Don’t Let Them Be Forgotten | The Confab 32: Lauren Rodriguez

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Welcome back to another ungovernable confab. Last episode was episode 31 with Rick Messet. If you haven't checked out already, go back and have a listen. We cover the free samurai lottery and much, much more.

Thank you to the boosters, Code who sent in 10,000 sats saying great show, free samurai. Late stage huddle with 10,000 sats, haven't even listened yet, already love it. And Bonesaw McGraw, who sent in 5,000 sats and said, fantastic episode, is there any reliable way outside of law enforcement to check what details of ours are circulating

on the dark web? Hashtag free samurai. Good question there, actually. I don't know. If I remember, I'll ask you on Monday. I'm sure there is. Today's episode is with Lauren Rodriguez. This has been a very long time coming.

I'm very happy that we finally have this conversation. I'll let the episode do the talking rather than a long intro. But before we do dive in, firstly, go and check out the lottery. Secondly, we have a new notes from the inside going to be narrated, and that will be released within the next few days, so look out for that one.

A big thank you to everyone who's been supporting the Free Samurai cause. Every little bit helps, and there really is no more important cause out there. Before we start, I wanna say a huge thank you to our show sponsors.

We wouldn't be here without them. We couldn't continue without their funding and support. So a big thank you to Foundation, Cake Wallet, and MyNimbox. If you haven't already checked out Cake, go to cakewallet.com.

It's what I use as my everyday mobile wallet. Everything I do with Monero, it has swaps, cake pay and just endless features. An incredible team that are on the ball and constantly keeping up to date with their security.

A big shout out also to Foundation who have been supporting this show for many years now. They now have their report out about the recent hack, and me and Q are going to be going into that in detail on Monday.

It will be live, so anyone who wants to join, please do. Please throw some questions our way. They are a sponsor, but I want to be completely open about things. And despite the information going out, they are still my hardware of choice.

I hope that anyone who did order took our advice, used a PO box, had it sent to army barracks, bought one in person or any of the other advice that we gave, join us on Monday and check them out at foundation.xyz as the yangs say.

And finally, MyNimbox, mynimbox.io. They provide hosting, VPSs, all with nothing but an email. You can pay in pretty much any cryptocurrency, and they are incredible at what they do. If you have any questions, you can reach out, but check them out at mynimbox.io, and enjoy the show.

Morning, Lauren. How are doing? Morning, Max. I'm doing well. How are you? Very good. Very good. Very excited to have you on the show finally. We've talked about having you on for a long time, and it's well overdue.

I just wanted to say, because I'm sort of lurking behind this image, if you wanna keep your camera on, you can. If if you don't want to, you don't have to, whichever you feel feel more comfortable with.

I I... Yeah. I don't... I guess I I don't really care. I guess I'm used to doing this on video, but I I... It's kind of... Or your... I guess it's probably primarily audio anyways. It's audio. Yeah. And everything we've done with Ungovernable has been as private as we can.

Much of it from being very early days involved and and listening to what Bill and Keanu were advising and where they saw things going. And so, we do things in the shadows a little bit. But, yeah, very happy to have you on. As I said to you, our fair, I didn't

want this to be something where we go through necessarily all of the court case and the proceedings and the the painful, horrible stuff that you cover day to day as you've become very much the face of this and, in the public eye and pushing things forward.

It's been very impressive to see, but I didn't wanna go through that. I wanted to do a little bit more of the human side and remind people two good men are sat in prison for trying to protect other people, for trying to protect people's privacy and push a technology forward in in the right way. And so I

wanted to hear a little bit about you guys and how you met and life before all this craziness. Yeah, well, first, you know, I do appreciate all the, you know, the continued coverage you guys have given it with with doing the reading of,

you know, his his nose from the inside and just really keeping it kind of top of mind for for your audience. So that's greatly appreciated. Kiani and I actually met in Chicago pre really him getting into Bitcoin or anything.

Definitely had libertarian leanings kind of still was back then still privacy oriented and freedom oriented. And then so we were together pre Bitcoin and he found Bitcoin. So, was a real use case for us because

you know, we're kind of moving and at that time, like arbiterage between different currencies was really expensive, not like today with wise and stuff that just wasn't really around.

That was a real use case and then on top, and then he got into like, wow, this could really change the world. This is sovereignty of your means, this is digital gold, this is free speech money, all the attributes that we've come to really appreciate or Bitcoin for, like he saw that and saw the potential.

And so I was kind of just along for the ride from the beginning, I guess. Were you the same way? Like you had these libertarian leanings. I'm pretty sure he mentioned it was from upbringing and past family stuff that pushed him that way. Were you similar or were you much the same as my wife where you're like, cool.

I get it, but it's not something I think about day to day. I definitely had those leadings. I think we got along in that way right off the bat, but not as my interest was never to change the world.

We'll say like, right? I'm more humble interests. I'd much rather just be, but very much the leave me alone, as long as I'm not hurting anyone, like I don't need you in my business. And that's just always been very attractive and obviously kind of privacy leading in that way, which is then all of this has obviously become a complete,

you know, it's just a completely different to how we were living our lives before, which was a quite, you know, humble, quiet, happy, you know, but existence.

You know, at the same time, I guess I'm grateful that I am able to come on platforms like yours and kind of keep their message alive because he did give me the opportunity kind of before he went to prison that like, because it was recommended to him maybe by Lynn, maybe by someone else, that, you know, it's important to have

an advocate while you're inside to keep your name, you know, because people have their own lives. If they're not reminded, you'll be forgotten. And he definitely didn't force that on me or even asked, it was definitely my, he gave me that choice, didn't, no pressure, but I couldn't do otherwise.

Well,

doing otherwise is definitely an option a lot of people would take. I think you know, you've got an enormous amount of pressure on you just given the situation, not having your husband at home and, everything that's going on, and then to take on this responsibility on top of that and go onto all these platforms and

do the talks you're doing and everything else. It's it's a it's a much bigger burden and stress, but it's incredible to see someone standing up like you are. So a massive hat tip to you for doing it. And I I think most people would crack under that pressure. So we've been doing what we can here and trying to, as you say, remind people

that good men are in prison, and they're imprisoned by bad men. And this is the this is the crazy thing that has drawn me into this world and stopped me from, like, walking away. So, like, so many times I'm like, yeah. Just... I've had enough.

It's almost like, every six months to a year, it's like, oh, let's let's just do a normal job, and let's just go and, like, do something where we're not constantly attacked and looking over our shoulders and worrying and everything else. But then the... If you do that, you know, like you said, you just wanna be left alone.

And that's kind of the default as a human being should be, we're left alone as long as we're, like, good people.

You know, if you're a bad person, you're gonna... It's gonna catch up with you eventually. If you're a good person, you're gonna have good friends and good family, and generally good things happen. And if bad things happen, you've got good people around you. And so that's the default. But if you allow what's been going on to continue,

it only gets worse. Like, it hasn't been that long. You know, you used to be able to just live your life pretty much. Like, they'd come at you and steal your money for taxes every year and that kind of stuff, and they'd get involved and things like that. But, otherwise, you were kind of left alone. And now with the surveillance state and,

you know, what we saw with COVID, I don't know what your stance was on that. But to me, it was... I mean, that really tipped me. That tipped me over the edge where I was like, no. This is just absolutely...

This is now like you're attacking our bodies as well, like our movements as well and everything else. So, yeah, walking away, unfortunately, isn't an option. Yeah. You're, you know, you're exactly right. The...

And right, both our countries thirty years ago, it would be unrecognizable, the surveillance and the authority that the state has over the minutiae of a normal person's life. And there is no option to be left alone, right? You're doing, right, Keoni and Bill. Built a company, followed

the guidelines as put out by, you know, FinCEN, the regulator. Stayed within that and it didn't matter. So it doesn't matter if you do the right thing, you know, if they want, they'll find a way.

It's not, as you said, it's kind of evil. There's real evil in the world and they want control and that's a sad and kind of scary thing. And right, it's something that I wasn't really thinking much about before this, like, And I've heard that from so many other people and right, not just crypto, but just this has opened me up to

other people that have had very similar cases, minding their own business, running their companies, being doctor, whatever it is. And then just the overwhelming weight when you're charged by the federal government and you're helpless. You really are helpless to fight against it

because I think the reason that is, is because so many people just don't want to believe that that could happen to them. And it's just the assumption that well, must have done something wrong. Right? They, yeah, I don't really understand it. But they're, we're just gonna blindly trust the government. And that's,

as you said, we saw that with COVID. And that was unfortunately, that's a large group of population. I think COVID did wake up a lot of people and hopefully, you know, more and more people will kind of realize that there's something wrong and this the way life's supposed But to yeah, so I do have hope, I guess, to that extent, but it's

a weird position to be in currently. It's... Yeah. And, it's... The problem is that both Bill and Keone built tools that were too good. There's a lot of LARPing and, oh, this is private and this does this, and it's like VC funded bullshit stuff that just, like, people will cheerlead

because they think it makes number go up, but it's it's nonsense. 99.9% of it is just absolute nonsense. But what they built actually worked, and they had a whole tool kit to protect yourself.

That was what first attracted me was, you know, spending time in the in the chat groups. I was spending a lot of time with, like, Bitcoin q and a and others who were like, this stuff's amazing. As, like, a nontechnical person, very nontechnical, probably the least technical person in the in the Bitcoin world,

I was, like, quite slow to process it, but I started to put these pieces together.

I was like, oh, so you've got Whirlpool, and you've the Samurai Wallet, and you've got all these other things, and then you've got the PostMix stuff, and you've got all the different ways to spend, and you've got... Was like, this is a real full system that sits on top of an otherwise flawed thing because the privacy thing is a real...

People can choose to ignore it if they want, but it's a real major issue that stops it from being a great tool. Unfortunately, like, I always saw it as if anyone's gonna be attacked,

it's gonna be them because they do things right, and they actually care about what they're doing. It's not just the money. It's not just for clout. It's, like, clear. This is built by people who care.

I wonder, was that something that they were both cognizant of while building? They obviously had the business. They took their privacy pretty seriously. They were known to a few, but not everyone. And what was it like living like that? Were you always kind of in a way looking over your shoulder or, like,

worrying? Or were you always kind of like, well, I think we'll be fine because we're following the guidelines even though the government are

horrendous. What was the sort of feeling leading up to it? Was it a total shock? For me, was. I definitely, like I knew what they were doing. I was very into what they were building. I don't think I could be married to Chiodi without, you know,

it was a passion. It wasn't, you know, kind of as you said, like it was a business and they had servers and contributors and stuff to pay. So, was like, you know, they're making money, someone, I think it was one of Keoni's interviews before he went in, kind of said like, so over ten years, you know, it was just under, I think 7,000,000.

And they're like, was not a money making scheme, right? Generally you think, and the charges, right, were conspiracy to money launder and conspiracy to operate unlicensed money service business. You hear that term and you hear the numbers that the government was throwing around and then you hear with actual what they made and that's,

you know, before any server fees and all that, and you go, okay, this is clearly was not about getting rich, It just wasn't. This is something that they fully believed in, you know, even

dropping the fees in the pools to make them more accessible. I mean, you needed to have a fee as I know you guys have covered for civil attack resistance and all that. So like it was more than that, but it The SCOs would come out and all those types of things. Always looked forward to those.

This was more than what so much of the industry has become to kind of focus on, which is the number go up. Like they believed in the attribute to Bitcoin that there was the potential for it to go up, but that wasn't their focus, it never was.

You know, so much of like bitcoin in the early,

I guess kind of language around it, right, is we're going to take on the government bring it down and all this and the government initially back in the day was pretty hostile to bitcoin but I think what changed and you had mentioned this before is

they realize, as much as they were against it, but then they realized, oh, wait, this is the ultimate surveillance tool. If we get people's information, KYC information, if we get them on the on ramps, then that's what they're perfectly fine with. Where they then,

that's why I think that they came after, as you said, it's because the tool worked because it broke those heuristics that protect people from surveillance. And again, not just, as I would say, it's not just surveillance from governments, there's as we've seen the uptick in physical

violence from criminals as well. So, but they don't care about that. They don't care about protecting people, right? They care about their power and maintaining their power. So that's them and Tornado Cash. That's why they went after these guys is because as you said, the tools worked.

And yeah, so as far as though, kind of my awareness of what was going on, you know, I trusted them. They knew what they were doing. They, again, were following the guidelines as put out and working towards, as I know you're well aware and your audience would be well aware is the decentralization of Whirlpool coordination

and all that. Like they were taking those steps and it really does, I think speak for itself what they had built is with Ashagaru, the open source nature of it, the fact that it's still out there, what they built.

And I think they're both proud of the fact that it's still out there for people who need it. It's just a shame that they're paying a price for something that, again, they didn't do wrong.

They've done the opposite of something wrong. They were protecting people. Like you said, when I first spoke to Kione, and it's before we ever met, so I still call him samurai. It's still weird even calling him Kione. But when we first spoke, a lot of the attacks and

issues he had with your private information being out there and problem he had with KYC was not completely theoretical. It was... It's not like there were no attacks. It's not like there were no problems. But the difference in the coverage, you know, me and q and a do a... Or two weekly shows now, but one of them is a new show. And, like,

half the new show is KYC data leaked, people physically attacked, another person tortured, another person killed, another person beaten, pregnant wife at knife point. The the crazy stories that you hear, a lot of it in France, but UK too, and all over the all over the place. And now with AI

and these hacks just becoming... It's a daily thing. I, you know, I turn my phone on in the morning. I go on to Twitter, and I'm just like, oh, fuck. Like, we gotta cover this. What a depressing topic.

It's all the things that you warned about whenever it was seven years ago, whenever we first started speaking or something. And, what they were building... And this... I think this is what's really difficult to try and get across to normal people.

I think this is why these types of conversations and all the work that you're doing are so important is because normal people can't comprehend, a, the government is just disgusting. They don't care about you. And two, there is a reason for these tools beyond what people would say like money laundering.

It's... Protects people's... Literally their lives, not just their money, not just their privacy, but their actual lives. And I only see this getting worse. I only see them being more attacks, and I only see there being more collection of more data.

And to me, at least, if this continues, the whole Bitcoin dream and idea for most people, unless you're sophisticated or you jump in and out of Monero or do other things like that and make sure you never put your KYC details anywhere ever, It's really dangerous.

Like, I I I don't even like telling people anymore like I did in the beginning. Oh, go and buy Bitcoin. I'm like, no. Probably don't. Like, just don't do it unless unless you really wanna dig in and, like, make sure that you buy off me in cash and, like, you wanna make sure you're private.

Just actually don't do it because I don't wanna be opening Twitter, and it's you that I see who's been hurt. That's the point that's hard to drive home is, as you said, they didn't do this for money. They're both extremely capable people.

We've seen how easy it is to make money in the Bitcoin world if you don't care about other people. It's very, very easy to make money here if you don't care, if you don't have morals, and there's a billion other ways that they could have made a lot more money.

And so what they've done is they've put their lives on the line to protect others. And I think it's now time that the other people in this space stand up and go, fuck. Okay. Now it's our time to protect them. And I think Rick, who was on the show last episode,

is doing a fantastic job with this lottery. I think that's brilliant. Like, it's it's such a great idea because it gamifies and reminds people. The video that he did was fantastic. The talk that he did was fantastic. It was...

Yeah, like things, I see things like that and it reinvigorates me and I'm like, yes, there are still good people in this space who actually care. And that's what's been so cool is, you know, obviously a terrible situation, but there have been people that, you know, they're not personally really affected, but have really taken it

on themselves and care about it in such a real way. And it's just, it's been very, you know, affirming in the goodness that there are good people out there. There are people that understand and care and see the injustice because it's kind of, you know, it's an isolating thing. Again, you're up against this all powerful state,

But then saying that like, no, there's good people, they see it, they care, yeah. And it's Rick, yeah, the videos he's put out are just So good. You know, world class and his speech was, yeah, way better than I could ever do. So I kinda just like let him

tell the story. And so, he's amazing and just, yeah, just great people out there and so grateful to them for caring and for putting their faces and names to it. Because, you know, a lot of people who do get it have been kind of, and I don't have any animosity, completely understand it, but has been

kind of put into a place that like this got real, this is scary, like you know, they recognize that like it's dangerous place to be after this happened. Like, so yeah, so grateful to you guys, to so many people, there really are, have been just amazing people that have stepped up, so.

Well, I think, you know, people who can are are doing what they can. It's... But it it always feels to me just like a a tiny, tiny dent in what needs to be done. And we're always racking our brains trying to think, like, how can we? I think the the notes from the inside series is brilliant for this because it's a constant reminder.

Firstly, the writing's incredible. I mean, I I chew my way through as a as a complete. It takes me forever to try and get through. And that's what part of the reason we do the the audio form as well. I think that there's other people

who also can't read too good like me, and, you know, having it in the audio form is great. But the writing is brilliant. I don't know. Has he always been a writer? Has he always sort of, like, followed that as a passion, or is this a new thing?

Obviously, he writes code and stuff, but it's different. Yeah. I think he probably has been. It's just not, you know, something that's really... He's had maybe the time to put into it, but no, he's amazing. He's very, very lucky.

But no, I love his... It's you saying about the kind of chewing through it because he sends them through the prison email system to me and then I put them in a document to then send on to Lola get them published in the rage. And

I just do a quick, you know, kind of read through because I really enjoy reading them as well. But there was, in this last one, there was some word he used that, and I forget what it was, but I actually ended up Googling it because I thought it was maybe a typo, but it wasn't. It's just,

that's his So yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, they're great. And it's been a fun thing too. You know, it's obviously a terrible thing, but just the way he can tell a story through the writing. I've definitely gotten the benefit of when I go see him, I get some additional

stories that maybe wouldn't really make an article and it's, you know, as terrible this situation is, he's had a really good attitude about it to try to kind of see the amusing parts or, you know, interesting kind of almost, and it really does seem like it, almost like a sociologist going into some, you know, untouched demographic

in some jungle somewhere because it's Like an Assemble show. Yeah. Yeah. I said to Rick on the last episode, there was a bit... It was obviously, as always, a sad reading, but it also made me chuckle. There was a part in the skin walker one where he was saying, you know, you've been given the duty of cleaning the bathrooms.

It just... It made me laugh because it was so him from what I know of, okay. I'm in a shitty situation here, but I'm going to clean these bathrooms in the most efficient, most effective system you could possibly make, and I'm just gonna do it the best way possible. And the way that he

was explaining, know, clean from the top and you go down and, you know, the system with the mop and all the stuff and this weird skin walker guy who comes in and leaves the things on and stuff. And I thought, the little that... We spoke a bit and we've met once in The UK.

And the thing I took away after meeting was he's funny. He's very funny and has a... Not what I expected from a dev because... No offense to most devs, but there's there's a lot of autism there, and there's a lot of, like, struggle with some of the personal stuff. But, yeah, I think that having that, ability to

laugh at yourself and laugh at a situation is probably extremely valuable in there. I I think if you didn't have that attitude, it would be close to impossible. So I'm, you know, I'm pleased to see that that is still there despite all of struggles and everything else.

Yeah. Yeah. I think when you lose that, and there are definitely guys in there, you know, who have either worked their way down or have just been into that and then you lose that and you get this like burnout where, yeah, yeah, it's definitely a possibility. It's, you know, it's

as much as he does make light of it, it is still prison and it's, and especially someone as you kind of said, the systems and like up his mind, I think that was the hardest thing, the just complete, you know, everything's backwards, nothing makes sense. Like this would never function if this was a private company.

Like the whole thing is poorly just managed in every aspect. I think that's, again, just because he sees it so clearly and how, you know, the steps you would take to fix something like that, you have no control whatsoever. So just having to accept it and go along with the true craziness of the way it functions. It's absurd. Yeah.

It's absurd. Is there any, now that he's inside and he's learning ways to cope with it and doing the letters and and everything else, do you think that in some ways this is less stressful than the lead up? Because it was a very long lead up to actual incarceration.

And I couldn't help thinking I've been attacked by the government in not quite the same way, but many times in my life in in different ways. And it's always the, to me at least, the letters, the legal, the bullshit that precedes it where it's clearly ridiculous, unfair, just complete madness, but you have this cloud looming over you.

Is there any relief in a way from either of you being like, okay, that part is kind of not fully settled, but it's not... There's not this looming part? Yeah, I think you're exactly right. You know, it's it was, it's heavy. It's heavy having this dark cloud over you and especially looking at twenty

five years and you don't know what new lie or new manipulation of evidence they're gonna propose next. And it really was, I mean, they were just

blatantly and there's no way that it wasn't intentional, like manipulating stuff and you're sitting there and being told,

you can't say anything because they'll use it against you. I know some people who have had, you know, in their court cases, they did speak up before getting sentenced and they got the judge put out additional sentences because they were speaking.

So, you know, having,

and then also kind of validating once the sentence was in and seeing how, you know, and other people have said this too that were in the courtroom, Frank Corva, who was following the case for Bitcoin Magazine at the time, you know, that there was a, during sentencing, you could like feel her hatred for Keoni.

He, I believe made some comment that like he'd gone to a Catholic school it and was like a nun, and he didn't realize that that's actually before she became an attorney for the in the Southern District Of New York, she became a prosecutor.

She was a teacher at a Catholic school. So, I mean, that's kind of, if anyone has that experience, that's what it was. And so after kind of having that, like, this was the right decision, this lady would have, I mean, and she did, she maxed out as much as she could in the sentencing phase, but to know that

this is where it is. And, you know, there's, I would say some just for the potential and especially initially when that, you know, the one reporter asked the president and

right, like before he got sent in or before he went in like about a pardon and there's been kind of hope around that and then leading up to the Bitcoin conference in Vegas and stuff like that, just different times that that was hard, kind of a similar thing, but definitely not having to,

I don't know, it's twofold. So yeah, so I guess it was reassuring that the weight was off and that there wasn't any more unknowns that the worst that was going to happen happened. But at the same time, I know for him and going into, because we had, I'm sure you covered this and, you know,

had, when they proposed this, the plea agreement, they gave them twenty four hours and they both had to agree or else, you know, it was void and they weren't gonna do it and they were gonna tack on extra stuff, all this.

So that was really hard because again, they, in his allocution, you know, they didn't do anything wrong and, but whatever. So that was still challenging, but, you know, there I guess, comfort in that they made the right decision with that.

Yeah, there's no doubt. You know, I think if you were looking at this from an outside perspective, I can understand why people would say, well, they're innocent. Why would they why would they take the plea? You know, what... You know, they shouldn't... They wouldn't get twenty five years. You know, they they they would...

That wouldn't happen. It's like, yes. It fucking would. Yes. It absolutely. Because this is not about justice. It is about making an example. It's about saying, listen. Any of you lot who think you want freedom and privacy and all the other good stuff that you could have had a hundred years ago,

if you do what they've done, you're going away. You're not coming out again. There was no doubt in my mind from looking at it that if they didn't take the five and the four, it would be 25. You know? And and it doesn't matter that it's wrong. It doesn't matter that it's unjust. None of it matters to the people who make these decisions.

And the general public are too stupid or busy to pay attention anyway. So it's not like anyone go, oh, that's not fair. So there was no option. It was take this shit deal or take an even worse deal. That's your options, unfortunately.

It was absolutely the right the right thing to do. And do you talk about, like, you know, because it's it's gonna happen. It's four years now until he's gonna be out unless Trump somehow does the pardon.

We can always hope, but, you know, how much trust can you put in politicians? You have plans for when he gets out? Like, you... Like, we're gonna stay in The US. We're gonna leave. We're gonna, you know, whatever. We're gonna start a company, just live our lives, drop off the map. Like Well, I mean, once he, if he,

if he's serving a sentence, right, if he get, if it's not a pardon, he'll have an additional three years of probation and there's also a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars fine. So, it's not, you know, it won't be done at that point.

It'll be continued on and they wanted, yeah, he wouldn't be able to like his mother's in The UK. I don't think they're gonna grant permission to go visit her or, you know, so it's kind of different. If there is a pardon, right, then done with and then there is freedom And he did say like, yeah, he needs a break. But we,

where we currently live and you know, where all this happened is very close to my family. Don't think we'd necessarily be fleeing. It's as far as what he wants to do, you know, he has, I'm sure that there's so many things he could do. I don't know.

I don't really know. And I've kind of asked someone if it's right, because like stepping outside of the Bitcoin space for this amount of time, even the amount of time up till now, right? It's been three years since they were really able to develop.

Things It's have changed a lot. I don't know if there would be kind of, if there's as much of a desire for what they would be interested in. Yeah, it'll be, I'll be interested to see where it goes, but just be kinda happy to have him Yeah. Have him home. So Yeah. Well, we gotta hope and pray for for the pardon. Is is there any

ideas that you have of raising awareness beyond what's happening at the moment any way you think? I don't know how these things work. Like, it sounds crude, but it's like, is it a brown envelope to the president? Is it, like, you know, you have to have something on someone?

Like, how does it, you know, because obviously Ross was freed eventually. Yeah. From my understanding what it comes down to and, you know, right to, we're filming right now and the elections were yesterday for The US for the midterms.

And the Republican Party did not do very well. I personally think they missed, you know, what was the coalition for president Trump's, last one, right? It was crypto bros, Jim bro, like the health side, you know, it was like all these groups that it's not...

They're just not super maybe

engaged, not even engaged, they just don't, right? They're trying to live their lives. They're trying to be like normal people and live their lives and not being obsessed with politics. But they saw that kind of what was up, that things were starting to affect their lives.

And so, you know, the crypto guys went to, you know, people were like, okay, he's saying he's pro cryptocurrencies. I'm gonna give him my, I'm gonna vote for that. He's, you know, gonna end the war on crypto.

The maybe health people that, you know, the backlash from COVID stuff where he had Kennedy. Okay, let's get on board for that. There's So all these kind of COLA, and it's not necessarily the president's, right? The US government's a lot bigger than just the president, but there was a lot of, you know, in my opinion, missed opportunities

from the Senate not passing things or this or that, but what they could have done, and maybe this is a very limited view, you know, from mine is they could have pardoned the... They didn't pass clarity, you know, for against whatever,

they didn't get that done. The president can't do that, right? He can't pass legislation in that way. That's not his role, but he could have ended the war on crypto. He could have freed the crypto prisoners as Len Aldrich says. He could have stopped, the prosecution of, the second prosecution of Roman Storm. So there's, to me,

missed opportunities that they left on the table. You know, I'm sure there's a lot of advice from a lot of different areas, but clearly it didn't work out for them. So going forward, I really don't know because that's from my, and again, have a very limited understanding. I'm not in these holes of power by any means,

but the play up to there was that like pardons, they grant pardons and right, Ross had like over a 100,000 signatures for his clemency. That took ten years for them to get that number. And it was so well deserved and I'm so happy he's out, but that's why they did it, right? They saw that we do this

and we'll get these votes. We'll get recognition that like, yeah, we acknowledge that this is unjust. Whoever was advising the president this, you know, the past couple months, I guess, didn't see that, didn't maybe see the numbers. I disagree. I think it would have brought in people to maybe actually care about this, the midterms.

So I don't, I don't know where it goes from here. I'm still hopeful. I'm, you know, there's, because I can't not be hopeful, right? But I don't, I don't know, it's gonna be, it's gonna shake some things up, I think.

Yeah. Not that anything was getting passed, but you know, it's just like, it's the industry, we still have people like Elizabeth Warren there, right? Who, Oh, What a little gremlin she is.

Yeah. Yeah. With the current situation, him being moved and everything else, how often do you guys get to talk? Like, do you get phone calls, visits certain amount? Like, is it very restrictive, or do you get to actually have some face to face time?

So they have... He has so many phone minutes a month that he can call me and this is, you know, obviously recorded, put some phone lines, the quality is pretty bad, but we do, you know, I think it's a seven minute call in the morning and an eight minute call at night. So

kind of divide it up like that. And he's about two and a half hours away from our home. So I go up to see him every other week and we do get to visit. It's kind of a big, it's not even that big. It's a dirty empty room with some chairs.

There's a, you know, CEO there. There's like not even a water fountain. This place is quite, you know, there was a mouse that ran through visitation one day we were there. It's like, it's, you know, but I get to see them. So it's worth it, it's not, definitely not an enjoyable experience, but

worth it. So that's every other week, get to see them in person for a few hours. Visitations are weird. They're Sundays and Mondays, 7AM to 1PM. And then again, two and a half hours away and kind of in the middle of nowhere, a beautiful part of the country, but not much going on.

Drive up, see him for a few hours, and then drive back home. Yeah. Yeah. And you do a lot of the talks and meetups and things to raise awareness. John was mentioning... I don't know if you know John who does the the minor show. He was at a Pittsburgh meetup with you the other day and, sent his love and and said hello.

How's that, like, being the face? As you said before, Keanu said, you don't have to do this. You don't, you know, you don't have to do all the things that you're doing, but what's it like being the face, doing the interviews, doing the talks, going to the meetups?

Is it something that you have to constantly psych yourself up for like, fuck. Let's just... Okay. Let's go. Or are there any bits that you look forward to, people you look forward to seeing?

I'll say I don't feel qualified to do it, but I'm grateful for any chance to get to talk to people. Is cool getting because I was, even though I wasn't like any kind of, I guess, personality or public facing, like I was on Bitcoin, Twitter. Like I followed stuff, I didn't engage, but I was very, you know, aware of

people and what was going on. So that's been cool getting to, you know, meet John, like that that was great. Other people as well that I've been familiar with or talked to online and then gotten to meet in person is, that's just always cool. Obviously I wish it was under different circumstances.

Q and A, met him in Vegas. He was there. So, you know, just different guys that again, have been known for years, but getting to meet, that's always cool getting to talk to people. You know, it's also been kind of what can be done now, right? As far as pardons and the people who have fun to talk to. And then, you know, remember one

guy said, you know, my dad, he came up and told me that his dad golfs with president Trump sometimes. And he said, I'm gonna mention to my dad to see if he could like bring it up. So just like stuff like that, that people, I think like that's a connection I would never have, right? I got to meet him there and he was willing to

say something. And that's kind of the things that people could do that's like, well, yeah, this is such a big thing, but the amount of people that happen to know, you know, oh, I have a aunt that works in this department of the I'm just gonna mention it to them or, you know, I'm

gonna post on X or I'm going, you know, just things like that. I'm gonna call my Senator's office and bother them for a while and say, Hey, this is something you should care about too. I think those are the little steps that, you know, my hope is that will make enough noise, loud enough to get the attention to be like, okay, let's

just do it. Let's just pardon them so that they go away. That's kind of my hope now. Is it like of separation or seven degrees of separation or something like that? You know? Someone knows. There must be, like you say, those type of things. Maybe if you still know that guy's, details,

we could do, like, rather than our free samurai hoodies and t shirts, I could make him, like, a little golf shirt or something. So when he next goes and golfs with Trump, he can have he can have a little golf shirt or something. Yeah. There's gotta be someone who knows someone.

And I always wonder with these things, like,

how it works. Like, is it something where the present can just hear it and go, oh, well, that's obviously, like, completely insane. Because I think, you know, if you... If you're not a complete idiot and you spend five minutes looking into what's going on, you would go ridiculous.

Like Yeah. And I think he would. Right? It's just the matter of the fact that he's the president and has how many layers of like advisors before things even get to him. But like it's the same department, right? The Southern District Of New York or the exact same Department of Justice that went after his family,

he would get that. He would get like everything about it. And, you know, I really do think he'd be like, yeah, that's messed up and would grant the pardon. It's just getting to him, getting it on his agenda, getting the paper in front of him.

That's where the, you know, because he's, and Angela McArdle, who helped get, you know, was part of the process of getting Ross his pardon, said, you know, the president Tornow, he said he loves freeing people. Like that's something he actually really enjoys doing.

It's just, you know, and we've seen that they have granted a lot of pardons. It's just getting on that list on his radar, you know? And that's what was so cool about before he had to surrender them mentioning his name, you know, on that press conference.

But he said, yeah, oh, looked into it. Then she was gone like a month later. So it's like, you know, he's relying on his people around him, but then things change so quickly that just really kind of, you know, and there is some kind of psychology and I think it's like an advertising

comes out of that world that like, you have to hear something. It's a really high number, like maybe like 14 times before it really clicks. Like, so you want them to constantly and, you know, you gotta figure that's gotta be even more with someone in his position to keep it in front of mind, yeah, to have the chance.

Absolutely. Well, that's why it's important to do these lotteries and do these, talks and just keep reminding people in all the different ways. And, yeah, I have some faith that, you know, at least if he does hear it, he will say ridiculous.

Like, there's no there's no possible way you can look at it any other way. And people can think what they want about Trump, but he's not an idiot. And so, you know, he he should be able to see that.

We are leading up to this new lottery. I think there's already a couple of million sats in there. And, I think the last one did 10,000,000 or something like that, which was which was pretty good.

Just a reminder, like, what needs to be raised for legal fees, for anyone listening here who might have, short arms and long pockets. You know, a reminder from what we've talked about that these guys literally put their lives on the line for you. So can you just remind them

why they might want to enter this lottery and and where the money goes and why it's needed and the legal fees and the costs when they get out as well for anyone hasn't been following. Yeah. So, there's definitely, you know, legal debt.

We were so grateful for the defense firm that kind of came on and took it took Keoni and then Bill had his own legal for it. Like, this is just how these things work and to fight. So like, we didn't go the whole way trial, right?

But to fight, we would have to fight a complicated case within the Southern District Of New York, the average that you would be spending is about $13,000,000 per defendant. Jesus. Which is Yeah, I mean, we never had anywhere close to that amount of money. So,

you know, so grateful that the firm did take us on but but there is legal debt there. And then in addition to that, you know, both Keoni and Bill got the judge maxed out the fine of $250,000 That's after a forfeiture that they paid of the complete

earnings over the lifetime of samurai. So there wasn't anything to like pull back on that was part of the plea agreement. So yeah, it's unfortunately like that's part of, I think the government's kind of, that's why they do it this way. That's why they brought charges. Right, there's no, Samurai didn't have any entities or

live or work within the Southern District Of New York, but that's why they bring these cases there is to just absolutely cripple people. So yeah, anything that people can do to help with that is so greatly appreciated.

Yeah. I feel stupid now saying, Oh, what's your plans when he gets out if there isn't a because I don't forget this, but I'm not living it. So

that point of once you get out, you also have these debts. You you you have a noose around your neck. You have... It's not like, okay. I'm free and I'm free. It's I'm out of jail, but I'm I'm not free because I'm still got all this bullshit that...

They're still attacking me. Oh yeah. Yeah, they'll be able to show up, he'll be on probation any time, night or day, someone can show up and just enter our house and we have to like, yeah, there's, it's, you're not, you know, any kind of like, so when he was so grateful that he wasn't held,

he was able to be home during the trial, but right. I had to give up like, you know, have my handguns out of the house. You can't have any of that there here. There's just all kinds of things. You can't have alcohol, not that, you know, big drinkers, but like, there's just so... Yeah.

When you're out of prison, you're not free by any means. And that's... Did you say three years after... So they they have they have the power to just enter your home. They they can control your life in all these ways, and then you have these costs.

I mean, obviously, no one listening to this. You can you can't really do anything about those three years, but what you can do is try and support financially and take some of... Try and help with some of the financial burden, because that that is a huge, huge amount of money to

to be taken. And, like I say, I've already seized everything they've ever worked for anyway, and, it's it's it's, you know, it's an impossible... If I didn't know him the little I know him,

I would think for most people that is just completely crushing, and you just become a shell of a man, and you can't continue. And I think that that is their general goal is just let's just crush the soul of these people.

And they won't manage that, but, hopefully, we can try and help and make that easier at least. So, yeah, I would I would suggest, obviously, any any stats that come this way for this part, they go straight on. And I think the lotto is is a good place to start. I would go there, and I'd suggest if you do win, maybe consider,

sending those stats as well. I don't think that happened on the last one, which is a shame, but but maybe it will this time. Any insight into what he's thinking with everything that's going on? Is he following...

And when I say everything going on, I don't mean the case. I don't mean prison. I mean, like, the crazy Bitcoin world since, I don't know, six months ago with AI stuff, all these attacks, hacks, does he follow any of it, or is he just like, you know what? I'm not... I don't wanna even think about anything.

So I also, it's kind of twofold. A friend had, and I think it's since crashed, was connected with him on the prison email system had written a, I guess it was just like an AI scrape, news scraper for kind of Bitcoin news I was sending him. Occasionally he was getting like updates. Don't know if that was still active or not.

And then also, it's like weird things with they had like two computers available for the person email system for, a couple 100 guys, not a couple 100, sorry, like 100 guys, and it's in the television room. So they lock the door sometimes and not as punishment, because that's not allowed, but it's as punishment.

And so like, it's, he doesn't have regular access to the prison emails system. So it was kind of on that occasionally, if there's something interesting I'll pop up and, but I'll say he's, I think he's been pretty, I think they've been pretty vindicated on, you know, especially their stances on

why open source was so important. That it's not just about being source viewable and source readable that you need to actually have different teams kind of having at least the incentive to work on the same code base to find these vulnerabilities.

So, you know, not to throw, not here to throw shade on anyone else, but, you know, they got a lot of, Keoni and Bill both got a ton of flack and, oh, you guys are jerks, you're so rude, this and But I think they've completely been proven justified.

You might not have liked how they presented things. It's not the way I present things, but you know, it was done from a place of, you know, passion. And I think, yeah, has one out that they were correct in a lot of these assessments.

They were absolutely spot on from day one, spot on about the attacks that would come, spot on about why you can't have KYC, spot on about what happens if you do, where the privacy space is going, spot on about how soft and weak and pathetic most of the Bitcoiners are,

spot on about MVK being an absolute prick and the the source viewable stuff was gonna end badly. Just over and over again, yeah, the way they presented it to me was hilarious. Like, I loved that there was this kind of pushback to the kind of... I don't know what you call it. Like, if Bitcoin was punk rock,

it was becoming more and more and having that red team mean stance to sort of push back and, like, keep people in check. I think, like, that was incredibly important, it's something that I miss seeing. I miss the cutting remarks.

Keoni had said to me when we met, oh, sometimes I have a few whiskeys and just get on Twitter and just, like, just just go and let loose. And, you know, I think that it was... To anyone who knew them,

it wasn't mean. It was they care, and, also, it's it's kind of funny, and people need a bit of a slap. And I just hope that people can sort of read through and not take everything quite as it's written always and see that actually as a record of these predictions, pretty

much perfect. And and I hope that people see that and go, okay. That's the reason that they're doing this, and it is to protect people. And I don't know where to go other than what we've covered. I I I just wanted to, you know, say hi.

I wanted to let you know that we're here to support in any way that we can, and I know it's small, and I know there's there's just so much to be done, but we're here for anything that you need and just a huge amount of respect for everything that Keanu's done. You know, he's he's an incredible man, and

it's incredible to see what you're doing standing by his side and protecting your husband. There's not many people who would do what you're doing. So if there's anything that we can do, you can always reach out. And, yeah, we all love and respect your husband very much.

Well, thank you so much. And thank you so much for having me on. And again, for your continued, just keeping their story and their names out there and the fact that they're still in prison and kind of being a voice for them while they can't be a voice for themselves. It's, you know, I think that's really what's gonna make the

difference, I hope, in the end. So thank you. Absolutely. Before we, close things out, where can you point people? Obviously, have all of this in the show notes as well, but where can you point people to, to support?

The best place to go is billandkeoni.org. And from there they can find links to sign the petition on change.org as well as ways to donate. So that's and you know more about the story. So if they aren't as familiar, if they want to share and kind of tell other people that's all the information's there.

So that's probably the best place. There's also free, if they wanna actually kind of dive deeper into the court case, there's I think freesamurai.com or I

think that's a dot. I'm not sure what the dot is. You'll have to check on that, but that has, they've built a really, really cool site and it's a link to any of the public court filings. So like if people want to get kind of a deeper, deep dive into the case and kind of see some of the crazy stuff, that's a great spot to go. Okay,

fantastic. All right, well, if you can just stay on the line for a second so I'll make sure I, get all the recordings, that would be great. But thanks for joining me and everything that you're doing. It's really inspiring.

Thanks, Lauren.