The systems worked for them, in the UK for a large proportion of the Boomer generation. They've done quite well from the status quo as is. - So you can sort of understand why their trust in government and media is there.

Is our generation just been screwed by the systems? Is this why we're more skeptical? I don't know, or are we just in an echo chamber and should we just turn on BBC news and believe everything we're told?

It'd be an easy life, wouldn't it? I often think it'd be so nice just to not question anything and just go along with it. - It would, it's really stressful and tiring and fact checking the things that we have to fact check.

Like when I'm talking about not fact checking things, it's like just general bullshit that's on the news. Like I have my specific niches and areas of things that interest me. But like you said, yes, the previous generations did really, really well out of the system.

Anyone who's had assets, inflation's been fantastic. And I put myself in that group as well 'cause property was my previous business and, you know, so it worked for me. And they had a very different system where, you know, you could just have one person working in a household and things were easier.

Things were less stressful. You weren't working all the time and you could save. And, you know, it just was a very different world. And so yes, I can see that. But I actually don't think it's just that generation.

I'm definitely in the minority of people my age group. People in my age group will go along with all this stuff. Like I'm definitely the outcast. And it seems almost, almost as if the younger generations now are more brainwashed than the generations before them.

And it seems as though it's sort of done slightly differently though. It's not that they necessarily trust governments. But it's like a kind of virtue signaling, kind of do good degree. I don't really, I can't really wrap my head around it, but you know what I mean?

There's like a... - Yeah, I know what you mean. I understand sort of the point you're coming from. So yeah, I don't really have that experience because the group of friends that I have there in my age have got a similar background to me.

So, you know, punk rock skiing, that sort of thing. And just being anti-social really. So, but even from some of them, you do see some of it on social media, but there's a lot of signaling.

But is it real or it, I don't know. Yeah, people put out, right? What the, you don't get a real understanding of what people like from social media at all. It's too easy to sit there and shout at someone and say, "You should be doing this.

"This is what I think." I think so often you find that people that are like that are nothing like that in real life. - Hiding behind a keyboard. - Yeah, just standard keyboard warriors, but it's so mainstream now, isn't it?

But we're moving into this digital world. So, you see, when I was growing up with the internet, you'd have your real life friends, and then you'd have your internet friends. And that was the way it was then, but I think that line's really been, it really is blurred now for people growing up now.

I think it's just friends, isn't it? There is no separation of digital and reality. It's just one. I think in DC, you know, when you see a group of kids that say in the late teens, at a pizza restaurant or whatever, they all will be chatting, but they all have the phones out at the same time

and interacting with people on social media platforms. So I think there is a real blurring of digital and real life. - Yeah, I feel very old when I see things like that, because in my head, I'm like, bloody ridiculous younger generation.

That's disgusting, fucks sake. Just enjoy the moment in front of you. And then I just think, am I just an old grumpy bastard? Because that's exactly the sort of thing that like my grandparents would have said about like me having a Game Boy or something, like do you know what I mean?

Like, why aren't you playing with a stick outside? (laughing) And so I do wonder like, is that just me being grumpy or like, is it actually dangerous? Because there is something nice, you know, when we were away in the camping trip and I was interacting with people, people that I want to interact with, talking about interesting subjects,

not just fucking nonsense, but sat with a view in conversation or sat under the stars and just being in nature, I think there's something really special about that and something that really grounds us.

And it sort of reminds us that we are human beings, that we are part of nature. And I do sometimes wonder, well, is all this con, and also just taking a step back, just breathing. You know, when I was away there, there was a bit where I just sat in a chair and just looked out to see and I just sat and breathed

and just enjoyed the scenery for like half an hour and I was thinking, when was the last time I did that? When was the last time I didn't pull out my phone and checking something else and reading something and it's like constant interaction, constant bombardment of information.

And it's like, do I think we need a little bit more rest in our brains and maybe not having any time for rest or thought or to reflect on what we're doing, which it kind of seems like some of these people constantly on their phones are doing, then it's like, well, then maybe there is no room

for original thought and maybe there is no time to question. - Yeah, you need that time, don't you, boredom is good. That's when you get the deep thought. That's when you, so I mean, how often are you in the shower in the morning and you just something, an amazing thing will come to you.

And that's because you have no external stimulus. I can't see the constant input with no time for reflection is really that good. You know, it's why things like meditation are so good for you.

It just gives your brain a chance to relax and rest and just meditate on things. - Do you meditate? - Not as much so I used to. I need to get back into it. But it gives you an understanding of how your brain works.

It's very strange. I think so many people have this perception of meditation just being sort of sitting there with your legs across the lowest position and this sort of thing. But it's really not, it's just giving your brain some peace and understanding how your thought processes work and just being able to observe your thought processes.

So you go from being very reactive to everything to just saying, okay, you know, in your everyday life. Okay, I can acknowledge that thought and I don't have to act on it immediately. - It's really good for you.

- I've tried it a bit. I was quite good for, you know, a month or two, doing it every day, not for long, five minutes, 10 minutes maximum. And yeah, there's definitely a lot of good but it's amazing how hard it is to get back into that routine.

It's amazing how hard it is just to say, well, it's only 10 minutes. It's like, yeah, I know, but I just haven't got time but you need to make a million excuses. - It's like, it's an exercise of a different type, isn't it?

You'll make those excuses for physical exercise and I think it's quite easy to make the same excuses for mental exercise. - Yeah. - Yeah, it is only 10 minutes. And it just seems so, when you first get into it, so many people think, I can't sit here and think of nothing, it just doesn't work.

But, you know, you managed to think of nothing for five seconds and you slowly get into it. It's practice, isn't it? Like anything, if you're going to go to the gym to lift weights, you wouldn't be benching 200 pounds when you first go.

- Whatever, probably. (laughing) - But yeah, no, I think it's right. And, you know, I had a talk with Princey about this a while ago, we did on a Meastadale conversation about education and we were saying like, you know, obviously, why isn't the finance stuff torn?

I think we know because people would realize but things like meditation and breath, that's something that in other cultures is taught from like almost day one. It's like, what's the first thing?

What's the most important thing we have to do? Take breath. Okay, well, we should fucking learn how to do that right then, shouldn't we? But you never do. You never learn as a kid. Like we never learn about meditation.

We never thought about like introspective thinking or like how you breathe or any of the sort of things that you really, really need like at the core of any person, like that's the most important thing.

And so I kind of, what makes me interested about this whole Bitcoin movement and like I said, I have become a little tired of the finance side of it. I have become a bit like, oh, just yeah, whatever.

But the things that spin off from it, like, you know, having a strong family, being at this like seven generation thinking, this idea of homeschooling or not even necessarily homeschooling but just like a different way of teaching and getting back to nature and permaculture and like meditation and all these sort of things

which is really shunned and like mocked and people think that it's like a bit woo woo or not important. They're sort of making a resurgence and that I think is really exciting because that's like now, that's a counterculture.

That is like, yeah, it's just, it's so different but it seems so obvious. Like all of these sort of things seem so obvious. And I do question on like, was all of this hidden? Like, was this the reason as well that like psychedelics and things like that have all been not allowed because it does allow for introspective thinking.

It does allow people to take a step back and like, was it that that fucks with their plans? I know that's really like tin full hat but it does make me think that. - Well, I think you'd right.

But I don't think that some people have this opinion that there is a new world order and there's a plan. I really don't think there is. I think there's just a load of people with incentives that make things operate in a certain way.

I think it's all about incentives. So let's go back and talk about the schooling thing and teaching meditation or breath work or those sorts of things that make you a whole person. If you're a teacher and you're being measured based on these standardized tests, I don't think there's any standardized tests

in how to meditate. So there's no incentive to teach your pupils those sorts of things. You know what I mean? I think that runs through the whole system. So the incentives are geared in a way that produces people that all operate in a similar way and they don't have this ability to think critically.

You can't really, well, you can test critical thinking. It's a bit more difficult. I think people have just measured on these things that are easy to standardize tests for. People just get pitch and hold into this way of living.

And you come out of school, you, whatever, 95% of people do this, they come out of school, go to university or get a job, get married, have kids, buy a house, buy a car, saddle yourself up with debt.

And then what choice do you have but to just to slave away, to pay off those debts and the majority of people don't have the ability to step outside of the system, do they? Imagine, like, this is a common ad from someone when my wife and I bought our first house.

We bought quite a small house for the size of mortgage we could have got. And this person came in, oh, it's a matchbox. You should have got the biggest mortgage you can afford. And my whole way of thinking financially at that point was to have as little debt as possible to give as much freedom as possible.

But I don't think that's the main opinion, the opinion that most people hold in our society. If your media consumption is at all about you are what you can show to the world that you have, you're incentivized, again, incentivized to have the biggest house, the shiniest car, the kids off to clubs all the time.

So you can tell your mates that they're doing that. Getting in loads of debt to buy the most expensive clothes so you can show people how successful you are. And all you really doing is going to debt.

And then you're stuck, aren't you? You have no choices because you have to work to pay off this debt. - You put yourself in the cage. - Yeah, yeah, you do. - Yeah, it is true. And I guess this is what it's all about is allowing people to get themselves out of this cage.

'Cause I suppose it depends when you work it out and how successful you've been prior. Like if you, even now, if you go, oh fuck, I've put myself in a cage, that wasn't smart. That, all this other stuff, you know, all the clothes and the school clubs and whatever, that doesn't really matter, it doesn't matter what car I drive.

I just wanna spend time with my family. Okay, you've worked it out. How'd you get out of it? Oh, well, I still need to earn X amount to pay the mortgage so my house doesn't get taken from me and my family need to have a roof over the head and I need to feed them.

So can I stop work? No. Can my wife stop work? No. Right, so what do I do? And I think maybe that's where Bitcoin steps in for some people in that situation, which is like, well, there's a little glimmer of hope here.

Like maybe I can save a little bit and maybe this thing allows me a bit of financial freedom where, okay, it goes up a bit. Maybe I can do a little bit less work. Maybe I can actually focus on a project that I've had in the back of my head and something that I can work on with the time I now have and maybe it helps people in that way.

That would be nice, but I think what's more often happens is it's the people who, or certainly for now, it's the people who have a bit of time. You know, it's the people who like you work for yourself.

I just had a complete through a fucking wobbly and I suddenly had some time. So you allow yourself the time to actually dig into this. It does seem it's the people who are currently time rich who can dig into it.

And then because they've dug into it and they understand it, they're like, oh, okay, well, I'm going to invest some money. And then over time, they've become more wealthy and they have more time.

When does it become obvious to the average person? You need to be investing in this thing to allow yourself more time. And how does that get to them? Because it still feels like it doesn't.

I don't know if it ever will. I don't know if it ever will. I think for the majority of people, we'll just get to the point where they've not bought any Bitcoin and they get paid in Bitcoin.

And that's it. They now go to work to earn Bitcoin. And they're still in a similar situation, I suppose what's different is that it's deflationary currency. So the purchasing power should increase over time.

It solves some problems there, but I don't know, I don't think majority of people will come to it like that. They'll just come to it when they're forced into it. Yeah, it's a shame. Yeah, I mean, it is a piece of a puzzle for a lot of people.

So my wife and I are sort of having these discussions at the moment about, you know, our kids are in school. With everything that's gone on over the last year and a half, it's just, is the current school system the right approach?

For our kids and I don't, I really don't think it is. So, you know, having listened to Daniel Prince on I think he's on safety in a moose's podcast recently. Everything he said there just makes so much sense.

There's things that we could do, you know, down scale, move to a different location, be more self-sufficient homeschool our kids and not in the way of opting out and just like moving to a commune somewhere but just approaching life differently.

And for us, you know, over the next five, 10 years, Bitcoin could be the missing part of that puzzle that lets us do that. Is your wife orange peeled? Yes, she is now. I think it's amazing, really.

I'm very lucky and I'm sure she's probably going to listen to this. Yeah, I'm very fortunate to have another half who's as understanding of my idiosyncrasies as she is. But also that just lets me crack on with things.

I think for years and years, I was sort of just banging on about Bitcoin. She never told me to shut up about it. She always sort of seemed interested and I was like, you know, I should take, we should take some of this money from our savings and buy some Bitcoin with it.

It might be worth something one day. She'll, oh, yeah, yeah, if that's what you want to do. But I think with this, with this recent bull room, she's, she's seen things starting to come to pass.

And so, yeah, she's she's on board now. That's amazing. That's so nice to have a partner who is on the same wavelength. And it doesn't even need to be just like about Bitcoin, but like just generally is really important.

I can't imagine what it would be like if you sort of go down the rabbit hole and you sort of have the ideas that we're talking about, about freedom and not trusting the system and wanting change and then you have someone who you sit next to and turns on the news and says to you, right,

when can we go and get our 15th shot of this thing, this booster? You know, we need to go and do it now, you know? And he'd be thinking, oh, fuck. Because you might, you might love that person deeply.

And then you start to see that as the world is changing faster and faster, and as your opinions are changing faster and faster, like how do you make this work? Because it's really difficult to deal with people who are so on the other scale.

So to have someone who is on the same page and can see the things you see, I think is just amazing. Like you can't ask for more than that. Because at the end of the day, like when you're in a relationship, you're building a world, you're building a future together.

And it's hard if you're coming at life from different values and views. It's very hard. Yeah, I know people that make it work. I don't know if you're that opposed in your views of the world.

I can't see how it would work long term. But imagine this, imagine you've been wanting to buy Bitcoin in a serious way for, I don't know, say seven, eight years. And you couldn't get buying from your partner and she was like, he or she was just like, no, you're not spending our money on that.

You're not spending your money on that. And you always had massive conviction in it. Imagine, imagine how you'd feel now. The resentment, I think it would be hard not to be like, if I can tell you, yeah, it'd be so difficult.

But then, equally, I kind of feel in relationships, if you can't do what you want to some degree, like if you're saying, come invest, come invest, come invest, no, no, no, no. There's already something wrong.

You know, like with me and my mrs., I was like, I'm going to invest in this thing. She was like, oh, whatever, I trust you to do what you're doing. I'm not going to go and bet the farm on it at the beginning.

I'm not going to be like, I'm going to put our lives in danger. But, you know, I'm going to go and invest some because I think it's good. I feel with any relationship, you've got to have some separation in some parts of life where people can just do the things they want to do.

Because otherwise, you will have that resentment. It's like you're one, but you're also still individuals. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you definitely do, definitely do. But I think things change when you've got a family a little.

Of course, you then have a shared responsibility. If you just, yeah, things do change in that way. Yeah, especially with the finances. I suppose it's like, but you can do it on such a granular level that you can invest Bitcoin like the smallest amounts.

Yeah, you don't have to yolo your house into it, which is what we're sort of like, yeah, we'll sell our house and just buy Bitcoin. And I think I've said this to you when we were away. I'm pretty away.

We're pretty heavily invested in it. I think if we didn't have kids, we wouldn't have a house. Yeah, we wouldn't own a house. It would be Bitcoin instead. Well, that's the downside of it, right?

You can't live in it. Yeah, that's true. You can't live in Bitcoin. But yeah, I mean, it makes sense, right? It makes sense to have a home because you have to have some other options, like because we could be wrong.

And when you've got a family, you have to have a roof over their head. Like, I yolo'd my house, but then we've got a dog. Like, you know what I mean? Like, we don't have children. And it's like, it is just a completely different thing.

And I don't think you'd probably sleep so well at night if you did just go to the house. And if it, well, I mean, it would be, I suppose it would be fine if you know that, okay, well, I'm secure enough with my earnings that, you know, we can get it back.

We, you know, we're still young. We can still get it back. I suppose that's the difference. And in many ways, like looking at the market is pretty toppy. And, you know, people always say, oh, rental is such a terrible thing.

But I don't know, really. I mean, rental is not such a terrible thing. If you have the hardest money on the planet, I suppose. Yeah. I mean, we've rented in the past, but again, when you got kids starting to go to school, being at the, excuse me, being at the whims of the landlord, it's kind of a bit shit.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you don't have that security. No, no, no, no. I don't know. Should we talk 3D printing? Yes. Let's talk 3D printing. So I saw you've got your website up. Can you just remind me what it's called and do a quick chill?

It's anchorhoddle.com. Anchorhoddle.com. Yeah. Really, really cool. It's nice. I mean, obviously now I know that you work on websites as a career. It becomes a bit more obvious, but I looked on there, I was like, fuck in hell, that looks nice.

That looks really nice. I think I threw it up in about half an hour. Seriously? It's a pretty straightforward thing, but it's what I've been meant to do for ages really. It's another little tinkering project, isn't it?

When you work on digital stuff so much, which is pretty much what you do when you produce in software, having something tangible you can hold in your hand is, well, it doesn't really exist and that's something that used to bother me.

The 3D printing is great. You can work on something digital and you can make it into a physical thing you can hold in your hands. That's what I found fascinating about it. Well, you've got some really nice bits on there.

That capsule, particularly, I thought was interesting. I'd definitely like to get my hands on one of those. Oh, yeah. I'll pop some over to you. Yeah, so this is, it was all born of, you know, I basically had everything in a single hardware wallet and I was like, this is, it's starting to feel a bit scary.

So something needs to be done and I couldn't figure out that multi-six seemed a bit scary to me at the time. I didn't really know what I was doing with it. It's a lot of things are a lot easier, you know.

So I started doing weird things with seed phrases that are not advisable. So, you know, 24C, a 24-word seed trading split into 12 words and it's still pretty secure doing that. It's exactly what I do.

Everyone says it's, can we just talk quickly through this, right? Because everyone says never split a seed. Yeah. And that's the general consensus and I keep telling people that's what I have done.

And everyone's like, like a Tom was like, oh, don't do that. It's terrible. And sending me an address onto an Oculus video of him saying how stupid it is. Why is it actually stupid? Like I think watch the videos.

So my understanding is it's not so much the security of someone getting hold of half of the seed phrase that's the issue, it's more just being an idiot and losing half of it or yeah, just something going wrong there.

You're basically adding complexity to something that doesn't need to be complex. I suppose, yeah, I see that. I see that. But what everyone says is like, oh, well, if they found your, if they found your 12 words, then it's not that hard for them to be able to, with those 12 words, get the 24.

Yeah. I think we're 12. It's still pretty secure. You get 12 words. Seed phrases. Yeah. But so that's the point. It's like, okay, well, if they find the 12, then with enough computing power, they could get the 24.

And it's like, right, but it's still better than them finding the 24, isn't it? Because you're saying that if they found the 12 and they worked really hard, then they'd possibly be able to get the 24 and I've still got a seed phrase.

So I don't understand the, and yes, it's extra complexity. I get it, but it's like three locations rather than two. And everyone's talking about, oh, well, you know, we want to get to this multi-six standard where you have like three of five or whatever, it's like, well, so what's the difference?

And so I still haven't found anyone, no matter how many videos I get sent saying it, I still think it's more secure. So if you've gone away from that, do you think that that's... I played with that idea for, implemented it for a few weeks, and I was just like, I don't like this.

I want to know from someone who knows what they're talking about, whether it is, yeah, obviously it's more secure having to guess 24 words than it is just to guess 12, right? But what's the difficulty difference?

I think that from what I understand, guessing the remaining 12 is still something that's not really possible at the moment. Okay. Yeah, I mean, multi-sig is straightforward, respect to wallet is brilliant.

I don't know if you played at all with multi-sig. I haven't. I've been a bit scared off of it, to be honest, because some people that I speak to her way more technical than I am, people like Bitcoin, Q&A and others, they've done it, they've run it and they're like, I don't use it, I don't feel comfortable.

And I'm like, well, if you don't feel comfortable and you actually know what you're doing, then I'm certainly going to fuck this up. So it's kind of put me off. I love the idea. I love the idea.

I think it's brilliant. I'm sure that it is the best way forward, but I don't know, I'm just, I guess I'm a bit comfortable with my current setup. I just feel like I feel like I understand it and I'd be getting into territory where I'd not sleep as well at night, right now.

Yeah, it may, it's just understanding that you need to just spend some time on it. And it's like all these things, you don't have to dive straight in, you don't have to dive in and put everything you have into a multi-sig setup.

I think that's probably a bad idea. But yeah, you know, like, like most people they come and they buy some Bitcoin on Coinbase and then they leave it on Coinbase and after a bit of time, they're like, okay, I should go and move it onto hardware wallet, they do that.

And then after a bit of time might be, okay, well, I need to secure my seed phrases, so I'll do that. And it's just, you know, maybe the next step after that is getting things into multi-sig.

But when you set up a multi-sig, I think Spectre is incredible there. It's basically a guided step-by-step process to getting a multi-sig setup. And as part of that, you get one of the outputs from that is like a printable document that has everything you need to restore this multi-sig wallet that you set up.

Right. I mean, the way I did it and became comfortable with it was I went through the process, set up, sent a few starts to it, deleted everything and restored it. Where from backups is massive.

If you've got the backups, then I don't really see how anything can go wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Like I say, in theory, it makes sense. And so you're saying about this printable document. So obviously you've got like, on your website, you've got your seed bins.

And so from what I'm looking at there, you've sort of done the bolts and all that kind of stuff, which is what I've got. And then you're putting each word onto each one of those. How does that work if it's multi-sig?

So there's this little part, right? And if you look at it, you'll see this little tab with a little hole in it and then some tamper-proof seals that go through it with a multi-sig wallet.

And this is what I do. You don't really want to store all of your signing devices in the same location. So I have mine geographically separated by a distance. It's all like a day's worth of effort to go in and print those all together.

But you're putting those hardware devices, which, you know, they're likely to have a pass phrase on them so people can't really fiddle with those unless they know what they're doing. But you should be storing your seed phrases along with those.

Let's say there's, I don't know, one of the devices becomes corrupted. You want to be able to restore that signing device from the seed phrase. So having the seed phrase along with that device is something you really need to do.

Now, although you may be putting these signing devices in trusted locations, you don't know how trustworthy the people are. So although they're unlikely to be able to access your hardware device, they could still access your seed phrase.

So really my thinking behind this was you're putting your seed phrase onto these, stamped onto these washes in this little pot with a tamper proof seal with a unique number on it. So then you know really when you go and check on this thing, which you should be, well,

which I do every couple of months, you know, whether someone's been peeking at your seed phrase and they shouldn't have been. So you know, let's say they go and they open up your pot and they check out your seed phrase.

Okay, they've got one of your seed phrases there, but they don't know where the other two are. Right. So, I mean, it's just another layer of security for me that made me feel a bit happier about putting my seed phrases in locations outside my control.

And so you basically, you screw this bin together and then these tags thread through. And so to open it, they have to snap or cut through the tag. And then obviously you would know, right, someone's been in there.

So how does it lock? Like that threads through, well, anyone listening to this who has access to the website, anchor hodl.com and then go on the seed bin so you know what we're looking at, but how does that actually lock?

So they can't just like pull it through again. Also, so it's a screw top, which when screwed down the, well, eyelets are super close together. When you thread the seal through it, it pulls tight all the way, so there's no way you can unscrew the lid.

And it's a one way, these little anti-tampa seals have a one way device on them that stop you from being able to undo it, so you can only open it up by cutting that device. Okay. That was my question.

I just wondered if it was just a hole and it threaded through it, I was like, oh, then someone could just pull it back, so if you can't do that and you just have to cut it, and then you just go and check it and you make sure, well, no one's cut it.

Yeah, and the number on that seal is the same one that you put on there because they're unique numbers, and you don't leave any other seals there, you just make a note of the number on the seal when you leave it, and if it's the same one, then no one's been tampering with it.

It's just a bit of a solution that I put together myself and I was like, this might be useful for other people. I'm not expecting to pay my mortgage off this. Well, it's about giving back and allowing people to improve their security, isn't it?

It's a fun thing to do, and we talked earlier about providing something to society. I'm sure the same with this. If you sell a few of these and people are like, ah, do you know what, I'm sleeping better at night now that I've got this, you're going to be like, that's fucking cool.

I made that. Yeah, sleeping well at night is a big thing, and that's one of the things that when I had everything on a single hardware wallet, I was starting to not sleep very well. Quite bad.

Yeah, and I realized I used to do something about it, so yeah, and I've got that on there and I've got some stuff for seed signer, so for anyone who's not aware of seed signer, which I expect most people listening to your podcast will be, it's a pretty awesome DIY hardware wallet project that's been going on for a while now.

Yeah, it's phenomenal. Go on Max, she'll seed signer to everyone. I'm actually going to drop an episode in about two days that I've done for 21 ism, so I'm going to let that shill it, and he's been on here before talking about it.

But yeah, I mean, I guess in short, it is a project that creates hardware wallets that you build yourself, and they're very, very fucking cool. And you get all the parts from places that aren't actually going to be sort of trackable and traceable and obvious that you're building one of these things.

So it's quite stealth, which is the thing that I really like. And then obviously, yeah, 3D printer case or either do it yourself or go somewhere like Anka Hoddle and do it, and you build it yourself, it's, I don't know, I kind of feel like this is the way that things are going to go forward, or I kind of hope that they do is that people

have these DIY options, especially for countries where it would be very, very dangerous to be sending out like, you know, a ledger or a cold card or something where it's like, oh, well, this is, you know, this is hardware wallet.

To be able to build it yourself and no one know that you've built it is really, really powerful. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's an amazing educational tool as well, because so it's an air gap device.

And I think it sort of the intention is to, you can't use it as a single signing device. So sorry, it was a single hardware wallet that you just have like, you know, like you, let's say you had a ledger Nano X with everything on it, you can use it in the same way as that.

But it comes into its own with, with multi-sig, because you can store your seeds in different geographical locations and they can be seeds just stamped onto washers in a safe, I don't know, Scotland somewhere, and you can take a single seed signer to each of those locations to sign a transaction.

But when you're actually using it with something like Sparrow, that's when you really see, when you start to understand how Bitcoin transactions are constructed. So you're scanning in information from Sparrow and then you're scanning information back from the seed signer into Sparrow and it just starts to make a bit more sense how things

are happening. Yeah, it's a brilliant project. So, you know, having a 3D printer, I saw if I was like, okay, I've built the thing now. I get a 3D printed case together. So I've put them up for sale on the site.

But you know, from each one that's being sold, I'm donating 20,000 Sats to the seed signer project as well. But originally I messaged the fella running seed signer and I was like, okay, I'm going to sell these here at this price.

Are you okay with that? And he was like, yeah, okay, but you may be sort of low-balling it a bit. So the price is more than it was originally on for, but with a reasonable donation to seed signer for that.

That's really cool because these are the sort of projects we really want to allow to keep going. I think it's fucking incredible. I mean, it's why we featured them for 21-ism and we really want to promote them.

And yeah, it just allows people access for, well, like we said, in countries where you maybe it'd be dangerous not to, but also it's, you know, you can build one of these for not a lot of money and you get the experience from doing it.

So yeah, there's a lot to be said for them. I think they're really cool. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And I've also modified the case a little. I think the parts that we get in the UK are slightly different.

So the LCD hat doesn't properly fit into the Raspberry Pi board or a few people have had the same problem. So I modified the case when people have been buying these on the site, I've been sending out the sort of the original case from the seed signer project, but also modified one that seems to fit a little better.

Yeah, I mean, the whole thing to get the parts for is amazingly cheap for what it actually does as an air-gapped hardware wallet, you know, it's great. Just take your time when you're out of the parts and don't do ideas.

I think I've probably spent about 100 quid getting the parts together because I was just like, buy that, buy that, buy that, I just fucked it up so many times getting the wrong bits. So I'd be less sugar happy.

What should it cost if you don't fuck it up, like $50? Yeah, I think that's sort of the cost, if you might just get yourself a cheap Raspberry Pi Zero, there should be about five quid, the hotspot 15, the camera's probably tenor.

Yeah, so that's sort of the range talking. Cool. And any other projects that you're looking to add on here, you know, obviously you've got the seed signer, you've got the seed bin, and you've got this sat slice, which that looks really cool as well, actually.

So obviously you can choose the hardware wallet, you can choose the color, and then you know that someone hasn't actually been fucking around and trying to do anything with your hardware wallet, which is something that I've thought about a lot.

And so at the moment, I've bought just a load of fireproof safes, like, but they're bulky, like suitcase sort of things. And so I'm using those when it'll actually, I don't really need that, something like this would be much, much better.

Yeah, it's just peace of mind for me, and other people find it useful, and hopefully that's good. I mean, I also ordered a new printer over the last couple of days. My wife is just going to find out about this, but so currently everything here is printed

with an FDM printer, which is sort of, I don't know, if you look on some of the images, you'll see it lays up these prints in layers by melting, by extruding some filament, so you get this, you can see the layers, but an epoxy printer works in a slightly different way.

It builds up much thinner layers, sort of like a tenth of the size of layers of an FDM printer, so you get much higher resolution. So I've got some plans for some interesting stuff there, but that's to be confirmed yet.

Cool. And this is something that you've been playing with for some time, 3D printing, or is it fairly new? Yeah, it's sort of six months to a year, I'd say, just fiddling around. It's all tinkering, isn't it, Max?

It is all tinkering. It looks like a lot of fun as well, it's something I'd love to do. I think the idea of being able to just build something, create something like parts for things, or like the things that you've got on there, you often have these ideas and then

it's like, well, I can't get this manufactured because I'd have to create a massive number of them to bring the cost down enough, and then I'd have to sell the rest, blah, blah, blah. It's like, well, if you want something and you actually learn how to do this, well, you

can make it, and that's amazing, that just strips out all that layer of complexity and having to find someone to make it for you and all of that stress, and I just think there's something really nice about having one of these in your house.

So I imagine that, you know, maybe 10 years from now, everyone will have one of these in their house. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if the prints, see, when I first got this, I was like, okay, if my vacuum cleaner breaks, I can get in there and print a new part out for it, but you're probably not going to do that at the moment.

Sitting down with a bit of CAD software, you might spend three hours of getting something at works, and unless that part's worth three hours of your time, I don't know, but if plans for things start to become more available, then it'd be nice to see it.

I'll send some of these bits and bobs down to you, Max, if we'll figure that out. Yeah, that'd be great. That'd be great. I can have a play. All right, mate, well, thank you for coming on the show, and it's been nice to have a proper chat with you and a catch up.

Yeah, thanks for having me on. Hopefully there's been something, it's not been too much just useless wittering. No, it's mainly me, actually. I've fucking just blabbing on about all sorts.

It was just a chance for me to catch up and have a chat with you. So it's me wittering on, but it's been really good. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah, it has been good. It has been good. And hopefully, well, meeting personnel, I was talking about getting down to one of these Bristol meetups that self-banks running.

Yeah, let's definitely do that. And if you can bring some bits down as well, that'd be brilliant, save posting and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, that'd be great. Let's do that. When are you thinking next couple of months?

Yeah, this month or next? Also, it's September, October. Yeah. All right, mate. Well, yeah, nice to speak to you. I'll see you then. And I look forward to that drink. All right. Cause stuff.