Pavel Ševčík brings freedom to fuckwits

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows the Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and deliver to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back, everyone. Today's guest is Pavel Shevchik. I hope I have pronounced that correctly. I really, really enjoyed this one. He is a proper Bitcoiner. He's been working with Ronan Dojo working on their new UI.

So any users will know that this is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was. And he's hinted that there is something new coming as well. So I'm really excited to see that. Thoroughly enjoyed the conversation.

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Enjoy the show. Aval, how are you? Can you hear me now? All right, yeah, I can hear you. Nice to speak to you, mate. Thanks for joining me. Thank you for having me. Yeah, well, we've been lurking in some of the same telegram groups for some time.

A lot of the privacy stuff. Yeah, it seems that we're in a lot of the same groups. I thought it would be cool to reach out and have a chat with you. Yeah, I noticed that you're a fan of privacy.

Yeah, I'm doing my best. I'm slowly but surely getting better. Yeah, I mean, just the more I get into it, the more I care about it. And I'm definitely not as far down the rabbit hole or have as much knowledge as most of the other people in the same groups.

But yeah, I'm doing my best. So this is clearly something that is a huge passion of yours and something that you care about deeply. So is that always been the case or is it just since Bitcoin?

Oh, yeah. I think it's since Bitcoin. I started, I mean, I noticed Bitcoin like around 2012 or 13, I think. So I was not around at all at the start. And I was not around and I was very young at that time when it was

like a real cyberpunk movement and crypto and so on. But I stumbled upon Bitcoin. I think it was in 2015, maybe 2014, something around that time. When I moved to one of the districts in Prague, in Czech Republic,

and there was Paravoli boys, which is a place that hosts Institute of Crypto Anarchy, Bitcoin Coffee, a hacker space. And there's an annual venue, HCPP, or a hacker's Congress, Paravoli boys, which I was there last year.

Oh, cool. I wasn't able to make it. Oh, shame. Yeah. Awesome, though. Yeah. So, yeah, I just started to go there for a coffee. And because the payments there at the time was only taken in Bitcoin and nothing else.

I just printed my first paper wallet and that was my first contact. And then I got absorbed by it over the time I joined the hacker space. I started co-organizing some meetups. I started co-organizing hackers' Congress.

And I even got to be a member of the board at Paravoli police for some time. But I left, like, I think three years ago. So, I moved to work on Bitcoin and work on the community, I guess. So, those early days where you're just using it to literally to buy a coffee,

was it something, like, straight away where you were, like, really interested in how it would work? Or was it a bit of a slow burner for you to get as into it as you are now? I was kind of amazed that, you know, this magic internet money really works.

For me, it was unprecedented. Because I've heard at that time about Bitcoin for two or three years that it exists. And I was like, eh, whatever. And when I came to contact with it, like, for real and used it for several times, I became really amazed that this thing could work as a money.

So, that's where the rabbit hole, like, put me in. And I started to fall down the rabbit hole. And since then, I'm all about what, you know, started to search for more information

about crypto anarchy, hecticism, safer punk movement, and Austrian school of economy. So, it changed my life, totally. Yeah, it has a habit of doing that, doesn't it? It sucks people in and you don't come out again.

It's just so fascinating. And so, you were a programmer before Bitcoin, or was it something you've got into after finding it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was a, and still I'm a web developer or application, web developer.

However, you want to call it, like, front-end developer. So, I was, at the time, just, you know, working day-to-day job, like everyone else. And as far as I remember, I've, since when I was started coding at high school, I always had some kind of, like, site project.

I think most developers do have some kind of site project just for fun and to learn new things. But, of course, since I joined the hacker space, there was plenty of stuff to do around, like, Bitcoin,

and trying to, you know, do some hectic things, even, like, either, like, around the house, around the building, like, for example, we made our own RFID walk system for the doors. Okay, well, it's just enlightening.

What's RFID? Is it, like, an automatic locking system or something? No, it was, like, for an NFC scanner and, like, simple microboard that we put in the door. Okay. Because, in Para only, we used NFC cards, like, for Bitcoin payments, like, simple wallets.

Now, we also used the same cards for access to the door. Okay, cool. So, yeah, that was, like, I started, like, doing this crazy little things, site projects, and then, after some years, and learning a lot about Bitcoin in the meantime, I started,

finally, to contribute to some open source projects. So, I started, I contributed a little, just, not much, but some, some commits, or one commit, maybe, only to BTC pay server. I made some commits for Blue Wallet, and then, I made, finally, some contributions to dojo,

with Apple, and this stack around Samurai Wallet. Hmm. Cool. And this is, are you doing, sort of, still front-end stuff? Or, what are you doing when you're working with Blue Wallet and Samurai and Ronan?

Well, for Blue Wallet and BTC pay server, that was front-end stuff. For Whirlpool, that was, as well, and for Ronan, I work at Ronan UI. That's, that's my, like, domain. I'm the, with, I would say, main developer of Ronan UI, but we have other, other friends,

other people working work with, like, Miguel. But, I've also been, not, not so long ago, I've been, uh, brought aboard, uh, Samurai team, uh, to maintain dojo. So, awesome. That's, that's a back-end work, mostly.

So, you're, so you're responsible for this beautiful new Ronan UI, are you? Yeah, I am. Fucking, well done. It's, uh, it's really nice, mate. I had it, I had it working for about a week or two before I broke it, as usual, but it's, um, it's fucking beautiful.

It's such a step up from, uh, what I was used to before, because, you know, my node went down, I got it up and running again, and I suddenly saw this, and I was like, this is leaps and bounds ahead, and, you know, when people talk about, you know, there's all these wars with,

uh, Umbral, and, uh, non, non-fast and all this stuff, and, and people's answer is always like, oh, well, you know, it's easy, and it's, is a good UI. And then I'm like, well, have you seen the new Ronan UI?

Like, this thing is really clean. So, yeah, congratulations, mate. That's, that's really fucking awesome. Well, thank you very much. Um, of course I wouldn't be able to make it, uh, alone, because, uh, it's, uh, the whole team's work, because they're always pushing me, especially Zoko.

Uh, slave driver. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no, the guys, the guys are great, uh, giving great suggestions, uh, guys from our Telegram groups, uh, also, uh, great testing, uh, giving great suggestions.

So, and, uh, to be fair, this is just the beginning, and, uh, when we, when we really saw like Ronan UI 2.0, uh, that's going to blow your mind. Wow. Well, the first one, the first one did.

So I look forward to it being blown again. Yeah, it's cool. It's, it's, what is really nice is that this is now being looked at and people are taking the time because obviously the protocol comes first and, and the privacy comes first.

And obviously the usability has to come next because it's, it's important, but it's not as important as no point in having something that looks beautiful, but it's shit. But the fact that it's now getting to this point where like it looks nice.

It's intuitive. It works. It just means that more and more people can jump on board and be more private because it's, um, it's pretty difficult still. Otherwise, you know, like it puts a lot of people off.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's not easy. You know, as, as you said, privacy usability, you have to, you have to make a lot of compromises sometimes. But with regards to privacy and security, we try not to compromise mostly at all.

Do these things come first for us? But we understand that for, for users to use this, like not for our sake, but for their own, it's got to be usable and somewhat beautiful, I might say. It makes it a joy to use, you know, it makes it less stressful.

And, you know, I think for, for even the majority of people are not developers. And I think deep down, people don't know it yet necessarily, but they do care about their privacy. They just, they just haven't quite worked out how important it is yet.

And I do think there's going to be a bit of a tipping point where the masses finally, or not necessarily the masses, but, but more people in Bitcoin start to realize how fucking stupid it is not to use these tools when they're available.

And so having, you know, the samurai stack the way it's set up and, and then having it more usable is, is good, is good to onboard more people. And, and the way I look at it is like, well, the more people who are there, the bigger crowd you're hiding in, and the more it fucks with the heuristics, that these chain surveillance

companies are using, and it's good for everybody. So I think it's, it's really, really important what you're doing. Yeah, thanks. Regarding the KYC, I'm actually very glad that I started, like, looking into Bitcoin, like around that time where, like, there were some, it was after Mt.

Cooks, but before these, like, cash ads and all, all the DCA applications, and before Visa and Paypal even started caring about Bitcoin. So it was easier to avoid KYC trap as a, as a, you know, novice user.

Yeah, because there, there wasn't the option so much I'm guessing. Yeah, and it was still, like, kind of in, in the cypherpunk groups, like 2015, not, not that much already, but it, it was still coming off from, from that cypherpunk vibe.

So KYC exchanges, a lot of people use them, but that wasn't such a big deal. And there wasn't so many regulations from EU banks and so on, so it was, like, super easy to get non-KYC Bitcoin then today.

What is it like back then, where you're dealing with more of the cypherpunk type of mindset and people are in it for more of these privacy reasons and, and anarchist reasons? Yeah, because it's changed a lot and like I see quite a difference, like there's different tribes within Bitcoin.

There is the number go up people who literally, that's all they care about. Then there's the privacy people who that's all they care about and, and quite often there's a little bit of battle.

I kind of sit somewhere in the middle, which is I didn't understand how important privacy was. I made loads and loads of mistakes because I just didn't know any better. And now I'm doing everything I can to fix the stupid shit that I did before and to improve.

But was it, was it just different back then? You didn't really have the sort of number go up group and you just had more of these cypherpunk kind of thinkers. Right. Well, first of all, everyone makes mistakes.

For example, I mixed with Vasabi. Here we go. But anyway, back to the question. I think, you know, it was in some regards, it was easier like to buy on like traditional

exchanges, but without KMC, KYC because there wasn't so hard regulation back then or you could buy in some shops and there are some small services that you were able to buy bitcoins from, which isn't possible as far as I know, mostly across Europe right now.

But on the other hand, today we have BISC, which is decentralized exchange, where you can get non KYC bitcoins. So I'm not really sure, here in Czech public, especially not much has changed, fortunately,

because I can still go to like BTC ATM, which there are tens of them across in Prague and I can buy Bitcoin in ATM for cash and it allows some sum to sum of bitcoins without KYC.

So like that's still possible and at the start, that was the only way I bought Bitcoin. Yeah. And so these ones that you have there now, are they still very, very heavy on the fees or are they more reasonable over there than they are here because in London, for example,

and I'm not saying that it's not worth it for anyone who will jump on my case here, but it's between 8 and 15% above spot price for, yeah, it's very expensive. And so, you know, 8 to 15%, I still think it's worth it, especially if you're wearing a mask and hat and glasses and you're going in the cash and, you know, it's pretty damn

good privacy, but it is expensive and you're trying to explain to normal people who are coming in like, oh, yeah, don't use Coinbase Pro with half a percent spread. Go and use this one, you know, between 8 and 15 and they just go, fuck off, no way, you know.

So is it different over there? What's the spread on these things? I think it's quite, I think it's around the same. I haven't bought, to be fair, I haven't used BTC ATM a long time, like in a year or so.

So maybe that changed. I think it was around maybe 6, 8%, something like that. Okay, that sounds so bad. I don't think it was 15 because we have several crypto exchange operators around here.

So those are like local exchanges, so I think they allow, they can allow to have cheaper like lower spread. Okay, yeah, because otherwise, yeah, it's Bisk. And so I suggest to Bisk to a lot of people and I use it myself and I really like it.

But it's still, in my eyes, it's not as good as an ATM because you're still sharing your banking details with another peer and obviously that other peer could be anyone. You don't know who they are and so that is an issue and then you also have to concern

yourself with like when you're putting money into escrow or putting Bitcoin into escrow you to make sure that those funds have previously been coin joined so that you're not leaking extra information.

There's more to think about and so these cash ATMs are really fucking cool. I wish they were more of them and that the spread wasn't quite so large. Well, yeah, it's still better here and I bet in Britain than in Germany because as far

as I know, these Bitcoin ATMs are those where maybe still are not allowed. So there's actually I think two or three Bitcoin ATMs at the Czech German borders. Okay, people have to cross the border for a bit of freedom.

Yeah, and of course, the best KYC option aside from ATM because as you said, BISC is not anonymous, it's only like private, more private. The best option is either mine or Bitcoin or earn your Bitcoin.

So either sell your work and or sell something, if you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah. I've been on only fans for the last six months, but no one's taken me up on the offer unfortunately. So maybe I can help.

You wouldn't want to trust me. Yeah, no, that's a good point is the the earning and the mining. They're both really good options. And so you've gone down the rabbit hole. You've obviously become obsessed with Bitcoin to the point where you're working in this.

It sounds like full time or are you still you still got other projects used on mining any fiat? No, I'm in it full time, I'm in it full time. Awesome, awesome. And would you describe yourself now as a cypherpunk and if so, like, no, okay, because I've never really known I've never known what it is like, I know the cypherpunk manifesto,

I kind of get the ethos, but like, I don't really know like what who is a cypherpunk like. What is it? What does it mean? Right. I think I've met several cypherpunks thanks to HCPP and Peralini Polis because those those

people who came to the conference to speak there, like Smaglera, Frank Brown, bubble talk, I spoke to him, I interviewed him at the last year's Peralini Polis, really cool. For me, and also other people, but for me, these are like real cypherpunks because they

would die on his on his hill, they would do everything to, you know, protect the cypherpunkitos. And so I think I'm maybe like getting there, but I would not describe myself as a cypherpunk.

Not at all. Cypherpunk Light. Yeah. In my bio on Twitter, I have a cypherpunk Clarpa. I like it, I like it. Well, yeah, it's, I don't know, I mean, I think it's hard not to want to die on this hill, not want to die on this hill, but hard not to die on this hill if it comes down to

it because what's at stake here, as far as I can see and, you know, anyone who listens to the show know I'm fucking useless with technology, but in terms of the ethos, what this can do and what's going on around us, just quite how important the fight that's coming is.

I can't think of anything else on this planet that I would die for. It's, it's so fucking important and, and the sort of the backdrop of everything that we're seeing in the world, scared, it absolutely terrifies me like it scares the shit out of me.

What's going on? And then there's just this group of people who, especially the people who care about privacy, the people who are pushing this thing forward, who I feel like, right, these are my people.

They are people who can make changes and they are such a amazing contrast to the just useless fucks that I see everywhere else and it gives me hope, it gives me like, it gives me excitement in my life thinking, you know what, like, we've got a group of people, we can fucking win this.

Do you feel confident that we win? Man, I, I really don't know, I think if we want to win, we will survive at least. But winning this fight, that's a whole other story because there's so much that the state

can do to suppress you, especially, especially, you know, my country, 32 years ago, was a communist country. So my parents and my grandparents told me because they know how it was here their whole life.

What happened here, and the more I look at what's happening right now, especially last year and a half, because of the coup, I, like, two years ago, I thought that we will soon

have, like, some kind of digital totality which was, of course, the title of, subtitle of the hackers Congress last year, but I thought something like this would maybe be coming, but I haven't at all, like, I wasn't expecting that we would possibly be getting near real

totality, like, you know, especially, you know, I'm an outside outsider, outsider, I look at, you know, new Soviet Internet, and when I see what's happening in Britain, I'm totally shocked.

Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's really fucking scary, you know, I've never been a patriotic person. I've never believed that the state or my country is here to serve me in any real way. Well, I'm not, I'm not as well.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a common theme within Bitcoiners, but, but I always, I always believed that we had more freedom than most, and I always used to say, well, do you know what? It could be a lot worse.

We're very lucky. And, you know, it's not perfect. I wish the government would fuck off, but, you know, it's not all that bad. But like you say, that this has accelerated to the point now where any of my Bitcoin friends who are in England, we're all just saying how, how do we get out of here?

Like, where do we go? What do we do? I've been looking today at Catamaran's because I've been saying, well, you know, what do I do if it all goes fucking Pete Tongue to shit. Yeah, if it all got in it, I think it is going to go into how do I get out of here with that, with these vaccine passports and all that.

So I've been looking at Catamaran's and trying to sort out so I can do a test so I can get the fuck out of here. And, you know, I would not have dreamt that a couple of years ago. I really, really wouldn't.

Do you think that having these conversations with your grandparents about how bad things can get sort of primed you and got you ready for the world we're sort of entering now? Oh, I don't think so.

I'm just, I just think that thanks to the history, I'm more able to see it coming to shit. Yeah. And I don't know, maybe it's just me because when I look around me, like most people don't really care and they want more socialism and more state control.

So yeah, I'm actually dealing a lot with the same questions as you. Like where do I go? Because that's the main problem, like where do I go? Because it's going to shit everywhere. Yeah, there's no, there's no great option yet is there.

I mean, that would make it a lot easier if there was, if there was just like one or two countries where it's like, right, we're for freedom. This is the way we're going. You could then say, okay, well, I'm going to make the leap.

But it kind of feels now where wherever you leap, you've got uncertainty. And then you think, well, at least if I'm in the country that I know, I have people I know, I have some kind of protection or I can hide or I can, you know, it sounds crazy to be having these conversations, but you know, I do think it's going to come to this.

And so I think for a lot of us, it's kind of like, well, I just have to kind of stay here until it gets unbearable and then just make a very fast decision, which isn't ideal. Yeah, no, not ideal at all, but yeah, I've come to the same conclusion, basically, because

like moving right now has no point because who knows what's going to be in like five years? What if you move somewhere and it goes to shit even even more? Yeah. Like these are uncertainties, I guess, that's always going to be there.

But yeah, I think evaluating the pros and cons is really tough. It's one of those things that no matter how many times you have the conversation and I have this conversation with a lot of Bitcoiners about, well, you know, what the fuck do we do?

Where do we go? And it's people all throughout Europe who are having the same, same thought. Am I right in saying where you are, gun ownership is legal or have I made it up? It's legal. Okay.

So you have some element more protection, which is something, I guess. Oh, yeah, like gun ownership is legal, but the use of the gun in defense is very, you know, it's a great area around here at the courts.

So right, it's not like Texas, not nowhere else is, I don't know where else is. Would you consider somewhere like Texas? Maybe, I don't know, a lot of good people moved there, like from California and all around

America, but on the other hand, I don't want to, I still don't know if I would want to live in the US. Yeah. It's a big country and there's a big differences. So yes. Yeah.

Like if it was if it was on with Texas, then I would say yes, but it's it's United States, it's uncertain if I want to live there. Yeah, I keep wondering, you know, with what's going on with El Salvador, or what might happen with El Salvador and what might happen in South America in certain areas.

I keep hoping that maybe a few more countries join and that we had some like crazy shit, like Mexico suddenly say, right, we're going to make Bitcoin legal tender and we're going to sort of compete in terms of, well, we're going to be a bit more of a free nation and

create a sort of a space where people can go because my concern at the moment is a lot of people I'm speaking to are going, Oh, well, I'm just going to go to El Salvador. And I'm thinking, well, how long until either the president isn't who we think he's going

to be and turns really, really bad, or he's assassinated or has a heart attack or is found with something on his computer that he shouldn't have that someone's put there and then the media turns against him and then you get someone else to fill that void of power.

And so it's kind of like, I don't see that as really any more stable, but you know, if you had a couple or three or four countries suddenly say, yeah, okay, we're going to compete, you know, we're going to, we want people who are innovative, we want people

who are going to create some wealth and bring Bitcoin into our country, then things could really change. And then you could start to have these sort of conversations that there would be a bit more realistic.

But I think we're a long way off that. Yeah, I think so as well. But yeah, it looks like these countries in like Central or South America and in Africa are actually going to be the first that's going to like have Bitcoin as a legal tender

or, you know, Bitcoin as a money like regularly. So that's really interesting to me. But yeah, it might take some time. And God knows what the actual laws around that are going to be because, you know, the regulation might require you to use a state enforced custodial wallet.

And so then you're totally like fucked. Yeah, that's actually worse than, well, not worse than Fiat, but it's the same as Fiat. Yeah, it's just as bad. It's just as bad. Yeah, it's, that's the thing with all of these laws, they can change whenever it suits them. And rules and regulations can flip at any

time. It's not like Bitcoin. You don't have a fixed set of rules that are hard to change. And so, yeah, it does make things difficult, you know, and then it's a case of like with anyone who's thinking about privacy and moving across to this Bitcoin standard and storing

their wealth and time in Bitcoin, the next thing comes is like, well, you know, how do you secure this? And how do you make sure that you have access to this, even if you have to flee? Because because my, my thought on it is like, I thought the other day I was

like, well, okay, if I had to fuck off tomorrow, like literally, I had to just pack a bag and leave. I actually wouldn't be able to take my Bitcoin with me because I'm an idiot and I can't remember my past phrases and my 24 words and their split and they're all

over the place in different locations because I'm like ultra, ultra paranoid. So I've made it to a situation where if I have to actually access my Bitcoin, it's like a day's work, like it's I have to contact a load of people and go to a load of places. And you know,

it's just like it's so, it's such a pain in the arse for me to do it. But if I had to leave tomorrow, I wouldn't have access. So how do you think about that? Like, do you have any tips or ideas on like, obviously, obviously the privacy as well, but to actually do it so that you can bring your wealth with you if you have to flee?

Well, first of all, like, I don't have such complicated solution, like that would require me a day or some people might even need a work day if, for example, they give party

receipt to the bank or some, you know, safe place. But I think if I had to free, you know, you usually see these things coming. It's not like one day you're totally fine living your life. And second day you have to free. If you, if you like don't murder anyone and

or don't do shady shit, you shouldn't have to free like from day to day. So I think if it would come to this, like freeing somewhere else and not being able to, you know, because of course, having your seat with you like physically is also an attack vector. Yeah,

they can confiscate it. It's confiscateable at the point. So you don't want to have it with you. So how to do it and not have it with you? Well, it sounds like terrible advice, but there's no solution than like saving it somewhere on the crowd or something, you

know, yeah, weirdly, I was having this conversation, but I won't dox if it was, but I was having this conversation a couple of days ago. And someone was saying, yeah, well, what I do is I have a couple of servers running, which I can access from anywhere. And they have

set separate parts of seed. And like basically I have to access the different ones. And they're in different locations. And so basically wherever you are, you could SSH in, but but it still will split the information. So you don't have it all on one server where it's accessible

and then you. Yeah. And it's encrypted and so on. So as I, you know, you can, you can like make these complicated solutions. You can, you can do like easy solution, just encrypt your seat, put it on Google Drive. It's a terrible solution. And I don't recommend it

to anyone. But basically, yeah, if you would be in rush, until you had to see with you, and you would like, you don't have time to like make up some fucking solution that will work for like another 50 years. If you need to move from day, like from points to points

in two days across the whole world, and you need to do it right now. That's the thing you're going to do. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's not a it's this is trade off, isn't it? It's like accessibility versus privacy and security. And that it doesn't seem there's a perfect

solution other than, you know, a couple of people I know, memorize. Oh, yeah. But to me, I'm like, well, firstly, I'll just forget it. And even if I didn't forget it, what what if you what if you get knocked over the head and then you wake up in the morning and you

can't remember it or, you know, it's and the other thing is then, okay, maybe you can memorize your 12 or 24 words and a passphrase fair enough. But you know, for super paranoid people like me, well, what if you you have five or six different seeds and passphrases

just so that you don't have all your eggs in one basket? Well, you know, I can't think that that's reasonable that you can remember all of that. So maybe maybe there's a middle ground where you have one that you memorize and you have that on say, samurai wallet.

And that's your sort of emergency funds if you need it. And then you have like other cold storage, which I don't know, it's difficult one, isn't it? What do you call storage? Yeah, to have like sort of, you know, maybe maybe you memorize one of them. And then, you know,

you have the others just so like if you did have to flee to say you decided, right, someone's coming to vaccinate me door to door. Anything right? Well, in this case, you've advised that murder is not a good idea, but you shoot them in the fucking face. Okay. And then you go, okay, now what? Right, I need

to flee. So at least then you then you've memorized one. So you have you have enough money to get by, you know, in that emergency and hope that you can at some point get hold of your other seeds or something like that. Oh, yeah. Oh, well, I'm so terrible at remembering

anything that I think the 12 words would be a problem for me. So I'm not I'm not maybe I have 12 works of it. Maybe like would have learned. But if you have several seats and

some of them are 24 words, you're fucked. That doesn't make sense to remember it all. And incorrect order. That's yeah, I wasn't even able to remember my marriage. Like not proposal, but well, whatever. It was a mess. Yeah, I have trouble remembering my name

some days. So yeah, it's yeah, I don't think it's a great idea. But it's good to it's good to like sort of play these things out and to think about these things before we need to, you know, and it's the same with the privacy. And that's something that I push to a lot

of people who I get into Bitcoin. And like right from the start now, I'm like, you need to be worrying about your privacy. You need to be using the tools you need to be using coin join. And the reason the reason I'm pushing so hard is it's like, yeah, you might not

need it today. And maybe they're not coming after you today. And maybe they're not trying to 60 102 us today. But you can be damn sure they are at some point. And you know, it's um, I guess it's why you and and so many others, especially in this samurai community, um,

which is so focused on this is really refreshing to me. Like it's, it's nice to have a group of people who are adversarial thinking, who are looking forward. And you know, not just look, I really care about number go up being honest, like, because it would, it would change

my life. Like it would give me a lot more time to spend with my family and friends. But there's no point in having Bitcoin being worth a load of money if someone seized it. Or you're in a prison cell. So, you know, what's the fucking point then? You know, it's very important

this stuff. And so yeah, it's, it's cool to have people who are thinking about it. Well, yeah, like, you know, that's, that's what's been like easier. Like before the KYC AML shit going away. And all of these things started, because at the start, there was only like

non custodial non KYC services. And it was, it was great. And people, people totally forgot about that. Like, why people? Like the bad thing is that, as I said, we all want to number go up, of course, we do. But the problem is that people are going into Bitcoin because

of this. And that's why they don't care about privacy. They don't care about censorship resistance. And all the things that make Bitcoin, like what it is. So, I think that's, you know,

Coinbase is still so popular. Bitpay, cash app, any other, you know, this STF puts it de facto L2's de facto layer two, because most, most Bitcoin, most Bitcoin movements actually

happen on exchanges. It's not like the off chain. Yeah, it's not on lightning. It's not a little liquid. So, yeah, no, it's absolutely true. How do you think about that then in terms of changing the ethos or not changing the ethos, getting that back and getting people

to realize, because obviously, in the early days, people are drawn to this for specific reasons, like it wasn't number go up at the beginning. It was people who cared about freedom and privacy, and people who maybe wrongly had the assumption that this was private internet

money, and you had the darknet markets, you had a lot of people who were using this tool because they had to. And then it's become speculative. But what is really important with this technology, what makes it so special, as you said, is the privacy aspect, is the

fact that it's unfuck with a bull money, if you use it correctly. How do we get that back? Obviously, you're working on user interface, you're working on making it much cleaner and more accessible. What goes through your head and how are you trying to get more people

to care? That was a time that I cared about the community much more than I do now. I think thanks to the whole NGO narrative, I became maybe a little bit better and I stopped caring.

And what I actually think that maybe what it could bring back to the cypherpunk roots would be, and it's maybe a paradox, but it would be more regulation. Because if it gets

regulated hard enough that people stop using it like the bullshit, I would have to call it something like for the NGO, if they actually banned all the exchanges, Bitcoin wouldn't

stop existing, it would just move back to the cypherpunk roots and exist underground. The people that live for it, we would still use it on day to day basis. It would be fucking

hard for some areas, maybe nearly impossible. But yeah, if that will happen, I think Bitcoin would survive and go back to roots. But otherwise, I think there is no getting back to roots.

And maybe we just have to tell people, tell people, tell people. Don't do this shit. Don't use that product. It sucks. It's KYC. It's shit going. It's custodial and so on. And

we have to build real products that are on par or better than these shit products that are custodial KYC and so on. Yeah, it's not easy. It's not easy and it takes time. But I do think that's kind of what is needed to entice people. And you're always going to

have that core group, the ones who really care about it. But the simple fact is most people do trust their government. Most people do trust these exchanges and organisations that they want to allow other people to take control of their lives, because it's what

they've kind of been trained to do from birth through school. And they're scared and they don't understand. Yeah, but these aren't the exact people that don't need Bitcoin at all. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you're right. It doesn't pay for them. It doesn't have properties

they want from it other than NGO. So. Yeah, the thing is, the way I look at it is trying to get. So there are some, I kind of put people in different buckets. You've got people like you who really care, who are here for a reason, you're trying to improve and make this technology

better and more accessible, because it matters to you. And you see why it needs to be here. And then you have kind of people who, as far as I see it, are like in the middle. So that would be someone, someone like me who came in, like I always kind of hate it. I hated

authority, but I was not into computers. I didn't understand what this thing was. And I came purely for the money, purely for the money. And then over time, we can, with meeting the right people and learning from the right people, we can realize, okay, fuck, no, now

this is this is what's really important about it. And then they switch across. And then you have like the banker total fucking like authoritarian loving cunts for for one of a better word, who are here purely for number go up. They will only ever be here for number go up. And

they will never ever change. And so for me, I think that that middle bucket where they can go either way, it's important that in some way they are nurtured. And you know, even if they come in at the beginning from a no kyc sorry, a kyc exchange and they make that

move just like I did, they do have the opportunity to realize and they do have these tools to at least get forward looking privacy and go, well, okay, I'm not going to do that again. And I'm going to change. And so I do kind of see that we have some hope. And definitely

with with the work that you guys are doing, it makes it way more accessible to people. And so so maybe, maybe with everything that's going on in the world, people are going to start to realize a little bit more. The government is not your friend. They're not here to help

you or hold your hand. Oh, I'm not going to tuck you into bed. They fucking they they want you as a slave and they don't care if you live or die. And I think that more people are waking up to that. Yeah, possibly. I see, I see like a huge divide in society. Like

I'm not an expert in society or I think. But from my point of view, there's like a huge divide. Like there's still more people coming to realize realizing this. Like the state is not going to care for them. Thanks to the goof. It's even more visible now. And on the

other side, there's even more growing like want for socialism and for even like stronger state. And I'm actually I'm wondering because if this is going to go for longer, there's going to be some clash. If it's got to like, you know, boom somewhere.

You seeing it bubbling over there, are you starting to see a clash of these different tribes and different opinions? Like, is it starting to boil over and cause arguments with people around you? Well, not especially around me. I think like when I look over the

internet, especially Twitter, and like if you actually when you're on Twitter, you're mostly in your own bubble. But when you try to go and step out of the bubble and like

look at the other side. Yeah, it's side basically other side discussions and opinions. You see that they're they're totally different. And even even on Facebook, yeah, I'm still on Facebook. Unfortunately. Oh, yeah, shame. I've got one up on you there. That's the one

time that will ever happen where I'm all private than you shit. I think I think you're already more private than me, actually. We can come back to this later. But yeah, I actually in some in some discussion groups on Twitter, I see like this totally different like, like

on even the opinions that's like we have, and you turn them totally around that there are people that have those opinions. And for me, it's like, of course, there's gonna be some of those people, but there are there are tons of them. The majority? I'm not sure

maybe it's the majority, possibly, not really sure. But if you if you look at especially at America, it's kind of it seems to me that's boiling in there with socialism. Yeah, because Antifa, Black Lives Matter, these groups are leftists, basically. And yeah, liberals

and let rep I mean, like classical liberals, not left think liberals, classical liberals and Republicans, and so on have a huge, huge, like problem with them, like both groups do have problems with each other. But in America, what's interesting to me that most of the,

what you would call like entertainment industry is on the side of the leftists and left leftist ideology. Yeah, definitely. So that's actually kind of like foreign to me, because these are not, you know, these are people that should entertain other people and not, you know, do care care

about or at least talk about politics. You can they can not publicly, they should keep it themselves and not put it into movies. It progresses your career at this point. I think is the problem. Yeah, it's cool and trendy to have brain dead, vapid ideas. If you are seen to be on the other side, you are immediately

a racist, sexist, pig. And you know, you get canceled, basically, if you speak truth. And so I think a lot of it is in a lot of it is in their self interest. And then a lot of it is like champagne socialist ideas where like, it's really easy to talk about all these

nice ideas and let's give everyone money and let's cancel the billionaires when you're already a multimillionaire shipping champagne apartment. That's really fucking easy. What they don't see is the people who really need the help who are working two jobs and they get home

midnight and they've got to get up at six o'clock in the morning to catch three buses on a train and they're barely getting by. And they're really the cause of a lot of this stuff. And they it's just yeah, it's really sickening to watch. But I think that a lot

of it is just brainwashing and the fact that they don't bother to stop and think and check themselves and realize, you know, they'll say, Oh, well, we have to stop the billionaires. We have to stop these ultra privileged, you know, like, do you understand how fucking

privileged you are in your position? And yeah, you might not be the top 0.00001, but you're probably the top half of a percent. It's fucking mental. Yeah. And they fucking love to virtual signal. Yes, I love it because they get social credit for it. And they need

it. Yeah, it disgusts me. You're so toxic. You're so toxic. Yeah. I will, I will be cancelled tomorrow. Are we all we're all going to be cancelled? That's for sure. I'm actually looking forward to it. Yeah. Yeah, fuck them. You know, we need to start fresh. Yeah, well,

about the privacy as you talked, you're already more private than me because like, you know, at that point, when I was, when I started thinking about like, should I get some pseudonym

for myself on social, like on Twitter, GitHub, etc. You know, should I should I be more anonymous, and so on. And when I was at that point, it was already too late because I started contributing

to some of the projects. And like in the local community, I was like doing some stuff, some work, some talks and so on. So for me at that time, and even more now would be like, you

have to start over to build a new persona. And I wasn't like able to convince myself to really do it. Do you regret that now? Well, not now. But God knows if I'm going to regret

it in the future. Yeah, it's a tough one. I mean, you say you say I've got more privacy. If, you know, any three letter agents wanted to find out who I was, they would do it in about three seconds. You know, it's I'm under no illusion that my privacy is good enough

to protect myself from them. But it's something, you know, it is something. At least some freaks and so on, you know, if there was a freak that would be, you know, that would cancel your life, that would like to cancel your life or anything, steal our bitcoins. He doesn't

know your name. But that's true. But my name is public. And thanks to, thanks to fucking state data, which is open. People, people, some people can know my address. So that's really not cool for me. So yeah, I might come to revise my decision.

Yeah, it's hard. But like you said, like earlier on, I guess it was a little bit different. I think it's becoming more more of an idea now because this thing is bigger and less underground. You know, I think things change. And I think a lot of people are probably in

your position. I mean, in some ways, it may not be good for you, but it is good to have some faces in Bitcoin because the majority of people still don't trust nims. Like some of my best friends are nims. And I've never met them in real life. Bitcoin Q&A is an example.

Well, yeah, I have it the same. Yeah, he's a fucking robot. Like I've never even met him, like a litchy. When I think of him, when I speak to him, I just imagine his little robot face. And that's all, that's all I know. And, you know, I trust him more than

most people in my life. But I think that's quite rare. And until you're in Bitcoin, to begin to trust someone who's a nim. I think it's a very, it's very different. It takes a long time to wrap your head around it.

Yeah, it kind of does. But once you get used to it, it's actually kind of liberating because, you know, I work at like, for some arrival at Undo Joe, and I work at Ronin Dojo doing Ronin UI. So I'm at basic Ronin Dojo is my site project, basically. But I work with two

teams. And I've never seen any one of them. I don't know their names. I don't know, like, almost anything. It's actually kind of liberating. You know, my wife always asks me, so how are

the boys? Did you ask them? How are they? And I'm always like, yeah, I don't know. We don't talk about that shit. We don't care. Like, we talk, you know, business, like what we need to do. And so, and we talk shit about everything. But we don't, we're not like talking

personal shit. Yeah, you have like, you need to have like, I think you need to have like two separate groups of friends, like your personal friends in physical world, which I know you, and you can share your personal stuff with them. And yeah, then you're like

digital world where you're totally so anonymous. Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to go back, though. I mean, I don't know if that's something you find, but for me, going into the real world, as it's called, speaking to the sort of normal people that I have to interact

with in a daily basis who are not involved in this that don't know I'm involved in this, I find it really tiring. I find it very, very tiring to listen to their views on things which are completely opposed to mine. And I find it very frustrating and hard not to

just go off on rants, because the things that they spout, the things that they say are just well, basically, just fucking annoy me. And is that something that you found in your day to day life that like it is difficult with what I think is pretty extreme views compared

to most people. Do you find that difficult? Oh, yeah, really, like my friends, like, which I have known since like middle school, which you would call middle school, I guess, from since I was a child. When I got real heart into Bitcoin, like they couldn't understand

it. They were just, you know, this is they're talking like shit about it. And it still goes on. And I actually started to like avoid those people, because they bring nothing to the

table for discussion. I have some still, I still have some like friends, which are open and are open to discussion. But I would say those are minority. So yeah, the meat space

is like smaller, but the digital space is bigger. Actually, when I cooked like some some bubble got smaller and some got bigger. And but at least I also have some like, not really friends,

but known associates or people in the like local libertarian community, which are open to Bitcoin and small state energy and so on. So that's a weird line, that whole of minochism, manochism and, you know, libertarian, do what's your views on all that? Like, have you gone

fully, just like, if you had the red button, you'd switch it all off or you kind of somewhere in the middle? Well, I would say, I view myself as a cool capitalist with crypto anarchist

like roots, but the first point would be never turn it off at all at once. If if ever people to like go to like deleting the state or removing the state, it would be a very slow transition.

And it would have to be very slow transition. You just can't turn everything off because because that would be fucking chaos. So like, I'm an anarchist, but I don't want to, you know, smash the state and turn off everything. You know, we should like minimize slowly every

aspect of the state that controls our lives. And it will be very slow process. If it would ever start to happen anywhere on this planet. Maybe it wouldn't even end. Maybe if it would

near the end, there would still be some small or super small state apparatus that would be needed for people. Nobody knows. Yeah, nobody knows. And I think it's probably not something that we're likely to see in our lifetime, whether we want it or not, because it's just,

you know, it is such a massive machine and people are so used to it. But yeah, it would be nice to just see less, you know, be nice for it because it's only going one way at the moment. And it's more, more regulation, more control, more power. And it would be

nice to see it go a little bit the other way. And you know, that's what I see all of this helping to do. And giving people the option to take back their freedom, their ability to make the decision, even though it's very hard to do is to just say, no, fuck this, I'm going

to save myself. And I'm going to do what I can. Is there anything that you're working on at the moment that you can share with me like this 2.0 stuff? Like what what it is you're planning to bring in or is it all really, really secret? And I'll just know when when

I know. Well, I don't think like it's it's not a secret, but a few points, basically. Well, first thing first, it's going to be totally new design. Okay. So it's not it's

like the layout is going to be like similar. But the design as a whole, like the feeling of it, it's going to be more professional, more refined. The second thing is that most

and but it's not I'm not sure if we're going to be able to bring this in the first 2.0 version maybe in some later versions. But we what we want to do is that we don't even need for the users to SSH into their machine, enter a Ronin CLI, you know, the screen and so the

menu over over that machine. It should be all all what's possible to do from from the SSH and in the Ronin CLI should be possible to do in the Ronin UI at some point. Okay. Sooner than later, of course, that's that's the whole point of having to UI to to to to

move from for users from SSH to just opening their browser. And yeah, so so what's that going to mean is so they should be able to install new applications. They should be able

to control most of their dojo, Virupu and so on. We of course want to like bring in more of the dojo and Virupu functionalities and add some of our own at some more applications

and tools. For example, what we really want to have and we're still working on it is to have Boltzmann. Boltzmann is the calculator thing, is it? Yeah, yeah, Boltzmann is the calculation that Samurai Bolt uses to determine if the transaction like what's the entropy

of the transaction and so on. So that's that's one thing that we want to have in in the Ronin UI. For example, very cool, very cool. And so I think because I only got a couple of days with it before I managed to break it. When I was on there from honestly, I've rebuilt

my Ronin dojo. I think nine or 10 times now. I it's just like test it. I do I do free testing like if there's a way to break it, I'll fucking I'll break it. So but when I did when I did use it, I seem to remember there was like, you know, where you have to rescan to find

the amounts. Like if it's showing zero balances and you have to go into the right, I can't run what it's called now, but that's it. From memory, that was now accessible in the web browser. Is that right? Well, like, it was always accessible via dojo separate. Yeah.

The default dojo maintenance tool, of course, of course, has this feature, which is basically copied it to Ronin dojo. But in order to well, that's one of the features that just make

made sense because you we want everything to have in one place. If something goes wrong, you want to do a restart check logs or you want to rescan and, you know, do other stuff. So we just wanted to have all the stuff in one place in Ronin dojo. And we're still trying

to like make it more usable. And I think there'll be a lot of like iterations over how it's going to play out in the end, even in the later versions of 2.0. Because we always get

a lot of feedback on how it should, you know, like behave, feel and what it should show. Like, which is a good thing, of course, getting feedback is priceless. If people want more things, then that's good for us. We can maybe maybe it's it will be worth for other people

as well. Definitely. And do you have some sort of timeline roughly? I know like devs hate to give timelines, but you have a rough, a rough idea when you're just aiming for 2.0 2.0, hopefully around October. Oh, wow. Okay. Sooner than I thought.

Yeah. Well, you know, hopefully. Very cool. Well, I look forward to that. I look forward to saying it. Yeah. And I forgot, not forgot, but I didn't mention that, you know, for the folks like you that break stuff, we will have our like, we will have new installation procedure

that will allow just plugging. If you buy a note, like Ronan Dojo, like box, you will just plug it in. You will sign in using your browser, create a password, and it will it will do the whole installation from within your browser. No, no need to SSH in like a

complete plug and play. That's very cool. Yeah. Yeah. Total plug and play. I've now done it so many times that I feel I feel I feel I can do it again. But definitely, if I had that option at the beginning, I would certainly go for that. And is that something that's

available now for people or is that again, October? No, no, no, not at all right now. This is still in development. Okay. Cool. Well, that'll be, that'd be exciting to see because yeah, I think a lot of people will go for that option. And then they can, so it's kind of like in the same way, like a novel is like a plug and play, they'll be

up to order one of these and then just go and it works. Yeah. Yeah, basically. We want to have like, yeah, a nodal, but a run into a job box and people, people should have as far as I know, people should have an option to like choose different tiers of hardware

which they want. So it should be, it should be affordable and for people who have money, they should also be able to get like the top tier. They can go with, they can go with like a rock pro, because I think a lot, a lot of people that seem to be in the forums

are going with them rather than the Raspberry Pi's and seem to say that it's a bit more stable and all the rest of it. I've only ever used the Pi's. Yeah, we don't actually like the Pi's anymore and we are all rock pro fans because of course, it's like more expensive,

but I have like two, I have to do Joe's at home. One is a Raspberry Pi 4 and one is a rock pro. It's a Pi 64 and the difference is like really, you can see the difference

between those. The Pi is great because it's so small, you can fit it in anywhere, hide it. It's good, but if you want something really stable and if I would run more applications

on the same machine, like for example, mempool.space, BTC pay server and so on, I think the Pi would melt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. Or maybe that's something I upgrade myself to at some point. Yeah, well look, Pavel, it's been really nice to get a chat

to you. I see you pop up in all the forums all the time, but I never really had a chance to have a proper chat and yeah, it's been really cool. Like I said, it's really, really good what you guys are doing and the UI, the interface is looking so slick. I can't wait

for the 2.0. But yeah, before we wind up the call, is there any other updates or anything else that you wanted to let anyone know about? First thing first, thank you very much for inviting me. I'm really glad that you're a fan. You use the product and when I see you

in some room, I will send you a message. Thank you for coming to my TED talk and everyone, please don't use custodial services, KYC and mix your coins properly. Excellent, properly, another nice little dig. Yeah, yeah, awesome. Thanks, mate. I've really enjoyed

it and I'm sure we'll speak in the background as well. But yeah, absolute pleasure and thanks so much for what you do. Yeah, I can say the same. Thank you very much. Cheers, mate. Cheers.

The revelation of next generation will be here for Genesis. The revelation of next generation. Hear me. But all the crowd come in. A day by day.

And no one stops it. In many ways. All a peacemaker. Turn what officer.

Police at the ease in the state. Scaring the nation with the guns and ammunition. Police at the ease in the state. Oh, yeah. Finding the nation with the guns and ammunition. Genesis.

The revelation. The next generation. Hear me. All the crowd come in. A day by day.

No one stops it. In many ways. All the peacemaker. Turn what officer. Hear what I say.

Police, police, police at the ease. Oh, yeah. Police, police, police at the ease. Oh, yeah.

And it's at the ease, the ease, the ease, the ease. Oh, yeah. I'm hearing the fight that the needs are. Oh, yeah.

Shoot them, shoot them, a gun's back. The guns and ammunition. Oh, yeah. Police, police, police, police. Oh, yeah. Scaring.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I don't care, I don't care, I don't care I don't care, I don't care, I don't care I don't care, I don't care, I don't care I don't care, I don't care, I don't care The burnings, the burnings, the burnings The burnings, the burnings, the burnings I don't care, I don't care, I don't care I don't care, I don't care, I don't care

The chirac trap and the mela

The chirac trap and the mela The chirac trap and the mela The chirac trap and the mela The chirac trap and the mela The chirac trap and the mela The chirac trap and the mela