Ungovernable Podcasting | The Confab 26: Barry & ChadF

Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.

Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking zero.

Yeah.

Hi to all of the ungovernable misfits. John here. Max has lost his voice and is too sick to record this intro. What a pussy. So you have me instead. Here are the boosts from the last confag with Chet.

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Good morning. Podcasting royalty in the building. If you say so.

Barry and Chad, the two people that I think of when I think about podcasting two point o, Zaps, Boosts, any of this stuff, the two kings. So welcome to Ungovernable Misfits. It's been a long time coming. Barry, we've been on your podcast. When was it about you or something like that? Yeah. Something like that.

The whole crew were, I remember. Yeah. And Chad, we've spoken through the boost, but never in person. So welcome to the show. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. Well, I wanted to get you both on together because I wanted to talk through the future of independent podcasting, where this thing goes, basically. And obviously,

you guys have a lot of crossover. There's a lot of crossover in the groups that we're in. And I think some of the views that we have in terms of skill sets and the things that you guys are building, there's crossover as well. As I said before, like, when I think about this stuff and who's tinkering and who's building

and really understands it, I guess like what I see is the pure vision of podcasting two point zero and people being able to create without being controlled and owned, I think is really the goal, isn't it? So maybe it'd be good if both of you can do a little bit of an intro.

Barry, maybe we can start with you. I'll just do a little one is that you run Podhome, which is what we use for all of our podcasting. We've been chilling it quite a lot recently on the show to people who have been reaching out and asking for suggestions because in this world,

especially in the Bitcoin world, there's a lot of LARPers. There's a lot of people who talk and very few people who do. But I just wanted to say before you do your intro, we're really, really happy with what you've done. And just having that personal touch,

being able to have usually Jordan reach out and ask a question or suggest something and really be able to work like hand in hand with you has been incredible. So thank you for that. Oh, that's so sweet.

Yeah. So two years ago now, I think I launched podhome.fm, which is a podcast hosting platform. The goal was to create something that makes podcasting

easier and is able to keep it free as in not free for no subscription fee or anything, but free as in you can put anything on there as long as it's kind of legal. Just, you know, be nice. But if you have an anti system message or whatever, come on over. We host lots of people that have been kicked off of other podcast hosting platforms

just because those platforms couldn't afford or didn't want to stand up for freedom. So we host those people, which does mean that I'm kind of afraid to travel to some countries. Maybe The UK.

Yeah, The UK. Definitely. No, seriously. My ex wife is English, and so she goes over a lot also with our kids. And I never go with her because I don't know if I can actually be arrested. I don't know. Well, quite a few people have been. Yeah. I fled

The UK and I really would rather never return. We might go back in a couple of years for Christmas just to see some family and stuff. But yeah, it's it's very Orwellian. Yeah. Yeah. So that's now two years ago. Since then, we have lots of podcasters that host their podcasts with us. So most people host multiple podcasts.

You can host as many podcasts as you want for the same subscription fee. And basically, the stuff that we built is stuff that I kind of want to use myself and mostly what people are asking of us. So like you say, Jordan usually reaches out and he has an idea or something like, hey, can you guys make it easier so that I can do X, Y, Z?

And I sure will build it. Currently it's me. It is Jorgen and Martijn who are two freelancers that I hire to do support and build stuff as well. Yeah, it's going well. We host lots of Bitcoin related podcasts as well and also lots of, you know, normies that just want to host their stuff from all over the world. That's fantastic.

I think all us three here, we're doing the same thing, right? We're trying to make the world kind of a better place in our own way. And we do that at scale, as in you podcast. So when people listen at scale, thousands of people literally,

they can improve their lives or they get inspired or they learn something. And then they go out in the world and promote those positive vibes. And the same with you, Chad, as well. You do it in your own way,

I think, and also influence the world at scale. I think we're kind of on the same mission there, which is great and very, very needed right now. Yeah. Completely agree, Chad. I mean, you're probably the most influential person when it comes to the boost and

like hammering when we used to be, for example, just using fountain and we'd say, oh, yeah, we're using fountain. So, well, are other platforms. This is an open thing and trying to explain in all your booths and introduce us to other people like Spence who came on the show. And this cool like group of people who are really leaning into

podcasting two point o boost and apps and all that kind of stuff. And every time I speak to Jordan, I'm like, what what is Chad doing? Like, I don't realize it's it's all goes a bit over my head. And he's like, oh, mate. He's like building his own application and he's doing this music

thing and there's all this stuff that he's building. So as I say, it goes a bit over my head, but maybe you can do a bit of an intro and let us know what the hell are you doing, mate? You're everywhere. Alright. Well, thanks for the kind words. Really, I'm a podcast enthusiast, and you mentioned Sir Spencer,

and you had, John talked to Boo Berry Mhmm. A while back too about some music stuff. And the three of us and a lot of other kind of the group I run-in, we all kind of came up through the Adam Curry School of Podcasting, I guess you could call it. Like, I've been listening to

No Agenda with Adam since, like, 2010. And that's where all this value for value stuff podcasting two point zero and just kind of like our kind of like our principles of trying to make podcasting open and kind of like the last place where like you can truly have free speech. So

like, I've just been following Adam for years. So when podcasting two point zero started five years ago, I jumped on board basically just as a listener to kind of help test stuff out. I kind of made my home and kind of like testing a bunch of the apps out because we were using existing

podcasting apps that were adding the new two point zero stuff. So like chapters and transcripts and then further on, like the lightning stuff. And that stuff just kind of needed tested. And I was already using the apps and listening to the shows that were adding that stuff.

So I just kind of jumped in there and then kind of got orange peeled when we started sending Bitcoin around. So I went through the whole Bitcoin rabbit hole. And that's actually how I came across your path, Max. Years ago, you go to that Bitcoin rabbit hole and you just like start listening to every podcast. Oh, yeah, you can.

Yeah, try to take it all in. Yeah. So I'm just kind of been following podcasting two point zero from like a listener perspective and just trying to piece a bunch of the stuff together, like kind of coming up through no agenda. And with Adam Curry and John C. Dvorak, like they're like truly independent, they own their own infrastructure

and everything. So trying to take that, like the independence of podcasting, and then add these new two point zero features and try to add some Bitcoin stuff. And now trying to add some Nostril stuff, just trying to squeeze this together, really. And then like you mentioned, DMU, which is decentralized music.

So we took like, basically took the podcasting two point o spec and said, hey, this is just artwork and MP3s.

So why can't we do that for music? And that's what we've been doing. It's the same thing, but for music. And we've been trying to build now with that. And that's kind of like when Boo Berry was on, we were prepping for a show. I really like that, though. That was just before you were doing your show.

And John's really into his music as well. Those two, yeah, did a great job. I really enjoyed that one. That was cool. Yes. I'm just like I mean, I'm just a a podcast listener, really. And then I kinda yeah, I'm just trying to piece a bunch of this stuff together.

And then like I crossed your path just listening to Bitcoin podcast and then Barry's in the podcasting two point o space. So that's how we cross paths. And I've just been trying to bug bit corners for the past five years that there's more out there than Spotify, YouTube. Yes.

Yeah. Even fountain. Yeah. To a point because it's centralized. It's good because it got a lot of people on board, but it also hurts us because

people think that's the only thing out there. So I've just been harping at podcasters and Max, you're one of the few that listened and actually took some advice. We're trying. Yeah. It's a lot. Obviously, I don't have a podcast, but I hear a lot of good things about what Barry's doing at Pod Home. I don't know.

Like, we're just trying to keep podcasting independent, I guess. I think what a lot of podcasters miss, what they don't have genuinely, I think this is the big missing piece is they don't have a Jordan. I have a Jordan and he is like the tech whisperer between me who's busy recording,

still trying to wrap my head around Bitcoin stuff, family life, editing,

trying to like manage what we do with the artwork and doing all that kind of stuff. And I'm not particularly tech literate. Like I get the vision, it's cool. But I have Jordan who steps in. He's like, hey, you need to move. You need to move all your podcasting over here to this guy. Just trust me. And I'm like, alright. I trust you.

He's like, okay. Now we need to be doing this. Now we need to be changing that. And I think genuinely, if people did understand

podcasting two point o and keeping things open and where to host and what to do and don't just use fountain and blah blah blah. I don't think they're against the idea, especially with a lot of the Bitcoin guys. It's like they want this decentralized thing. They don't want to be owned. But it is quite complicated,

or at least it is to me, to piece all of this stuff together and get it working. Even from the beginning with doing like the fountain stuff, which has really been quite simple,

we still have a lot of glitches and problems and stuff in terms of people being able to send or boost or us being able to see comments. And I know not all the comments come in from someone else comments on a different platform. It's not coming through.

So it's taken a lot of time for me to try and wrap my head around it. But what I can say is the vision of it, firstly, having a place that you can speak freely.

I say stuff and we get banned on YouTube. We get like a strike or whatever, and that's not acceptable or whatever. We probably have our days numbered. We probably don't have a big enough following on YouTube for us to be crushed yet because most of our listeners aren't on there. But you sort of know, okay, that can go.

But you have this safety net of, well, okay, they can go. But we still have people being able to listen everywhere else. And I can kind of say what I want, especially being a NIM that makes an even bigger difference where you don't then worry about, which is a crazy thing to talk about.

Like the beginning of show was saying like you land and you put your feet in London and you don't know whether you might be arrested for something that you've said because it might have hurt someone's feelings. I think now more than ever, we need to have this freedom to speak, not with the concern of being put in a cage,

not with the concern of building up a huge audience and putting all of your heart and soul and effort and time into something, and then have that snatched away from you just because someone in Silicon Valley doesn't like the fact that you've said something that goes against their views.

The whole thing is really important from both of you. Where do you think we are along the lines in terms of the state of the ecosystem?

Because I think you guys probably are the right people to talk about this. Do you think we're on the right path? Do you think we're going in the right direction or are there some big problems? I think we're on the right path. So there's basically two major pieces there. So the first thing is keeping it free,

as in that you can say whatever you want. Hey, we do our best here. But if the Dutch government decides that they do the same stuff as The UK, I might have to close shop at some time. But still, all of your stuff is in an RSS feed and you can, of course, also host it yourself, for instance, or move it if need be.

So that is always a possibility. And also, Podhome is not decentralized, of course. We're a corporation, so it is central with us. But we are, at least I think, a trustworthy company as we also host so many, let's call them displaced voices.

And our values align with, for instance, yours, and I think with lots of other people as well. So that's one piece that at least we and also other hosting providers. Also, Fountain is now also a hosting provider. I'm sure they also still try to do the right thing there, which obviously is very difficult because they are in The UK. Yeah.

Not not the place to be. No. But the second part is the whole value for values fair. So what Fountain is known for, where people can send you boosts.

So little pieces of Bitcoin with a message that's kind of messy right now as the technology is changing and it's difficult for apps to support creating a wallet easily for our listeners and then have them put some money in there and then zap people. That's difficult problem to have. So that audience is relatively

small, the people that actually are doing that. Now, we obviously are in a bubble, and most of your audience here for the ungovernables, they are people that have those wallets, of course, and they can send you stuff and as well for for the DMU audience for you, Chad. But most of the normies have no idea what that is

or want to use it. They're scared of Bitcoin or micro transactions or whatever. They think they're gonna be scammed and they're gonna lose all their money or something or Russia's gonna win or whatever it is.

And so there's a huge audience that is not capable to do it and not on board to do it. But I think at some point, we will be able to send fractions of fiat money to each other as well with The US exporting their inflation with stablecoins.

Be it as it may or whatever you think about it, it will enable us probably to do a similar thing that we do now with value for value with Bitcoin, but then for our stablecoins that might not be free, as in that might also be beholden to the stablecoin network dudes, which are Fether or

Circle or those types of people that are heavily controlled, of course. But still, I think when that happens, then normies could also get on board to send fractions of sense and stuff at very little fees to podcasters,

and that will open up a lot. So I don't know. What do you think about that, Chad? Yeah, I think this whole thing's been on the right path for years. But me coming from the no agenda community,

like, we kind of knew all this years ago about, like, actually owning your content. Like, you can use YouTube or, like, Spotify or whatever, but don't let that be, like, your main place that you're podcasted.

Maybe you do. Maybe you don't care, which is kind of part of it too. Like in the Bitcoin space, I kind of see it's almost like YouTube culture kind of wants to take over the podcasting stuff where podcasting is

counterculture in a way, I guess. I don't know. Like, there's kind of like a purity to it. Mhmm. Like, I love just audio only. Me too. Yeah. Like, when I started listening to the podcast, I mean, it was I'd open up iTunes on my computer. It would download the files. I would plug my iPod in, sync it, and then go listen to those shows.

Like, that's the essence we're trying to protect, I guess. That also has to do with treating your podcast as a as a company, being an entrepreneur about it. So Yes. Lots of people like the Ungovernables, for instance, they actually own their stuff. They have a cool website and they treat their podcast as a business.

And lots of other people, including lots of Bitcoiners, they kind of like franchise holders. They shell it out to YouTube or something, and then maybe they get a little piece of ad revenue or whatever it is. Maybe they close shop at some point or whatever.

That's not a real business. That's just a hobby. I think that's a big difference. Yeah. Yeah. True. Like, even before Max moved all the ungovernable stuff over the pod home, like he's been using like an actual podcasting host for years and stuff. So like he's kind of been on that path to we used Lipson previously.

Oh, Lipson. Horrible. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's better than using Anchor, which a lot of Bitcoiners still do. But that's a different like when podcasting two point zero started, it was because Apple owned the index for podcasting.

Like, Alex Jones got kicked off. And since all the podcasting apps were pretty much using Apple's index, Apple removed Alex Jones,

so he was gone from all the apps. So that's actually what spun up podcast index podcasting two point o kind of the same thing, like podcast index is like the index of all podcast feeds, then podcasting two point o is kind of like the features and stuff. So we sucked up all those RSS feeds from all over the internet.

We had people just like combing through stuff. So like we built this big directory so that it can be independent so that if some platform kicks you off, if your podcasting app still uses podcast index,

you can still be found in the app. Or you can even just go right to the index and just get the like we used to do ten years ago, probably even more where you'd actually just take the RSS feed URL,

paste that into your app. So like you don't even need that index connection that was solved four years ago, in my opinion. And we've been kind of fixing the index and adding stuff to it over the years. And then the Bitcoin stuff comes in as a PayPal alternative because kind of in like the no agenda ecosystem,

PayPal is kind of what we've been using for years. And I actually still have like automatic PayPal donations that go out each month to podcasters because the Bitcoin stuff's fun and I really enjoy it, but you can't pay like your server costs with it. So a lot of us still use PayPal as well.

But the Bitcoin stuff was as a PayPal alternative that we added. And then like a bunch of us, including myself, got orange peeled from it. So

like we're kind of down the rabbit hole and think Bitcoin outside of the podcasting stuff. We're all in on Bitcoin. You know, we're all that stuff. But we're also trying to add it in these apps, which

is a nightmare. See, I'm a value for value maxi where the Bitcoin is just a tool. So like if it got turned off tomorrow, we would still be okay. I mean, you can go back to PayPal. You can do checks in the mail if you wanted to. Like a lot of people have PO boxes you can send stuff to. So I think the independent stuff's good.

The Bitcoin stuff is for a lot of technical reasons that I don't have enough time probably in this month to go over. So, yeah, Fountain Fountain runs all their own infrastructure. They pay for listener wallets, and it's great. It's easy onboarding. All the other apps

started using a couple of different solutions, but everyone started using Alby a few years back, and it was great. You could actually open like Podverse,

hit like the Bitcoin section. You could sign up for a Albie wallet right there in the app. You get your wallet, you buy stats on strike or cash app, load that wallet, you're good to go. Everyone was happy. You had one wallet across like six apps. Onboarding is not like the best. I mean, we were figuring it out.

Plus, we were all new to Bitcoin anyhow. So to me, it was just sending money over the Internet. The Albie Hub switch like a year and a half ago basically killed the lightning stuff in podcasting two point zero, in my opinion, because Albie wallets were no longer free and you had to spin up Albie Hub in some way,

which basically meant you pay them more like you would like, I run a lightning node. You run it on your own, can't you? Yeah. I just installed Albihub on it. So it's the node with Albihub on top. And that's how I do all the non fountain stuff. Not a lot of people want to do that. It's a pain. But for all kinds of technical reasons,

that's just kind of stuck and has been kind of dead for a year and a half, but it's kind of picking back up now. But I don't know. We have like a lot of Bitcoiners. We have a lot of podcasters that like the boostagrams and stuff and like sending little bits of money.

But they don't like they don't necessarily get like the Bitcoin part of it and not even from like the philosophy of it, but like the technical side. I mean, it's a committee kind of at the end of the day, like to get any of the stuff actually added I don't know.

We just funnel everyone in the fountain and then fountain has issues and then everyone's up in arms.

I don't mean to shit on people, but when it was suggested to me to move across a company who was it might have been when I was recording with Q and Q was like, oh, yeah. You know, Fountain is starting to do hosting now. And, you know, do you think you might move? And I was like, fuck no.

I'm really happy where I am. And if I do have problems, it tends to be with Fountain. If we upload something, I'll put a show out. If I get a message from Jordan saying like, oh, fucking hell. The show hasn't gone out on this platform. I just know that's gonna be fountain.

And so my view on that was like, well, fix the thing that you are working on the first thing. Don't start the second thing, and I'm not gonna be moving across to something that I can't rely on. And the shuffling people over to them is something I've been guilty of.

Not guilty of, but like something that I've done, especially in the beginning because that ease of use and like you're saying, you have these Bitcoiners,

they understand this 21,000,000 of the things. They understand maybe some of the more financial side of things, but a lot of them are not technical. Even the ones who talk about technical stuff are actually they're less technical than me.

And so when you're telling them, oh, yeah, just like run a node and put Albie Hub on there or host with Albie Hub. I host with Albie Hub and it's like 10,000 sets a month or something like that. Yeah. It sounds right. Something like that and it works. I'm very much like if someone's running a service and there are fees

for that service, if the service is good, then I'm really happy because I'm like, cool. I'm putting some stats in the pocket of someone who's doing something great and it helps me. But I don't think a lot of people think that way. A lot of people who are like Bitcoin is so obsessed

with, I wanna keep as many of these stats because they're gonna be worth x that I don't wanna ever spend them. And then by doing that, they damage the ecosystem. And they spend in the fiat world rather than spending in the Bitcoin or wider cryptocurrency world, which I think is very shortsighted.

One of our new sponsors, MyNimbox, who are fucking amazing, they can do all types of hosting and you can pay them in any type of cryptocurrency and you don't have to give any of your personal details and things like that. These services that most people overlook ifwhen you say a thing or you do a thing that a government doesn't like,

it suddenly becomes very important to actually not be giving all of your personal information over. And it becomes very important, as you said, to actually own the business and not be relying on

one of these companies to say whether or not you can actually post the material that you're putting out. So I think there's a bit of a disconnect there, and I don't know how you get over that. I think some of that is actually a corruption of Bitcoin culture more than it is a corruption of like a podcasting listener

based culture. Yeah. Yeah. And kind of like for me, like I'm in the middle of a lot of this. So I kind of see what the Bitcoiners are doing with the podcasters that use Bitcoin, the podcasters that aren't using the Bitcoin. I'm just, like, trying to filter a bunch of that. But the Bitcoin stuff, like, should be easier.

But, like, the real reason, just in case anyone cares, is we chose Keysend as the lightning implementation five years ago because it's basically a push payment. So you just send it in kind of a higher level view. So you just send it. There's no like back and forth between your wallet and their wallet. Just It's push.

Yeah, it goes, it works or it doesn't like that required a bunch of people to spin up Lightning nodes because this was four or five years ago. Running a Lightning node five years ago is very different to running a Lightning node today. It is very.

Yeah. This was before Fountain, I think, was even a company. Us early ones, when we first started doing this, we were running nodes, opening channels, all that stuff. We were in the key send world and we're still in the key send world. And it works great if you're using Fountain or Alby that support Keysend.

But all of these new wallets like Strike, Cash App to a point, I guess, like the Promo wallet, any of these NWC wallets they use, I believe it's LN URL is what they use to send the payments and the two just don't match. Like we have five years worth of podcast feeds that have key send addresses,

but only two wallets do key send and Albie's the only one that's like open and like kind of free to use to a point. And then we have all these free wallets

and kind of like the Nostrad Bitcoin space. They're like free to use, but you can't pay them. You can't send lightning payments to Bitcoiners because we're using Keysend. And we're trying to fix that. But like, I don't know. Like, we're a bunch of podcasters trying to fix it. And we've got 30,000 feeds

that need updated, but like people have to update them. It just kind of like it comes up every couple months and everyone just argues about how we're going to do it. And then it dies down. And here we are. This is from a like a totally nontechnical standpoint.

As a podcast, we also have like XMR chat has become quite a big part of a lot of our shows. So So that's not even Bitcoin, but it's totally separate thing where we get these messages come in. Then you've got key send, then you've got LN URL,

and that seems to be where you've got these arguments going on. Is there not some sort of clever way that you can I think standardising obviously is going be difficult because you just argue from both sides?

But is there a way to have all the messages and SATs or XMR being built into some type of wallet that can accept all of the different options of it like a wallet can receive Bitcoin or Lightning or Monero

or other currencies? Is there not a way to build something where in one? Definitely. Yeah, there is. Okay, of course. Yeah. But the thing is, I think we are so early right in. Let's call it crypto land,

Bitcoin Monero. And it sounds like we're not, but like a year or two years ago and still people are being prosecuted for creating software that has to do with cryptocurrency.

And now that has kind of eased off ish. So only now people are starting to build again. And like me, for instance, I can't build anything because I'm in the EU and in The Netherlands even. So I need bank licenses and all sorts of crazy stuff. Otherwise, literally come raid my house. So we're still super early.

So if you imagine this space ten years from now, when all the banks also provide crypto services

purely because they also want to make money off of it, then wallets will be more available to normies. There will be lots more different wallets, lots more different SDKs and things that developers can use to create this type of stuff. And I think things will become way easier

to build this stuff. Does that not go against the ethos of free and open? I get it. Banks wanna make money. I understand they're gonna muscle in and do their thing. But anytime I hear, like, banks are getting involved and you have the fiat rails built in, I know it gets easier for the end user, for the other 99.9%

of people who aren't in our bubble. But along with that ease comes the corruption of the thing that we're trying to do.

It means you're doing a deal with the devil every single time. It's face scan, need your ID. We need proof of source of funds, proof of source of funds from where those funds were. Where did you get the bitcoin from? From here, you've got to send that through. Okay, well, where did the funds come before that?

And the hops that you have to go through for everyday life, like me recently purchasing a property, was the most fucking disgusting being on trial. I spent forty days just every single day, me and chat gbt, basically working as a lawyer to unfreeze money from different bank accounts, trying to fucking sort all this shit. And I'm like, you

cunts. Yeah. All I'm doing is raising a family and working. I'm not doing anything nasty or hurtful other than maybe some of my words, and you are making my life so fucking painful. And that's now. Yeah. When I imagine what things are like in ten years, if the banks are muscling in and you've got pretty apps that are gonna do things,

It scares the shit out of me. Is there not a way that we can do this in a more cypherpunk self hosted? I know Chad, you can say, we already kind of are, but like a more accessible way. Because

as I say, it it scares me. Yeah. But that's kind of what I'm saying. So we don't have to use the bank solutions. Obviously, we don't want to. But by then, there will be lots more developers in the space because it's not so scary anymore. And there will be lots more, let's call it plumbing,

to work with, like the Breeze SDK you have now. But there will be lots more options that you can do for self hosting wallets, self hosting networks, stuff like that. So I think it will be alright. Obviously not in the EU, but, you know, maybe somewhere else.

Obviously, you know, no. Yeah, really, the wallet stuff comes back like what podcasters are putting in their RSS feeds because, I mean, you're saying this is how I want to get paid. I mean, you can put a promo address

in your feed. You can put strike cash app. You could put those in because, like, looking at it from the podcaster side, they understand like, hey, got this feed. It lives here. I can go in through my host like pod home, change a couple things,

or I can do it fully DIY and I can put in whatever I want. But then kind of looking at it from the Bitcoin side, they don't even know like they have a feed and that you can add these features to it. Trying to marry these twos. Interesting.

But and we try to do that with the hosting side just to make it easy, right? We just have a little switch where you can say, you know, monetize with value for value. And we try to explain, you know, you can get a wallet from here, here and here, and you just put the address here and that's it.

And then ask your listeners to press that button. Still very difficult. It's actually like really easy from the podcaster side.

Listeners more difficult. The listener side, it's you either get your hand on some form of Albie Hub or use fountain. You can use true fans as well. Yeah, definitely. I'd like to see like multiple addresses in your feed,

but that also needs, like, someone to kinda suggest how to do it. And then someone has to put it in their feed, and then an app has to test it and everything. Multiple addresses also easy. You know, we just have multiple boxes for Pothomer.

You just cram it in there. I wish we could create a wallet in the Pothole Player app, but that's once I touch that stuff, then personal from the liar comes to my house. Looking at it from, like, the value for value perspective, you can do what Max did when the Bitcoin space got kind of iffy and you can switch over to taking Monero.

When he did that, like a lot of people were shitting on him. Oh, yeah. You're not a Bitcoin Maxi. You're not, you know, whatever. But like, if you look at the numbers, like people are sending like good amounts of money through that. So like, obviously it worked.

You're like, hey, we'll take Monero if people want to send it and people send it and like, that's the value for value thing. So like kind of I guess going back to like the Bitcoin legislation stuff, you have multiple payment routes.

And if one gives you issues, you can pivot to do Bitcoin and Monero. And Barry has an app now and it doesn't do lightning. But there's a thing called the funding tag where Max, I don't know if you know this or not, but your XMR chat link Mhmm. Is in that tag. Yep.

So if you go to the Pod Home app, I feel what the icon is, but there's a funding icon. You hit that button. It takes you right to that XMR chat page. Yeah. People can support you that way. So like there's options. Yeah. Like you have to be open for them and kind of like know they're there.

I guess kind of like trying to push these features into more of the limelight. It's been a big one for us, the XMR chat one. It pays for our hosting. It pays for loads of different bits and pieces that we need to run on Governmental Misfits are actually covered by the XMR chat. And I think we definitely get more per

listener sent through, like by a long way. Maybe we've even have more in total come through from XMR chat. And I think that is a cultural thing again, since I started doing

the Monero monthlies with Seth, which again, I got massive fucking attacks for, which I don't care about. But it's like people very upset by that because how dare you have someone on who has nuanced take on cryptocurrency and actually understands this stuff quite well. I think a lot of it was just it was a new audience coming in.

So with it, they're like excited that you're talking about this stuff because a lot of people in the Bitcoin space don't want to. So I think a lot of it comes from that and the cultural thing of them. There are guys they want to spend, they want to use. They really do think of it as cash, not an investment, as a general rule at least.

So I think that is just more of a cultural thing. And I think it's cool just to have as many options as you can because we can't use or I won't use anything that comes in in fiat because

then I'm no longer a NIM and I can have all the problems that come along with it. So it's not an option for me. My guess is if you are asking if I could put on a PayPal thing or if I could put on some sort of other fiat option like a cash app or something like that, my guess is

that the fiat listeners would actually send in a lot more than the Bitcoin listeners. That is my guess. I can't prove that, but I think it is a cultural thing. And the big change I see is when the price goes high, we get a few more boosts.

When we have the dips like we do now, we get way less, so much less. People

are like, oh, this hurts. That's kind of funny because when the price goes down, I tend to send a little more. Oh, really? But that's more because I'm kind of like, it's still like the same dollar amount. Mhmm. I know that, say, $1 is worth more sats now. Yes. The like huddle culture in Bitcoin

is something that we see a lot, like, especially like the music stuff. Everyone's like trying to get people's Bitcoin. Everyone wants to keep their Bitcoin. They want to earn Bitcoin, but like they also want people to send them Bitcoin. So it's like, it is what it is. We're using Bitcoin, but it's not about Bitcoin. It's about supporting

content you like. And that's like with the Monero stuff. I mean, you're going to get shit no matter what you do. Yeah, It's gonna just happen. But it's like, hey, people are supporting me Mhmm. With this. I actually bought Monero for the first time to send to you guys because I was like, oh, this is cool. I'm gonna send some in.

And I wonder if other people like having to go through the hoops to, like, buy Monero if maybe that's why the amounts are higher because they're like, well, I got to pay a fee and kind of jump through this hoop. So I'm going to all right, let me buy $20 worth of Monero.

You know, I'm just going to send all of that because I might forget about it or who else is going to take it? It comes and goes and like it's hard for people to even stuff's expensive out here. Yeah. So like, send anyone.

That's actually one thing I appreciate about what like what you do, Max. Like, you read all the boost amounts. Like someone sends you 100 sats. Mhmm. You're reading it. Yeah. That's as important as someone send in like 100,000.

Mhmm. Like, it took time out of their day to send that. And what is the value of the message to me? I mean, obviously, it's just great if we have a larger amount because it goes and helps us pay for editing and all sorts of things. It's brilliant and we appreciate it, but I also appreciate the messages that come through.

Some of them are really heartfelt. Some of them are really funny. We have like some running themes and jokes and people who dive in with all sorts of things. We have the live shows where people are asking questions. The booster while I'm on the show right now. Exactly. Like it's a connection. It builds a connection.

It builds a group and it flows over to things like our Meshtadale. It flows over to the mining mafia. And this is how these groups meet and talk. It's how we're speaking now.

It's how then people go to events like Lake Satoshi and then they actually meet in person. And so it is that connective tissue between all of us. And that's why I appreciate it so much. It's changed the whole way that our shows go out completely

from before I started doing podcasting two point zero and boost and stuff. The shows were completely different to what they are now. It's had a massive influence on what we do. That's the value. And I think you're right that with Fiat normals, they send a lot of money. So we have this donate page now.

And as a podcaster, you need to onboard your stripe. So give them all your information and your firstborn child, and then you can receive some fiat money. People are having success with that. That goes directly into the funding tag. You click on it in a podcast app and then send some dollars, euros, whatever it is.

But it's been live now for a week or so, two weeks. I see hundreds of, let's call them, dollars change hands, which is really cool for podcasters. But obviously you need to KYC

and you're dependent on Stripe. That's the problem. But maybe it's not a problem for everyone. No. Even in Bitcoin world, I don't know any other. Maybe Gabriel is the only other Nim Podcaster.

I would say, you know, most people are they've got their face on YouTube. Everyone knows who they are. They know their name. They know where they are. All that kind of stuff. Yeah, don't think it's I think it's me and it's Gabriel. I don't think anyone else is a nim podcaster.

So if I was in that position where they already know my name and they know my face and whatever, would definitely be accepting fear. I mean, I've still got to pay bills in fear. So

there's no shame in that. I'm no purity test type. Yeah. Like, I'm not really that concerned about the privacy stuff. Like, I'm already doxed. Like, I started supporting podcasting two point zero and interacting.

Like, you know, like my name and stuff got out there and it's like it's not really like that big of a deal. But I understand the privacy thing. I mean, it's just your choice. How much of that you want to like reveal?

Mhmm. Yeah. Same here. I'm really on the system, obviously, with the business as well. They know where to find me and my money. Of course. And even here in the if we talk Monero, that's going to be an illegal currency here from $20.27 privacy coins.

Oh, lovely. Yeah, lovely. Don't know how to enforce that, but, you know, well, the other question is like, you know, if you're a new podcaster and you have the benefit of listening to this type of conversation and you're thinking about starting.

Because we get loads of people reach out actually, like I'm thinking of starting a podcast. Can you give me some advice? Where do I go? What do I do? Blah blah blah.

The bits of advice are gonna be like, depending on what you are talking about, you probably need to think about which jurisdiction you're in and probably shouldn't be Europe. And our friends are now going to prison Samurai boys for writing code. So maybe it's not America either.

What sort of tips would you guys give in terms of starting something? Obviously, self hosting side not being tied in anywhere.

Like if someone has the time to plan and think about this and own the stuff that they wanna own and not be shut down. What tips have you guys got? I'd say use a hosting platform like Pothome, for instance, obviously.

It's not self hosting. Shill alert. Shill alert. But, you know, treat your podcast as a business or as part of your business. Something that tells something about your business or why do you do it. Right? So get to why right.

As in, what are you trying to achieve here? Are you just trying to, you know, play radio man? Or are you doing something else? Selling something, promoting privacy, freedom, something like that. Get your goal clear. Create a business around it. Treat it as a business. You don't have to start an LLC or something, but treat it as a business

and treat your content as super valuable. So own your content.

Make sure that you have all your recordings and all that type stuff and put it in an RSS feed through Pothome or by yourself self hosted, which is way more difficult. But you can definitely do that and set it up properly with a proper website. All the features, funding tag, enable value for value, stuff like that.

But that doesn't have to be that complicated, right? You use a platform like ours or if you just, you know, read about it, what the funding tag is and what value for value is. It's not that complicated. Not really. You can just set it up as a podcast from the podcaster side. It's pretty much Okay.

You can just get started and then, you know, get a rhythm and make sure you're consistent in posting and not have several months between episodes, which I'm guilty of as well, because then listeners go away. Just get started and treat it as a business. Yeah, I think just using like podcasting two point zero host

like Pod Home is like a good place to start. Like there's other hosting companies that you can do. I mean, like fountains doing hosting now. Like you can do video and stuff with that. That's fine.

Like you can, you know, you got Pod Home, you got fountain now. There's like ones that aren't like as focused on maybe the newer features because they're older host. So you have like rss.com, Lipson, Booberry. There's a bunch out there. I would say just use a host and don't use anchor slash Spotify because it's free,

but you're not going to get any kind of customer support and they don't care about you at all. So I think like what Barry's doing, trying to take these technical aspects

and like, just try to like, make it easy. Like just give someone a user interface and they might not know about these features when you're setting up on Pod Home. And there's a box that says you can add this and like, they might not know what it is and they can get info or they can ask him. I mean, that's kind of what you're paying for.

Yeah. There's also tools out there. Like if you don't want to pay for a host, but like you still want some control, there's sovereignfeeds.com that it's kind of the same. Like you just enter

the information, it builds the RSS feed for you, and then you just host it somewhere. Like most people just would have like a dream host or like, I guess wherever you would host your website, they just dump it there, add it to podcast index and apps that use index, pull it in. Like, I'd say just go with a host first if it's too expensive.

It's up to you, like as a podcaster. But like, if you want to take it like, seriously, you're gonna have to either put in a lot of time, like, sell your soul to Spotify or

Mhmm. Pay someone like Barry that does this for a living. I mean, podcasting is, such a beautiful medium, and people, I think, kind of take it for granted. Like, with podcasting two point o, like, you can just add like, I remember five years ago, like, when we added chapters, no agenda while they're doing their live show.

They do a three hour show twice a week, and they actually have artists making art while they're doing the show, and then they pick a piece of art that becomes the show art for that episode at the end. The value for value thing, some guy stepped up and said, hey, I'll make your chapters for you. So Mhmm. He makes chapters for the show,

you know, over a three hour period, you know, cuts it up kind of like ungovernable stuff is and then puts that art in like the chapter art.

So as you're listening to the show and they're talking about, you know, some news topic or whatever, it's a nice little chapter, which makes it easy, like to skip around. But then like you're seeing a piece of art someone made also.

Yeah, I love that. We had that like over four years ago. Like that's like an old, like baked in thing. And like, people are still like kind of discovering it. You know, it's like, hey, you can make chapters and people can skip around or you want to be real bold. I mean, the ungovernable stuff, you can even skip the ads.

You know, it's like, I've heard this cakewalk ad 20 times. Skip. Skip. Skip. Or like more technical stuff with like shows you do with Q or like the freedom tech. Skip that show completely. Skip it. Yeah.

Only joking, Q. We love you. Like the more technical stuff, you can break it up into chapters.

Like, if it's something like I don't care about, I can just skip it. And I know that I'm not going to like miss part of the overall show or if like you're kind of going on too long or whatever, like you just skip it and then you can add cool art and gifts to it. And it's like we can take this beautiful RSS

podcasting thing, add a bunch of cool stuff to it and make something, you know, that's counterculture to YouTube, where, you know, you're putting a thumbnail up, you know, with your eyes wide and your mouth hanging open like Stupid.

Yeah. Like you're going for clicks. The chapters are one of my favorite bits. I know it's not new to you and you've done it for a long time, but since we started doing that because I love art, I love creating and obviously Mr Crown as well. And so when we get the chapters coming through from Jordan,

he like nicely splits it up. This is the theme of this part of the chapter. Being able to create and put stuff out there and adds that extra layer and connect with the audience in another way, whether it's like a funny image that sort of captures the theme of what we're talking about or something more serious. I think that is

the perfect amount of visual. I wouldn't want anything more. I don't I don't like watching podcasts. I like listening to them. But just sometimes when you flick across to that chapter art,

it just adds something special. I really, really like that part. Yeah. Like whatever it's about, you can also then link to whatever that is in that chapter. So like if I'm some new story or whatever you guys put in and I'm looking at the chapter, I can click right there in the app and go right over to it.

So like you're not digging through show notes or all this other stuff. It's just there's, like, so much potential there that I think people miss out on. Like, I I don't think people take their podcast serious enough. And that's not like you have to be, like, militant,

but, like, kinda like what Barry was mentioning about, like, putting it out the same time and, like, just like trying to be consistent and then take it serious, I guess, from like a business side. But then like when you do the show, you can goof off, do whatever.

Take it seriously, I think is the point. And I think again, there's a reason that people don't take it seriously or don't fully invest in it. And it's because making a podcast profitable, maybe I'm just not very good at it, but it's really fucking hard.

And so for most people, certainly for me, it's something that you do after you finished

your fiat day job. You squeezing it in where you have time and you're already tired. And as a general rule, I mean, I've done this for whatever it is, seven years or eight years or something like that. And at least for the first seven, it was just a straight loss. Like, every month, I'm like, oh, good.

Let me just make sure that I definitely lose loads of money and spend lots of time. Let me make sure that that definitely happens. And now we're like, let me just make sure, like, we're breakeven, but we work, like, sixty hours a week on it. Let's do that. So thinking of this thing as a business financially,

I think, is really, really difficult. Thinking of it as a business in terms of how you structure it for a long term goal. I think that's the point is like, don't treat I would anyone who says to me, oh, yeah. I'm thinking of starting a podcast and quitting my job. I'm like, no. No. No. Take a second job

and then do it. Like, don't quit one. Take two because this is gonna take time unless maybe they're they're doing some sort of clever open mouth, you know, clickbaity stuff. But I think, like I said, the running it like a business and looking at this as like a long term thing is definitely important, but it's tough.

Like, I don't even mean like business as in like, you're going to make money, like kind of from some of the stats I've heard, like most podcasters, they're not even worried about making money. They do it as a hobby.

It's something they enjoy doing. You know, if someone sends them some money,

cool. Like some podcasts aren't even worried about that. Like people just have stuff they want to talk about or, you know, hang out with people. Yeah. They're not even worried about making money. You're not going to make a living off your podcast. It's not going to happen. And like, I see that on the Noster

side, lot of times people are like, want to make this into my day job. It's like, well, like,

you're not Like, it's not gonna happen. Good luck. Like, you can do a show that you get a lot of enjoyment out of. Maybe someone will listen. And that's why I also said you should get your why very straight before you start this. Why are you doing this? And that doesn't have to be make money because almost no podcasts

actually make money. And 80% of all the podcasts never get past 10,000 downloads

in their whole lifetime. And that's okay. If you reach, let's say, 10,000 people, 10,000 downloads, let's assume that those are real people. That's a lot of people. So if you want to reach those people with a positive message and that's your goal, that's fine too.

As long as you do it mindfully and you set out that that is your goal and not that you have some weird goal as in, yeah, I want to reach millions of people and make never have to work again.

That's not going to happen. Yeah, there's not many Joe Rogans or these big shows. The why is the the huge bit and that sometimes it's easy to forget that or at least for me. And then the way I do it is I remind myself, if I'm ever like, oh, fuck. This is tough. Like, let me just do something else. Like, like, no.

You have a reason you're doing this because you care about free speech. You care about being able to say these things. You care about this movement. So that's why you're doing it. And then it's, well, how impactful is it? Okay. You're not a Joe Rogan or you don't have that sort of like enormous

following. But sometimes I think, like if I'm in a stadium or something like that, I go like, I speak to like this many people and they're involved in the show they're interacting.

How the fuck else would I be able to speak about these things and have conversations with so many people and be able to like put a thought out or learn from other people? Never like I'd have to knock door to door nonstop twenty four hours a day, seven days a week and do nothing else and probably have a twin

and I'd still not do it. So there's again, it's like value. It doesn't have to come always from the financial side. There's value in the connections as well. That's what I tell to lots of podcasters as well when they ask, as in, you know, if you have 1,000 people that you reach,

which doesn't seem like a lot maybe to some people, but now put those people in a room. Thousand people. That's a lot of people. A lot of people. And if you can keep your workflow simple,

so don't do video because that's a huge production. If you want to do that right and make all the elgos happy, which you don't want to do, It takes a lot of time, and that's unsustainable for most people. You're not a TV production show, and most people just do this by themselves. They don't have a Jordan or a Mr. Crown.

Yeah. Yeah. And kind of like Jordan helping you out and other people. Like, that's kind of part of the value for value thing as well. Like, you wouldn't be able to pay Jordan. No way. No. Like, he's happy to help. A lot people just they spread themselves too thin. I'm really against video podcasting.

Like, can't put any money into it, but you can, like, buy like a couple $100 camera and, make sure you have this fancy backdrop. So, like, people know, like, you're legit. You can dump a grand in your video setup,

but, like, you can't spend $10 to host it somewhere. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. That's a good point. Me kind of being in the center of a lot of these like little circles. It's kind of interesting to see like everyone's perspective

on stuff and like kind of what people care about when it comes to doing a podcast. I'm out listening to a bunch of podcasts like about podcasting

to kind of like see what people are saying. It's interesting. Like, don't see how you would ever start this plan on like making a living. But I think a lot of it comes down to the post production stuff. I know it's a big difference in, for example, if I do a show, if I was to create lots of clips

and sometimes I'll like sit and make videos to go away along with the clips, like artwork and stuff to make it more visually interesting. And I focus on putting this out on Twitter and Nostrad and blah blah blah blah blah. I do see a difference in the numbers.

So I think that is a big way, especially if you're newer to like pull people in is if you or someone else are actually really good at all the social media stuff, which we are definitely, definitely not because that's something that is supposed to fall on my shoulders, and I'm fucking awful at it and hate it and can't be bothered.

But the odd time where I do it, it does make a massive difference, like little YouTube shorts or whatever it is. And I do wonder whether, like, again, that can be maybe something that's linked into podcasting two point zero or this kind of culture

where I've said many times to Jordan, I'm like, I'd happily put like bounties out where I say to people, like, it was a simple system where I could say, right, I've got a bounty. Everyone who makes clips, we've got 10 chapters.

I need 10 clips, one minute long. Do some video to go along with it. Do some art to go along with it. And I'll pay you some stats. I'll boost you back if you're sharing them. That sort of stuff, if there was a way that the audience can be more involved in doing some of the creative stuff

and we're actually sending stats back to them in a way that would be systemised in some way. I would do that tomorrow because it's a thing that I think what certainly I miss and a lot of other people miss, and that is how you grow an audience. Unfortunately, it seems to be like social media is the way that most people are growing. We do

more from word-of-mouth, but it's a very small niche circle. I think word-of-mouth is how most podcasts grow, to be honest. Like you might come across like some of the like celebrity podcasts on like YouTube and everything, but like the smaller stuff, it's like, like who's out there searching for something to listen to? I don't know.

Think like cross promoting or like having guests and stuff on or like having shows for different topics if you can helps. But I mean, really, it's kind of like your audience. They're kind of your best PR. The funny thing is like a lot of the Bitcoin stuff, we're not really social media people. So that always falls flat. Yes.

For people, it's like, well, how to promote my show. It's like you make a good show that someone tells their friend about. They might listen. They might not listen. It's definitely a slow burn. Yeah. Building a podcast is very slow from the beginning. Should not expect that you get a lot of audience from the beginning.

And the reality is that most normal people, they look at their glass square all day. So you need to get in there somehow. Get seen on the glass square. Unfortunately, as a business trying to sell stuff, that's super difficult because also that's too normal people. And I hate social media, and I need to be on there. Unfortunately,

that's how you reach people. I'll give you a little twenty second pitch if you can, please, Barry. Not twenty second. Go as long as you want. Why should people come across the pond home? What's it been like building it? And where are you going? What things are you adding? Why should people go and put their trust in you?

Because as I said at the beginning of the show, we have and we've been very very happy with it. For people listening who maybe are thinking about moving,

maybe you're using one of the other hosts that we mentioned before and scoffed at, why should they move? I think there are two major reasons why. The first is we will not kick you off of our platform if you say something that hurts somebody's feelings or something. If you keep it kind of legal, you're fine.

And that's important, I think. The second one is we try to include as many features that you might need as a podcaster in one subscription that is, I think, reasonably priced, which is $15.99 US dollars a month or 185 a year. And that means you get unlimited podcasts and episodes,

as in you can literally host a 100 of shows with hundreds and hundreds of episodes if you want. There's no download limits or upload limits or anything like that. You can also use unlimited Pold Home AI, which is a thing that you turn on when you upload your episode.

It generates a transcript, chapters, detects people, creates clips,

does show notes for you, all that type of stuff just to make it easier for you. And you get all the things that you might need as a podcaster, like a website is generated for you. Embeddable player if you have your own website, for instance, a donation page like I already mentioned.

And there's all these features like chapters and transcripts. You can even do live podcasting. All that type of stuff is included in the price. There's no add ons there. It's just that you can get all that. So those are the main reasons. It's a very complete and modern platform

that's reasonably priced. We're not going to kick you off and we keep listening to you very well as a user and a customer, and we try to make it as easy as possible for you. So for instance, we noticed that lots of our users find it very difficult to configure their custom domain for their pot home website.

So you can flick on I want a website and then you get one of our URLs.

You can also configure your own custom domain to it, which obviously then you need to do something with your DNS settings, and it's a technical thing. So we're revamping that whole process to make it way more easy and like a wizard type of thing. We're adding stuff like that on all the time.

What we're going to do next after this is create a little artwork generator,

cause I think the AIs are now a little bit better at it. So when you try to create a show or an episode, you can just say, you know what? Generate something for me and we'll give you a couple of options and you can iterate over it a little bit. And it might not be exactly what you want, but at least you have something.

Then maybe you can edit it yourself or something and re upload it. So stuff like that just to make it as easy as possible for you to create your podcast. That's kind of our goal. Very good. I can confirm. We're very happy with it. So go and check it out, podhome.fm.

And Chad, talk to me a little bit about your vibe coding and all the crazy stuff that Jordan keeps telling me about. He keeps saying that you are the mad scientist building all sorts of things and always at the bleeding edge. So Demoo, Stablecraft.

What are you building? What are you doing? So I fell down the five coating rabbit hole about four or five months ago. I actually have to give credit to Derek Ross from, like, the soapbox and Shakespeare team because he posted a hour long video on how to start vibe coding. I watched that Mhmm.

Four times over a weekend. I've been addicted ever since. So I've spent the past like five years picking up all these pieces of podcasting two point zero. And now that I

figured out vibe coding, I'm able to actually put those into use. I've got little bots and stuff I built. I think one of the first projects I did was if you send a boost in fountain, it posts to Noster,

which I really like, which kind of helps with that growing your audience stuff and people can interact with it. What if I don't use Fountain all the time and I want to build my own? So I did that. It basically ties into my Lightning node running Albie Hub and HeliPad

and just reads that and posts an Oster. So I kind of saw something I wanted that I wish I had that didn't exist. So I build it and kind of realized I could do other stuff. So kind of like the main thing I've been doing is I've been really into the DMU value for value music,

value verse, whatever you want to call it. But there's a band in the space called the Dorfels. D O E R. Yeah. F E L. Yeah, I know them. They've been around like since we started this whole music thing. It's all self hosted. I mean, it's about as DIY as you could get.

And I've actually been cohosting. They have a podcast into the Dorfal verse. This whole podcasting two point o music stuff actually brought their band back to life in a way. So they're like a family band of like 10 kids. They have this whole back catalog, but they still want to own it and they didn't want to put it on Spotify or anything.

So they kind of came across the two point zero stuff. They've been self hosting, but that means people have to use podcast apps to listen to their music. Those don't make good music players. So I teamed up with them and actually built them their own music player. Nice. If you go to itdv.podtards.com.

Podtards is like my URL and they didn't set up a redirect. So that's what that's what they get until. So it's yeah, that's nice. You chuckling is that's how I know people. Those are the people that are interested in it. Anyhow, you can also get to it from their website. I built them a music app that they've always wanted.

So like if you go there, it has all their music and some of their like family's

music, like some of the brothers have their own projects and stuff. And it's just, I mean, it's just bare bones. It pulls in from all their RSS feeds. So like any art you see on that show, any descriptions on the site, you can send boost through it and stuff, it's all set up. I don't know.

Like I've been taking a bunch of pieces I have and just building little bots and I built this music site for them and it works well on web, mobile. It's a PWA, so you won't find it like in the app store or whatever, but it works pretty well on there. So then I took what I learned there and built stablecraft.app

and that's Kraft K R A F T. And that is kind of what I did for the Dorfos, but on steroids. So there's a music podcast out that go through this catalog of

value for value music people put up. They comb through it. They put a show out each week, every other week, once a month, whenever they have time, and they play this tracks. And you can support the artist through those podcasts using all this cool podcasting two point zero stuff.

So I took those shows, pulled out all of their tracks they played, and built stable craft. App from that. So it's like taking the catalog and all the two years of crowdsourcing, crammed all that into one Frankenstein of an app. And it's just a music player, but it's something that, like the podcasting two point o community

doesn't have. A couple of people have been working on music apps too. That's kind of been my obsession for the past couple months. I kind of saw a niche that kind of needs some attention. It's a lot more fun building stuff than complaining about it on the internet. Yeah. I like that. It's really cool, Chad.

Thanks. Really cool. I've learned a lot. I know how to use GitHub now. There go. Yeah. I know a lot more about RSS feeds

because I'm actually, like, looking at them now because vibe coding is kind of the hot thing right now. But, like you can vibe code an app, but it's like nothing no one's really going to want to use and it's not going to stick around. Pairing that with like the knowledge I have of the two point zero stuff.

I think I built some really cool apps with it. So it's like my whole two point o experience has kind of got me to like where I am now. Like, I just happened to listen to No Agenda fifteen years ago, and here I am now on a podcast talking about podcasting.

That's very cool. It's very cool. Actually, just building,

like you say, stop complaining, start building. And I think that's a great attitude to have. I think this is probably a good point to close things up. I think we definitely have to do another one in the future and see how things are going maybe six months, a year down the line. I've really enjoyed this.

And I just wanna say to both of you, thank you very much for what you do and for always being there on the bleeding edge and pushing this stuff forward. We appreciate what you're doing on Governmental Misfits. And, yeah, it's been a pleasure to have you both on. And to you as well, Max. Love your show. It's very well done and detailed.

Everybody that works on it as well. Jordan, Mr. Crown, it's very cool. Thank you. Yeah. This was fun. I enjoyed being on. I'm just out here trying to show this stuff and trying to make podcasting better. Yeah. So I started listening to Ungirl and Misfits a couple of years ago, kind of dropped off.

And Jordan hit me up one day, letting me know, like, you guys were doing more two point o stuff. I kind of him and I have kind of chatted back and forth and kind of bounced some ideas off of each other. And so it's cool just seeing people jumping in and building with the two point zero stuff and trying to keep podcasting independent

while also pushing it forward. Yeah, we've got quite an incredible team. Actually, I'm very, very lucky to have the people around me that I do, and this stuff just would not happen without them. So thank you to all the Uncoverable crew for making all of this possible. It's very much appreciated.

Cool. Well, we'll close things out. I'll let my old mate, John, pull the plug. We pull the plug in five, four, three, two, one. Stay ungovernable.