The Power of Crypto sovereignty: A Conversation with Erik Cason.

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now, what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

[ Laughs ]

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space, and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

Welcome back to Bit by Bit. Today's episode is with Eric Kason. I recorded this a couple of weeks ago, but I've been slow getting things out. And then we had the Miami conference, and I thought, "Ah, fuck it, I'll wait till after that."

So, anyway, I'm in a bit of a rush today. So, a short intro. But a big thank you to Eric for coming on the show. We had a really good discussion about why politicians can go fuck themselves and why Bitcoin matters.

Before we start, I just want to say a huge thank you to everyone who's been supporting this show with boosts and sharing with friends and family. And a huge thank you to the sponsors that allow this show to continue.

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Enjoy the show.

Hey, Eric. How you doing? Good. Just following up on some emails. How are you, Max? Yeah, very well. Thank you. Just grabbing a beer. I imagine you're on coffee this early in the morning.

Nope. Beer, too. No, I'm joking. I'm on. [ Laughter ] It hasn't been one of those days. Not yet. You're in the UK, right? Yeah, I'm in the UK, so it's just ticked five. Nice. Well, good. It's a good time for you to have a beer and get to unwind a little.

Exactly. Well, it's a pleasure to have you on the show, mate. Thanks for having me. I've really appreciated a lot of your writing and your thoughts on Bitcoin for a long time. So, you know, as I said to you in the message, it was just a chance to catch up with you and no real agenda, but just talk about how things are going.

'Cause it seems to me things are spicing up a little bit, and before we jumped on the call, I went on to your Twitter and had a look at your pin tweet, and I think it's very clear that you're right there.

You know, this is a political tool, and it feels like things are hotting up. Is that just me feeling like that, or are you feeling the same? No, I'm feeling the same, and I've felt like it's always been political.

It's just, it's needed to keep that hidden for a while, and that's kind of why, that's my whole stick with the idea of what my theory of crypto sovereignty is, is that like the sovereignty is actually hidden up until the moment that you need it, and it has to do with the actual potentiality

of being able to display that you actually have sovereignty through this medium, and it's only vis-a-vis the digital becoming such a powerful entity that essentially that politicizes itself.

And that's where we're at right now, and what we're seeing with the development with general artificial intelligence, just how powerful the internet is on a whole. So it really indicates to me that this truly is a political power, but it's only through our recognition that it's a political power,

and that it can act as a strong demarcation and limit for the state to not be able to circumvent or pass it. A weird feeling having something where government can't steal it from you, and obviously they can to some extent, but.

- Well, they can't compromise the system on a whole, and to me like that, that's almost more important because it, as humans, we still have all of our same vulnerabilities, if you will, but through the solidarity of recognizing that this is a sovereign form beyond the state, and as a political entity, and once we've joined it,

that it's something much larger than just us. So while I could get a $5 wrench attack, we can't $5 wrench attack everyone in the system, and that's what allows for the system to function.

And my hope is that as we advance more and more into this field, that there's going to be technical solutions to be able to help assist with the idea of a $5 wrench attack or something similar.

- Yeah, it seems like there's been a lot of strides towards that, like, multi-sig is pretty interesting and done right, it's very powerful. And a lot of the other tech that's out there makes things a lot more difficult for them.

But I think the point that you've made is, yeah, they might be able to attack me or you or one other, but the idea of Bitcoin, they can't stop that, and they can't stop this movement, which is pretty exciting really.

Like, it seems to me you have a similar disdain for governments that I do, and it's just nice to see that for once, it seems like there's fuck all they can do and to watch them panic is enjoyable.

- Yeah, and I mean, like, it'll quickly shift from enjoyable to terrifying. - Yes, you know, and like, to be clear, like, I'm not just like, fuck this day because I hate them and they sock and they take money from me.

No, like, I started as like a hardcore leftist liberal who truly believed in the goodness of government and our ability to use that. And through my sincere engagement with that ideology, I realized that it's a false narrative, you know, and it really sucks.

It's hard to come to terms with the fact that the state doesn't care about you, that they're happy if you and your family die and they won't do anything to make a difference to stop it. And it's really sad and tragic.

And I wish that my taxes paid for social goods and other things, but it doesn't. It pays for the military, it pays for killing, it pays for prisons, it pays for the torture and imprisonment of humanity, you know?

And until you can grok that, I have trouble finding common ground with a lot of people. And this is one of the things I find really interesting about Bitcoin is that it invites all of these different pluralities into it, but at the end of the day, like this is anarchist, these are anarchist tools.

And not like if you are a status using these anarchist tools, like I have a great essay in my book about this called "The Encrypted Beauty of Crypto", like you're actually probably my best ally because like you're the idiot who thinks that the state can somehow control this in a meaningful way.

And like you pushing that and being like, no, like you guys should integrate this in the state, it's a great idea. Like you're my double agent, like you're the individual who's in there representing me and like you don't even know it.

And so like that's why you're the best possible double agent that I could have too. And so I'm excited to see more people, and I've seen this happen from interacting with the technology that more and more people move from being just maybe libertarian all the way into the anarchist camp, which is really refreshing and great for me to see.

- Do you remember what it was like when you did believe in government and you sort of went down this rabbit hole and what that feeling was like for you? If you did believe and thought they were doing good, was it a very uncomfortable feeling to start revealing actually what's sort of behind the facade of government?

- You know, it was much more just a crestfall in this. My experience of change really came through the Occupy movement. And to start with it, it was really great for people to see the problem, not like big money was the problem, the way that they manipulate and contort laws for themselves.

People got what the problem was. Then very quickly it devolved into all of the general bullshit that doesn't create solutions. In terms of, you know, we got to elect the right people, we got to pass the right bills, we have to use the state for all the things that we want.

And for me, the main moment of changing was, I could see how difficult it was, but I still have this idea, like if we just try hard enough. And I was actually out in Philadelphia in 2012, that it's something called the Occupy National Gathering.

And like my moment of change happened where I was on the national mall with some other people, some cops approached us and they're like, guys got to get out of here, we don't want to, as we're saying, you know, it's public property.

And we were actually like right next to the Freedom of Assembly Memorial, that's like on the national mall. And it was amazing 'cause like the cops started shoving me and literally pushed me on top of like the, it's like a big block that like has chiseled out on it, the First Amendment.

And like they were literally beating me with trungeons on top of this memorial or not memorial, but like towards this dedication towards the Freedom of Assembly. And I remember I was just struck at, like through the physical pain, I remember this idea bubbling up of that like, I'm literally on top of the Freedom to Assembly monument

and I am being beaten by these pigs. And I was like, oh, like this, none of this works. Like that this, it was like a real epiphany moment. And I remember I like dragged myself away bruised up and I was like, okay, like there's a rogue apparatus of individuals who enforce a generalized lawlessness that they believe in.

And that's what we live in. There's no passing laws, there's no changing anything. Like this is what the structure of power is. And I was extremely defeated, you know, I had heard about Bitcoin at this point in time, but my involvement, you know, was little more than just reading a little bit.

And it was really through the course of that year that I went home, I had to move back home with my parents, I had to work some really terrible jobs for like $12 an hour. But meanwhile, like the whole time, I was like reading about Bitcoin slowly starting to get it.

And I'm pretty sure it was by the fall of 2012 that I had started sending money via the red phone over to Mount Gox. And I started buying. And, you know, that was kind of the start of my journey and really educating myself beyond a lot of the leftist ideology and kind of my degrees in international relations.

So it's pretty familiar with economic principles, but this gave me an opportunity to go a lot deeper into Austrian economics, which I hadn't been familiar with at that point in time, but really educating myself more and more on these features helped me address a lot of the points of leftism that I had a strong criticism of to realize

that like they don't work. And so for me, that change was really understanding that as much as we desire for governments to be apparatuses of good, like that's just not in the cards for how they function on a societal level.

And that's one of the reasons that I felt so intrigued with Bitcoin is because I realized like we're, there's no humans involved in this process. We're like asking the machine to maintain its oath to itself.

And that's what I really hooked on for understanding was like a really important thing, was that the oath of cryptography to itself is unbreakable. There's no methodology for it to lie through that or to be able to violate that in the same way that a man can violate his oath to himself.

And that really was a big step in my journey and understanding how and why this is so different. - So it took getting the freedom beaten into you to sort of... - Yeah, quite literally (laughs) - To do away with those thoughts.

You know, the thing is they are nice thoughts. And I think, you know, most people that I speak to in this country, like not the crazy, blue-haired types of people, but the people on the left mainly in this country, they do mean well and want good to happen.

It's just kind of until you experience just how corrupted the system is. And also like knowing there's that alternative, like you say, like it can't corrupt itself and you know the rules so far ahead.

Until you know that that is available and it works, it kind of feels like, oh well, it's kind of the best option. And you can understand and forgive people for thinking that. But it does feel certainly now like more and more people are starting to look around and be like, things are really bad.

Like things are really fucking weird at the moment and more people are searching. And so I feel like with all the education that's out there and all the pods and articles and books and everything else like it, it feels like it's a good time, but it is slightly worrying to see what governments do at the same time because, you know,

we're taking their ultimate power or that is the sort of goal is to take their ultimate power. If their money becomes worthless because people go to better money, then how can they afford to go to war and do all the crazy shit they do?

They can't fund it and that's gonna be an issue for them. - Yeah, and I mean, to me it's very clear that they haven't understood that this is an actual existential threat to them at this point in time.

They like think it's bad, they don't like it. It's a thorn in their side, but like they don't get that this will actually destroy them. And to me like, that's what's gonna be the most fascinating is when, and as anti-politics as I am, if I saw a strong movement that seemed capable of actually implementing this sort of new idea

of the political that seems to be rising up with Bitcoin, I'd be pretty excited about it. But essentially like, I think once they realize and see that Bitcoin can be an existential threat, like I think they're gonna go full authoritarian, totalitarianism, try to hunt down Bitcoiners.

And my hope is at that point in time, Bitcoiners will rise up to the task to realize that we are actually a political entity at this point in time, and that we'll need to fight it on that front.

'Cause like a night watchman state could actually operate quite well on top of a Bitcoin standard. And as anti-status as I am, I could see a use for a night watchman state as hesitant as I say that.

- And I think the real value would be is that like this is the actual compromise that is supposed to be governed. Is to realize that there are methods and modes to create actual consensual agreements and the power of the purse is the most powerful method we have for that.

And so forcing the state back onto a sound money standard so that essentially taxes and regulations and various fees that the state incurs upon people that like this now needs to actually be part of some sort of a consensual agreement where we understand that our tax money is being used specifically for purposes that we want.

And one of my main objections is like I have no interest in war. And like whatever people wanna scream or freak out or tell me like I do not give a fuck. I'm sorry, but like your weapons of war, your missiles, your jets, all of this shit.

It is a complete insane bullshit that you and your friends encourage with each other to go murder other people halfway around the world who you've never met, you know? And I- - Yeah, it's horrifically disgusting and I really think people need to take more time and energy to think about if you're asked to go to war,

do you wanna kill somebody that you don't know anything about who you've never met, whose story you don't understand in any way, shape, or form? I sure as hell don't. And I also understand that even these people that I don't know, I can have solidarity with them and so far of understanding that they also suffer

under a tyranny where people steal money from them for the purpose of war and make them terrified and try to regulate everything in their life. And so I have more solidarity with a common person who I know nothing about than I do with my own military and their desire to kill and impress other people

in order to try to advance the cause of supposedly America, but that's really just the imperialist federal government. So to me like that's the main objective I have here is that I am 100% against war and I will do everything in my power to stop it.

And as far as I'm concerned, Bitcoin is the most powerful vehicle that we have on this planet in order to stop war. And I think every single person who considers themselves an anti-war activist, if Bitcoin isn't your main thing that you're plugging, pushing, and trying to make used in the world,

I think you're just insincere with what you're trying to do. - Yeah, I would agree with that. It's very difficult to go to war if you can't create money out of thin air. You know, you've got to actually create something of value or tax people.

You become very unpopular very quickly if you start to do that. You speak to everyone from every country in all sorts of different situations and a normal person is all getting fucked by their government.

They all want more freedom. They all want their value to stop being stolen. The issue is is the propaganda is so good, or maybe not good, but ingrained into people. And we've seen it over the last few years, just how easy it is to lead people.

So my big fear is like, when governments work out just how powerful this is and they do start looking at these lists of Bitcoiners and they do start coming after them, which I'm sure they will.

My fear is that the average man in the street is gonna support it. Just like people were supporting COVID and attacking people who decided not to get jabbed and all this kind of nonsense that was going on.

Even though it was so obviously stupid, it was like people just go along with it 'cause they watch the news. And so people will be like, "Ah, you know, economic collapse is because of Bitcoin and these people caused it and they're disgusting and they're the haves and we're the have-nots, fuck them.

Yeah, who cares if they get captured? Who cares if their Bitcoin gets seized?" And I think that's my biggest fear is like, who does the better propaganda? You know, we're pretty good, I think, Bitcoiners, but I don't know, maybe governments have more reach.

Yeah, I do think governments have more reach and I do think when that sort of final war comes, you know, it's gonna be, for every one of us, there's probably gonna be a hundred of that. And like, we will be on our back foot for a while and it will probably mean a lot of people will have to move to new countries and new jurisdictions

where they will be safer because of the way people will treat them in those other jurisdictions. And, you know, it's deeply sad 'cause, yeah, I wouldn't even say the propaganda's good, but it's so incessant and repetitive and omnipresent that most people can't even think for themselves anymore.

That's one of the things I struggle the most with my liberal friends is trying to have sincere dialogues with them about a lot of stuff that's going on. And to me, you know, they're reactionary authoritarians at this point in time 'cause when they go, "We'll trust the science."

I'm like, "Well, like, what does that fucking mean?" Like science, well, we laugh, but like sincerely, like science isn't a method of truthing. Like, you don't go science, I summon you, tell me the truth and it goes, "Okay, here it is."

Like, no, it is literally a method that we use to infer hypotheses to try to uncover the truth. And when you start taking what general authorities tell you, whether that be a doctor or a government and you're not doing the work yourself to understand what's true, like you are now captured in an authoritarian form of thought

that you can only escape from by asking yourself to truly think, you know? And to me, like this is, what we're talking about is fucking absurd, to be clear. Like, I think if we talk to anybody from any other age and was like, "Yeah, so the government like gave them a right "to like print out money and they say it's worth this much,

"but that's only decree, it's actually just paper money." I think most people would kind of laugh and be like, "So there's this like gigantic powerful entity "that like declares to you what the value of things are."

And you're like, "Yeah, and you're like, "So like this water, "would they say that's like worth something?" They'd be like, "No, no, it's just that anybody "can steal that and do whatever they want with it."

You know, and so like, it's really become detrimental to the thought process in and of itself. 'Cause again, like these liberal folks, they're good people who really want what's best for everybody, but because they're not thinking at all about that, they find themselves to be tools of general evil

because they don't actually stop and go, "Huh." Like is shipping people off to death camps like wrong? Like, should I not be involved with that? You know, and this was Hannah our dental thing about like, you know, Eichmann did that.

He like shipped people off to go die in death camps. And his response was, "Well, I'm a good person "because I'm following the rules society gave me "and the only way we can have a good society "is if we follow the rules or go, "I'm a good guy."

And our dent was like, "No, no, like you're actually "the opposite of a good guy because you are not even "taking the effort to think about what you're doing "and whether or not it's right or wrong."

That's what's actually evil. It's like you're not thinking about it, you know? And to me like, that's why what's going on in the world today is so horrific is that like it truly is evil and it's not evil because there's maniacal people who want to hurt, but because there's literally zero thought that goes into it whatsoever.

And that's why when you get the thing where you go, well, shouldn't we not pay taxes because it pays for bombs? People go, whoa, whoa, hang on, that we don't pay taxes. Everything starts to break down.

It's a crazy sight. And what I find so interesting is in this process, what happens instead of going through true thought, it goes toward this catastrophization form of thought that things become really dangerous, so dangerous we can't even consider it and we must reject it right away.

And I want to point out like that's the thing that keeps everybody under the thumb. It's being terrified because of what they told you is true. You know, say like that's what COVID was. It was like stay in your house, everybody's going to fucking die.

You know, it's like, yeah, it's horrible. It's crazy, it's terrifying. Everyone's going to die, don't get close to anybody, stay six feet away, wear mask indoors, be suspicious. Otherwise you will fucking die, you know?

And like, because you can get people so terrified of what could happen, they don't even think about whether or not, if it's true. - It was so interesting watching how everyone behaved in that COVID time as someone who from the very beginning because of being sort of the mindset I have

like the very beginning me and my missus were both like, this is bullshit. Fuck this, we're going to do what we want. We're not going to stay in our house and watching how other people behaved.

It was so like proper propaganda. It felt like we're in like Soviet Russia or something because everyone every day at whatever it was five o'clock would go out onto their porch and clap and cheer for the NHS and they all had their little flags and they all would stay in their house and everyone would be wearing their mask everywhere

and everyone would be following orders. And it was just such a weird thing just to observe with that mindset of like, oh, this is total bullshit. If you look back in history and you see how this propaganda's worked and always try and get people to read, I don't know if you've ever read it, White Pill by Michael Malice.

- No, I like Malice a lot but I haven't read White Pill. - It's one I get people to try and read because it's just like goes into the history of Soviet Russia and just how crazy things can get.

And it's really nicely written because it's like, it's quite approachable for people. And like, it was like a playbook out of that. I was like, oh, this is where this goes. This is where this goes.

And people just fucking follow along and suddenly they're like, oh shit. Things are really bad now. So yeah, it's, I don't know, I have hope but it is slightly worrying and you touched on moving abroad and that's been something that we've considered especially in that time, it's always like, well, where?

Because there's no perfect place. Like I know a lot of people moving to a Salvador and some people are going to Texas and there's some sort of hotspots but it's like, by no means perfect and things can change so quickly.

- Yeah, and I mean like that's one of the reasons that I haven't entertained it more seriously because also like for me that also comes down to that like there's a defeatism that I have to accept that my country has been taken away from me by these authoritarians and totalitarianists.

And I don't think I can accept that actually. You know, like I don't know what I'm gonna do yet but like this, this is not their country, it's my country. You know, and I say that not because like I own it but because I think I align more closely with the values than they do.

And I think it's really important that we realize that both the right and the left have abused us for generations and that the only way that we can address this politically is through a new form of the political.

And I don't know what that is or what it looks like but I do know it involves using tools like Bitcoin, like No Star, utilizing asymmetric cryptography in order to build new systems of organization and I think it's a dualistic cause, you know, like in terms of I think that there's a political wing

and I also think that there's a direct action wing, you know and I think it approaches things here in the United States in a very unique and different way than any prior political movement.

And at the end of the day, like I think it's really important that we fight on this. And like this is the big message I wanna get across is that like we're right and we're not right because we're gonna make money or like we're right because like this is good, like this is the good.

And furthermore, like if we do not push this good out into the world, the blackness and the darkness can overtake us specifically with these extreme technologies that we have like general AI.

And so like we need to insist upon our God given rights to be respected not because the government needs to respect them but because we are human beings. We deserve the sovereignty and the dignity that Bitcoin promises us, that no government, no institution, no human being can offer.

And to me, that's the most important thing is that Bitcoin gives us a kind of dignity that all beings deserve. - It's pretty amazing. The some days where you wake up and it's like things look a little bit dark and then always have a bit of a spring in my step when I think I've got some sats that none of these fuckers can have

and they can't do anything about it. And that always makes me feel that no matter how dark things are out there, I feel like I'm doing something that's productive by holding them and them not being able to have them and using them in peer to peer fashion and working on the stuff we're working on.

And I feel like at least there's something that's useful, you know, 'cause it's like protesting's cool but it doesn't really change things. You can talk about things all day long but unless you actually use the tools, nothing really happens.

And you mentioned like Noster and some of these other tools and like done properly, especially if you try and keep your identity hidden as best you can and do things in a smart way, you have this protection and you have this ability to move freely in the world or freer to protect at least your energy that you've put into work.

Like that can't just be taken by somebody. And that's pretty powerful. I think that kind of should invigorate people, should give people some excitement in life again and like fill out they've got something to fight for, which is pretty exciting.

- Absolutely. And I would point out like that hope of something better to fight for and also the assurance that your stats are yours alone. - Like this is something of unequivocal importance because like with that, you can always hold on to that rhymazone of hope.

Whereas without it, like you can actually fall into that nihilistic darkness. And I think that that is so important because it is only through this perspective that keeps people in that nihilistic darkness where you go, there is no hope, there's no way to get past the state.

We just have to do what they say that, you know, the money's fucked, there's no way to solve it. If you can get past all of that and really grok Bitcoin and understand why and how it protects you, I don't think you return to that darkness.

And by not being in that darkness, we maintain our own motivation and power to do what it is that we need to. And to me, that's so important because, and as many of us already see like, look like I'm fine.

Like I don't need to participate in this. I don't need to present my ideas or anything. But I'm doing it because I sincerely believe that this is our one shot to raise humanity up in a better way than being captured by the digital panopticon where we are surveilled all the time forever.

I think that makes us something fundamentally not human. And I think Bitcoin is the only thing that allows for us to address the technological age and maintain our humanity and sovereignty in that.

I think without Bitcoin, like we will very quickly find ourselves in a transhumanistic future where we don't look anything like prior humans, nor can we even access forms of thought and agency that prior humans had.

- Yeah, more like cattle. - Yep, it definitely feels like that's the way it's going. And like, you know, in history, there's generally been different flavors. You'd have some places that were more free than others, but it does seem like most governments everywhere at the moment.

I can't think of anywhere generally that is like giving more freedom. And it does seem like it's slipping that way. And America seemed like one of the best places, like certainly the idea of America, actually I never really appreciated before getting involved in Bitcoin.

I'd been once or twice. I was like, that's a cool place, but I didn't really understand like what the values were. And I didn't really understand how important the freedom of speech was or being able to actually have a firearm, things like that, 'cause it's just not something that we have in the UK.

And more and more I like come to appreciate that. And I do feel like it aligns the vision there, aligns pretty well with Bitcoin. - Oh yeah, I mean like the idea of Americanism and what it classically is, I think aligns more deeply with Bitcoin than anything else.

America, the contemporary is an extremely different story. You know, but to me like that's one of the things that I would like to see with a burgeoning political movement is essentially returned to those core values.

You know, that I truly believe are both right and left values. And it's about solidifying those in respect for the individual, you know? And I think there needs to be, like I just had a great conversation talking about the comparing, you know, the white paper and the declaration of independence and what some of the similarities are.

And for me, like again, this is why this is all philosophical to me. Like what we are trying to do is fundamentally advanced to the good in the world. And the good does exist just as, you know, capital T truth does exist.

And it's only in a fucked up nihilistic world where we're told there is no truth, there is no good that, you know, there's no deeper meaning or purpose to life. Does the possibility of this stuff present itself in such a stark and radical way that we can't even conceptualize what it would mean to actually be free, to actually be at peace,

to live in a harmonious society where we're not always trying to take advantage of war. And I very much believe that Bitcoin with what it teaches us about both money and about respecting the sovereignty of other individuals helps jumpstart thinking again so that we can actually imagine what that could look like.

- Yeah. And so if you imagine what that could look like, and let's take America for an example, because I think if anywhere on the planet has a chance, it's probably there. If you took it as being America, like do you just see that as having lots and lots of smaller states where you have certain rules and people will go there or not,

depending on those rules and you have kind of a privatization of maybe like some type of military for protection or do you have like some, 'cause it's, you know, you're not going to just go to like this perfect Bitcoin world that you could dream of hundreds of years in the future.

Like there's got to be this point where things start to change and there are going to be people on both sides. There's going to be people who want the freedom and they want to care for their neighbors and they want the things that Bitcoin is want.

And there's going to be people opposed to that. So do you sort of see like a separation or like how do you, how do you think it looks like? - Yeah, what, in my ideal world, what I would love to see would be, so there's a way to amend the US Constitution using state legislatures directly that totally circumnavigates using Congress

or the president. And that's called Article 5. And essentially, I would like to see states pass and an Article 5 convention get together, essentially rewrite the Constitution, break the federal government so that all 50 states become totally self-sovereign governing entities.

Maybe they can federalize, maybe they federate, maybe they split and go their different ways. Either way about it, I'm happy because the United States has done. Whatever new republics pop up, I think will be a whole smattering of different flavors.

And within this, I'd like to see the general structures of American government sort of invert themselves so that local city governments become the most powerful entities that exist, followed by county governments, and then followed by state governments and followed by the nation state.

And essentially, I think that everywhere from small little 150 person communities up to cities of 100,000 people or more, all will sort of have their own unique presentation of what their form of politics will be.

And I think this is how we get Bitcoin citadels is we essentially get a whole smattering of small different communities of Bitcoiners that come together and choose to live and transact with one another using Bitcoin and that that slowly starts to build up a whole culture.

I think one of the most interesting things is it sounds like you have a small child as I have small children as well. And even though we're the first people to be building this culture, even though it's our culture, we're foreigners in it, but like our children, they will be indigenous to this culture.

And like, that's where stuff's gonna get really radical. 'Cause to them, they only know this as being the one thing that is right and their parents have represented a form of life to them that like this, this is the cause that we need to push out into the world.

So I think when they come into maturity, they will radically transform and help push forward those sort of cultural norms that we wanna see more than anywhere else in the world. And so I think that there's a very, very long game that we're playing, but I feel really hopeful because the kind of kids that Bitcoiners are raising

and the kind of dialogue that we have and the purpose that we have to that. So I really think it's gonna be the next generation that's gonna do a lot of the work that we're creating the scaffolding for.

- Yeah, it feels to me like that. Like it's gonna take some time but sort of given the two options as it becomes more normalized, the younger generations, you know, it's kind of obvious. Like if you lay it out to a kid, you're like, do you want money, where the value goes down over time?

Or do you want the one where it kind of, you know, you at least keep your value? Do you want one where you can send it and spend it how you want or do you want one where you're told what you can or can't do?

And you start going down that list of pros and cons of the two. And it's kind of like, it's pretty fucking obvious which one they're gonna choose. - Well, it's funny when you start talking to children, you realize how fucking stupid all of this is.

Like how like truly, truly deeply idiotic it is. - 'Cause they ask the questions that adults don't want to ask. Like kids aren't afraid to ask the questions and be like, but why? You're like, good fucking question.

But why is it like that? Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know, it makes no sense. - Yeah, and like that's, it's really important to understand that like that's what that propaganda has done to us over the past, you know, our entire lifetime is that it has taught us to no longer question things in a meaningful way

and just accept the general insanity that comes along. You know, and I really hope that this will just return us to a form of life where logic takes its rightful place in our assemblage of the world and the way that we reason out how it operates as opposed to reducing ourselves to authoritarian decrees.

- Yeah, and the same way that it becomes obvious which system you choose. I think societies which trade with one another and look after each other, it does work. It's what we've done for a long, long time.

It's gonna be quite clear what works. And it's very easy for governments who are sat thousands of miles away from the people they're fucking over to in bezel and do all the fuckery that they do.

But if you're in a small village and you've got the purse strings and you're meant to spend the money on making sure that children have somewhere to play and the school's good and they have books and everything else they need.

And if you steal that money or you do something dirty, you've got to look at all those people in the eye every day. And I think that's the big difference is these people making these decisions are so far away.

They can't be touched so they don't give a fuck. So taking it back to more local, it just seems like, again, an obvious thing. - Yeah, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, these people aren't evil because they're sitting here being like, "Ha ha, I get the steal the money of the people."

No, like they probably look at it as like, "I'm not stealing from anybody." Like, this is just general money that I can take and that I'm a good politician. So why shouldn't I get the extra reward that I get?

You know, and again, it becomes a form of thoughtlessness. You know, and that, to me, like, that's really what we're fighting against here. It's not just fiat money, but it's literally what fiat is.

Like, fiat is literally an authoritarian decree towards what is true. And that fundamentally must go against what actual truth is. You know, and so fiat across the board is fundamentally divorced from the natural world because it has to be.

And that's the thing I wanna fight is stop telling yourself what somebody else told you is true and do the work to understand if it's true. You know, and I think that that's where stuff starts to really radicalize 'cause people go, "Oh, wow."

Yeah, maybe stealing actually is wrong and that's like the first thought I need to move forward with as opposed to being told that taxation is okay so people can steal this way so I can justify it because of A, B, C and D reason.

When really it's just, that's not okay. And what can we do about it now that we've established that stealing is wrong and nobody should do it, including government. - It's a hard one to explain though.

I don't know how well you get on with this with like normal friends and family or whether you've managed to orange pill them enough but like I find it really hard. - I am really bad at orange pill.

'Cause like I go off in such a, well I go off in such a philosophical direction. I pretty much lose everybody immediately. And so like I've just really accepted, like if people are interested, we usually have like a pretty great conversation but like I'm not trying anymore.

'Cause like at the end of the day, like I think I'm literally trying to give people gold and they're like, yeah, like get it away from me. And I'm like really like that? You don't deserve to have my gold.

But when people you know, call me up and inquire about it 'cause you know, everybody knows I'm the crazy dick coin guy. I'm always happy to talk. It's just a matter of, I don't know. I'd say like two thirds of the time people just wanna like be like, how do I make money?

And I'm like, I don't know. And the other third of the time people are like, what's going on here? And that's where I actually really get to like do some good work. - Yeah, I've scaled back on the like, this is gonna take away government's power and like all that kind of stuff with most people because the way that goes is, well, you know,

hold on, what's gonna happen? There's gonna be riots in the streets and there's gonna be all this murder everywhere. Like people just like have this, like you said earlier, like people have this image of, well, without governments, it's gonna be mayhem.

And I'm like, it already is fucking mayhem. Like I live in a nice part of England, but there's kids getting stabbed all over the place every fucking week. It is mayhem out there. - I gotta be honest, like I really prefer that America has guns and that we get shot instead of stabbed 'cause like even the stab people is like

pretty fucking hardcore and brutal. And the fact that like that's happening almost as a daily occurrence in England, I don't know, I think more anti-gun people need to take a look at that.

- They need to come over here and just see the gangs with machete's running around fucking knifing each other in the street. Like it's mental and it's like kids 12, 13 years old within a radius of a few miles within the last couple of years, at least 10.

- Man, like the fucking kids are not all right. - It's bad. And so it's like, you know, if you point that out, they're like, well, it's gonna be a nightmare. I'm like, it is a fucking nightmare.

And they're taking off your wages. Like, you really think it's gonna get that much worse. You call the police, you think anything's gonna happen? No. - Well, like here's the other thing is like, is it possible for it to get better?

Like, could we actually address these issues in a meaningful way without needing to use the state? 'Cause like it seems to me that that has been the real problem here. You know, we could go into detail on that.

But I mean, I honestly think that the problem is, it's a very large one of general nihilism. And I understand why kids want to go out and stab other people when they're offered this world, you know?

And it's really sad to say that. But yeah, like you rob the youth of all of their potentiality and the ability to escape from this thing and put them in a pressure cooker. Like, obviously this is what you're going to get, you know?

And it's a, I gotta be honest, like I don't know how the fuck Boomers look at the world and don't weep in agony with what they created. And like, I honestly have never encountered a Boomer that takes responsibility for how the world is today.

Which I think is indicative of what's going on. You know, and I think that's the difference is that Bitcoiners, we want to take responsibility for what's going on. We understand the money system is fucked and we have a real answer for that.

We're not being childish children saying, please, dear, dear Federal Reserve, solve this problem with your 12 brilliant individuals who can solve these crises. Like, it is so fucking immature and childish and stupid and destructive for our children.

And I'm absolutely outraged that this is the solution you, like you want to give power to some of the richest and greediest people to solve this problem. Like, what the fuck is wrong with you?

- Yeah, like you say, it's crazy when you say it out loud. - Yeah. - And it is weird. They don't accept it. And they don't, even things that are like factually correct where you say like, you know, the average amount that someone's having to spend on a house in comparison to their wages is like 20 times what it was, you know,

when they were buying their properties. You like literally show them charts. You actually show them anything like that. And they'll just flat out be like, yeah, well, it's not really like, you know, it's not that hard.

And you're like, no, no, it's really fucking hard, you know, verging on impossible. - Well, and then they like congratulate themselves like, well, I'm just like, I'm just that great of an investor.

It's like, you really don't think that existing in a zero percent interest environment for the last 40 years was part of what gave you that? Nope, nope, I'm just that good. - You could have bought fucking almost anything and sat on it for 40 years and you'd be rolling in it.

- Well, and then the funniest part is is when they know about my experience with Bitcoin, they're just like, oh, you got lucky. It's like, oh, is that? Is that how I held through 10,000 percent gains?

Is I just got lucky? I didn't see something different or unique or powerful here? Nope. (laughs) - Lucky. Yeah, it's very difficult to communicate that. And then like, going back to the younger generation, it's like, they're looking at their lives going forward and they're like, I'm never gonna be able to buy a house.

My job prospects are fucking terrible. Everyone's angry. My life is so much harder than it was from my parents. I'm looking at the life that they had being able to have one person bringing the income in and now it's two working two jobs and you can barely, my fucking heating bill was 900 pounds here the other month.

- What the fuck? - Yeah, I live in like an average house. It's not a big house, like a two and a half bed. Like it was like 900 pounds for my heating and electric. - I will never give up my wood stove.

I am heat sovereign because I have a wood stove and I can cut down fucking trees. - That's beautiful. Yeah, I'd love to have a wood stove, a log burner. We rent now. I had property, that was what I did as my previous work, but I sold everything I had and piled into Bitcoin over the last sort of five years.

- Well, good. That's gonna be a better gain. - I think so and it's a lot less hassle. You know, this is the big thing. It's like, you know, you own Bitcoin and I used to think the best thing you could have was bricks and mortar.

I was like, oh, you own that. And I realized quite quickly, it's like, you don't fucking own it. You own the debt, you have the mortgage, but when everything goes wrong and tenants won't pay you, you can't get them out.

The government won't fucking get them out. And if you try and get them out, they'll come in a rescue. So what you have is a massive liability. And yeah, sure you can get some gains, but it's a big noose around your neck.

- Well, so if you don't pay your yearly tribute to the government as well, they can steal it whenever they want. And here in the United States, we're privileged enough that I think there's like 35 different states that like, so if you owe like $1,000 in taxes and no pay it, they steal your house and then they keep

the fucking profits from it too, you know? It's just, you know, to me, like, here's the thing with government was like, I just sincerely don't understand how you look at this and can justify any of this behavior.

You know, like the moment that we remove government agent or that like, that's their job, we like, oh my God, this is like a horrific moral abnormality that like should never exist. But the moment that we say, oh yeah, like, he's a government agent, so they can steal children, murder people, like do whatever they want.

It's just, it's so bananas. - Yeah, it's fucked. Well, Eric, I could sit here and have another five beers and slag off the government literally all day with you, but you've got other things you've got to get on within life and kids and everything.

So yeah, I mean, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. - Yeah, I think it's funny how quickly, you know, we'll just start riffing and then we're like, oh, now we went by. (laughs) - It happens quick, but yeah, we didn't really do an intro at the beginning, but I think most people listening to this

will know of you and your writing, but maybe if you could just do a bit of a chill of like where people can find you and your writing, that would be cool. - Sure, so my name's Eric Kason, you know, the place that you can find a lot of my stuff is just out on Twitter and that's just my handle, E-R-I-K-C-A-S-O-N on Twitter.

I also have a website, it's cryptosoverty.org. I have a series of different philosophical essays regarding Bitcoin there. And I will soon be releasing a book with a Bitcoin magazine specifically.

You know, it'll be titled Crypto of Sovereignty and it's gonna host many of the articles that I've written over the last five years. So I'm excited to get that out and have more dialogue about it 'cause, yeah, you know, I'm personally realizing that we all share in a pretty big mission here.

And to me, really trying to educate people to understand why this is philosophically significant is really important to me. So if you have any interest in that sort of information or dialogue, please feel free to check out my essays and yeah, shoot me a comment.

I'm always happy to chat too. - Awesome, yeah, well, as I said, your writing has been incredible over the last few years and I'd definitely suggest anyone who's listening to go and have a read through.

And when is the book gonna be coming out? Have you got any sort of idea on that? - We don't have a hard deadline. I'm working with an editor right now. I was hoping to have it out before the Bitcoin conference, but I don't think that'll happen.

So for now, I'm just kind of saying it's summer. - Okay, audio book for us dyslexic folks. - You know what I'm thinking? I'm actually gonna try to do my own podcast series where like I'm gonna read all the essays, but then I almost wanna like, I wanna get a guest who's gonna like read through

the whole essay and then like we'll have a show that we make about that specific chapter and essay and then have like a more robust dialogue about it. So we'll see if I can get around to it.

I'm a busy dad and I got a large property and a lot of work here. So we'll see if I get to it. - Yeah, well, that'd be cool. And audio books always feel a better if the author's reading them as well.

If you haven't managed the time, I always feel it sort of comes across better. - Nice, yeah. Well, I'm gonna, I'm hoping I'll get the time and energy to do it, but we'll see. - All right, cool.

Well, Eric, thanks again. Really, it was a pleasure speaking to you and hopefully do it again in the future. - Absolutely, really enjoyed it. - Cheers, mate. I'll speak to you soon. - All right, be well.