"You cant eat sats." Bitcoin show with Ben Gunn

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Let's go!

Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah! Oh! The greatest scam in history. Let's get it! Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

All right, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?

Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Welcome back, everyone. I've got a very special interview for you today.

This is one that I actually got to record in person, which is very rare. I haven't done it for a long time. And it's with Ben Gunn. You will know him from Bitcoin Twitter. I had the pleasure of meeting him in person.

I drove right out into the middle of a forest with no one around for miles and miles trekked up the side of a cliff. And we recorded this outside at the top of the cliff with birds chirping, trees swaying and the dogs fucking around at our feet.

It was a really special one. And Ben is a very special Bitcoiner. He is not laughing. He is really building. He is really thinking about how we move this space forward. And I am very, very happy to see that we have him on our side.

Ben did contact me after the interview just to say that he wanted to put the record straight and say his deepest dive he's ever done is to 55 metres. And I think in the interview, he says 60.

I'm sure no one would notice this, but he wanted to be upfront and honest. So yeah, we talked about diving, we talked about Bitcoin, we talked about all sorts of strategy to keep yourself and families safe.

And most importantly, we talked about building out these mesh Devels, building out these pleb networks and working together to build a better world, to get away from this fiat fuckery and to do things properly.

I really hope you enjoy the interview. And if you have any questions, please reach out. Before we dive into the interview, I just want to thank Coin4UK for sponsoring this show. They've been with me almost from the very beginning.

And they are a Bitcoin only UK exchange. As many of you know, and I say it in every single episode, if you can buy KYC free Bitcoin, do it. If you can't, or you just don't care enough yet, I know some of you don't.

And this is a journey and people change as they move further and further down the rabbit hole. If you are going to buy from an exchange, you really need to make sure it's a good one. Coin4UK do proof of reserves.

They have done for a very long time. And I think they're actually the first company to ever do it in the space. They also have an awesome team. They're Bitcoin only. And they have a great UX.

A new app has just been released. So if you're onboarding newbs or just want to stack a few sets, you can do that. And if you use the code in the show notes, you will get a 30% discount off your fees.

Enjoy the show. Right, mate. Well... Are we on? We're on. Firstly, thanks for taking me here. Thank you so much for coming. I don't get a lot of visitors. By choice. And yeah. Thank you very much for making the trip.

It's quite a trip out. For anyone listening, you might hear the birds. We are at the top of a hill mountain, it feels like. Kind of like a wooded cliff face. And we're at the top. We're on the table top.

It's normally much worse weather. It's normally much more exposed, but we're outside in the sun. It's got a fantastic day. It's fucking stunning. All I can see around me is trees and trees and trees and fields and rolling hills.

And the dogs are here fucking around having a lovely time. It's almost as though the world isn't on fire. Yeah, it is actually. You can't see any smoke or screams here any screams. Yeah, this is it.

This is where I've spent the last couple of years on and off, but spent a lot of time here. Mostly on my own. Got some help in, but kept it very quiet. And this is the first time I've decided to come and speak to Bitcoin Twitter, to Bitcoiners.

Yeah, I've got to tell what to talk about. Well, I'll start with what you've done here is fucking mental. We're sat outside a huge, what would you call this, just like a unit, like a warehouse.

Yeah, it's a port of steel frame building. It's pretty typical in the UK, like countryside. You see the big farm building. It's a 16-metre-long version of one of them. I saw a mill in it and we're dropping timber on the site, on the estate, and then we're dragging it up to this plot and we're milling it.

We're grading the timber and we're selling it directly to customers. Didn't mean to get here this way. It's a complete mistake. Bought the place. I came back from abroad. Used to work abroad.

Used to be an ex-pac. Came back. Bought it as a bit of a vanity thing. And it was told pretty much straight away. Just wanted to follow you. I want a forest sort of thing. I saw the listing.

It wasn't like house price costs. It was pretty ballsy. I wasn't in a very good frame of mind. I did a number of bad investments. This one included at that time. A few months after I bought it, a very smart local man in the know.

A forestry contractor said, you're in big trouble here. You think you've bought a cartoon forest and you haven't. You've bought a crop that hasn't been harvested. And there's so many houses that have been built around the roads in the local area to try and get this timber out in the way that modern machinery does.

You're going to upset a lot of people and you're in trouble. How do you get the timber out? And the problem is, everyone's probably thinking is, well, why don't you just leave it in and leave this stuff in place?

But the problem is, just like corn, just like wheat, this stuff is planted to be taken out. And it's grown to its maximum. It doesn't just keep going up and up and up. It just grows to a maturity, what they call a climax canopy.

And then they start to fall. They've got a very small root plate. They're on a hill and we're in... It's fucking steep. It's steep. Like, it's steep as shit. Like, we just walked up for two minutes and I was shattered.

Like, it's fucking steep. And so you're having to pull these trees. You're going to have to take them down and then you... So we walked up, that's what that winch is for. There's like a massive winch.

Yeah, there's a digger, a large excavator digger, like a stony bitson style, JCB. But all the engine power has been rerouted into hydraulics that pull a winching system. Very simple. It's like a kind of a pop-up, not disposable, collapsible ski chair, lift type thing.

But instead of people, it's trees. So you're felling down on the hill, down the bottom of the hill. And then you're dragging up with that hydraulic power, a bit like a fishing line, dragging it in a fish.

And then it's flopping up onto a road and then that's being dragged up to the sawmill where we are here. How heavy are these fish? A couple of tons up to five to eight tons. Shit. And it's all above, it's all quite high up, it's all sort of 20 feet high.

And I've done a lot of different jobs in my life. Like an eclectic background, different jobs. And this is the one, like I said to you before, this is the one that, of all of them, if you do everything right, there is still this huge chaos where you can get really badly hurt having done nothing wrong.

All the other jobs I've done in the past, you can still get hurt, but it's usually as you deviate from the syllabus or from the protocol or from the SOPs. This one, you can catch a cold here and it could not be your fault.

So it's pretty scary, but it's got to be done. If we don't take the trees down, they will come down on their own accord in a storm in one go. They won't be able to be harvested because it won't be profitable to clear them up when they're in that state.

And then how do you put money back onto the hill to regenerate? And then if you don't regenerate, there's no root structure in the soil and you're on a hill and the soil starts to move.

So it's important to get this stuff out economically because you need to have a surplus by the time you finish when you sell your timber to get enough money to buy the saplings, replant and do the weeding and make sure that they take especially on a plot like this.

Bad enough if it was on a field that didn't take. But if you're on this hill and the trees we replant don't take, we've got some major higher order effects and people down the bottom. So super important job, initially didn't opt into it, didn't know what I was getting into, but that's the way it went.

And at the same time I was realizing that I was getting into something I did not really understand. I thought I was buying an asset, I was really buying a liability. Right. And it was like okay, here we go.

And then COVID, which kind of played into my hand but only by attacking this as opposed to trying to get rid of it or roll it to someone else or cheat. If it got to a point where it was like I'm worried about this, this could go really bad, what do I do, do I sell it?

It got to a point where COVID closed everything down, attack it. You've got the time, Bitcoin hodling isn't an activity, that thing will take its time to work out. Let's come and attack this.

So I came back into the woods on a bit of a mission on my own, didn't have a huge budget. Got my chainsaw tickets and started felling trees and doing the applications for permission to do a little bit more of the forestry on site and just kept hammering, just kept going.

Just doing little days, get rained on, get in your cab, go home. Next day, come back. Another tree, another tree. A bit of a win on the application, bit of a win on the, something happens, something out there does well for you and just keep going.

Started to sell some firewood, started to sell some mill timber after we bought the mill and started to accumulate some surpluses and then these manual jobs that you would be insane to do in any other way.

Now are done by hydraulic vehicles that we've bought. We're sat next to a transit van that's come out of the profits. So we do pretty well and we do well on the money. We can make a profit because normally land owners sell into saw mills, saw mills selling to being cute, being cute selling to your man.

And we just advertise on eBay. You just go direct. You just go direct. It's not illegal. No, it's just smart. It's just smart. It looks smart now, but when I was hacking away with the chainsaw on my own, it just looked like a crazy man had gone crazy.

But you've got to go through that because you would have learned a shitload doing it. And also you wouldn't have got to where you are now without doing it. And so it takes time. I think with any good long term business, you have a couple of years of fucking shit and just slog and just nightmare stuff.

The wall of worry. Yeah, and you just got to battle through it and you either survive it or you don't. And if you come out the other side, which seems like you're starting to now, then that's a beautiful thing.

Yeah. I've got this feeling now that the back of it's been broken. Yeah. And there was something in me, a ceiling in me that broke here as well. I definitely asked questions of me and it made me really not just work and get off my backside for the first time in a while, but to think, to really sit down and attack this intellectually.

How are we going to solve this problem? And we ended up naming the business Citadel Timber. Citadel is a bit, it's become a Bitcoin theme. It is also a stoic theme. And it's this idea that you have an inner fortress that you are in control of and you defend mentally.

And this was a nice place to sort of apply those concepts in a place that you kind of own and can benefit from. The Citadel idea is that it can take hits. You can take complaints from the locals.

You can take regulatory barriers and skull doggery and problems with the site, problems with the logistics. And you can, by adapting to that, you actually then have a much stronger business.

And it's exactly the same with the Citadel Tower. It can take strikes from the outside and it just tightens up that brickwork. Everything that we've had has a problem here that's been attacked, has been defeated and then brought back into the business.

So a lot of local complaints, forces a legal procedure that we adapt and apply to properly. It becomes approved and then those complaints are basically like a disease that we've got immunity to.

It stops. So it's an anti-fragile project, I like to think. And the good news about the anti-fragile project is it changes your scope at each time that you get a win. You're not now scrapping around just trying to sell firewood locally.

You get an extra bit of scope. You get to do a bit more scale. And with the extra scale, you get a bit of money. And with the money, you can get an extra bloke in for a few days and give you a push.

That's how it's been done. Yeah, it's bootstrapped completely. Completely bootstrapped. No debt, no grant. My own capital to purchase the land, obviously. But then at that point it was derelict capital.

It was not considered particularly interesting. It was like, "Ooh, okay, good luck, mate." I didn't know what I was getting into. I haven't even climbed on it. I bought it as a climbing car, I've not even climbed on it yet.

It's just been too busy with the forestry. You hit the dogs in the background. You're squeaking. We've got two dogs here. We've got my dog who doesn't see many others, especially not the size of Loki.

It's like a little toy slash sex toy. That's what he's thinking, isn't it? I think there's something amorous going on. It is weird, but we've had to separate Sam. He's gone up on the transit van in the Sim then.

He's a little bit too amorous with it. It can't be that good a host. It's considered rude. It's nice to just be out in nature. You were talking about the climbing thing earlier, looking at it, what you showed me.

It looks like it would be amazing for that. From what you've said to me about your plans, it seems like you've got a lot of ideas outside of just, I say, just. But the timber side, it seems like you've got a lot of things that you want to do here in other places and expand.

Is that something that happened? Because the other thing you mentioned was you're here every day with your headphones on just listening to audio books plugged into all the podcasts, listening to everything.

So you're just like a sponge soaking in all this information and you're alone on the top of a hill around nature and nobody. There's fucking nobody here. I can't stress enough. There's nobody here for miles and miles.

So is that what's then forcing or not forcing but guiding your decisions? You're taking this information in and then you're getting ideas and going, right, I want to build this business in a certain way because.

The answer is now, everything that's been a success on the business has appeared to me. It's not something that I've driven towards is the answer. The timber side, at one point, wouldn't have been viable.

The timber prices were below break even for what we're doing now and it just wouldn't have made sense. You drive, you just attack the part of it that's giving you the biggest headache and it breaks for you.

And the bigger the problem, it converts into the biggest asset. So the timber was a big problem, regulatory boundaries, we needed licenses and we needed a plan. They wouldn't give you a license without a proper plan, once you plan.

You get a plan together, you get the license and then the timber, which was then a liability, it's going to all fall over and it's a big problem. Watch out, legal, et cetera, is now a business.

You've got tons and tons of the best timber in the UK because you've cracked the regulatory so you attacked. The thing that was giving you the headache and underneath that was a reward. I didn't know I was going to get into timber. I didn't know I was going to buy a sawmill.

It's just the project. When you get an opportunity and you seize it, it creates three, four more opportunities. The sawmill business begets a carpentry business, begets a construction business.

The amenity mentioned is what comes after we've dealt with the immediate. It's a triage situation here. The timber that's overstudded needs to come out and that has to be dealt with first.

It's been dealt with and we're going to profitably and sensibly take timber out. What comes after this period of time in the forest, regeneration of the side of the hill. We're just literally going to plant oaks and let them grow. 50, 60 year project and then you have a mature forest.

Gorgeous. Why give good quality word? Why allow people on a beautiful site where you can do the things you want to do? Why give that to people who are attacking us? Basically, yeah.

Why allow these fiat fuckers to enjoy something that you've worked hard on and that you want to be a generational thing and you're looking to do things properly? When you've got a shitload of Bitcoiners who have the same views or very similar most of the time,

generally got the same goal, generally looking towards more freedom, generally looking towards strong families, looking towards a network of trust and like working together rather than just everyone fucking ripping each other off.

And so I like that approach of just like, no, fuck them. They don't deserve to have anything from me. And so I can see that happening. I can see like, you know, we're starting to see more and more Bitcoiners in the UK who are thinking along the same lines and it's not just our number go up.

It's like, no, let's actually build something here. Let's actually make sure that whatever goes on in the world where we look after each other. And places like this are like so key for that. You need timber.

Yeah. You need timber. You need it for construction. You need places where people can come out and chill and think and spend some time. It's got multiple uses. It's got layers of use that don't compete with each other.

One side is a unreal, this is more like a wine cellar than it is like a real business. It's a wine cellar that was sold because no one could get in and access the wine. That's really what it is. Once that's done and exhausted and the restaurant that you put on top of it is ran out of wine.

After that, it becomes an amenity plot. And you're absolutely right. Why battle with people? This project has been one in which you're basically fighting with an inertia outside of people that don't know where their products come from.

They don't respect the values or the method of production. They're ignorant. I'm sorry. I say it can be a pejorative word, but it's also a word and you don't know what you're talking about.

The aggregate feeling about dropping forests down, people that have not done it, me included before I become full-time in this was I don't really know what they are and I don't really know which animals are.

The animals like some grey squirrels, pests and which ones are animals I'm trying to increase the biodiversity on the land. These people aggregate their opinion into a regulatory system that then punishes the person who's trying to give services to the market.

And oh no, surprise surprise. They're a victim of their own success and now we have supply chain issues. And I'm in a situation where I have control over these resources. It's not a lot of resource.

I don't own a, I'm not a billionaire. I don't own an immediate empire. I just have a little bit of timber that no one wanted anyway and now I've got an option on who I can give it to and in which direction it can go into.

If you call timber a seed investment because it's very hard to acquire, you can't just click your fingers and print it. It takes 60 years to get the stuff that we're sat on and it's very good quality so it can't be replicated in the short run.

You can plant more and there's an unlimited supply but timber has gotten an elastic supply curve, fair enough. And I'm in a lucky situation where we've had a windfall and we're in another situation where the environment that I've been trying to do this in has been quite belligerent

through the planning which allows and amplifies anonymous complaint and skull-duggery and spitefulness. And when you get to the end of that battle and you've got something to hand out and you have some discretion on where it can go

and you've got the time to sit up here and think about it. And you took the risk and now you're in a situation where it's like, right, who do I give this away to?

Well, top of my list was all the local workers. There's an upper tier here of a pensioned age, public sector, comfortable people who aren't directly connected with the land and don't go by way of favour day to day.

They're just completely indemnified against food and heat and safety and they have these huge opinions and then all of a sudden they need timber. And it's like, right, you've stood in my way all the way. Complained.

Complained, spread in some cases misinformation for spite and also because you've distracted, because you've been locked in your house and you're old and you're scared about getting sick.

And now we've got no timber. We've got no way to build. And I've got all these people in my life who've basically the wreckage of this mass stupidity in the form of depression, drug and substance dependency. Not just locals, I'm talking about people in my cohort from when I was a young man, school, age people, not doing very well.

Self-employed, shut down over the lockdowns and now wrecked. And I feel like funding their business. To go back to the timber, I think that it is good money in a way because where Bitcoin has the ultimate totable addressable market, anybody who wants to reserve their wealth.

Timber has a total addressable market. It's not as broad as bitcoins. It's not even as broad as fiat or gold, but it's pretty broad. You can put this stuff into products. You can use them to make signs, do art. You can use it for wood fuel. It's a heat.

You can actually, in an emergency situation, stay very warm. You can make charcoal. We can make biochar. We can do construction timber. So it's got a very, very broad use. And that helps when you're in an uncertain world because it exposes itself positively to uncertain change.

I know timber is very useful in a million situations and the world's looking pretty uncertain. So yes, we own Bitcoin. But I also like to know that I've got something in my own name and on our plot that was surrounded by that I could literally now make a shelter.

Yeah, yeah. Right. Well, this thing that is behind us that you've built, I'm pretty impressed by as well. Like, you did this what? You and one other guy? Yep. And it's fucking huge. Big still be...

No health and safety, unfortunately. But when you're doing things in your own name, it's on your terms. I'm not a risky person. Mm-hmm. Still thought about it a lot, but yeah, it took a calculated decision. In my own name, in a philosophical vacuum, there's no one here to tell me I couldn't.

Mm-hmm. And with two blokes we put this in, the steelwork, that is, the mccarno. Yeah. And then we had gangster lads here to put the concrete in. But we were bringing it up in tractor loads.

Mm-hmm. It's the most insanely inefficient way to do it. But what it did was it bought us a place to process timber. Yeah. And now you don't have these huge, round, five ton wet logs to drag through a village that is already a little bit anti-change, anti-noise.

Yeah. Yeah. And now we can break timber down into... It mark it up financially into boards and beams that people would want to buy for their own construction. But it also makes it lighter. You can take it off the hill without wrecking the roads, without creating too much noise, and you can still make a bit of money.

Mm-hmm. And that's been, up to now, that's been the, what you call it, not no man's land, kind of agreement. The ongoing agreement with the local guys is, "Okay, do a bit more work up here, we'll let you be a little bit more active,

and you'd normally be allowed on a forest." And for that, you're not bothering us quite so much, and it's not so much of a disturbance. And it's gone so well. What will change is we're going to pick the volumes up, and we'll be doing a bit more with our timber.

I'm looking at other people in Bitcoin, Twitter. I'm looking for what they call in MBA school, owning the vertical, where you just keep going up the chain by a carpentry, by land to develop houses on, using your timber. And I am looking for Bitcoiners and Bitcoin use cases.

Or at a minimum, people are just sympathetic to how society ran and what we could agree on, basically, from two years ago and back. Which is, you can't bully medicine into my arm, and so on. I'm not going to go down the list, but it's just this insane dementia that's descended on population UK.

I'm not forgiving them something that I've broke a bolic to make. I'd rather give it to someone who's been wrecked, an innocent person who's been wrecked and wants to work hard. I'd rather it house their dog if they make it back up, or whatever.

Yeah, it's also something nice about you're literally growing from the ground up, and that's what Bitcoiners are going to have to do, is that there's this mess everywhere else, everything else is on fire. It's getting worse, and so we need to build a parallel society,

something that is separate from that madness, and we need to have it on good foundations. We need to have it with good people, with morals, and actually build from the start, and wood seems like a nice place to start with that,

with something that you can literally build with, build houses, build whatever furniture, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It seems like a really good start, and then to expand that out, and to bring in other Bitcoiners to work on.

I've just listened to him on his second interview on Real Vision, and he's talking about, "Oh, well, if it's electricity, it doesn't travel well, and if it's on the battery life, and even the best batteries degrade 5% a year,

well, Michael, what about timber?" I can take timber down here, cut it in the round wood, seal it with log seal and get it off the ground, and it is good for 45 years, and we're low time preference people.

I don't have a huge amount of appetite to buy things month to month, as you can see from a proper feral plant. Don't spend a lot of money on myself, and I can wait, and let's see where this timber needs to go.

Does it need to go over to Mr. Untackgrove over there to make a barn in a play of effort that eventually comes back to me on my kids? Yeah. And while I've still got that discretion, I feel like using it.

Yeah. Well, they're the people you want to be working with, and there's similar sort of ideas of building a network of people to build great stuff. And like, it seems that that's happening more and more, which is really good to see, and it's like, when I do this Meastodel monthly show

to talk about these kind of ideas, it's because I think that's now the most important thing. I think anyone who's been around for a while, we know pretty confidently that the investments we've made in Bitcoin are pretty fucking solid.

Yeah. And we've placed our bets, and we are happy with those bets. But it's not a lot of good if we're right, and then we can't go anywhere, spend any money, do anything. You can't eat sat.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You can't eat sat. You can't eat sat. Yeah. I've tried. It's really painful. No, I'm going to joke. You can't eat sat. What do you do when your services have been captured?

It's hard to swallow pills for Bitcoiners. This investment is not an investment, but this investment is going to start asking questions of its owner. The services have been captured. In the UK, at the moment, they are jaw-boning and threatening health service, being revoked for people that don't take certain medical decisions now.

So we've got another pill to swallow. We've lost a lot of our hierarchy of need. We've given it over to the middle, and then it's been captured, unfortunately, and it's a serious problem.

What do you do with a bridge that's now got a really mean troll under it? You've only got a few options. Fight the troll, which is a charge of the light brigade and madness. And wrong, because you know, all you're doing is meeting them on the ground of their choosing when you choose to be violent back to people.

But sometimes you've got to defend yourself, but very in these situations, you're normally fighting on a public square look at Australia. So you get pushed into a situation where you have to defend yourself like that.

The only other option is to build another bridge, and if it ends up being a bridge that's not as good for a while, and it ends up just being something we can get by on, you're starving a troll, you're starving a troll, and you're undermining its will to dominate you with violence.

You say, right, we've got doctors that have been laid off, we've got doctors that have been castigated and been not disbarred, but have taken off the register. And their lives have been ruined, and you've got people that now don't feel comfortable using a centralized service,

because if you come in unconscious, you wake up vaccinated with Bell's palsy, there's no court in the land that will listen to your problems. That's now a new coincidence of want.

How long is it going to be before I call a friend who's a doctor, or used to be a doctor, and is now a janitor, to ask what this rash means, or something like that. And that's like an economic grey market for a while.

So we've got to build a bridge. All right, that's the most serious to talk about health, that's the hardest to replace, it's the one that everyone worries about, and the things are first.

But picnic benches? Yeah, sat on one's face. You know, it's very nice. You know, you could be a bit of a low-key activist in a way, and say, you know, it's the same kind of protest of a, you know, by British, by American.

Don't buy Chinese, and that turned out to be true. But by Bitcoin, you know, by Bitcoin, our money goes into the pockets of people who have the same values as us. These values are important because when uncertain situations come around the corner and there's no precedent, these are the values that we fall back on to decide what to do.

So when you've got opposite values to somebody, and you've been asked to share services with them, you create an enormous schism, and it obviously ends in physical confrontation. Which is the last thing you want.

So the last thing you want is the first thing they want, because on their top trumpet card, violence is their best play. They haven't got intelligence, they haven't got ethics, they haven't got any tomorrow reasonable reason to be pushing things into someone else's arm.

They've got ignorance, and they've got force of will, and violence. But that can only go so far, and this is just the unteenth iteration of the remnants, as it's, you know, starting to be called, pushing back on the middle.

Eventually winning, as far as history teaches us, but with a lot of casualties, I'm hoping that this time round is a lot more bloodless. And then it doesn't go into that, it doesn't end to the violence fear, I suspect it will for a lot of people.

It seems that way. I hope it doesn't. It's the last thing we want to be doing. Yeah, it definitely is the last thing that we want to be doing, because we're playing their game. We'll lose.

Of course we will. We'll lose. Of course we will. You're going to play British Bulldogs with people who are all padded up, and have got like pepper spray in massive 2 litre cans. And you just go with your nan, and a placard.

And wave it in anyone's faces, though they don't know what you're saying, that, you know, first do no harm, which is something that's been in medicine for hundreds of thousands of years. It's suspended in 2021, because we've got, I think it's a 51% attack.

It's a baby boomer, older and rich, and I'm getting not any healthier. I'm scared. 51% attack. And all the services have been captured and co-opted for those people. We should not be introducing medical procedures that take away life and health from young people, and trying to gift that through to older people.

It's obscene. It's a theme as well, isn't it? Millennials, the way that they have had to live is very different to their parents, and their parents' parents. In terms of like, you know, we all know that the cost of purchasing a property is like, in terms of like wage, it's crazy.

Like it's so different. You'd have like 25 year old parents who go, get married, have a kid, buy a house, one of them's working. They'd survive quite comfortably.

Now it's both working two jobs, and they're mortgaged up to the hill, and they're living paycheck to paycheck, if they've managed to buy a house at all, which most of them haven't. And so what that is, is old vampires stealing the blood of the youngers, when they've already had a fucking good time, and it's just that again.

It's not just wealth now, it's health. It's actually, it's wealth, health and happiness that's being stolen. Health redistribution. Yeah, wealth redistribution with inflation and tax, health redistribution with services that benefit the elderly.

What have we done? We've saved Mrs. Miggins. Congratulations. We haven't, by the way, 80% of hospitalizations are vaccinated people in the UK today. So slow clap for that. What have we got?

We've got spiking suicides, spiking substance problems, mental health. It's a demoralization campaign. Yeah, it's basically putting young people through a wood chipper, and then spreading that over to fertilize old dead plants that have already had a great life.

It's completely wrong, and the thing is we are getting ourselves mixed up. There's a conversation going on out there that is being made on a utilitarian framing, which is the greater good.

We're all doing this, we're all in this together, but it isn't actually in the greater good. We've burned more healthy men and women years in the reaction. So they don't get to have the moral high ground, and they don't get to have the greater good argument.

All they get is the irrational fear expressed through services backed by violence, and that's exactly where we're up to right now. Yeah, what I'm thinking is that a lot of people in that age bracket, younger generations are fully going along with it, loving it, virtue signaling, blah, blah, blah.

You know, not our sort of people, they're doing their thing. They're probably just not aware they haven't thought it through. They're going along with the brainwashing. But there is also a large percentage of the country who are feeling that they have, like you said, been put through a wood chipper.

They are feeling, "I've been fucked over here, and I was fucked over with the finances, now I've been fucked over with my health." As time goes on, what I'm hoping is that people will look at what you're doing, what Joel's doing, what people who are trying to build communities, build services, do things properly,

they'll be able to look at the two different types of people. They go, "Right, there's bitcoin is over here, they're building a second bridge, they're ignoring that troll, they're building these citadels, they're creating a society where people respect one another,

they have certain rules, they stick by and it's a much better society, and it runs parallel to the one that I'm in." Well, do I want to stay in the one that I'm in and continue to be fucking raped on every front?

Or do I want to go over with these guys and actually live a proper fucking life? I'll take a lower quality of life, I'm going to say that like a harder existence. I'll go 20 years back in my day-to-day to make sure that the proceeds of that go into something at an ethical level I subscribe to.

My major conflict of interest on this plot, and I don't have many, it doesn't move around a lot this plot, I don't have a lot of conflicts, one of them is, if I'm being honest, the timber is going into the hands of people who I'm not.

They're strangers, it's been sold out onto the public network, and I don't need to now. I've got my costs covered, and I don't need to sell much more above that. Where do we put the timber?

It's all very interesting, we've come under attack. I feel like I've been attacked through the system, and I don't want to put that economic value back into the same network that's tried to take it away.

I've got people in my life who are casualties of it all, and I'd rather back them. Because you're effectively attacking yourself, because you're feeding the beast. You're feeding your captor, it's like pushing prison food through the bars towards the prison cart.

How long do you go doing that before you start taking responsibility for where you are? If you're feeding something that's got its foot on you, and the weight of that keeps pressing down in unfair ways, it's kind of on you.

And the other thing is, even if that was a sustainable situation that could just keep going on, and the world wasn't collapsing, and the debt structures that have built this weren't collapsing, we'd still need to build a second bridge, because this other one's collapse, it's going to break.

And when it does, just to have a few simple things like a firewood root and a construction vertical, and something to get us going, maybe just to make a little bit of air, a little bit of financial breathing room for a family who's been stitched up,

could be enough. It doesn't necessarily need to be a fifth gen cancer wing that we replace first. It can just be, let's reset the associations we have to where we can just sanely agree with the person we're doing business with.

I mean, let's agree that there's been some sort of fracture. I'm not going to sit in the middle and argue who's fault it is and who's right and wrong. But I am not pouring in wealth and time and my life into something that I am bone deep against.

I can't. And then by doing that, I've taken all my anxiety away, because I've limited all the possibilities in which I've got a rifle in my hand, pushing it into someone else's back, pushing them into a camp, or joining a service that I don't agree with because I need to pay my mortgage.

I think of all those police officers in Australia, in the UK, who have to suit up in riot gear and do a job that makes them feel like shit. It must do for the majority. It must do. You're obviously going to have some power hungry, you fucking ask ourselves.

Well, you've got psychopaths. But the majority, the majority will, I think the majority will also, you go along with what everyone else is doing. So they'll quickly become acclimatised and think they're doing the right thing.

But there's certainly going to be ones there who are hating their life. I know doctors here who are hating their life right now, because they're like, I don't agree with anything that's happening.

I fucking don't agree with this shit, but I have to. So then you have the question, you go, well, why don't you leave? Well, I've gone through Metaschool School. Yeah, sunk cost effect. And I have a family, a mortgage.

They're at private school or wherever they are. I've got all these costs. How am I going to then just drop that? What am I going to do? I'm a doctor. Like, what am I going to do? And I can understand it.

I feel sorry for them. Oh, they're a doctor. Is it doctor of the asset or doctor of the protocol? Because a doctor is someone who runs towards someone who's sick. It's a problem solver. They've got subject knowledge and they have an independent decision-making process that's done on the best intentions.

Ancient agreement. Yeah. I'll put my body before you. You do your best. Don't hurt me. Do your best. If you don't do it, good Samaritan law kicks in. That's a doctor. That's a doctor. Yeah.

Same way that if my license expires and we're driving license, I can still go and work the collection used right. So there are doctors out there. The people that are left are kind of like parish priests with the ethics portion ripped out that dispense doctrine.

Yeah. From a very, very high incentive layer, maybe at the Westminster level. Let's roll out this experimental jab. That's not really what a doctor would be doing on the ground level if we had a healthcare system that we had 20 years ago, which was slightly more decentralized.

And it made me think of something. These aren't failures, in my opinion. I want everyone to listen, who's listening to know that I don't think that there are good and bad people. I think there are people who find themselves in situations in their life from a combination of bad luck and bad decisions where they don't have a choice.

There is no ethical case that can be made to a mortgaged policeman. It doesn't exist. He loves his kids. He'd bash your head in and mine and throw us both in jail if it meant that his kid got dinner on the table.

Now, right wrong or indifferent, that's the situation we find ourselves in. They're not rotten people. They have found themselves in a situation where they've been given a choice whether to be rotten on someone else's behalf or living in a way that they currently can't stomach.

Some people understand that if you stop and stand and fight now, you won't be asked to do more and more to pray things. I want to make the people with this timber and with everything else in my time and my life more independent of me.

Everyone who works for me here has a plan, a redundancy plan. You're a miller now, but you're a timber framer and I'm going to make you redundant. I'm going to make you so independent and so not in need of my pay that you then spin off and you're your own entity.

And they're the people who can make ethical decisions. They can afford to say fuck off. Yeah. And I think that's something that I'm trying to do here now that changed since I started, is that I'm going to try and make people independent of that out there.

That's the fuck you ability. It's not fuck you money. It's just like, I can say fuck you and I'm going to do what I want because I'm independent. What fuck you money? Yeah. But you don't need the money bit.

Yeah. You just need to be able to survive. Yeah. Which a lot of people, a lot of people, it's that whole anti-fragile thing. It's like, you look at successful people. You think, oh you know, they've got the house, they've got the car, they do the holidays, they've got the lifestyle.

Like they've got all the things, all the shit. They go into John Lewis and just buy more shit, you know, bread makers and whatever. But they're actually very fragile because if they lost their job tomorrow, generally, within six weeks, eight weeks, ten weeks, even a successful person, they're fucked.

They're going to eat you alive. They're fucked. Yeah. They've got no contingency plan, they've got no savings, most of them. They're not actually insulated from issues within the financial system if we had a real crash tomorrow.

Enter the zombie theory, this idea, this archetype. Call people zombies, it's a pejorative term, but it's true. There's an undead living, moving entity out there that is just mindless. It's dropped below the level of human sentience and it's just going through the motions.

Up, work, paycheck, pay bills out on a Friday night. It's locked, it's like there's no way out. If they stop, the mortgage stops, then they lose the house. It's collapsed, it's like a shark has to keep swimming forward or it drowns.

It still drowns, it needs to keep moving forward. I think it's a psychological problem where people can't stop and reflect. They have to keep moving through situations because they can't bear what they've done in them.

They have to keep going. Is that a Western thing? A lot of people are coming back to this meditation and reflection and thinking. It seems to be quite a Bitcoin thing, maybe because the sort of things that we're thinking about are pretty crazy sometimes and we have to sit and reflect and go, "Am I mental?

Am I mental? We're taking longer shots on average than people in the fear clam world. We're taking longer shots and when you take a longer shot you need to aim, take longer to aim. You need better skill and that takes a period of reflection.

Why am I here in a bloody forest? And as a Bitcoiner with Bitcoiner incentives and low time preference and long time horizons, why would I dunk all my round wood timber into the sawmills and make a small profit?

Well, that's the change. That's what Bitcoin did here. It said, "Hey, why are you letting go of all that super duper total addressable market product when they're just going to use it to build stuff that basically oppresses you?"

And they don't get too dramatic about it, but if I just sell it indiscriminately to anybody, I'm going to get the results of what anybody believes back at me. Which generally right now, the average...

Scary. Yeah, it's fucking weird. I'm scared. It's fucking weird. I've never felt like that here. In a way, I'm scared. Don't get me wrong. I'm not like teeth chattering, but I'm anxious. I'm cogent of a growing feeling that I am the meat in the meal.

That like, with enough of these people and with a strong enough disincentive, they could really hurt you. Yeah. And I've been, I've been not super old, but I've been alive long enough to see this gun that hurt me and my friends.

I've got people who've gone through into the military, died, bullshit war. That even makes sense. That's one of your things you've done previously, your military man. Military man. Very, very truncated and short military career as a result of injury.

My libertarianism coming later, so at that time I didn't really have any politics. I just signed up, pressed the Queen's ceiling into my palm and decided to go off. And I just got unlucky and fell by the wayside and that was my first career.

Came out with it without a degree into the market early twenties, what are you going to do? And went into an investment bank. There was an army colonel, big posh fella. And he was placing captain level infantry officers into like back office parts of the investment banks, just like good organizers and people with a bit of grip.

Blah, blah, blah. I didn't have my degree, I was out of my training and I was a bit of a fish out of water. And it just happened that one of the banks was looking for a more junior role. They took the military training I had done as a proxy for my degree and I passed the technical exam.

It's just like numeracy and literacy and just make sure you're not a complete fucking reader. Yeah, and then I got dragged in as a trader assistant. You basically just coffee boy for people doing trades in interest rates.

So that I probably puts my first edge of the edge of the rabbit hole. Dropped in, at that point no Bitcoin. This was 2000 and where were we? 2007, credit crunch summer. Got in under the hiring phrase, watched the 2008 catastrophe from a high rise in London in Canary Wharf.

We were opposite Lehman Brothers and I was an ex-military 20 year old idiot who just thought, Oh, I'm in Wall Street now. Look at the big bank. Looks like an Ants nest been stamped on. Didn't get it.

Didn't get it. Ashen face traders. Panic. We haven't seen that yet. I saw it on that floor. I went out for lunch, got a call off my mate. Where are you? I'm having lunch. What's the matter? Don't come back. Why?

I'm under my desk with a sharp pencil. Why? They're leading people off the floor. They were making redundancies by row. Fuck. Row. It's like a big bull pen in the middle. Goldfish balls on the outside were all like head of, head of, dot, dot, dots were.

Right. Security. Hit a row. Lead them away. Into the goldfish balls. There's your number. Accept it or you're fired. Security come and lock your computer to make sure you don't get back to your trade in terminal.

Done. Jesus Christ. I saw a lot more of those executions over the years. Me included. I got executed like that at the end. Oh really? Yeah. Was that because of your beliefs or just because shit had gone bad or?

Yeah. I think it was. So what happened after I was an assistant, got okay at that. Didn't get particularly good at it. I don't think it's a particularly job that you want to get good at. You're basically a, you're doing something a program should do.

And probably does do now. You're just comparing trades and doing the admin. But the brokers who the traders take the trades from, I like the creepiest in the casino. And one of those brokers, they always call you not the main trader to check the trades.

They don't bother the main trader. So you get friendly with them. Take you out for a few beers. Do a few tests on you. Put a menu in front of you and make you add up all the sides and take a bit off and make sure you're on your feet and all that.

Then you go. Get a job. Move the trader that used to be the assistant for, you're now the broker of and when they call up to you and place a trade, you execute the trade. You give them the confirmation.

It could be. Depends on your discipline, but mine was interest rates and derivatives. We trade bond futures or options. A trader come through from a trader. Very salesy. Very Nick Leeson.

Not particularly technically difficult. Much more of a salesy soft skill role. But you definitely got more credibility and orders if you knew what you were talking about in the market. And that was the start of the Bitcoin thing.

I didn't have a degree. I didn't have this badge that said I don't need to think anymore. I had a major chip on my shoulder. Early twenties in the big smoke. Didn't know the financial side.

Was making okay money and was getting the feeling that someone was going to tap me on the shoulder and say, you snuck in. You don't belong here. So I started to do my own reading. And I rediscovered a lot of books and self-study.

And because I wasn't following a fiat syllabus at a Red Brick University and because I was just basically taking a term that was mentioned googling around it. Understanding it like a piece of a jigsaw and moving on.

And going where my curiosity went as opposed to where I was instructed to go for credits. And drawing conclusions for credits, which is what universities do now. I was just learning. And that was a black pill.

I realized I was in an abattoir. I realized that a homeless guy on the street had less purchasing power in his cup literally on the grounds that I watched while I was a broker. A 30 year treasury bond get issued into the market for three days and get bought back with printed money.

And it just took all the taste out of my mouth. By then, I'd been in the market trading like that for seven years, made some good money. But the health sides were coming and catching me up.

Was that stress? Never been to a GP, never even registered. In the same year that I was black pillin, it was obviously causing me physical. I was getting upset. I thought I was working hard for money and being a slick boy, whatever, hard working right.

That time. Oh no. Actually, this is zero summing away. And I'm stealing from poor people. And it was like, oh my God, it was the cantalon effect. Now we've got luxury of all these terms and a growing understanding of what we're looking at in Bitcoin.

But when you're on your own, you don't have a cantalon. Word, you just have a, you're a prick. So you're sat there and you're thinking, I'm making money, but I'm making the world a worse place?

Instant. From knowing the senior age process, the fractional reserve, learning about that, learning about the false decentralization of the Fed. The creature from Jekyll Island, reading that on a broker's desk in plain sight, just reading it.

Reading all these structured YouTube videos, that initial rabbit hole, but without the Bitcoin piece. Without the Bitcoin piece. I didn't have the confidence to crack into Bitcoin as a subject.

Nerd money was what I remember thinking. Nerd money. Idiot. Should have just. Mad idiot. We all think the same thing. I know. I remember seeing the Bitcoin words, the word Bitcoin, in a Bloomberg font, on a screen, next to my train to terminal.

Something like someone had lost one on a big landfill or something like that. I'm thinking, Ed Boring, nerd money, nectar points for the internet. Doesn't make sense. I am a silver investor at the time.

Because I was very black-pilled and very sad money compliant and into that side, but Bitcoin wasn't it. So when I burned out, eventually, from the health side, I also reached a kind of peak in my career.

I didn't learn much. I was going through the motions. I'd become a senior broker. There was not much to learn. It was basically just more of the same, more of the same. And that was getting on me.

And I started to make mistakes. So now, in my own opinion, and you don't get to decide on the stuff that's in your heart, I was in an unethical job. Yeah. My health was on the way. And now, working with people that I don't, I have a major schism with.

Yeah. Confront them. Guys, do you know how this works and tried that process with them? But they're mortgaged and married. And nice guys, but just not with the same set of circumstances. I had the luxury of walking away.

They didn't. But did they understand, like, when you're saying to them? They don't want to understand. Okay. It's like, even if you have a smoking gun and CCTV cameras of us piling money into our own cars, my wife needs a holiday this year.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it wasn't as extreme then as it is now. Yeah. So, they were more, like, theoretical arguments. Like, do you know where, do you know, like, the money we pay ourselves in is like fresh money.

It's like two hops from the Fed. Does not make sense to you that we're doing a job that has not changed for 20 years and we're still making really good money on it. Yeah. So, there's those confrontations and then those kind of, exactly like everyone experiences with Bitcoin.

You speak into people whose incentives are not aligned enough to hear you. Yeah. So, there's no qualitative case to be made. So, you try that and that was my naivety. But then I started, like, you've got to be very shit-heart on the physically, on the mouse, fast reactions.

And you've got to be, you've got to care about what you're doing. And I wasn't at the end. So, my performance was dropping. And I felt guilty about that because someone's paying me to do that role.

Yeah, yeah. And I wasn't meeting it. And I didn't want to meet it. So, I quit. I decided to quit. And that's where I started to lose a sympathy for people who feel as though they're on the travel later.

Who are being dragged into something that the doctors, the ethically compromised. You can fucking quit. You can, yeah. Right? You can accept a lower quality of life and you can quit. Now, I'm a hypocrite because I don't have the family to drag through that.

I was a single guy. I had a house at the time. But beyond that, not a lot of ties. But I did make that cut a long time ago. And my contingency plan was to learn to code. So, I went to a London, woke boot camp.

Yeah. And for a little while, they made me literate enough in code to do my own experimental full stack. That was the fittest I've ever been on writing code. But it did give me the confidence to crack into the white paper again.

Right. And having, didn't, not particularly anything that I learned on that camp much that was applicable to Bitcoin. Just give me the confidence. Yeah, yeah. And with the background in money and knowing that the black pill from the dollar side of the situation was awful.

And you're in the Jim Rickards, Professor Hanke, whatever group of salty no-coiners or gold, Peter Schiff types, who I loved at the time. Mm-hmm. Then read the white paper. And I knew straight away what was going to happen.

Because you're primed for it then. Because you're already like, things are fucked. Yeah. You've already seen what's happened. Yeah. Oh, wait. Oh, wait. There. Front row. Seeing it. Front row.

I looked across at the Treasury group in a different bullpen, 10 metres away, just normal people, you know, normal salaried guys. 24 hours of cash. White faces. Mm-hmm. White panic. Never forget that.

Mm-hmm. When you reread the white paper and you had the confidence to go through it again. Yeah. You. It's all my house. Was it like an immediate, did you read it and just go, "Fuck me." This is the thing.

Yeah. Right. It's like someone set me on fire. I'd come back to my parents' house to stay for a little while. I think it was Christmas at the time. I'd come back with Christmas. Yeah. We'd done the course.

I'd quit my job in September-ish. Mm-hmm. The course on-boarded in October, November. I did that. And then I had a bit of breathing room. I was still getting paid by the brokerage. Because you're not allowed to go and work for another broker.

They'll pay your salary, but I went and did a training course. So at the time, I think I had a little bit of breathing room. And yeah, it was an emotional experience. Genuinely it was. And it was only the white paper.

There wasn't as many resources back then as that. But the implications of what that paper said to me, I just knew. I just knew straight away. I don't think it was just profound. Mm-hmm. And lightning, obviously, never.

Those kind of things. The philosophical piece came in later. Mm-hmm. But definitely knew that this is disruptive. It's a change in the DNA of society. A root change that can only be resolved with a crescendo at some point.

Yeah. A massive global debt default. And a reform and a recapitalization into Bitcoin. And only into Bitcoin. Mm-hmm. And that was profound. And then I knew I had to buy some. And then ever since then, I felt like I'm short.

Ever since then, I'm short Bitcoin. How long was it until you got to a point where you could speak to other Bitcoiners, like, or get the sort of quality of books and audio and everything that we have now?

Like, how many years? Oh, yeah, that's tough. I was on my own for a very, very long time. Mentally, Blackpilled, no one loves me. People have slapped me on the back and called me brother.

Mm-hmm. I'm going to retire. If you don't come into work tomorrow and resign, I'm going to sack you. Okay. Really in a dark place with it all. Mm-hmm. No, I'm right. And the bit that I look back and I'm kind of proud of is that I didn't bend.

Mm-hmm. I didn't turn into a fucking bitch. Because you could have easily done that. And go back and say, "Okay, I'll go along with the bad idea." And stack. Thank God. Yeah. Because you could have done that.

You could have both, couldn't I? You could have. I could have been a chippy broker. Yeah. Who's DCA and InterSats and probably got a lot more shots now. Yeah, yeah. But where would you be mentally?

Where would you be mentally? Or physically? Yeah. You might not be here. Might not be here. Heart attacks in the 20s, 30s. Not as bad nowadays, but... Less cocaine maybe. Less cocaine. When I...

The first... The first time I went in there. They said we'd just stop doing cocaine on the desks. It's like, "What?" And I just thought this image was like an old broker. He absolutely loves cocaine.

Like, muttering to himself as he skips off to the toilet going, "Oh, bloody..." Shouldn't have to go all the way over here to do a load of class A drug. I just mixed them up. And apparently, before that, there used to be a beer cart that went round and a guy who'd make cigars.

Amazing. Like, decades ago. Amazing. There's loads of old war stories from the broken side. Because those lads aren't... Not going to do them down, but they're not collegiate. They're not academic.

They're the wide boy, London Essex lot who get in. They're funny on the line. They've got a good summary of what the market's done. And at the end of the day, the traders have got to give their business to someone.

Do you want to go to Ladbrooks or Betfred? I like the guy at Betfred. He's funny. He takes me out for a beer. He knows the misses. We're all mates. That was the job. And it was all or nothing.

So you couldn't really be a Bitcoiner at the level I got it at, which was like a libertarian political level. It wasn't an investment. It was an opt-out. Definitely remember thinking that it was something that is now not in the fiat.

What's become the digital pinopticon? It's now on the sidelines. And then had no peers. No mentor, no peers. Anybody really that got it. Even through the boot camp, the code in boot camp, there was one orange pill guy who I didn't really come across during the course.

And he drifted off, never met him again. I was a solitary Bitcoiner. That was the Ben Gunn avatar. Ben Gunn is a character in Treasure Island, right? Right, okay. And in Treasure Island, his story is not told as a story, but it's kind of like a side story.

He promises a load of pirates. He knows where the treasure is on the island. Right. And when he gets onto the island, he can't find it. Or it's more elusive. They give him a gun. And they make him the governor of the desert island.

And they leave him. They abandon him. And that's what happened on the broken desk. It sort of went round and I was like, look, there's something wrong here. Like, never got through to them, never really got through.

And yeah, they just kind of went, yeah, you're not one of us anymore. Yeah, there's that line, isn't there, where it's like, once you go past it, it's very difficult to interact with people on that level because all the jokes, all the little bits of information, all the things that you would have talked about now feel empty and hollow

and pointless and just like a waste of fucking time. Do you ever go on the motorway and you've got a GPS and you go past the turn-in and it says like go 18 miles and then turn around and come back?

Yeah. That's what that job felt like. I felt like I was on the wrong turn and there were no turn-offs. And that's what doctors are experiencing in the UK right now. That's why I'm so angry.

I know what that felt like. I know what it feels like to feel like someone's acting through you and you're not yourself. You're not sovereign. And when that changed, I quit. I got straight into the corn.

Genuinely straight in. Like really, like, and vested in. So, you know, sold my house in London. Committed to the idea of having less money and then I quit. I did my own garden instead of paying a local London landscape of 50 grand or something insane number that I'd have had to pay tax on.

Just did the garden myself. Yeah. Got fit. Got a tan. Still marked the house up and sold it. Yeah. And then Bitcoin, whatever. Did its thing. Bitcoin did Bitcoin. Well, yeah. So, I went away.

I'd burnt out by then. I'd burnt out and I'd well and truly fallen out of love with. It's London and the whole scene. Yeah. So, I went over to Thailand. I was going to go and try and be a helicopter pilot because I had a few quid.

I didn't put everything into Bitcoin. I just put. Yeah. You know. And I was going to go and be a helicopter pilot, but then Brexit happened. And the expense of the training just took the risk reward out of it for me.

Right. And instead, I went up the diving, scuba diving syllabus and just went on the boats. Mm-hmm. And talked to. In Thailand? In Thailand. Yeah. Talk to a few people about it. The same ratio of orange pills to spit in the orange pill out as anywhere else.

Yeah. I definitely retired people in Thailand. Really? Yeah. And that's a great feeling. Yeah. One guy in particular from Hong Kong, his wife from Hong Kong, and I'm positive I changed his life.

That's what he would have been fucking wrecked by now. And he got out of Hong Kong dollars into dollars. And I also orange-pilled him. That's beautiful. Smashed it right down. He was my technical diving instructor.

Right. So he taught me how to dive, really dangerous dives. Mm-hmm. And then that took a bond. And then maybe that just made me up my game and give him a better pitch. But by the time I'd left, he'd been in, not steep.

Well, because you care more. If you built that bond, you care more. So you're like, I actually really fucking like this person. Yeah. So I really want them to get it. Yes. I'm pretty fucking sure that I'm right.

Yeah. Whereas if it's, you know, people now, like when they're, if you don't really respect them or like them or have a bond with them, you're just like, well, fuck you. You can carry on with your fish.

Yeah. I actually don't care. You don't, you don't, the same thing with the word. Yeah. You don't deserve this word and you don't deserve these sats. You don't deserve it. Right. You're not strong enough.

You're not tough enough. You don't have morals. You don't have ethics. You're not the sort of man that deserves this. There's more to it. It's wrong. Have you ever, I see the ethical thing you've just set out there is perfect.

I completely subscribed to it. But the good thing about the situation is you've also got the greater good. Have you ever given more resource to someone than they're capable of holding? It ruins their life.

I've given fiat loans to friends. They hardly pay back the interest on the interest and then bonk. And then fuck off. I've had the same. Yeah. They're not up to it. The reason you created the wealth is what makes you deserve it.

If you created it, you are the natural owner of it. And no amount of bad luck and other sub stories because I've heard them all from people. I've heard them all my life from people in my life with like, oh, if it was only for this and it was only for that.

And I'm just stuck here because I'm this. And then I got lucky in the middle of my life and I came back to those people with time and wealth. And I said, okay, here we go. That's a problem for you.

It's not. Did their performance change? No. The resource was wasted and unfortunately then it didn't go to a deserving party. It didn't go into a deserving process. And so not only have you done the wrong thing by not allocating that stuff to someone who's capable.

You've ruined their life because their self-esteem's in the toilet and they've put the money in something that blew up. You've given them more rope to hang themselves with than they've done it.

So I am now a lot more careful in my personal life about who I help. And I don't mean I help fewer people. I mean, I have to think carefully about what represents help. Am I perpetuating a problem with more resource to burn into that problem?

Or am I fixing the problem? Is it temporary? Is it immediately helpful? And is it reversible? And then I act with people. Yeah, the person needs to be capable of handling it. They're also sure that they can when they're on the phone.

Because it's someone else's problem and it was an unlucky thing and that's why they're in the city. Exactly like you said. That's bad ownership though, isn't it? But that's something that's not really taught.

I feel like for most people unless you've not lived a particularly normal life, I wouldn't class mine as normal in any way. Unorthodox. Unorthodox. You have to take personal responsibility.

Yeah. You had to leave your job because you'd probably otherwise be in a coffin. You've had to do certain things in your life. They call it the ground rushing up. You've got to see the ground rushing up.

You've jumped out of a plane and everyone's an ant and you think this can last forever. And then all of a sudden the horizon is in your view and those people look at it. They've got faces and you've got to pull the cord.

And people, I think a lot of people out there have just, their feet have never touched the ground. Yeah. They've never had that feeling where they're on the side of a climbing wall with no rope.

And you've got to take it seriously. Yeah. And that is life. Yeah. There is a backstop. Sorry, there is no backstop. There is only you. There's risk everywhere. To backstop yourself, exactly.

And that's no more true here. Great thing about being in solitude is when you fuck up, can't blame it all on the dog. There's no one here to project my problems onto. And what you see out there is the public projecting their problems onto everyone.

Yeah. Because their lives are so horrific and unworthy of the time that they have to live outside of that in the media on Twitter necessarily just to escape the shit that they're in. And feel fulfilled.

Is that a whole thing of people caring how many likes you have on social media or followers? It's like it's so fucking pointless in reality. Unless you're monetising it, I get that, but it doesn't mean anything.

It's the dopamine. Yeah. It's the text. Do you remember? We're similar age, like chatting to a girl up in school. You've got your Nokia 3310 and you fire a couple of texts out and you're like, "What?"

You get that little beat beat. Yeah. And you didn't get the read or unread. Yeah. You didn't know. Yeah. You never knew. Yeah. You never knew. Oh, they've ignored me. Yeah. But that's how deeply rooted these phones are in my frontal cortex.

Yeah. Like the first sexual encounters were broken on these things and now we're discussing things and you're rated. Yeah, yeah. You're rated on by everybody. Terrifying. It's terrifying.

Absolutely terrifying. It's black mirror stuff. I just want 10 mates, 500 associates and 10,000 people who think like me. And I'll go to the wall for them. I'm not going to keep cracking on in this fiat thing.

I'm not going to dance to that tune. I just think that's a combination of scenarios. I'm not prepared to accept. I'd rather them just throw me in a box. And a good line. Like someone else come up here and thrash this to something profitable.

Yeah. You won't find them. Yeah. And even if you could, you're going to convince them to do it without any reward for themselves spiritually or financially. Best of luck. Best of luck. I know how much it takes out of you.

You can't do work like this unless you're motivated. I couldn't do the broken work while I was not motivated. When you're motivated, it's easy. You have to emotionally invest in it as well to some extent.

I can only imagine up here. I have to take a piss in a minute. We'll have a break if you want. Yeah, shall we? Yeah. I wonder if the dog can fucking hit can be heard on it. I would think probably.

All the way through. There you go. It is interesting. Well, I think it's interesting anyway. Yeah. You're, um, we're back. Yeah. You're, uh, I was just saying your, your sort of previous career choices seem to have impacted the way that you make decisions.

Hugely. Now. Yes. It seems to be that you're very process driven and like you, you, your planning seems to be, is that a military thing? Risk. Like, I like the risk. Right. And then it's the, it's stewarding a dangerous or somewhat, in some other way defined as risky situation.

Yeah. And with skill. Or an attempted skill. Neutralize it. Broken. Fast trade. The guy on the other end of the line needs to cover something he's agreed with his customer. Every second. Gotta be good.

Love that. Military different kind of risk. Different kind of risk. A different kind of person back then. Early twenties. Physical and mental points to prove. Yeah. That, that actually at the time didn't end up getting proven later in my career as other challenges and got my confidence there.

But the military was my first attempt. The broken was just that moment. But everyone who's listening will understand you get into a job. It's not the one you want. And then you start to hop.

Yeah. For a little bit more money. A little bit more holiday. Whatever. Whatever the giveaway is. You move. Or maybe a more senior role. But then that was the broken bit done. Other things that kind of like physical activities.

Sailing. Skydiving. If I can't. You know. When we were allowed to move around. Motorcycling. On road. Off road. Long distance. Enduro. Diving. All this is. All this is high risk. If you're an idiot.

Safer than where we're sat now if you're not. Right. If you follow the syllabus. And you understand the rules. And why they are the way they are. You're very safe. In all of that. With the one exceptions forestry.

That's why you've chosen that now. You go harder. More difficult. More dangerous please. More. More. More risk. Broken into safer chunks. Tea and medals for Ben. Just whatever. It just becomes a game.

Yeah. And the risks. These risks. And the management of risk. Have seen defined in different ways. From a military point of view. Physical danger. Physical risk. And adaptable enemy. So on.

Keep going. Military theory. Financial risk. Volatility. Suppressed volatility. I learnt about options. I learnt the language of finance. The futures. The options. Those terms are just as applicable to scuba diving.

As anything else. In scuba diving. There's a pattern in these. They look like different careers. They're visibly very different. Not many people have done them all. But they rhyme with each other on the risk profile.

You put in your life in someone's hands. As a scuba instructor. You're taking someone to 25 metres. To break an egg and show them how a yoke looks in the water. But if they panic. They will die.

So you've got to have skill. You've got to a gazooge credibility. You've got to know how to handle someone. If they go wrong. And they can kill you. So they grab onto you and all that. They'll grab their panic.

And when we talk about doctors and other captured professions who are being forced into something. The same panic routine that they're doing now in the economy. I see in a panic diver. Who is mindless.

And they will grab you. And they will try and push you under water. And they will try to stand on top of you. So that they can get up. Even though their head is already up. They will try.

And I have seen it so often. To swim literally out of the water with panic. That's what the human panic protocol does when it triggers. Get me out. And the technical diver. Instructor taught me about independence.

And interdependence in the water. When you're at deeper depths. The person opposite you has to be as good as you. Because when they make a mistake. When they panic they'll kill you. They'll grab for your hose.

They'll grab for your face or mask. And the gases can sometimes make you act strangely. You're saying to me I say about making a bit drunk. Yeah if you go down too deep too quickly. And if you're not experienced.

Those are the type of things that make you more likely to get a gas narcosis. And it's just no one really knows what causes it. You just act a little bit drunk down there. And they measure it in martinis.

How drunk were you? About three martinis. You know. So you've got to be really like a shit hot. High integrity. Person. Or try to fish. Yeah. Because you are in those types of paired up. Very nasty.

Very potentially short error chain. So not a lot has to go wrong and it doesn't have to take a long time. And it all goes wrong very quickly. But that's fine. You've just got to concentrate.

You've just got to concentrate. It pushes out everything in your mind except what my gas pressure is. Where's my next level? We're going to 18 meters for three minutes. We're going to 15 meters for four minutes.

Two people next to each other going through the process. And the skill. And then that side of it and then you break the surface. And you have basically done something you're not meant to do as a human being.

You've taken your body to three times a car pressure. It's crazy. It's crazy. And it's an amazing world down there. You don't see the surface. You're on the moon. That's where they train astronauts.

Is it? Yeah. You're weightless. I've never had the chance to go diving. I've done it in a swimming pool once in New York. I just sat at the bottom of the swimming pool. Done a little bubble.

Yeah. Done all that. Just at a mate's house. It's still good fun though. That's cool. Another thing I want to talk about is all these things are things I've been scared of. And that's another thing I wanted to actually share is there's one thing I want people to take away.

It's that I want to say that I have attacked fear in my life. Just little shitty fears. Phobias. Scared of loads of stuff. Heights. Yeah. Lend to climb. Lend to sky dive. You're not scared after that.

You're just not scuba diving. I had a claustrophobia thing. Didn't like the idea of this bloody big bald gag thing in my mouth and like water going up my nose and my eyes. And I recognized in that the irrationality of just this bitch that's blocking out a huge experience.

Not because it's inherently dangerous because one part of my brain is telling me that diving if you do it properly is very safe. But then this other bitch is like oh no don't. Just go walk past the centre.

Just go the pub. Yeah, yeah. Just get the photographs. It's not the same. It's just the same. You want... No, I'm so glad. And then you attack those fears and behind them there's nothing.

Yeah. And then you get addicted to it. So after doing all this stuff, found this forest as a major problem. What I might have done like that was cut and run. Yeah. I might cut and run. I thought no.

I smell that same. I'm scared of this. Yeah. Sit in your fear for a while and ask yourself where is it coming from and what can you do? And it's like turning a problem inside out. And it goes from being this monster into something that really gives you wealth or health or some kind of spiritual feeling of achievement.

And you're a monster after that. Yeah. Never felt like that. Never ever felt like that. And then you start to get this clip of alright, so we've just done a 60 metre dive. That's incredible.

I didn't think I'd be able to do that. 60 metres is a fucking long way to go down. It's a long way in time, in risk.

The main difference between detect diving, not get too much into diving, but tech diving versus recreational is, if you have a problem when you're doing tech diving, the problem that saves your life has to be within the dive.

If you have a recreational diving problem, you just go up. Yeah. But if you go up when you're doing technical diving, you will die. Diocryphal. Is this because of the speed that you go up?

Yes. Is that what, you know, like people have these fucking huge veins popping out of their legs and stuff like that? That's different. Different. Right. You know the stuff I'm meaning though.

It looks like tree roots coming back. Yeah, what's it called? Varicose veins. That's it. No, no, no, that's completely no. When you put liquid under pressure next to a gas, the gas is absorbed into the liquid.

Simple. That's how the carbonate drinks. So your fizzy drink is what your body's blood gets to on a much more low-key way. You don't literally have fizzy blood, but you go down very deep.

You're breathing air into your lungs and that gas is being absorbed into the soft tissues, into your blood, your lungs, your muscle. You have to then ascend very slowly and that gas has to release naturally back into your exhale until you're at the surface and you're not, you haven't got quote unquote fizzy blood.

And then there's a period of time after that that you need to not dive. Right. You know, because you've got, you've got a certain load of gas in your system. Okay. So you're very very slowly.

So if you're very deep and you go up very quickly, those bubbles will give you, it'll kill you. It'll just make your blood into fizz and nitrogen bubble will just go to either your heart or your brain.

Done. Finished. Yeah, finished. So that, the technical diving, so that doesn't, I'm quite so appealing to me is. It is, it is appealing. It is appealing. You'll, you're looking at the black belt bit.

That isn't even black belt. The people that do that would laugh at me for calling it a black belt what I did. Which is the technical diver. This cave diving. This rebreather. That's bad. So I was in Thailand when the cave boys got lost.

Right. And all the best technical divers were drawn up to that emergency and they dived those caverns. Very brave men. And one or two, having done that emergency came down and helped on another emergency that we were having in Peket where I lived.

Chinese tourist boat went down. Right. And there were a hundred people on it. Oh, sure. And that was one of the last, my last experiences in Thailand. You, you dived down, did you? I had decided to leave.

Yeah. I felt like it was Peter Pan. Never, never land. And it was time to come home. Right. Felt guilty, had left my family. And I'm just living it up. Bitcoin had made a major move by then.

And it was making me, like, come back to life. Come back. Come back. Yeah. Um, uh, handed in. Like, you don't really have notice, but told everyone I was leaving. And didn't renew my leases on the, on the, on the villa over there.

And then boom. Yeah. Um, call went out. All the technical divers have gone up to, uh, wherever it was, Chiang Mai, um, to rescue these boys. And unfortunately a, a major, a big, a big tour boat had gone down, um, in a storm.

And the boat hadn't got proper blueprints. Mm hmm. When it was dived, when we dived it, we found concrete poured into the hull to treat, to keep it from being straight and level. So they, they, they launched it when it was built.

It was off onto one side. So their fix was to pour concrete into the other side of the hull. Fuck me. They fucked the manifest. So we were diving. We were taking risky dives on a live wreck.

And the people that did it, the people that ran the tour, had lied on the manifest to save face. And that's, that was my experience of sort of mainland China. Fucking hell. It was a very, very difficult dive.

I was actually one of my last dives. And that's when I came back here. Mm hmm. Must have fucked me up. I mean, I didn't, we didn't do any trim training after it. It, it, it was, it was very, very weird experience.

And, and also mixed in with like leaving a lot of friends. Um, um, a very, very difficult dive technically. Mm hmm. And, uh, just the most humble, you've just got to try and stay calm when you're breathing and breathing apparatus.

And it's just, it was just the pits came back here and a massive tail spin. That sounds fucking horrible. Just in time for the Bitcoin bear market. Ha ha ha ha. So I got my show into a really good, like mentally healthy frame of mind.

And then landed in the UK, uh, family just disaster. It's like to start, to start the COVID craziness. Um, personal life, like whatever. Um, everyone in Bitcoin seems to have like these. Um, what Michael Saylor calls rotating the investor base is basically just falling out with Fiat friends, making friends with sound money, friends.

So I had that at the same time. Yeah. But more ending of friendships than finding new ones to begin with. And then I converted my Twitter account that was just doing like motorcycle updates when I was traveling around Thailand into Bitcoin.

Yeah. Found Bitcoin Twitter. Um, I was like, Oh my God, these people have put words on top of feelings I've had for nearly a decade. Mm. These are my people. Yeah. And then just joining that show of people swimming around a bit, the Twitter coral reef.

A show of fucked up fish. Fucked up miscreants. Plebs. And govable misfits. Yeah. I'm, I can't tell you this, the feeling of excitement to go from poor old bang gun on his, on his tard in the woods, last man on earth cracking coconuts and just living.

Yeah. To the remnant is post, is shit posting in swarms on Twitter. Yeah. And the aggregated collective doctrine that that's formed is convincing billionaires to convert the treasuries into Bitcoin.

Mm hmm. It's mad when you think about it. Fucking amazing. It's, it is, it is mad. I watched it. It's mad. I watched it. And I, I knew all did too. And that was a major tipping point. When, when this guy Michael Saylor is like, looked like shit on Twitter, uh, looked like

shit on YouTube five years before he came and went on pomps podcast. He looked like a Fiat. No. Burned out, couldn't find his way tech victim of his own success guy. That'd be very harsh, but that's who I saw.

Yeah. And he got lit up by the same signal I got lit up by. It put, it put, it put that sense of fullness back in your chest. Yeah. And that sense of pump after you've gone to gym and you pumped.

And that feeling of being able to be in control doesn't matter what's out there. I'm a competent human being and I can, I can control the situation. And the, and I knew that when I was on my own, I felt like a control experiment and I didn't know Bitcoin Twitter and I didn't know the social side or the art side or the culture.

The stoicism came late for me. I read the stoic books and acknowledged them as valid, but didn't tie it together with Bitcoin. And then being on Bitcoin Twitter has just been like being on an app with updates that come sporadically and some of them are a bit off, but basically refining and improving

the argument and the questions that that group asked of me, make me competitive. They make me want to bring you here and show you a work in woodland and say, this is, this is me. I'm not laughing.

I'm, I'm here doing work and then that's all to Bitcoin and Bitcoin is credit. Yeah. Because I don't know how would I done if I didn't have the Bitcoin Twitter. What's funny? Crunch to lean on.

Yeah. A fucked up, amorphous load of idiots, amoebas, pond life, the hated. And the pushed to one side and in any other iteration of history probably lined up and shot or just put in a, put in a kitchen, just told to peel potatoes, cry harder.

Yeah. And the logic of violence has been changed and we're seeing the early winds of a digital Roman Empire in Bitcoin, I think, where these initial skirmishes that the fiat world is has tried to hem and haul Bitcoin has failed.

And like everyone knows, TikTok next block, every day that goes by, which the price isn't zero. The odds of the complete ubiquity across the whole world is higher. And then we just get these rocking, unscheduled, massive updates, Bitcoin lightning Twitter.

Show of thoughts on that. We're going to win. I do think we're going to win now. The diving analogy to take and put into that question is when you're diving down at like six bars of pressure, so two and a half times a tire, a car tire, the reason your chest

isn't crushed by the depths of the ocean, like a submarine might be, like gas boots where the pressure is coming in, is because you're breathing pressurized gas out of a regulated system on your back or on your side that is putting pressure in your chest equal and opposite to the pressure outside.

And I see the same in Bitcoin technology playing cops and robbers with authoritarian technology and ubiquity. And where we see on Twitter, the announcements of our ideological enemies wins, like the capture of social media and the censorship thing that's going on and the social credit push and blur and blur and blur.

We also see things like you can send transaction finality on something that you ship post on. And it's an open network. Mr Jack Mallers has given me more little crumbs of orange pill. He's told me that we can strengthen our network by letting other people use it as a rail for

fiat settlements at the five aside kitty level. So retail money, never been done. And so therefore the only thing you can conclude is that whatever's coming has never happened before. That's the only real concrete thing you can take away.

I do think we're going to win. Would you think about the like the battle or the battles that's coming in terms of who are we going to be portrayed as and how do we fight it? Because what makes me think about it is I say a lot on Bitcoin Twitter of people like, oh, yeah, come and take it.

They've got their gun. They've got all that. They've got a lot of guys who are like, oh, well, I train in the gym and I've got all my guns and I'm ready to fight this. But my personal view on it is that's kind of naive when we talked about it earlier in terms of you don't-- you're not going to beat that troll.

They've got the power. They've got the violence. And that's where they want you to go. Yeah. Do you know why there's so many police that look like they're getting ready to fight an Agincourt or something, that's the long lines of training and pre-plan programming.

That's a training pipeline of three to four years of learning. I did riot training. I didn't even need to do it, but because I was doing, you had to do what you were going to command other people to do.

That was the logic. And we did riot training, spray you in water and then throw a molt of cocktails at you and you call your pants steam up. So you have to learn. And what that shows is that this was all planned, this contingency of going and losing

your shit in the town square has been accounted for and it's not what's going to help us win. And also, I don't like fighting. No. Bad experiences of it, I don't think it solves anything, and I don't think that's the way that you resolve a disagreement at the bottom of it.

I don't think that's-- we are going to become-- what are we going to become? Are we going to become an orthodox Jewish community? There's daylight between us and another group. I don't know.

I suspect that we won't because the same incentives that have persuaded us are going to persuade all these other people. They just need their incentives to fail first. They need, like I have done, to go through the NHS and it fail you.

So a couple of years ago, I broke my jaw, it's completely banal accident. It wasn't like this fighting or anything, just fell over, cracked it on the floor. And A&E helped the ambulance didn't come, head injury, concussion, no one came.

That's when I started to think about first aid, that's when I started to think about primary care, how do I set a broken bone if no one will set it for me? How do I stitch up a wound, how do I treat a disease, and then I went and learned how to do it.

I don't have the courses for all that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah. So I think we're going to need to-- great power comes, great responsibility. The money's been taken off you and you've been basically a farmed animal.

And now we've found a way to take our money back. We have a certain amount of independence, but it's not just the money that you need to have an independence of, you need physical independence.

You need to be slightly more resilient, you need to have a little bit more about you, and you need to be expected to do more broad tasks. And so it comes to the last, maybe the last point we make.

The dystopia that everyone's worried about and the paradise that we tweet about, the moon and hell, the preparation is the same for both. So we might get burned here. This might all turn really ugly and they might capture services and capture us, frankly, before there's a chance for the network to do what it needs to do.

We might lose. I don't know if that's true or not. But the right thing to do is to stay fit and to be honest and to share your concerns with people around you and tell the truth and to build as though you're going to be here for the long run.

Because that's a principle moral position to take in a mass panic, is to not panic, to not be the one who is adding to the pain and the uncertainty, but to stand with some composure and go down with it.

And that's the worst scenario I can imagine for myself and that's not that bad. That's an honorable, miserable, suboptimal, but at least, at least I've not contributed and at least I didn't fail on my principle.

So that's the worst. So talk about the worst first, but if you stay fit and you do your training and you network with people who you care about, who care about the same things you care about and the coders keep pushing code and the builders keep building and we grow this network and the money wins

on the money war, we're even better positioned to take advantage and by then maybe might live up to the capital allocators responsibilities that some of these stacks will command when number goes up.

It's true because if you let you say if we get through this the other side and we do things right, then we will be strong, fit, sharp, hope so, have the money to back projects that we believe can make the world a better place and we become the people who guide the

world a certain way but we rather than doing it the way it's going now, which is fucking lunacy. Well, I'm big enough for the stack I've got now. I feel if I'm a king, I'm sovereign, my stack represents my level of appetite and my level of ability and I'm all right in 2021 but I am not ready for my 2028 stack, that level

of money and wealth is something I haven't only seen back in the broken days and it burned more people than it helped so I'm getting ready for that. 2028. I just made that one up, I don't even know why I said 2028 but it could be 2022.

I think that's too early personally, I do as well, yeah, it could happen. Things are moving fast though. They are moving fast but I don't think that we're at a stage now where I don't think that next year I'm going to wake up and it's like we're at a million pound of Bitcoin, I just don't see it.

I know it's possible but I don't see it while I think it's more likely that in five years we could be between one and ten. That I think is more likely than us being at a million next year.

I can't see the chasm between state A, a Bitcoin virus in a fiat system where we are right now and arguably in a later stage I definitely knew the virus was going to kill a host and I'm positive it will and what those deathros create for the people on that system I don't know and that is the big question.

Who's helped us? Michael Saylor helped explain how the corporate stock market type area, the regulatory system, how that would assimilate Bitcoin and it has. It's saying right now as of today fresh off the press it's a commodity, it's under the existing regulatory structure and we'll treat it as a commodity so Michael Saylor helped

me uncover some of the uncertainty between A and B by seeing how the corporate world would move its liquidity into the market and I can see that now ETFs come in very soon.

It seems a lot of this is like it's hard because you can go down a conspiracy theory side quite easily and I can think to myself well these big institutions, the real money,

big big big money, I think they must know that every time they buy, every time they stack, every time they get involved that they are knowingly killing themselves off, they're knowingly taking the power from themselves long term but then there's this other incentive

which is like oh we can make a lot of money short term and they are short term thinkers a lot of these people so it's like where does it happen, you know you hear a lot of people say it's like musical chairs and once one sits down they'll all have to sit down.

I just don't know how long it takes between now and whenever that big sit down like a black rock or something like that. It's a margin call. No I haven't actually. I got to watch that and for the people listening who have that boardroom meeting where just

to catch you up very quickly I'm going to butcher the movie for you so to summarize it. 2008 crisis, everyone goes home, risk manager stays late, craps the code on the spreadsheet realises that the bank has to sell a shitload of paper and if they don't and they hold it

over a period of days, huge P and L losses for the bank, wipes out their entire capital bank collapses, tells his boss, boss tells the boss's boss, boss tells the boss's boss in the room.

Yeah. Main man, sell everything now and then a load of like acting, you know can we do that should we? Absolutely. More likely. Insert acting. That's what's going to happen with Bitcoin, buy it all now.

You reckon? Yeah. That's going to be the conversation. Michael Saylor has put three plus billion in, he's found a way to repeat it that doesn't hurt him, he's on side, he's in open profit, he's legally on side, he's explained it perfectly and he's replicated it and what he's saying is that margin call if you do end up watching

that movie, he was the corporate that moved first, he in that movie was the bank that sold the dog shit first and all these other corporations out there are sat on dog shit, crap and they don't realize that they've got something worse than the mezzanine finance

that caused the housing bubble on their balance sheet in cash dollars, it's the same fiat rot and the margin call dynamic will happen, buy it all now. That's what I think. So I listened to, what's his name, that fucking Kevin O'Leary the other day, what a cock he

came across as, he was talking about compliance, he was talking about compliance in a way that he thought it made him sound powerful and to me it made him sound like a cuck because he was saying, you think I can just go and buy X amount of million or billion in bitcoin,

I've got to speak to my compliance officers, compliance officer and they tell me whether I'm a lot of people. So basically poor billionaire man can't buy things. Yeah, but he was doing it like he was like it's cool, like it's like oh I've got a compliance officer.

This ship takes some turning around you, you and your little dingies, you don't realize with your outboard motors, how much it takes to do you. Exactly, it was all that. Was all managed. Well, sailor managed, but it made me...

Do all this cheeky few countries as well. I know, I mean it started to happen, but it does make me think like a lot of these guys just literally have tied themselves up, they've put themselves in handcuffs where they can't fucking move because they're so compliant and it's like well where's the tipping point

where it becomes, you know, because all this ESG staff and concerns about us destroying the planet, all that bullshit. Especially in today's age where it's like virtue signaling means more than actually doing.

Yeah. So like at what point does it become the thing everyone does? When the lights go out. You reckon? Yeah. It has to get that dark. They will not, I know these people, they will not move until something moves under them.

I sat, I was in a family, I had an inside, slight inside read on the COVID lockdown. So I had a guy inside on the military, not like a high up or anything, but he'd been warned off, he was a supply guy and he'd been warned, look, you're going to be deployed

in the UK, you're going to need to worry about the toilet roll, whatever the thing was, but I was told, look, this is coming, it's a big deal. Inside my family unit, it was not met with much, it was like, okay.

Still on the trains, no stocking up a food, no preparations. When Boris went on the telly and said you locked in your homes, they got it. They instantly, instantly got it. There are no preemptive lessons for this mass of voting people.

It will only end for them, their reality will only end when the things they believe in are seen to die. And I know that's a shit thing to say, but it has to die. It can't be that it's dying, it's got to be dead and not come back and then they've got to grieve for it and then they will move on and that they will inherit the least Bitcoin

because they will have had to take it, they'll have to take this system to its failure and the failure and the failure before they realize, ooh, maybe we've got this wrong, maybe we made a mistake.

Then I've not had direct experiences, especially baby boomers, learning about things ahead of time. They're very much a retrospective generation, head heedless and thoughtless in and then burned a little bit bitter and hard, not don't like to take responsibility on the way out,

but me and you know responsibility is real and when you have your responsibility back in your hands, it's a heavy feeling, but it's also an empowering feeling and they don't have that, they have to have a GP office refuse them, they have to have no food, they have

to have grid cut-offs and even then they'll associate that to the wrong things, they'll blame it on something that they politically agree with as opposed to something that they have to accept as nature like Bitcoin and it will stop when, same thing I and Rand said

about when you know throughout Atlas Shrugged growing dystopia, growing government reach when will it end, when will it end, when the lights in New York are out, when the whole of Manhattan is dark, I think that's when those people will stop, but that doesn't mean

I don't, wouldn't go as far as saying we're going to be in that reality with them because if we've built some contingents and systems and we are spread across regions and we are still relatively mobile and we inform each other of danger and we inform each other of

opportunity, which we've been doing, I am a massive beneficiary of the Bitcoin Twitter network and that was before we stuck Bitcoin up the arse of it, so God knows what happens then, what happens when our Ivermectin tweets start to generate capital based on the fact

that it saves someone's life, so truth is back on the menu and the incentive structure rewards truth now more than it would have done 10 years ago, but this thing out there has got to burn itself out, your way out is to emancipate yourself from it and be separate

from it, but also present and available to it, which is what we are here, I'm building something that can both break away and stand on its own or can rejoin and over to them whether they want what they want and what they don't want, but I'll do an L. S. Y. at

here, I'll burn the oil fields, I'll just stand up and leave, because I know there's no one queuing up for my job, you know, it's worth me doing it, but it's not worth anyone else doing it, and they need to realise that it's not a favour, it's not a favour, this

is me living my life, this is me self-actualising, and it's not ambitious, not Jack Mallers or whoever, like doing major big-dick moves, I've just got a little pleb bit, I've got some control over and I can apply the principles, I mean control of it and that's me, and actually that's enough, if everyone did that, we'll be spot on.

I think pretty great things can come of the plans that you've discussed with me, I wouldn't undersell it, I just think that you're with software, you're moving fast, not breaking things, but like Mallers and people like that, they're leveraging the Bitcoin network to

do great things, what you're doing is actually building in the physical realm. I mean, we're having a party, I'm bringing the tables and chairs, I'm the guy at the back with the transit van, not as clever as Jack, he's obviously a very talented man, he does himself down, the 27-year-old thing, I remember thinking like that, I'm a young

man, I'm a deserved imposter syndrome, but I think his confidence has gone up, and I think he deserves to go up, I don't think he's arrogant, I think he's right, and I think he's smart enough to know he's right, and I love it, I've seen an interview with him this morning

with Pump, I've got mixed feelings on, but I like him, I like him in spite of himself, and just moon juice, just pure moon juice, very exciting, and this is only the early stages, we haven't even recruited our best Bitcoiners yet, they aren't in the network, the polyglots,

the 175 IQ, where are they? There's a few dotted around, there's a few, but as a percentage of the whole of the fish tank, we are but a small, I think there's enough in the sample to think that there's going to be a bigger signal, there's a bigger army coming, what

I like about Bitcoin is because it's money, it's applicable to everybody, and it affects everybody, and so it's going to have to change everybody, and if that means using it on Twitter, like a text message, and like Jack says, it doesn't matter who you are, boomer,

it doesn't matter, if you just want to use it as a rail, you can, you don't have to buy the asset, we alone share in the network, if you're prepared to use it, and anything else that you decide to do on principles more expensive, so now you've got to pay to be a bigot, you've

got to pay to be ignorant, Mr Hanky, you've got to pay for the right, because now we're going to tip you in Bitcoin, and if you don't like being tipped in Bitcoin, you're not going to make any money, if you don't want to pay for things, you'll fold, you'll fold quietly

and late, late, I think the main problem with orange pill and boomers, and I don't mean to dig out individual boomers, it's the boomer meme, it's the mass boomer, it's not the individual grantee.

Yeah, there are some who are fucking... Everyone's got a loveable nano, grandpa or whatever, it's not going after the individual saying that there's a group here who have got a 51% attack, it suits them to print money because they're going to be dead by the time it doesn't affect them as much, it pumps their

bags now, and afterwards, when they're gone, they're atheists, so they don't care about what happens after they die, that's why they've wrecked their kids, and it's egregious, it's egregious, and these people are the ones who often stand on the moral high horse, and "Oh,

these young lot don't know what's what, no, you've ruined their lives, you've eaten their lunch, you've put the bar tab behind the bar and you've not told them", and then you're gaslighting them, you're telling them it's their fault, and they've got to throw into the middle and not be selfish.

What better definition of selfishness is a 70 year old who's had a good life, he's got grandkids, takes one of them, and because that child represents a threat to him in his own mind, injures him to extend that guy's life, in any other combination of circumstances

that would be considered at the very least bad form, and it's just become normal, I think it's because we're in an efficient democracy, and the median voter is a bit older, and therefore probably pro-vax, and the rest is just an out of control system, and people have got

no moral base, and don't understand the higher order effects of suspending medical autonomy. Do you think that this group, this younger group, this younger generation who have been fucked and fucked and fucked are going to, like, are we going to get this orange pulling

to a point where it's understandable by most people, be it through, I mean one of the reasons we started with 21ism was like, Bitcoin needs to be explained through art, through music, it needs to be, because it's how you explain a revolution, and memes are a big part of

it, and these sort of things, and so do you think we get to a stage where it becomes general consensus within a certain age bracket where people go, no fuck what was happening, I see you for what you are, I've seen your fucking hand, now I want to do this Bitcoin thing, fuck you.

If we get that, we'll be lucky. Any other time in history, there'll have been people, the bonfire, the vanities, whatever the mage, the thing at the time was was like, there'll have been a few of us remnant in the town square going, this is fucking bullshit, when the burning witches or some other madness,

McCarthy, you're a commie, why, you are a commie, get out of this, yeah, and then there's us going, this is fucking bullshit. Not often do you get a chance with low time preference ethics, you get to see an injustice righted inside of a lifetime, and the Stoics tell me I'm owed fuck all, and I don't have

a right to see this all turn into the end of a happy movie, go back to art, one of my favourite artists is Van Gogh, and the reason I like him so much, if there's one reason I like him, is because his life was dog shit, he had a miserable, unrewarding, horrible life,

it was as though God was playing cards to him, to discourage him from being an artist, and if you look at his art, it's very joyful, and I like the idea of someone who got dealt a big old ration of shit in a strange time, and his expression, and his reaction, and

his answer, his answer was beautiful, joyful, vivid, art, and I think if Bitcoiners can do that with their art, and they lose anyway, at least that's our, this is what we thought, and we got dealt a pile of shit, we had a broken monetary system, we fixed that as a

group, and then through our art expressed why it was important, and maybe, maybe we get the same, those artists, not me, get the same recognition as Van Gogh did, hopefully inside of our lifetimes, because that's nice, there would be nice Van Gogh visiting us now, would

be delighted at how he's received as an artist, but at the time he was hated, and for no reason really, so I suppose that's my answer to the Bitcoin art scene, is do it because it's, it's where you put your, it's where you put your colours on this fucked up map, and if

that inspires other people, all the better, and if that's outside of our lifetimes, or we have to spill a bit of blood, and if you lose a few people along the way, which might be the way this goes, I hope it doesn't, and I don't think it's likely, but if it did,

then this is the right way to proceed, to express yourself, and to capture the time we've got now quickly, well, well we're young, and we're able to express ourselves to do it, and the other thing is to say, for me is to say, don't, I don't fight much with these people, I do,

I do battle with them to get, to make my path through them, but I am not in the business of convincing people about Bitcoin anymore, I do think we're a minority in that respect, I don't think it needs to be a mainstream idea, I think that the idea is an axiom, and it will

force people to adapt to it, it's not a verbal, intellectual good use of a Bitcoin's time to be fighting up against zombies, it just isn't, it's just bad, it's a poor use of your life, and as the times where I've had the, the responsibility of being a leader and

taking leadership decisions, that isn't actually the way you motivate people by going into the face and telling them that you know what they should be doing, the best way is the, is the most selfish way, which is to make yourself fucking look amazing and be brilliant, or

you get perfect, or everything clean, or my equipment here stacked, ready, safe, contingencies in place, washed, dressed on time, and polite, competent, that is the example, and I think that instead of some of it is right to ship post, and to fight back against people who

are spreading misinformation and troll them, but more of it is to be a Bitcoiner in your life, and to live by the principles, and not be an internet lapper who then sits back into fiat habits, and try to ride two horses, but to try and be an example, to show what's better

to show if you're, if you're wealthy, healthy, happy, and you're into this Bitcoin thing, and you used to be a bit of a train wreck, or you had problems, whatever it was, that, if I was out there in that world, that's what would make me want to know more about Bitcoin,

not someone being a charity mugger, because we sometimes get ourselves into charity mugging situations, I might, if you've got a moment to speak about Mr Satoshi, fuck half I've heard about him 15 times, I don't know, better to be, not the guy in the Lambo, but to be

the independent guy is quite happy, and quite content, and got a nice wife maybe, and stable, and if you need a few queries, he's your man, and people like him, and that's who you want to be.

Yeah, we want to be that change, we want to be, but someone who people can wish to be on the head of the security, he's got a problem, or people, what do I want to say, we haven't said, it's not a fake movement, the relationships that were forming a reel, they've changed

my physical life massively for the good, and I'm going to put that much back and more, and that's really what I want to say to people that listen, I know the people that download your show, I know who they are, and I just want to see...

Because it's three people... It's three and a half people, yeah, no, it's the people we know about, it's our type of people, and I just want to highlight that I've really, really have been on my own up here, and I haven't been because of Bitcoin Twitter, and because of those loops, and I've recently

met Bitcoiners, and I'm looking forward to living and working with them, it's not a fad, it's real, and I'm moving on ahead, and I'm very aggressively running into the Bitcoin culture, and I'm not stopping going down the rabbit hole, I'm very much in love with it

as a subject, it's very much in my blood, don't know exactly when that happened, but and I just want everyone out there to know that I'm out here doing the same thing they're doing out there, and we'll be muckers one day, we'll be living with each other, or

least contributing to each other's prosperity and happiness, and I'm doing that, I will be doing that, though. I see that happening. Fucking try and stop me. Who's going to stop us, mate?

No, I see that happening, and I think we have been dealt a shit-hand in lots of ways, that's good, but we're going to turn that into beautiful art, that is what we're going to do. Yeah, what better answer than that?

You get dull up to load a shit in your lap, lose your rag, get sad, use it as an excuse to be a miserable bugger or whatever, or, I'll actually give me two more, I'm bigger than anyone else you did that to, and I'm now stronger because you did that, and you're weaker because

you didn't have to deal with it, and the ultimate one of that is fiat society, so we got a fiat society, we're going to flip it up. I massively appreciate you taking me here, I know that this is off-grid, not many people have been here, if any, and- If I can't invite you here, mate, I can't invite anyone here.

But no, I appreciate it. I'm glad you got here. I'm glad you got here. It's fucking gorgeous, and I look forward to seeing what happens, you know, from what we really do. You'll do that. Oh, we'll get some more Bitcoiners back here as well, and we'll do some more stuff, have some more chats, talk about some more stuff.

Thanks, mate. We'll close it out. All right, then. ♪ Just like it's a river ♪ ♪ I've been running ever since ♪ ♪ It's been a long, long, long, long ♪ ♪ Long time coming, but I know, I know ♪ ♪ Change has got a corner ♪ ♪ Ooh, yes, it is ♪

♪ It's been a long, long, long, long, long ♪ ♪ And I'm afraid to die, I don't know what's up there ♪

♪ Beyond the glides, it's better now ♪ ♪ Long time coming, I know, I know ♪ ♪ Change has got to come ♪ ♪ Only gets it easy, it's better now ♪ ♪ And I know, change has got to come ♪

♪ Only gets it easy, it's better now ♪ ♪ There's a time, I will go to my brother ♪ ♪ I've asked my brother, will you help me? ♪

♪ He turned me down, and then I asked my dear brother ♪ ♪ I said brother, I said brother, I'm dead on all my knees ♪

♪ It's been a time, long, long, long ♪ ♪ Somehow I thought I was new labor ♪ ♪ To try to carry on, it's been a long, long, long ♪

♪ Long time coming, but I've known ♪ ♪ A change is gonna come ♪ ♪ Just like I said, I went to my blue bitty bird ♪

♪ I asked my brother, will you help me? ♪ ♪ He turned me down, and then I go to my little mother ♪ ♪ My dear mother, hold down ♪ ♪ I said brother, I said brother, I'm dead on all my knees ♪

♪ I said brother, I said brother, I'm dead on all my knees ♪ ♪ Somehow I thought I was new labor ♪ ♪ To try to carry on, it's been a long, long, long ♪

♪ Long time coming, but I've known ♪ ♪ It's been so long, it's been so long ♪ ♪ I've lived too long, but change is gonna come ♪ ♪ Just like I said, I went by myself ♪ ♪ And standing up alone, but change is gonna come ♪ ♪ You know, and I know, and you know that ♪

♪ I know, I know, and you know ♪ ♪ And that'll change, you know it's gonna come ♪